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View Full Version : Latam's A350s


firstmob
02-11-2020, 06:52 AM
I know we are scheduled to get 4 used A350s from Latam 2 late this year and 2 early next year we also got rights to their 10 A350 orders of which 8 I believe are 350-1000s. Question is will we take the 1000s or convert them to the 900?


Han Solo
02-11-2020, 06:54 AM
I know we are scheduled to get 4 used A350s from Latam 2 late this year and 2 early next year we also got rights to their 10 A350 orders of which 8 I believe are 350-1000s. Question is will we take the 1000s or convert them to the 900?
Because this is a place where you'll get a reliable and accurate answer.

RamenNoodles
02-11-2020, 07:08 AM
With Deltas aversion to anything over 300 seats, its probably a safe bet that it will be the -900.

The -1000 does have more range, which could make it a suitable 777 replacement for SYD and JNB. Its massive though, so Id be surprised if we went that route.


Dstblj52
02-11-2020, 07:10 AM
With Deltas aversion to anything over 300 seats, its probably a safe bet that it will be the -900.

The -1000 does have more range, which could make it a suitable 777 replacement for SYD and JNB. Its massive though, so Id be surprised if we went that route.
We also don't it know what the conversion rights and penalties in the latam contract are

Tinpusher007
02-11-2020, 07:21 AM
I would think the 900ULR might be more likely as a suitable replacement for the 777-200LR.

GogglesPisano
02-11-2020, 07:26 AM
Because this is a place where you'll get a reliable and accurate answer.

:p Come on! We all know were going to get 787s.

And flat screens for the ERs.

Han Solo
02-11-2020, 07:30 AM
:p Come on! We all know were going to get 787s.

And flat screens for the ERs.

Don't forget RNP, CPDLC, and in-seat entertainment on the 717 which we're keeping for 10 years unless we get rid of them in 4. This thread is mental masturbation; anybody who would post something here is offering nothing more than an uneducated guess, anybody who is actually in the know wouldn't post Delta's fleet strategy here, and even with the best of intentions today's strategy likely won't be the same strategy in 3 weeks let alone when the decision regarding the LATAM 350s is executed.

FL370esq
02-11-2020, 07:33 AM
I would think the 900ULR might be more likely as a suitable replacement for the 777-200LR.

Why would you say that? The 350-900ULR variant is only operated by Singapore Airlines, the forward cargo door is deactivated and it only seats 163 passengers. Not even close to a suitable replacement for the B777-200LR.

GogglesPisano
02-11-2020, 07:36 AM
Cue, I heard it from a LCA, in 3 ... 2 .... 1 ....

notEnuf
02-11-2020, 08:03 AM
Don't forget RNP, CPDLC, and in-seat entertainment on the 717 which we're keeping for 10 years unless we get rid of them in 4. This thread is mental masturbation; anybody who would post something here is offering nothing more than an uneducated guess, anybody who is actually in the know wouldn't post Delta's fleet strategy here, and even with the best of intentions today's strategy likely won't be the same strategy in 3 weeks let alone when the decision regarding the LATAM 350s is executed.

Blue! Is the answer Blue? No, ummm ...12. 12, definately 12, maybe. Orrrrr... is it Thursday?

forgot to bid
02-11-2020, 08:56 AM
Why would you say that? The 350-900ULR variant is only operated by Singapore Airlines, the forward cargo door is deactivated and it only seats 163 passengers. Not even close to a suitable replacement for the B777-200LR.

but that Singapore flight is 18.5 hours, I'm guessing if it flew shorter itd carry more. I assume.

Dstblj52
02-11-2020, 09:10 AM
Don't forget RNP, CPDLC, and in-seat entertainment on the 717 which we're keeping for 10 years unless we get rid of them in 4. This thread is mental masturbation; anybody who would post something here is offering nothing more than an uneducated guess, anybody who is actually in the know wouldn't post Delta's fleet strategy here, and even with the best of intentions today's strategy likely won't be the same strategy in 3 weeks let alone when the decision regarding the LATAM 350s is executed.
we know delta is keeping 717 until they have at least 88 A220-100 on order because if they don't they have to ground up to 70 76 seater RJ (Contract 2012), unless they place an order for e-190/195 or the E2 variant

FL370esq
02-11-2020, 09:24 AM
but that Singapore flight is 18.5 hours, I'm guessing if it flew shorter itd carry more. I assume.

Again, the ULR is only flown by Singapore Airlines for a very specific high-yield route (which is how they can do so with only 163 seats and no operable fwd cargo compartment). It would be a waste of Delta's money to buy that variant. Yes, Airbus captured more fuel by re-piping the standard A350-900 fuel tanks for the ULR variant but holding more fuel is not our issue.

