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View Full Version : Considering jumping ship


frddrvr
01-17-2020, 04:01 AM
Soliciting advice from an anonymous Internet forum might be nuts but here it goes.

Iím relatively new here and consider myself extremely fortunate to be part of the team. FedEx was always my #1 choice but some of that shine is starting to wear off after seeing behind the curtain. That being said, Iím considering brushing off the resume with all of this doom and gloom.

Iím less than 1yr on property and donít know what I donít know. The majority of my buddies fly for the UAL/Delta/AA/SWA and truly think Iím nuts staying on board FedExís sinking ship. I donít have many buddies here to steer me straight with an honest long term perspective of flying for FedEx. I havenít been a fan of the night hub turns but Iím told day flying is doable with a bit of seniority. Does it really get better? So what is the true story? Are we at the bottom of a normal business cycle or do we have our collective heads in the sand? I hope Iím wrong but the headwinds of change donít look favorable.

Iím fortunate to likely have a long career ahead of me and live within driving distance to big domiciles for the other major carriers. Flying purple tails have always been my dream so I canít believe Iím even considering walking away from the best flying job in the world. Have I lost my mind?

cheers -


Fdxlag2
01-17-2020, 04:59 AM
Sounds like you won’t be happy here. So get your line number elsewhere as soon as possible. Not sure what other advice you are looking for. Go with my blessings.

Noworkallplay
01-17-2020, 04:59 AM
Soliciting advice from an anonymous Internet forum might be nuts but here it goes.

Iím relatively new here and consider myself extremely fortunate to be part of the team. FedEx was always my #1 choice but some of that shine is starting to wear off after seeing behind the curtain. That being said, Iím considering brushing off the resume with all of this doom and gloom.

Iím less than 1yr on property and donít know what I donít know. The majority of my buddies fly for the UAL/Delta/AA/SWA and truly think Iím nuts staying on board FedExís sinking ship. I donít have many buddies here to steer me straight with an honest long term perspective of flying for FedEx. I havenít been a fan of the night hub turns but Iím told day flying is doable with a bit of seniority. Does it really get better? So what is the true story? Are we at the bottom of a normal business cycle or do we have our collective heads in the sand? I hope Iím wrong but the headwinds of change donít look favorable.

Iím fortunate to likely have a long career ahead of me and live within driving distance to big domiciles for the other major carriers. Flying purple tails have always been my dream so I canít believe Iím even considering walking away from the best flying job in the world. Have I lost my mind?

cheers -

So what are you going to do in an economic downturn when the passenger airlines are struggling? Will you want to leave them also? So is your reason for leaving the recent earnings issues or are you not happy with the lifestyle? I think you need to differentiate what it is thats driving your questions.


gatorhater
01-17-2020, 05:29 AM
I would agree: if the business side is your biggest issue, there will be ups and downs in both pax and cargo. Sometimes they coincide, often they are opposing. Look at the last recession when pax were getting hammered while cargo expanded. The grass may be greener today, but it could be because of a leaky septic system.

if the night hub turns/ commute are your #1 issue, then get out ASAP and get your number somewhere else. A few months can make huge differences. I live 30 miles from the busiest airport in the world. Commuting ainít great, I sacrifice money and flexibility. night turns are not my friend, but I can hold day flying at just short of three years. That being said, Delta has hired enough guys younger than me (40) in the last 5 years to all but guarantee I never captain a widebody with any QOL. Iíll retire at FX in the top 250 if I make it to 65. I ainít moving and FX commute is the easiest in the country. So, Iíll stick with my 1B, Fx, over my 1a, DL.

Thatís my calculus, yours is different. Hopefully it adds a little perspective.

Hacker15e
01-17-2020, 05:41 AM
FedExís sinking ship.

No, you haven't "lost your mind", but since this statement is the cornerstone of the opinions of your buddies that seem to be influencing your doubt about staying at Purple, I'd look for some clearer analysis of the situation before making a decision.

Yes, Purple has corporate headwinds right now, and they are coming from both global circumstances the company has no control over, as well as industry factors that the company *can* work against. It might be a very tough time ahead -- a friend I know in FX corporate told me that between the China trade war, BREXIT, and TNT integration, any one of the three would be considered a substantial obstacle for the company, and we're facing all three simultaneously. And, nobody knows the future of e-commerce and how that will either kill or be a massive boon for the overnight freight industry.

But, none of those things (or even the aggregate of them all together) means that Purple is a "sinking ship". It isn't even a damaged ship. It is still a very good ship that is sailing in really rough seas. Might it get worse? Of course. But, it may also all blow over and be gone in a shorter timeline than you may think. Nobody knows, but I certainly don't find the situation to be anywhere close to "the sky is falling" that has been the popular media analysis of the last 6 months or so.

As has been mentioned, don't think that the passenger carriers are any safer or a more secure place to hang your hat for a career. The very reason Purple is has been an attractive home for the last two decades has a lot to do with two decades of tumult at the passenger lines. We are all at the whim of a lot of factors we have zero control over and we cannot plan for (especially over the course of a career-length timeline).

Yes, it gets better. It can get better fast, depending on your fleet and what you prioritize on your bidding. Personally, I wouldn't let the suck of night hub turning as a new guy prevent you from seeing the long term opportunity that Purple may offer over most of the passenger carriers, depending on your career desires. 8 out of 10 seats at Purple are on widebody pay, and there are lots of opportunities to chase interesting international flying even as a pretty low seniority pilot. The current junior widebody Captain has been on property about 4.5 years.

If that's not anything that interests you, then that's up to you...but those opportunities are rarer at most of the pax lines (and nonexistent at SWA).

Sluggo_63
01-17-2020, 05:54 AM
You're going to find a lot of people here who are going to defend FedEx to the end, can't see the negatives, and won't be able to fathom why anyone would want to leave.

I would say that there are pluses and minuses here, for sure. Just like other places. Pilots tend to polish their own turds and downplay any negatives that their airline may have.

FedEx guys will routinely poo-poo the negatives... "Hub turning isn't that bad, you get used to it". "Over 70% of our flying is during the day". And it goes on.

But be aware that your buddies at other airlines do the same. Maybe I would have enjoyed myself at Southwest, but when I hear my buddies say they flew 800+ hours in a year, or "we rarely five 5 legs a day any more" or "we get to pick up as much work as we want to make money," I just shake my head and wonder how they do it... just like they look at us landing somewhere at 7:00 am and think "those poor bastards."

I was at a major passenger airline in 2001 and was furloughed after 9/11. I was lucky enough to get hired here after 5 years as a furloughee. I turned down the recall to my airline in 2007, which was a good thing because I would have been furloughed again in the recession of 2008.

But, when I was a new hire here there were nights I really questioned my decision to jump from a steady 9-5 job in the Air Force Reserves to come here. I had a scattershot VTO schedule with me making multiple commutes to work, just to hub turn all night in the back seat of the 727, hanging in the straps just trying to stay awake on final. I was seriously wondering what I had done.

But it got better. As my seniority grew, so did my quality of life. Week-on/week-off became a reality. Then came double deadheads to my home town. I was home more and blocking less. Life was good.

I tell everyone that comes here that being junior here sucks. Some of the worst flying in the airline industry is our junior domestic flying. That isn't a debate. It can be horrible. But with seniority, it gets a lot better. I think the problem you're facing right now, is you got hired in what seems like it may be the beginning of a slowdown in hiring keeping you from gaining seniority as quickly as others that have gone before you. It's easy for me and others to say, it'll be good once you get some seniority, because we're already senior and maybe didn't experience being a 90% 757 FO hub turning for years with no option to improve our lot in life.

When we were hiring 20 pilots a month, we always had guys in class who came from other airlines, including the "big 4." Although it wasn't publicized, I'll guarantee that we had quite a few pilots leave here for other jobs at other airlines.

So, really, I have no advice to give you except be wary of people who tell you that you're crazy to think about leaving, because you aren't. Their history here may not line up with your reality. But also be aware of your friends at other airlines who tell you how good it is there while ignoring the downsides of their jobs.

Whatever you decide, good luck to you. I wish you the best.

UnusualAttitude
01-17-2020, 05:57 AM
You're going to find a lot of people here who are going to defend FedEx to the end, can't see the negatives, and won't be able to fathom why anyone would want to leave.

I would say that there are pluses and minuses here, for sure. Just like other places. Pilots tend to polish their own turds and downplay any negatives that their airline may have.

FedEx guys will routinely poo-poo the negatives... "Hub turning isn't that bad, you get used to it". "Over 70% of our flying is during the day". And it goes on.

But be aware that your buddies at other airlines do the same. Maybe I would have enjoyed myself at Southwest, but when I hear my buddies say they flew 800+ hours in a year, or "we rarely five 5 legs a day any more" or "we get to pick up as much work as we want to make money," I just shake my head and wonder how they do it... just like they look at us landing somewhere at 7:00 am and think "those poor bastards."

I was at a major passenger airline in 2001 and was furloughed after 9/11. I was lucky enough to get hired here after 5 years as a furloughee. I turned down the recall to my airline in 2007, which was a good thing because I would have been furloughed again in the recession of 2008.

But, when I was a new hire here there were nights I really questioned my decision to jump from a steady 9-5 job in the Air Force Reserves to come here. I had a scattershot VTO schedule with me making multiple commutes to work, just to hub turn all night in the back seat of the 727, hanging in the straps just trying to stay awake on final. I was seriously wondering what I had done.

But it got better. As my seniority grew, so did my quality of life. Week-on/week-off became a reality. Then came double deadheads to my home town. I was home more and blocking less. Life was good.

I tell everyone that comes here that being junior here sucks. Some of the worst flying in the airline industry is our junior domestic flying. That isn't a debate. It can be horrible. But with seniority, it gets a lot better. I think the problem you're facing right now, is you got hired in what seems like it may be the beginning of a slowdown in hiring keeping you from gaining seniority as quickly as others that have gone before you. It's easy for me and others to say, it'll be good once you get some seniority, because we're already senior and maybe didn't experience being a 90% 757 FO hub turning for years with no option to improve our lot in life.

When we were hiring 20 pilots a month, we always had guys in class who came from other airlines, including the "big 4." Although it wasn't publicized, I'll guarantee that we had quite a few pilots leave here for other jobs at other airlines.

So, really, I have no advice to give you except be wary of people who tell you that you're crazy to think about leaving, because you aren't. Their history here may not line up with your reality. But also be aware of your friends at other airlines who tell you how good it is there while ignoring the downsides of their jobs.

Whatever you decide, good luck to you. I wish you the best.

Excellent post. Cheers to you.

Cicada
01-17-2020, 05:59 AM
[QUOTE=Fdxlag2;2958566]Sounds like you won’t be happy here. So get your line number elsewhere as soon as possible. Not sure what other advice you are looking for. Go with my blessings.[/QUOTE


Here is my true story. College roommate gets out of AF about 3 yrs after I start with USAir in early 80's. He immediately starts with FedEx. Calls me with a story exactly like the OP. He thinks he wants to come over to USAir. My job is great and I am advancing quickly. But I tell him that just about everyone I know at Tigers/FedEx seems pretty happy, and I have jumpseated quite a bit on them. He has an offer at USAir. I honestly was taken aback by his possibility of jumping, and he sensed it. Thank God he stayed. Had he come to USAir, he would have been constantly on the cusp of furlough, and ridden out multiple mergers, BK, and constant job worry. He ended up being a fleet Capt. Had a huge paycheck and a pension. I was fortunate to do fairly well, but I constantly thank his stars he stayed at FedEx. And at the time, USAir/ Piedmont was killing it.

meatloaf
01-17-2020, 06:12 AM
I hear you. My first 2 yrs were miserable too. I was a night flying hub-turning zombie. Hated it, and began to reassess my decision. I was getting ready to move on. That was 19 years ago.

In Year 3 I started International. It's a totally different experience. My body reacts better to it. I have fun or do something interesting on every trip, see the world, and I couldn't pick our Chief Pilot out of a lineup. I pass through MEM a couple hours a month commuting. My family is happy, the pay rates are attainable and not pie-in-the-sky for only those who have been on property since the Reagan administration, and I like the flexibility to either work hard or take a month or two off. And yes, others seem to like the hub-turning life for various reasons. God bless 'em.

Having worked at a passenger carrier previously, I would say this: Fed Ex has not historically had the knee jerk reaction that virtually all airlines have had when the economic winds shift. They have still never furloughed and we still have a pension. (See 9/11 for comparison). It's not perfect and who knows what the future holds, but it's been a damn fine ride and I'm glad I stuck with it. Best of luck to you.

coryk
01-17-2020, 06:27 AM
I don't blame you for thinking that. I tell my friends wanting to come to FedEx this... "there's no worse place to be junior, but there's no better place to be senior."

The difference between the two here is massive, imo. Being junior/senior at UA/DL isn't as drastic, as many of their domestic trips are the same and you're really only bidding for commutability/days off. Not so much here.

I've been here almost 3 years. I left a big 3 pax airline to do it. My first year I questioned my decision a lot. But as I got more senior I saw how good it was here vs. there. I don't think I could say my QOL would have been better at "major airline A" if I had stayed after looking at the schedules of some of my friends there.

Bottom line, most of these jobs are the same. Get up, fly, eat, sleep. Go home, enjoy time off, get a cool hobby. Forget about the job.

Just my opinion.

C2078
01-17-2020, 07:24 AM
Excellent post by Sluggo 👍.

While not a Fedex guy (UPS guy), and hired within the last 3 years, here is my 2 cents.

First of all, Fedex is most definitely NOT a sinking ship. However, I would not take in consideration how bad the airlines where doing during the Great Recession vs how Fedex/UPS where expanding and being shielded from economic uncertainty. This is a VERY different time, the pax airlines finally, after decades of operation, understand that yield management/profitability is much more important than market share. They will dump a market or reduce frequency in a heart beat if loosing money, redeploy assets to another profitable route. The mindset and structural nature of the business has fundamentally changed. The big 4 have two powerful tools available to them in case capacity starts to surpass demand: park older planes and stop hiring and let attrition widdle down the surplus of pilots. IMO, unless there is some sort of depression, you wonít see a furlough for years, if at all.

The cargo world is much more in flux today than the pax airlines. Not that itís going anywhere, but both Fedex and UPS are facing headwinds and a changing landscape. E-Commerce and international trade come to mind. One thing is for certain, Amazon has changed the competitive landscape, hate them or love them. One positive byproduct is people want their purchases NOW, creating higher demand for faster shipping services. And brick and mortar continues itís precipitous decline.

I have just under 500 folks below me at UPS (out of 2,950 or so) and while not considering jumping ship (that sailed for me when I turned down Purple and United, regret somewhat not taking the ladder), it makes me a tad uncomfortable. And with less than a year in at Fedex, I would be very uncomfortable, not panicking but uncomfortable.

Fedex is a great company, tremendous schedule flexibility, but with few coming in below you in the near future, your QOL may not improve as rapidly as previous new hires. The question becomes, and it only matters what YOU think, is this temporary or is it more long term? If you ask me, again IMO, while absolutely still a great job, those hired at Fedex recently and going forward have missed the expansion wave, the days of rapid QOL improvement. That was one part of my decision to say no thank you to Fedex. Fedex had been hiring 500+ a year for multiple years, since 2014 something like half or more of the seniority list has been hired. And the potential for flying expansion, after having already received a large chunk of the new planes, net growth of the seniority list was simply going to slow down, with upward movement coming mostly in the form of retirements (something like 42 76 and 15 77 remaining to be delivered, of which most will be replacements).

I hear quite a bit of rumblings regarding schedule quality deterioration from the 4-5 former colleagues that are at Fedex. Probably one of the best aspects of the job. Something worth looking further into.

Age is another huge factor. If you are 45+ I would not even consider Delta or Southwest due to demographics. United is probably best right now, AA with the MASSIVE retirements will provide very rapid movement but you are rolling the dice with such a dysfunctional family.

Fedex (and UPS for that matter) is facing several headwinds, and the industry landscape is changing just as the pax carriers underwent fundamental structural changes in the 2000ís. Tough to predict what the future holds. Acquisition by a major retailer? Chinese remove the boot from the neck? Amazon continues to grow to the point of offering third party shipping services at a low cost to offset their own shipping?

