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View Full Version : Flow-BACKS ?


senecacaptain
03-11-2020, 12:29 PM
Just to clarify the Flow-Thru program in place between AA/Envoy/et al, my understanding if AA furloughs, those AA pilots can Flow-BACK to AA regional partners, versus be sent to the street.

Correct ?

I may have this all incorrect, just wanted to clarify


rld1k
03-11-2020, 12:33 PM
Wrong

..

Happyflyer
03-11-2020, 12:33 PM
It says if you flow to AA and washout of training then you can return to your previous status with seniority.

I wouldn't worry last time US Airways or AA furloughed they sent pilots with some seniority to their WO company's, no one wants to spend negotiating capital until there is a need.

The way they've treated WO with profit sharing, flow, and flight benifits, it would be completely out of character for AA pilots to hit the streets.


SparrowBird
03-11-2020, 12:33 PM
I don't think that exists.

paulhood
03-11-2020, 12:35 PM
Just to clarify the Flow-Thru program in place between AA/Envoy/et al, my understanding if AA furloughs, those AA pilots can Flow-BACK to AA regional partners, versus be sent to the street.

Correct ?

I may have this all incorrect, just wanted to clarify

Negative, that was the initial Flow through/Flow back agreement called Letter W/supplement 3, that was a 4 party agreement (AA, Eagle, APA and ALPA), that expired on 2010.

The new flow through in place with the wholly owns is an unilateral agreement, therefore the wholly own pilots do not receive an AA seniority number until the first day of class at AA, since APA is not part of the new flow through agreements, there is no flow back into the regionals.

Name User
03-11-2020, 12:42 PM
Having flow up but not flow back kinda irked me. Personally I'd rather APA come up with 40-50 hour max line values or something, I would think that would be more beneficial, as we can stay qualified in the hopes flying comes back quickly (faster spool up, I know, wishful thinking) and greatly reduces training at both carriers.

That would greatly reduce the company payroll and give us time off as well, while preserving the actual pay rates.

senecacaptain
03-11-2020, 12:43 PM
thank you for the clarification

chrisreedrules
03-11-2020, 12:51 PM
Letís see if I have this roughly correct...

Problem: Plummeting bookings lead to insane CASM.

Solutions in logical order:
1) Reduce flying
2) Park planes
3) Early retirements and buy outs
4) Shed aircraft if they stay parked too long
5) Shift flying to cheaper regionals
6) Furlough if pain looks to be extended and deep

The legacies appears to be on step 1 for now. I expect weíll see steps 2 - 4 before itís over. Hopefully it doesnít go beyond that. Iím sure a deal could be worked out for ďJets for JobsĒ or some sort of thing like whatís happened in the past if it comes down to it to avoid furloughs. In the near term Iím more concerned about AAís solvency.

ďParkerís plan seems to be to betting on this not lasting long. If he's right, AAG gets to spin up with a headstart and win a decent market share from the competition. If he's wrong, AAG bleeds out and doesn't have anything to spin up with by the time the flying recovers.Ē ...I heard that today and it seems to be pretty accurate. Not sure I trust that strategy though when everyone else is buttoning down the hatches.

DoNoHarm
03-11-2020, 01:11 PM
ďParkerís plan seems to be to betting on this not lasting long. If he's right, AAG gets to spin up with a headstart and win a decent market share from the competition. If he's wrong, AAG bleeds out and doesn't have anything to spin up with by the time the flying recovers.Ē ...I heard that today and it seems to be pretty accurate. Not sure I trust that strategy though when everyone else is buttoning down the hatches.

AA/Delta/United will be just fine. They are essential for the US economy and thus the government can not let them fail. These airlines are required for industry and government. Without these airlines, the economy and government of the US collapse. Much like the big banks and the auto industry.

I don't think that the same is true for the ULCC's, but the legacy airlines will be just fine.

chrisreedrules
03-11-2020, 01:14 PM
AA/Delta/United will be just fine. They are essential for the US economy and thus the government can not let them fail. These airlines are required for industry and government. Without these airlines, the economy and government of the US collapse. Much like the big banks and the auto industry.

