Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




All Bizniz
01-28-2020, 04:35 AM
Given the pilot sentiments (maybe even shifting sentiments for some?) here at AS these days, I am curious to find out if there was ever a time when it was considered a really fun place to be at.
​​​​​​
If it was, share with us what made it so back in the day, and what was the turning point if you agree that things are not so great right now. Was it the Kasher award, or were there perceptible changes long before that?

Noting Mudhen200's mention about his proximity to "Geezerville" in another post, I'd especially love to hear from those old timers who've lived the history :)


Packrat
01-28-2020, 07:01 AM
Actually, it was. When I started, it paid 92% of what narrow body pilots at the Major airlines paid with one pay rate for all aircraft. So for the 727 guys, it was slightly less, the MD guys about on par and the 737-200 group got slightly more. To get that, however, the Union had to sign a no-strike clause that was never published in the contract (at National's direction).

The crew meals were first class meals which were some of the best in the industry.

There was only 750 pilots so you actually got to know each other. The F/As had the same pairings and lines so you flew an entire month with the same cabin crew. You could actually develop real crew bonding, especially in months when you had 4 day trips together.

It was all up and down the West Coast/Alaska so there was no circadian problems with time zone jumping. You may not know where you were when you woke up, but you sure knew what time it was.

The downhill slide began when Bruce Kennedy retired and Ray Vecci took over. Ray was brought in to put a meat ax to the cost structure and did so very adroitly. His replacements have pursued that policy religiously. That's pretty much why you are where you are today.

rickair7777
01-28-2020, 07:30 AM
I think all of the legacies were pretty good places to work back in the day... up until the time they weren't.


All Bizniz
01-28-2020, 08:10 AM
I think all of the legacies were pretty good places to work back in the day... up until the time they weren't.
Yes, no doubt that's true. hahaha... It's much appreciated that Packrat was kind enough to articulate some of the reasons specific to AS.

Texasbound
01-28-2020, 08:25 AM
Actually, it was. When I started, it paid 92% of what narrow body pilots at the Major airlines paid with one pay rate for all aircraft. So for the 727 guys, it was slightly less, the MD guys about on par and the 737-200 group got slightly more. To get that, however, the Union had to sign a no-strike clause that was never published in the contract (at National's direction).

The crew meals were first class meals which were some of the best in the industry.

There was only 750 pilots so you actually got to know each other. The F/As had the same pairings and lines so you flew an entire month with the same cabin crew. You could actually develop real crew bonding, especially in months when you had 4 day trips together.

It was all up and down the West Coast/Alaska so there was no circadian problems with time zone jumping. You may not know where you were when you woke up, but you sure knew what time it was.

The downhill slide began when Bruce Kennedy retired and Ray Vecci took over. Ray was brought in to put a meat ax to the cost structure and did so very adroitly. His replacements have pursued that policy religiously. That's pretty much why you are where you are today.

Also what passenger airline pilots still have their pension? Not everyone at Alaska has it, but some do.

lowflying
01-28-2020, 09:04 AM
Also what passenger airline pilots still have their pension? Not everyone at Alaska has it, but some do.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. It was also the only pension plan given up voluntarily by a pilot group.

Texasbound
01-28-2020, 09:17 AM
I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. It was also the only pension plan given up voluntarily by a pilot group.
Read the title of the thread, That is the point I was trying to make. For some (Top 10%), it was and is still a great place to work.

lowflying
01-28-2020, 10:24 AM
Read the title of the thread, That is the point I was trying to make. For some (Top 10%), it was and is still a great place to work.

I guess irony is dead to you. I wasn’t sure whether you were trying to imply that the future pilots were sold down the river thus contributing to the myriad reasons that Alaska is no longer a “truly great place to work.”

OTZeagle1
01-28-2020, 10:43 AM
I think ‘05 took some of the luster off for me. Almost 20 years in and it’s been a ride. Hard to complain, lots of ups and downs though. Home on the sound, views out of almost every room, bought at a good time, only bummer is the 28k a year in tax on it. Drive to work, last year about 15 days a month off. I worked too hard, I drop and try to pick up as much good stuff as I can, some frown on it, I think it’s smart. Boat, small plane, more then I ever expected. Have one neighbor I think is in the same place as me, on the other side is a guy that probably throws away more money then I make. If I gaze too long out his direction, I feel like a looser, wonder why any one would become a pilot. I stayed all in that A plan, never voted anyone out of it, watched a lot of guys do it to themselves, wish everyone was in it. Have a good friend at SWA, commutes to OAK, lives in a track home, still probably 700k, he wishes he would have went to ALK. Every time he comes over he says, “ah so this is how a real pilot lives.” Seattle has gotten expensive though, worry about the new guys, I don’t think I would stay if I were them. Like to think this next contract will change a lot for them, but it would be hard to wait for a maybe if someone else were to call. Little more then 20 years left, I still enjoy flying, most everyone I fly with is awesome, it rarely feels like work.

Big E 757
01-28-2020, 01:40 PM
I think ‘05 took some of the luster off for me. Almost 20 years in and it’s been a ride. Hard to complain, lots of ups and downs though. Home on the sound, views out of almost every room, bought at a good time, only bummer is the 28k a year in tax on it. Drive to work, last year about 15 days a month off. I worked too hard, I drop and try to pick up as much good stuff as I can, some frown on it, I think it’s smart. Boat, small plane, more then I ever expected. Have one neighbor I think is in the same place as me, on the other side is a guy that probably throws away more money then I make. If I gaze too long out his direction, I feel like a looser, wonder why any one would become a pilot. I stayed all in that A plan, never voted anyone out of it, watched a lot of guys do it to themselves, wish everyone was in it. Have a good friend at SWA, commutes to OAK, lives in a track home, still probably 700k, he wishes he would have went to ALK. Every time he comes over he says, “ah so this is how a real pilot lives.” Seattle has gotten expensive though, worry about the new guys, I don’t think I would stay if I were them. Like to think this next contract will change a lot for them, but it would be hard to wait for a maybe if someone else were to call. Little more then 20 years left, I still enjoy flying, most everyone I fly with is awesome, it rarely feels like work.