A lot of uncertainties right now, we all wish we had a crystal ball. While not doing night hub turns anymore, and my QOL is pretty good, I do regret somewhat not going to United. My bed is made, your window, depending on your age, is still open. My number one suggestion as a relatively new guy, DO NOT make haste decisions and do not make decisions on short term economic events. Analyze what you are considering leaving behind vs what you may or may not gain. I canít emphasize enough, THE GRASS IS NOT ALWAYS GREENER ON THE OTHER SIDE. Analyze every aspect of the job, schedules, health care, retirement, upward mobility, commuting (or not), Union/company relationship, etc. Donít focus on just one thing. Fedex seems to take pride that they have never furloughed (unlike Brown who did not need to furlough and did it anyways 🤦‍♂️), something to consider.

Look at the grand picture, it is most definitely not a black or white decision. Good luck to you!!

flextodaline
01-17-2020, 08:13 AM
You're going to find a lot of people here who are going to defend FedEx to the end, can't see the negatives, and won't be able to fathom why anyone would want to leave.

I would say that there are pluses and minuses here, for sure. Just like other places. Pilots tend to polish their own turds and downplay any negatives that their airline may have.

FedEx guys will routinely poo-poo the negatives... "Hub turning isn't that bad, you get used to it". "Over 70% of our flying is during the day". And it goes on.

But be aware that your buddies at other airlines do the same. Maybe I would have enjoyed myself at Southwest, but when I hear my buddies say they flew 800+ hours in a year, or "we rarely five 5 legs a day any more" or "we get to pick up as much work as we want to make money," I just shake my head and wonder how they do it... just like they look at us landing somewhere at 7:00 am and think "those poor bastards."

I was at a major passenger airline in 2001 and was furloughed after 9/11. I was lucky enough to get hired here after 5 years as a furloughee. I turned down the recall to my airline in 2007, which was a good thing because I would have been furloughed again in the recession of 2008.

But, when I was a new hire here there were nights I really questioned my decision to jump from a steady 9-5 job in the Air Force Reserves to come here. I had a scattershot VTO schedule with me making multiple commutes to work, just to hub turn all night in the back seat of the 727, hanging in the straps just trying to stay awake on final. I was seriously wondering what I had done.

But it got better. As my seniority grew, so did my quality of life. Week-on/week-off became a reality. Then came double deadheads to my home town. I was home more and blocking less. Life was good.

I tell everyone that comes here that being junior here sucks. Some of the worst flying in the airline industry is our junior domestic flying. That isn't a debate. It can be horrible. But with seniority, it gets a lot better. I think the problem you're facing right now, is you got hired in what seems like it may be the beginning of a slowdown in hiring keeping you from gaining seniority as quickly as others that have gone before you. It's easy for me and others to say, it'll be good once you get some seniority, because we're already senior and maybe didn't experience being a 90% 757 FO hub turning for years with no option to improve our lot in life.

When we were hiring 20 pilots a month, we always had guys in class who came from other airlines, including the "big 4." Although it wasn't publicized, I'll guarantee that we had quite a few pilots leave here for other jobs at other airlines.

So, really, I have no advice to give you except be wary of people who tell you that you're crazy to think about leaving, because you aren't. Their history here may not line up with your reality. But also be aware of your friends at other airlines who tell you how good it is there while ignoring the downsides of their jobs.

Whatever you decide, good luck to you. I wish you the best.

This may be the best post I've ever read......well done, Sluggo

frddrvr
01-17-2020, 09:00 AM
Thanks so much for the thoughtful insight. Iím sorry if I came across as negative in my original post. This job is awesome and Iím glad to be here. It just seems like all I hear about is negative media attention and how Amazon is going to kill us. I havenít been around long enough to know what to pay attention to and what is an over reaction or hyperbole. Great post Sluggo...that is 100% what I was hoping to hear.

Hope see yíall on the line!

TiredSoul
01-17-2020, 09:33 AM
Iím not at Fedex or UPS...or United.
Keep in mind though that you have the job that everybody else wants.
Thousands apply every year and thousands donít even get a call or a TBNT for that matter.
This forum is filled with how-do-I for the company that you work for.
Its not always champagne and strawberries at any job, inside or out of aviation.
Without knowing you and just reading your initial post it sounds like youíre expecting the sky to fall down.
Whatever negatives youíre experiencing right now it will only get better.
Yes we all have been or still are at the bottom couple of hundred.
Nothing you can do will fix that.
People will always need to eat and theyíll never stop ordering cheap stuff from China.
They will stop traveling however when things get tight.
AFAIK every major airline has at some point gone through restructuring proceedings and emptied out retirement funds.
Fedex never has.

C2078
01-17-2020, 10:12 AM
Thanks so much for the thoughtful insight. Iím sorry if I came across as negative in my original post. This job is awesome and Iím glad to be here. It just seems like all I hear about is negative media attention and how Amazon is going to kill us. I havenít been around long enough to know what to pay attention to and what is an over reaction or hyperbole. Great post Sluggo...that is 100% what I was hoping to hear.

Hope see yíall on the line!

Hey, we all need to vent from time to time! And you probably helped others in the same boat get a sense of perspective.

Reese
01-17-2020, 10:14 AM
….Fedex is a great company, tremendous schedule flexibility, but with few coming in below you in the near future, your QOL may not improve as rapidly as previous new hires. The question becomes, and it only matters what YOU think, is this temporary or is it more long term? If you ask me, again IMO, while absolutely still a great job, those hired at Fedex recently and going forward have missed the expansion wave, the days of rapid QOL improvement. That was one part of my decision to say no thank you to Fedex. Fedex had been hiring 500+ a year for multiple years, since 2014 something like half or more of the seniority list has been hired. And the potential for flying expansion, after having already received a large chunk of the new planes, net growth of the seniority list was simply going to slow down, with upward movement coming mostly in the form of retirements (something like 42 76 and 15 77 remaining to be delivered, of which most will be replacements)…...

Just some clarification.

Hiring/Retirements
2015(May-December): Hired 113
2016: Hired 361
2017: Hired 357, Retired 182, Net Gain 175
2018: Hired 408, Retired 170, Net Gain 238
2019: Hired 375, Retired 158, Net Gain 217
2020: Retire 144
2021: Retire 165
2022: Retire 193
2023->2028: Retire 200+/year

Current Seniority List: ~5,000
2020->2028: ~1,824 mandatory retirements (~36% of the list)

Most Junior 757 CA is ~82% overall seniority
Most Junior WB CA is ~67% overall seniority

C2078
01-17-2020, 10:17 AM
Just some clarification.

Hiring/Retirements
2015: Hired 113
2016: Hired 361
2017: Hired 357, Retired 182, Net Gain 175
2018: Hired 408, Retired 170, Net Gain 238
2019: Hired 375, Retired 158, Net Gain 217
2020: Retire 144
2021: Retire 165
2022: Retire 193
2023->2028: Retire 200+/year

Current Seniority List: ~5,000
2020->2028: ~1,824 mandatory retirements (~36% of the list)

Most Junior 757 CA is ~82% overall seniority
Most Junior WB CA is ~67% overall seniority


Thank you for clarification. When I interviewed in 2017 they told us they had been hiring close to 500 since 2014, about 20 every other week pretty consistently.

PolicyWonk
01-17-2020, 12:04 PM
Stay at FedEx. We are still profitable.

At some time in the future, a Von Mises crack up boom or a Hyman Minsky moment will come. You'd rather be here than a pax carrier when society figures out that the pancakes they've stacked have flattened to the thickness of tortillas. And the consequences of government debt cannot be put off forever.

The barriers to entry in this business will enable us to survive more easily than the passenger carriers. Much of the passenger carrying is discretionary travel. Much of the business travel could go to video conferencing in a depression. But I doubt Brick and Mortar will make a comeback.

Still, more freight will move to trucks. And ships. I couldn't foresee the impact of a bigger and better Panama Canal when I came here.

​​​​But the barriers to entry in this business are sizeable. After the next downturn, I doubt Amazon's access to capital will be as easy as it has been till now. Their profitability may not be sufficient to fund their desired expansion of infrastructure.

MEMA300
01-17-2020, 03:28 PM
Depends on age....

Passenger carriers have gone thru their 40 yrs in the desert... I am afraid we are about to go thru ours and this is why..

-Competition from Amazon
-Technology inovations
-Global trade disruptions
-Poor management allowing reduced manning.

Cargo will be reduced to single or no pilot decades before passenger carriers.

If you are young and can get to a jr domicile easy I would seriously consider leaving. Bid long call rsv and sit at home. I got lots of friends that are jr at the big three and their qol is pretty good. We had a big turn down 10 yrs ago and looks like we might have some ruff times ahead.

This said last guy I know that left here went to AA in August of 2001...

Noworkallplay
01-17-2020, 07:06 PM
Depends on age....

Passenger carriers have gone thru their 40 yrs in the desert... I am afraid we are about to go thru ours and this is why..

-Competition from Amazon
-Technology inovations
-Global trade disruptions
-Poor management allowing reduced manning.

Cargo will be reduced to single or no pilot decades before passenger carriers.

If you are young and can get to a jr domicile easy I would seriously consider leaving. Bid long call rsv and sit at home. I got lots of friends that are jr at the big three and their qol is pretty good. We had a big turn down 10 yrs ago and looks like we might have some ruff times ahead.

This said last guy I know that left here went to AA in August of 2001...

A 40 year down turn?

How was the guys career at AA?

abides
01-17-2020, 07:28 PM
A 40 year down turn?

How was the guys career at AA?
The first 10 years were probably terrible.

123456
01-17-2020, 07:45 PM
Just had a similar conversation with a friend who has been here just over a year. I don't think many people who have been here less than 2 years will say this is the best place to work. Its always the senior guys who say that. The problem now, is due to the slowdown in hiring, you might be at the bottom for much longer than expected. It's also hard to pass up rapid seniority at other carriers just from massive retirements each year alone. And he lives in the base of a top pax carrier. Someone said it earlier about the difference in trips being junior versus senior here compared to pax carriers as they are not much different therre as compared to here. I honestly couldn't come up with any compelling reasons for telling him to stay here based on his personal circumstances.

MEMA300
01-17-2020, 08:02 PM
A 40 year down turn?

How was the guys career at AA?.


Of course not every year for 40 years. It is a metaphor relating to a story. The airlines struggled since deregulation in 1978 (which fedex was huge beneficiary) until late 2000 teens when some MBA figured to charge for bags. Since then they have turned a profit...

Fedex will have to fight hard to stay competative and maybe to even stay in business. Some ppl here sound like some Eastern guys I used to know...

C2078
01-17-2020, 09:00 PM
Stay at FedEx. We are still profitable.

At some time in the future, a Von Mises crack up boom or a Hyman Minsky moment will come. You'd rather be here than a pax carrier when society figures out that the pancakes they've stacked have flattened to the thickness of tortillas. And the consequences of government debt cannot be put off forever.

The barriers to entry in this business will enable us to survive more easily than the passenger carriers. Much of the passenger carrying is discretionary travel. Much of the business travel could go to video conferencing in a depression. But I doubt Brick and Mortar will make a comeback.

Still, more freight will move to trucks. And ships. I couldn't foresee the impact of a bigger and better Panama Canal when I came here.

​​​​But the barriers to entry in this business are sizeable. After the next downturn, I doubt Amazon's access to capital will be as easy as it has been till now. Their profitability may not be sufficient to fund their desired expansion of infrastructure.

As long as AWS continues to be the mega cash cow, Amazon will continue to finance their growth. If you dig into their financial statements, the cash flow generated by AWS is impressive, that is why we all should be rooting for Microsoftís cloud business!! No airline/logistics/ transportation company has ever had that kind of financial muscle behind it.

Armyguy
01-17-2020, 09:18 PM
I turned down a fedex interview a couple of years ago and regret it. I left an ACMI carrier and was totally sick of night flying. So I offer the following view:

-You will spend a lot of your seniority on avoiding weekends and holidays at a pax carrier. At my airline it takes about 50% to avoid those things as a line holder, less so as a reserve pilot and depending on your base you could be sitting reserve Mon-Fri at 75% or higher. I have heard from a FedEx buddy there isnt much weekend/holiday flying and thats a HUGE plus.

-You will have to spend time dealing with TSA and crowded airports. At Fedex, not so much

-Commuting has been relatively painless (I throw that out there because some guys act like commuting at a pax carrier is the end of the world, it is way easier than I ever imagined)

-I actually like having FA's now, makes life interesting but that is an FO perspective.
-multiple legs per day on junior trips. I dont like anything greater than 2 legs a day. 1 is what I really want, much like you Fedex guys. takes some serious seniority to get 1 leg trips all month.

-I will say that on the outside looking in, I find it hard to believe there is that much purely day flying at Fedex. At the pax carriers you can have redeyes (especially west coast bases) BUT they are never more than 1 leg or guys would fatique them. They are also easy, easy to avoid because many commuters want them so you usually cant get them unless you are senior (east coast bases). If a flight takes off at midnight and flies to noon with sunrise being 6am are you guys calling that 50% day flying? Well, to me that isnt day flying, that horrible (not sure if that applies, just was my experience at ACMI)

-a pension is priceless. 50K a year pension is worth in my view about 1.5 million dollars in a 401K. Even with a 16% DC you aint getting 1.5 million in a 401K at a pax carrier for a long time.

Thought about reapplying to Fedex but hiring has basically stopped, I am older than most guys, plus I do have lots of guys below me at my carrier so it would be stupid to start over. I highly suggest you stay at Fedex.

Sorry for jumping on your thread, just sharing thoughts from the other side.

wrxpilot
01-17-2020, 10:07 PM
This is a good discussion.

About 18 months ago I turned down United for FedEx. I lived in a UAL base, so it was not an easy decision. However, having spent 7+ years of flying for United at a UEX carrier, I was absolutely sick of dealing with a dysfunctional airline, ungrateful pax, and often difficult/annoying FAs. Finally, the pension at FDX was WAY too good to pass up, as it gave me a chance to finally (and conservatively) be on track for retirement as a 40ish guy.

That said, during IOE at FDX, we wondered into a hotel at 5 am looking like complete crap, having just finished a brutal EWR 3 leg hub turn. We looked like garbage, and I could literally feel my body rejecting that kind of exhaustion like a sickness. It isnít good, and doing that kind of stuff consistently will kill you. Anyway, as we walked into the hotel, there was a UAL crew looking fresh and chipper, getting ready to do their nice day trip. I REALLY regretted that decision to come to FDX at that moment.

Fortunately my schedules quickly improved, and I rarely feel like my rest is pushed to the limit. This is a pretty easy job for the most part, provided you do your best to take care of sleep as needed. My schedule is outstanding, and my experience with the vacation here has been absolutely incredible.

So do I regret not going to UAL? I still have days that I do, but then again I think I wouldíve been very dissatisfied doing the same crap I was already doing, especially as passengers continue to become crazier and more entitled. Iíve also been able to witness the powerful international network FedEx has, and it truly is impressive and Amazon does NOT do what we do.

901Dude
01-17-2020, 10:22 PM
Totally understand your frustration. I was there! I haven’t been here too long but long enough to say that it’s been awesome...after probation lol. Wait for year 2 pay to kick in. Also, you’ll have more vacation after year 1. Ask and listen to the junior captains you fly with (or BI buddies) on how the SLG can really help your schedule. My training partner in Indoc said you’ll make a lot of mistakes in your bid & scheduling your first year...learn from them and shape your schedule better next time. I’ve made tons of mistakes. Hindsight is 20/20 for me! This really is an airline that can accommodate a wide array of desires. And I sure as heck DON’T want a “normal” flying schedule some of my friends have at the legacies. For example I’m averaging less than 200 hours/year flying here. I have a friend who just bragged about flying 500 hours the last 6 months at SWA...uhh...no thanks. Good luck with your decision. It’s a great market for pilots :)

Noworkallplay
01-18-2020, 05:27 AM
I turned down a fedex interview a couple of years ago and regret it. I left an ACMI carrier and was totally sick of night flying. So I offer the following view:

-You will spend a lot of your seniority on avoiding weekends and holidays at a pax carrier. At my airline it takes about 50% to avoid those things as a line holder, less so as a reserve pilot and depending on your base you could be sitting reserve Mon-Fri at 75% or higher. I have heard from a FedEx buddy there isnt much weekend/holiday flying and thats a HUGE plus.

-You will have to spend time dealing with TSA and crowded airports. At Fedex, not so much

-Commuting has been relatively painless (I throw that out there because some guys act like commuting at a pax carrier is the end of the world, it is way easier than I ever imagined)

-I actually like having FA's now, makes life interesting but that is an FO perspective.
-multiple legs per day on junior trips. I dont like anything greater than 2 legs a day. 1 is what I really want, much like you Fedex guys. takes some serious seniority to get 1 leg trips all month.

