Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




HTBH
01-12-2020, 03:46 PM
Looking at the recently released secondary vacation weeks available...

I'm trying to make sense of the numbers.

Obviously, (like pretty much every category) there are basically no weeks available from April until November.

But here's my main confusion. If you add up the secondary vacation weeks available for the entire year, it comes out to 160 total. My category has 197 pilots in it. So where do the last 37 pilots in category get their vacation? And that doesn't even include pilots bidding their third or fourth vacation week.

It is a junior category with a lot of fairly new hires. Maybe they don't get a full two weeks and they combine the left over days. But even with that the numbers seem low.

HTBH

HTBH


MoonShot
01-12-2020, 03:48 PM
Looking at the recently released secondary vacation weeks available...

I'm trying to make sense of the numbers.

Obviously, (like pretty much every category) there are basically no weeks available from April until November.

But here's my main confusion. If you add up the secondary vacation weeks available for the entire year, it comes out to 160 total. My category has 197 pilots in it. So where do the last 37 pilots in category get their vacation? And that doesn't even include pilots bidding their third or fourth vacation week.

I'm sure there's a simple answer if someone could let me know. But it doesn't make sense.

HTBH

Some guys will bid all their vacation in a row during Primary bids.

Go Cards go
01-12-2020, 03:59 PM
Looking at the recently released secondary vacation weeks available...

I'm trying to make sense of the numbers.

Obviously, (like pretty much every category) there are basically no weeks available from April until November.

But here's my main confusion. If you add up the secondary vacation weeks available for the entire year, it comes out to 160 total. My category has 197 pilots in it. So where do the last 37 pilots in category get their vacation? And that doesn't even include pilots bidding their third or fourth vacation week.

It is a junior category with a lot of fairly new hires. Maybe they don't get a full two weeks and they combine the left over days. But even with that the numbers seem low.

HTBH

HTBH
Depending on when they were hired, many of those guys could have less than 2 or even less than 1 week available.


Redbird611
01-12-2020, 04:23 PM
Some guys will bid all their vacation in a row during Primary bids.


This. One senior guy could take 4-5 summer weeks in PVAC round so long as theyíre strung together. Thatíll reduce the number of bidders for SVAC and beyond.

HTBH
01-12-2020, 04:52 PM
This. One senior guy could take 4-5 summer weeks in PVAC round so long as theyíre strung together. Thatíll reduce the number of bidders for SVAC and beyond.

Got it. Doesn't impact me this year but great info for future vacation bidding. Need to reread the PWA and Scheduling Reference Handbook on that stuff. I thought each week was allocated separately. Good info, Thanks.

Go Cards go
01-12-2020, 05:08 PM
Got it. Doesn't impact me this year but great info for future vacation bidding. Need to reread the PWA and Scheduling Reference Handbook on that stuff. I thought each week was allocated separately. Good info, Thanks.

Basically if thereís one week you really want, bid it in the primary round. It probably wonít be there for round two (unless itís in February, then maybe).

PilotWombat
01-12-2020, 06:21 PM
Is it possible to go back and see how many weeks were available in round 1? I didn't pay that much attention to what was available, I just bid what I wanted. Seeing what's left, I'm curious what was taken.

Han Solo
01-17-2020, 03:07 AM
Are the extra sick-leave vacation days showing up under "show individual vacation days to bid" in icrew? I thought I had 5 carry over PB days plus 1 the day from my categories SL performance but I'm only showing 5 extra vacation days as of now.

3 green
01-17-2020, 03:13 AM
After the primary bid, there is not much left to bid...It forces everyone to have vacation in the winter months which is what the company wants. Have everyone on vacation when they do not need pilots..

GliderCFI
01-17-2020, 03:18 PM
After the primary bid, there is not much left to bid...It forces everyone to have vacation in the winter months which is what the company wants. Have everyone on vacation when they do not need pilots..

Better off to take your Feb vacation then drop IVDs on em all summer. Just start pulling them off of whichever week(s) you don't want.

