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View Full Version : Juvenile Record 22 years ago


vectored
02-02-2020, 11:15 AM
Looking for advice/info on how to answer an application question specifically with American. I was arrested in 1998, spent one night in jail and was charged with possession of marijuana and alcohol as a 17 year old. I am not really sure if I was convicted but I received community service and a fine. I ran my own FBI check and to my surprise this arrest shows up. Does the AA app asked if you have ever been arrested? Do the airline background checks go back 22 years? Is there anyway to remove this? Is there a way to find out if I was convicted? I am assuming since it showed up on my personal check that I was convicted?


Gloriousprofits
02-02-2020, 12:29 PM
I would talk to a consulting company like Cage or Emerald Coast etc. but what they are going to say is put it on there and own it. I really don't think it will be that big of a deal given your age and time since it happened. If they sniff out any untruthfulness it's going to be instant game over.

vectored
02-03-2020, 12:23 PM
Is there anyway to get the juvenile record removed? Will a major hire me? I have a top secret security clearance.


TheRotorTrash
02-03-2020, 12:44 PM
Is there anyway to get the juvenile record removed? Will a major hire me? I have a top secret security clearance.

Always a possibility... Sounds like a question for a lawyer.

TiredSoul
02-03-2020, 01:16 PM
Yeah this is a lawyer question and not a forum question.
Good luck with it.

vectored
02-03-2020, 01:27 PM
Yeah I am looking into expungement lawyers now. I was just curious if anyone had experience or knowledge of the majors (AA) still hiring guys with a record from over 20 years ago.

Bahamasflyer
02-03-2020, 03:30 PM
I could be totally wrong, but common sense tells me that if you were able to get a TS clearance with a juvie record, that an airline will have nooooo problem with it.

I would absolutely err on the side of caution and list it.

rickair7777
02-04-2020, 06:05 PM
Looking for advice/info on how to answer an application question specifically with American. I was arrested in 1998, spent one night in jail and was charged with possession of marijuana and alcohol as a 17 year old. I am not really sure if I was convicted but I received community service and a fine. I ran my own FBI check and to my surprise this arrest shows up. Does the AA app asked if you have ever been arrested? Do the airline background checks go back 22 years? Is there anyway to remove this? Is there a way to find out if I was convicted? I am assuming since it showed up on my personal check that I was convicted?

There are some unknowns (to the likes of us) and uncertainty about airline background checks.

The legally required check (SIDA) involves access to the FBI's database. That database is NOT just a justice system database, it is a national security database, as much an intelligence as a law enforcement system. A few things to understand...

- It includes arrests, in addition to convictions, for serious crimes (assumed to be DUI and above). So you may not have been convicted, but you definitely need to find out for sure.
- The FBI does not necessarily have to expunge anything from that database, since, unlike court records, it is not accessible to the public.
- Expungements do not necessarily get processed and executed reliably at all levels, and there are probably commercial databases which retain all court records from the past.
- The SIDA rules have a statute of limitations for some lesser crimes.
- The SIDA restrictions apply only to convictions.
- Even though they are required to screen for specific SIDA convictions, airlines may actually be able to view an applicant's entire history, including arrests and convictions which are not SIDA relevant. This is why the conventional wisdom is to not hide anything which they ask for. Conventional wisdom also says don't tell them any derogatory info they did not specifically ask for.

Holding a TS does not necessarily guarantee that all airlines will be good with your history. The government takes a very practical approach to security clearances... are you CURRENTLY a security risk? They won't care much about a one time minor youthful indiscretion in the distant past. But airlines are also worried how your record will appear in the media if you have the misfortune to become newsworthy in the line of duty... in that case, ANYTHING from your past will be blown out of proportion in the interest of "news-worthiness", regardless of how long ago or how minor.