-I will say that on the outside looking in, I find it hard to believe there is that much purely day flying at Fedex. At the pax carriers you can have redeyes (especially west coast bases) BUT they are never more than 1 leg or guys would fatique them. They are also easy, easy to avoid because many commuters want them so you usually cant get them unless you are senior (east coast bases). If a flight takes off at midnight and flies to noon with sunrise being 6am are you guys calling that 50% day flying? Well, to me that isnt day flying, that horrible (not sure if that applies, just was my experience at ACMI)

-a pension is priceless. 50K a year pension is worth in my view about 1.5 million dollars in a 401K. Even with a 16% DC you aint getting 1.5 million in a 401K at a pax carrier for a long time.

Thought about reapplying to Fedex but hiring has basically stopped, I am older than most guys, plus I do have lots of guys below me at my carrier so it would be stupid to start over. I highly suggest you stay at Fedex.

Sorry for jumping on your thread, just sharing thoughts from the other side.

Great perspective. I was at another major prior to FedEx. Maybe even the one your at it sounds like. As a Jr guy I was getting red eyes. Keep in mind the reason most of them were only one leg was bc they were trans cons on 3/4 trans cons. So not enough duty time to hub turn usually. The company didn't not build them with more than one leg bc they were worried about fatigue, they did it because it was either over the max FDP or it was within the "buffer" of the FDP restriction.

I couldn't agree more with your pension statement. Its one of the biggest reasons I left. Our pension at Purple is 130k a year as long as you do 25 years of service and hit 5 years of earning greater than 260. My financial guy valued it at around 3 million if you were to try to offset it with a 401k only plan.

Its funny but we all do it. We look at other places and go "what if". Being Jr and commuting to night hub turns at FedEx can be exhausting and I can see how it can beat you down. However, once you get out of the bottom 30% there is no better place. Living in base solves a lot of things also.

coryk
01-18-2020, 05:41 AM
Great perspective. I was at another major prior to FedEx. Maybe even the one your at it sounds like. As a Jr guy I was getting red eyes. Keep in mind the reason most of them were only one leg was bc they were trans cons on 3/4 trans cons. So not enough duty time to hub turn usually. The company didn't not build them with more than one leg bc they were worried about fatigue, they did it because it was either over the max FDP or it was within the "buffer" of the FDP restriction.

I couldn't agree more with your pension statement. Its one of the biggest reasons I left. Our pension at Purple is 130k a year as long as you do 25 years of service and hit 5 years of earning greater than 260. My financial guy valued it at around 3 million if you were to try to offset it with a 401k only plan.

Its funny but we all do it. We look at other places and go "what if". Being Jr and commuting to night hub turns at FedEx can be exhausting and I can see how it can beat you down. However, once you get out of the bottom 30% there is no better place. Living in base solves a lot of things also.

Again, more good perspective.

Ultimately, I think weíre all competitive people. We see friends at DL/UA, whether us via social media, in passing, etc, and we only see the best parts of that job. We donít see the less than ideal times when they might be question their own decision to go to that company.

I can see how one would get down commuting into RA, spending the weekend in Flint in January while all your buddies are in Cabo or San Diego for their nice layover. But, there are times I go to work at FedEx and laugh because the trip with all itís built in soft-time is so easy. Whether itís starting from home, first class ticket to finish, one leg during the day time. We really do have some good stuff here!

busdriver12
01-18-2020, 06:59 AM
I totally understand your concern about the company. We were at the top of the heap in so many ways, and now, not only are we falling behind other carriers, it looks like we have overhired. We are overcapacity by a long shot, earnings have been worse than expected for some time, and there's the fear that Amazon is eating our lunch. If I was fairly junior, I would be worried, especially if I'm passing up opportunities while the pax carriers are hiring like crazy. Fred will likely retire soon, God help us. It's a tough call.


On the positive side, we do have many scheduled retirements, we've never furloughed, and people are always going to want their stuff. I never understood why people hung onto their reserve/guard jobs while working for this company, but I do now. Personally, if I was looking elsewhere, I'd look at Delta, because I think they will be around for a long time. I avoid American and United, because every time it seems to be an unpleasant or mediocre experience. Delta gets me there every time, and it's a minimum of hassle, if one has to be a passenger. Seems that would be a good strategy if you want to stick around for the long term, Delta seems to have it down. And their profit sharing? Wow.


It is so unfortunate the junior pilots even have to consider this.

2BEER
01-18-2020, 09:21 AM
I just completed year 2 at FDX and here are my thoughts with consideration to the fact that everybodyís situations, goals, and expectations are different.

First year sucks and thereís no getting around it unless youíre going to drop mil leave. Depending on what fleet you are in and where youíre willing to live it is possible to avoid hub turning- I avoid it like the plague (I moved to base) but I acknowledge that I probably have not seen my last hub turn. If you jump ship you sign up for yet another ďfirst yearĒ somewhere else. This career is a marathon, not a sprint, settle into a pace and be patient. FDX is not immune to failure like some people seem to think but itís also not on the brink of collapse. I detect a hint of disappointment in your post that maybe FDX doesnít ďfeelĒ like the place you built it up in your mind to be. I dealt with that too. Itís just a company... they pay me and Iím happy. My QOL is defined by my time with my family and friends and I build my work schedule around my life, not the other way around.

If you feel like you really have to jump ship, the sooner the better for obvious reasons. Personally, unless I see some major dire warning signs theyíll have to pry this job from my cold, dead hands. Good luck whichever direction you choose.

FXLAX
01-18-2020, 09:53 AM
If a flight takes off at midnight and flies to noon with sunrise being 6am are you guys calling that 50% day flying? Well, to me that isnt day flying, that horrible (not sure if that applies, just was my experience at ACMI)


No, that sounds like an international trip.

Iím not sure 100% because itís only anecdotal, but when I talk to guys here, day flying is generally considered any domestic trip that has leg(s) starting around 6am or later and landing before around midnight. For example, a trip that shows at or after 6am, flies to a hub, turns and lands before midnight. And international trips donít count as itís going to cross many time zones and turn around your body clock anyway. International here doesnít seem that much different than at passenger airlines except that here itís more like multiple international trips strung together with layovers that are much longer, and hence the trips are longer.

DirtyPurple
01-18-2020, 12:52 PM
Iím roughly 3 years into FDX. Iíve got military friends at every flavor of airline, all across the country. Each of them has some positive and some negative things to say about their particular carrier. Itís really cool to see how each of us manages the life/work balance with regard to commuting or living in base, which airplane to fly and when, etc. Iíve discovered through listening to themÖthere is no one right answer for any family. There are many great ways to make it work, and as was stating previously in this thread, it totally depends on what I value when making those decisions.

If someone else values different things in life, Iím in no position to judge them right or wrong. Itís just different. And I hope they are senior to me. 😉

And with the FDX doom & gloom thread, I feel the same way. If someone feels spooked because the news is telling them we will be taken over by Wal-Mart or Amazonian robots, Iím not sure itís my place to change their mind. I donít know the future, but my eyeball tells me Iím in a great position with a great company. It does have issues, to be sure, but overall, we invest in infrastructure and fleet modernization to keep up with whatever the geopolitics and the global economy will give us next. The problems I see from the flight deck perspective are small, not massive cracks of a crumbling mega logistics giant.

Iíve got buddies who currently have multiple offers from other majors, and are swimming in the pool of 200 @ FDX. ďWhat should I do?Ē I tell them to start at the first airline that hires them. There is no real decision to be made until two airlines have offered CJOs. I have friends in the last 5 months that have either turned down FDX interviews, or who have been hired at FDX, and then started at UAL/DAL/AAL. They read the news, and politely tell me theyíd rather Ďtake the sure thingí with the pax carrier than chance it with the crumbling remnants of FDX.

Again, not my place to change their mind. Iím rooting for all of us to find the place where we can have a high QoL, and I realize that cargo simply isnít that place for some people. But Iíve told them, if you leave your carrier every time there is an economical speedbump, youíd never get more than 5 years of seniority at any one airline. Itís all a cycle.

To the OP: I couldnít imagine flying with pax & FAs for the next 25+ yrs, and doing narrowbody type flying for most of that time. No thank you. Iíd prefer to ride out the inevitable airline cycle in my widebody international life. Iím not saying itís the grandest, but holy crap, itís as close to a rockstar as Iíve seen or heard of. You can easily weather the narrowbody night hub turn storm you currently find yourself inÖyou are literally one system bid away from changing that. If you just canít tear yourself away from drooling over the massive retirements at a pax carrier, more power to you buddy. Hope you find a situation where youíre not second guessing yourself.

BrulesRulez
01-18-2020, 04:27 PM
Stay at FedEx. We are still profitable.



At some time in the future, a Von Mises crack up boom or a Hyman Minsky moment will come. You'd rather be here than a pax carrier when society figures out that the pancakes they've stacked have flattened to the thickness of tortillas. And the consequences of government debt cannot be put off forever.



The barriers to entry in this business will enable us to survive more easily than the passenger carriers. Much of the passenger carrying is discretionary travel. Much of the business travel could go to video conferencing in a depression. But I doubt Brick and Mortar will make a comeback.



Still, more freight will move to trucks. And ships. I couldn't foresee the impact of a bigger and better Panama Canal when I came here.



​​​​But the barriers to entry in this business are sizeable. After the next downturn, I doubt Amazon's access to capital will be as easy as it has been till now. Their profitability may not be sufficient to fund their desired expansion of infrastructure.



Buy that Zoom stock now! Video conferencing is the future.

Huck
01-19-2020, 03:41 AM
"the crumbling remnants of FDX."

All because our profit was not as high as predicted. Not losses, profit.

Hope those ninnies stay away from here. Better tell them that the pax carriers can be a dam scary place too sometimes.

MEMFO4Ever
01-19-2020, 04:01 AM
"the crumbling remnants of FDX."

All because our profit was not as high as predicted. Not losses, profit.

Hope those ninnies stay away from here. Better tell them that the pax carriers can be a dam scary place too sometimes.

Except you know that this career is going away eventually. Probably cargo before pax, but either way it is a matter of when, not if. Starting to consider that possibility before hitching one's cart to a specific horse is good planning IMO. Purple is no different than any other public company. It makes sense to keep it running, until it doesn't.

Huck
01-19-2020, 04:18 AM
Actually I donít know that.

I was an aerospace engineer before I was a pilot, you see.

The financial incentive is just not great enough. Thatís why trains still have two crew members......

Thrust Hold
01-19-2020, 04:54 AM
Actually I donít know that.

I was an aerospace engineer before I was a pilot, you see.

The financial incentive is just not great enough. Thatís why trains still have two crew members......

Not for long:

https://fortune.com/2019/07/29/autonomous-trains-challenges/

klondike
01-19-2020, 05:01 AM
I don't blame you for thinking that. I tell my friends wanting to come to FedEx this... "there's no worse place to be junior......Ē

.
With all due respect and with no offense intended- Some of you guys really have no idea sometimes. Comments like this tell me you have never worked for a Regional airline. Iím not going to argue that being junior at FedEx doesnít have a suck quotient, but being junior at any Regional is a REAL suck that trumps any suck that FedEx might have.

Ihateusernames
01-19-2020, 05:11 AM
With all due respect and with no offense intended- Some of you guys really have no idea sometimes. Comments like this tell me you have never worked for a Regional airline. Iím not going to argue that being junior at FedEx doesnít have a suck quotient, but being junior at any Regional is a REAL suck that trumps any suck that FedEx might have.



Being junior at the garbage truck company sucks even more. They are comparing FedEx to an airline of "peers". Unless you consider a regional a peer. Sounds like you have no idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

coryk
01-19-2020, 05:20 AM
With all due respect and with no offense intended- Some of you guys really have no idea sometimes. Comments like this tell me you have never worked for a Regional airline. Iím not going to argue that being junior at FedEx doesnít have a suck quotient, but being junior at any Regional is a REAL suck that trumps any suck that FedEx might have.

Actually, I worked for two regional airlines. Then a major big 3 pax airline.

Who would ever compare FDX to a regional? I sure wasnít.

Globemaster2827
01-19-2020, 05:41 AM
I think once you've made it close to 2nd year pay like you are you'd be crazy to leave. It'll cost you $100k to make a move like that... Maybe more. The legacies have hired a ton of young people and you'll be junior to them. You'll be on narrow body pay for several years AFTER clearing 1st year pay.

Yeah... I get it... We had a bad year, BUT there are reasons for it. Namely a Trade War with China that won't last forever. Despite that we're profitable. If an economic downturn does hit because of the Trade War (or whatever) you'd be furloughed at a legacy for sure.

As for making your life better at FedEx, moving to Memphis is an option and if not then yes your life would get better with Seniority.

klondike
01-19-2020, 06:17 AM
Being junior at the garbage truck company sucks even more. They are comparing FedEx to an airline of "peers". Unless you consider a regional a peer. Sounds like you have no idea.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I DO consider being an airline pilot at a Regional being a ďpeerĒ. You are being a condescending jerk with a comment like this one. Arrgghhh!!!!!
Do you really believe you are a better pilot just because you operate an airplane at a Legacy carrier? If you do, you are an arrogant jerk.
Just in case you donít realize it, we are all held to the same standards Pal.

Have a great Sunday.

coryk
01-19-2020, 06:27 AM
I DO consider being an airline pilot at a Regional being a ďpeerĒ. You are being a condescending jerk with a comment like this one. Arrgghhh!!!!!
Do you really believe you are a better pilot just because you operate an airplane at a Legacy carrier? If you do, you are an arrogant jerk.
Just in case you donít realize it, we are all held to the same standards Pal.

Have a great Sunday.

I think youíre missing the point. Nobody is being condescending towards regional guys. I was one myself. Weíre just comparing being junior here vs. another big 3-4 pax airline. Thatís all. No need to flip out.

Thrust Hold
01-19-2020, 06:37 AM
I say jump ship. There are 200 guys/gals doing laps in the pool that would love to have your problems. Be kind. Donít let em drown out there. ;)

Elevation
01-19-2020, 07:51 AM
I have a degree, clean history, heavy, international PIC experience, recommendations, management and training experience, etc. FedEx turned me down. For better or worse that was their call to make. Them's the breaks. I say this so you know that my response will most likely NOT affect my chances with FedEx.

If you're thinking about walking away from your job, by all means get the heck out of FedEx. Mistakes happen, and you're in the wrong position. Although FedEx certainly has dirty laundry, you're leaving the happiest pilot group in aviation. So be prepared to find the same malaise at your next job. Do your research next time and be honest with yourself about who you are. Perhaps aviation isn't for you?

Elevation
01-19-2020, 07:56 AM
I DO consider being an airline pilot at a Regional being a “peer”. You are being a condescending jerk with a comment like this one. Arrgghhh!!!!!
Do you really believe you are a better pilot just because you operate an airplane at a Legacy carrier? If you do, you are an arrogant jerk.
Just in case you don’t realize it, we are all held to the same standards Pal.

Have a great Sunday.
Regionals are peers, but that doesn't really matter. Someone will find a way to look down their nose at you no matter what, so try not to let this stuff get under your skin. You'll make it whatever legacy and then someone will find a way to say that they flew planes with pointier noses, higher takeoff weights, dirtier seats or cleaner haircuts. The only way to win this game is not to play. Also, I don't think the guys were snubbing you or regionals, but that doesn't really matter either.

abides
01-19-2020, 09:42 AM
frddrvr:

I left a national pax airline with almost two years of seniority to come here. In general there are a few good reasons and they have so far been proven to be sound.

1: block vs. paid hours is unmatched against any passenger operation (unless you live on rsv) I blocked 900 hours in a year, thatís too much when your average stage length is 2:32.
2: wide body pay/pay in general. We only operate about 100 airplanes that donít pay wide body rates. Ask your UAL/DAL/AA friends, how many are getting wide body assignments on their first day, within a year?
2a: Options. You can fly what you want to fly. Domestic line, international single departure, hub turns, days, reserve. Pick something that fits your lifestyle. Hint, thatís going to change eventually. The last thing I wanted was to be stuck somewhere after 20 years flying the same old plane/route/system Iíve been on and nowhere to go. At FX I have variety.
3: FLEXIBLE: this would have been number one if I realized how much I needed it and appreciate it now that Iím settling in. I can recycle my whole schedule if Iím willing to put in the work in OT. Or I can take most of the month off. Either way, itís my decision.
4. The vacation system. Itís unmatched in our industry. The same 2 weeks of vacation I got at my last company was worth 1/2 as much and couldnít expand/shrink or slide.
5: no passengers.
6: DH commuting. Iím west coast, so having some commuting architecture to ease the pain was paramount. This was more of a requirement for me, but Iíve seen how much of a benefit it is since having a chance to live it.

