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View Full Version : Senior 717 FO QOL


Fozz179fs
02-02-2020, 06:31 PM
Sitting at 65%ish as a MSP 73N FO, thinking of bidding 717 B next time around with a qualifier of 20%. QOL, schedule, holidays and weekends off are priority for me. Iíve done the math on the pay. Been looking at bid packages, but just curious if anyone can share their experience of living in base and being in the top 20% of the 717.


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contrails
02-02-2020, 09:05 PM
The seats are extremely uncomfortable.

velosnow
02-03-2020, 12:41 AM
The seats are extremely uncomfortable.

My back is 10x happier after getting out of that evil contraption of a seat.


Rooster435
02-03-2020, 02:30 AM
Seniority is always nice for vacation, schedule control and LCA trips but I think youíll find 717 trips donít have a lot of variety. Trips that senior and junior guys do are pretty much the same.

Canít say for certain what Minny trips will look like since the base hasnít opened yet but probably similar to DTW. You can expect a lot of regional type flying. My guess would be lots Dakotas, Midwest, CLT, RDU, BNA, STL, BOS. Nothing west coast, very little Florida or Texas. Majority 4 day trips unless you are NYC based. Also a fair amount of 30 hour layovers.

The seat does suck.

tennisguru
02-03-2020, 03:24 AM
The seats are extremely uncomfortable.

... For 60 minutes at a time...

Bandit702
02-03-2020, 04:17 AM
I've lived in base (ATL) at abt 30% for the past few years and it's been great. Granted ATL is a lot bigger than MSP is going to be, but if you are 20% anywhere in the 717 you will get the schedule you want, definitely wkds/holidays off. Personally, I never found the seat to be a problem at all, I actually cringe ridding jump on the 737 and thought that cockpit was less comfortable than the 717. Worst case between the seat, total workspace, ease of entry/exit, forward lav location, boarding congestion, etc. at best its a wash comparing 717 to 737.


Pros:

Much higher percentage credit vs block (almost no hard time trips)

NO Redeyes

Lots of LCA buyoffs, WS and GS options at that % seniority

You won't see a 5 leg day above 50% seniority unless you want to


Cons:

Smaller city L/Os

Mostly 4 day trips (in ATL at least)

The windows sometimes leak during deicing (not a huge issue in ATL, but MSP....)


Not sure if the pay difference is a big as some think. There are soooo many ways to squeeze $ from 20% seniority. I'm relatively new and I cleared $300k last year on the 717. Good luck with the decision.

GogglesPisano
02-03-2020, 07:32 AM
Seniority is always nice for vacation, schedule control and LCA trips but I think you’ll find 717 trips don’t have a lot of variety. .

If you go back and read the CR Updates for the last (x) years, when it comes to the 717 the first sentence is always: The bid package for the 717 in (next month) is similar to (this month.) Without fail. There is never anything new.

Yes the seat is terrible. Yes, the windows leak de-ice fluid (come on, it's a Douglas) You'll also notice a lot more MEL's than the 737 -- especially the APU in the summer. Yes, the landing gear are made of concrete. Yes, the windshield wipers are the worst ever designed. Yes, you'll notice that the captain occasionally has to open his side window to park at night in the rain in order to see.

But it's quiet, I'll give it that.

I went the other way and am very happy.

Bidder beware.

contrails
02-03-2020, 08:07 AM
... For 60 minutes at a time...

True, the flights are short.

But the 3-4 legs per day cancels that out.

With the exception of a quick lav break (that's across the doorway flow of incoming/outgoing passengers), figure an average 717 pilot is in the seat for 30 minutes leading up to pushback, and 5-10 minutes after block-in. We'll call that 40 minutes.

If you do 4 legs in a day, that's 2 hours 40 minutes of cockpit seat time -- of the unpaid, non-block hour variety.

If the 4 legs were only an hour flight each, so around 1:30 block, that's 6 hours plus the 2:40 and all of a sudden we're up to 8 hours and 40 minutes of time spent sitting in the seats.

Not an ergonomic environment.