Han Solo
01-18-2020, 04:38 AM
Better off to take your Feb vacation then drop IVDs on em all summer. Just start pulling them off of whichever week(s) you don't want.

You can only IVD twice per vacation year, so "all summer" is a bit excessive. I'd love to get unlimited IVDs then just throw a week or two at March every year.

Abouttime2fish
01-18-2020, 05:27 AM
Wonder if this is a play to get pilot group on board with selling back vaca. In my mind the only big argument for it is when you are jr in category (I am), you get crap weeks that mean nothing anyway. I stack trips such that I basically work a week on week off, vacation while kids are in school? Use some Ivdís as mentioned, the rest just get in the way of adjusting my schedule.

before the hate posts come, I donít think we should be able to sell back the vaca. The real answer is fixing vaca so we can all get at least a week of something decent.

Herkflyr
01-18-2020, 05:55 AM
Wonder if this is a play to get pilot group on board with selling back vaca. In my mind the only big argument for it is when you are jr in category (I am), you get crap weeks that mean nothing anyway. I stack trips such that I basically work a week on week off, vacation while kids are in school? Use some Ivdís as mentioned, the rest just get in the way of adjusting my schedule.



before the hate posts come, I donít think we should be able to sell back the vaca. The real answer is fixing vaca so we can all get at least a week of something decent.Repeat after me, and often. "IVD...up to four days...and you can use APD priority with reserve numbers to use... four days of Feb vacation can often turn into four days of July..."

Rooster435
01-18-2020, 06:18 AM
Repeat after me, and often. "IVD...up to four days...and you can use APD priority with reserve numbers to use... four days of Feb vacation can often turn into four days of July..."

Actually 1 day of Feb vacation can turn into 4 days off in July. And if you are in one of those categories that got extra vacation days from the sick leave incentive you get an extra IVD or 2 as well. 14 K 4

crewdawg
01-18-2020, 07:13 AM
You can only IVD twice per vacation year, so "all summer" is a bit excessive. I'd love to get unlimited IVDs then just throw a week or two at March every year.

This last week of March was perfect this year. 4 days in this vacation year and 3 in the next vacation year. I plan on using those 4 days as IVDs sometime in the summer.

Funk
01-18-2020, 08:21 AM
It might also be worth mentioning to new hires that buying vacation days through the full service bank is another way of banking away hours at new hire pay and then drawing it out at the higher rate once second year pay is in effect.

MJP27
01-18-2020, 08:23 AM
It might also be worth mentioning to new hires that buying vacation days through the full service bank is another way of banking away hours at new hire pay and then drawing it out at the higher rate once second year pay is in effect.

This ^^^^^

SideSticker
01-18-2020, 09:02 AM
We should demand summer vacations for everyone.

Abouttime2fish
01-18-2020, 11:21 AM
Repeat after me, and often. "IVD...up to four days...and you can use APD priority with reserve numbers to use... four days of Feb vacation can often turn into four days of July..."
but not 12n days. Which also means you canít take from the end of any vacation that has 12n days. I like and use ivdís but they are not as great as you are pushing. Why we canít use a 12n day is beyond me, I just know it didnít work last summer. Couldnít even put it in the request. No I didnít call anyone.

Rooster435
01-18-2020, 11:24 AM
but not 12n days. Which also means you canít take from the end of any vacation that has 12n days. I like and use ivdís but they are not as great as you are pushing. Why we canít use a 12n day is beyond me, I just know it didnít work last summer. Couldnít even put it in the request. No I didnít call anyone.

You sure about that? Iím pretty sure Iíve used both my supp and vacation bank days to IVD.

Abouttime2fish
01-18-2020, 11:52 AM
I tried it wouldnít let me. Full disclosure, it was 7 days vaca, followed by 10 12n days, 1 sup day, the last 6 in November, the rest October. Was trying to pull days end of oct bid period to use as IVD. Icrew said no.