I encourage you to do what you want, but if youíre willing to leave because some know-it-all writer decided they want to further their earnings (shorts on FDX) by writing an inflammatory article meant to target FDX and captivate thirsty investors with pro-amazon garbage, that just means your skin is too thin.

Trust me and others on this thread when we say the grass is grass is not always greener. Prepare to lose earnings, days of your life, patience, and flexibility in exchange for a double-breasted coat and hat. And have fun working every holiday, having no time off in the summer, and flying 3 times more block for your money.

Now, there are benifits to working at a pax carrier. Non rev for you and your family is notably the best. But let me tell you about that too. Load factors on average are 85%. There often arenít enough seats on a plane to plan any kind of family trip and if you do, youíre at the mercy of one cancelled flight (even at another airline) that can ruin your whole plan. Buyer beware. Compare apples to apples.

And if youíre on the 757, the 777 and 767 training from 19-01 will pull about 15-20 per month for the next few months. Your stock is going up, even if there are no new bodies in our seat, the people above you are moving up.

Having done it before, I only ask that you seriously evaluate your decision before turning in your safety Vest.

The Duke
01-19-2020, 09:51 AM
I’m starting to think automation and reduction of pilots in the flight deck will occur much more rapidly at the pax carriers. The driving force behind automation is to reduce the required number of pilots in order to reduce costs. If you look at the big 2 air freight haulers here domestically (US), between FedEx and UPS there are about 8000 pilots. Take a look at the Legacy carriers. Roughly 45,000 pilot positions spread about between just the big 3. Those are a lot of cost units that can be quickly eliminated to drive down labor costs (they represent a much larger percentage and chunk of labor costs relative to air freight haulers). If and when the technology is here to safely eliminate one or both pilots, I suspect it will take hold more aggressively on the pax side of the house. See the recent automated takeoff performed by Airbus? What kind of plane was that?

Ihateusernames
01-19-2020, 09:53 AM
I DO consider being an airline pilot at a Regional being a ďpeerĒ. You are being a condescending jerk with a comment like this one. Arrgghhh!!!!!

Do you really believe you are a better pilot just because you operate an airplane at a Legacy carrier? If you do, you are an arrogant jerk.

Just in case you donít realize it, we are all held to the same standards Pal.



Have a great Sunday.



Regional pilots are not my peers for regards to career progression and contract improvements. That's what I mean by peers. Sorry for the confusion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

fightandflight
01-19-2020, 05:15 PM
Iím starting to think automation and reduction of pilots in the flight deck will occur much more rapidly at the pax carriers. The driving force behind automation is to reduce the required number of pilots in order to reduce costs. If you look at the big 2 air freight haulers here domestically (US), between FedEx and UPS there are about 8000 pilots. Take a look at the Legacy carriers. Roughly 45,000 pilot positions spread about between just the big 3. Those are a lot of cost units that can be quickly eliminated to drive down labor costs (they represent a much larger percentage and chunk of labor costs relative to air freight haulers). If and when the technology is here to safely eliminate one or both pilots, I suspect it will take hold more aggressively on the pax side of the house. See the recent automated takeoff performed by Airbus? What kind of plane was that?

I agree with you. I see distinct advantages to autonomous feeder aircraft into small airports, but when it comes to rolling this out in heavy aircraft I donít think the passenger carriers are as safe as people think. These are likely going to be aircraft designed for the task, not some retrofit that can fly a sim, and the business case for supporting that kind of undertaking is not there for an airplane built exclusively for cargo. Sure, they might throw a pilot up there for a year to appease people, but when it comes it is coming for us all. This new generation might hesitate to get a drivers license, but theyíll have no issues getting on an autonomous airplane....especially at a discount! Bottom line - nothing to worry about until those autonomous feeders start operating so unless you are 16 I think you would be crazy to leave FedEx.

MEMA300
01-19-2020, 05:22 PM
I agree with you. I see distinct advantages to autonomous feeder aircraft into small airports, but when it comes to rolling this out in heavy aircraft I donít think the passenger carriers are as safe as people think. These are likely going to be aircraft designed for the task, not some retrofit that can fly a sim, and the business case for supporting that kind of undertaking is not there for an airplane built exclusively for cargo. Sure, they might throw a pilot up there for a year to appease people, but when it comes it is coming for us all. This new generation might hesitate to get a drivers license, but theyíll have no issues getting on an autonomous airplane....especially at a discount! Bottom line - nothing to worry about until those autonomous feeders start operating so unless you are 16 I think you would be crazy to leave FedEx.

when the cans come to the airplane autonomously on their dollies is the time
to be worried. Fdx can do that with no gov intervention....

Cubatticus
01-20-2020, 05:19 PM
As a new guy here commuting to reserve I very much appreciate this discussion and the points that have been discussed. I’d be lying if I said that it has been nothing but rainbows and sunshine or that I haven’t had doubts. There is bad press everywhere and it’s easy to get caught up in that mess if you don’t know any different. The perspective of the dudes who’ve been through this already is priceless. That said, I believe in the business model and think (hope) the Amazon threat is over hyped. I am extremely fortunate to have started before the music stopped and hope the hiring starts again soon for the sake of everyone swimming in the pool.

FTv3
01-20-2020, 07:29 PM
To the OP,

UPS guy here. I was in a similar place my first year. Got slapped with nite hub flying through peak. Couldnít sleep days on which resulted in crap sleep days off. Was miserable and started to consider walking off even without another class date after about 4-5 weeks. By chance, got a lucky trip trade into a long international trip. Completely different job, schedule, crews, sleep cycles, etc. Shortly after I got on year 2 pay (we have <$50/hr yr 1), got more international and some day stuff and the job was completely unrecognizable and since then Iíve tasted a lot of the overall variety. Iíd highly encourage you to stick around and taste some of the variability Fx has to offer before jumping ship. If you are worried about the Amazon thing, fwiw, a lot of guys at brown think itís a better position to be in, vis-ŗ-vis, severing ties with Bezos vs going all in as we have. To finish, Iíve gone back to nite hub stuff from time to time and it gets easier as you learn what your body can and will do. Still hate it but not the days off and commutability they can afford.

Good luck!!

Daniel Larusso
01-20-2020, 09:50 PM
This website has archives back to 2010. I think the remnants of flightinfo.com has archives back to 2001. For perspective sake on industry news, trends, enlightened pilot angst of the moment, etc it might be helpful to take a random walk through that stuff. Not necessarily to find anything specific relative to 2020, but to give what youíre hearing/thinking balance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KnightFlyer
01-21-2020, 11:02 AM
SARS part deux


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BMEP100
01-21-2020, 12:02 PM
Retiring United guy here.

Over 40 years in this business, Iíve learned a couple things.

Forget about any crystal ball predictions when it comes to career choices or investments.

Put family, QOL, and your health first.

If if you do the job just for the money and donít enjoy it, youíll be miserable and so will your family.

I had a class date with Seaboard (it became Tigers, then FedEx), a month before Tigers bought them and laid off a bunch of new hires and cancelled all classes. 1979.

I continued flying freight until 1987 when I went to CAL. That move cost me a LOT in seniority and pay (initially), but my QOL and health improved greatly. My family was sooo happy.

At the time CAL pay was dismal, as were predictions for their future. I didnít care. I liked the flying and lived in base. (Cal was the first airline offer I got, followed closely by American and TWA and Western).

Several years later, all my friends at the Cargo op were looking for jobs. (Nobody saw that coming)

Ya just never know. Deal with what you know and can control.

PurpleToolBox
01-24-2020, 02:44 PM
The problem now, is due to the slowdown in hiring, you might be at the bottom for much longer than expected. It's also hard to pass up rapid seniority at other carriers just from massive retirements each year alone. .

People being added beneath you does not equal seniority. Seniority is how close you get to the top.

Four years ago I did a comparison of the airlines and looked specifically at hiring from retirements as a percent of the crew force. Not one airline, now even Delta's with their hiring boom, exceeded FedEx. Only United in the last four years of my career exceeded FedEx's retirements as a percent of the crew force -- AT THAT TIME. Since Fedex hired a bunch last year, the percentages would be skewed a bit. But even when I did the math, the retirements as a percent were within a tenth of each other.

Roughly looking at the numbers today, FDX 35% and DAL 41% planned retirements of the current crew force in the next ten years.

C2078
01-24-2020, 03:06 PM
People being added beneath you does not equal seniority. Seniority is how close you get to the top.



Four years ago I did a comparison of the airlines and looked specifically at hiring from retirements as a percent of the crew force. Not one airline, now even Delta's with their hiring boom, exceeded FedEx. Only United in the last four years of my career exceeded FedEx's retirements as a percent of the crew force -- AT THAT TIME. Since Fedex hired a bunch last year, the percentages would be skewed a bit. But even when I did the math, the retirements as a percent were within a demical of each other.


Tell that to the people that have gotten furloughed over the years!! The reality is BOTH bottom and above are important, but bottom provides insurance. And while you are looking back, everyone is looking forward. The ship has sailed on Delta for the average guy (not if you are real young), NO ONE will provide as rapid seniority ascension as AA, not even remotely close!! And one would think the complete disarray is going to be fixed eventually (good steps taken by new planning guy). Fedex is right about average as far as seniority progression is concerned, just as UPS is.

While seniority progression is very important, for a new guy people below you is just as or more important. If a person really wants to work for a particular company, then it really doesnít matter. I would say most folks pay attention to hiring trends, and while I personally believe the current Fedex hiring slowdown will not last long, others might think otherwise. Everyone is currently hiring pretty much at max capacity, including Brown, while Fedex stands out. Just bad optics.

I am very much rooting for FedEx, but the current optics simply might sway some people, just a bad time to be hitting a funk when the pilot shortage situation is about to get more acute.

Fdxlag2
01-24-2020, 04:11 PM
Tell that to the people that have gotten furloughed over the years!! The reality is BOTH bottom and above are important, but bottom provides insurance. And while you are looking back, everyone is looking forward. The ship has sailed on Delta for the average guy (not if you are real young), NO ONE will provide as rapid seniority ascension as AA, not even remotely close!! And one would think the complete disarray is going to be fixed eventually (good steps taken by new planning guy). Fedex is right about average as far as seniority progression is concerned, just as UPS is.

While seniority progression is very important, for a new guy people below you is just as or more important. If a person really wants to work for a particular company, then it really doesnít matter. I would say most folks pay attention to hiring trends, and while I personally believe the current Fedex hiring slowdown will not last long, others might think otherwise. Everyone is currently hiring pretty much at max capacity, including Brown, while Fedex stands out. Just bad optics.

I am very much rooting for FedEx, but the current optics simply might sway some people, just a bad time to be hitting a funk when the pilot shortage situation is about to get more acute.

I can agree with most of this, but also in the seniority equation is Fleet Mix and Route availability. Fedex has a very high WB to NB ratio topped only by UPS with their 100% WB pay. It sure seems my options to fly non code share to Europe on AA and Delta are declining.

C2078
01-24-2020, 04:28 PM
I can agree with most of this, but also in the seniority equation is Fleet Mix and Route availability. Fedex has a very high WB to NB ratio topped only by UPS with their 100% WB pay. It sure seems my options to fly non code share to Europe on AA and Delta are declining.


We are in a good place. Only ďcorrectingĒ the people under you argument. Just one comment, the single pay scale at UPS was very attractive to me. Just saying...

Fdxlag2
01-24-2020, 04:46 PM
We are in a good place. Only ďcorrectingĒ the people under you argument. Just one comment, the single pay scale at UPS was very attractive to me. Just saying...

All parts of the seniority argument. I like the UPS single pay scale too. But you can make a quality of life and seniority argument for two. I love seeing guys senior to me chase the big bucks and upgrade at 100%. If you find a niche at FDX it is nice to know you can get some artificial seniority by giving up some money.

PurpleToolBox
01-24-2020, 06:27 PM
All parts of the seniority argument. I like the UPS single pay scale too. But you can make a quality of life and seniority argument for two. I love seeing guys senior to me chase the big bucks and upgrade at 100%. If you find a niche at FDX it is nice to know you can get some artificial seniority by giving up some money.

But the jokes on them. 757CA doesn't pay as much as 777FO. And most of the 757 new hires are on New Hire Junior Activation Pay (think passover pay). So it is only the 757CAs that are getting screwed.

Thrust Hold
01-24-2020, 07:26 PM
But the jokes on them. 757CA doesn't pay as much as 777FO. And most of the 757 new hires are on New Hire Junior Activation Pay (think passover pay). So it is only the 757CAs that are getting screwed.

:rolleyes: Keep thinking that. :D

Pullout
01-24-2020, 08:48 PM
But the jokes on them. 757CA doesn't pay as much as 777FO. And most of the 757 new hires are on New Hire Junior Activation Pay (think passover pay). So it is only the 757CAs that are getting screwed.

Glad you think this. I can believe Passover pay though.

PurpleToolBox
01-25-2020, 07:01 AM
:rolleyes: Keep thinking that. :D

What did I say was wrong?

Thrust Hold
01-25-2020, 07:22 AM
What did I say was wrong?

"757CA doesn't pay as much as a 777FO"

That's a very blanket statement that has many more variables involved and may not be accurate.

C2078
01-25-2020, 07:27 AM
But the jokes on them. 757CA doesn't pay as much as 777FO. And most of the 757 new hires are on New Hire Junior Activation Pay (think passover pay). So it is only the 757CAs that are getting screwed.


Maybe I canít read, but, for example, a 4th year guy/gal, it sure seems to me $255.73 is more than $189.22.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200125/5c8c897b7afa0f6032ee10ac9ff0145b.jpg

Thrust Hold
01-25-2020, 08:06 AM
In order for a 777FO to out earn a 757CA, he/she must:

1) Be fairly senior in seat.
2) Stay on the road quite a bit (TAFB)
3) Credit significantly more to make up the Pay Rate difference.


A few samples from the Annual Salary Survey:

1. FedEx
Year 4/5 75 CA
Live in base and bid reserve.

Hourly: 258k
Per Diem: Spent
Nights away: 19
Block: 57.6 hrs

2. FedEx year 3-4 (757 Capt)
Live in Base
Bid Reserve when not Instructing
Pick up extra reserve and standby periods sitting at home

Pay - 320k
DC - 22,900k
Per diem - Almost none since I barely fly

Block - 61.2
24 nights away from home

3. FDX 6/7 year 757 Capt
302 block
87 landings
99 days on the road
Mid $300s all inclusive.

4. FedEx - Year 3

4 months @ 767 FO
3 months @ Training pay
5 months @ 757 CA

Total: $321k (Gross + DC)
Gross: $298k
DC: $22.9k
Per Diem: $8k
Block: 410 hours
Credit: 1,361 hours


All of these guys/gals are relatively junior. I know that we have some 777FO's clearing $400K, but those are extremely senior guys/gals and are far from the norm. Plus, if your a 777FO at 7+ years seniority you could've already held WB Captain. Too each his own, but I'd say that you'd have to be better than 50% in seat and working many more days as a 777FO to match or out earn a 757CA.

Shaman
01-25-2020, 09:26 AM
In order for a 777FO to out earn a 757CA, he/she must:

1) Be fairly senior in seat.
2) Stay on the road quite a bit (TAFB)
3) Credit significantly more to make up the Pay Rate difference.


A few samples from the Annual Salary Survey:

1. FedEx
Year 4/5 75 CA
Live in base and bid reserve.

Hourly: 258k
Per Diem: Spent
Nights away: 19
Block: 57.6 hrs

2. FedEx year 3-4 (757 Capt)
Live in Base
Bid Reserve when not Instructing
Pick up extra reserve and standby periods sitting at home

Pay - 320k
DC - 22,900k
Per diem - Almost none since I barely fly

Block - 61.2
24 nights away from home

3. FDX 6/7 year 757 Capt
302 block
87 landings
99 days on the road
Mid $300s all inclusive.

4. FedEx - Year 3

4 months @ 767 FO
3 months @ Training pay
5 months @ 757 CA

Total: $321k (Gross + DC)
Gross: $298k
DC: $22.9k
Per Diem: $8k
Block: 410 hours
Credit: 1,361 hours


All of these guys/gals are relatively junior. I know that we have some 777FO's clearing $400K, but those are extremely senior guys/gals and are far from the norm. Plus, if your a 777FO at 7+ years seniority you could've already held WB Captain. Too each his own, but I'd say that you'd have to be better than 50% in seat and working many more days as a 777FO to match or out earn a 757CA.