I don't think that the same is true for the ULCC's, but the legacy airlines will be just fine.

I donít disagree with you. Ultimately I think the companies will survive. I think the interim will be painful though.

Happyflyer
03-11-2020, 01:15 PM
Having flow up but not flow back kinda irked me. Personally I'd rather APA come up with 40-50 hour max line values or something, I would think that would be more beneficial, as we can stay qualified in the hopes flying comes back quickly (faster spool up, I know, wishful thinking) and greatly reduces training at both carriers.

That would greatly reduce the company payroll and give us time off as well, while preserving the actual pay rates.

Your irked over not having flow back with seniority, or not having a reciprocal agreement where AA pilots get 25% of WO new hire positions.

Jma313
03-11-2020, 02:53 PM
Just to clarify the Flow-Thru program in place between AA/Envoy/et al, my understanding if AA furloughs, those AA pilots can Flow-BACK to AA regional partners, versus be sent to the street.

Correct ?

I may have this all incorrect, just wanted to clarify

only if a person washes out of training can they flow back to PSA.

5and20
03-11-2020, 03:01 PM
AA/Delta/United will be just fine. They are essential for the US economy and thus the government can not let them fail. These airlines are required for industry and government. Without these airlines, the economy and government of the US collapse. Much like the big banks and the auto industry.

I don't think that the same is true for the ULCC's, but the legacy airlines will be just fine.

Thats true the government would never let them go bankrupt, destroy shareholder value and furlough thousands. Where is my eye roll emoji

SSlow
03-11-2020, 03:15 PM
Thats true the government would never let them go bankrupt, destroy shareholder value and furlough thousands. Where is my eye roll emoji

I know right???

Plan for the worst and hope for the best. It's unfortunate that some will most likely be furloughed out of this (I hope I'm wrong), but that was the known risk with "having the flow in your back pocket" and making it your primary plan of action as opposed to a contingency. Sooner or later the music was going to stop and it sucks to be at the bottom when that happens.

paulhood
03-11-2020, 04:52 PM
It says if you flow to AA and washout of training then you can return to your previous status with seniority.

I wouldn't worry last time US Airways or AA furloughed they sent pilots with some seniority to their WO company's, no one wants to spend negotiating capital until there is a need.

The way they've treated WO with profit sharing, flow, and flight benifits, it would be completely out of character for AA pilots to hit the streets.

The last time AA furloughed there was a flow back agreement in place, there is none at this moment, and although the W.O are jus that wholly owned, however they do have different pilot unions, so NO Flow backs for AA pilots at this time.

Ask the flow back CAs that were at Envoy the moment letter 3 expired, they were immediately displaced to FOs to wherever their DOH at Envoy seniority would allow them to hold.

ZR29907
03-11-2020, 04:53 PM
however they do have different pilot unions, so NO Flow backs for AA pilots at this time.



And that is the heart of the matter right there

godsgift2aviatn
03-11-2020, 06:01 PM
AA/Delta/United will be just fine. They are essential for the US economy and thus the government can not let them fail. These airlines are required for industry and government. Without these airlines, the economy and government of the US collapse. Much like the big banks and the auto industry.

I don't think that the same is true for the ULCC's, but the legacy airlines will be just fine.

And just like that Socialism is cool again.

buddies8
03-12-2020, 04:14 AM
Are the flow throughs looking for an insurance policy. Call geico.

drinksonme
03-12-2020, 09:57 AM
The way people are reacting, a flow will be the last of your concerns.

Happyflyer
03-12-2020, 11:34 AM
Are the flow throughs looking for an insurance policy. Call geico.

There gonna call you. Take it or leave it. Which means take or else, which means it doesn't even need to go to a pilot wide vote since it's not a major change.

Varsity
03-13-2020, 03:48 AM
Pretty cute how 3 weeks ago the OTS hires at AA wanted to cancel the flow. Now they want to flow back to the W/Oís. :rolleyes:

chrisreedrules
03-13-2020, 04:41 AM
Pretty cute how 3 weeks ago the OTS hires at AA wanted to cancel the flow. Now they want to flow back to the W/Oís. :rolleyes:

Doesn't interest them until itís in their interest.

dera
03-13-2020, 05:31 AM
They are welcome to "flow back" as DEC new hires.