LeineLodge
01-18-2020, 12:36 PM
Also worth mentioning you can IVD a trip of any length. So 1 IVD can drop a 7 day trip. Do that twice and you have July off. Make it back elsewhere.

GliderCFI
01-18-2020, 12:55 PM
You can only IVD twice per vacation year, so "all summer" is a bit excessive. I'd love to get unlimited IVDs then just throw a week or two at March every year.
Well dropping 2-3 at a time, once in June, once in July....that's all summer enough.

MJP27
01-18-2020, 07:58 PM
You sure about that? Iím pretty sure Iíve used both my supp and vacation bank days to IVD.

You are correct. I have done the same for the past 2 years. Easy peasy......

sailingfun
01-19-2020, 04:13 AM
Also worth mentioning you can IVD a trip of any length. So 1 IVD can drop a 7 day trip. Do that twice and you have July off. Make it back elsewhere.

That is the beauty of IVDís. Bid one summer week off and IVD two more weeks off. 3 weeks of summer vacation!

RonRicco
01-19-2020, 04:29 AM
I am up to 5 weeks and like to actually use my vacations even if they are in the winter. Kids have winter break and other days off I try and match up with vacation. I can always find something to do that I enjoy more than work over a vacay.

Disclaimer. I do typically get my first choice for summer vacation. I also understand that many pilots donít get even a week in the summer and that needs to change. (Thank goodness for IVD). I just cringe when I see that just because a vacation is in the winter, that the sellback word pops up.

notEnuf
01-19-2020, 06:26 AM
12 years at Delta and no summer vacation. I thought this would be the year but... PD, IVD and APD are the only way anyone below 20% relative seniority is getting one. The reduction this year was the most drastic of the last 10. And to think we had massive KLOAs in the summer of 18. This is treating your people right? Just wait until contract time. Oh, thatís right. 😏

Buck Rogers
01-19-2020, 08:16 AM
12 years at Delta and no summer vacation. I thought this would be the year but... PD, IVD and APD are the only way anyone below 20% relative seniority is getting one. The reduction this year was the most drastic of the last 10. And to think we had massive KLOAs in the summer of 18. This is treating your people right? Just wait until contract time. Oh, thatís right. 😏


So, with 12 years did you chose to bid into the bottom 20% in category ?......if so, why? Do you know QOL is directly related to senority....ie BES? ....there are wide body FO weeks available on the 777 in ATL in May,Jul, and Aug and in Lax in Jun and Aug....alas the 350B are sold out in Jun, Jul, and Aug....don't bid that if you are gonna be uber junior ......JMHO

crewdawg
01-19-2020, 09:22 AM
So, with 12 years did you chose to bid into the bottom 20% in category ?

I think he means TOP 20%...or at least that's the way I read it. Bottom 20% would be 80% relative seniority.

Buck Rogers
01-19-2020, 10:14 AM
I think he means TOP 20%...or at least that's the way I read it. Bottom 20% would be 80% relative seniority.

Gotcha... if that's the case my apologies....and that indeed would be Richarded up. If the other way, then....maybe surprising but certainly not unexpected.

iaflyer
01-19-2020, 05:21 PM
Disclaimer. I do typically get my first choice for summer vacation. I also understand that many pilots donít get even a week in the summer and that needs to change. (Thank goodness for IVD). I just cringe when I see that just because a vacation is in the winter, that the sellback word pops up.I understand the perils of being able to sell back vacation. However, with kids in school having vacation weeks available in October or February doesn't really allow for using the vacation to go anywhere, or do anything vacation-like at home with them. Of course, there are pilots without kids or kids out of the house that can utilize vacations at less popular times of the year, but I'm sure they like vacationing in the summer too.

It's what it is. That's why PD, APD, IVD are all great mechanisms for getting the time off when you want.