;)shhhhhhhh!!! You cannot make any money in the left seat of the 75. Its nothing but eye bleeding 3 leg turns in the middle of the night. Stay far far away. Move along nothing to see here.

BluePAX
01-25-2020, 10:00 AM
What did I say was wrong?
I personally know many who are not getting activation pay on the 75, myself included.

PurpleToolBox
01-25-2020, 11:33 AM
;)shhhhhhhh!!! You cannot make any money in the left seat of the 75. Its nothing but eye bleeding 3 leg turns in the middle of the night. Stay far far away. Move along nothing to see here.

That's not what was said. I've been on both, I refuse to argue. On the 777 you can credit much more than 6CH per day. Along with International Override, it adds up. You're working more on the 757.

C2078
01-25-2020, 12:22 PM
People still including per diem in income [emoji2357]

gatorhater
01-25-2020, 02:10 PM
People still including per diem in income [emoji2357]

If it comes into my bank from FedEx it is income. If I choose to eat cheap and save for golf balls thatís my choice. If I choose to heat healthy and more expensively, also my choice.

I donít really care what the IRS calls it for tax purposes.

PurpleToolBox
01-25-2020, 04:41 PM
I personally know many who are not getting activation pay on the 75, myself included.

Why arenít you? Are you a new hire? Hasnít someone junior to you activated on a widebody?

BluePAX
01-25-2020, 06:15 PM
Why arenít you? Are you a new hire? Hasnít someone junior to you activated on a widebody?

Newhire. Several of us did not bid all WB's before the 75 for various reasons, in fact I don't know if anyone in our class got the extra pay.

Adlerdriver
01-25-2020, 07:52 PM
Maybe I canít read, but, for example, a 4th year guy/gal, it sure seems to me $255.73 is more than $189.22. If you're only using section 3 of the CBA to make a pay comparison, you're really not going to get the full picture.

In order for a 777FO to out earn a 757CA, he/she must:

1) Be fairly senior in seat. - Not true
2) Stay on the road quite a bit (TAFB) - Also not true
3) Credit significantly more to make up the Pay Rate difference. - This is obviously required for someone on a lower pay rate to make as much or more than someone on a higher pay rate.

Too each his own, but I'd say that you'd have to be better than 50% in seat and working many more days as a 777FO to match or out earn a 757CA.
I'll start out by saying that I'm not trying to convince anyone that one seat/job is better than another. I just bothers me that some of our pilots are making decisions to upgrade or transition to a particular fleet with partial or inaccurate information. Obviously if you're living in domicile and don't mind being on reserve (if you can hold it), upgrading at 100% to the first Captain seat available might be a good decision. If someone can hold their hometown or nice domestic double-deadheads, wants to be an LCA, doesn't like long-haul, likes domestic AM hub-turns or just HAS to have those 4-strips - then maybe 757 CA is exactly where you want to be. But if you think the higher pay rate in section 3 is adequate justification to do that job, then I suggest you look a bit closer.

It's all about pay per day. If you want to get a bit more subjective, then it's also important to look at what you're doing on those days to earn that pay.

Since someone threw out 4th year pay numbers, I'll use those along with the 777 and 757 bid packs for Feb 2020.
777 line 2029: Not a cherry RFO line, no front or back DHs. Held by a 777 FO hired in Oct 2016.
18 days off (10 work days) - Line Credit Hours = 74:23
True pay including Block Override once the trip is flown = 82:23
This line is a single departure trip that works 10 days, 5 revenue legs with 236 hours TAFB and 1 commute.
Every CH has an $8.00 bump thanks to the international override.

757 line 1179: Held by 757 CA hired in Sep 2016.
First line I could find held by someone with similar seniority that wasn't bought up.
15 days off (13 work days) - Line Credit Hours = 69:39
True pay - N/A, the line pays what it pays unless there are disruptions but I'm not factoring those in in either case)
This line works 13 days, 22 revenue legs with 234 hours TAFB
This line has at least 4 commutes with two unpaid days in MEM between trips.

777 line pays 8:14 per day x ($189.22 + $8.00) = $1624.76 per day of work ($254.64 more more day than the 757 CA)
757 line pays 5:21 per day x $255.73 = $1370.12 per day of work

So, yeah - take the line value and multiply by pay rate and that busy 757 Captain is raking in an extra $1563.95 per month. But, I submit that doesn't tell the whole story. He's making that extra money in exchange for 3 extra days of work (not even counting unpaid days in MEM), 17 more flights and 3 more commutes than his 777 FO counterpart.

FYI, the monthly pay calculations favor the FO as the years of service increase. By year 10, using the same two lines, the total pay for each pilot per month is within about $170 of each other. Obviously pay per day for the 777 FO is eclipsing that for the 757 CA for that to be the case. Get to the 15 year end of the pay scale and that just gets better.

If that 777 FO decides to work some carryover and make his total work days equal to the 757 CA - those 3 extra days are going to pay at least 6:24 per day (probably more) for an additional 19:12 CH for the month. But I'll go the minimum to be conservative. He still makes about $170 more per day.

19:12 x ($189.22 + $8.00) = an additional $3786.62 for the month which now makes the 777 FO's pay exceed the 757 CA's pay by $2222.67 for the month over the same number of days worked. To just match the 757 CA's pay, all he needs is about 8 extra CH per month (i.e. 1 slightly above average C/O day). That's still less work days than the CA. Not "stay on the road quite a bit" or "work many more days" than the 757 CA.

Hawking open time for a make-up trip or bidding for a few extra days of carryover allows that 777 FO to work on his own terms when it suits him, still not work any more days than the 757 CA and certainly work more efficiently doing much less actual work, IMO. Most importantly, in the end he gets paid more for the same # of days worked.

Or, he chooses to enhance his QOL, work less and get paid less at the end of the month or year. But he was paid more to do less on each day he worked.

Or, he does a little of either choice from month to month and at the end of the year, his pay is very likely going to match or exceed his new hire classmate who opted for the first available upgrade.

No right way or wrong way. There usually is something for everyone here. Bid what you want to fly - but just make sure you've accurately assessed your options and are doing it for the right reasons and not a simple pay rate comparison.

Shaman
01-25-2020, 11:25 PM
If you're only using section 3 of the CBA to make a pay comparison, you're really not going to get the full picture.


I'll start out by saying that I'm not trying to convince anyone that one seat/job is better than another. I just bothers me that some of our pilots are making decisions to upgrade or transition to a particular fleet with partial or inaccurate information. Obviously if you're living in domicile and don't mind being on reserve (if you can hold it), upgrading at 100% to the first Captain seat available might be a good decision. If someone can hold their hometown or nice domestic double-deadheads, wants to be an LCA, doesn't like long-haul, likes domestic AM hub-turns or just HAS to have those 4-strips - then maybe 757 CA is exactly where you want to be. But if you think the higher pay rate in section 3 is adequate justification to do that job, then I suggest you look a bit closer.

It's all about pay per day. If you want to get a bit more subjective, then it's also important to look at what you're doing on those days to earn that pay.

Since someone threw out 4th year pay numbers, I'll use those along with the 777 and 757 bid packs for Feb 2020.
777 line 2029: Not a cherry RFO line, no front or back DHs. Held by a 777 FO hired in Oct 2016.
18 days off (10 work days) - Line Credit Hours = 74:23
True pay including Block Override once the trip is flown = 82:23
This line is a single departure trip that works 10 days, 5 revenue legs with 236 hours TAFB and 1 commute.
Every CH has an $8.00 bump thanks to the international override.

757 line 1179: Held by 757 CA hired in Sep 2016.
First line I could find held by someone with similar seniority that wasn't bought up.
15 days off (13 work days) - Line Credit Hours = 69:39
True pay - N/A, the line pays what it pays unless there are disruptions but I'm not factoring those in in either case)
This line works 13 days, 22 revenue legs with 234 hours TAFB
This line has at least 4 commutes with two unpaid days in MEM between trips.

777 line pays 8:14 per day x ($189.22 + $8.00) = $1624.76 per day of work ($254.64 more more day than the 757 CA)
757 line pays 5:21 per day x $255.73 = $1370.12 per day of work

So, yeah - take the line value and multiply by pay rate and that busy 757 Captain is raking in an extra $1563.95 per month. But, I submit that doesn't tell the whole story. He's making that extra money in exchange for 3 extra days of work (not even counting unpaid days in MEM), 17 more flights and 3 more commutes than his 777 FO counterpart.

FYI, the monthly pay calculations favor the FO as the years of service increase. By year 10, using the same two lines, the total pay for each pilot per month is within about $170 of each other. Obviously pay per day for the 777 FO is eclipsing that for the 757 CA for that to be the case. Get to the 15 year end of the pay scale and that just gets better.

If that 777 FO decides to work some carryover and make his total work days equal to the 757 CA - those 3 extra days are going to pay at least 6:24 per day (probably more) for an additional 19:12 CH for the month. But I'll go the minimum to be conservative. He still makes about $170 more per day.

19:12 x ($189.22 + $8.00) = an additional $3786.62 for the month which now makes the 777 FO's pay exceed the 757 CA's pay by $2222.67 for the month over the same number of days worked. To just match the 757 CA's pay, all he needs is about 8 extra CH per month (i.e. 1 slightly above average C/O day). That's still less work days than the CA. Not "stay on the road quite a bit" or "work many more days" than the 757 CA.

Hawking open time for a make-up trip or bidding for a few extra days of carryover allows that 777 FO to work on his own terms when it suits him, still not work any more days than the 757 CA and certainly work more efficiently doing much less actual work, IMO. Most importantly, in the end he gets paid more for the same # of days worked.

Or, he chooses to enhance his QOL, work less and get paid less at the end of the month or year. But he was paid more to do less on each day he worked.

Or, he does a little of either choice from month to month and at the end of the year, his pay is very likely going to match or exceed his new hire classmate who opted for the first available upgrade.

No right way or wrong way. There usually is something for everyone here. Bid what you want to fly - but just make sure you've accurately assessed your options and are doing it for the right reasons and not a simple pay rate comparison.

Yep you just cant argue with these numbers. Please for the sake of someone you love inform them of this reality before they make a badly misinformed decision. I speak from experience in the left seat of the 75. You will be tired and watch as 777 FOs look at your meager W2 and mock how pathetic it is.

additionally, Adler failed to mention the best aspects of 777 life. You see there will be no cardboard boxes full of processed meat and carbs for you. You will be enjoying several hot meals per flight and did i mention there is cake?!!!

Again as someone who is currently in the 75 left seat I implore you (particularly if you're senior to me) to bid to avoid. Your bank account and your waistline will thank you.

HvypurplePylot
01-26-2020, 10:42 AM
Yep you just cant argue with these numbers. Please for the sake of someone you love inform them of this reality before they make a badly misinformed decision. I speak from experience in the left seat of the 75. You will be tired and watch as 777 FOs look at your meager W2 and mock how pathetic it is.

additionally, Adler failed to mention the best aspects of 777 life. You see there will be no cardboard boxes full of processed meat and carbs for you. You will be enjoying several hot meals per flight and did i mention there is cake?!!!

Again as someone who is currently in the 75 left seat I implore you (particularly if you're senior to me) to bid to avoid. Your bank account and your waistline will thank you.
If we have pilots here that mock fellow pilots w2s that is about as sad of a statement of our pilot group that Iíve read. We need to be better than that.

Dakota
01-26-2020, 11:07 AM
..............You will be enjoying several hot meals per flight and did i mention there is cake?!!!

Again as someone who is currently in the 75 left seat I implore you (particularly if you're senior to me) to bid to avoid. Your bank account and your waistline will thank you.

The cake isn't going to help the "waistline" complaint. "Several hot meals per flight?" Not hardly. At most the option for two.......over a 12 hour period.

PurpleToolBox
01-26-2020, 12:00 PM
The cake isn't going to help the "waistline" complaint. "Several hot meals per flight?" Not hardly. At most the option for two.......over a 12 hour period.

Don't forget the options for yogurts, deli/vegetable/cheese/fruit plates. Those are a meal in themselves.

G550av8or
01-26-2020, 07:00 PM
The beauty about this job, is that there is something for everyone, and there’s something that fits our different stages of life.

The triple is a separate airline within purple. It is gucci and it can have the ability to out earn 75C as an FO.

AdlerDriver makes a great description.

That said, those of us that have had the 10-17 days away in prior gigs, can happily sit reserve in Memphis. With our 2-3 year upgrade. And make soccer practice and dance recitals. I’ll happily trade the hot catered meals (and chocolate cake) for the ability to drop my kid at pre-k every day.

When the kids get older (this is why I came here) I will leave the “awful 75 hub turn” schedule for the chocolate cake.

123456
01-26-2020, 08:05 PM
I personally know many who are not getting activation pay on the 75, myself included.

Why arenít you? Are you a new hire? Hasnít someone junior to you activated on a widebody?

Newhire. Several of us did not bid all WB's before the 75 for various reasons, in fact I don't know if anyone in our class got the extra pay.

Not sure you understand what activation pay is? Are you implying that since you bid 75 before any other fleet and someone junior to you got a widebody, that you should be getting activation pay?

BluePAX
01-26-2020, 08:44 PM
Not sure you understand what activation pay is? Are you implying that since you bid 75 before any other fleet and someone junior to you got a widebody, that you should be getting activation pay?
I believe we are talking about two separate issues. Would have to look up the terminology, perhaps it is Passover pay. We were told that you would have to bid all WB, then 75 last in order to be eligible for it.

Shaman
01-26-2020, 10:28 PM
I personally think that 75CA vs 77FO is not about money, because if the guy or gal with the higher hourly rate chooses to make more money he or she will. All of that has been presented regarding the extra pay involved with international wide body flying is absolutely accurate, but it also neglects to highlight the value of the higher rate. As an example none of those extras apply for sick time, vacation, or training. Additionally, when working on a day off the higher hourly rate x 1.5 is a significant difference (ie $8 int'l override doesn't get a multiplier for working on a day off only the hourly rate does).


So making the choice based on which pays more $$$$ is a lot more subjective than it seems. That said, there ain't no question that the lifestyle differences are STARK!! (BBQ is good, cake is good, and I assure you I've never left anything in Laredo, Shreveport, or Southbend that I am terribly concerned about returning for) And that can bring us back to the original theme of considering jumping ship.


For those who are I would advise you to just give some heavy thought on what you value most professionally and lifestyle wise and do a quick comparison (ON PAPER) between Fedex and the other potential employers. Trying to time seniority or choosing the most "stable" carrier is fool hearty.


Likewise it is best to ignore all the breathless nonsense about the potential demise of Fedex at the hands of Amazon. Basic economics can show that an additional entrant into a market, doesn't mean other market players must/will exit. in fact additional entrants can in fact cause markets to grow. Is anyone seriously putting forth that what basically existed as a duopoly prior to Amazon becoming a "logistics" company has now become a mature overly saturated market?! Seriously?!! We aren't anywhere close to "Perfect Competition (https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/microeconomics/perfect-competition-topic/perfect-competition/a/perfect-competition-and-why-it-matters-cnx)"

E-commerce is an "additional market" for players like Fedex and UPS. Amazon is growing the market not stealing market share and if you think that there's no room for PREMIUM products once the low cost entrant deploys you've clearly not bought a business class ticket on Delta Airlines recently.


So the stay or go decision should be based upon what you want out of your job. The need for what we do isn't going away anytime soon. That's my $.02 YMMV

kronan
01-27-2020, 05:14 AM
Post again in 20-25 years and I'll tell ya which way you should've gone.

Night time isn't for everyone, if you can't manage your sleep. Likely better off at a Pax carrier. (Note-I fly the dreaded 75 double DH schedules. My sleep is usually at the 90-95% of what I get on days off (fitbit tracks), just split into 2 segments)

If you can live in Domicile at your Pax carrier of choice, also a great benefit.

If you want to fly, seems like most Pax lines have a whole lot more flying than I like to do. And every day at work is an adventure in what will the TSA minion say? Will I be randomized or skate. Lots and lots of annoyance\frustrations as I transit through most airports as I get paid to commute to work and accumulate FF miles

123456
01-27-2020, 08:31 PM
I believe we are talking about two separate issues. Would have to look up the terminology, perhaps it is Passover pay. We were told that you would have to bid all WB, then 75 last in order to be eligible for it.