MqWhistleblower
03-13-2020, 05:47 AM
In order to flow back, APA needs to accept Eagle guys in their seniority list-just sayiní

shinydiscoballs
03-13-2020, 08:23 AM
In order to flow back, APA needs to accept Eagle guys in their seniority list-just sayiní

Flow back in the bottom of the list are welcomed, only if we get AA seniority.

ACEssXfer
03-13-2020, 08:48 AM
Flow back in the bottom of the list are welcomed, only if we get AA seniority.

"Flow back to the bottom of the list"........So...... Hired.....The same as being hired off the street.???? And you think that should get you an AA seniority number?

Interesting.

at6d
03-13-2020, 09:16 AM
Flow up to FO, flow back to FO is his point.

I remember the flowback after 9/11 very clearly.

senecacaptain
03-13-2020, 09:44 AM
could AA senior management "order" flow-backs, since they own both Envoy/etc. and mainline ?

aka "guys, this is what we are doing....no discussion..."

?

rld1k
03-13-2020, 10:03 AM
could AA senior management "order" flow-backs, since they own both Envoy/etc. and mainline ?

aka "guys, this is what we are doing....no discussion..."

?

I wonder if Delta is asking if they can put their regional partners who make 20% of what they do on the street so they don't go without a job.

Happyflyer
03-13-2020, 10:29 AM
could AA senior management "order" flow-backs, since they own both Envoy/etc. and mainline ?

aka "guys, this is what we are doing....no discussion..."

?

You mean furlough the current pilots, and hire new ones without recalling. Can they do that at AA they own it to?

If AA wants to flowback to the top of the seniority list, they should offer seniority numbers and longevity to effected pilots.

rld1k
03-13-2020, 11:12 AM
You mean furlough the current pilots, and hire new ones without recalling. Can they do that at AA they own it to?

If AA wants to flowback to the top of the seniority list, they should offer seniority numbers and longevity to effected pilots.

You mean all 3500 eagle pilots

Bahamasflyer
03-13-2020, 01:10 PM
And just like that Socialism is cool again.

Why SHOULDN'T we get government assistance in a crisis like this when, on the other hand, we are vital enough to be bound under the RLA? If we are bound by that act, then we damn better get the benefits from the govt being how essential we are.

Can't have one but not the other. Sorry, just calling a spade a spade.

Varsity
03-13-2020, 01:54 PM
could AA senior management "order" flow-backs, since they own both Envoy/etc. and mainline ?

aka "guys, this is what we are doing....no discussion..."

?

They could hire them at the W/O, but it would be at the bottom of the list. They can't unilaterally violate the seniority list and contract. Why would you even ask this?

Ready2board
03-13-2020, 02:00 PM
Flow back in the bottom of the list are welcomed, only if we get AA seniority.

probably wears ear buds under headset in flight.

Name User
03-13-2020, 05:02 PM
Why SHOULDN'T we get government assistance in a crisis like this when, on the other hand, we are vital enough to be bound under the RLA? If we are bound by that act, then we damn better get the benefits from the govt being how essential we are.

Can't have one but not the other. Sorry, just calling a spade a spade.
The government decree shut us down. We deserve compensation for that. IMO.

SonicFlyer
03-13-2020, 05:23 PM
AA/Delta/United will be just fine. They are essential for the US economy and thus the government can not let them fail. These airlines are required for industry and government. Without these airlines, the economy and government of the US collapse. Much like the big banks and the auto industry.Absolute nonsense.

The average taxpayer shouldn't be on the line if a business can't weather bad times.

ebuhoner
03-13-2020, 07:17 PM
Absolute nonsense.

The average taxpayer shouldn't be on the line if a business can't weather bad times.

I wouldnít call it nonsense. Google TARP recipients.

I still think there will be lots of furloughs though 😞. I hope Iím wrong..

