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View Full Version : Profit sharing


GuppyPuppy
01-30-2020, 05:10 AM
As a B6 pilot I am curious as to how much your profit sharing works out to be as far as percentage of pay. AS is showing a profit of $769M, which is $1M more than B6 for 2019.

Our profit sharing was 0.0%.

What did yours work out to be?

Thanks,

GP


Flaps1check
01-30-2020, 05:53 AM
As a B6 pilot I am curious as to how much your profit sharing works out to be as far as percentage of pay. AS is showing a profit of $769M, which is $1M more than B6 for 2019.

Our profit sharing was 0.0%.

What did yours work out to be?

Thanks,

GP

7% of eligible earnings

Texasbound
01-30-2020, 07:40 AM
7% of eligible earnings

Actually it was closer to 7.0449987510259%


KnockKnock
01-30-2020, 08:12 AM
As a B6 pilot I am curious as to how much your profit sharing works out to be as far as percentage of pay. AS is showing a profit of $769M, which is $1M more than B6 for 2019.

Our profit sharing was 0.0%.

What did yours work out to be?

Thanks,

GP
It’s not a true “profit sharing” program. It’s a performance based pay program. 70% is derived from profit the other 30% is based off of safety, customers satisfaction and costs. Those 3 non profit goal posts have a funny way of moving around year to year. Sorry to hear you guys got snubbed this year. What was your managements rationale behind cutting the pilots out?

Texasbound
01-30-2020, 09:42 AM
What was your managements rationale behind cutting the pilots out?

Are you serious?

What is other management's rationale for paying out profit sharing?

Clue: It's in the contract.

Trust me, If the Delta pilots did not have profit sharing in their contract their number would have been ZERO as well. Along with all the other non-union employees at Delta riding the coat tails of the pilot contract.

ShyGuy
01-30-2020, 12:57 PM
Are you serious?

What is other management's rationale for paying out profit sharing?

Clue: It's in the contract.

Trust me, If the Delta pilots did not have profit sharing in their contract their number would have been ZERO as well. Along with all the other non-union employees at Delta riding the coat tails of the pilot contract.



Its not in the AS pilot contract yet we got a profit share. Delta would have too, maybe not as high as 16% but still would have gotten something.

GuppyPuppy
01-30-2020, 01:11 PM
7% of eligible earnings

Thanks. Appreciate the help.

GP

GuppyPuppy
01-30-2020, 01:20 PM
Itís not a true ďprofit sharingĒ program. Itís a performance based pay program. 70% is derived from profit the other 30% is based off of safety, customers satisfaction and costs. Those 3 non profit goal posts have a funny way of moving around year to year. Sorry to hear you guys got snubbed this year. What was your managements rationale behind cutting the pilots out?

They changed the formula before we agreed on our first contract. There was nothing we could do about it. They gave everyone an 8% raise when they changed it saying, "It's better to have the money up front, right?". The thing is, they knew we were getting close on a pilot contract and wanted to find a way to not pay out unless we made a ridiculous amount of money. The thing is, that 8% raise brought our agents and rampers up to par with their peers. The company sold it as kind of 'profit sharing up front'.

Also, there is a "cliff" to our profit sharing. They used to call it "guaranteed profit sharing" where you would get 5% of your wages put in to your retirement account no matter if a profit was made or not. That cliff applies to the pilots as far as profit sharing goes. In 2018, the profit sharing amounted to 5.2%. Since the cliff is in place, we were only paid 0.2% for profit sharing for 2018. Do the math. Most pilots saw a check for less than $400.00. Most agents/rampers saw about $40.00.

Evil.

GP

PNWFlyer
01-30-2020, 01:26 PM
Its not in the AS pilot contract yet we got a profit share. Delta would have too, maybe not as high as 16% but still would have gotten something.

Guess you should read your contract.

section 3
Compensation

sub section D
Performance Base Pay (PBP)

PBP is our profit sharing. Know your contract.

KnockKnock
01-30-2020, 02:50 PM
Are you serious?

What is other management's rationale for paying out profit sharing?

Clue: It's in the contract.

Trust me, If the Delta pilots did not have profit sharing in their contract their number would have been ZERO as well. Along with all the other non-union employees at Delta riding the coat tails of the pilot contract.
Yea, I’m serious, are you? JB has gotten profit sharing checks in the past. Some higher than what we’ve received. I’m wondering what triggers a pay out and why during a profitable year, they wouldn’t get one? Also....I have no idea what’s in JB’s contract regarding PS. I don’t work there.

KnockKnock
01-30-2020, 02:56 PM
They changed the formula before we agreed on our first contract. There was nothing we could do about it. They gave everyone an 8% raise when they changed it saying, "It's better to have the money up front, right?". The thing is, they knew we were getting close on a pilot contract and wanted to find a way to not pay out unless we made a ridiculous amount of money. The thing is, that 8% raise brought our agents and rampers up to par with their peers. The company sold it as kind of 'profit sharing up front'.

