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View Full Version : C20 Update


gzsg
01-30-2020, 04:54 PM
Company Withdraws from Direct Negotiations

By now you will have heard that the company unilaterally withdrew from 1v1 negotiations and has asked to accelerate the timeline to request mediation from the National Mediation Board (NMB). This date was previously at the end of March. After a complete vetting of the situation, the MEC unanimously elected to accept the Company's offer to jointly apply for mediation.

You can read some more of the details HERE (http://send.alpa.org/link.cfm?r=Q9ej0k0KghaBcv0NN2AxEw~~&pe=SfcCkJdERIpAe6quah6L6jSfz9d0Hv7v1svB-scMvzUKSQ-netejG1CNSodSCrMREYBcbj2mTyt_YWgK1nyW7A~~&t=NUK1SlsBS_Ypc-VGAS2CAQ~~) in a Chairman's Letter, and directly from the Negotiating Committee (NC) HERE (http://send.alpa.org/link.cfm?r=Q9ej0k0KghaBcv0NN2AxEw~~&pe=XLYEwZzJ31teRCdw1EwPJA5IEO0boe1updON_oroj0a1GUo 8OmrVdhiMIJf3w13_Uc-pnUYJpmQh9DlDR0KEvw~~&t=NUK1SlsBS_Ypc-VGAS2CAQ~~). If you haven't already, please take the time to read both, as they contain some really good information and provide some context for what we're about to say.

As we mentioned in our previous update (available HERE (http://send.alpa.org/link.cfm?r=Q9ej0k0KghaBcv0NN2AxEw~~&pe=3pS8a1wfENITll9nacoEM8v2s5RlslrO8Wl8Mnp8h-tzpJWiu1kYT1Ct024WfHthuraR-vmlCv5k966JoUW3Gw~~&t=NUK1SlsBS_Ypc-VGAS2CAQ~~)), the NC had been making some progress with the company, in fits and starts, mostly on low hanging issues, or items that other carriers have had for years. Some of our long-standing issues, however, the company simply won't address, no matter how little they cost, and that has been a source of considerable frustration for the negotiators.

One of these items that is a great example is deadheading, where we rank nearly dead last in the industry (a place we occupy in a number of areas). Like similar areas, the company has dug their heels in on any area where improvements are readily observable by other employee groups (read "Flight Attendants" & "Gate Agents"). The company's manta here is clear: "if we give this to you, we have to give it to them". Before everyone starts hyperventilating, we dismiss this line of reasoning categorically and we are confident any mediator will as well. Whether the company thinks this is too expensive (it's not) or they think that it will give motivation for the FAs to organize (we don't care), it is completely immaterial since we don't negotiate for other employee groups. But that is their mind set, and it will apparently require a third party to explain that to them in case our words weren't enough.

The PWA we have is a product of decades of a "pay only" mentality. In fact, all the way back to C2k, there has been a willingness to accept "concessions for pay", and one of the phrases from the TA1 negotiators was a bold "unlocking the value of the PWA", which still makes us gag when we think about it. Comparatively speaking, the Company LIKES pay. It's cheap for them. They even like DC contributions, because that's really no different than pay, and they get to benefit from tax savings. Work rules & Scope, however, the company doesn't like so much, because that means they have to change their behavior, and that's something they don't like, for any number of reasons.

When we talk about "work rules" and "quality of life" MANY of those issues are linked to the Company changing the way they do business, even if it is just internally. One of the reasons they don't like to change their behavior, is in many cases, they can't or they don't know how. They don't want to change because that means figuring out (or allocating resources to) how to run things like a training scheduling department that can pick up the phone after 4pm (x-apple-data-detectors://6) (for one of the world's largest airlines).

We took a call from a pilot last month who had an improper simulator assignment (no proper notice, no travel day assigned, no consideration for the required PWA rest period, etc.). When the pilot attempted to call the training scheduler back, not only could he not get through (scheduler had gone for the day...and it was 4:30pm (x-apple-data-detectors://7)) but their voicemail box was full. The pilot was UNABLE to contact anyone with responsibility for the situation, even at the numbers listed for after hours support. It finally took us contacting the DTW CPO to intervene on the pilot's behalf.

Even when we got the pilot sorted out, no one had bothered to tell the poor instructor that it was an incorrect assignment and had been cancelled. The instructor called the pilot at 0600 to ask where he was (of course it was an A period). This hardly seems like a way to run one of the largest training organizations of its type in the world.

This seems like a small example, but it typifies the kind of "administrative malaise" that the Delta pilots find themselves dealing with on daily basis, in which they constantly have to step up to make the system run. This is a good example because despite numerous complains, the Company refuses to change their behavior on something as simple as running a Training Department like a one of the largest operations of its type in the world, that operates nearly 24/7 (x-apple-data-detectors://8)/365, and instead like some mom-n-pop commuter.

Another example is Advance Entitlements...a system that is clearly broken, stranding pilots in unwanted categories with absurd conversion windows that force pilots to put their lives on hold for up to a year with zero recourse. Even with this extreme flexibility, the Company still can't seem to staff the categories correctly.

The "we just don't know how to do it any other way" answer goes beyond managing these relatively small, but important, examples. Last year, the Company lost both Steve Dickson and Brendon Branon, two people who had significant working knowledge of the PWA and the history behind it. We may not have agreed with their positions, but at least they knew what they were talking about. Those that are left, or were brought in after, to put it simply...don't. The Negotiating Committee has often times found itself having to explain how the PWA works (or in some cases, doesn't) to the Company's side, THEN explain what needs changing, THEN explain our position. It's like trying to argue with yourself.

In some cases, the company refused to make any meaningful improvements in no or low-cost items. In some cases, the company offered up some gains in areas not readily observable by other employee groups.

"Negotiating in bad faith" is a legal term that comes with some very serious implications, one that we'd be very reticent to use unless the situation really warranted it. It is typically used when one side negotiates with a clear intention either not coming to an agreement or reaching an agreement they have no intention of honoring. We don't think that's the case here.

However, it appears that management came to the table with no real plan, no real goals, and what they did ask for was either the status quo ("current book"), clearly concessionary or made no sense in the context of the operation (I.E. "throwing darts"). In some cases, what was offered was worse than what some regional airlines have in their agreements (if you're sensing a trend, you'd be correct). What they did make clear is that any changes to the PWA that would force them to change the way they did things (scheduling, filling of vacancies, and most importantly, scope) would be a non-starter. In some cases, the company doesn't seem to know any other way to do things, despite our Negotiators offering up multiple solutions that addressed their issues (I.E. the "win- win").

The sad part is, despite all of this, the Negotiators were very close to closing out several other sections of the PWA. Had management decided to stick it out another few weeks, we could have gone to mediation with several more sections closed out.

So, here we are. Given the situation, we actually welcome mediation, as it appears that a third party will be necessary to goad the Company into bringing someone to the table with the requisite knowledge and ability to close out the deal.