Pretty sure that doesn't apply to new hires as your seats aren't part of the system bid? Not sure but when your class was offered, you get to choose from what's available at that time. So if in your class, even if you bid all WBs first and everybody gets the 75 because thats all they offered, and the next class is all 76/77, you are not eligible for passover pay. I could be totally wrong, but if that was the case, then every other class would be eligible for that. I think its more for system bids and if someone junior to you also gets the award, then you get that extra pay if he activates before you? I'm not sure I'm confusing myself now.. lol..

Flaps50MaxBrake
01-27-2020, 10:30 PM
Since we're unable to hit a like button around here, there's a level headed post with future vision.
Sacrifice a little now for the family and the cream will float to the top before you know it.
Family is the priority. 👍

The beauty about this job, is that there is something for everyone, and thereís something that fits our different stages of life.

The triple is a separate airline within purple. It is gucci and it can have the ability to out earn 75C as an FO.

AdlerDriver makes a great description.

That said, those of us that have had the 10-17 days away in prior gigs, can happily sit reserve in Memphis. With our 2-3 year upgrade. And make soccer practice and dance recitals. Iíll happily trade the hot catered meals (and chocolate cake) for the ability to drop my kid at pre-k every day.

When the kids get older (this is why I came here) I will leave the ďawful 75 hub turnĒ schedule for the chocolate cake.

Sluggo_63
01-28-2020, 04:46 AM
Pretty sure that doesn't apply to new hires as your seats aren't part of the system bid? Not sure but when your class was offered, you get to choose from what's available at that time. So if in your class, even if you bid all WBs first and everybody gets the 75 because thats all they offered, and the next class is all 76/77, you are not eligible for passover pay.You are incorrect. Itís called ďNew Hire Junior Activation Compensation.Ē

CBA 24.F.6.d thru 24.F.7.

whataclub
01-28-2020, 05:18 AM
A good point a friend made to me before I started here which I feel is relevant in the pax. Vs. cargo discussion. You can go to one of the big 3 airlines and if you are lucky you might get a widebody as a new hire. If you donít then you wait a couple of years and you can get a widebody slot and finally make widebody pay, but to earn that wide body pay youíll most likely be having to fly 6+ hours internationally across the ocean at night in one direction or the other. At fedex, you have a much higher probability of getting a widebody slot and widebody pay right away and while youíll still be flying it at night it will be on a one hour flight to Atlanta; as your delta comrades are getting to about Bangor you are arriving at your hotel. Now, Iím very aware of the simplicity and all the variable to that statement, but it illustrates the point of how fedex uses their widebody planes as opposed to the pax airlines, the value you earn in your money, and your likely hood of earning the money sooner. Had I gone to a United or Delta I would probably be flying the 737 for 737 money 3-4 legs a day turning through Orlando with 50% of the plane being sugared out kids going to see Mickey.

hyperone
01-28-2020, 07:47 PM
I'll enlarge on the Big 3 widebody discussion. I don't believe any of the Big 3 have more than 20% of their flying in WB seats. And, it seems more and more of their international flying is being outsource to their codeshare partners, so that number is only going to go down.
Also, the WB left seats at the Big 3 go extremely senior. If you were hired on the leading edge of the current hiring binge and you were in your 20's, you might have a shot at more than 10 years flying WB left seat at a Big 3 company.
Contrast all of that with Fedex. Over 80% of our flying is in WB seats. And with so many folks hired directly into the MD, 76, and 77 there are literally hundreds of folks here who will spend their entire career in a Fedex WB seat. A large percentage of our WB flying isn't international flying, but you'll still get paid WB pay. And, anyone hired in the last 5 years, hopefully, should be able to get into a WB left seat within 5-7 years, and remain in a WB left seat for the remainder of a 20+ year career.
Everyone always concentrates on which airline has the highest pay, but they forget that there are only a select few at the Big 3 who will ever get to see that high pay rate for any length of time. I suggest you think about the long-term career earnings impact of all of the Fedex WB flying available before you jump ship.

PurpleToolBox
01-28-2020, 09:56 PM
We need a hundred or so new hires to put in apps to the big 3. Doing so would generate PRIA records requests to FDX. I suspect that would greatly influence our next contract knowing people were leaving to go to FDX.

MEMA300
01-29-2020, 05:28 AM
We need a hundred or so new hires to put in apps to the big 3. Doing so would generate PRIA records requests to FDX. I suspect that would greatly influence our next contract knowing people were leaving to go to FDX.

This action by alot of pilots in 98 is only thing that saved us after the parking lot debacle.

FedEx Pilot
01-29-2020, 05:37 AM
We need a hundred or so new hires to put in apps to the big 3. Doing so would generate PRIA records requests to FDX. I suspect that would greatly influence our next contract knowing people were leaving to go to FDX.

PRIA record requests only get generated once a person is hired. Applying doesnít trigger them, sorry to burst your bubble, but creative thinking.

PurpleToolBox
01-29-2020, 08:54 AM
PRIA record requests only get generated once a person is hired. Applying doesnít trigger them, sorry to burst your bubble, but creative thinking.
Well crap ... and I meant Legacy carriers not FDX obviously.

I guess we have to encourage all of our very junior new hires to start jumping ship then. The grass is definitely greener. :rolleyes:

123456
01-29-2020, 10:31 AM
You are incorrect. Itís called ďNew Hire Junior Activation Compensation.Ē

CBA 24.F.6.d thru 24.F.7.
Yeah, I read it.. Confusing is an understatement. One line says "this paragraph shall not permit a new hire pilot to change his initial crew status." and the next line says . "If a new hire pilot changes his initial crew position ", well which one is it? Also, filling positions from the "System Bid" is misleading also... and new hires are able to bid for whatever they want, but the plane they want just may not be offered for their class, so another misleading loophole...

UnusualAttitude
01-29-2020, 10:49 AM
Yeah, I read it.. Confusing is an understatement. One line says "this paragraph shall not permit a new hire pilot to change his initial crew status." and the next line says . "If a new hire pilot changes his initial crew position ", well which one is it? Also, filling positions from the "System Bid" is misleading also... and new hires are able to bid for whatever they want, but the plane they want just may not be offered for their class, so another misleading loophole...

I encourage you to share your thoughts on Sec 24 with your reps when the time comes. I have shared multiple times that it is my opinion we have the most restrictive and punitive system bidding language in the industry.

MD11HOG
02-05-2020, 12:27 AM
When was the last FedEx furlough?

Slatsextend
02-06-2020, 05:50 PM
[QUOTE=frddrvr;2958534]Soliciting advice from an anonymous Internet forum might be nuts but here it goes.

Iím relatively new here and consider myself extremely fortunate to be part of the team. FedEx was always my #1 choice but some of that shine is starting to wear off after seeing behind the curtain. That being said, Iím considering brushing off the resume with all of this doom and gloom.

Iím less than 1yr on property and donít know what I donít know. The majority of my buddies fly for the UAL/Delta/AA/SWA and truly think Iím nuts staying on board FedExís sinking ship. I donít have many buddies here to steer me straight with an honest long term perspective of flying for FedEx. I havenít been a fan of the night hub turns but Iím told day flying is doable with a bit of seniority. Does it really get better? So what is the true story? Are we at the bottom of a normal business cycle or do we have our collective heads in the sand? I hope Iím wrong but the headwinds of change donít look favorable.

Iím fortunate to likely have a long career ahead of me and live within driving distance to big domiciles for the other major carriers. Flying purple tails have always been my dream so I canít believe Iím even considering walking away from the best flying job in the world. Have I lost my mind?

Ok man, here it is ............ There are major problems with the passenger carriers, TSA every day, crowded airport terminals and hyped up piece of junk passengers that want a piece of you if they got a bad landing. WHY in this world would you want to leave now ??? Don't be myopic about this kind of thing, this is your chance to get some seniority and enjoy the fruits of your labor dude !!! I started out here as a B727 Flight Engineer, worked my way off that position in about 18 months and when the flying seat came available as an FO was so happy !!! The schedules will always be something to reckon with but you are not going to be junior here for long, keep that in mind. Typically the company in the past has put out these so called warning letters and memos because they have to tell the investors something, rumors all over the place, just keep your position and work on realizing how lucky you are to be in this place, it will get better !!!

wrxpilot
02-06-2020, 06:01 PM
At this point, it would definitely be a very bad idea to leave FedEx for another carrier. The Corona virus is absolutely going to affect world GDP and airline demand, and being at the bottom of a list somewhere like United is NOT the place to be in that circumstance.

Adlerdriver
02-06-2020, 06:03 PM
Slats....
Before the 45 minute edit deadline is over, please go back in and edit your post. Put this [/QUOTE]
after the guy's text you're trying to quote to match the one at the start of his text.

Then at least the readers will understand where your comments start.

11man
02-07-2020, 05:29 PM
I think with corona and global tourism the last thing Iíd think about right now is jumping ship. Remember it always hurts the pax first. And the cargo last if not at all.

HvypurplePylot
02-08-2020, 06:39 AM
I mean if we are going to bring up the corona virus by all means fly for a carrier that will fly you into the hot zone over and over again.

C17B74
02-08-2020, 12:11 PM
True, so maybe a jump to a large PAX carrier (or LCC, mostly domestic anyway) isnít that bad of an idea. Not like any new hire or 1-4 year starter is headed overseas anyway for the most part it seems. Granted, a slowdown in Cargo/PAX is always inevitable in some form of Pandemic, Economic, Carrier War-fare, AircraftMAX, Trade War, Recession/Depression, Merger or simply out maneuvered by another large box or body carrier.

*Heavy Cargo newbie/AMCI, Boom your in the hot zone wherever that might be on OE right out of the Gate most of the time. (Virus Outbreak)

This current event might take a few weeks, months or more to clean up like most things hopefully. Hiring and significant growth may/will boom once again (Purple, etc.) Looking back at your career when itís all said and done will be the only true testament of what you deem as a success for whatever priorities you establish now. Priorities change, Tail Flashes Change and Management, etc. change - Itís unfortunately impressive if someone is able to maintain momentum and the same ID badge happily throughout this profession. Wish all the Best!

WhenPigsFLy
02-08-2020, 12:18 PM
The virus is short term issue. Amazon is a long term problem. 1 Trillion market cap. Id leave you will be safe with retirements. Fedex pilot group has never had bad times. When it comes it will be ugly. 4500 independent contractors in good times how will it be in bad times, plus alpa does not care about 4500 pilots. Its about the 40k of pax pilots were they get their money.

Slatsextend
02-08-2020, 03:39 PM
Slats....
Before the 45 minute edit deadline is over, please go back in and edit your post. Put this
after the guy's text you're trying to quote to match the one at the start of his text.

Then at least the readers will understand where your comments start.[/QUOTE]

Copy Copy, got riled up and forgot to leave the QUOTE in it ............. point well taken man !!! Thank you !!!

Slatsextend
02-08-2020, 03:48 PM
The virus is short term issue. Amazon is a long term problem. 1 Trillion market cap. Id leave you will be safe with retirements. Fedex pilot group has never had bad times. When it comes it will be ugly. 4500 independent contractors in good times how will it be in bad times, plus alpa does not care about 4500 pilots. Its about the 40k of pax pilots were they get their money.

No way dude ........... All these virus issues will be a player for years to come, the passenger crews that have to fly with all these potential infected passengers are going to pay a dear price .......... The virus issue and other weird junk out there will be a constant threat to the work environment for years to come, don't take this lightly. The passenger carriers are in extreme jeopardy events on stuff like this, they all know the risks but there is revenue that has to be made. Cargo carriers also in jeopardy no doubt. Would be real interesting to find out from the gate keepers what active and retired flight crews are dying from, the actuary information would be scary stuff for sure.

StarClipper
02-08-2020, 05:00 PM
No way dude ........... All these virus issues will be a player for years to come, the passenger crews that have to fly with all these potential infected passengers are going to pay a dear price .......... The virus issue and other weird junk out there will be a constant threat to the work environment for years to come, don't take this lightly. The passenger carriers are in extreme jeopardy events on stuff like this, they all know the risks but there is revenue that has to be made. Cargo carriers also in jeopardy no doubt. Would be real interesting to find out from the gate keepers what active and retired flight crews are dying from, the actuary information would be scary stuff for sure.

You got that right. We could contract anything out there not knowing itís long term effect on our health and the health of our love ones.
I earn my retire and more everyday I go to work. Please leave it alone, if I donít leave to enjoy it, my survivors will. Letís enhance it not eradicate it.

Stan446
02-10-2020, 03:59 PM
You got that right. We could contract anything out there not knowing itís long term effect on our health and the health of our love ones.
I earn my retire and more everyday I go to work. Please leave it alone, if I donít leave to enjoy it, my survivors will. Letís enhance it not eradicate it.

troll troll

Akutan Bandit
02-24-2020, 09:50 AM
Pilots that lateral between A-List carriers amaze me.

With all the uncertainty in aviation, the crystal ball required to make a substantially better move in moments of "crisis" is a big and clairvoyant one. What makes you think you can second guess the future to that degree? Oh yeah, the fact that you have the ability to extract job offers from multiple carriers.

In the 90's, when i was flying a 207 out of St Mary's Ak, I was routinely jump seating on United and FedEx. I regularly rode on an I.D. that could have been fabricated on a printer at Kinko's....but it wasn't. FedEx guys respected my I.D. and my story, while I was treated like **** at United 50% at the time. Those experiences taught me the value of solidarity and professional respect, and I vowed never to work for United. It also cemented my vow to never apply to any passenger carrying major, because that experience was to a lesser degree repeated at others.

If you're through the pool, indoc, training and IOE at FedEx and you want to jump ship because you think that highly of your brain's ability to future-cast, then you are delusional. You now work as a pilot at a company that has not only survived multiple economic downturns, but has done so with class and style and want to trade that for the stumbling retarded black-sheep of US aviation that only exists because it is too big to fail. If so, then good luck. You'll need it, genius.

HvypurplePylot
02-24-2020, 11:16 PM
Pilots that lateral between A-List carriers amaze me.

With all the uncertainty in aviation, the crystal ball required to make a substantially better move in moments of "crisis" is a big and clairvoyant one. What makes you think you can second guess the future to that degree? Oh yeah, the fact that you have the ability to extract job offers from multiple carriers.

In the 90's, when i was flying a 207 out of St Mary's Ak, I was routinely jump seating on United and FedEx. I regularly rode on an I.D. that could have been fabricated on a printer at Kinko's....but it wasn't. FedEx guys respected my I.D. and my story, while I was treated like **** at United 50% at the time. Those experiences taught me the value of solidarity and professional respect, and I vowed never to work for United. It also cemented my vow to never apply to any passenger carrying major, because that experience was to a lesser degree repeated at others.

If you're through the pool, indoc, training and IOE at FedEx and you want to jump ship because you think that highly of your brain's ability to future-cast, then you are delusional. You now work as a pilot at a company that has not only survived multiple economic downturns, but has done so with class and style and want to trade that for the stumbling retarded black-sheep of US aviation that only exists because it is too big to fail. If so, then good luck. You'll need it, genius.
well with coworkers like that why would anyone want to leave.

BluePAX
02-25-2020, 04:07 AM
Pilots that lateral between A-List carriers amaze me.

With all the uncertainty in aviation, the crystal ball required to make a substantially better move in moments of "crisis" is a big and clairvoyant one. What makes you think you can second guess the future to that degree? Oh yeah, the fact that you have the ability to extract job offers from multiple carriers.

In the 90's, when i was flying a 207 out of St Mary's Ak, I was routinely jump seating on United and FedEx. I regularly rode on an I.D. that could have been fabricated on a printer at Kinko's....but it wasn't. FedEx guys respected my I.D. and my story, while I was treated like **** at United 50% at the time. Those experiences taught me the value of solidarity and professional respect, and I vowed never to work for United. It also cemented my vow to never apply to any passenger carrying major, because that experience was to a lesser degree repeated at others.

If you're through the pool, indoc, training and IOE at FedEx and you want to jump ship because you think that highly of your brain's ability to future-cast, then you are delusional. You now work as a pilot at a company that has not only survived multiple economic downturns, but has done so with class and style and want to trade that for the stumbling retarded black-sheep of US aviation that only exists because it is too big to fail. If so, then good luck. You'll need it, genius.

Complains about not being treated professionally 20 years ago. Turns around and acts unprofessional to the junior guy asking questions. The cognitive dissonance is real.

MEMFO4Ever
02-25-2020, 04:41 AM
Stay, go, whatever. We are grossly overmanned and it is all a crapshoot no matter how you slice it.

iarapilot
02-25-2020, 07:31 AM
I have been here 22+ years. I feel like I hit the jackpot. With some seniority you have many options. Give it some time. FedEx is a stable company. There are always ups and downs.