Our A350s can hold 240k+ of fuel but when our 350s leave DTW for PVG or ATL for ICN, they are bumping up against max ramp/takeoff weights with a 200k-210k fuel load which means there is 30k-40k of fuel upload capability not being used. The last 350 delivered to us and the "last" two of our firm order all have an increased MTOW that gave them an 11k bump over the first 12 planes but we would need another 20k-30k bump in MTOW to be able to fully fill the tanks and the cabin/cargo. Till that happens, the ULR is of no use to us.

Lifeisgood
02-15-2020, 03:08 PM
I know we are scheduled to get 4 used A350s from Latam 2 late this year and 2 early next year we also got rights to their 10 A350 orders of which 8 I believe are 350-1000s. Question is will we take the 1000s or convert them to the 900?
From CB:
4 used that are at latam now will come to Delta this year. They are already scheduled to be pulled from their fleet and to go to Delta remodeling/paint. I heard they should be on property in the 3Q and network already worked them into our schedule.

2 used latam owned, but in leasing to Em-rats, coming to Delta 2Q 2021.

8 new to be build for latam coming to Delta in 21-23. -1000 on paper, renegotiated to -900s.

Add Delta original #14 and #15 this march, slight delay due to tariffs.

Big E 757
02-15-2020, 04:39 PM
From CB:
4 used that are at latam now will come to Delta this year. They are already scheduled to be pulled from their fleet and to go to Delta remodeling/paint. I heard they should be on property in the 3Q and network already worked them into our schedule.

2 used latam owned, but in leasing to Em-rats, coming to Delta 2Q 2021.

8 new to be build for latam coming to Delta in 21-23. -1000 on paper, renegotiated to -900s.

Add Delta original #14 and #15 this march, slight delay due to tariffs.

So according to this, we are getting 6 from LATAM by summer 2001, and 8 orders for new ones....I thought we were getting 4 used+10 new. Interesting.

DELTAFO
02-16-2020, 04:45 AM
From CB:
4 used that are at latam now will come to Delta this year. They are already scheduled to be pulled from their fleet and to go to Delta remodeling/paint. I heard they should be on property in the 3Q and network already worked them into our schedule.

2 used latam owned, but in leasing to Em-rats, coming to Delta 2Q 2021.

8 new to be build for latam coming to Delta in 21-23. -1000 on paper, renegotiated to -900s.

Add Delta original #14 and #15 this march, slight delay due to tariffs.
Source please.

Scooter432
02-17-2020, 05:44 AM
Just had the 350 fleet captain on the jumpseat. Network has still not decided on the 900 vs 1000 for the future deliveries yet.

firstmob
02-17-2020, 07:20 AM
So according to this, we are getting 6 from LATAM by summer 2001, and 8 orders for new ones....I thought we were getting 4 used+10 new. Interesting.
Would be nice but I don't think this is the way it will play out.

Tinpusher007
02-17-2020, 07:56 AM
Why would you say that? The 350-900ULR variant is only operated by Singapore Airlines, the forward cargo door is deactivated and it only seats 163 passengers. Not even close to a suitable replacement for the B777-200LR.
I would say it because Ryan Gumm did make a brief mention of it at the flt ops mgt meeting that I attended. And as has been mentioned, Delta seems to have an aversion to any aircraft over 300 seats. Also the A350-900ULR is not limited to 163 seats, thats simply how many SQ decided to put in theirs, consisting of only business and premium economy seats but it is certainly capable of carrying more pax. Apparently our 3 longest range routes LAX-SYD, ATL-JNB and JFK-BOM (all of which are shorter than LAX/EWR-SIN) require the performance of the 777-200LR. If we are to eventually replace the 777s with an aircraft of similar size, the A359ULR would seem a plausible choice.

Tinpusher007
02-17-2020, 08:14 AM
Our A350s can hold 240k+ of fuel but when our 350s leave DTW for PVG or ATL for ICN, they are bumping up against max ramp/takeoff weights with a 200k-210k fuel load which means there is 30k-40k of fuel upload capability not being used. The last 350 delivered to us and the "last" two of our firm order all have an increased MTOW that gave them an 11k bump over the first 12 planes but we would need another 20k-30k bump in MTOW to be able to fully fill the tanks and the cabin/cargo. Till that happens, the ULR is of no use to us.