John Carr
02-05-2020, 06:11 PM
Looking for advice/info on how to answer an application question specifically with American. I was arrested in 1998, spent one night in jail and was charged with possession of marijuana and alcohol as a 17 year old. I am not really sure if I was convicted but I received community service and a fine. I ran my own FBI check and to my surprise this arrest shows up. Does the AA app asked if you have ever been arrested? Do the airline background checks go back 22 years? Is there anyway to remove this? Is there a way to find out if I was convicted? I am assuming since it showed up on my personal check that I was convicted?

Sorry, don't know specifics about AA. It's, like, just my opinion man........

....but based off of observations, guys I've known, what have you.

If this happened that long ago, when you were 17, you were a dumb kid. You made a dumb kid mistake, one that many have made, AND been hired with. Is you record since then (mostly) clean? As in, NO serious run-ins with the law? A ticket here or there doesn't really count. But no major issues? Is your flying record good? If so, KEEP IT THAT WAY.

Because it doesn't matter what airline you interview with, you're going to have to explain it. But ALSO, it doesn't matter what airline you interview with, you're likely to get a TMAAT that you messed up, made a mistake, how you did something wrong, what have you. It's a perfect slam dunk to check that question box and move on, in A LOT OF WAYS.

rickair7777
02-06-2020, 06:13 AM
Sorry, don't know specifics about AA. It's, like, just my opinion man........

....but based off of observations, guys I've known, what have you.

If this happened that long ago, when you were 17, you were a dumb kid. You made a dumb kid mistake, one that many have made, AND been hired with. Is you record since then (mostly) clean? As in, NO serious run-ins with the law? A ticket here or there doesn't really count. But no major issues? Is your flying record good? If so, KEEP IT THAT WAY.

Because it doesn't matter what airline you interview with, you're going to have to explain it. But ALSO, it doesn't matter what airline you interview with, you're likely to get a TMAAT that you messed up, made a mistake, how you did something wrong, what have you. It's a perfect slam dunk to check that question box and move on, in A LOT OF WAYS.

I agree that this incident will not be disqualifying, and can be explained at an interview.

The risk with something like this is if you don't disclose it, they find out, and conclude that you SHOULD have disclosed it based on what they asked. In that case you'd obviously be blacklisted.

The flip side of that is there is risk in checking boxes that you didn't have to check... that will make it harder to get past the computer screen to get to an interview where you can explain anything.

Remember, their filtering is not *just* to find the best candidate... it also serves to make it easier (less costly) for HR to find suitable candidates. Since EVERYBODY with a past criminal issue will have an excuse, HR then has to adjudicate that kind of history to get to the bottom of it. That takes time, money, and ultimately is actually risky for HR since they might adjudicate wrong... better to not have to adjudicate at all, and hire folks with clean records. So the process is intended to be *fair* to the HR folks who have to do the work, not so much the applicants.

You can make their adjudication very easy: Fess up, tell them what you learned, and then shut up. That applies to any explanation of adverse circumstances on the app or at an interview. That's a LOT easier to adjudicate than some guy's sob story about how he was framed by the cops, etc.

John Carr
02-06-2020, 10:10 AM
I agree that this incident will not be disqualifying, and can be explained at an interview.

The risk with something like this is if you don't disclose it, they find out, and conclude that you SHOULD have disclosed it based on what they asked. In that case you'd obviously be blacklisted.

Agree with that, it's obvious.

The flip side of that is there is risk in checking boxes that you didn't have to check... that will make it harder to get past the computer screen to get to an interview where you can explain anything.

Remember, their filtering is not *just* to find the best candidate... it also serves to make it easier (less costly) for HR to find suitable candidates. Since EVERYBODY with a past criminal issue will have an excuse, HR then has to adjudicate that kind of history to get to the bottom of it. That takes time, money, and ultimately is actually risky for HR since they might adjudicate wrong... better to not have to adjudicate at all, and hire folks with clean records. So the process is intended to be *fair* to the HR folks who have to do the work, not so much the applicants.