SideSticker
01-20-2020, 09:28 AM
News Flash- Your kids don't care if you a Capt or FO, they dont care what you fly, But they do care if you make it to their track meet, soccer game, scout camping trip, school play, star student award ceremony (dont ask), class trip, birthday party, hockey tournament, etc etc etc. Everything has a price. Do your due diligence and live with your decision.

hockeypilot44
01-22-2020, 05:20 AM
News Flash- Your kids don't care if you a Capt or FO, they dont care what you fly, But they do care if you make it to their track meet, soccer game, scout camping trip, school play, star student award ceremony (dont ask), class trip, birthday party, hockey tournament, etc etc etc. Everything has a price. Do your due diligence and live with your decision.

I agree with you. I won't even consider bidding anything below 40 percent in category until my kids don't care anymore. Life is too short to live at work. A divorce will wipe out all your extra earnings anyway. You don't have to miss everything as an airline pilot. That's a choice when we're hiring 1000 per year. All that being said, 12 years later, I'm a narrow body first officer who has never been to Europe.

PilotWombat
01-22-2020, 11:49 AM
So I just want to make sure I understand how IVD's work (gosh that's too close to IUD's...)

If I use two IVD's to drop, say, a 4 day, I get paid 7.5 hrs (7 hrs, depending on how many vacation days I have) and nothing else? I can't pull from any other vacation days to recoup the pay lost from that rotation?

Broncos
01-22-2020, 04:20 PM
So I just want to make sure I understand how IVD's work (gosh that's too close to IUD's...)

If I use two IVD's to drop, say, a 4 day, I get paid 7.5 hrs (7 hrs, depending on how many vacation days I have) and nothing else? I can't pull from any other vacation days to recoup the pay lost from that rotation?

Correct. It's really just an extra APD, and you are shifting vacation pay from a future date to the present. But still, it's a very powerful tool and was one of the better things to come out of our last contract.

notEnuf
01-22-2020, 05:36 PM
So I just want to make sure I understand how IVD's work (gosh that's too close to IUD's...)

If I use two IVD's to drop, say, a 4 day, I get paid 7.5 hrs (7 hrs, depending on how many vacation days I have) and nothing else? I can't pull from any other vacation days to recoup the pay lost from that rotation?

No. You have up to 4 days and 2 opportunities. Normally they will pull days and time from a latter vacation block. At your request, you can use vacation bank time to cover the pay and credit of the dropped trip of any length. This is an alternative and must be requested through crew scheduling. This is the same process as using vacation bank time to cover APD and PD at the pilots request.

SideSticker
01-23-2020, 03:04 AM
I agree with you. I won't even consider bidding anything below 40 percent in category until my kids don't care anymore. Life is too short to live at work. A divorce will wipe out all your extra earnings anyway. You don't have to miss everything as an airline pilot. That's a choice when we're hiring 1000 per year. All that being said, 12 years later, I'm a narrow body first officer who has never been to Europe.
Europe will still be there when you are ready to do it.

GliderCFI
01-23-2020, 04:22 AM
Trying to remember... If you're single IVD dropping a 4 day, does only the IVD day require 25% required staffing for the entire trip to drop? Or does the entire trip require full coverage?

3 green
01-23-2020, 04:37 AM
I look at IVD's just like an APD..If I'm not mistaken, you can go back and buy the vacation day back after you use it for an IVD. It basically gives you 3 APD's per year.

Gunfighter
01-23-2020, 04:45 AM
News Flash- Your kids don't care if you a Capt or FO, they dont care what you fly, But they do care if you make it to their track meet, soccer game, scout camping trip, school play, star student award ceremony (dont ask), class trip, birthday party, hockey tournament, etc etc etc. Everything has a price. Do your due diligence and live with your decision.


I agree with you. I won't even consider bidding anything below 40 percent in category until my kids don't care anymore. Life is too short to live at work. A divorce will wipe out all your extra earnings anyway. You don't have to miss everything as an airline pilot. That's a choice when we're hiring 1000 per year. All that being said, 12 years later, I'm a narrow body first officer who has never been to Europe.