So this guy is part of ALK’s 1%, I’m thinking? So you’re 45, and You’ve been crushing it for all these years? Cool story, bro.

disenchantMINT
01-28-2020, 06:50 PM
So this guy is part of ALK’s 1%, I’m thinking? So you’re 45, and You’ve been crushing it for all these years? Cool story, bro.

To be fair, he *is* crushing it for someone who can't figure out the difference between "than" and "then" after all these years.

OTZeagle1
01-28-2020, 08:48 PM
My apologies for my poor English, and I guess for my successes. My first two years at a regional and eight at Alaska were pretty meager. The last twelve years have been very good to me. Alaska has been a good career, it can be a lot better. You get one life, there are no points deducted for trying to make something with it!

Packrat
01-29-2020, 12:11 PM
Also what passenger airline pilots still have their pension? Not everyone at Alaska has it, but some do.

At one point we were given a choice whether you wanted to stay on the A plan or go to an increased 401 contribution. Most of us elderly types elected to keep the A plan.

MasterOfPuppets
01-29-2020, 06:52 PM
I think ‘05 took some of the luster off for me. Almost 20 years in and it’s been a ride. Hard to complain, lots of ups and downs though. Home on the sound, views out of almost every room, bought at a good time, only bummer is the 28k a year in tax on it. Drive to work, last year about 15 days a month off. I worked too hard, I drop and try to pick up as much good stuff as I can, some frown on it, I think it’s smart. Boat, small plane, more then I ever expected. Have one neighbor I think is in the same place as me, on the other side is a guy that probably throws away more money then I make. If I gaze too long out his direction, I feel like a looser, wonder why any one would become a pilot. I stayed all in that A plan, never voted anyone out of it, watched a lot of guys do it to themselves, wish everyone was in it. Have a good friend at SWA, commutes to OAK, lives in a track home, still probably 700k, he wishes he would have went to ALK. Every time he comes over he says, “ah so this is how a real pilot lives.” Seattle has gotten expensive though, worry about the new guys, I don’t think I would stay if I were them. Like to think this next contract will change a lot for them, but it would be hard to wait for a maybe if someone else were to call. Little more then 20 years left, I still enjoy flying, most everyone I fly with is awesome, it rarely feels like work.

this has GOT to be completely sarcastic.....that’s how I read it atleast. No one could be this egotistical and out of touch with reality.

ShyGuy
01-29-2020, 07:38 PM
Reads like a reasonable and honest post for someone his shoes, also admits new guys should do the math and decide if worth staying.

Texasbound
01-30-2020, 07:45 AM
Reads like a reasonable and honest post for someone his shoes, also admits new guys should do the math and decide if worth staying.

The problem is the math changes. Also if there is a merger and you leave and go to the airline the merger ends up happening with, you lost seniority and really screwed up your math calculations.

AJ Crowley
01-30-2020, 08:30 AM
At one point we were given a choice whether you wanted to stay on the A plan or go to an increased 401 contribution. Most of us elderly types elected to keep the A plan.


should read " we were given the choice to pull the ladder up behind us, and become the only pilot group to ever willingly give up a pension."

Big E 757
01-30-2020, 08:54 AM
Reads like a reasonable and honest post for someone his shoes, also admits new guys should do the math and decide if worth staying.


Seriously? You’re one of the most critical guys on here, when you’re on any other airline’s thread, but one of your own, posts an obnoxiously boastful post and your response is “sounds perfectly reasonable?”

450knotOffice
01-31-2020, 02:26 PM
Seriously? You’re one of the most critical guys on here, when you’re on any other airline’s thread, but one of your own, posts an obnoxiously boastful post and your response is “sounds perfectly reasonable?”

LOL, man. His response to the original post's title question, in a nutshell is essentially "yes, it worked out for me, but I'm not sure if it's necessarily the place for the junior folks." Like Shy, I also don't see an issue in his response.

ASAPsafetyGUY
02-05-2020, 03:49 PM
So are FOs leaving Alaska these days?

jamesholzhauer
02-05-2020, 05:17 PM
So are FOs leaving Alaska these days?
I know a new CA that lived in base that left to commute to AA...not a young guy either.

AnchorDown
02-05-2020, 05:45 PM
Yes, according to Union podcast, we lost 8 FOs in Jan alone, the thought is that number will ramp up as more hiring occurs at the Legacies.

cmrflyer
02-06-2020, 03:35 AM
There are captains and FOs leaving for frontier and spirit.

flyingt
02-06-2020, 10:07 AM
There are captains and FOs leaving for frontier and spirit.
That would be what you call a big financial mistake. Unless you don’t care and live in one of their bases

Mea25000
02-06-2020, 10:35 AM
Not this again... We have been loosing about 2.3 a month since the integration was completed. During that time all the majors have been hiring a significant number. Mostly UAL with a sprinkle of DAL, AMR, FDX, and SWA. I am not aware of any Spirit or Frontier departures. Maybe but there would have to be more to the story. No matter how hard you beat the drum, it really is still a joke and management laughs at our cries of the big bad wolf. The line goes out the door and around the corner waiting to get on here. Maybe if the contract grinds to stop, everyone on here spouts this stuff, it just isn’t true... maybe someday, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

ImperialxRat
02-06-2020, 10:35 AM
That would be what you call a big financial mistake. Unless you don’t care and live in one of their bases

I think that you would make more at Spirit, unless this person lived in Seattle. More productive trips, more opportunities for premium at Spirit.

Mea25000
02-06-2020, 10:46 AM
On a side note it seems we are quickly retreating back to the “bronze” growth model and Max 10’s... that will most likely chase a lot of junior guys and gals out of here. Hopefully, something gives soon and they decide again to take some risk. If we have such a great product lets go steal some market share, not hide in the hanger.

flysnoopy76
02-06-2020, 11:26 AM
On a side note it seems we are quickly retreating back to the “bronze” growth model and Max 10’s... that will most likely chase a lot of junior guys and gals out of here. Hopefully, something gives soon and they decide again to take some risk. If we have such a great product lets go steal some market share, not hide in the hanger.

