Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Considering Envoy


Monass74
01-13-2020, 05:50 PM
Good Evening Folks,
I was considering Envoy for the flow. Howís the reserve time on the 145 and the 175 ? Do i have a chance to get the 175 especially that theyíre getting new ones this year ? Iíve heard talks about reserve system being not that good, is that true ? Also how many hours can you make on reserve (iím a person willing to fly alot) ? And the captain upgrade times ?
Thanks in advance


povertyeagle
01-13-2020, 06:08 PM
Good evening

rkd19
01-13-2020, 06:56 PM
Who cares you're basically pretty much already American


smtx123
01-13-2020, 07:02 PM
Good Evening Folks,
I was considering Envoy for the flow. Howís the reserve time on the 145 and the 175 ? Do i have a chance to get the 175 especially that theyíre getting new ones this year ? Iíve heard talks about reserve system being not that good, is that true ? Also how many hours can you make on reserve (iím a person willing to fly alot) ? And the captain upgrade times ?
Thanks in advance

As said in previous posts, reserve time fluctuates monthly. By the time youíre here on the line it will all be different. The last class had 15 175s and 8 145s. Usually if youíre a cadet or older in age then you have a very high chance of getting 175. Reserve is overall not great, if you commute it sucks the life out of you. If you live in base, itís not too bad. Again hours flown on reserve fluctuates, as it depends on where youíre at on the list and how well staffed the base is. I remember flying 30ish hours on rsv when I started. CA upgrade times are currently whenever you can reach 1000 hrs 121 time. If you come in with 1000 hrs 121, should be able to upgrade very quickly. If you donít have the time and have to build it here, expect around two years.

Monass74
01-13-2020, 07:26 PM
Who cares you're basically pretty much already American

Average flow time now is 7-8 years, so iím going to be stay there for a while and if QOL isnít good there and iíll be staying forever on reserve not flying then itís not worth it.

Monass74
01-13-2020, 07:31 PM
As said in previous posts, reserve time fluctuates monthly. By the time youíre here on the line it will all be different. The last class had 15 175s and 8 145s. Usually if youíre a cadet or older in age then you have a very high chance of getting 175. Reserve is overall not great, if you commute it sucks the life out of you. If you live in base, itís not too bad. Again hours flown on reserve fluctuates, as it depends on where youíre at on the list and how well staffed the base is. I remember flying 30ish hours on rsv when I started. CA upgrade times are currently whenever you can reach 1000 hrs 121 time. If you come in with 1000 hrs 121, should be able to upgrade very quickly. If you donít have the time and have to build it here, expect around two years.

iím neither a cadet nor that old (mid 20s). I know the numbers fluctuate but what would you say the average reserve time is ? Like 1+ year ? Do you think itís worth to wait +7 years for it ? Is it a work friendly environment?

rkd19
01-13-2020, 07:40 PM
Average flow time now is 7-8 years, so iím going to be stay there for a while and if QOL isnít good there and iíll be staying forever on reserve not flying then itís not worth it.

This is why dacuj does propaganda like he does, cadets take him seriously

smtx123
01-13-2020, 08:25 PM
iím neither a cadet nor that old (mid 20s). I know the numbers fluctuate but what would you say the average reserve time is ? Like 1+ year ? Do you think itís worth to wait +7 years for it ? Is it a work friendly environment?

I can only speak for dfw 175, current line holder has been here for 9 months. maybe some other guys can chime in on their fleets. Iíd say expect close to a year at this point. Iíd say the flow is good for creating guaranteed movement, so as long as AA is hiring, at least 20 a month are leaving, moving you up. I donít plan on staying for the flow, but anything can happen in this industry.

UncreativeUser
01-13-2020, 09:07 PM
I can only speak for dfw 175, current line holder has been here for 9 months. maybe some other guys can chime in on their fleets. Iíd say expect close to a year at this point. Iíd say the flow is good for creating guaranteed movement, so as long as AA is hiring, at least 20 a month are leaving, moving you up. I donít plan on staying for the flow, but anything can happen in this industry.



A year for reserve in dfw? I disagree, my buddy got awarded a solid line for two months now and was hired around 8 months ago. Maybe heís lucky idk but heís held a consistent line so far


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NoValueAviator
01-14-2020, 06:56 PM
So you flow to AA and get stuck 2-5 years junior to 15000 people the same age as you or younger who won't quit until forced to, probably by mandatory retirement. Now what's your plan? The ship on the flow has sailed my friend. In my opinion it sailed in 2017.