FXLAX
02-25-2020, 09:07 AM
Pilots that lateral between A-List carriers amaze me.



With all the uncertainty in aviation, the crystal ball required to make a substantially better move in moments of "crisis" is a big and clairvoyant one. What makes you think you can second guess the future to that degree? Oh yeah, the fact that you have the ability to extract job offers from multiple carriers.



In the 90's, when i was flying a 207 out of St Mary's Ak, I was routinely jump seating on United and FedEx. I regularly rode on an I.D. that could have been fabricated on a printer at Kinko's....but it wasn't. FedEx guys respected my I.D. and my story, while I was treated like **** at United 50% at the time. Those experiences taught me the value of solidarity and professional respect, and I vowed never to work for United. It also cemented my vow to never apply to any passenger carrying major, because that experience was to a lesser degree repeated at others.



If you're through the pool, indoc, training and IOE at FedEx and you want to jump ship because you think that highly of your brain's ability to future-cast, then you are delusional. You now work as a pilot at a company that has not only survived multiple economic downturns, but has done so with class and style and want to trade that for the stumbling retarded black-sheep of US aviation that only exists because it is too big to fail. If so, then good luck. You'll need it, genius.


Personally, I wouldnít make career/life changing decisions on anecdotal experiences when riding a Jumpseat. But if you are clairvoyant enough to ascertain the culture of an entire pilot group thatís multi-thousands big from these limited experiences, then you are really are the genius here (which might explain your condescending post). No luck or questions needed on your part.

coryk
02-25-2020, 05:03 PM
Pilots that lateral between A-List carriers amaze me.

With all the uncertainty in aviation, the crystal ball required to make a substantially better move in moments of "crisis" is a big and clairvoyant one. What makes you think you can second guess the future to that degree? Oh yeah, the fact that you have the ability to extract job offers from multiple carriers.

In the 90's, when i was flying a 207 out of St Mary's Ak, I was routinely jump seating on United and FedEx. I regularly rode on an I.D. that could have been fabricated on a printer at Kinko's....but it wasn't. FedEx guys respected my I.D. and my story, while I was treated like **** at United 50% at the time. Those experiences taught me the value of solidarity and professional respect, and I vowed never to work for United. It also cemented my vow to never apply to any passenger carrying major, because that experience was to a lesser degree repeated at others.

If you're through the pool, indoc, training and IOE at FedEx and you want to jump ship because you think that highly of your brain's ability to future-cast, then you are delusional. You now work as a pilot at a company that has not only survived multiple economic downturns, but has done so with class and style and want to trade that for the stumbling retarded black-sheep of US aviation that only exists because it is too big to fail. If so, then good luck. You'll need it, genius.

This is perhaps one of the worst posts I've seen on this forum, in a very long time. I sir, nominate you for TOTD.

450knotOffice
02-26-2020, 12:12 PM
Pilots that lateral between A-List carriers amaze me.

With all the uncertainty in aviation, the crystal ball required to make a substantially better move in moments of "crisis" is a big and clairvoyant one. What makes you think you can second guess the future to that degree? Oh yeah, the fact that you have the ability to extract job offers from multiple carriers.

In the 90's, when i was flying a 207 out of St Mary's Ak, I was routinely jump seating on United and FedEx. I regularly rode on an I.D. that could have been fabricated on a printer at Kinko's....but it wasn't. FedEx guys respected my I.D. and my story, while I was treated like **** at United 50% at the time. Those experiences taught me the value of solidarity and professional respect, and I vowed never to work for United. It also cemented my vow to never apply to any passenger carrying major, because that experience was to a lesser degree repeated at others.

If you're through the pool, indoc, training and IOE at FedEx and you want to jump ship because you think that highly of your brain's ability to future-cast, then you are delusional. You now work as a pilot at a company that has not only survived multiple economic downturns, but has done so with class and style and want to trade that for the stumbling retarded black-sheep of US aviation that only exists because it is too big to fail. If so, then good luck. You'll need it, genius.

Jeebus Kreist, man. Anger issues much?!

HvypurplePylot
02-26-2020, 04:19 PM
With chodes like the one on jf advertising PDO bumps... Who wouldn't want to fly here

PA31
02-26-2020, 11:09 PM
With chodes like the one on jf advertising PDO bumps... Who wouldn't want to fly here

I saw that - ridiculous.
FedEx isnít for everyone- itís been great for me but I understand if a guy wants to fly for their hometown airline. My bet is career earnings at any of the big legacies, UPS, or FDX is roughly the same - just comes down to where you want to be based and the flying you want to do.

Adlerdriver
02-27-2020, 01:26 AM
My bet is career earnings at any of the big legacies, UPS, or FDX is roughly the same.
How can this be your guess if most of the pilots hired at FedEx in the next decade will be in the left seat at highest pay scale within 10 years if they want. Young guys can see 20-25 years at that pay scale. Do you think thatís happening at any big legacy?
Not trying to say there arenít lots of good reasons to go somewhere else or career earnings are the driving factor. But I think the career earnings variable favors the airlines with short WB upgrade times and a huge percentage of WB aircraft vs their total.

PA31
02-27-2020, 04:34 AM
How can this be your guess if most of the pilots hired at FedEx in the next decade will be in the left seat at highest pay scale within 10 years if they want. Young guys can see 20-25 years at that pay scale. Do you think thatís happening at any big legacy?
Not trying to say there arenít lots of good reasons to go somewhere else or career earnings are the driving factor. But I think the career earnings variable favors the airlines with short WB upgrade times and a huge percentage of WB aircraft vs their total.

Sure, maybe Iím wrong. Iím happy at purple but if I look at my friends hired 5 years ago at Delta, they are either NB captains or WB FOís. They have a higher pay rate than me and their 401k deposit with cash over cap is likely worth the same as my pension +B fund.

Jumbo Pilot
02-27-2020, 11:31 AM
Sure, maybe Iím wrong. Iím happy at purple but if I look at my friends hired 5 years ago at Delta, they are either NB captains or WB FOís. They have a higher pay rate than me and their 401k deposit with cash over cap is likely worth the same as my pension +B fund.

if you have been here 5 years like your friends at Delta, you ALSO could be a NB captain or WB FO.

Soooooo...

sounds like you have chosen seniority over compensation.

itís nice to have those options.

willflyforfud
02-27-2020, 12:07 PM
Sure, maybe Iím wrong. Iím happy at purple but if I look at my friends hired 5 years ago at Delta, they are either NB captains or WB FOís. They have a higher pay rate than me and their 401k deposit with cash over cap is likely worth the same as my pension +B fund.

ask your pilot friends how they feel about their retirements if they only have B funds/401k and profit sharing after this week in the stock market. my pension only lost to inflation... it's not perfect, but it provides a serious amount of security.

FXLAX
02-27-2020, 03:14 PM
if you have been here 5 years like your friends at Delta, you ALSO could be a NB captain or WB FO.



Soooooo...



sounds like you have chosen seniority over compensation.



itís nice to have those options.


I agree that we probably do better overall because of our ratio of NB/WB aircraft. But I think that even if one upgrades here at the earliest possibility, that NB captain rate still lags the legacies. All pay rates lag way behind those at the legacies, with all three of them slated to get increases in this next round of negotiations before we even get to openers.

Considering the type of flying we do, our rates should always be higher than legacies. I think they will be in this next round since we will have to compete with the legacies for pilots.

Reese
02-27-2020, 04:27 PM
ask your pilot friends how they feel about their retirements if they only have B funds/401k and profit sharing after this week in the stock market. my pension only lost to inflation... it's not perfect, but it provides a serious amount of security.

Dude, terrible way to look at a stock market correction. Guess what, I feel GREAT about it. Just like in 2009, buying opportunity and the market is up CRAZY in the 10 years since, BEATING inflation.

id take 16% b fund cash over cap any day vice an A plan. And Iím at Fedex.

our A plan is down 17.2% over the last 10 years(inflation eating away at value)
the stock market after today is STILL up 167% over the same time period.

assuming an 80/20 portfolio, thatís ~134% gain, 13% annual gain, vs our A planís NEGATIVE 1.7% return.

as long as you didnít freak out and sell low, your account regained its value in less than 3 years (and more if you kept investing)

BLOB
02-27-2020, 05:35 PM
Dude, terrible way to look at a stock market correction. Guess what, I feel GREAT about it. Just like in 2009, buying opportunity and the market is up CRAZY in the 10 years since, BEATING inflation.

id take 16% b fund cash over cap any day vice an A plan. And Iím at Fedex.

our A plan is down 17.2% over the last 10 years(inflation eating away at value)
the stock market after today is STILL up 167% over the same time period.

assuming an 80/20 portfolio, thatís ~134% gain, 13% annual gain, vs our A planís NEGATIVE 1.7% return.

as long as you didnít freak out and sell low, your account regained its value in less than 3 years (and more if you kept investing)
Yes the A plan is diminishing over time, but a 7% increase in B fund wonít equal the value of our current A fund for quite some time.

C2078
02-27-2020, 05:59 PM
Give me a GUARANTEED $100k+\year in X years AND a separate nest egg to go along with it. Yes, there are going to be the odd balls that average higher returns than the average guy, but that is most certainly not the norm, in fact the minority. At UPS, Iíll happily take my $100k+/year annuity PLUS the 12% the company gives me. Thank you very much!

willflyforfud
02-27-2020, 06:14 PM
Dude, terrible way to look at a stock market correction. Guess what, I feel GREAT about it. Just like in 2009, buying opportunity and the market is up CRAZY in the 10 years since, BEATING inflation.

id take 16% b fund cash over cap any day vice an A plan. And Iím at Fedex.

our A plan is down 17.2% over the last 10 years(inflation eating away at value)
the stock market after today is STILL up 167% over the same time period.

assuming an 80/20 portfolio, thatís ~134% gain, 13% annual gain, vs our A planís NEGATIVE 1.7% return.

as long as you didnít freak out and sell low, your account regained its value in less than 3 years (and more if you kept investing)


i guess you better accumulate 3-4 million dollars in your 401k by retirement with no pension to match our pension payment. i wish you luck if you can maintain an 80/20 ratio after 65 to keep your income up with no pension, this would be ill advised and exceptionally risky. in retirement you don't have the option to not sell if it is your income source. i wish you luck.

Stan446
02-27-2020, 06:51 PM
Dude, terrible way to look at a stock market correction. Guess what, I feel GREAT about it. Just like in 2009, buying opportunity and the market is up CRAZY in the 10 years since, BEATING inflation.

id take 16% b fund cash over cap any day vice an A plan. And I’m at Fedex.

our A plan is down 17.2% over the last 10 years(inflation eating away at value)
the stock market after today is STILL up 167% over the same time period.

assuming an 80/20 portfolio, that’s ~134% gain, 13% annual gain, vs our A plan’s NEGATIVE 1.7% return.

as long as you didn’t freak out and sell low, your account regained its value in less than 3 years (and more if you kept investing)
167%? The market has been great the past few years with maybe 20% for a year but not 167% over 10 years. The A fund needs fixing but I'd rather have both. If you retired this year, your 401K just took a big hit just this month. And if the market takes a hit every few years on media panic and market speculation, you are going to have a hard time in retirement. A constant A fund payout is a huge advantage as a retiree with no way to make any extra money unless you get another job. And UPS just got a contract extension with an increase to their A fund. FedEx can do the same. There is no excuse for not increasing the A fund.

PA31
02-28-2020, 12:13 AM
if you have been here 5 years like your friends at Delta, you ALSO could be a NB captain or WB FO.

Soooooo...

sounds like you have chosen seniority over compensation.

itís nice to have those options.

Of course I could be junior CA. Iím senior on my seat as FO, my point is the other legacies have a higher rate for any given seat.
Given different priorities on seniority and variances on compensation, I think a 25-30 year career at FDX or the other legacies is going to have similar earnings.

DirtyPurple
02-28-2020, 05:09 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/27/coronavirus-raises-worries-about-a-broad-slowdown-in-air-travel.html

Just be ready to jump ship back to FedEx if you think the tea leaves arenít in your favor.

OKLATEX
02-28-2020, 06:02 AM
Of course I could be junior CA. Iím senior on my seat as FO, my point is the other legacies have a higher rate for any given seat.
Given different priorities on seniority and variances on compensation, I think a 25-30 year career at FDX or the other legacies is going to have similar earnings.

I would agree with this, it is a wash in the end really. Pros/Cons absolutely to both paths.

Iím someone who would be very comfortable flying for one of the legacies. That being said, Iím very, very happy to be here. FedEx has been good to me and I enjoy the place. Been here 15 years. Looking at my friends at DAL/UAL with the same years of service and honestly, the careers are similar. Those at the pax airlines are Senior WB FOs or Junior Captains on the coast. Seniority or more money. Even my friends at SWA, its senior FO vs junior Captain on the Coasts with the same years of service. Of course I am part of the Ďlost decade pilot generationí.

FXLAX
02-28-2020, 07:51 AM
And UPS just got a contract extension with an increase to their A fund. FedEx can do the same. There is no excuse for not increasing the A fund.


Out of curiosity, what was UPSí A plan before and after this increase?

SaltyDog
02-28-2020, 09:26 AM
Out of curiosity, what was UPSí A plan before and after this increase?
In a nutshell:
No retirement DBP prior to 1998.
UPS 1% FAE max at 30 years first negotiated in 1998 contract, retroactive to all pilots on property.
However, each UPS/IPA contract since 2006 has another option, the contract by contract (like term insurance) "flat dollar benefit" DBP formula.
When your age group is covered in each successive contract, you will earn the higher retirement Defined Benefit Plan (DBP "A Plan") benefit of the two. 1% FAE or Flat dollar.
To expensive to comply with ERISA requirements to increase our FAE 1% formula, so IPA negotiated and uses the Flat Dollar Benefit formula contract by contract.
Timeline:
1998- 1% FAE
2006 -1% FAE all pilots, or, pilots turning 60 in range of years of current contract by birth year. Captains $3000 per year service. Max 30. (Max $90k per year)
FO's $2400 per year. (Max $72K per year)
Example 60 year old Captain earns a max benefit of 30 years x$3000/year =$90,000 annually to receive as desired by contract options (Survivor benefit, No survivor, level term payout, say 10 years, etc)

2016- 1% FAE all pilots, or pilots turning 60 in range of years (captures increasing age of pilots to gain flat dollar benefit option) Captains $4000, then 2020, Captains $4100, Then 2021, Captains $4200.
FO's $3200, then 2020, FO's $3280, then 2021, FO's $3360.

2020 TA: 1% FAE all pilots, increases flat dollar eligibility for pilots who will turn 60 during the proposed TA,
Captains Jan 2022 ; $4300 , then 2023, Captains $4400
FO's Jan 2022: $3440, then 2023, FO's $3520.

IPA pilots continuing to earn DBP increase year by year through 2021 current contract.
Max Captain flat dollar= 30x4200=$126,000
Max FO flat dollar =30x3360= $100,800

If TA is ratified, DBP increases continue through 2023.
Max Captain DBP benefit using flat dollar is 30x$4400= $132,000.
Max FO using flat dollar is 30x 3520=$105,600

FXLAX
02-28-2020, 10:52 AM
In a nutshell:

No retirement DBP prior to 1998.

UPS 1% FAE max at 30 years first negotiated in 1998 contract, retroactive to all pilots on property.

However, each UPS/IPA contract since 2006 has another option, the contract by contract (like term insurance) "flat dollar benefit" DBP formula.

When your age group is covered in each successive contract, you will earn the higher retirement Defined Benefit Plan (DBP "A Plan") benefit of the two. 1% FAE or Flat dollar.

To expensive to comply with ERISA requirements to increase our FAE 1% formula, so IPA negotiated and uses the Flat Dollar Benefit formula contract by contract.

Timeline:

1998- 1% FAE

2006 -1% FAE all pilots, or, pilots turning 60 in range of years of current contract by birth year. Captains $3000 per year service. Max 30. (Max $90k per year)

FO's $2400 per year. (Max $72K per year)

Example 60 year old Captain earns a max benefit of 30 years x$3000/year =$90,000 annually to receive as desired by contract options (Survivor benefit, No survivor, level term payout, say 10 years, etc)



2016- 1% FAE all pilots, or pilots turning 60 in range of years (captures increasing age of pilots to gain flat dollar benefit option) Captains $4000, then 2020, Captains $4100, Then 2021, Captains $4200.

FO's $3200, then 2020, FO's $3280, then 2021, FO's $3360.