Now there’s a big surprise

cmrflyer
02-06-2020, 01:40 PM
On a side note it seems we are quickly retreating back to the “bronze” growth model and Max 10’s... that will most likely chase a lot of junior guys and gals out of here. Hopefully, something gives soon and they decide again to take some risk. If we have such a great product lets go steal some market share, not hide in the hanger.

the problem (well, one of them) is the fact that Alaska doesn’t have a great product. That’s one of the main reasons Alaska’s transcon traffic has dropped.

WutFace
02-06-2020, 03:22 PM
Not this again... We have been loosing about 2.3 a month since the integration was completed. During that time all the majors have been hiring a significant number. Mostly UAL with a sprinkle of DAL, AMR, FDX, and SWA. I am not aware of any Spirit or Frontier departures. Maybe but there would have to be more to the story. No matter how hard you beat the drum, it really is still a joke and management laughs at our cries of the big bad wolf. The line goes out the door and around the corner waiting to get on here. Maybe if the contract grinds to stop, everyone on here spouts this stuff, it just isn’t true... maybe someday, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

MEA right now..
https://media.tenor.com/images/1b6192dc60fb6d0e78fdaa77d23c2b8b/tenor.gif

ShyGuy
02-06-2020, 03:37 PM
The two senior FOs who left for Frontier, one went as their new Director of Training (a good move for him). The other I don’t know what position he obtained at Frontier, but he is also a super smart guy who has taught sims before. Maybe he went as a line pilot or maybe as something in training. Not sure. But these two departures are unique based on their backgrounds.

rickair7777
02-06-2020, 05:43 PM
On a side note it seems we are quickly retreating back to the “bronze” growth model and Max 10’s... that will most likely chase a lot of junior guys and gals out of here. Hopefully, something gives soon and they decide again to take some risk. If we have such a great product lets go steal some market share, not hide in the hanger.

Anybody who wants a long happy career in the PNW/west coast is probably going to need the gold, or maybe silver plan.

Bronze = top guys getting the house in order before they sell the joint and cash out. AS needs to grow, or eventually get acquired (growth could hypothetically consist of them acquiring someone else, but no point in that if you're just going to downsize what you acquire).

KnockKnock
02-06-2020, 06:31 PM
There are captains and FOs leaving for frontier and spirit.
If you look at the new hire breakdowns that SD has put out over the last few months, there were a few Spirit guys that came here. Everyone has a shoe that fits them best. The latest attrition list only shows 22 FO’s and potentially 2 (non retirement) CA’s have left in the last 6 months. The rest of the attrition list is filled with retirements. Where are people getting 40+ FO’s have left? The above mentioned 8 FOs that left in Jan are on the current attrition list.

Thrill
02-06-2020, 06:55 PM
27 resigned in 2018.

39 resigned last year.

8 have left this year, to date.

More will follow soon.

I'm aware of no CA's that have left. At best someone may have held a CA bid, or certainly could have held one, but no ACTUAL CA has resigned.

KnockKnock
02-06-2020, 07:24 PM
27 resigned in 2018.

39 resigned last year.

8 have left this year, to date.

More will follow soon.

I'm aware of no CA's that have left. At best someone may have held a CA bid, or certainly could have held one, but no ACTUAL CA has resigned.
How many of those, “resigned”, went to other airlines and how many, “retired early”? How accurate is the attrition list? I count only 22 FO’s left from Aug 1st to Jan 28th. A handful of those FO’s had between 9-18 yrs until 65 so they didn’t necessarily go to other airlines. Two CA’s that left had 13 or less years to 65 so they could potentially have jumped ship. So how many pilots actually resigned AS and went to another airline?

Thrill
02-06-2020, 07:33 PM
The numbers I posted are actual resignations.

None of those noted are early retirees.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Texasbound
02-07-2020, 07:43 AM
I'm aware of no CA's that have left. At best someone may have held a CA bid, or certainly could have held one, but no ACTUAL CA has resigned.

Well, about 5 years ago I heard a Captain "resigned" and went to Spirit. Also, the word on the street is another Captain may soon resign...… he heard Delta pilots have better hot tubs at their layover hotels in LIH.

KnockKnock
02-07-2020, 08:00 AM
Well, about 5 years ago I heard a Captain "resigned" and went to Spirit. Also, the word on the street is another Captain may soon resign...… he heard Delta pilots have better hot tubs at their layover hotels in LIH.
Yeah, exactly. How many of those resignations were asked to resign vs. how many left and went to another carrier? I’ve been told we’ve had a number of “early retirements” over the last few years.

av8or
02-07-2020, 09:00 AM
On a side note it seems we are quickly retreating back to the “bronze” growth model and Max 10’s... that will most likely chase a lot of junior guys and gals out of here. Hopefully, something gives soon and they decide again to take some risk. If we have such a great product lets go steal some market share, not hide in the hanger.

just telling the guy I was flying with last night that, especially in this environment, “hey guys, let’s all pull together and save what we have left” isn’t very motivational compared to “let’s go kick some a$$!”

cmrflyer
02-07-2020, 03:55 PM
One captain took a down graded to to FO due to the terrible QOL, still didn’t enjoy his senior position as an Fo at Alaska, he is now at United. The senior FO that just left is now a $58 an hour FO at frontier, nothing more.
Most “legacy” airlines don’t see people flowing out to second tier airlines, that just doesn’t happen. When it happens here maybe people should put down the pipe and ask themselves why. Is it really that good here?

rickair7777
02-08-2020, 01:09 PM
One captain took a down graded to to FO due to the terrible QOL, still didn’t enjoy his senior position as an Fo at Alaska, he is now at United. The senior FO that just left is now a $58 an hour FO at frontier, nothing more.
Most “legacy” airlines don’t see people flowing out to second tier airlines, that just doesn’t happen. When it happens here maybe people should put down the pipe and ask themselves why. Is it really that good here?

I suspect there's a tiny handful of butt hurt VX commuters who might be willing to cut off their nose to spite their face, and would take any major job to stick it to the Eskimo. Also probably a few Eastern commuters who just can't move and have to choose between QOL and pay.

WutFace
02-08-2020, 01:13 PM
I suspect there's a tiny handful of butt hurt VX commuters who might be willing to cut off their nose to spite their face, and would take any major job to stick it to the Eskimo. Also probably a few Eastern commuters who just can't move and have to choose between QOL and pay.

