Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Commutable for new hires?


Omen38
01-27-2020, 05:52 PM
Hey everyone.

Quick question: I'm starting to put my apps out for the majors and I'm applying for everyone that I'm qualified for. I've read some of the threads on here and I've refrained from applying to Sun Country simply because it doesn't seem commutable for me. My wife is currently in the Air Force, so I am unable to relocate at this time.

We live a couple hours south of ATL, so I can get to there, or JAX fairly easily. Is there any way Sun Country could work out for me, knowing that I would have to commute?

I appreciate your opinions on the matter.


Redbeard
01-27-2020, 06:29 PM
Really just depends on your situation and what other options you have. I know some people will jump on this and say donít even think about it, but we have a decent amount of commuters so obviously itís not impossible. Right now it seems like itís going to take just under a year to get off reserve for FOs if they keep the hiring up. Also with the possibility of getting a new contract before the end of the year the reserve rules will probably be changing.

With all that being said the reserve schedule isnít ideal for commuters...only 10 or 11 days off a month. Usually with 3 stretches of 2 days off and 1 stretch of 4 days off. So depends on how frequent flights are to get you home or not on how often youíll be home. Right now it seems like a lot of people are gambling on how the contract will turn out. We could get a great contract worked out and people will stick around or it could go poorly and people will move on. So if you want to try and beat the wave of applicants and gamble on a good contract now is the time. If you have other options and donít want to risk it then thats not a bad plan either.

wannabee
01-27-2020, 06:58 PM
Iím commuting right now. Iím on PM reserve and not being used much. Iíve flown 5 or 6 days so far in January but Iíll have been away from home 22-24 days by the end of the month. Itís definitely not ideal, but not impossible either. Iím one of those people ďgamblingĒ on a better contract. I think AMs get used more frequently, so you can at least collect per diem.

With that said, there are some LOAs coming down the pike to fix some of the reserve issues we have and make it more palatable for commuters. But those are just temporary. If the issues arenít ultimately fixed in the new contract, the LOAs donít do much good. If they continue to fill classes, Iíll be off reserve around 8 months after DOH. PM me if you want more info.


wannabee
01-27-2020, 07:00 PM
Also, the lines typically arenít very commutable on either end, so if your long term plans donít include a move to the twin cities, the commute could get real old real fast. That could all change with the Amazon flying. Thereís also a chance they open bases somewhere, but right now thereís no solid info on that.

Starchkr
01-27-2020, 08:10 PM
I agree with these posts except I would say, donít plan on getting per diem while on reserve. Itís entirely possible to fly an entire month of reserve and only get turns. We donít get per diem for day trips. It happened to me in December and I flew a lot.

The work rules here arenít as good as most regionals. I personally like it better than regionals because of the flying we do but youíd be far better off flying for Spirit or Frontier. If this is the only offer you have then go for it. Just be prepared to not make it home much while on reserve.

It will get better once you hold a line but still not as good as the other airlines mentioned. If we get a better contract, I wouldnít count on it, it could be a decent deal. Itís a gamble but it could work out good if you get in early during this hiring wave.

good luck.

maverickchill
01-29-2020, 07:20 AM
If you're going to "gamble" make sure you are ready to lose.
Look at how long it took Spirit and frontier boys to get a new contract...7 years. Delta is currently 1 year into negotiations. Our contract is not even up until November. So you would be looking at a 2 year wait, minimum, more likely 8 years from now before we see a better contact. Who knows if sunny will still be around in that time.

nibake
01-29-2020, 05:36 PM
On what information are you basing the claim that a minimum of two years is required? If the contract is up in November that means the contract is up in November, at least the way I understand it. Spirit and Frontier are different companies and are not in the same situation we are in. Apollo is sinking a lot of money into SY and a good contract will likely make the company worth more instead of less at IPO.

labbats
01-31-2020, 04:16 PM
A good contract will help an IPO?

A bad contract with low paid employees makes for a good IPO. Unfortunately thatís how Wall Street works.

Sun Country just got awarded Amazon flying... ask Atlas pilots flying for Amazon how much they get paid compared to their peers.

nibake
02-01-2020, 05:59 AM
I don't think being in contract negotiations would help and IPO/stock prices; I think it would be detrimental. A "bad contract" with low pay could look good for a company's profits, yes. But we are coming to the end of this period so it's either going to be extended negotiations, a good contract, or maybe a strike. We certainly ought not vote for a bad contract.

Starchkr
02-01-2020, 07:11 PM
I don't think being in contract negotiations would help and IPO/stock prices; I think it would be detrimental. A "bad contract" with low pay could look good for a company's profits, yes. But we are coming to the end of this period so it's either going to be extended negotiations, a good contract, or maybe a strike. We certainly ought not vote for a bad contract.

There are a lot of us here that will be highly motivated to leave given negotiations appear to be going sour or taking a long time. IMO it would be a huge mistake to not get it done ASAP.

nibake
02-03-2020, 11:08 AM
I agree. Not only that, but I think we have a canary in the DO who will be a good indication of whether or not sticking around is the right move for those who are on the fence.

Starchkr
02-03-2020, 08:21 PM
I agree. Not only that, but I think we have a canary in the DO who will be a good indication of whether or not sticking around is the right move for those who are on the fence.

If he leaves thereís little to no hope IMO.