Monass74
01-14-2020, 07:02 PM
So you flow to AA and get stuck 2-5 years junior to 15000 people the same age as you or younger who won't quit until forced to, probably by mandatory retirement. Now what's your plan? The ship on the flow has sailed my friend. In my opinion it sailed in 2017.

So youíre saying the flow is useless at the moment ?

NoValueAviator
01-14-2020, 07:05 PM
So you’re saying the flow is useless at the moment ?
Well, if you're unhireable at the majors without it then it may still be very valuable. The idea of having a seat at AA and having a good career without having to stress about getting hired like you would at any other regional is gone though. Starting at Envoy now, the flow as it currently exists will drop you right behind the biggest retirement/hiring spree likely to occur in our lifetime and you'll spend your whole career very junior. So you'll be frantically trying to get hired by a major here just like everyone at SkyWest, Republic, Endeavor, etc. etc., only they'll be making a lot more money and enjoying higher QOL mostly from superior work rules/soft pay.

Monass74
01-14-2020, 07:14 PM
Well, if you're unhireable at the majors without it then it may still be very valuable. The idea of having a seat at AA and having a good career without having to stress about getting hired like you would at any other regional is gone though. Starting at Envoy now, the flow as it currently exists will drop you right behind the biggest retirement/hiring spree likely to occur in our lifetime and you'll spend your whole career very junior. So you'll be frantically trying to get hired here just like everyone at SkyWest, Republic, Endeavor, etc. etc., only they'll be making a lot more money and enjoying higher QOL mostly from superior work rules/soft pay.

So itís staying junior and not having to worry about being hired by majors (although i would be the junior of juniors there for a long time) vs. elevating through a ďbetterĒ regional and having a better QOL but staying worried about my future with majors. This is where making a decision becomes so hard ! 😄

NoValueAviator
01-14-2020, 07:26 PM
Yeah, I came here and see it as a mistake. Although it would be an even bigger mistake to leave now. The flow could change to be valuable again, too. Who knows. Good luck with your very difficult decision.

Monass74
01-14-2020, 07:37 PM
Yeah, I came here and see it as a mistake. Although it would be an even bigger mistake to leave now. The flow could change to be valuable again, too. Who knows. Good luck with your very difficult decision.

Thanks, may i ask what made you regret your decision? The thing that makes me hesitant the most about Envoy is itís reserve time and the flying hours you get on reserve. Especially since i would be getting 145 90% chance since iím neither a candidate nor that old.

dera
01-14-2020, 07:57 PM
Thanks, may i ask what made you regret your decision? The thing that makes me hesitant the most about Envoy is itís reserve time and the flying hours you get on reserve. Especially since i would be getting 145 90% chance since iím neither a candidate nor that old.

You need to look further down the line than just your first 2-10 months after IOE on reserve.
First 12 months off IOE, you'll get anywhere from 300 to 1000 hours. And you'll spend somewhere around 2 to 10 months on reserve. All depends on luck, timing, and luck. Last classes have been heavy on the 175. Next class might be 100% 175 or 100% 145, no-one knows.
That's what people mean when they say it's like two airlines. It really is. The 175 side is sweet. People on the 145 are much less happy. Unless they live in base. Then they don't complain much.

It is not a bad place if you live in base. I don't see many reasons to commute for Envoy.

pitchattitude
01-14-2020, 10:09 PM
You need to look further down the line than just your first 2-10 months after IOE on reserve.
First 12 months off IOE, you'll get anywhere from 300 to 1000 hours. And you'll spend somewhere around 2 to 10 months on reserve. All depends on luck, timing, and luck. Last classes have been heavy on the 175. Next class might be 100% 175 or 100% 145, no-one knows.
That's what people mean when they say it's like two airlines. It really is. The 175 side is sweet. People on the 145 are much less happy. Unless they live in base. Then they don't complain much.