Also, there is a "cliff" to our profit sharing. They used to call it "guaranteed profit sharing" where you would get 5% of your wages put in to your retirement account no matter if a profit was made or not. That cliff applies to the pilots as far as profit sharing goes. In 2018, the profit sharing amounted to 5.2%. Since the cliff is in place, we were only paid 0.2% for profit sharing for 2018. Do the math. Most pilots saw a check for less than $400.00. Most agents/rampers saw about $40.00.

Evil.

GP
I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I didn’t realize it had been removed from your new contract.

Texasbound
01-30-2020, 03:16 PM
Yea, Iím serious, are you? JB has gotten profit sharing checks in the past. Some higher than what weíve received. Iím wondering what triggers a pay out and why during a profitable year, they wouldnít get one? Also....I have no idea whatís in JBís contract regarding PS. I donít work there.

Well, I do know what is in JB's contact. It is spelled pout in post #8. JB management changed the formula in their contract to prevent big payouts. I also know what everyone else's is because I read the ALPA contact comparisons.

When are pilots going to understand, companies do not pay out profit sharing because they love you or think you deserve it. They do it because contract says so. In the case of the non-union Delta employees, they got it to keep them from unionizing.

The only people that hate Delta's profit sharing, is Delta management.

ShyGuy
01-30-2020, 03:34 PM
Guess you should read your contract.

section 3
Compensation

sub section D
Performance Base Pay (PBP)

PBP is our profit sharing. Know your contract.




Ahh, I see. Thank you. OPR is the one not contractual?

PNWFlyer
01-30-2020, 03:58 PM
Ahh, I see. Thank you. OPR is the one not contractual?

Yes, Offer Peanuts Regularly (OPR), is out of the kindness of the BMís cold dead heart.

KnockKnock
01-30-2020, 04:11 PM
Well, I do know what is in JB's contact. It is spelled pout in post #8. JB management changed the formula in their contract to prevent big payouts. I also know what everyone else's is because I read the ALPA contact comparisons.

When are pilots going to understand, companies do not pay out profit sharing because they love you or think you deserve it. They do it because contract says so. In the case of the non-union Delta employees, they got it to keep them from unionizing.

The only people that hate Delta's profit sharing, is Delta management.
I’m under no illusion that ps is paid out of the goodness of any managements heart. I knew JB had been getting ps in the past and was curious why this year they weren’t. I wasn’t aware their ps provision was nixed in their new contract. Nothing more nothing less. Let’s go ahead and move on.

Big E 757
01-30-2020, 06:29 PM
Its not in the AS pilot contract yet we got a profit share. Delta would have too, maybe not as high as 16% but still would have gotten something.


There is no way Delta would have paid their pilots any profit sharing if it wasnít in the contract. We agreed not to fight the pension termination and agreed to two pay cuts...somewhere in there, we got a profit sharing agreement. Management was probably laughing at us at the time. Now, theyíve given all the non contract employees the same percentage to keep them from filling out union cards.

GuppyPuppy
01-31-2020, 02:05 PM
I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I didnít realize it had been removed from your new contract.

Before August of 2018 we didn't have a contract. Nothing.

The company took it away for all employees before we got our first contract. At the time they took it away, they gave everyone an 8% pay raise. They knew full well what they were doing. We tried to separate pilot profit sharing with that of the other groups, but the company wouldn't have any of it. That's why they slashed it before we could get our first contract.

It's just frustrating that a company that made over 3/4 of a billion dollars decided not to share any of it with their employees.

Glad you guys made out.

Gup

9mikemike
01-31-2020, 07:35 PM
worked out to 1133.00 per month extra take home for me for the year. 20yr captain

All Bizniz
02-01-2020, 11:14 PM
We agreed not to fight the pension termination and agreed to two pay cuts...somewhere in there, we got a profit sharing agreement. Management was [XprobablyX] DEFINITELY laughing at us at the time.

Fixed that for ya! :)

Packrat
02-02-2020, 10:25 AM
Yes, Offer Peanuts Regularly (OPR), is out of the kindness of the BMís cold dead heart.

The most amusing profit sharing check (no kidding, an actual CHECK) I saw was mailed to an SJC CSA: $0.00. She put it up in their crew room.

:rolleyes:

Bluetruth
02-03-2020, 06:05 AM
Before August of 2018 we didn't have a contract. Nothing.

The company took it away for all employees before we got our first contract. At the time they took it away, they gave everyone an 8% pay raise. They knew full well what they were doing. We tried to separate pilot profit sharing with that of the other groups, but the company wouldn't have any of it. That's why they slashed it before we could get our first contract.

It's just frustrating that a company that made over 3/4 of a billion dollars decided not to share any of it with their employees.

Glad you guys made out.