With rumors of base closures and realignments floating around, you can bet it's more than a tiny handful.

fifidriver
02-08-2020, 03:27 PM
I suspect there's a tiny handful of butt hurt VX commuters who might be willing to cut off their nose to spite their face, and would take any major job to stick it to the Eskimo. Also probably a few Eastern commuters who just can't move and have to choose between QOL and pay.
Butt hurt huh? No, for me it is making the smart but difficult choice abandoning 3 years of seniority. Nonetheless, I would be crazy not to take a job at one of the 2 legacies and be able to drive to work rather than commute at least 4 times a month to the west coast (uncommutable schedule 14 days off and 75hrs of credit). Call me crazy or butt hurt but I'm out!

Ala5ka
02-08-2020, 04:12 PM
I was so butt hurt that I decided to leave for a place where I’ll make tons more, have a multitude of options of what I want to fly, options of where I want to fly around the world, have a great schedule, a strong union, good crew meals, and dozens of other reasons. God what an idiot I am for letting my butthurtness convince me to leave Alaska for all of that. I suspect there's a tiny handful of butt hurt VX commuters who might be willing to cut off their nose to spite their face, and would take any major job to stick it to the Eskimo. Also probably a few Eastern commuters who just can't move and have to choose between QOL and pay.

9mikemike
02-08-2020, 09:07 PM
Legacy and Major... Neither term means what it once did....in pilots minds. It is comical that both Alaska and
Hawaiian are considered Legacy Major Airlines. It is comical that Jetblue, Spirit and Allegiant are considered
major airlines. Those are business terms. I can only speak for Alaska. There is nothing “Legacy or Major” about the place.
Contractually, Operationally, Structurally...It does not exist now, never has and never will. Does not mean that it is not a decent job.
It is just not one of those jobs. Pilots leave for those jobs because they are always better jobs. Only a certain number of pilots have what it takes to get there.,.,

jamesholzhauer
02-08-2020, 09:45 PM
Legacy and Major... Neither term means what it once did....in pilots minds. It is comical that both Alaska and
Hawaiian are considered Legacy Major Airlines. It is comical that Jetblue, Spirit and Allegiant are considered
major airlines. Those are business terms. I can only speak for Alaska. There is nothing “Legacy or Major” about the place.
Contractually, Operationally, Structurally...It does not exist now, never has and never will. Does not mean that it is not a decent job.
It is just not one of those jobs. Pilots leave for those jobs because they are always better jobs. Only a certain number of pilots have what it takes to get there.,.,

A legacy airline is an airline that conducted interstate commerce prior to deregulation in 1978. That’s it. Size/revenue/product is irrelevant.

A major airline is by definition an airline that has an operating revenue in excess of $1 billion. That isn’t a very large threshold in today’s world. Flying under one’s own brand and selling it’s own tickets is another criteria sometimes applied here (SkyWest has an operating revenue over $1bil but generally isn’t regarded as a major).

There are also other differentiating terms like full service carrier, LCC/ULCC/budget carrier, and network carrier. But those terms are somewhat hard to define.

The only thing that stays the same in the airline industry is change. Airlines come and go. Airline quality comes and goes. Pilot contracts come and go. Airline relative size changes, especially with waves of consolidation and bankruptcies. Make the best decision you can with what you know today, strap in and enjoy the ride. In 20-30 years, I doubt the US airline industry will look like it does today.

Texasbound
02-09-2020, 08:09 AM
Butt hurt huh? No, for me it is making the smart but difficult choice abandoning 3 years of seniority. Nonetheless, I would be crazy not to take a job at one of the 2 legacies and be able to drive to work rather than commute at least 4 times a month to the west coast (uncommutable schedule 14 days off and 75hrs of credit). Call me crazy or butt hurt but I'm out!


It took you 3 years to figure that out? Everyone has been hiring since 2014. Also better Hope Alaska doesn't merge with the company to went to.

cmrflyer
02-09-2020, 10:42 AM
Jesus, why so hostile. We get it, you love the place.
bad pay, check, terrible work rules, check, zero QOL of life, check.
we get it. You think it’s brilliant.

fifidriver
02-09-2020, 10:56 AM
It took you 3 years to figure that out? Everyone has been hiring since 2014. Also better Hope Alaska doesn't merge with the company to went to.
No I had better schedule my first month as a line holder at VX than the past 6 months bidding almost half way down the list in my base. So no, it didn't take me 3 years, I planned on staying at first. I dont care if my new company merges with Alaska, regardless, I will be driving to work long before the merger is if ever finalized! If your plan is to hope for a merger then good luck! 😉

Texasbound
02-09-2020, 11:21 AM
Jesus, why so hostile. We get it, you love the place.
bad pay, check, terrible work rules, check, zero QOL of life, check.
we get it. You think it’s brilliant.

I don't fly for Alaska, was just commenting on him saying he is leaving after 3 years. Should have left sooner, Alaska didn't change overnight, I know plenty of Alaska pilots, some love it, the ones that hate it left years ago.

Like people tell me. The VX pilots loved their old way of doing schedules, seems they never figured out, or are slow to figure out, their company no longer exists... and their way of doing business is what led to that.

fifidriver
02-09-2020, 11:32 AM
]I don't fly for Alaska[/b], was just commenting on him saying he is leaving after 3 years. Should have left sooner, Alaska didn't change overnight, I know plenty of Alaska pilots, some love it, the ones that hate it left years ago.

Like people tell me. The VX pilots loved their old way of doing schedules, seems they never figured out, or are slow to figure out, their company no longer exists... and their way of doing business is what led to that.
For someone who doesn't fly for Alaska, you sure spend quite a bit of time here on Alaska forum. 😉

Texasbound
02-09-2020, 11:43 AM
For someone who doesn't fly for Alaska, you sure spend quite a bit of time here on Alaska forum. 😉

I go where I am needed.