At the risk of giving advice to someone who may be senior to me, you don't need to be 40% to have a life outside of Delta. As a 12yr FO, I've been to Europe, Asia and South America more than ATL. It's not because I prefer international, it's because a junior WB FO has a better schedule than a senior NB FO. Life can be pretty good at 80% on a WB. I've also been to countless events for band, football, birthdays, holidays, etc... I've eaten Turkey on Thanksgiving day and opened presents with my children on 12/25 for most of the last decade. We even have several great NYE memories combined with great summer vacations. Proper staffing and minimal optimizer impact, combined with above average PBS and PCS skills will give you plenty of options.


When your daily average credit is 6+ hours instead of 5:15, you work less days for the same hours. An 80 hour month is 13 days vs 15, so you are already two days ahead. That one week of summer vacation you paid for with 40% seniority comes for free when you are working 2-3 days less every month of the summer. When your pay rate is 10-20% higher, you can cut back on the number of hours. The WB fleets are staffed so that you can generally drop trips. If that isn't an option, the P2P drops work well. Keeping a buffer in the FSB can even out the cashflow if that is a concern.

180ToAJ
01-23-2020, 05:18 AM
I tried reading the PWA and failed. Iím 99% sure this is correct, but I just wanted to verify. Vacation accrual occurs by the years you have completed before April 1st. The pilot hired 3/15/2015 this year gets 3 weeks of vacation and those hired 4/6/15 get 2 weeks. Earning a prorated portion only applies to the first year. Those hired 4/6/15 donít get 6 days of supplemental or anything, right?

crewdawg
01-23-2020, 05:28 AM
I tried reading the PWA and failed. I’m 99% sure this is correct, but I just wanted to verify. Vacation accrual occurs by the years you have completed before April 1st. The pilot hired 3/15/2015 this year gets 3 weeks of vacation and those hired 4/6/15 get 2 weeks. Earning a prorated portion only applies to the first year. Those hired 4/6/15 don’t get 6 days of supplemental or anything, right?

The way I read it is 1April of the year you start the accrual, so you would have had to completed 5 years by 1April19 to get the third week. Maybe I'm wrong and I need to call the union, but I'm a late 2014 hire and I still only got 2 weeks of vacation. So ya, I'll be on 7th year pay when I finally get my 3rd week. Which I won't even get because I'm deploying this year and will be docked a few days, which means I'll lose my ability to bid that third week...so 8th year pay lol. Also, I'll be deployed during bidding next year, so when I get back I'll get the scraps of what's left over and HOPE for a move up. So I got that going for me, which is nice... :D

Buck Rogers
01-23-2020, 05:35 AM
The way I read it is 1April of the year you start the accrual, so you would have had to completed 5 years by 1April19 to get the third week. Maybe I'm wrong and I need to call the union, but I'm a late 2014 hire and I still only got 2 weeks of vacation. So ya, I'll be on 7th year pay when I finally get my 3rd week. Which I won't even get because I'm deploying this year and will be docked a few days, which means I'll lose my ability to bid that third week...so 8th year pay lol. Also, I'll be deployed during bidding next year, so when I get back I'll get the scraps of what's left over and HOPE for a move up. So I got that going for me, which is nice... :D


If you don't bid....crew scheduling has a hierarchy of order where they give you the bestest available...ie Christmas, summer,Thanksgiving etc. If it is really important, I suggest hiring a bidding service for those 2 months to process your vacation bids if you don't have a wife or friend that can do it for you. (seems like a good expense of $50 if you care even the slightest about vacay)

crewdawg
01-23-2020, 05:37 AM
At the risk of giving advice to someone who may be senior to me, you don't need to be 40% to have a life outside of Delta....

Silence! :D

ebl14
01-23-2020, 05:39 AM
How early or late can you drop a trip with the IVD method?

crewdawg
01-23-2020, 05:41 AM
If you don't bid....crew scheduling has a hierarchy of order where they give you the bestest available...ie Christmas, summer,Thanksgiving etc. If it is really important, I suggest hiring a bidding service for those 2 months to process your bids if you don't have a wife or friend that can do it for you.