It is not a bad place if you live in base. I don't see many reasons to commute for Envoy.
Timing really is everything. Some of it is predictable and some is not. There are more lines in the summer. The month of December also has a slight uptick for the winter. If you finish IOE in mid April or more likely mid May, you might hit things just as the lines are increasing and that wave and the seniority you gain over the summer will keep you with a line. By contrast if you finish in late November, too late to bid for December, you get reserve for December, then the lines go down in January through April. So even though you gain seniority itís not enough to outpace the drop in lines until May. Something much less predictable is the movement of flying between bases and the bid cycle and where the company parks people. That can have a big impact on staffing and how many are on reserve somewhere.

The next rub comes with the forced upgrade. You fly a lot as a FO, so you upgrade before your peers and if you were an FO on the 175, that likely means getting bumped to the 145 involuntarily. If you choose to not accept the lock so you can bid back to the 175, that probably happens about the time you COULD have started holding a line in the 145. But if you want back on the SNJ, it means back to reserve for a while.

Tyrion
01-14-2020, 10:33 PM
You need to look further down the line than just your first 2-10 months after IOE on reserve.
First 12 months off IOE, you'll get anywhere from 300 to 1000 hours. And you'll spend somewhere around 2 to 10 months on reserve.

First 12 months off of IOE, you won't get anywhere near 1000 hours, but 300 is probably likely, especially on the 145. How long you spend on reserve is more a factor on which base you want.

Reserve and low time lines are just the facts of life at The Envoy. With over 600 pilots on reserve, we have more pilots on reserve than other companies have total pilots. For the lineholders, there are 100s of lines that credit less than 75 hours, not ideal for building the resume.

Choosing a regional should really be about how will it get you to your end goal. If your goal is someplace like Spirit or JetBlue, your path should take you through a regional that will fly your butt off, upgrade, fly your butt off some more, and move on in 2 years. If you live in New York, Chicago, or Dallas, and you are okay with taking your time to go to AA in 5-7 years, then Envoy makes some sense.

dera
01-14-2020, 10:44 PM
Timing really is everything. Some of it is predictable and some is not. There are more lines in the summer. The month of December also has a slight uptick for the winter. If you finish IOE in mid April or more likely mid May, you might hit things just as the lines are increasing and that wave and the seniority you gain over the summer will keep you with a line. By contrast if you finish in late November, too late to bid for December, you get reserve for December, then the lines go down in January through April. So even though you gain seniority itís not enough to outpace the drop in lines until May. Something much less predictable is the movement of flying between bases and the bid cycle and where the company parks people. That can have a big impact on staffing and how many are on reserve somewhere.

The next rub comes with the forced upgrade. You fly a lot as a FO, so you upgrade before your peers and if you were an FO on the 175, that likely means getting bumped to the 145 involuntarily. If you choose to not accept the lock so you can bid back to the 175, that probably happens about the time you COULD have started holding a line in the 145. But if you want back on the SNJ, it means back to reserve for a while.

All of this comes down to one thing. If you commute, it all sucks. If you don't, it can be good.

You can fly like a mofo' on your year 1 if you get the 175, and if you get lucky with timing. That way you will get displaced to the 145. It's not bad as long as you don't commute (and don't live in MIA). Even as a CA, as of now every base(sans MIA) is attainable within the first 15-16 months from DOH. You might commute for a bit after displacement, but not for too long, before you get back to your domicile (as long as it's not MIA).

If you get the 145 initially, things flip around. You will start with hardly flying at all. And you will spend 8+ months, if you are lucky, on reserve. After you get a line, you will fly a lot more, but likely will need around 2.5 years post DOH before you hit your upgrade hours.
Now, here's the switch. The 145 guys can very likely hold 175 by the time they hit their hours. Or you can stay in NY or MIA if that's where you live.

Bottom line. It's not a bad gig if you don't commute. But if you don't live in DFW/ORD/NYC, why are you considering Envoy?
I excluded MIA from this, because who the heck knows what they are doing with that base. A new hire got awarded MIA FO last summer, and he is STILL the bottom on the list.

dera
01-14-2020, 10:47 PM
First 12 months off of IOE, you won't get anywhere near 1000 hours, but 300 is probably likely, especially on the 145. How long you spend on reserve is more a factor on which base you want.

Reserve and low time lines are just the facts of life at The Envoy. With over 600 pilots on reserve, we have more pilots on reserve than other companies have total pilots. For the lineholders, there are 100s of lines that credit less than 75 hours, not ideal for building the resume.