MasterOfPuppets
03-13-2020, 08:03 PM
Hey guys, I was wondering if someone can show me the chart for checking to see how much Iíll be getting in profit-sharing for this year. Thanks!

spirit gets profit sharing?

Vernon Demerest
03-13-2020, 08:05 PM
Absolute nonsense.

The average taxpayer shouldn't be on the line if a business can't weather bad times.

The average taxpayer wonít. But you probably already knew that-*******. These are government backed loans that will be paid back. Keeping several hundred thousand people employed and paying taxes is a lot more productive than extending unemployment and adding to Medicaid roles etc.

Buzzlightyear
03-13-2020, 09:15 PM
The average taxpayer wonít. But you probably already knew that-*******. These are government backed loans that will be paid back. Keeping several hundred thousand people employed and paying taxes is a lot more productive than extending unemployment and adding to Medicaid roles etc.
Common sense has no place on this board. Iím highly disappointed in your level headed assessment. 😀

drinksonme
03-13-2020, 09:20 PM
Is this thread for real?

Papa Bear
03-14-2020, 02:20 AM
Absolute nonsense.

The average taxpayer shouldn't be on the line if a business can't weather bad times.

American is so far in debt and all around a financial mess. Tax payers should bail out all legacies equally. Not prop up shotty managment decisions.

Route66
03-14-2020, 02:27 AM
American is so far in debt and all around a financial mess. Tax payers should bail out all legacies equally. Not prop up shotty managment decisions.

I donít suppose you can read the FACTS. American is the best carrier situated to recover from the Wuhan virus. Iím sure you can read but I canít make you UNDERSTAND.

https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/static-files/d5a78e61-6291-45ef-b171-889a1eb4aea5

Route66
03-14-2020, 03:03 AM
American is so far in debt and all around a financial mess. Tax payers should bail out all legacies equally. Not prop up shotty managment decisions.

hereís even MORE about the ďsecond bestĒ carrier in the world. American is by far best to weather the storm.
https://techcrunch.com/2020/03/13/delta-air-lines-reduces-capacity-by-40/

If you click on the link in the article the 403 page not available is blocking the letter to employees. More to the story to come.

Al Czervik
03-14-2020, 03:35 AM
Absolute nonsense.

The average taxpayer shouldn't be on the line if a business can't weather bad times.

they wonít be. These loans will make their govt revenue like the bank loans. But pay no attention to the actual facts.

buddies8
03-14-2020, 03:56 AM
You folk are amusing. Let's see, you want flowback because you gave something upfront, yeah no you did not. So parker is liking this, you ready to give up pay and scope to flowback. You have just indicated to management how selfish and willing to screw each other you truly are. Oh, the flowback talk coming from the flow throughs, well they screwed the previous pilot group they were with, fantastic barometer.

Battlinbear
03-14-2020, 07:09 AM
You folk are amusing. Let's see, you want flowback because you gave something upfront, yeah no you did not. So parker is liking this, you ready to give up pay and scope to flowback. You have just indicated to management how selfish and willing to screw each other you truly are. Oh, the flowback talk coming from the flow throughs, well they screwed the previous pilot group they were with, fantastic barometer.

And we shouldnít forget the pilot group thag started it all. P Yes A. Gimme that 12/4 pay scale, awful premiums on health care and the keys to our brothers 700s.

Name User
03-14-2020, 07:29 AM
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Want to flow up without interviewing like we all did? Fine..but don't get upset when we want to flow back as well.

Al Czervik
03-14-2020, 07:54 AM
You folk are amusing. Let's see, you want flowback because you gave something upfront, yeah no you did not. So parker is liking this, you ready to give up pay and scope to flowback. You have just indicated to management how selfish and willing to screw each other you truly are. Oh, the flowback talk coming from the flow throughs, well they screwed the previous pilot group they were with, fantastic barometer.

I thought the whole flow back thing was a joke. Thatís how Iím taking it.

senecacaptain
03-14-2020, 08:36 AM
American is so far in debt and all around a financial mess. Tax payers should bail out all legacies equally. Not prop up shotty managment decisions.

If a bail out is going to happen, it should go to all airlines. Not just AA. This includes SWA, Frontier, Spirit, etc. It should be "airline sector" focused, not carrier specific.