I've heard something to this effect before. Can you elaborate a little more? I had also heard that a few copies we got after the first 5 or so came with a new twisted wing and bigger sharklets that gave better performance. With the weights, is that something a structural thing with the airplane itself or something that Airbus offers at a cost that we dont want to pay? All this talk of performance issues for a brand new airplane that is designed to replace 777s and compete with the 787 doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me and is uncharacteristic of Airbus.

DenVa
02-17-2020, 10:02 AM
I wonder if AAs push into SEA will have an impact on what they take? Or maybe we will JV a new SEA BLR route to compete non stop.

FL370esq
02-17-2020, 10:07 AM
I would say it because Ryan Gumm did make a brief mention of it at the flt ops mgt meeting that I attended. And as has been mentioned, Delta seems to have an aversion to any aircraft over 300 seats. Also the A350-900ULR is not limited to 163 seats, thats simply how many SQ decided to put in theirs, consisting of only business and premium economy seats but it is certainly capable of carrying more pax. Apparently our 3 longest range routes LAX-SYD, ATL-JNB and JFK-BOM (all of which are shorter than LAX/EWR-SIN) require the performance of the 777-200LR. If we are to eventually replace the 777s with an aircraft of similar size, the A359ULR would seem a plausible choice.

I don't think you are getting it. The ULR only makes sense if you need more gas. Our 350s (even Ship 13 with the increased MTOGW) cannot fill the tanks they already have.. To buy the ULR variant is a waste of $$ because instead of 30-40k in unused fuel capacity, now you have 50-60k in unused capacity. It is a gross weight issue, not a fuel issue. Until Airbus engineering beefs up the MTOGW (maybe they can or maybe Ships 13-15 are at the max for their design), the ULR does Delta no good because its MTOGW is the same as ships 13-15. Further, it has its fwd cargo door deactivated to help it get that extra range. If you "de-activate" the door, it is just another -900 with a little more fuel capacity.

Tinpusher007
02-17-2020, 10:33 AM
I don't think you are getting it. The ULR only makes sense if you need more gas. Our 350s (even Ship 13 with the increased MTOGW) cannot fill the tanks they already have.. To buy the ULR variant is a waste of $$ because instead of 30-40k in unused fuel capacity, now you have 50-60k in unused capacity. It is a gross weight issue, not a fuel issue. Until Airbus engineering beefs up the MTOGW (maybe they can or maybe Ships 13-15 are at the max for their design), the ULR does Delta no good because its MTOGW is the same as ships 13-15. Further, it has its fwd cargo door deactivated to help it get that extra range. If you "de-activate" the door, it is just another -900 with a little more fuel capacity.
To your knowledge, is that possible? It would seem silly that Airbus would refuse to unlock more performance out of it's flagship widebody. Is the same issue present with the -1000???

FL370esq
02-17-2020, 12:10 PM
To your knowledge, is that possible? It would seem silly that Airbus would refuse to unlock more performance out of it's flagship widebody. Is the same issue present with the -1000???

Honestly don't know if the -1000 has a more beefed up body and has a higher relative MTOGW. Seems like too much airplane for Delta's business model but who knows? Maybe Ed and the BoD will approve it's purchase. As James Bond says, bigger pays more. 😊
​​​​​

Dstblj52
02-18-2020, 04:09 AM
Honestly don't know if the -1000 has a more beefed up body and has a higher relative MTOGW. Seems like too much airplane for Delta's business model but who knows? Maybe Ed and the BoD will approve it's purchase. As James Bond says, bigger pays more. 😊
​​​​​
Airbus continuously improves just about everymodel in their line up and their have already been two weight increases and they seem to have won the project sunrise contract so it will likely come down to does the company want to pay for that extra on later delivery frames

Cosa Nostra
02-19-2020, 05:42 PM
Are those LATAM birds at JFK ours?
Look like A350s.

saturn
02-19-2020, 06:38 PM
Are those LATAM birds at JFK ours?
Look like A350s.

They are 20% ours.:D

But answer your question, no those won't be Delta birds. LATAM has 12 350-900s, and orders for 14 350-1000s. Of their 12 -900s, 4 are leased to Qatar, and we'll take those 4. They're keeping the other 8 that are currently in their fleet (what you saw). We are also taking over the delivery commitments for the 14 -1000s, although its assumed we will convert the order to -900s.

Cosa Nostra
02-19-2020, 07:43 PM
They are 20% ours.:D

But answer your question, no those won't be Delta birds. LATAM has 12 350-900s, and orders for 14 350-1000s. Of their 12 -900s, 4 are leased to Qatar, and we'll take those 4. They're keeping the other 8 that are currently in their fleet (what you saw). We are also taking over the delivery commitments for the 14 -1000s, although its assumed we will convert the order to -900s.

Makes sense, thanks!