2020 TA: 1% FAE all pilots, increases flat dollar eligibility for pilots who will turn 60 during the proposed TA,

Captains Jan 2022 ; $4300 , then 2023, Captains $4400

FO's Jan 2022: $3440, then 2023, FO's $3520.



IPA pilots continuing to earn DBP increase year by year through 2021 current contract.

Max Captain flat dollar= 30x4200=$126,000

Max FO flat dollar =30x3360= $100,800



If TA is ratified, DBP increases continue through 2023.

Max Captain DBP benefit using flat dollar is 30x$4400= $132,000.

Max FO using flat dollar is 30x 3520=$105,600


Thank you for that explanation. I assume that you are also keeping the 12% company contribution in this TA?

C2078
02-28-2020, 03:19 PM
Thank you for that explanation. I assume that you are also keeping the 12% company contribution in this TA?

Of course!!

MEMA300
02-28-2020, 07:12 PM
https://news.yahoo.com/photos-deserted-nearly-empty-airports-185813177.html

not a good time to jump ship

iHateAMR
02-29-2020, 05:31 PM
... The majority of my buddies fly for the UAL/Delta/AA/SWA and truly think Iím nuts staying on board FedExís sinking ship...

You should tell your buddies at United you think theyíre nuts for sticking around on their sinking ship! I can hear the excuses already. 😂

United Asks for Voluntary Leave Article (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/29/coronavirus-prompts-united-airlines-to-offer-pilots-a-month-for-flight-cuts.html?fbclid=IwAR2E83D53vBs1NwiaDBUSNqNxDUgCFz tEhZW8UT_7FFNFO2K1m8fkuTUITY)

That all being said, their next new hire classes and for the foreseeable future are cancelled, and this is a necessary step before the company is allowed to furlough per their contract. Iím hoping this all blows over in a few months, and itís a moot point we all look back and laugh upon, but it may mean some of our buddies may be facing a difficult time soon. Iím just a pilot though, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

Stan446
03-01-2020, 02:27 AM
To the OP, jump Its all a guess, so just keep jumping. And when you are not happy at your next job, jump. Or maybe educate yourself on how volatile the airline system is and then find a job in a more stable work environment..

Take a snap shot of this year and look at the years to come. Its going to be the same. Social media panic now controls the world and the market. The market was great under Trump but that will change. The continual growth of the market is now controlled by complete morons who think every blip is a worldwide epidemic. So, When my 200K loss come back, I'm going in to bonds and then I'm done. Sad that of the legacy airlines with no pension, guys have lost a lot this past two weeks that will take years to get back. 12% B fund, great, until now. No pension? Well that pension still pays the same dollars today as it did 4 weeks ago.

golfandfly
03-09-2020, 09:40 AM
Soliciting advice from an anonymous Internet forum might be nuts but here it goes.

Iím relatively new here and consider myself extremely fortunate to be part of the team. FedEx was always my #1 choice but some of that shine is starting to wear off after seeing behind the curtain. That being said, Iím considering brushing off the resume with all of this doom and gloom.

Iím less than 1yr on property and donít know what I donít know. The majority of my buddies fly for the UAL/Delta/AA/SWA and truly think Iím nuts staying on board FedExís sinking ship. I donít have many buddies here to steer me straight with an honest long term perspective of flying for FedEx. I havenít been a fan of the night hub turns but Iím told day flying is doable with a bit of seniority. Does it really get better? So what is the true story? Are we at the bottom of a normal business cycle or do we have our collective heads in the sand? I hope Iím wrong but the headwinds of change donít look favorable.

Iím fortunate to likely have a long career ahead of me and live within driving distance to big domiciles for the other major carriers. Flying purple tails have always been my dream so I canít believe Iím even considering walking away from the best flying job in the world. Have I lost my mind?

cheers -

Layoffs are coming to passenger carriers soon.. Ask your friends what they think now...

rvfanatic
03-09-2020, 05:12 PM
Layoffs are coming to passenger carriers soon.. Ask your friends what they think now...

Youíd think Fedex pilots would be a little more humble given that Fedex was struggling despite one of the best years in the stock market in 2019. Furthermore, Fedex has depressing returns and continues to miss earnings compared to UPS, your closest competitor. At one point last year UPS was up 10% and FDX down 30%!

It seems you guys are almost proud that you arenít the only ones struggling.

UnusualAttitude
03-09-2020, 05:20 PM
Youíd think Fedex pilots would be a little more humble given that Fedex was struggling despite one of the best years in the stock market in 2019. Furthermore, Fedex has depressing returns and continues to miss earnings compared to UPS, your closest competitor. At one point last year UPS was up 10% and FDX down 30%!

It seems you guys are almost proud that you arenít the only ones struggling.

I think youíre reading too much into his comment. Many of us came to FedEx because it offered relative stability historically as compared to the boom and bust cycle of the passenger carriers.

Some reasoned with the original poster that these things happen. I donít think anyone saw this (COVID-19) coming and certainly even a week ago the negative impact didnít seem as drastic as it does today.

FedEx isnít out of the woods but we arenít drawing down our fleet in large numbers yet. No one is happy to see any other company struggling. It just seemed to me like an observation to the OP. Itís been a long few weeks and days for everyone, Iím sure for you guys at United especially. It will turn around. Head up pal.

-UA

kronan
03-09-2020, 05:27 PM
There's a dramatic difference between struggling in the stock market, and actually struggling.

Earning's misses definitely not great for the stock market, but big scheme of things, profit margin still about 5%. It's just that the stock market wants it to be higher.
Still means FedEx has been profitable every year I've been here. FedEx even instituted a dividend payment in the fall of 2001. So, yes, as everyone else was laying people off. FedEx was profitable enough to start paying a dividend for the first time ever.

UPS makes more money than FedEx due to the higher margins and greater shipping totals. Only One UPS truck drives through every neighborhood every day while an Express Truck often makes two passes and there's a Ground truck and maybe a Home delivery truck...oh, an USPS finishes off some FedEx deliveries too.

Been a while since I ran the numbers. But at one time FedEx had roughly the same number of Capt's on the Seniority list as UPS had total pilots.

golfandfly
03-09-2020, 06:03 PM
Youíd think Fedex pilots would be a little more humble given that Fedex was struggling despite one of the best years in the stock market in 2019. Furthermore, Fedex has depressing returns and continues to miss earnings compared to UPS, your closest competitor. At one point last year UPS was up 10% and FDX down 30%!

It seems you guys are almost proud that you arenít the only ones struggling.

I came from a major airline 15+ years ago. I was furloughed after 9-11. The original post came off whiny to me. Wanted someone to convince him to stay. Honestly, I couldnít care less what he/she does. If the grass is greener, he should find the best place for him. Fedex isnít for everyone, but I have to say itís been the best place Iíve ever worked.

Stan446
03-09-2020, 06:53 PM
I'd say jump. Go to a pax carrier that has lost 60% of their Asia flying. This will go on every time a virus comes out of China. And if you think the FedEx A fund sucks, try living off a B fund that just took a huge hit and will continue to be subject to the stock market. Social media, stupid people panicking will be what the future will bring. And FedEx has plenty of pilots flying overtime who don't care about the virus.

C2078
03-09-2020, 06:58 PM
There is absolutely zero doubt that Fedex and UPS provide a much more stable environment than any airline. Not completely immunity, no job can provide that. People stay home, donít travel, still purchase stuff online. E-Commerce has changed the landscape. Business, albeit at a lower rate, still ship/move stuff. The primo cargo carriers will always fare at least a tad better than any airline. Not immune, but more stable.

busdriver12
03-09-2020, 08:25 PM
FedEx has performed poorly in earnings for so long, I was thinking pilots should head towards the pax carriers. But now, I think we are all screwed, both cargo and pax.

The Duke
03-09-2020, 09:03 PM
If youíre on the list at either FedEx or UPS at this moment in history, you hit the proverbial jackpot. Definitely donít leave. Itís not the most glamorous job, but itís stable relative to the pax carriers. Just read Gary Kellyís letter to Southwest employees earlier this evening: very sobering. This is going to be a long, hard road back to normalcy for the pax carriers. Sounds like there will likely be some high profile bankruptcies. This corona virus pandemonium is a classic example: While the pax carriers are cancelling flights to Asia, FedEx and UPS are flying over there like crazy and hauling some pretty healthy payloads from what I hear. If things deteriorate domestically and large scale disruptions to commercial air traffic occur, the freight dawgs will be busy flying. Iím sure UPS and FedEx will be affected, but not nearly as dramatically. Both are still hiring/running classes, albeit in much smaller numbers.

whalesurfer
03-09-2020, 09:25 PM
...Just read Gary Kellyís letter to Southwest employees earlier this evening: very sobering...

Care to share the letter? ..or could you summarize it?

thanks

The Duke
03-09-2020, 09:46 PM
Care to share the letter? ..or could you summarize it?

thanks


https://media.swalife.com/docs/news/public/media/video/swatv/2020/200309GaryCoronaCaptioned.mp4

901Dude
03-09-2020, 10:13 PM
Wow. Worse than 9-11. Strong words by GK.

Stan446
03-10-2020, 02:20 AM
FedEx has performed poorly in earnings for so long, I was thinking pilots should head towards the pax carriers. But now, I think we are all screwed, both cargo and pax.

The poor earnings were before the virus. The company was writing off the new airplane aquisistions.

rvfanatic
03-10-2020, 02:21 AM
I think youíre reading too much into his comment. Many of us came to FedEx because it offered relative stability historically as compared to the boom and bust cycle of the passenger carriers.

Some reasoned with the original poster that these things happen. I donít think anyone saw this (COVID-19) coming and certainly even a week ago the negative impact didnít seem as drastic as it does today.

FedEx isnít out of the woods but we arenít drawing down our fleet in large numbers yet. No one is happy to see any other company struggling. It just seemed to me like an observation to the OP. Itís been a long few weeks and days for everyone, Iím sure for you guys at United especially. It will turn around. Head up pal.

-UA

Your response was classy and in line with the FedEx pilots I know. I wish you all the best of luck, thank you.

whalesurfer
03-10-2020, 07:02 PM
https://media.swalife.com/docs/news/public/media/video/swatv/2020/200309GaryCoronaCaptioned.mp4

Thanks.

Wow, youíre right, depressing is an understatement.. 😐
On the other hand - over $1BILLION! in savings if the low fuel prices stock around!?!

FedEx Pilot
03-11-2020, 01:19 AM
Thanks.

Wow, youíre right, depressing is an understatement.. 😐
On the other hand - over $1BILLION! in savings if the low fuel prices stock around!?!

DAL same scenario, estimated $2 Billion in fuel savings

Captpurple
03-18-2020, 05:16 AM
This sucks for everybody involved. For my passenger buddies, who knows what the next couple quarters will lead to. Hopefully not the F word. I was looking forward Delta getting a big contract before our next TA so we could "+ a nickel" on the pay rates. Now it looks like the UPS interim might be the new bar. Good luck cattle haulers. Hopefully the pain won't be too long this time around.

Thrust Hold
03-18-2020, 06:07 AM
Soliciting advice from an anonymous Internet forum might be nuts but here it goes.

Iím relatively new here and consider myself extremely fortunate to be part of the team. FedEx was always my #1 choice but some of that shine is starting to wear off after seeing behind the curtain. That being said, Iím considering brushing off the resume with all of this doom and gloom.

Iím less than 1yr on property and donít know what I donít know. The majority of my buddies fly for the UAL/Delta/AA/SWA and truly think Iím nuts staying on board FedExís sinking ship. I donít have many buddies here to steer me straight with an honest long term perspective of flying for FedEx. I havenít been a fan of the night hub turns but Iím told day flying is doable with a bit of seniority. Does it really get better? So what is the true story? Are we at the bottom of a normal business cycle or do we have our collective heads in the sand? I hope Iím wrong but the headwinds of change donít look favorable.

Iím fortunate to likely have a long career ahead of me and live within driving distance to big domiciles for the other major carriers. Flying purple tails have always been my dream so I canít believe Iím even considering walking away from the best flying job in the world. Have I lost my mind?

cheers -

So, What did you end up deciding?

fly2ski
03-18-2020, 03:17 PM
So, What did you end up deciding?



Crickets, I was wondering the same thing:cool:

MEMA300
03-18-2020, 04:03 PM
Ha ha. Sometimes decisions are made for you...

Jma313
03-19-2020, 07:12 AM
Man this thread didnít age well.

Hedley Lamarr
03-19-2020, 07:41 AM
JUN2O training bid shows 14 757 FO training slots.
I take it these are for new hires and a glimmer of hope for those swimming in the pool.

Skytrucker01
03-19-2020, 08:00 AM
Yes please.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

LunkerHunter
03-19-2020, 08:12 AM
Man this thread didnít age well.

Almost as bad as the recent Delta thread where the pregnant wife was soliciting suggestions for how to convince her sneezing/coughing/mentally unstable husband to call in sick

Cubatticus
03-19-2020, 08:34 AM
I couldnít be more happy to be flying purple tails. As a relatively new guy here Iíd be lying if I didnít have similar thoughts to the OP a few months back. Itís pretty damn clear now how fortunate we are to be at FedEx. This industry sure does turn on a dime. Letís all hope it gets better soon for everyoneís sake.

wrxpilot
03-22-2020, 07:05 PM
I couldnít be more happy to be flying purple tails. As a relatively new guy here Iíd be lying if I didnít have similar thoughts to the OP a few months back. Itís pretty damn clear now how fortunate we are to be at FedEx. This industry sure does turn on a dime. Letís all hope it gets better soon for everyoneís sake.

​​​​​​I think a lot of us newer types were having similar thoughts a few months ago... FDX had a couple less than stellar quarters, they stopped hiring, and the pax carriers were hiring like crazy with nothing but wonderful news and plans for the future.

Of course now any of us that were having those thoughts are extremely grateful to be here right now, with a hopeful but cautious glance towards the future 6-12 months from now. There's absolutely no other pilot job I'd rather be at now than FedEx, and I would imagine that's going to be the case for an extremely long time.

FXLAX
03-22-2020, 07:24 PM
The key is to to try not to get too high or too low when the aviation teeter totter swings one way or the other. Especially when you are at FedEx. Many picked this place PRECISELY for times like these. But again, donít get too high on that either. Nothing is human proof.

Sluggo_63
03-22-2020, 07:43 PM
The key is to to try not to get too high or too low when the aviation teeter totter swings one way or the other. Especially when you are at FedEx. Many picked this place PRECISELY for times like these. But again, donít get too high on that either. Nothing is human proof.
Amen. I'm a little concerned that this tremendous house of cards we're living in is a couple positive COVID cases too many from just tumbling down. Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that.

C17B74
03-22-2020, 08:55 PM
Nothing is human proof.

Agree with FXLAX, life is unpredictable, timing is everything, and when you believe you have control you sometimes spin out of control beyond anything you could have forecasted/foreseen. This industry is fickle at best and obviously has provided incredible opportunities for those who were fortunate and lucky enough to have exited unscathed, many, many others not so much. Our careers are economy, emotionally, competition/management and health based, etc. regardless on how you ďfeelĒ about it. Many of these companies were nothing 30+ years ago compared to what they are today. Some were better, some worse, some were at the bottom and now at the top, others at the top of their game and now either merged or cease to exist; like most businesses itís always a cyclic event. We make the best decisions we can and cannot control human or Mother Nature. Our industry will always go through disruptions of various sorts and it is not a safe haven, nothing really is - yet we will strive on to provide for our families and enjoy the ride during high times and survive the rough times. While cargo is not immune to ups and downs and absorption of sorts, it historically has been a better bet. Eyes are open, transitions will be made but in the end no one can ascertain if they have had that so called ďGreat CareerĒ until looking back from the end of the ride. Sometimes the roller coaster does come off the rails, but itís put back on and riders will show up once again.

As we navigate this unfamiliar territory we must not forget the lessons learned and be better prepared for future events as best we can. I am just thankful this ďpandemicĒ shows signs of being tamped down however you view it and not some never-seen-before highly contagious hybrid/mutant Ebola, Flesh-Eating Bacteria, Hemorrhagic Fever, etc. Although unimaginable for some, this could be far worse. Donít think weíve peaked yet by any means and hopefully Iím wrong. More discipline now will ensure quicker gains to normalcy. Be strong.

iarapilot
04-05-2020, 05:02 PM
I just saw this thread and the date it was created, and was curious what the poster is thinking now. It might be a lesson.

I would like to think that I was a genius wanting to come here 25 years ago. I figured that there were only 2 big players in this business. And that is still the case. 911 showed that we were in a much better place than the pax. As of now, same for the WuFlu. But you never know what tomorrow brings.