Swedish Blender
03-14-2020, 08:39 AM
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Want to flow up without interviewing like we all did? Fine..but don't get upset when we want to flow back as well.

if youíre going to apply it that way, Iím sure the regionals welcome you to the bottom of the list just like they get at AA.

sobo
03-14-2020, 08:45 AM
I donít suppose you can read the FACTS. American is the best carrier situated to recover from the Wuhan virus. Iím sure you can read but I canít make you UNDERSTAND.

https://americanairlines.gcs-web.com/static-files/d5a78e61-6291-45ef-b171-889a1eb4aea5

No offense, but you do the math on that presentation, and AA only provided ~$9b of their debt on there. There is real no way to know how much debt is due in the short term that would eat into that cash on hand.

highfarfast
03-14-2020, 08:47 AM
if youíre going to apply it that way, Iím sure the regionals welcome you to the bottom of the list just like they get at AA.
Don't forget the year of probation as well.

Pilot X
03-14-2020, 08:50 AM
if youíre going to apply it that way, Iím sure the regionals welcome you to the bottom of the list just like they get at AA.

so I guess you should just flow with your regional hire date and slot right in with us huh?

Pilot X
03-14-2020, 08:51 AM
Don't forget the year of probation as well.

yeah because probation is just so tough

highfarfast
03-14-2020, 09:13 AM
yeah because probation is just so tough
​​​​​​
Just saying keep it same if you want what WO pilots have.

Cujo665
03-14-2020, 09:15 AM
so I guess you should just flow with your regional hire date and slot right in with us huh?


Why don't all you guys cut to the chase and just make one huge list. Merge the 3 Eagle lists into one, dump ALPA, put the Eagles into APA, then form one list. Allow a path for street hiring at both regional and AA.

Envoy takes off the street, and has cadets in University programs. The cadets get company seniority and class seniority. Do the same at AA. Let the Eagles flow and get class seniority and carry company seniority.
Fence it at the group 1 jets and the E175. Anybody on property is grandfathered from displacement. A super senior regional guy can't displace anybody at AA with a DOH prior to the date of signing. Likewise, an AA guy can't displace (flowback) a regional guy with DOH before the signing.
Anybody hired after DOS at either Eagle or AA uses their DOH seniority, with 2 years as Eagle CA being the trigger to be able to bid to a larger jet. When all the original Eagles/AA's finally retire you'll have one large unfenced list.

Swedish Blender
03-14-2020, 09:16 AM
so I guess you should just flow with your regional hire date and slot right in with us huh?

The problem is youíre confusing the issues. The previous agreement was a four party flow up/flow back. It expired.

What is currently happening, even though it is called a ďflowĒ is more of a preferential hiring program created by AMR management to use as a carrot to staff the regionals. They call it that for lack of a better term to attract candidates to those companies.


Edit for previous post. Before Eagle was one Eagle before it became Envoy. I believe Flagship and maybe one other were part of APA.

Cujo665
03-14-2020, 09:25 AM
The problem is youíre confusing the issues. The previous agreement was a four party flow up/flow back. It expired.

What is currently happening, even though it is called a ďflowĒ is more of a preferential hiring program created by AMR management to use as a carrot to staff the regionals. They call it that for lack of a better term to attract candidates to those companies.


Edit for previous post. Before Eagle was one Eagle before it became Envoy. I believe Flagship and maybe one other were part of APA.

No, it's a flow program. It's a one way flow, but a flow none-the-less. Even at that it's not entirely one way. Piedmont allows their flows to return to PDT in the event of a training failure.
It's a one way flow because APA was not involved in the agreement. AA controls the hiring, so they simply promise X number of positions to their regionals. It is a flow, and is the correct term. Once your seniority number is up, you go to class.
Other airlines like Delta and United have preferential interviews. There is no going to class at the mainline without the interview process.

rld1k
03-14-2020, 09:47 AM
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Want to flow up without interviewing like we all did? Fine..but don't get upset when we want to flow back as well.