Choosing a regional should really be about how will it get you to your end goal. If your goal is someplace like Spirit or JetBlue, your path should take you through a regional that will fly your butt off, upgrade, fly your butt off some more, and move on in 2 years. If you live in New York, Chicago, or Dallas, and you are okay with taking your time to go to AA in 5-7 years, then Envoy makes some sense.

"especially on the 145" being the key point there. More 175 than 145 new hires lately. Do you feel lucky?
On the 175, close to 1000 12 months past IOE is doable. 145 not so much.

To your last comment. That's what I'm doing. Envoy has been the right choice.
YMMV.

Tyrion
01-14-2020, 11:27 PM
"especially on the 145" being the key point there. More 175 than 145 new hires lately. Do you feel lucky?
On the 175, close to 1000 12 months past IOE is doable. 145 not so much.

600 pilots on reserve means we have almost 1800 lineholders.

To your last comment. That's what I'm doing. Envoy has been the right choice.
YMMV.

Actually it is less than 1300 line holders. And a lot of those lines are less than 75 hours. You kids sure seem to have problems counting. The 500 pilot gap is filled by guy in training, loa's, mgmt, instructors, etc.

If you catch a growth wave just right, like you did in DFW on 175 and live local to pick up OT, sure you can get close to 1000 hours in a year. Enjoy the next year on reserve commuting to NY. Just realize that you are the exception. Guys hired ahead of you have just recently started becoming lineholders on the 145. Soon the bottom guy in DFW on the 175 will be like that bottom guy in Miami. All the growth and new deliveries are shifting to ORD. The DFW 175 FO story was good while it lasted, but the music is stopping.

dera
01-14-2020, 11:45 PM
Actually it is less than 1300 line holders. And a lot of those lines are less than 75 hours. You kids sure seem to have problems counting. The 500 pilot gap is filled by guy in training, loa's, mgmt, instructors, etc.

If you catch a growth wave just right, like you did in DFW on 175 and live local to pick up OT, sure you can get close to 1000 hours in a year. Enjoy the next year on reserve commuting to NY. Just realize that you are the exception. Guys hired ahead of you have just recently started becoming lineholders on the 145. Soon the bottom guy in DFW on the 175 will be like that bottom guy in Miami. All the growth and new deliveries are shifting to ORD. The DFW 175 FO story was good while it lasted, but the music is stopping.

I edited my post after you replied to it, we have 646 reserves and 1110 lineholders excluding CMP and RLF.
And no, I won't commute to NY for a year. You sure seem to have problems counting. I'm less than 200 numbers from junior DCE. And I'm still months away from the actual award.

Like I said, I got lucky. You might too. But it's not guaranteed. If you live in base, it's not a bad gig. Likely the best one there is in DFW.

Guys hired a few months after me are lineholders in DFE. Just FYI.

Tyrion
01-15-2020, 12:05 AM
I edited my post after you replied to it, we have 646 reserves and 1110 lineholders excluding CMP and RLF.
And no, I won't commute to NY for a year. You sure seem to have problems counting. I'm less than 200 numbers from junior DCE. And I'm still months away from the actual award.

Like I said, I got lucky. You might too. But it's not guaranteed. If you live in base, it's not a bad gig. Likely the best one there is in DFW.

Guys hired a few months after me are lineholders in DFE. Just FYI.

I guess you have problems reading, too. I said guys senior to you just recently became lineholders in DFE. There is an ebb and flow as their lineholder status depends on base transfers.

Good luck avoiding New York. Yes, right now, you are within 200 numbers of the DCE plug, but there is a gap between him and most of the guys on the reserve list. With 400+ FOs senior to him, he might get displaced out of DCE. Guys junior to him used to have DCL, until they were displaced. Just FYI.

dera
01-15-2020, 12:16 AM
I guess you have problems reading, too. I said guys senior to you just recently became lineholders in DFE. There is an ebb and flow as their lineholder status depends on base transfers.

Good luck avoiding New York. Yes, right now, you are within 200 numbers of the DCE plug, but there is a gap between him and most of the guys on the reserve list. With 400+ FOs senior to him, he might get displaced out of DCE. Guys junior to him used to have DCL, until they were displaced. Just FYI.