Oh, and who are the pilots posting in the Breeze/Moxy thread? Pretty sure none of them work there.

rickair7777
02-09-2020, 01:55 PM
I was so butt hurt that I decided to leave for a place where I’ll make tons more, have a multitude of options of what I want to fly, options of where I want to fly around the world, have a great schedule, a strong union, good crew meals, and dozens of other reasons. God what an idiot I am for letting my butthurtness convince me to leave Alaska for all of that.


Young guy leaving for a legacy sure, would make sense even if you're a CA.

I'm talking about people going to ULCC.

Ala5ka
02-10-2020, 06:40 AM
My mistake. Yes I agree. Sorry.
Young guy leaving for a legacy sure, would make sense even if you're a CA.

I'm talking about people going to ULCC.

Ala5ka
02-10-2020, 06:42 AM
A merger between Alaska and one of the big 3 would not yield the result most at Alaska think it would. The fences would be insurmountable on anything larger than a 737/321 which at the big three are the junior aircraft. Every single person on the existing list would have to have the opportunity to bid for the largest airframe before a single merged pilot could. It makes more sense to get hired and be “junior” to someone at the merged company that you used to be senior to bc at the end of the day your career expectations will still be higher.

Leaving Alaska for any of the big 3 is a no brainer for all FOs and would even argue 1-2 year captains. I could not be happier to have left. Life improvement is enormous.It took you 3 years to figure that out? Everyone has been hiring since 2014. Also better Hope Alaska doesn't merge with the company to went to.

rickair7777
02-10-2020, 06:53 AM
A merger between Alaska and one of the big 3 would not yield the result most at Alaska think it would. The fences would be insurmountable on anything larger than a 737/321 which at the big three are the junior aircraft. Every single person on the existing list would have to have the opportunity to bid for the largest airframe before a single merged pilot could. It makes more sense to get hired and be “junior” to someone at the merged company that you used to be senior to bc at the end of the day your career expectations will still be higher.

Leaving Alaska for any of the big 3 is a no brainer for all FOs and would even argue 1-2 year captains. I could not be happier to have left. Life improvement is enormous.

Fences typically are established for five-ish years, from what I recall. Don't recall any "lifetime" fences.

BobZ
02-10-2020, 07:47 AM
Not lifetime but close was republic-nwa.

Be careful what you ask for.....you might just get it is the accepted lesson in that integration.

Mea25000
02-10-2020, 10:25 AM
A merger between Alaska and one of the big 3 would not yield the result most at Alaska think it would. The fences would be insurmountable on anything larger than a 737/321 which at the big three are the junior aircraft. Every single person on the existing list would have to have the opportunity to bid for the largest airframe before a single merged pilot could. It makes more sense to get hired and be “junior” to someone at the merged company that you used to be senior to bc at the end of the day your career expectations will still be higher.

Leaving Alaska for any of the big 3 is a no brainer for all FOs and would even argue 1-2 year captains. I could not be happier to have left. Life improvement is enormous.

That is a joke... I hope you are kidding. There is no way that would fly, even in your delusional world. AS will do just fine in any merger. 3-5 year fence on wide bodies tops. I don’t think that it will happen though. I would guess we are more likely to purchase 787’s then merge with any of the big 3... never say never though.

I do know BT has regular conversations with OM... I think he is no longer the CEO of UAL though... but hey run with it!

tolowgear
02-10-2020, 12:47 PM
I don't fly for Alaska, was just commenting on him saying he is leaving after 3 years. Should have left sooner, Alaska didn't change overnight, I know plenty of Alaska pilots, some love it, the ones that hate it left years ago.

Like people tell me. The VX pilots loved their old way of doing schedules, seems they never figured out, or are slow to figure out, their company no longer exists... and their way of doing business is what led to that.

Not true at all. All pre merger legacy VX pilots understood that Alaskas CBA was the worst in the industry and their Line bidding was out right pathetic. Along with the trip construction that is so laughable because of a fatigue mitigation committee. That is so far out of touch with reality and does not listen to the vast chunk of none SEA based pilots. It did not take us long at all. Most majors have not been hiring in large #s until just recently or had adjusted their hiring #s to less than predicted for a year or two. From the amount of pilots that I fly with at AS that are actively seeking , i'd say we will see a larger amount leave now for better jobs and airlines with future plans and growth and better work rules and pay. Along with better QOL and job options.

Being a pilot is becoming a business, we have to make the business decision of what is best for us as individuals. And with all other carries having far better CBA's and future plans it makes more sense for pilots to leave for what ever reason they see fit. Alaska has a very bad track record of not really doing the right thing for its pilot group and the work rules are just out right pathetic and nothing short of a shameful disgrace to this industry. NO SCOPE NO JOB protection, with the lame threat of an alter ego airline being set up to fly under the Alaska Air Group.

To all of you you make comments about how stupid it would be to jump ship and go elsewhere. You could not be further from the truth. To call VX pilots butt hurt and that's why they are leaving is not really mature of any of you. Until you have walked a mile in their shoes. I would shut up.

Well done and Congratulations to those of you who have managed to jump this sinking POS ship. Did I mention it has the worst CBA out there?????

ASAPsafetyGUY
02-10-2020, 01:09 PM
No I had better schedule my first month as a line holder at VX than the past 6 months bidding almost half way down the list in my base. So no, it didn't take me 3 years, I planned on staying at first. I dont care if my new company merges with Alaska, regardless, I will be driving to work long before the merger is if ever finalized! If your plan is to hope for a merger then good luck! 😉

OMG. Who’s merging with AS now?

ASAPsafetyGUY
02-10-2020, 01:18 PM
Not true at all. All pre merger legacy VX pilots understood that Alaskas CBA was the worst in the industry and their Line bidding was out right pathetic. Along with the trip construction that is so laughable because of a fatigue mitigation committee. That is so far out of touch with reality and does not listen to the vast chunk of none SEA based pilots. It did not take us long at all. Most majors have not been hiring in large #s until just recently or had adjusted their hiring #s to less than predicted for a year or two. From the amount of pilots that I fly with at AS that are actively seeking , i'd say we will see a larger amount leave now for better jobs and airlines with future plans and growth and better work rules and pay. Along with better QOL and job options.