Gup

Before the contract the B6 pilots got guaranteed min. 5 percent profit sharing upfront along with all the other employees. The pilots lost this and instead got the 8 percent raise and 5 percent extra added to their 401k money the company contributes (which is now 15 percent, and higher/better than the other groups).

The OTHER employees kept the guaranteed 5 percent profit sharing payout but did not get the higher 401k contributions the pilots got (so they are in effect getting a 5 percent 401k match + a 5 percent 401k contribution through what you call "the cliff" so 15 percent 401k contribution for pilots vs. 10 percent for everyone else).

Also the company used this opportunity to roll the customary and scheduled pay review and raises for the other work groups into this calculation. So for example, the FAs got closer to a 18 percent raise spread out over 2 years (12 percent the first year and 5 percent the 2nd, not 8% like you say) to compensate them for the lower profit sharing formula. The thing is, via company policy they were due for that raise anyways because they had fallen way behind peers and would of gotten it anyway. The company though saw a opportunity to use the raise they were already due, to claim they were doing the FAs a favor and giving them the money guaranteed and upfront via the raise and taking away the uncertain and unguaranteed profit sharing.

So it was in the end just a shell game and sugar coated in hopes the other groups would not unionize. It partially did not work and the FAs followed the pilots into Unionization a year later. The rampers/gate agents have so far not, and they truly got cheated out of their regular raise by having to pay for their own raise via a profit sharing claw back concession.

What is Alaska pilot 401k matches and company contribution?

lowflying
02-03-2020, 06:41 AM
What is Alaska pilot 401k matches and company contribution?

Most of us get a 15.5 percent contribution with no matching requirements. Some of the people in the hybrid pension/DC plan get less.

disenchantMINT
02-03-2020, 07:27 AM
Before the contract the B6 pilots got guaranteed min. 5 percent profit sharing upfront along with all the other employees. The pilots lost this and instead got the 8 percent raise and 5 percent extra added to their 401k money the company contributes (which is now 15 percent, and higher/better than the other groups).

The OTHER employees kept the guaranteed 5 percent profit sharing payout but did not get the higher 401k contributions the pilots got (so they are in effect getting a 5 percent 401k match + a 5 percent 401k contribution through what you call "the cliff" so 15 percent 401k contribution for pilots vs. 10 percent for everyone else).

You're conflating profit sharing and retirement, and that is exactly what management hopes you'll do.

JB pilots have a 401k contribution that is on the low end of industry standard. In other words, it should be higher.

Other employees at JB have a decent 401k system for office workers and manual laborers nationwide (albeit less than many of their counterparts at other major airlines), aside from the conflation of profit sharing and retirement.

"The cliff" should not be present in JB pilots' 15% retirement because retirement has nothing to do with profit sharing. If JB management wanted to be honest, they would just rework the formula with the 5% missing from the front end so it doesn't appear to be a bait and switch.

Bluetruth
02-03-2020, 07:53 AM
You're conflating profit sharing and retirement, and that is exactly what management hopes you'll do.

Oh no I'm not, but you are right that is what management hopped we'd do. They made a big deal about how FAs got "the best 401k contribution in the industry! (10 percent)" when in fact half that contribution was made up of the FAs own profit sharing and when the true match of only 5 percent was exposed, it was shown to be substandard. They were called out on it, don't worry. Its interesting that the focus has shifted again and instead of trying to hide the retirement plus 5 percent as a 401k match/contribution, the words have changed to emphasize it is profit sharing and thus we actually got "profit sharing" this year.

They can call it whatever they want, but the math does not change and the negotiators know how to add.

Texasbound
02-03-2020, 03:22 PM
A lot of people do not realize this is what Delta tried to do to its pilots in TA1. They were going to cut their profit sharing formula to pay for a bigger raise. Luckily they knew how to add as well, and saw they were about to pay for their own raise.

full of luv
02-04-2020, 06:19 AM
A lot of people do not realize this is what Delta tried to do to its pilots in TA1. They were going to cut their profit sharing formula to pay for a bigger raise. Luckily they knew how to add as well, and saw they were about to pay for their own raise.

Yes.... #1 reason for pilots voting down TA1 at Delta was a halving of the profit sharing formula (which they had already done to the rest of the employees in "exchange" for raises)..... after TA2 left the profit sharing intact, lo and behold they had to resurrect the profit sharing back to match the pilots for all other employees soon after.

Texasbound
02-04-2020, 09:16 AM
Yes.... #1 reason for pilots voting down TA1 at Delta was a halving of the profit sharing formula (which they had already done to the rest of the employees in "exchange" for raises)..... after TA2 left the profit sharing intact, lo and behold they had to resurrect the profit sharing back to match the pilots for all other Non-Unionized employees soon after, to keep them from Unionizing.

Added a few important pieces there. I have seen the article praising Delta Management for "giving" that profit sharing to its employees. It should be seen for what it is... Union busting.