Shako68
02-06-2020, 07:54 PM
Just because itís amendable this year donít get your hopes up. How long have you been around and how many contracts have you seen??? This will be my 4th with 2 different airlines. I donít think any airline contract within the last 10 years have been LESS than 2 years of negotiations and the average is at least 4 years. There is so much that needs to be fixed this time I canít imagine itís going to be quick. It will go to mediation, and as soon as that happens it takes a long time...thatís just how the process works.

A fat new contract for SY wonít help an IPO...neither will labor strife. It will be an interesting 2-5 years here, it likely will be a very different place. Hopefully for the better, but quite possibly for the worse!

Flyonwall
02-07-2020, 03:29 AM
If he leaves thereís little to no hope IMO.


Wholeheartedly agree. I would say that if he leaves, there is a 100% chance that this place is completely screwed. Already a dangerous amount of pilots have their apps out. Bandwidth is extremely thin for what we are doing. scheduled service is going to shrink to try to accommodate amazon. Classes are barely hanging on and this last class I had heard from has almost half of them with a training failure with resignations to boot. Save yourself the black mark if I were you.

FlyCO
02-07-2020, 04:09 AM
Due to our training being AQP, only the LOE is a jeopardy event. None of them got a black mark. If they did leave, they probably were asked to resign and were not terminated.

Mandrake
02-07-2020, 06:04 AM
Due to our training being AQP, only the LOE is a jeopardy event. None of them got a black mark. If they did leave, they probably were asked to resign and were not terminated.

Not to derail the thread but do you think there will be changes in the way airlines handle ďforced resignationsĒ following the recent Atlas air crash? I believe that FO was asked to resign two or three times due to poor performance.

nibake
02-07-2020, 06:51 AM
I was under the impression that he didn't list the companies at all so Atlas had no way of sending a PRIA request to those companies.

maverickchill
02-15-2020, 07:51 PM
Just to show how awful our reserve is, 68 FOs are now bypassing upgrade. Which puts upgrade at 1 year 10 months. By the way... 30 airplanes today, 45 by the end of the year and 60 by the end of 2023. ...and people are still leaving! Makes you wonder why?? Come and find out haha

Starchkr
02-16-2020, 02:49 AM
The bottom third of the lines arenít great either. Thereís very little incentive to upgrade and no incentive to stick around. It really seems the best bet is to leave at the first opportunity.

If youíre a low time pilot, a pilot without Jet PIC youíd be better off going to a regional where you can hold a line as a captain more quickly and build the time you need. If the regional has a flow, even better.

The only way this place makes sense is if you live near MSP. Even then there are better options IMO.

I firmly believe we havenít seen even close to the attrition that will be coming. Without a significant change for the better Iím not sure growing this operation will be possible.

Flyonwall
02-16-2020, 05:58 AM
The bottom third of the lines arenít great either. Thereís very little incentive to upgrade and no incentive to stick around. It really seems the best bet is to leave at the first opportunity.

If youíre a low time pilot, a pilot without Jet PIC youíd be better off going to a regional where you can hold a line as a captain more quickly and build the time you need. If the regional has a flow, even better.

The only way this place makes sense is if you live near MSP. Even then there are better options IMO.

I firmly believe we havenít seen even close to the attrition that will be coming. Without a significant change for the better Iím not sure growing this operation will be possible.


Absolutely nailed it.

apex7
02-16-2020, 05:04 PM
In other news...

Captains are very upset that FOĒs are upgrading in under 2 years:rolleyes: Can someone explain to me how someone acting PIC of a 737 is any more difficult / unsafe than someone who is PIC of a CRJ200?

Bigger plane , more complex? Flying a CRJ200 without all the automation and lack of performance in and out of podank airports is a lot more challenging than flying the 73.. I donít think some captains here can fly a plane without VNAV or have heart attacks disconnecting the AP on a visual.

Most of the FOĒs upgrading too have had prior 121 PIC experience, or have flown a few years at 121 carriers before sunny.

kudos to all the people upgrading and actually wanting to move on in life

Redbeard
02-17-2020, 05:37 AM
In other news...

Captains are very upset that FOĒs are upgrading in under 2 years:rolleyes: Can someone explain to me how someone acting PIC of a 737 is any more difficult / unsafe than someone who is PIC of a CRJ200?

Bigger plane , more complex? Flying a CRJ200 without all the automation and lack of performance in and out of podank airports is a lot more challenging than flying the 73.. I donít think some captains here can fly a plane without VNAV or have heart attacks disconnecting the AP on a visual.

Most of the FOĒs upgrading too have had prior 121 PIC experience, or have flown a few years at 121 carriers before sunny.

kudos to all the people upgrading and actually wanting to move on in life


Preach it:D

It just comes down to the mentality of, ďI had to do it, so should you!Ē But I will say I have flown with mostly really great captains at Sunny and the bitter old crusty guys seem to be in the minority.

Positiveg
02-19-2020, 05:21 PM
Heard something about a commuter policy of some sort for the Prime Air flying? Any truth to that?

nibake
02-20-2020, 07:33 AM
There have been several recent LOA's addressing different issues. Nothing on commuters so far. More are on the way, but we haven't been getting info until they are sent out. One could hope that some of the LOA's in the pipeline are addressing reserve rules and commuter policies but we really won't know until we have it in hand.

Edit: The short answer is no.