Darren's Comments:

The Art of Bargaining in "less that good" Faith

I'm sure by now everyone has heard or read that Delta management has requested to file for mediation more than two months prior to the contractual date of required joint filing of March 31, 2020 (x-apple-data-detectors://9). The actual sequence of events that has led Delta management to this decision should serve as a "How to Guide" of bargaining if not in bad faith, which as Rich said, is a very picky technical term, but let's just call it "less than good".

It starts with the departure of Steve Dickson, SVP of Flight Ops and Brendon Branon, management's Managing Director of Employee & Labor Relations, who comprised the majority of the company's knowledge and expertise on collective bargaining. In my opinion, Management didn't know how to react to these departures and had no real game plan as to how to replace this loss of knowledge and further accentuated this error by waiting four months until after negotiations have begun to replace their labor expert. I'm certain that if you or I were to prepare for a check ride in this manner we would find ourselves out of a job.

Management then begins to negotiate small items, which to be fair, is consistent with normal negotiating strategy in which small items are agreed to with the hopes of building momentum as larger more contentious items are addressed. However, even with the smaller less contentious issues, Management continuously shows up unprepared, cancels scheduled negotiations and fails to return proposals in a timely or meaningful manner. What I find deeply disturbing about such behavior, is that this Management team appears to have the time and capacity to negotiate complex international agreements (such as LATAM) but fails to respond to our negotiations in the same manner. It appears to me that the Delta Management's statements on how important Delta Pilots are to the success of this airline is simply empty rhetoric.

Next, Jim Graham, publishes a letter that is largely revisionist history and insinuates that our Chairman has been less than truthful in his recent letter to the membership on January 16, 2020. Further, Management has made some rather ridiculous claims and has utilized some misleading economic assumptions to arrive at a concessionary position. All this mind you, while the Company announces a 6.2-Billion-dollar profit, to bring that number into context, that would equate to $707,762 dollars per hour of profit, 24/7 365 (x-apple-data-detectors://12)days a year. Making matters worse, Delta Management has only offered 28 million dollars of net contract improvements to date. To bring this proposal into perspective, if we divided the 28 Million dollars over 14, 500 pilots on an annual basis, that would essentially equate to a windfall of $5.29 cents per day to each pilot or as one representative aptly pointed out "Delta has essentially offered to buy each pilot a nice latte".

Perhaps Delta Management is out of touch with reality because they haven't engaged in normal negotiations for more than two decades. As a reminder, the last normal "full" non-concessionary contracts were negotiated in 1998 for Northwest Airlines and 2000 for Delta Air lines (TA2 was a "focused plus" strategy). Let me be perfectly clear, we are not in a concessionary negotiating environment and Delta Management should not anticipate a concessionary agreement. Professional Pilots are in high demand and short supply and Delta Management should not expect a discount. Furthermore, 23,000 Pilots will retire from American, Delta and United from January 1, 2018 to December 31, 2025 (x-apple-data-detectors://16) and that number does not factor in Southwest, UPS, FedEx or any other carriers regional or otherwise. Simply stated, if we don't have an industry leading contract, we won't attract the future talent we will need to be competitive.

Finally, many contractual improvements we are seeking were standard industry benefits contained in previous Northwest and Delta contracts when profits ranged between 200 to 500 Million dollars. Now, we post profits that are more than 10 times those amounts and return more than 3 Billion dollars a year back to shareholders and yet those fundamental contract improvements have been considered too costly by Management. For instance, we are last in vacation value amongst our peers and we lag behind the industry leader by a value of 80 hrs. Management's offer for vacation improvement was so pathetic that it left us, yes you guessed it, in last place in the industry.

In closing, our Pilot Group is the long-term stakeholder in this Company and we are better prepared for negotiations.



2019 Delta Air Lines Corporate Results

To summarize, the Company made a boatload of coin (a technical term). It was a veritable cornucopia of cash. A virtual horn of plenty. Maybe the sky wasn't raining cash, but it certainly was a heavy drizzle.

Delta reported $6.2 billion pre-tax income for the fiscal year 2019 on $47 billion in revenue. Earnings per share came in 31% higher than last year at $7.30. There was $4.2 billion in free cashflow, even after $4.5 billion invested back into the airline, plus Delta returned $3.0 billion to shareholders

You can more on the topic HERE (http://send.alpa.org/link.cfm?r=Q9ej0k0KghaBcv0NN2AxEw~~&pe=hw04VSnbrWuQptTP0ULBFXAx11ev-DFL3cBm4EHWEEu7GaMbjurrAQ9hSb4DvtsCijerzfOA2fKJkty zqP5vPg~~&t=NUK1SlsBS_Ypc-VGAS2CAQ~~).



Special MEC Meeting(s) – Atlanta January 14-16, 2020..

The MEC met in special session on February 14 (x-apple-data-detectors://26)th (x-apple-data-detectors://26)-16 (x-apple-data-detectors://26)th (x-apple-data-detectors://26) at the MEC Offices in Atlanta. Practically the entire meeting was in closed or executive session to discuss all of the above, review negotiating direction and to review and approve the strategic planning and communications. A comprehensive review of the final positions from the Negotiators was received. The MEC was unanimous in their support of the Negotiating Committee and the direction they have been given.



Special MEC Meeting(s) – Atlanta January 13th, 2020

As part of the normal election cycle in the fall, Councils 54 (SEA), 66 (NYC) and 108 (CVG) held the elections for the Representatives. Some issues surfaced in the Council 66 election, and there was an appearance of some attempts at "tinkering", specifically the rights of a member's ability to express themselves.

There were some rather interesting interpretations of this chain of events, especially on, as always, on social media (little 's', little 'm'). A few folks reached out to us for the real scoop, which we always happy to provide.

"Why are you guys fussing with this stuff when we have ALL this other stuff going on??"

A most excellent question. The problem stems from the Constitution & Bylaws. It's pretty super serious stuff, especially when you have the Department of Labor overseeing things. If someone makes a complaint, especially along the lines of a restriction on speech during elections, you pretty much have to stop whatever else you're doing and address it, which is what the MEC did. We always enjoy having the Council of Frowny Attorneys bring their clouds to an already rainy day.



Rich's Comments: I'm going to blatantly steal what the Chairman of Council 66 said on the matter: "I urge all New York pilots to use caution when reading inflammatory posts on social media, especially when posted by a few individuals with questionable intentions. Please consider verifying these inflammatory posts with other reliable sources of information."

Tom is right on the mark here, but this goes not just for this kind of thing, but a lot of other items as well. We're going to be entering a period increased activity with negotiations. There's going to be "lots of talk", and it's important to understand that most Reps do not participate in social media for any number of reasons (not the least of which is getting "blamed for leaks" or getting sidetracked by cat videos when they should really be writing council updates).

It's no secret that social media can run amok. Back in the day, we used to have a centralized forum where everyone could go to interact with the committee folks under a relatively closed environment, and there was more interaction to damp the wild swings. The MEC at the time thought it was a waste of resources and a pain to manage, so they elected to shut down the forums (a move I strongly opposed, and I think I even quoted Star Wars "the more you tighten your grip, the more star systems will slip through your fingers"...well, that turned out to be quite prophetic.).