Being a pilot is becoming a business, we have to make the business decision of what is best for us as individuals. And with all other carries having far better CBA's and future plans it makes more sense for pilots to leave for what ever reason they see fit. Alaska has a very bad track record of not really doing the right thing for its pilot group and the work rules are just out right pathetic and nothing short of a shameful disgrace to this industry. NO SCOPE NO JOB protection, with the lame threat of an alter ego airline being set up to fly under the Alaska Air Group.

To all of you you make comments about how stupid it would be to jump ship and go elsewhere. You could not be further from the truth. To call VX pilots butt hurt and that's why they are leaving is not really mature of any of you. Until you have walked a mile in their shoes. I would shut up.

Well done and Congratulations to those of you who have managed to jump this sinking POS ship. Did I mention it has the worst CBA out there?????

I can’t help it. Every time you post, all I see are those memes with dudes with tattoos with TO instead of TOO. Lol.:D;) I agree with your statement. Especially for guys, particularly FOs less than 40. Loads of opportunities to jump ship. Spirit upgrades are 2.5 years, over 100 planes still on the way. UPS selecting over 80% of interviewees (interviewer told me), Frontier 321 xlr order with massive growth scheduled; list goes on. For those unhappy, I suggest simply applying elsewhere, take the interview (you’ll definitely get a call), and then make the decision whether it’s for you...after the interview. That’s the environment we are currently in. It won’t last.

Texasbound
02-10-2020, 01:50 PM
Frontier 321 xlr order with massive growth scheduled; list goes on.

Boy, If I had a dollar for every time I heard some company has growth "Scheduled"... Growth happens or it doesn't, going somewhere based on a promise of growth? Good luck with that.

Weren't the VX pilots promised a flow through to Virgin Galactic when they were starting up?

busbusbaby
02-10-2020, 02:26 PM
Boy, If I had a dollar for every time I heard some company has growth "Scheduled"... Growth happens or it doesn't, going somewhere based on a promise of growth? Good luck with that.

Weren't the VX pilots promised a flow through to Virgin Galactic when they were starting up?

No we weren’t that is the most asinine statement I’ve heard to date. 😂

All Bizniz
02-10-2020, 04:37 PM
Like people tell me. The VX pilots loved their XoldX NEW way of doing schedules...
Fixed that for ya!

Galaxy5
02-10-2020, 09:48 PM
No, that is PNWFlyer. Known him since 05. He is where I get my Alaska info.


He’s been pretty mum about the Max fiasco for a while now after being so firey initially.

ExFokkerFlyer
02-11-2020, 08:09 AM
Weren't the VX pilots promised a flow through to Virgin Galactic when they were starting up?



It wasn’t a guaranteed flow through. We were told that they would like to hire a large portion, I heard the term “half”, of the future Galactic pilots from the Virgin umbrella of companies. This was actually said to us by official sources, one of them a base CP at the time. In fact, he and two other pilots were rolled out as the first commercial astronauts at a Virgin Galactic press junket in Mojave. One of those pilots is at AK now, the other two left for Spirit some time back. One of those... is involved with Frontier right now.

Now NONE of this was ever going to happen, but it was just a way to dangle the carrot. We actually had a pilot that had retired at SWA come OUT of retirement and work for us just because he thought this was a real possibility. No joke.

VX had a lot of BS in the day. EVERYTHING was marketing. But still, with all the stupid stuff aside, night and day a better place to work. No question.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Texasbound
02-11-2020, 08:28 AM
It wasn’t a guaranteed flow through. We were told that they would like to hire a large portion, I heard the term “half”, of the future Galactic pilots from the Virgin umbrella of companies. This was actually said to us by official sources, one of them a base CP at the time. In fact, he and two other pilots were rolled out as the first commercial astronauts at a Virgin Galactic press junket in Mojave. One of those pilots is at AK now, the other two left for Spirit some time back. One of those... is involved with Frontier right now.

Now NONE of this was ever going to happen, but it was just a way to dangle the carrot. We actually had a pilot that had retired at SWA come OUT of retirement and work for us just because he thought this was a real possibility. No joke.

VX had a lot of BS in the day. EVERYTHING was marketing. But still, with all the stupid stuff aside, night and day a better place to work. No question.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Wow, I was just joking.

But, this is how we ended up with Space Force also.

The president described how he’d originally coined the term as a joke, while discussing U.S. government spending and private investment in space. “I said, ‘maybe we need a new force, we’ll call it the Space Force,’ and I was not really serious. Then I said, ‘what a great idea,’ maybe we’ll have to do that,” Trump told the crowd of Marines.

rickair7777
02-11-2020, 09:03 AM
Wow, I was just joking.

But, this is how we ended up with Space Force also.

We kind of needed an organization to coordinate mil space stuff. AF had the defacto lead, but the inter-service aspect been a complete CF and if you extrapolate that forward to future requirements it would be a diasaster.

Probably should have called it "Space Service" though. Or created a global combatant command, that would have been a better place to start, could be upgraded to a full service later if needed.

ExperimentalAB
02-11-2020, 09:17 AM
Knocking the “Space Force” will make you look as silly in the future as those who called the Air Force a ridiculous idea nearly a century ago.

Fokker28
02-11-2020, 10:29 AM
Knocking the “Space Force” will make you look as silly in the future as those who called the Air Force a ridiculous idea nearly a century ago.

Happy to take that chance.

tolowgear
02-11-2020, 06:28 PM
I can’t help it. Every time you post, all I see are those memes with dudes with tattoos with TO instead of TOO. Lol.:D;) I agree with your statement. Especially for guys, particularly FOs less than 40. Loads of opportunities to jump ship. Spirit upgrades are 2.5 years, over 100 planes still on the way. UPS selecting over 80% of interviewees (interviewer told me), Frontier 321 xlr order with massive growth scheduled; list goes on. For those unhappy, I suggest simply applying elsewhere, take the interview (you’ll definitely get a call), and then make the decision whether it’s for you...after the interview. That’s the environment we are currently in. It won’t last.

I actually missed spelled it on purpose to see if anyone was paying attention. Also because I always think of that Tattoo " no ragrets" Movie quote time " really ? no regrets, not even that tattoo?". This is a place that can get serious to quickly and I tend to put a few catches to those smart enough to pick up.