Guys junior to me are lineholders now. They were lineholders in December too. It took them around 10 months to hold a line. And things are about to get a lot better for them, with the 30 NFE-DFE transfers coming up soon.

There is no gap, not sure what you're looking at. Are you looking at DCL or DCE? Bottom of DCE is pretty consistent.
1610 1584 1561 1546 1499 1468 1419... None are displaced.
Where's the gap?

Tyrion
01-15-2020, 12:30 AM
Guys junior to me are lineholders now. They were lineholders in December too. It took them around 10 months to hold a line. And things are about to get a lot better for them, with the 30 NFE-DFE transfers coming up soon.

There is no gap, not sure what you're looking at. Are you looking at DCL or DCE? Bottom of DCE is pretty consistent.
1610 1584 1561 1546 1499 1468 1419... None are displaced.
Where's the gap?

Almost 200 numbers to move up 7 places... you don't think that is a gap? In this next award, if only 6 FOs displace to DCE more than the vacancies, you go from 200 away to 400 away. How long is that in terms of flow movement?

dera
01-15-2020, 12:50 AM
Almost 200 numbers to move up 7 places... you don't think that is a gap? In this next award, if only 6 FOs displace to DCE more than the vacancies, you go from 200 away to 400 away. How long is that in terms of flow movement?

No, it's not a gap.
200 numbers to move up 7 places, but 400 numbers to move up 14, 600 numbers for 21, and so on. That's a gradient, not a gap.

DCL has a gap, almost 300 numbers between last and second to last, but that's why the junior guys got displaced off it.
And according to you, NCE has a gap too. And that would be impossible because you just promised a year of commuting to NY.

You won't have any FOs displacing to DCE this time round, so your point is moot.

NoValueAviator
01-15-2020, 04:02 AM
Thanks, may i ask what made you regret your decision? The thing that makes me hesitant the most about Envoy is itís reserve time and the flying hours you get on reserve. Especially since i would be getting 145 90% chance since iím neither a candidate nor that old.

I got really unlucky. Missed the 175 in class and got marooned in NYC on the 145 on reserve for over a year, never flying even though I did everything in my power (short of sacrificing my ~7 days a month where I was at home and not commuting, to pick up OT) to fly. I closed out my first 12 months with less than 200 hrs. Things are probably better now.

Tyrion
01-15-2020, 09:32 AM
No, it's not a gap.
200 numbers to move up 7 places, but 400 numbers to move up 14, 600 numbers for 21, and so on. That's a gradient, not a gap.

DCL has a gap, almost 300 numbers between last and second to last, but that's why the junior guys got displaced off it.
And according to you, NCE has a gap too. And that would be impossible because you just promised a year of commuting to NY.

You won't have any FOs displacing to DCE this time round, so your point is moot.

I'm giving you pearls of wisdom, and you are arguing over semantics... gradient, gap, whatever.

The point is that there is a lot of room above the junior guys on the DCE seniority list. They don't even become lineholders until they reach 3 digit seniority numbers. In that space are plenty of guys who would prefer to be Dallas based, but are either in ORD, LGA, or are currently FOs. The more guys like that in that space, the greater the chance that the bottom DCE guys get displaced, or face perpetual airport standby. There are even junior guys on the DCL list moving to DCE. Nobody on the DCE list is waiting to go to ORD or LGA to create more vacancies.

Anyway, I never promised you a year of reserve on the NCE list. I'm just hoping that happens as karma for all the rudeness and petty arguments you've been posting here.

Cyio
01-15-2020, 10:24 AM
I feel like a complete idiot when you to start arguing because your abilities to work decs far exceeds mine. 😂😂😂

But seriously
01-16-2020, 12:27 PM
going back to the OP...
Ord 145 reserve time is around 9-10 months for FOís right now. It appears that itís taking FOís around 2 years to get their 1000 hours to upgrade. Obviously this varies, but that appears to be the average based on my subjective experience.

Cyio
01-16-2020, 02:09 PM
going back to the OP...
Ord 145 reserve time is around 9-10 months for FOís right now. It appears that itís taking FOís around 2 years to get their 1000 hours to upgrade. Obviously this varies, but that appears to be the average based on my subjective experience.

I feel this is mostly true across all the fleets/based. Sure some go longer and some shorter but 2.0 from doh seems like a fair target.