Back to the point: There are a lot of people who may have an agenda that is not immediately apparent. That's not always a terrible thing, and we are all pre-disposed to view things from our own enlightened self-interest. But some are naturally going to be pressing their points of view, and heck, may even coordinate with like-minded folks to give the impression of "a thing". They might even have some access to a spreadsheet and an F1 key to put some graphics to their argument. This may put some "spin" on their narrative, and they might not even be aware they're doing it. All we ask is that you use some critical thought and remember, all it takes is a phone call, email or text message to reach out to one of us to get the actual story.



Eric's Comments:

I would like to address some of the false narratives that were tossed around by the events of last week. It was said that there was a faction of the MEC that was going to recall the MEC Chairman. That is simply not true. Also, there is dysfunction in the leadership and the MEC is divided. Well, frankly I don't see it. In fact, what I do see is a MEC that for almost a year now has been setting direction unanimously. I also see a knowledgeable negotiating team that is methodical, organized and extremely prepared for Section 6. I see a Communication Committee doing an excellent job of keeping our pilots informed and up to date. I see a Scheduling Committee doing an unprecedented job keeping the company adhering to the PWA and recovering pay owed to our pilots. I see an administration that is proactive, not reactive, to the company's daily assault on our quality of life. I could go on and on, but this is an administration that is doing an exceptional job working on the behalf of the Delta Pilots.



Vacation Tips

We've received numerous complaints regarding the vacation day distribution for the 2020-21 Vacation year (including no small amount of incredulity as to the "leap year" rational). We did check with Contract Administration, and they did say the distribution was "in compliance". This kind of like going to the 24 hour Mi-T-Mart and finding it closed. The sign says it IS open 24 hours, just not all in a row. While "technically correct", it's irritating none the less.

If you did not get your desired vacation period, there are some other options still available to you to get the time off you desire:


Vacation Move up - After the quinary vacations are awarded, a pilot may bid to change an awarded vacation period through the vacation move-up bidding process in iCrew. Projected vacation periods will be available for move up before 0800E on the 25th day of the month that is two months prior to the bid period of the vacation. Vacation move-up requests are made through iCrew and available weeks are published in Deltanet under the Crew Resources & Scheduling page under "Pilot Vacation & Known Leaves of Absence".

Bids close at 0800E on the 1st of each month and awards are posted before 1800E on the 4th of each month.



More information on this topic can be found on page 93 of the Scheduling Reference Handbook.


Vacation Trade – If you can find a willing pilot, you can elect to trade vacation weeks. Both pilots must submit their request to the Vacations section of Crew Resources at 404-715-1096 (tel:404-715-1096)/800-325-2719.
Vacation Slide – If you want to move your vacation period inside a bid period to a different spot inside the same bid period, you can utilize the "vacation slide" option during monthly bidding to attempt to move the days to where you'd like. There are a number of caveats to this process, too numerous to list here, but you can read all about it in the PBS Reference Handbook, starting on page 82. The PBS Reference Handbook is available HERE (http://send.alpa.org/link.cfm?r=Q9ej0k0KghaBcv0NN2AxEw~~&pe=cVr8TVKcOLmUQ9hdAJY5SufqAlEbBz7Dx0p5rlwk9c18bzk 0aqDxcHTeo9YUSE1WCgj499Wb5MW4-EUAaoMRUA~~&t=NUK1SlsBS_Ypc-VGAS2CAQ~~).
Individual Vacation Days (IVDs) – If you have remaining vacation days in a vacation period in a future bid period that has not been included in a bid period published in DBMS, you may use up to 4 IVD days (total) on up to two separate occurrences since the beginning of the vacation year. If your category "won" the sick leave contest, this number may be higher.

IVDs work almost exactly the same as APDs, including reserves available requirements and "blackout dates". You "pull days" off a future vacation and use them essentially as APDs to drop trips, except that you will be credited for each vacation day you drop as vacation (IE 3:45 (x-apple-data-detectors://29) or 3:30 (x-apple-data-detectors://30)). Drop one IVD on any day of a rotation, and the entire rotation will drop. They are a very powerful tool if you wish to drop flying.


Pay Back Days (PB) – If you have any, pay back days can also be used. Details on their use can be found in the Scheduling Reference Handbook starting on page 33.
Authorized Personal Drop (APD) – You get one per year (based on your employment date). Only 25% of the reserves required must be available (subject to certain blackout dates).


Personal Drop (PD) – You have an unlimited number of personal drops available, but reserves must be sufficient.

NOTE: Any IVD/APD/PD requests that cannot be fulfilled after the first run will place the trip into open flying as a "QPD" request.

Pay Recovery for IVD/APD/PD requests (Section 23.I.18): A pilot may, at his request, recover pay and credit for rotations and reserve on-call days dropped pursuant to a PD, QPD, IVD, or APD, by utilizing vacation bank time. You must contact Crew Scheduling to make this request.

In other words, you can use the IVD system to move future unused vacation days to drop a trip, and you can use Section 23.I.18 to move future unused vacation credit to a IVD/APD/PD.

READ THIS (potential gotchas!): If you pull off vacation days by utilizing IVDs, note that both the PAY and DAY OFF are removed from the vacation period you select, and the credit assigned to the day(s) you drop it on will be the same as the vacation you took it from.

If you utilize 23.I.18 to "fill" an IVD/APD/PD award with pay from your vacation bank, ONLY THE PAY moves. You will be left with an "empty" vacation day(s) in its original location that will have zero pay, but will still act as a vacation day, in that it "blocks" any other activity.

There are some other rules that go with IVDs/APDs/PDs, such as some MSL requirements for widebody categories. PWA Section 23.I covers all the permutations, and Section 7.I discusses the number of IVDs days/events available.


Pilot to Pilot Swap Board – Pilots may list their rotations for pickup on the Pilot-to-Pilot swap board. This is an independent system from the open time list, and pick-ups from this list is not subject to the ALV+15 white slip pickup limit, so your drop requests may garner more interest.

You can request a IVD/APD/PD for a rotation as well as post it on the P-t-P Swap Board simultaneously. This gives the rotation maximum exposure to facilitate dropping the rotation. If it is not dropped during the first PCS run after the request, the rotation will appear on both the Open Board (as a 'Q' trip) and the P-t-P Swap Board. If dropped by one method or the other, the trip will disappear automatically from the other venue.

If you weren't awarded your desired vacation, we hope these tools allow you to get the time off you desire.


gzsg
01-30-2020, 05:16 PM
The bottom line is we need to win together.

Our position is more than affordable, more than fair and long, long overdue.

The Delta pilots billions and billions in concessions was the major force of the success Delta enjoys today.

Time to do the right thing.

DALMD88FO
01-31-2020, 03:25 AM
Bottom line is to not expect a contract until the FA card drive, and quite possible a union vote, is completed.


sailingfun
01-31-2020, 03:30 AM
Bottom line is to not expect a contract until the FA card drive, and quite possible a union vote, is completed.

Another drive will start as soon as that one ends. It’s never ending..

DALMD88FO
01-31-2020, 03:41 AM
Another drive will start as soon as that one ends. It’s never ending..
Unless it's a different union, they have to wait two years. At least that is what it used to be.

sailingfun
01-31-2020, 04:42 AM
Unless it's a different union, they have to wait two years. At least that is what it used to be.
They rotate the unions.

DALMD88FO
01-31-2020, 04:48 AM
They rotate the unions.
tell you the truth, I wish they would just pull the trigger and vote one in. It would take care of the excuse that they would have to give it to the FA’s.

RAH RAH REE
01-31-2020, 04:57 AM
As Rich said in the C20 update: we don’t care. FAs are not our equals and we do not negotiate for every employee group. Using the companies “if you give it to them....” tag line we should be getting crew meals more often, we should get our luggage paid for, and a uniform allowance.

Hopefully this is what they told the company or started asking for these items to throw it back in their face.

Han Solo
01-31-2020, 05:34 AM
Great update.

GliderCFI
01-31-2020, 05:36 AM
It appears the guy who posted the resolution to eliminate retirement age in C20 is already going to have 41 years of service at current retirement date. How much more do you need? Get a hobby.

Anyone going to the meeting who can swing a proxy?

crewdawg
01-31-2020, 06:59 AM
It appears the guy who posted the resolution to eliminate retirement age in C20 is already going to have 41 years of service at current retirement date. How much more do you need? Get a hobby.

Anyone going to the meeting who can swing a proxy?

He will have spent 27 of those 41 years as a WB Capt...

Herkflyr
01-31-2020, 07:01 AM
He will have spent 27 of those 41 years as a WB Capt...And no doubt griping the past year or so how "unfair" Age 65 is.

flyallnite
01-31-2020, 08:08 AM
Excellent update. This should be pinned to the top of the forum to refer to when things go off in the weeds.

TED74
01-31-2020, 08:15 AM
Conventional wisdom is that Delta benefits by having one or more workgroups non-unionized. It seems to me that the pilot group pays the price. Worst in vacation, worst in deadhead, worst in crew meals, no holiday pay, no alcohol on a TPAC DH, etc... because they'd have to give it to someone who doesn't have a negotiating body?

Personally, I think flight attendants who don't want to be unionized in today's managerial climate are nuts and short-sighted... but that's been the opinion I'll offer only when asked. Now I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't bolster the organizing campaign.

RAH RAH REE
01-31-2020, 10:15 AM
The union should just go into negotiations and say either agree to all this or we will get the FAs unionized by the end of the summer.

SideSticker
01-31-2020, 10:25 AM
And no doubt griping the past year or so how "unfair" Age 65 is.
And probably broke cause he never learned how to manage his money.

Jaww
01-31-2020, 10:36 AM
And probably broke cause he never learned how to manage his money.

That second wife in Asia certainly isn’t going to get a job.

GliderCFI
01-31-2020, 10:56 AM
That second wife in Asia certainly isn’t going to get a job.

Well, not when she's spent all his money on Gucci and Prada coronavirus masks.

DALFA
01-31-2020, 01:21 PM
I'm glad that at least some of you are starting to see how it does benefit your group if FAs do unionize.

Let us do our own negotiating so that your group can just worry about negotiating for your group only. As others have said, there are many areas the company won't move on because they're too visible and would anger the FA group into unionizing. So just help us unionize and throw that excuse out the window. There's many areas that we'd actually be able to work on together and in negotiations piggyback off of each other to lift the bar. It's common practice at other airlines.

Meow1215
01-31-2020, 04:17 PM
I'm glad that at least some of you are starting to see how it does benefit your group if FAs do unionize.

Let us do our own negotiating so that your group can just worry about negotiating for your group only. As others have said, there are many areas the company won't move on because they're too visible and would anger the FA group into unionizing. So just help us unionize and throw that excuse out the window. There's many areas that we'd actually be able to work on together and in negotiations piggyback off of each other to lift the bar. It's common practice at other airlines.

Given AFA leadership, there is not allot of benefit in any pilot group helping AFA organize at any company.

DALFA
01-31-2020, 05:25 PM
Given AFA leadership, there is not allot of benefit in any pilot group helping AFA organize at any company.

You mean the same AFA leadership that already works with ALPA on just about every issue in Washington DC? And also works with ALPA locals at airlines that have both ALPA and AFA representation in place?

NavyFlyer
01-31-2020, 08:09 PM
I'm glad that at least some of you are starting to see how it does benefit your group if FAs do unionize.



Let us do our own negotiating so that your group can just worry about negotiating for your group only. As others have said, there are many areas the company won't move on because they're too visible and would anger the FA group into unionizing. So just help us unionize and throw that excuse out the window. There's many areas that we'd actually be able to work on together and in negotiations piggyback off of each other to lift the bar. It's common practice at other airlines.



Sorry—I won’t help your effort to unionize.

Personally, I would WANT to be unionized. But your average FA who will have this job 5-6 years doesn’t want to pay into it. And it’s not my job to convince them otherwise.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DALFA
01-31-2020, 09:59 PM
Sorry—I won’t help your effort to unionize.

Personally, I would WANT to be unionized. But your average FA who will have this job 5-6 years doesn’t want to pay into it. And it’s not my job to convince them otherwise.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You think the average FA sticks around for 5-6 years? Where? Over 85% of those hired in 2015 are still here. Over 75% hired in 2011 are still here. If the average only stayed 5-6 years you wouldn’t need 30+ years of seniority to hold international trips out of Atlanta.

sailingfun
02-01-2020, 02:49 AM
You mean the same AFA leadership that already works with ALPA on just about every issue in Washington DC? And also works with ALPA locals at airlines that have both ALPA and AFA representation in place?

AFA lends lip service to issues. It takes money in DC to make things happen. On the money side they fall sadly short.

Han Solo
02-01-2020, 05:14 AM
You mean the same AFA leadership that already works with ALPA on just about every issue in Washington DC? And also works with ALPA locals at airlines that have both ALPA and AFA representation in place?

AFA lends lip service to issues. It takes money in DC to make things happen. On the money side they fall sadly short.

It takes BIG money. I appreciate the efforts put forth in DC, but when it comes to significant issues I suspect we are drowned out by the real money.

DALFA
02-01-2020, 08:43 AM
AFA lends lip service to issues. It takes money in DC to make things happen. On the money side they fall sadly short.

Of course the more money you have the better off you are. Having said that, AFA actually does quite well with the resources they do have. Ask ALPA Govt Affairs if they think AFA is just lip service or not.

Banzai
02-01-2020, 03:30 PM
Sorry—I won’t help your effort to unionize.

Personally, I would WANT to be unionized. But your average FA who will have this job 5-6 years doesn’t want to pay into it. And it’s not my job to convince them otherwise.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why is “only” working a job 5-6 years somehow disqualifying for having a union?

DALFA
02-01-2020, 05:26 PM
Why is “only” working a job 5-6 years somehow disqualifying for having a union?

I think what he/she meant is that all those newly hired are against it because they're only going to stick around for a short bit and they don't care. The reality is that AFA has the highest support among flight attendants hired after bankruptcy. The biggest pushback is from the group hired in the 70s/80s that still thinks this is a mom & pop operation and that we're all just a big happy family. It's quite nauseous to listen to at times...

Meow1215
02-01-2020, 06:07 PM
You mean the same AFA leadership that already works with ALPA on just about every issue in Washington DC? And also works with ALPA locals at airlines that have both ALPA and AFA representation in place?

Yep, they are really great at nodding their head and smiling. Sarah does a pretty good job taking credit for things that she didn’t really I suppose.

DALFA
02-01-2020, 06:11 PM
Yep, they are really great at nodding their head and smiling. Sarah does a pretty good job taking credit for things that she didn’t really I suppose.
I don't really care what she takes credit for, but what I know is that my congressman (a republican) said that she's quite influential in DC. I met him a few months ago at a meet & greet and it came up. So for a Republican lawmaker to make those kinds of comments tells me that AFA is pulling more than it's share.

Sounds to me like it's more of a personal problem you have with her...

Funk
02-01-2020, 08:45 PM
I don't really care what she takes credit for, but what I know is that my congressman (a republican) said that she's quite influential in DC. I met him a few months ago at a meet & greet and it came up. So for a Republican lawmaker to make those kinds of comments tells me that AFA is pulling more than it's share.

Sounds to me like it's more of a personal problem you have with her...

I’d expect ANY member of Congress to tell you that they were impressed by (pick your industry advocate). That’s what any good politician will do.

Meow1215
02-01-2020, 09:03 PM
I don't really care what she takes credit for, but what I know is that my congressman (a republican) said that she's quite influential in DC. I met him a few months ago at a meet & greet and it came up. So for a Republican lawmaker to make those kinds of comments tells me that AFA is pulling more than it's share.

Sounds to me like it's more of a personal problem you have with her...

History is filled with people who are “quite influential”, it doesn’t mean they were good leaders or good people. A former ruler of Germany is a great example, that individual was even named Time magazine Person of the Year. Influential? Absolutely. Not that I am comparing the two, just to illustrate that the “Republican” you refer to making that statement is not a valid credential for work actually being done.

Does AFA make statements and actions that align with the Association? Sure, sometimes. But AFA leadership, specifically Ms. Nelson hold some pretty radical viewpoints that very much conflict with my paycheck and QOL factors. So yes, there is issues there from a personal and very much a professional standpoint.

DALFA
02-01-2020, 10:12 PM
History is filled with people who are “quite influential”, it doesn’t mean they were good leaders or good people. A former ruler of Germany is a great example, that individual was even named Time magazine Person of the Year. Influential? Absolutely. Not that I am comparing the two, just to illustrate that the “Republican” you refer to making that statement is not a valid credential for work actually being done.

Does AFA make statements and actions that align with the Association? Sure, sometimes. But AFA leadership, specifically Ms. Nelson hold some pretty radical viewpoints that very much conflict with my paycheck and QOL factors. So yes, there is issues there from a personal and very much a professional standpoint.

What she supports as an individual isn't much of my business as long as it doesn't spill over into "union time". I certainly don't agree with her political views but again...that's her individual beliefs. What I do know is that she has been very beneficial for the flight attendants she represents and she was re-elected a few months ago unanimously by the AFA Board of Directors.

I understand that ALPA is the only AFL-CIO affiliated union that has more registered Republicans than Democrats. As a result of this a majority of ALPA members support a party in congress that would make unions illegal tomorrow if it could as well as making labor relations much more anti-worker with the NMB. It's your choice.

Now...we can keep talking about how the President of AFA is a "progressive" or we can talk about what AFA & ALPA work on together to advance both of our careers and how effective AFA is. Seems to me like there's always some type of excuse with a specific demographic of Delta pilots that would rather be stuck with needles in their eyes rather than support a union for flight attendants.

ItnStln
02-03-2020, 12:24 PM
I understand that ALPA is the only AFL-CIO affiliated union that has more registered Republicans than Democrats.
Source?
filler

igotgummed
02-09-2020, 01:58 AM
So back to the main topic......which is of course pilots and not FAs.........what a SOLID update!!!!!

theUpsideDown
02-09-2020, 09:59 AM
.

I understand that ALPA is the only AFL-CIO affiliated union that has more registered Republicans than Democrats. As a result of this a majority of ALPA members support a party in congress that would make unions illegal tomorrow if it could as well as making labor relations much more anti-worker with the NMB. It's your choice.
s.
Im not sure what you meant to say, but heres the thing kiddo. If republicans got rid of unions they wouldnt ALSO make the NMB harder to work with....because thered be no unions. If you mean in lieu of, this has been bandied about for a long time but the RLA and its NMB keep pilots working when the contract should be dead. You wanna see some chaos put pilots under the NRLA and they days of working on a stalled contract are over.

You dont have a solid understanding of the process or what these pilots are complaining about with regard to the AFA. I dont know what youre doing on this web board but if you want to get into these slap fights with bad info as a regular occurence youre going to lose a lot of credibility.

DALFA
02-09-2020, 07:38 PM
Im not sure what you meant to say, but heres the thing kiddo. If republicans got rid of unions they wouldnt ALSO make the NMB harder to work with....because thered be no unions. If you mean in lieu of, this has been bandied about for a long time but the RLA and its NMB keep pilots working when the contract should be dead. You wanna see some chaos put pilots under the NRLA and they days of working on a stalled contract are over.

You dont have a solid understanding of the process or what these pilots are complaining about with regard to the AFA. I dont know what youre doing on this web board but if you want to get into these slap fights with bad info as a regular occurence youre going to lose a lot of credibility.

First off, don’t call me kiddo. I was out in the workforce when you probably still had diapers on. Second off, you can deflect all you want but the reason the industry as a whole isn’t recovered from all the rounds of bankruptcies is because the NMB has basically said they won’t release any of the major airlines to strike. You can keep deflecting all you want but voting for your friend Mitch and Johnny did absolutely nothing to make it a better negotiating environment. Management is now free to drag on negotiations for years, and you won’t see a single penny extra, because the NMB is as anti-worker as they come.

theUpsideDown
02-10-2020, 05:48 AM
First off, don’t call me kiddo. I was out in the workforce when you probably still had diapers on. Second off, you can deflect all you want but the reason the industry as a whole isn’t recovered from all the rounds of bankruptcies is because the NMB has basically said they won’t release any of the major airlines to strike. You can keep deflecting all you want but voting for your friend Mitch and Johnny did absolutely nothing to make it a better negotiating environment. Management is now free to drag on negotiations for years, and you won’t see a single penny extra, because the NMB is as anti-worker as they come.
My guess would be you were bouncing around in whatever unnammed limbo workforce while my pilot group got authorization for a strike in the last republican cycle who hated unionized workers. That was after the company had dragged negotiations out. Speaking as a guy who has met an nmb member and volunteered doing heavy lifting for years while you hadnt heard of an organizing drive yet, i have some appreciation for your zeal and why ive held off calling you out in public the last few times you were factually wrong or out of line. Youve gone a little too far and im pretty sure judging from your bizarre non-sequitor reply you arent even keeping track of which user name is replying to you.