NewGuy01
02-12-2020, 07:01 AM
That is a joke... I hope you are kidding. There is no way that would fly, even in your delusional world. AS will do just fine in any merger. 3-5 year fence on wide bodies tops. I don’t think that it will happen though. I would guess we are more likely to purchase 787’s then merge with any of the big 3... never say never though.



I do know BT has regular conversations with OM... I think he is no longer the CEO of UAL though... but hey run with it!



Ugh. You aren’t that line check airman that tells us we are going to get 787s are you?

The best part was he also told me we were probably going to start operating 73s for Amazon. The same day Sun Country got the contract....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Mea25000
02-12-2020, 07:20 AM
No, I would put both as unlikely. Of the two, I think it’s more likely we get 787 then we merge with one of the big 3.

ShyGuy
02-12-2020, 02:12 PM
I actually missed spelled it on purpose to see if anyone was paying attention. Also because I always think of that Tattoo " no ragrets" Movie quote time " really ? no regrets, not even that tattoo?". This is a place that can get serious to quickly and I tend to put a few catches to those smart enough to pick up.

It was, “Not even a single letter?”

ShyGuy
02-12-2020, 02:13 PM
MAX certification flights coming soon, finally.

Mea25000
02-12-2020, 02:18 PM
MAX certification flights coming soon, finally.

Inside of a week to 10 days... It will be good for all of our careers to have this behind us. Sounds like a significant number of the MAX 9’s will become MAX 10’s.

flysnoopy76
02-12-2020, 02:51 PM
Inside of a week to 10 days... It will be good for all of our careers to have this behind us. Sounds like a significant number of the MAX 9’s will become MAX 10’s.

so I would guess fewer total airframes then?

NewGuy01
02-12-2020, 02:56 PM
so I would guess fewer total airframes then?



Yeah but more gates for regional aircraft!!

I know we’re talking about bronze level career progression but I’m thinking more like turd or lead.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cruz5350
02-12-2020, 03:07 PM
Inside of a week to 10 days... It will be good for all of our careers to have this behind us. Sounds like a significant number of the MAX 9’s will become MAX 10’s.

Cool we should start the process of negotiating for 757 rates since this is basically the same seating capacity.

NewGuy01
02-12-2020, 03:24 PM
Are any other pilot groups negotiating rates for the MAX 10?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

9mikemike
02-12-2020, 03:51 PM
Inside of a week to 10 days... It will be good for all of our careers to have this behind us. Sounds like a significant number of the MAX 9’s will become MAX 10’s.
Junky airplanes but they will work I suppose. Mainly because we are competing with Spirit, Frontier and Allegiant. That and PNW passengers are not into comfort. They thought the 900ER was a slave ship, the Maximus Ten will be the queen of the slave ship fleet.

Cruz5350
02-12-2020, 05:31 PM
Are any other pilot groups negotiating rates for the MAX 10?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Delta says the 321 NEO will be a negotiated rate according to a screen shot I have from their pay scales. Maybe someone from Delta can chime in and clarify.

ShyGuy
02-12-2020, 07:15 PM
Wishful thinking but it would be nice if we were to order a spread of MAX 7-10s. All variants. That way we secure same fleet type that has ~ 130-210 seats. The problem with a MAX 9 or 10 only order is that it secures the 180+ seat market. Huge gap below 180 seats and above 76 RJ seats.

flysnoopy76
02-12-2020, 07:19 PM
Wishful thinking but it would be nice if we were to order a spread of MAX 7-10s. All variants. That way we secure same fleet type that has ~ 130-210 seats. The problem with a MAX 9 or 10 only order is that it secures the 180+ seat market. Huge gap below 180 seats and above 76 RJ seats.

That’s ok, perhaps that segment of the market is what they want to cover with their alter ego carrier.

echelon
02-12-2020, 07:54 PM
Sounds like a significant number of the MAX 9’s will become MAX 10’s.

You consistently seem to have a very different idea of what "good for our careers" means than I do

Mea25000
02-12-2020, 09:29 PM
You consistently seem to have a very different idea of what "good for our careers" means than I do

I think not taking aircraft and shrinking is bad for everyone, I think taking aircraft and growing is good for everyone.

I have no clue what you think is good for your career. My guess: 500 321XLRs, 100 350’s. Delta pay plus 20 percent, guaranteed 20 days off a month, company pays to commute you in and out for each trip, 30 percent profit sharing, 200 hours a year in sick leave, 200 hours vacation. I bet if you got all that, you still would be miserable. Life is short, everyone is hiring.

6/3/3/3, decent upgrades to section 25, Industry scope, 25% total pilot seniority list growth over the next five years. That’s what I see, if you can’t live with that run. If a recession hits, all bets are off though.

Big E 757
02-13-2020, 03:06 AM
I actually missed spelled it on purpose to see if anyone was paying attention. Also because I always think of that Tattoo " no ragrets" Movie quote time " really ? no regrets, not even that tattoo?". This is a place that can get serious to quickly and I tend to put a few catches to those smart enough to pick up.

Was this disaster on purpose too?

NewGuy01
02-13-2020, 03:38 AM
I think not taking aircraft and shrinking is bad for everyone, I think taking aircraft and growing is good for everyone.



I have no clue what you think is good for your career. My guess: 500 321XLRs, 100 350’s. Delta pay plus 20 percent, guaranteed 20 days off a month, company pays to commute you in and out for each trip, 30 percent profit sharing, 200 hours a year in sick leave, 200 hours vacation. I bet if you got all that, you still would be miserable. Life is short, everyone is hiring.



6/3/3/3, decent upgrades to section 25, Industry scope, 25% total pilot seniority list growth over the next five years. That’s what I see, if you can’t live with that run. If a recession hits, all bets are off though.



Dude. All he meant was a MAX 10 order would mean less airframes than a mixed order of MAX 7/8/9/10.

Somehow you had to reach for the childish Airbus vs Boeing topic before going off the rails on yet another childish rant.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Flaps1check
02-13-2020, 07:17 AM
I think not taking aircraft and shrinking is bad for everyone, I think taking aircraft and growing is good for everyone.