TallWeeds
02-03-2020, 08:08 AM
I'm about 55% in DTW. I get every holiday and about half the weekends off. I can usually drop 2 trips per month to rebuild my schedule how I want. Everybody up to an including the plug has ample GS opportunity. All the trips are the same. Your seniority really doesn't buy you much in that regard. I don't plan on leaving for a while.

Fozz179fs
02-03-2020, 01:44 PM
Not sure if the pay difference is a big as some think. There are soooo many ways to squeeze $ from 20% seniority. I'm relatively new and I cleared $300k last year on the 717. Good luck with the decision.



$300k as an FO? If so did you do lots of Rolling Thunder, LCA buy offs ect!!


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bohicagain
02-03-2020, 03:17 PM
$300k as an FO? If so did you do lots of Rolling Thunder, LCA buy offs ect!!


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I fly a bunch with the same 2-3 guys in DTW and they play the drop entire schedule GS and white slip and end up with 170 hours at a min every month x $165 an hour + PS. Theses FO's clear 400K with DC excess cash.

They are working the schedule hard. Minimal LCA trips. Always working.

Lone Palm
02-03-2020, 03:20 PM
YMMV but Iíd venture to guess the 717 in MSP will see 3-5 leg days consisting of IND, GRR, FAR, OMA types of cities with the occasional JFK turn thrown in. I wouldnít expect any warm weather destinations for the most part unless you cycle through ATL. The good news is, no WATRS airspace and closing down shop at night will be quicker with less people onboard!

Bandit702
02-03-2020, 04:37 PM
$300k as an FO? If so did you do lots of Rolling Thunder, LCA buy offs ect!!


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Never got a "Rolling Thunder" going (that would've been nice), but its not hard to avg a 3-day GS a month with 30% seniority. Add in an LCA 3-4 day trip buy every other month + a couple easy 1-2 day WSs and you are there. It is easy to 'throttle' the 717 when senior. Want to chillax this month? No problem drop everything and WS the easy ones. Want to max effort? No problem, bid off for wkds/holidays, blanket GS, watch the WX channel and wait. btw, I'm married with 2 kids under 10 and we took 6 vacations last year of 3-7 days each so you don't have to be a QOL hating unic to make that happen. It has its cons like every other category, but I meet a lot of guys who assume it would be a pay cut which isn't necessarily true.

Han Solo
02-03-2020, 05:04 PM
I fly a bunch with the same 2-3 guys in DTW and they play the drop entire schedule GS and white slip and end up with 170 hours at a min every month x $165 an hour + PS. Theses FO's clear 400K with DC excess cash.

They are working the schedule hard. Minimal LCA trips. Always working.

Very interesting. I started to do the math to show how it couldn't be done but the math says its very doable.

If they fly to pickup limit every month it will average out to 90 hours/month which means they need roughly 8 days worth of GS every single month to get to 172 hours. That's $336k + $16k excess DC. Now if you add in another 15% PS then they're right at $400k (assuming they made the same $336k last year, probably a little generous since manning was better).

So to get to PU limit they're working 17 days, obviously a few of these will be 2-day 2-leg easy trips so not the end of the world. Add in the 8 days of GS and they're working 25 days a month, that's quite a bit of work, it can be done but most guys aren't going to want to work that much. I did RT in the spring/summer of '16 and averaged 180 hours (at $99/hour!) working about 20 days each month for 6 months so I know it's doable when manning is really bad. These days I come home from a 3 day trip and I'm usually exhausted, I don't think I could sustain 25 days a month for an entire year -- maybe if those 17 days of getting to the PU limit are entirely high credit 2 and 3 day trips with 2-3 total legs but only low single digit seniority % in category will be able to swing that. If they get rerouted enough then they might be able to shave a day or two off each month on average and still hit $400k.

Bandit702
02-03-2020, 05:46 PM
Very interesting. I started to do the math to show how it couldn't be done but the math says its very doable.


If they fly to pickup limit every month it will average out to 90 hours/month which means they need roughly 8 days worth of GS every single month to get to 172 hours. That's $336k + $16k excess DC. Now if you add in another 15% PS then they're right at $400k (assuming they made the same $336k last year, probably a little generous since manning was better).


So to get to PU limit they're working 17 days, obviously a few of these will be 2-day 2-leg easy trips so not the end of the world. Add in the 8 days of GS and they're working 25 days a month, that's quite a bit of work, it can be done but most guys aren't going to want to work that much. I did RT in the spring/summer of '16 and averaged 180 hours (at $99/hour!) working about 20 days each month for 6 months so I know it's doable when manning is really bad. These days I come home from a 3 day trip and I'm usually exhausted, I don't think I could sustain 25 days a month for an entire year -- maybe if those 17 days of getting to the PU limit are entirely high credit 2 and 3 day trips with 2-3 total legs but only low single digit seniority % in category will be able to swing that. If they get rerouted enough then they might be able to shave a day or two off each month on average and still hit $400k.


Getting to $400k to me is a Moonshot. Maybe I'd try it just to push myself once but unlikely. No judgement on guys who do though, but it would be too painful for me personally to do max PU + GS every month. Getting to +$300 however, IMHO is not that difficult for someone at 20% seniority on the 717.


85 hr line + 18hr GS = 121 hrs x (155-165 rate) x 1.305 (DC + 2018 PS) x 12 months = $293k - $313k split the diff and call it $303k (plus another $10k domestic per-diem) = $313k


18 hr GS usually = 3 days of work. 85 hrs on the line is abt 16 days (minus any LCA buy off so probably avg 14.5 - 15) in total I avg 17-20 days per month with some of those being easy 1-2 day trips where no one even knows you were gone. It can/has been done.

Han Solo
02-04-2020, 02:25 AM
Getting to $400k to me is a Moonshot. Maybe I'd try it just to push myself once but unlikely. No judgement on guys who do though, but it would be too painful for me

For me it's a moonshot for a middle aged astronomer -- no can do. As another junior 717a I pretty much get RES guarantee plus whatever green I can mop up at the end of the month. Currently the greens are where even junior captains can get in on some of the action, but I take what I can get which usually means 1-3 days/month. Add that on top of guarantee and the best I can do is a 90 hour per month average. Certainly not complaining, as I have to work considerably fewer total days and I'm certainly not unhappy about my compensation. As an FO my seniority would put me around 10-15% so I could play the game but not quite as well. I find the left seat more rewarding than the right, my wife just prefers a fat bank account so there is that :).

Sputnik
02-04-2020, 03:58 AM
Han, how much are you actually being used on res in a given month?

Han Solo
02-04-2020, 04:20 AM
Han, how much are you actually being used on res in a given month?
Almost every available day since the summer. I get creative in conflicting my schedule, CS has far more tools to be far more creative to give me a trip. Nothing like a 2 day trip with 3 DH so I can operate 1 friggin' leg from another base's trip.

GliderCFI
02-04-2020, 06:07 AM
Almost every available day since the summer. I get creative in conflicting my schedule, CS has far more tools to be far more creative to give me a trip. Nothing like a 2 day trip with 3 DH so I can operate 1 friggin' leg from another base's trip.

I feel likey first year as 717A I was able to drop days and avoid work pretty easily when I needed to. Flew 300 hours my first year on it. But that only works if you're the only one doing it. This last summer I think we all got so abused that I remember September onward everyone was dropping anything on a blue day to have a chance at getting a break. Result was I never see a 4 day trip get assigned anymore. They break everything up and we work anyway, just like you said. Deadheads for days.

Pogey Bait
02-04-2020, 07:12 AM
Almost every available day since the summer. I get creative in conflicting my schedule, CS has far more tools to be far more creative to give me a trip. Nothing like a 2 day trip with 3 DH so I can operate 1 friggin' leg from another base's trip.

You must be in ATL....when I was there, same thing, DH to another base and fly.

astrojet
02-04-2020, 03:34 PM
717 flys to 129 airports...320 only about 30. 717 has a 100% perfect safety record not a single hull loss. you can do 250kts over the marker and still be stable at 1000ft agl...

Rooster435
02-04-2020, 05:21 PM
717 flys to 129 airports...320 only about 30. 717 has a 100% perfect safety record not a single hull loss. you can do 250kts over the marker and still be stable at 1000ft agl...

Find it hard to believe the 320 only goes to 30 cities. Where are you getting that from?

As far as the 717 it might fly to 129 cities but at least in DTW the vast majority of layovers are all in the same 15 or so cities.

GliderCFI
02-04-2020, 08:52 PM
Find it hard to believe the 320 only goes to 30 cities. Where are you getting that from?

As far as the 717 it might fly to 129 cities but at least in DTW the vast majority of layovers are all in the same 15 or so cities.

And all of them are in the Dakota's, I swear.

Fozz179fs
02-04-2020, 08:56 PM
I love the Dakotas, lots of ducks and pheasants


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Han Solo
02-05-2020, 03:54 AM
I love the Dakotas, lots of ducks and pheasants


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Oh, you carry your shotgun on trips do you?

Herkflyr
02-05-2020, 05:05 AM
"Find it hard to believe the 320 only goes to 30 cities. Where are you getting that from?"

I think he just made it up on the spot, as in "73.6 % of statistics are made up on the spot." I'm not sure what the agenda was. I was curious, so in the March 320 bid package for ATL alone, there are 71 different layover cities. That doesn't include any city where we fly into, but don't layover, such as CUN or BDA. I'm sure there are quite a few more.

I'm guessing that across the system the 320 probably has around 100 layover cities, and at least 25-50 more places we fly through, but perhaps don't layover.

Now I can see finding yourself sort of in a "rut" flying to DCA, BOS, and south FL cities over and over, and it may seem that we only fly to 30 cities. A quick fact check would dispel that however.

Iceberg
02-05-2020, 05:53 AM
717 flys to 129 airports...320 only about 30. 717 has a 100% perfect safety record not a single hull loss. you can do 250kts over the marker and still be stable at 1000ft agl...

Yup. 320 is unsafe, very slow, and goes no where. Everybody bid the 717!

Iceberg
02-05-2020, 05:54 AM
"Find it hard to believe the 320 only goes to 30 cities. Where are you getting that from?"

I think he just made it up on the spot, as in "73.6 % of statistics are made up on the spot." I'm not sure what the agenda was. I was curious, so in the March 320 bid package for ATL alone, there are 71 different layover cities. That doesn't include any city where we fly into, but don't layover, such as CUN or BDA. I'm sure there are quite a few more.

I'm guessing that across the system the 320 probably has around 100 layover cities, and at least 25-50 more places we fly through, but perhaps don't layover.

Now I can see finding yourself sort of in a "rut" flying to DCA, BOS, and south FL cities over and over, and it may seem that we only fly to 30 cities. A quick fact check would dispel that however.


Shhh. The planes awful and should be new hire fodder.

Klondike Bear
02-05-2020, 07:10 AM
Whatever you do donít go to the ER. Our trips have gotten horrible in the last year. Hardly any international left.

Fozz179fs
02-05-2020, 12:33 PM
Oh, you carry your shotgun on trips do you?



Pre positioned.


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freezingflyboy
02-05-2020, 01:25 PM
Whatever you do donít go to the ER. Our trips have gotten horrible in the last year. Hardly any international left.

If you need to cross an ocean every week to feel like a man, go to the 330. Otherwise you'll take Florida and trans/mid-cons and you'll like it!:D

crewdawg
02-05-2020, 01:38 PM
If you need to cross an ocean every week to feel like a man, go to the 330. Otherwise you'll take Florida and trans/mid-cons and you'll like it!:D

Every week?!? Why would you want to work that much? Only come to the 330 if you want to do that every 2 or 3 weeks! :D

Klondike Bear
02-05-2020, 06:24 PM
If you need to cross an ocean every week to feel like a man, go to the 330. Otherwise you'll take Florida and trans/mid-cons and you'll like it!:D

lol! Yeah not me I avoid international. Well I did enjoy BOG every now and then before it got Gummed. Europe though I didnít want to go but it was nice for some people senior to me. But even the trans cons all have a penalty lap on the end of them now.