Cut the crap, guys on here can disagree with you and still have valid opinions. People vote for a variety of reasons which are at times deeply personal and conflict with their unions goals.

For all the hatred of the NMB the truth is they rarely let the company officers get away with murder doesnt matter who appointed the 3rd member, and the "deep state" workers in the NMB whove kept things together for decades are very helpful to both sides. The company doesnt get to railroad the union or visa versa, though, theres some body checking that wont get called. In the RLA its on the union to be reasonable, there is exactly zero patience for fist pounding on the table or the chest. Be reasonable and play inside the rules and youll get released. As for the nonsense, no one that matters cares.

​​​​​​Nor should they.

sailingfun
02-10-2020, 10:21 AM
My guess would be you were bouncing around in whatever unnammed limbo workforce while my pilot group got authorization for a strike in the last republican cycle who hated unionized workers. That was after the company had dragged negotiations out. Speaking as a guy who has met an nmb member and volunteered doing heavy lifting for years while you hadnt heard of an organizing drive yet, i have some appreciation for your zeal and why ive held off calling you out in public the last few times you were factually wrong or out of line. Youve gone a little too far and im pretty sure judging from your bizarre non-sequitor reply you arent even keeping track of which user name is replying to you.

Cut the crap, guys on here can disagree with you and still have valid opinions. People vote for a variety of reasons which are at times deeply personal and conflict with their unions goals.

For all the hatred of the NMB the truth is they rarely let the company officers get away with murder doesnt matter who appointed the 3rd member, and the "deep state" workers in the NMB whove kept things together for decades are very helpful to both sides. The company doesnt get to railroad the union or visa versa, though, theres some body checking that wont get called. In the RLA its on the union to be reasonable, there is exactly zero patience for fist pounding on the table or the chest. Be reasonable and play inside the rules and youll get released. As for the nonsense, no one that matters cares.

​​​​​​Nor should they.

Released when? Did you see what Frontier was asking for and they could not get released. It was a very modest ask.

DALFA
02-10-2020, 11:10 AM
My guess would be you were bouncing around in whatever unnammed limbo workforce while my pilot group got authorization for a strike in the last republican cycle who hated unionized workers. That was after the company had dragged negotiations out. Speaking as a guy who has met an nmb member and volunteered doing heavy lifting for years while you hadnt heard of an organizing drive yet, i have some appreciation for your zeal and why ive held off calling you out in public the last few times you were factually wrong or out of line. Youve gone a little too far and im pretty sure judging from your bizarre non-sequitor reply you arent even keeping track of which user name is replying to you.

Cut the crap, guys on here can disagree with you and still have valid opinions. People vote for a variety of reasons which are at times deeply personal and conflict with their unions goals.

For all the hatred of the NMB the truth is they rarely let the company officers get away with murder doesnt matter who appointed the 3rd member, and the "deep state" workers in the NMB whove kept things together for decades are very helpful to both sides. The company doesnt get to railroad the union or visa versa, though, theres some body checking that wont get called. In the RLA its on the union to be reasonable, there is exactly zero patience for fist pounding on the table or the chest. Be reasonable and play inside the rules and youll get released. As for the nonsense, no one that matters cares.

​​​​​​Nor should they.

Delta pilots have never been released into a cooling off period. Never.

It took several years beyond the amendable date of the contract and failed mediation sessions for Spirit pilots to get released about 10 years ago. That's for a workforce that's 1/10th that of Delta pilots.

RonRicco
02-10-2020, 11:26 AM
Delta pilots have never been released into a cooling off period. Never.

It took several years beyond the amendable date of the contract and failed mediation sessions for Spirit pilots to get released about 10 years ago. That's for a workforce that's 1/10th that of Delta pilots.

uhhhhhhh. Are you sure about that? As I recall we were within 3 days back in 2001.

DALFA
02-10-2020, 12:53 PM
uhhhhhhh. Are you sure about that? As I recall we were within 3 days back in 2001.

Yes, 100%. That process was under the US Bankruptcy court and not the NMB.

A few months later the Northwest flight attendants were in the same boat as Delta pilots and a District court blocked the flight attendants from striking. The decision was then confirmed by the Circuit court unanimously at the same time ALPA was trying to do the same at Comair with pilots.

So to reiterate, the NMB has never released Delta pilots into a cooling off period. Had Delta pilots gone on strike they would have been ordered back to work by the same District court that prevented Northwest flight attendants from going on strike.

RonRicco
02-10-2020, 01:36 PM
Yes, 100%. That process was under the US Bankruptcy court and not the NMB.

A few months later the Northwest flight attendants were in the same boat as Delta pilots and a District court blocked the flight attendants from striking. The decision was then confirmed by the Circuit court unanimously at the same time ALPA was trying to do the same at Comair with pilots.

So to reiterate, the NMB has never released Delta pilots into a cooling off period. Had Delta pilots gone on strike they would have been ordered back to work by the same District court that prevented Northwest flight attendants from going on strike.



https://aviationweek.com/delta-pilots-reject-arbitration-parties-enter-cooling-period

This was in C2K and noting to do with bankruptcy. We were basically 3 days from a PEB as I mentioned above when we reached a TA with Delta.

DALFA
02-10-2020, 01:51 PM
https://aviationweek.com/delta-pilots-reject-arbitration-parties-enter-cooling-period

This was in C2K and noting to do with bankruptcy. We were basically 3 days from a PEB as I mentioned above when we reached a TA with Delta.

Gotcha. I stand corrected on that stement.

Having said that, at the time President Bush said he would order the NWA mechanics back to work at the end of their 30 day cooling period (going on at the same time as C2K negotiations) and everyone expected Bush to do the same with Delta pilots.

sailingfun
02-10-2020, 02:01 PM
Yes, 100%. That process was under the US Bankruptcy court and not the NMB.

A few months later the Northwest flight attendants were in the same boat as Delta pilots and a District court blocked the flight attendants from striking. The decision was then confirmed by the Circuit court unanimously at the same time ALPA was trying to do the same at Comair with pilots.

So to reiterate, the NMB has never released Delta pilots into a cooling off period. Had Delta pilots gone on strike they would have been ordered back to work by the same District court that prevented Northwest flight attendants from going on strike.

We were not even discussing bankruptcy at that point. Your memory is very flawed.

theUpsideDown
02-10-2020, 02:30 PM
Delta pilots have never been released into a cooling off period. Never.

It took several years beyond the amendable date of the contract and failed mediation sessions for Spirit pilots to get released about 10 years ago. That's for a workforce that's 1/10th that of Delta pilots.
Again previous shop, which you should read closer.