You can make their adjudication very easy: Fess up, tell them what you learned, and then shut up. That applies to any explanation of adverse circumstances on the app or at an interview. That's a LOT easier to adjudicate than some guy's sob story about how he was framed by the cops, etc.

Agree with that also. But we both know that it's more complex than that. Granted, I haven't touched an AA app in years, but the screen/selection process gets more involved than that. As in, if a box is checked with dates (long ago) provided it becomes a non issue.

The last part I put in bold is what I'm getting at. It's simply easier and, dare I say, to the applicants benefit to simply put it on there and use it to their advantage versus stressing about it and go through a process and have it all out removed, etc.

vectored
02-06-2020, 10:15 AM
There are some unknowns (to the likes of us) and uncertainty about airline background checks.

The legally required check (SIDA) involves access to the FBI's database. That database is NOT just a justice system database, it is a national security database, as much an intelligence as a law enforcement system. A few things to understand...

- It includes arrests, in addition to convictions, for serious crimes (assumed to be DUI and above). So you may not have been convicted, but you definitely need to find out for sure.
- The FBI does not necessarily have to expunge anything from that database, since, unlike court records, it is not accessible to the public.
- Expungements do not necessarily get processed and executed reliably at all levels, and there are probably commercial databases which retain all court records from the past.
- The SIDA rules have a statute of limitations for some lesser crimes.
- The SIDA restrictions apply only to convictions.
- Even though they are required to screen for specific SIDA convictions, airlines may actually be able to view an applicant's entire history, including arrests and convictions which are not SIDA relevant. This is why the conventional wisdom is to not hide anything which they ask for. Conventional wisdom also says don't tell them any derogatory info they did not specifically ask for.

Holding a TS does not necessarily guarantee that all airlines will be good with your history. The government takes a very practical approach to security clearances... are you CURRENTLY a security risk? They won't care much about a one time minor youthful indiscretion in the distant past. But airlines are also worried how your record will appear in the media if you have the misfortune to become newsworthy in the line of duty... in that case, ANYTHING from your past will be blown out of proportion in the interest of "news-worthiness", regardless of how long ago or how minor.

Not sure I track everything above but it seems like the consensus is that even if I pay a lawyer to expunge my juvenile record; the airlines may still find it somewhere in a search. Maybe I should just fess up and say I made 1 dumb mistake with some alcohol and marijuana as a 17 year old. I have a very clean record since then to include flying.

If I fess up on the conviction question during the application will I be flagged by the computer? Will it cause delays in my application? Will HR have to dig into my answer before I get an interview?

rickair7777
02-06-2020, 10:46 AM
Not sure I track everything above but it seems like the consensus is that even if I pay a lawyer to expunge my juvenile record; the airlines may still find it somewhere in a search. Maybe I should just fess up and say I made 1 dumb mistake with some alcohol and marijuana as a 17 year old. I have a very clean record since then to include flying.

If I fess up on the conviction question during the application will I be flagged by the computer? Will it cause delays in my application? Will HR have to dig into my answer before I get an interview?

I think you definitely have to determine if you were convicted. Like I said, the FBI data can include arrests in addition to convictions.

If the app asks about convictions but not arrests, you don't want to report something which was not an actual conviction.

Checking any adverse box will likely delay your consideration for an interview, and I assume that eventually when you did float to the top of the stack they would have to manually consider your written explanation before granting an interview. All else equal, the computer will select someone with fewer adverse boxes checked.

Diversions, expungements, etc might be a grey area if it showed up in official records than an airline could see. I don't know the right answer there. In the case of minor youthful stuff, probably better to fess up and have a laugh about it at the interview than risk the suspicion of deceit. If you had a serious conviction that got expunged, might be better to try to stick to the letter of the law and not report it (be prepared to go to the mat in the civil courts if they fire you later).

Things that are pretty clear cut in normal private-sector employment can be grey with the airlines due to the security issues and the access they have (normal employers cannot routinely reference federal records about you).