That is correct wrt PBS and I have no problems with line bidding. I'm talking vacation bidding. When we're out on mloa over vacation bidding, we lose all ability to bid for vacation, even if we're coming back before the vacation year.

Buck Rogers
01-23-2020, 05:43 AM
That is correct wrt PBS and I have no problems with line bidding. I'm talking vacation bidding. When we're out on mloa over vacation bidding, we lose all ability to bid for vacation, even if we're coming back before the vacation year.


Gothca...because I was a quitter, I wasn't aware of that.

BTW....weren't you looking for a reason to retire a few weeks ago?

Might add this to the list(if I remember correctly, if it wasn't you, disregard)

crewdawg
01-23-2020, 05:50 AM
BTW....weren't you looking for a reason to retire a few weeks ago?

Might add this to the list(if I remember correctly, if it wasn't you, disregard)

I'm always looking for a reason to retire. If you're talking from the military, yes I am more than ready. I'm just not getting this close to 20 and NOT getting a retirement from uncle sam. Almost there!

Gunfighter
01-23-2020, 07:05 AM
Silence! :D
Crap, I accidentally hit "Post" instead of "Delete".

I meant to say missing my children's events, family birthdays, anniversary and holidays was completely worth it for the 2 hour double bus ride bag shuffle combo in CDG every weekend. The only thing good about being junior on a WB is that you avoid weekend traffic on layovers. On a 4 day trip to SYD there is only one night in a bed, the other two are spent in a rest facility reminiscent of a homeless person in a cardboard box. Don't even get me started on Malaria, Bird Flu and third world security issues.

PilotWombat
01-23-2020, 09:31 AM
Correct. It's really just an extra APD, and you are shifting vacation pay from a future date to the present. But still, it's a very powerful tool and was one of the better things to come out of our last contract.

Normally they will pull days and time from a latter vacation block. At your request, you can use vacation bank time to cover the pay and credit of the dropped trip of any length.

I guess I'm getting confused between the difference between the "vacation bank" and a "vacation week". A vacation week is just your vacation bank converted into days?

What are the ways to add hours to your vacation bank outside of the vacation bid? I see that you can buy them from your full service bank (12.N days), if the company reroutes you into an awarded vacation (7.F.8), and converting payback days (23.S.14?). Are there others?

notEnuf
01-23-2020, 01:54 PM
Buy, converted PB days (bad deal) and normal allotment are how you get vacation days and vacation bank time. How you use the vacation bank time outside of normal vacation can be vey useful.

StartngOvr
01-24-2020, 04:46 AM
I tried reading the PWA and failed. Iím 99% sure this is correct, but I just wanted to verify. Vacation accrual occurs by the years you have completed before April 1st. The pilot hired 3/15/2015 this year gets 3 weeks of vacation and those hired 4/6/15 get 2 weeks. Earning a prorated portion only applies to the first year. Those hired 4/6/15 donít get 6 days of supplemental or anything, right?



The pilot hired 3/15/2015 has only completed five continuous years of service, therefore gets only two weeks. You have to have completed six years of service to get the third week. See PWA 7.B.1.

Regarding proration, you are correct. That only applies to the first (partial) year of employment.

An analogous example to yours would be that a pilot hired 03/15/2014 (6 years, 15 days of continuous employment) gets three weeks but the pilot hired 4/6/2014 (5 years, 341 days of continuous employment) gets only two weeks.

This all assumes no unpaid leaves like MLOA.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

Sputnik
01-24-2020, 09:39 AM
Unpaid leaves?

You mean because you don't accrue vacation on unpaid leave? Or something worse?

StartngOvr
01-24-2020, 10:56 AM
Unpaid leaves?



You mean because you don't accrue vacation on unpaid leave? Or something worse?



For leaves longer than 30 days, no. For example, if you take three months personal leave to go hike the Appalachian trail or something, you would not be accruing time towards ďyears of continuous employment.Ē See PWA 7.A.1. Mil leave might be different, I do not know.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro