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skypine27
02-05-2020, 05:22 AM
....about this??


https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3049102/coronavirus-hong-kong-government-extend-work-home

(from the article):Coronavirus: Hong Kong to require all travellers entering from mainland China to go into quarantine for 14 days as cityís leader invokes special powers


skypine27
02-05-2020, 05:37 AM
UPS:

IPA Achieves China Agreement
Tuesday, February 04, 2020 11:43:00 PM
Following a marathon bargaining session stretching late into the night, the IPA has reached an agreement with UPS related to China flying during the coronavirus international public health crisis.

In this video, IPA President Bob Travis details provisions of the new agreement that will make all crewmember flying to mainland China strictly voluntary during the emergency.

The Coronavirus Letter of Agreement (LOA) will be posted by noon, February 5 on the IPA website.

All mainland China flying will be voluntary and paid at 150%

busdriver12
02-05-2020, 05:40 AM
Wonder if ALPA is working on that???

Or maybe they gave up after the company agreed people can expense up to $25 for a thermometer.:mad:


Adlerdriver
02-05-2020, 06:03 AM
Wonder if ALPA is working on that???

Or maybe they gave up after the company agreed people can expense up to $25 for a thermometer.:mad:
Line in the sand??

APA sues and flights stop.............IPA gets volunteer and it's at 150%............. Fdx ALPA????

FDXpilot
02-05-2020, 06:13 AM
HKG peeps are saying we need support! There are many factors that affect so many families in different ways. Masks and personal protection equipment are in short supply. Panic mode has set in here. Many wanting to evac their families.

There are families that are unable to get medical treatment for very basic issues. Such as basic appointments for meds to necessary MRI appointments. Unable to get appointments due to the fact that Doctors are unwilling to see patients that have been in contact with people that have been in China in the previous 14 days. The situation is drastically changing day by day.

Children are unable to attend school. There are several case of people's children unable to attend school (especially outside of HK. HK has canceled school for weeks during the outbeak) because their parents have had to go to work in China in the last 14 days. This will perpetuallly leave them in limbo until the parent(s) are not flying anymore. Basically if you have been to China in the last 14 days you're a social pariah.

Flight cancellations out of HKG have created a back log, and some families have found it hard to depart HK. So many flights canceled. (Not that it matters, because if you return to the states, you are probably on quarantine anyways.) There are some families finding that there is nowhere to go. Most of the border entries from China to HK have closed.

HK just recently announced a mandatory 14 day quarantine period for people returning from China. Not sure how this is really gonna affect our ops. Might be that our pilots won't be able to work for 2 weeks after flying a trip. Many changing factors each day. Possiblity of being put into quarantine is high.

Grocery stores are running out of supplies. (At least mine is) Out of bread, toilet paper, and other basics, with no insight of replenishment soon. (This is not the same as in the states, we don't have cars here, so going to another store usually not an option.)

There are several countries that won't let us operate into their countries due to us being in China recently either, without a quarantine period. This is quite confusing as to which countries we can legally operate into and out of. So far we've just been winging it. This has created confusion, and many reroutes and cancellations. Singapore for example requires us to stay in the airport terminal hotel and not leave the terminal. Its suprising that we are able to operate there at all.

I can't really say how this will all play out. Its not getting better at this point. Only getting worse.

Adlerdriver
02-05-2020, 07:00 AM
Here's one HKG guy's opinion:
When I was in the US military, I hung my ass out, got shot at, tangled with MiGs and accepted all the stuff that came with signing the blank check to Uncle Sam. Now I'm a civilian.
I fly FedEx aircraft because I'm willing to trade my time, my skills and accepting a fairly large portion of the responsibility in moving an aircraft from A to B in exchange for money. Period. Dot.
Whether or not I get some additional professional satisfaction from the job, delivering the purple promise or enjoy working with my fellow pilots is irrelevant in light of what we're now facing.

Is the media hyping this situation? Probably so. Are the local and international politicians playing a huge game of CYA? You bet they are. But, people transiting China and now other Asian countries are contracting this virus. They're being forced into quarantine and in some cases they're dying. The bottom line is that someone living and working in the US isn't subjected to to the risks that HKG based pilots are. Aside from the risks while we're working and transiting China or deadheading on flights with potential carriers, now we're being denied medical care if we've been in China (our major sort location and the actual hub we fly out of). We're now being told that when we return from flying in and out of China for a week or two that we will be subject to a self-imposed quarantine for two-weeks.

So - here's the deal FedEx: I took this gig because I decided the trade off of my time and offering my skills was worth the paycheck you were offering. I'm not going to put my life or my family member's life at risk out of some sense of duty to the purple promise. Pilots whose families are in theater with little kids at home should be thinking very hard about whether they're even willing to show up for their next trip. If the only reason they're even considering it is because they're on probation, then shame on you FedEx.

If you want your freight moved, then you pay to move it. You offer whatever it takes - check that - much more than it takes to get willing pilots to show up and do the job. You jump through hoops to ensure that every single pilot that flies your aircraft is as protected as they can be. If someone isn't willing to move your freight while risking their own health and that of their families then you let them opt out with no questions asked. Send them back to the US to fly there if you want them gainfully employed for their paycheck. Offer big money to the pilots who are in a position to take the risks that will move your freight. They may not be HKG pilots but maybe they'll come this way and do the job if the price is right.

Just don't expect us to show up for work as if the only thing we need is a mask and some hand sanitizer. I study and prep for recurrent. I make sure I'm as ready as I can be for every revenue flight and I bring my A game. But, this is just a job. I do it for money and time off when I can put some of that money to use. If you want more than that, you'd best be jumping through some serious hoops and not not be stingy with the Benjamins. ALPA - we're not in a kumbaya, give me a BZ and pat on the back mood. Hold the line, get the company to open their wallet wide and stop expecting us to just show up out of a sense of duty.
Just one guy's .02
Rant over.

Merica
02-05-2020, 08:53 AM
Here, here! $25 thermometer reimbursement and hand sanitizer must be good enough for us. So far I have not noticed excessive open time trips to/from/in/around China to deliver much needed humanitarian aids. All appears copacetic. Cough, cough.

skypine27
02-05-2020, 09:50 AM
Going to be hard to layover in TPE after laying over in PVG/CAN .....

https://ops.group/blog/china-coronavirus/

flextodaline
02-06-2020, 10:54 AM
Two things. FedEx is reimbursing for rectal thermometers only, and AbleDrivers most recent post is the second best post I've read all year. Well said!

Timeoff2fish
02-06-2020, 11:13 AM
Safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety.

There. Now we have talked about safety. All is well. Here is some Purell.

Back to work.

Dakota
02-06-2020, 12:11 PM
Two things. FedEx is reimbursing for rectal thermometers only, and AbleDrivers most recent post is the second best post I've read all year. Well said!
I must be missing something. Who is "Abledrivers" and to which post are you referring?

magic rat
02-06-2020, 01:48 PM
Thank you for your posts regarding HKG. Company should man up and go above and beyond to take care of us. This just solidifies my stance on part 117.... Same rules for all. Company don't want it cause it costs money. The world will still spin and our schedules will be fine if we are ALL fall under same rules. If Delta, American, and United can grin and bear it, so can FDX. Cry me a river....

HIFLYR
02-06-2020, 02:02 PM
4989
Hard to believe that we are actually supposed to be happy they are looking into putting water and soap back in the aircraft so we can have basic hygiene. We should have never allowed them to quit, with out a fight.

flextodaline
02-06-2020, 04:22 PM
I must be missing something. Who is "Abledrivers" and to which post are you referring?

spell check...AdlerDriver......sue me....

busdriver12
02-06-2020, 05:24 PM
Thank you for the update, FDXpilot. That sounds like itís getting really bad. I hope everyone can evacuate their families (and not get in trouble for violating any housing stipend agreement).😳

StarClipper
02-06-2020, 06:34 PM
The BIG question is, what if families decide in the interest of safety, they donít feel comfortable going back to HKG?
Would the guys/gals have to pay back the company?

manolo1492
02-06-2020, 06:36 PM
I still love Hong Kong!! Best base ever!!

Kipper
02-07-2020, 11:02 AM
Whatís our union doing about this? Why donít we have a deal like UPS where itís voluntary to go to China and if we do, we get ďChina PayĒ? Why donít we have a union like American has where they say itís too unsafe to send the pilots to China and Hong Kong? How do we get our union to act??

BoilerUP
02-07-2020, 11:14 AM
Will HKG-based FDX crews be subject to the recent 14 day quarantine imposed on people from mainland China?

Timeoff2fish
02-07-2020, 12:55 PM
210 of the 384 regular 777 lines in March touch either CAN, SZX, or PVG. That is 54.7%. I don't know about the other fleets, but obviously the HKG crews are the most affected.


So what is going to happen to a crew member when they have operated into mainland China (some countries are also excluding travelers who have been to Macau or HKG) within the last 14 days and then they are either denied entry or required to go into quarantine by various countries as this outbreak gets worse? Are they, for example, going to be allowed into CGN or CDG? How many trips are going to be disrupted?


The downstream consequences are tremendous. I know that we generate a large amount of revenue in China, but this has the potential to disrupt the entire FedEx system.

flyergurl
02-07-2020, 01:36 PM
If you look at the actual text of the quarantine notice issued in Hong Kong, they have excluded those who are traveling between mainland China and Hong Kong for the purposes of ensuring cargo and freight is moved. So FedEx and UPS pilots could freely cross the border without quarantine, potentially, at this time.

Noworkallplay
02-07-2020, 01:51 PM
I hear a lot of blaming ALPA for the lack of foresight from the company. Its unbelievable how benevolent our pilot group is to our lack of leadership in upper management.

Timeoff2fish
02-07-2020, 02:02 PM
I was talking about the POTENTIAL mess that could happen if the outbreak gets worse and what could happen if various countries initiate a 14 day China transit look-back, even for air crews.

Adlerdriver
02-07-2020, 02:08 PM
If you look at the actual text of the quarantine notice issued in Hong Kong, they have excluded those who are traveling between mainland China and Hong Kong for the purposes of ensuring cargo and freight is moved. So FedEx and UPS pilots could freely cross the border without quarantine, potentially, at this time.
Thereís theory.......see above.
And thereís reality. For that, talk with the crews who are now trying to convince the local version of Barney Fife theyíre supposed to be exempt.

Merica
02-07-2020, 02:24 PM
But the company read file had that bullet in bold font so the aircrew exemption would be noticed by all. So that with 3 masks daily and hand sanitizer makes everything A-OK.

Hey ALPA.... what's the deal!?!

Adlerdriver
02-07-2020, 02:46 PM
I hear a lot of blaming ALPA for the lack of foresight from the company. Its unbelievable how benevolent our pilot group is to our lack of leadership in upper management.
ALPA is being blamed for lack of communication, not managementís failings. Iíll bet they could nudge management in the right direction with a threat to withhold services... a threat they (we) actually mean. Weíll see.
Regardless, we got this. You can go back to your reserve and standby periods at home.

Kipper
02-07-2020, 02:59 PM
But the company read file had that bullet in bold font so the aircrew exemption would be noticed by all. So that with 3 masks daily and hand sanitizer makes everything A-OK.

Hey ALPA.... what's the deal!?!


The latest Iíve seen from management says company policy is 2 masks per day! And these are single use masks.

There is so much happening to our crews all over Asia and none of it is good.

We file reports to the company and to the union regarding concern for our health and safety and as long as the freight keeps moving thatís all that seems to matter.

Please submit insite reports and PDRs so at least there is documentation.

StarClipper
02-07-2020, 03:22 PM
Keep all this in mind during next contract negotiation.

Essential Pay/Compensation For Essential Employees.

Higher Pay Rates
Improved A Plan
Improve B Plan
Profit Sharing
Paying Less For Global Health Insurance
Easier Expense Report
Rolling 365 Days Deviation Bank With Realtime View
200% Pay During Operational Emergency
Night Pay
Hazardous Duty Pay


And the list goes on.

Noworkallplay
02-07-2020, 05:11 PM
ALPA is being blamed for lack of communication, not managementís failings. Iíll bet they could nudge management in the right direction with a threat to withhold services... a threat they (we) actually mean. Weíll see.
Regardless, we got this. You can go back to your reserve and standby periods at home.

I actually agree with a lot of what you post in the past. 117 and this corona issue we differ. I am so feed up with our pilot group thinking ALPA runs the company and operation.

The union has put out comms daily and just tonight another email stating they are still in talks on what appears to be an agreement to resolve a lot of these issues. Remember they cant force the company to agree.

If your fatigued due to bad hotels and sleep then call out fatigued. If a flight is unsafe then man up and use your PIC authority to not operate due to safety concerns. If your sick then call out sick. A big portion of our pilot group does none of the above with the expectation that someone else should do it for them. We blame company issues on ALPA as if they run the operations.

Im not an ALPA cheerleader but I darn well realize that those guys/gals are line pilots just like us. What do you think this place would look like if we didn't have pilots representing pilots?

Lets grow up and start unifying and point the finger towards the proper perpetrators.

Noworkallplay
02-07-2020, 05:14 PM
Keep all this in mind during next contract negotiation.

Essential Pay/Compensation For Essential Employees.

Higher Pay Rates
Improved A Plan
Improve B Plan
Profit Sharing
Paying Less For Global Health Insurance
Easier Expense Report
Rolling 365 Days Deviation Bank With Realtime View
200% Pay During Operational Emergency
Night Pay
Hazardous Duty Pay


And the list goes on.

Excellent post and list! Our pilots are the front end employees that get the job done day/night all around the world 365 days a year. Time for management to pay us as such.

Adlerdriver
02-07-2020, 06:29 PM
I actually agree with a lot of what you post in the past. 117 and this corona issue we differ. I am so feed up with our pilot group thinking ALPA runs the company and operation. You spend a fair amount of text in your posts making general statements and lecturing us about what you don't like about FedEx or our pilot group or someone who insulted your sensibilities because they didn't value your new guy opinion. Other than vent whatever you have pent up, what are you hoping to accomplish with vague generalities. I don't think ALPA runs the company. The pilots I work with out on the line don't either. If you're basing your opinion of FedEx on APC, maybe that's the problem. You've been here what? a little over two years? And according to you, the sum total of your line experience in 2019 was 61.2 block hours. That's a little over a month of flying for some of us. So, is it possible you don't quite have as accurate picture of the FedEx pilot group as you seem to think?

The union has put out comms daily and just tonight another email stating they are still in talks on what appears to be an agreement to resolve a lot of these issues. Remember they cant force the company to agree. Yes - the union put out another soothing email lacking specifics. How about telling us what their proposal is for a start? This isn't section 6 negotiations with rules of disclosure, etc. Give us information. What are their demands? Yes, they can't force the company to do anything. However, they could inform the company that until a workable solution is available to address the rapidly changing situation, the members of our pilot group, represented by ALPA are going to refuse any flight assignment that takes off or lands in mainland China. I bet that would get their attention. You think UPS got at least a move in the right direction by their management by the middle of THIS PAST WEEK by asking nicely? ALPA is supposed to be there to back us up. If there was ever a time we needed it, it's now. Asking each pilot to make individual, potentially career impacting decisions from remote locations with partial or inaccurate information is not a good plan. It's a lot easier to refuse an assignment and halt the operation when every single one of us knows the union has already approved that action and will back us 100%.
Once the scale of this event was realized, the brakes should have been stomped on. It's unacceptable that we have had pilots flying in and out of China for weeks with no idea what is going to change from potentially one flight or layover to the next. ALPA can't control any of that or the company's response, but they can make the music stop until it's safe to continue and our pilot's aren't being subjected to the daily whims of the various governments involved. The expectation that flights in and out of China should and will continue because the company obviously wants them to is the main source of the problem. We're expected to just show up as we always do, business as usual and our ALPA leadership has played a part in perpetuating that expectation.

If your fatigued due to bad hotels and sleep then call out fatigued. If a flight is unsafe then man up and use your PIC authority to not operate due to safety concerns. If your sick then call out sick. A big portion of our pilot group does none of the above with the expectation that someone else should do it for them. We blame company issues on ALPA as if they run the operations.Thanks for the advice. I know how to handle hotel or safety concerns and I'm not expecting anyone else to do it for me. Those are issues we're all prepared to deal with every time we fly. This is a much bigger issue than individual crew and PIC safety evaluations and fatigue calls.

Im not an ALPA cheerleader but I darn well realize that those guys/gals are line pilots just like us. What do you think this place would look like if we didn't have pilots representing pilots?

Lets grow up and start unifying and point the finger towards the proper perpetrators. Grow up? Wouldn't be a complete post from you without a little lecture to us all. Thanks. I understand the value of a union. I've worked in several pilot groups represented by them. I've seen them lead well and not so well. I'm not advocating ever not having one - they're a necessity in this business. These are extraordinary times that call for unconventional methods and union leadership and yes, unity. That starts with clear communication and leadership from the top. So far I'm not seeing that.

Kipper
02-07-2020, 07:22 PM
You spend a fair amount of text in your posts making general statements and lecturing us about what you don't like about FedEx or our pilot group or someone who insulted your sensibilities because they didn't value your new guy opinion. Other than vent whatever you have pent up, what are you hoping to accomplish with vague generalities. I don't think ALPA runs the company. The pilots I work with out on the line don't either. If you're basing your opinion of FedEx on APC, maybe that's the problem. You've been here what? a little over two years? And according to you, the sum total of your line experience in 2019 was 61.2 block hours. That's a little over a month of flying for some of us. So, is it possible you don't quite have as accurate picture of the FedEx pilot group as you seem to think?

Yes - the union put out another soothing email lacking specifics. How about telling us what their proposal is for a start? This isn't section 6 negotiations with rules of disclosure, etc. Give us information. What are their demands? Yes, they can't force the company to do anything. However, they could inform the company that until a workable solution is available to address the rapidly changing situation, the members of our pilot group, represented by ALPA are going to refuse any flight assignment that takes off or lands in mainland China. I bet that would get their attention. You think UPS got at least a move in the right direction by their management by the middle of THIS PAST WEEK by asking nicely? ALPA is supposed to be there to back us up. If there was ever a time we needed it, it's now. Asking each pilot to make individual, potentially career impacting decisions from remote locations with partial or inaccurate information is not a good plan. It's a lot easier to refuse an assignment and halt the operation when every single one of us knows the union has already approved that action and will back us 100%.
Once the scale of this event was realized, the brakes should have been stomped on. It's unacceptable that we have had pilots flying in and out of China for weeks with no idea what is going to change from potentially one flight or layover to the next. ALPA can't control any of that or the company's response, but they can make the music stop until it's safe to continue and our pilot's aren't being subjected to the daily whims of the various governments involved. The expectation that flights in and out of China should and will continue because the company obviously wants them to is the main source of the problem. We're expected to just show up as we always do, business as usual and our ALPA leadership has played a part in perpetuating that expectation.

Thanks for the advice. I know how to handle hotel or safety concerns and I'm not expecting anyone else to do it for me. Those are issues we're all prepared to deal with every time we fly. This is a much bigger issue than individual crew and PIC safety evaluations and fatigue calls.

Grow up? Wouldn't be a complete post from you without a little lecture to us all. Thanks. I understand the value of a union. I've worked in several pilot groups represented by them. I've seen them lead well and not so well. I'm not advocating ever not having one - they're a necessity in this business. These are extraordinary times that call for unconventional methods and union leadership and yes, unity. That starts with clear communication and leadership from the top. So far I'm not seeing that.



Exactly. Thanks for taking the time to post. Well said and spot on.

Shaman
02-08-2020, 05:57 AM
Thing that leaves me befuddled is what happens if one of our crewmembers actually contracts this thing. Is the company really that ready to flush every bit of goodwill down that toilet in an effort to maintain normal ops? My crystal ball is broken but i don't see any favorable outcomes if that happens.

It will turn that whole people, profits, rhetoric upside down and inside out.

Miso
02-08-2020, 06:01 AM
Are the ďmasksĒ being issued to crew members N95 respirators or basic surgical masks?

FXLAX
02-08-2020, 07:16 AM
You spend a fair amount of text in your posts making general statements and lecturing us about what you don't like about FedEx or our pilot group or someone who insulted your sensibilities because they didn't value your new guy opinion. Other than vent whatever you have pent up, what are you hoping to accomplish with vague generalities. I don't think ALPA runs the company. The pilots I work with out on the line don't either. If you're basing your opinion of FedEx on APC, maybe that's the problem. You've been here what? a little over two years? And according to you, the sum total of your line experience in 2019 was 61.2 block hours. That's a little over a month of flying for some of us. So, is it possible you don't quite have as accurate picture of the FedEx pilot group as you seem to think?



Yes - the union put out another soothing email lacking specifics. How about telling us what their proposal is for a start? This isn't section 6 negotiations with rules of disclosure, etc. Give us information. What are their demands? Yes, they can't force the company to do anything. However, they could inform the company that until a workable solution is available to address the rapidly changing situation, the members of our pilot group, represented by ALPA are going to refuse any flight assignment that takes off or lands in mainland China. I bet that would get their attention. You think UPS got at least a move in the right direction by their management by the middle of THIS PAST WEEK by asking nicely? ALPA is supposed to be there to back us up. If there was ever a time we needed it, it's now. Asking each pilot to make individual, potentially career impacting decisions from remote locations with partial or inaccurate information is not a good plan. It's a lot easier to refuse an assignment and halt the operation when every single one of us knows the union has already approved that action and will back us 100%.

Once the scale of this event was realized, the brakes should have been stomped on. It's unacceptable that we have had pilots flying in and out of China for weeks with no idea what is going to change from potentially one flight or layover to the next. ALPA can't control any of that or the company's response, but they can make the music stop until it's safe to continue and our pilot's aren't being subjected to the daily whims of the various governments involved. The expectation that flights in and out of China should and will continue because the company obviously wants them to is the main source of the problem. We're expected to just show up as we always do, business as usual and our ALPA leadership has played a part in perpetuating that expectation.



Thanks for the advice. I know how to handle hotel or safety concerns and I'm not expecting anyone else to do it for me. Those are issues we're all prepared to deal with every time we fly. This is a much bigger issue than individual crew and PIC safety evaluations and fatigue calls.



Grow up? Wouldn't be a complete post from you without a little lecture to us all. Thanks. I understand the value of a union. I've worked in several pilot groups represented by them. I've seen them lead well and not so well. I'm not advocating ever not having one - they're a necessity in this business. These are extraordinary times that call for unconventional methods and union leadership and yes, unity. That starts with clear communication and leadership from the top. So far I'm not seeing that.


Management would LOVE it if ALPA threatened the operation...they would LOVE nothing less than that. Because then they would have all they need to get a federal court order to pay out millions in fines when some pilots do decide to set the brake.

As of now, if you itís not safe, then itís another PIC call. But once Alpa has made the threat to management, itís an illegal work action with actual proof to show a judge.

How often to operational emergencies happen? How often to pandemics happen? Well, use your PIC authority in those rare circumstances itís needed. We donít need our MEC to put our whole union in danger (like APA did years ago) because you donít want to have the burden of using your PIC authority to set the brake.

With that said, I completely support the idea of getting something like the IPA got. But not at the expense of our union. The only reason I make a big deal about YOUR captain authority is because itís the same exact argument you make against 117. We donít need new rules for something that doesnít happen very often. The time between these viruses is 17 years, a lot less than weather related operational emergencies. You say you can deal with calling in fatigue for those. Well, use that same authority for this.

I hope you guys get some reprieve. Just as I support the idea of not having to use your pic authority, even if itís for rare circumstances, there should be rules for these types of things nonetheless, 117 and pandemics. Precisely we donít find yourself in the situation you are in now, where on the one hand you are being ďforcedĒ to operate when you rather not and therefore feel the pressure of having to use your authority and putting a target on yourself. Itís always an easy call to make so it shouldnít be a call you need to make.

Adlerdriver
02-08-2020, 07:37 AM
Management would LOVE it if ALPA threatened the operation...they would LOVE nothing less than that. Because then they would have all they need to get a federal court order to pay out millions in fines when some pilots do decide to set the brake.

As of now, if you itís not safe, then itís another PIC call. But once Alpa has made the threat to management, itís an illegal work action with actual proof to show a judge. You don't seem to understand the difference between an illegal job action in violation of status quo during section 6 negotiations (which is what you're talking about) and a union supported safety issue when our members are being pushed to work in conditions that are unsafe. That's the whole reason ALPA came into existence in the first place. There's no law against a union supporting it's members in refusing to fly under conditions that clearly violate basic safety practices and put those members at risk, either immediate or later when they are refused basic medical care due to quarantine restrictions.

Fdxlag2
02-08-2020, 07:45 AM
You don't seem to understand the difference between an illegal job action in violation of status quo during section 6 negotiations (which is what you're talking about) and a union supported safety issue when our members are being pushed to work in conditions that are unsafe. That's the whole reason ALPA came into existence in the first place. There's no law against a union supporting it's members in refusing to fly under conditions that clearly violate basic safety practices and put those members at risk, either immediate or later when they are refused basic medical care due to quarantine restrictions.

Or complying with CDC and immigration guidelines.

Sluggo_63
02-08-2020, 08:47 AM
. . . and a union supported safety issue when our members are being pushed to work in conditions that are unsafe.Flying fatigued isn't unsafe?

C17B74
02-08-2020, 09:14 AM
Keep going, uncomfortable situation/facts. More info you bring and execute the better for other pilot groups to draw from.
Appreciate the coming to Jesus meeting as it is highlighting a few options.

HIFLYR
02-08-2020, 09:33 AM
One of the questions the company needs to answer regarding the new border checks between HK and mainland China is what of a CM tests postive and is not allowed into HK. What kind of care and support has the company PREARRANGED in case this happens or are you left to fend for yourself with a epidemic going on?

Noworkallplay
02-08-2020, 12:56 PM
You don't seem to understand the difference between an illegal job action in violation of status quo during section 6 negotiations (which is what you're talking about) and a union supported safety issue when our members are being pushed to work in conditions that are unsafe. That's the whole reason ALPA came into existence in the first place. There's no law against a union supporting it's members in refusing to fly under conditions that clearly violate basic safety practices and put those members at risk, either immediate or later when they are refused basic medical care due to quarantine restrictions.

The union already put out a comm that they were being briefed by National on legal action when and if it was needed on Tuesday. Remember APA filed a TRO in a local state court because their chairman sent a comm to their pilots to not fly to China (Illegal job action). Management threatened a law suit so the next day APA filed the suit. Luckily for them all the passenger airlines got together and decided to shut down ops the next day. Call it saved by the bell otherwise APA would have had another huge lawsuit on its hands. I think the last lawsuit cost APA 45million for the illegal slowdown 7 or so years ago.

Its pretty hard for FDX ALPA to file a lawsuit when all the CDC and State Department restrictions specifically have a "Cargo Cut Out". Are you seeing the light why the 117 "Cargo Cutout" is bad and why you cant constantly say "oh we are different". I would say this situation was perfect timing to adjust your thinking with being cool with FDX being carved out of 117.

Adlerdriver
02-08-2020, 03:31 PM
Are you seeing the light why the 117 "Cargo Cutout" is bad and why you cant constantly say "oh we are different". I would say this situation was perfect timing to adjust your thinking with being cool with FDX being carved out of 117. Nice try, but that cut-out would still be in place even if we already were under 117. No one wants to halt the movement of critical goods and itís being argued cargo is essential to moving necessary goods to combat the outbreak and maintain economic stability. That has nothing to do with 117 rest requirements.

Slatsextend
02-08-2020, 03:54 PM
Safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety safety.

There. Now we have talked about safety. All is well. Here is some Purell.

Back to work.

Of course, we all know what it really means ................

HIFLYR
02-08-2020, 04:10 PM
Interesting FCIF and Email from company. FCIF was deleted in a few minutes. The email says the Union and company had negotiated a settlement like the UPS one. You dont have to go to China and if you do its draft

StarClipper
02-08-2020, 04:55 PM
Interesting FCIF and Email from company. FCIF was deleted in a few minutes. The email says the Union and company had negotiated a settlement like the UPS one. You dont have to go to China and if you do its draft


ALPA sent out an email with details

jkjfm1
02-08-2020, 05:41 PM
It’s not draft. 3 CH if you pass thru China. 4.5 CH if you layover. Hong Kong and Taiwan not included.

HIFLYR
02-08-2020, 05:44 PM
Itís not draft. 3 CH if you pass thru China. 4.5 CH if you layover. Hong Kong and Taiwan not included.

well thatís disappointing

wrxpilot
02-08-2020, 05:51 PM
Itís not draft. 3 CH if you pass thru China. 4.5 CH if you layover. Hong Kong and Taiwan not included.

3 CH for every time you pass through China, including any DH transportation.

Why would HKG or Taiwan be included?

jkjfm1
02-08-2020, 06:00 PM
3 CH for every time you pass through China, including any DH transportation.

Why would HKG or Taiwan be included?
The LOA stated that Hong Kong and Taiwan were not included in the agreement. Just passing it on.

Adlerdriver
02-08-2020, 06:02 PM
Itís not draft. 3 CH if you pass thru China. 4.5 CH if you layover. Hong Kong and Taiwan not included. It's a 777 agreement. There are 5 trips in the entire Feb bidpack for HKG that don't touch China. So if HKG based pilots don't want to fly to China, most aren't going to get paid. March has 2 pairings that occur a total of 9 times.

MEMA300
02-08-2020, 06:27 PM
Good job ALPA. Why not use IPA agreement as the bar.

StarClipper
02-08-2020, 06:43 PM
In the Union defense, how are we supposed to get a better deal when guys rushing to pick up trip in OT all of which going through or laying over in China? The company could have offer half pay and guys would still take it. What a bunch of independent contractors.
Why would anyone pick up a trip that going through China in those time? I understand if you fly your schedule trip or got revised, but to grab it from OT is crazy.

Fdxlag2
02-08-2020, 07:35 PM
Good job ALPA. Why not use IPA agreement as the bar.

My understanding is UPS pilots get nothing extra if the trip is on their line. Only volunteers get the bonus. I think ours everyone gets.

kwri10s
02-08-2020, 10:06 PM
The letter says if we are quarantined somewhere our status is changed to NOQ. What does that mean for pay? Sounds like you are no longer on a trip correct? If I get quarantined in Singapore for 14 days I don’t get paid? We also lose CAAS NOQ if I remember right?

Sluggo_63
02-09-2020, 06:13 AM
The letter says if we are quarantined somewhere our status is changed to NOQ. What does that mean for pay? Sounds like you are no longer on a trip correct? If I get quarantined in Singapore for 14 days I donít get paid? We also lose CAAS NOQ if I remember right?
I think NOQ is Not Operationally Qualified with pay.
I think NQN is Not Operationally Qualified with No pay.

I could be wrong though. I couldnít find that written.

KnightFlyer
02-09-2020, 09:00 AM
Once NOQ, have to go thru Harvey Watt to get reinstated. Canít bid. Enjoy custom line and A reserve when you are cleared.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sluggo_63
02-09-2020, 09:26 AM
Once NOQ, have to go thru Harvey Watt to get reinstated. Canít bid. Enjoy custom line and A reserve when you are cleared.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Where is that written?

Canít you be NOQ for expiring on landings?

MEMA300
02-09-2020, 12:39 PM
Getting this corona virus while at work should not cost a crewmember a dime of sick leave, dsa etc. Should be a workmans comp type status. Sorry but I think this deal sucks.

Timeoff2fish
02-09-2020, 12:40 PM
Another nugget:

If you are in the field and get revised to fly into China you have no recourse. Once you check in you are cannon fodder.

Ask the people currently in Asia how many trip revisions are going on. This is not the same as declining SUB.

So even if you bid around/opt out of China flying you will probably still wind up there, albeit with your extra 4.5 hours and a free thermometer.

bleedairpacks
02-09-2020, 01:04 PM
Made many landings into Kai Tak and wasn't battling an outbreak. Prayers to you all doing those flights!

kronan
02-09-2020, 01:48 PM
Getting this corona virus while at work should not cost a crewmember a dime of sick leave, dsa etc. Should be a workmans comp type status. Sorry but I think this deal sucks.

Then it's a great thing that if you get the corona virus that your RSA\DSA are reimbursed.

Oh wait, that's on Page 2 of the agreement and ain't nobody got time to read that far

Hater
02-09-2020, 02:05 PM
Iím on my second pairing with China layovers within 2 weeks. 4.5 hours (per layover not day) is not enough for the hotel (http://i.viglink.com/?key=481c1e0bb7406ee862f1f8858ec6342e&insertId=c33c51baaa316ac3&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k6fmgiol0100a0tt000TA84omhd13&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fnew reply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26noquote%3D1%26p%3D2973 895&v=1&iid=c33c51baaa316ac3&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.booking.com%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Ffed ex%2F127198-what-hkg-based-guys-saying-7.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=%3Cspan%3Ehotel%3C%2Fspan%3E) conditions and extra steps you have to go through. Not to mention the company is short on the N95 masks and are now handing out the cheap masks the locals wear. Multiple people are getting revised and deadheaded on Chinese airlines. I wonít be doing anymore China flying after this. The stress and risk are not worth the little bit of extra pay.

Thrust Hold
02-09-2020, 02:17 PM
Then it's a great thing that if you get the corona virus that your RSA\DSA are reimbursed.

Oh wait, that's on Page 2 of the agreement and ain't nobody got time to read that far

But everybody wants to quote their second hand source on how much better the UPS LOA is without having read that either. :D

We'll see if they change their mind after reading both agreements.

Timeoff2fish
02-09-2020, 02:24 PM
Iím on my second pairing with China layovers within 2 weeks. 4.5 hours (per layover not day) is not enough for the hotel (http://i.viglink.com/?key=481c1e0bb7406ee862f1f8858ec6342e&insertId=c33c51baaa316ac3&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k6fmgiol0100a0tt000TA84omhd13&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fnew reply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26noquote%3D1%26p%3D2973 895&v=1&iid=c33c51baaa316ac3&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.booking.com%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Ffed ex%2F127198-what-hkg-based-guys-saying-7.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=%3Cspan%3Ehotel%3C%2Fspan%3E) conditions and extra steps you have to go through. Not to mention the company is short on the N95 masks and are now handing out the cheap masks the locals wear. Multiple people are getting revised and deadheaded on Chinese airlines. I wonít be doing anymore China flying after this. The stress and risk are not worth the little bit of extra pay.


How can we be short of N95 masks?

I was told we were leading the humanitarian aid effort into China... right?

Or is there another reason why we continue to fly into China? Or more importantly, out of China?

I just got an email from the nurse at my kidís school that I have to inform them that I have traveled to mainland China. No word yet on what will come from that. This could get interesting and not in a good way.

Noworkallplay
02-09-2020, 03:34 PM
I think NOQ is Not Operationally Qualified with pay.
I think NQN is Not Operationally Qualified with No pay.

I could be wrong though. I couldnít find that written.

you are correct slugo. Its paid leave and doesn't come out of your dsa/rsa

Noworkallplay
02-09-2020, 03:38 PM
In the Union defense, how are we supposed to get a better deal when guys rushing to pick up trip in OT all of which going through or laying over in China? The company could have offer half pay and guys would still take it. What a bunch of independent contractors.
Why would anyone pick up a trip that going through China in those time? I understand if you fly your schedule trip or got revised, but to grab it from OT is crazy.

Oh say it ain't so. Don't tell our big mouth and little action sector of our pilot group the truth. They scream ďTHIS IS A SHAME WE DONT HAVE AN AGREEMENT LIKE UPSĒ. As they trip over each other to fly straight pay China trips. Then we get a deal much better than UPS and they still cry. And they want to be taken seriously haha

MEMA300
02-09-2020, 04:17 PM
Then it's a great thing that if you get the corona virus that your RSA\DSA are reimbursed.

Oh wait, that's on Page 2 of the agreement and ain't nobody got time to read that far


thanks for reading it for me. the devil is in the details. I stand corrected. Thanks

stevenscreek
02-09-2020, 05:37 PM
I just got an email from the nurse at my kidís school that I have to inform them that I have traveled to mainland China. No word yet on what will come from that. This could get interesting and not in a good way.


Is that even legal for the nurse to request that information? Not certain but I think I would call the Union and Legal at the company. That is very scary. U can easily imagine some uninformed bureaucrat at the local school, drunk on their own power, over reacting and your kids become persona bon grata.
My first Memphis experience with this irrational fear came last night. I was at the bar talking to the couple next to me. During our conversation it came out that I had recently been through China. The wife stood up and declared ďI am out of here, you should not be here.Ē and left the restaurant. The husband looked at me, apologized, paid his bill and walked out....
The longer this goes on, we are going to be surprised by the repercussions.... everyone is going to feel the effects.

The Walrus
02-09-2020, 05:47 PM
What part of self quarantine do you not understand?

stevenscreek
02-09-2020, 07:30 PM
I am referring to the over reaction to the threat. As far as self quarantine, it has been 14 days since I was last in China AND when I came back the self Quarantine issue had not been promulgated.

HIFLYR
02-10-2020, 05:42 AM
What part of self quarantine do you not understand?

i reread the FCIF and unless I missed it again no requirement to ďself quarantineĒ just monitor your temperature and health.

MEMA300
02-10-2020, 12:12 PM
My wife put me in quarantine years ago.

2dogs
02-11-2020, 03:15 PM
They (FEDEX) just don't pay me enough to go through this A$$ pain. So glad I didn't upgrade.........gotta love seniority.

Hose11
02-16-2020, 03:54 AM
Any of the HKG guys have an update on conditions over there? Is the Co stepping up at all?