DALMD88FO
02-10-2020, 02:31 PM
Delta pilots have never been released into a cooling off period. Never.

It took several years beyond the amendable date of the contract and failed mediation sessions for Spirit pilots to get released about 10 years ago. That's for a workforce that's 1/10th that of Delta pilots.

You do realize that we also have former NWA pilots and that little star on their ALPA pin means they went out on strike.

theUpsideDown
02-10-2020, 02:32 PM
Released when? Did you see what Frontier was asking for and they could not get released. It was a very modest ask.
During the GW administration. '05

I dont know the specifics of Frontier and i wasnt there.

sailingfun
02-11-2020, 03:41 AM
During the GW administration. '05

I dont know the specifics of Frontier and i wasnt there.

They signed the new contract last year.

sailingfun
02-11-2020, 03:57 AM
uhhhhhhh. Are you sure about that? As I recall we were within 3 days back in 2001.

We were actually in the cooling off period. It should be noted however that management did not oppose the release after George Bush publicly stated there would be no airline strikes on his watch. The negotiating climate had changed dramatically against us with losses at Delta mounting. We essentially caved to managements last offer prior to release. We had been 1.7 billion apart.

theUpsideDown
02-11-2020, 04:37 AM
They signed the new contract last year.
*Shrug* not sure what that has to do with my story except perhaps that there was a similar occurence during a republican administration, futher proving my point.

theUpsideDown
02-11-2020, 04:40 AM
We were actually in the cooling off period. It should be noted however that management did not oppose the release after George Bush publicly stated there would be no airline strikes on his watch. The negotiating climate had changed dramatically against us with losses at Delta mounting. We essentially caved to managements last offer prior to release. We had been 1.7 billion apart.
GW doesnt have that control and if so how did mesaba get released in 05. If management hadnt completely boned the dog we would have walked out rather than management settling in 3 days with another couple for lawyer language. Politicians sometimes just say things to get the base excited,

sailingfun
02-11-2020, 04:52 AM
GW doesnt have that control and if so how did mesaba get released in 05. If management hadnt completely boned the dog we would have walked out rather than management settling in 3 days with another couple for lawyer language. Politicians sometimes just say things to get the base excited, and nothing makes the republican base happier than "screw unions!" while foaming at the mouth

No one cared about Mesaba. I should have said major airlines. The president can appoint a PEB that will be given 60 days to look at each sides positions. At the end of the 60 days the PEB can allow a strike or recommend that a contract be imposed by Congress.

“The President may create an emergency board to investigate and report on a dispute over the terms of a collective bargaining agreement. Under the Railway Labor Act, the President may exercise his discretion to create an emergency board when the labor dispute threatens “substantially to interrupt interstate commerce to a degree such as to deprive any section of the country of essential transportation service.”

News report as the end of the 30 day cooling off approached.
“The airline did not explicitly ask for President Bush's intervention, but it certainly raised the hope that he would block a strike for at least 60 days, as he can do under airline labor law, while a "presidential emergency board," or PEB, considers the dispute.
The statement quotes a statement from the president that he would "take the NECESSARY STEPS to prevent major airline strikes from happening this year, It's important for our economy, but more important, it's important for the hardworking people of America, to make sure air service is not disrupted."

Keep in mind that George Bush was much more union friendly than out current president.

House of Usher
02-11-2020, 05:03 AM
Gotcha. I stand corrected on that stement.

Having said that, at the time President Bush said he would order the NWA mechanics back to work at the end of their 30 day cooling period (going on at the same time as C2K negotiations) and everyone expected Bush to do the same with Delta pilots.


Um, the NWA mechanics did strike in 2005. It was a disaster for them, but strike they did.

sailingfun
02-11-2020, 05:11 AM
Um, the NWA mechanics did strike in 2005. It was a disaster for them, but strike they did.

You need to provide context for why a strike was allowed. NWA management specifically requested access to self help and that there be no government intervention to prevent self help from either side. Technically the mechanics were locked out. Their only real hope was support from the pilots which did not happen.

Northwest made it clear it would declare a lockout if the mechanics union decided not to strike when a 30-day “cooling-off” period expired at midnight Friday. The company had boasted of having prepared for the past 18 months to launch a strikebreaking operation and had spent over $100 million to hire and house “replacement” mechanics and flight attendants. The airline lined up 1,200 nonunion mechanics, plus 400 vendor workers and 300 managers for a total strikebreaking force of 1,900.

BobZ
02-11-2020, 05:12 AM
Keep in mind that George Bush was much more union friendly than out current president.

how can any open border potus be considered 'union friendly'?

theUpsideDown
02-11-2020, 05:15 AM
No one cared about Mesaba. I should have said major airlines. The president can appoint a PEB that will be given 60 days to look at each sides positions. At the end of the 60 days the PEB can allow a strike or recommend that a contract be imposed by Congress.

“The President may create an emergency board to investigate and report on a dispute over the terms of a collective bargaining agreement. Under the Railway Labor Act, the President may exercise his discretion to create an emergency board when the labor dispute threatens “substantially to interrupt interstate commerce to a degree such as to deprive any section of the country of essential transportation service.”

News report as the end of the 30 day cooling off approached.
“The airline did not explicitly ask for President Bush's intervention, but it certainly raised the hope that he would block a strike for at least 60 days, as he can do under airline labor law, while a "presidential emergency board," or PEB, considers the dispute.
The statement quotes a statement from the president that he would "take the NECESSARY STEPS to prevent major airline strikes from happening this year, It's important for our economy, but more important, it's important for the hardworking people of America, to make sure air service is not disrupted."

Keep in mind that George Bush was much more union friendly than out current president.
Well I agree the president can delay a strike, if only youd youd said that.

You can double check me, https://nmb.gov/NMB_Application/index.php/presidential-emergency-boards/ , but once again president cant stop the strike. Your own peb site info you lifted that from tells you at the conclusion of the delay you can still strike.

The president isnt the God of all unions and labor agreements. He could try to renationalise the airlines, good luck getting congress to agree. We arent france, but unions do have SOME fair power of leverage in this country.

Certainly a labor friendly president might appoint someone to the NMB that allows for a little more shoving the company around, but only to an extent. The law is the law. Follow it, respect the process, keep the BS to a minimum and youll get released. Im not pretending its a perfectly manufactured process, but it is what we have.

BobZ
02-11-2020, 05:16 AM
You need to provide context for why a strike was allowed. NWA management specifically requested access to self help and that there be no government intervention to prevent self help from either side. Technically the mechanics were locked out. Their only real hope was support from the pilots which did not happen.

Northwest made it clear it would declare a lockout if the mechanics union decided not to strike when a 30-day “cooling-off” period expired at midnight Friday. The company had boasted of having prepared for the past 18 months to launch a strikebreaking operation and had spent over $100 million to hire and house “replacement” mechanics and flight attendants. The airline lined up 1,200 nonunion mechanics, plus 400 vendor workers and 300 managers for a total strikebreaking force of 1,900.


At an open mec meeting in atl D Woerth was asked about supporting the nwa mechanics. His answer.....screw them...they can twist in the wind....