I have no clue what you think is good for your career. My guess: 500 321XLRs, 100 350’s. Delta pay plus 20 percent, guaranteed 20 days off a month, company pays to commute you in and out for each trip, 30 percent profit sharing, 200 hours a year in sick leave, 200 hours vacation. I bet if you got all that, you still would be miserable. Life is short, everyone is hiring.
That’s a yes vote for me!

6/3/3/3, decent upgrades to section 25, Industry scope, 25% total pilot seniority list growth over the next five years. That’s what I see, if you can’t live with that run. If a recession hits, all bets are off though.
That’s a no vote for me, total rewrite required!

THE SHAFT
02-13-2020, 07:29 AM
25% total pilot seniority list growth over the next five years.


They are gonna put that in C2022 as well???? Sounds like a standard management carrot. I’m confident the bottom 3/4 of this list won’t fall for any of the propaganda.

cmrflyer
02-13-2020, 08:50 AM
^^^^^^ what he said.

tolowgear
02-13-2020, 09:38 AM
[QUOTE=Big E 757;2975904]Was this disaster on purpose too?[/QUOTE
https://images.app.goo.gl/Jpw7HDFqhKFGaUAJ6

Outdoors
02-13-2020, 01:46 PM
You consistently seem to have a very different idea of what "good for our careers" means than I do

Haha no kidding

9mikemike
02-26-2020, 07:08 AM
It will be interesting to eventually see the results of the RFP that Alaska Airlines has out with Boeing, Embraer and Airbus.
The fact that they grouped the MAX7, the E195-E2 and the A220-2,3 into the same RFP is indicative that they intend to pay one
rate for all fleets operated by Alaska Airlines. It is also indicative that the winner of this RFP will be providing Alaska Airlines with these
aircraft and not a subsidiary/FFD operator....

flysnoopy76
02-26-2020, 07:39 AM
It will be interesting to eventually see the results of the RFP that Alaska Airlines has out with Boeing, Embraer and Airbus.
The fact that they grouped the MAX7, the E195-E2 and the A220-2,3 into the same RFP is indicative that they intend to pay one
rate for all fleets operated by Alaska Airlines. It is also indicative that the winner of this RFP will be providing Alaska Airlines with these
aircraft and not a subsidiary/FFD operator....

What makes you say that? They could put any of those airplanes you mentioned at Horizon. I’m not saying they would necessarily, just that given our current contract they could.

9mikemike
02-26-2020, 07:43 AM
And some interesting discussions from the FAA relating to certification of the MAX series. The potential that a “conditional”
TC be issued for only the existing completed SN’s. A requirement that Boeing get those safely operating before they are issued
a full TC to continue production. Stepped-up direct FAA inspection of all Boeing operations to include all Boeing vendors. On the MAX 10 front it may end up with its own TC requiring an add-on to the 737 type.

From Boeing themselves, they do not see designing, certifying and producing a replacement to the single-aisle fleet(737, 757) before 2030....

airb320
02-28-2020, 03:48 PM
Time to dig the 757 up, put a composite wing, last generation engine on it and move forward! Scrap the MAX, take the loss and move on.

ShyGuy
02-28-2020, 07:04 PM
Time to dig the 757 up, put a composite wing, last generation engine on it and move forward! Scrap the MAX, take the loss and move on.

They're not gonna scrap the MAX. It will be certified and successful for years to come.

NewGuy01
02-28-2020, 09:50 PM
Time to dig the 757 up, put a composite wing, last generation engine on it and move forward! Scrap the MAX, take the loss and move on.



How man billions would that cost??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

9mikemike
02-29-2020, 06:41 PM
It may be a success but it is the end of the line for the old girl... Amen

airb320
02-29-2020, 07:05 PM
How man billions would that cost??

You are kidding, right? The 737 should never have been stretched, updated etc. the way it has.
Getting rid of the 757 was one of the biggest mistakes Boeing ever made in favor of their own 737 program. Scrapping the 737 program should have come long ago, it was a great airplane in the past, time has moved on.
Boeing needs to move on from this Disaster and cut their losses, simple

NewGuy01
02-29-2020, 07:07 PM
You are kidding, right? The 737 should never have been stretched, updated etc. the way it has.

Getting rid of the 757 was one of the biggest mistakes Boeing ever made in favor of their own 737 program. Scrapping the 737 program should have come long ago, it was a great airplane in the past, time has moved on.

Boeing needs to move on from this Disaster and cut their losses, simple



No argument from me but I mean, the deal is done. There are billions of dollars worth of 737s parked at just Moses Lake. It would cost billions to just scrap those aircraft. It will never happen.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Packrat
03-01-2020, 09:38 AM
No argument from me but I mean, the deal is done. There are billions of dollars worth of 737s parked at just Moses Lake. It would cost billions to just scrap those aircraft. It will never happen.

Its the same as the rudder reversal issue in the past, except for the arrogance of the Boeing managers who approved the whole MCAS debacle.

Flaps1check
03-10-2020, 06:03 AM
I think not taking aircraft and shrinking is bad for everyone, I think taking aircraft and growing is good for everyone.

I have no clue what you think is good for your career. My guess: 500 321XLRs, 100 350’s. Delta pay plus 20 percent, guaranteed 20 days off a month, company pays to commute you in and out for each trip, 30 percent profit sharing, 200 hours a year in sick leave, 200 hours vacation. I bet if you got all that, you still would be miserable. Life is short, everyone is hiring.

6/3/3/3, decent upgrades to section 25, Industry scope, 25% total pilot seniority list growth over the next five years. That’s what I see, if you can’t live with that run. If a recession hits, all bets are off though.

and now all bets are off, all the sudden the max recertification isn’t Boeing’s biggest problem anymore.

Texasbound
03-10-2020, 07:26 AM
and now all bets are off, all the sudden the max recertification isn’t Boeing’s biggest problem anymore.

Funny, now airlines are glad they don't have to take delivery of new airplanes for a while.

Pilot553
03-10-2020, 07:41 AM
What might an announcement from BT say given the state of other airlines?

echelon
03-10-2020, 06:30 PM
Nice job.

https://www.flightglobal.com/strategy/alaska-airlines-not-yet-cutting-capacity-due-to-coronavirus/137168.article

Happy, Mr. Hallway Monitor?