But make sure you dont buy those california table grapes....

sailingfun
02-11-2020, 05:28 AM
Well I agree the president can delay a strike, if only youd youd said that.

You can double check me, https://nmb.gov/NMB_Application/index.php/presidential-emergency-boards/ , but once again president cant stop the strike. Your own peb site info you lifted that from tells you at the conclusion of the delay you can still strike.

The president isnt the God of all unions and labor agreements. He could try to renationalise the airlines, good luck getting congress to agree. We arent france, but unions do have SOME fair power of leverage in this country.

Certainly a labor friendly president might appoint someone to the NMB that allows for a little more shoving the company around, but only to an extent. The law is the law. Follow it, respect the process, keep the BS to a minimum and youll get released. Im not pretending its a perfectly manufactured process, but it is what we have.

When GB stated there would be no strikes I suspect he was very confident that if the PEB recommended a imposed contract congress would agree. Since the president picks the PEB members that outcome is preordained.
I have zero doubt DT would attempt to impose a contract if we reached that point. The only question is what is the mechanism to do so. Vote by the Senate? Vote by the House? It might just be a vote of a Committee. I don’t know the answer but the details could be important.

sailingfun
02-11-2020, 05:33 AM
Here is a example of what is happening under the current administration regarding unions. September 12, 2019







The collective bargaining rights of federal workers are being crushed. This effort is being driven by three executive orders and the elimination of contracts that have been in effect for decades.

In some agencies, long-standing contracts have been replaced with edicts imposed unilaterally by management, which has the audacity to refer to them as “collective bargaining agreements.”

In other agencies, contracts are being annihilated by the anti-worker Federal Service Impasses Panel, which is supposed to resolve disputes in a neutral fashion. Instead, the FSIP is rubber-stamping the elimination of the core provisions of contracts through management’s unilaterally designed edicts.

In both cases, the destruction of workers’ rights to participate in unions and engage in collective bargaining is being systematically destroyed, and federal workers cannot and shouldn’t have to wait years for a court outcome. Congress must intervene now to protect the rights of federal workers by passing legislation to ensure that agencies abide by the law and bargain in good faith.

Unilaterally imposed “contracts” are removing unions from the federal workplace—allowing no space to conduct specific representational duties as required by federal law.

BobZ
02-11-2020, 05:42 AM
Those are federal workers you are talking about. Who face few of the economic circumstances of private sector union members. Least of which is their replacement by undocumented workers.

See....federal employment is the ONE place immigration and employment laws have been enforced over the last 30 years.

sailingfun
02-11-2020, 06:27 AM
Those are federal workers you are talking about. Who face few of the economic circumstances of private sector union members. Least of which is their replacement by undocumented workers.

See....federal employment is the ONE place immigration and employment laws have been enforced over the last 30 years.

They are federal workers but note how these changes were implemented. I would not state Trump dislikes unions but rather abhors them with every bone in his body. His dealings with unions while constructing projects reinforces that belief.

BobZ
02-11-2020, 06:37 AM
His efforts to limit illegal workers undermining union labor speaks far louder than any potus of the last 30 years.

Not to mention what he has done to check the chinese.

TED74
02-11-2020, 07:00 AM
Not to mention what he has done to check the chinese.

How so? When you cede international leadership and withdraw you open a whole can of worms. If we continue on our current vector, I cringe to imagine how China will dominate in 10-20 years.

Exhibit 1: see latest news regarding military coordination with the Philippines. Just one little domino.

BobZ
02-11-2020, 07:20 AM
Guess you missed the tier 1 trade agreement.

As with africa, failing economic states will dance with whoever brings the money.

Spudhauler
02-11-2020, 09:39 AM
Guess you missed the tier 1 trade agreement.

As with africa, failing economic states will dance with whoever brings the money.

if not for the current potus the US was already on the economic trajectory to be a subservient client state to the communist chinese.

Everyone needs to keep their politics to themselves.

House of Usher
02-11-2020, 01:39 PM
You need to provide context for why a strike was allowed. NWA management specifically requested access to self help and that there be no government intervention to prevent self help from either side. Technically the mechanics were locked out. Their only real hope was support from the pilots which did not happen.

Northwest made it clear it would declare a lockout if the mechanics union decided not to strike when a 30-day “cooling-off” period expired at midnight Friday. The company had boasted of having prepared for the past 18 months to launch a strikebreaking operation and had spent over $100 million to hire and house “replacement” mechanics and flight attendants. The airline lined up 1,200 nonunion mechanics, plus 400 vendor workers and 300 managers for a total strikebreaking force of 1,900.

If I remember correctly, a strike occurred because an impasse was declared. You are absolutely correct, NWA threatened a strikebreaking operation. The mechanics (and aircraft cleaners) set up picket lines and NWA carried through with the threat of replacement workers. Following that, NWA set a deadline for all striking mechanics to return; the cleaners were outta luck. Over the next few weeks, several of the mechanics did return to work. Yes, they crossed a picket line. However AMFA, their union, really did them a disservice. AMFA was full of bravado, slighted other NWA unionized groups, and at the end of the day mislead the mechanics. The airline was heading into bankruptcy and for some reason they still felt bulletproof. Once it became obvious the strike was crumbling, AMFA began reaching out to the other employee groups for support. "Um No" was the collective response. There are times when striking is the logical choice (ie- NWA pilots '98). This wasn't one of those times.

theUpsideDown
02-11-2020, 02:38 PM
If I remember correctly, a strike occurred because an impasse was declared. You are absolutely correct, NWA threatened a strikebreaking operation. The mechanics (and aircraft cleaners) set up picket lines and NWA carried through with the threat of replacement workers. Following that, NWA set a deadline for all striking mechanics to return; the cleaners were outta luck. Over the next few weeks, several of the mechanics did return to work. Yes, they crossed a picket line. However AMFA, their union, really did them a disservice. AMFA was full of bravado, slighted other NWA unionized groups, and at the end of the day mislead the mechanics. The airline was heading into bankruptcy and for some reason they still felt bulletproof. Once it became obvious the strike was crumbling, AMFA began reaching out to the other employee groups for support. "Um No" was the collective response. There are times when striking is the logical choice (ie- NWA pilots '98). This wasn't one of those times.
Unfortunately union leadership can sometimes be fatally flawed.

Shakinthefat
03-06-2020, 08:04 PM
Haven’t heard from ALPA on their thoughts of Coronavirus pertaining to C20 talks.

Will this virus craziness have repercussions on C20? Will the company use this downturn to their advantage?

sailingfun
03-07-2020, 03:48 AM
Haven’t heard from ALPA on their thoughts of Coronavirus pertaining to C20 talks.

Will this virus craziness have repercussions on C20? Will the company use this downturn to their advantage?

We should be in serious discussions with the company on how to handle the massive pull down in flying that looks like will happen soon. We should be crafting the best solutions for the company and pilots. That would also put us in the best negotiating position for a contract when this virus has run its course and the panic ends.