No thanks. Not in the contact and it's not happening

Route66
03-14-2020, 10:20 AM
No offense, but you do the math on that presentation, and AA only provided ~$9b of their debt on there. There is real no way to know how much debt is due in the short term that would eat into that cash on hand.

Its NOT the ďdebtĒ but INTEREST or debt servicing that is dealt with. But if your really wish to get in the nitty gritty read the 10k. I donít think youíll understand it because, again, short term and long term debt has different correlations to liquidity. But the slides provide +17 billion in liquidity to service everything plus whatever the government kicks in for this year. Latest from PK and Isom is parking 757/767 and reducing travel this summer to revisit in 60 days.

Weíll be good for a while.

Ready2board
03-14-2020, 11:53 AM
No thanks. Not in the contact and it's not happening

Hahahahah tough guy over here. You a freshly minted 1000 hour captain at envoy now?

sobo
03-14-2020, 11:56 AM
Its NOT the ďdebtĒ but INTEREST or debt servicing that is dealt with. But if your really wish to get in the nitty gritty read the 10k. I donít think youíll understand it because, again, short term and long term debt has different correlations to liquidity. But the slides provide +17 billion in liquidity to service everything plus whatever the government kicks in for this year. Latest from PK and Isom is parking 757/767 and reducing travel this summer to revisit in 60 days.

Weíll be good for a while.

Well, according to the 10-k total contractual (debt) obligation in 2020 by AAL = $9.4B. Gonna need to trim some fat eh?

mkitrn
03-14-2020, 12:06 PM
Doug is going for 11 with parachute same thing as Stephen wolf

Route66
03-14-2020, 12:07 PM
Well, according to the 10-k total contractual (debt) obligation in 2020 by AAL = $9.4B. Gonna need to trim some fat eh?
Yes, but they donít owe it all at once. The debtors arenít going to call the notes today.

sobo
03-14-2020, 12:09 PM
Yes, but they donít owe it all at once. The debtors arenít going to call the notes today.

That's fair.

I was just stating the JPM presentation made it look like they had $7b in cash plus $10b in financing ready to service 0 debt in 2020, which is untrue.

I don't doubt that AA is any less prepared to weather this storm than anyone else right now, but I will say that presentation made things look a little more rosey than I personally believe they are.

Pilot X
03-14-2020, 12:47 PM
​​​​​​
Just saying keep it same if you want what WO pilots have.

I am not a flow thru nor did I say I was looking to flow back

Swedish Blender
03-14-2020, 02:42 PM
I am not a flow thru nor did I say I was looking to flow back

Like you assuming this:
so I guess you should just flow with your regional hire date and slot right in with us huh?


Just looking to say youíre better.

Pilot X
03-15-2020, 04:28 AM
Just looking to say youíre better.

no just said I didnít flow

jetflyer123
03-15-2020, 04:45 AM
No thanks. Not in the contact and it's not happening

Well perhaps AA and APA could use force majeure to break the current flow contracts and negotiate new ones. If we canít flow back, you canít flow up. Think about it.... in the long run it is good for you.

AllYourBaseAreB
03-15-2020, 06:26 AM
What is the point for the company to want a flow back if they are not at the same time trying grow the regional? Just creates more training events.

thatís how Jets 4 Jobs worked. There was something to be negotiated and given up. I donít think anyone is interested in relaxing scope to mitigate furloughs this time around.

Cujo665
03-15-2020, 01:26 PM
Well perhaps AA and APA could use force majeure to break the current flow contracts and negotiate new ones. If we canít flow back, you canít flow up. Think about it.... in the long run it is good for you.

unfortunately, the APA doesnít determine who gets hired.

dera
03-18-2020, 02:49 PM
Well perhaps AA and APA could use force majeure to break the current flow contracts and negotiate new ones. If we canít flow back, you canít flow up. Think about it.... in the long run it is good for you.

No they couldn't.
There is no "force majeure" clause in our contract.

Flowbacks are not going to happen.

rdneckpilot
03-18-2020, 03:08 PM
Well perhaps AA and APA could use force majeure to break the current flow contracts and negotiate new ones. If we canít flow back, you canít flow up. Think about it.... in the long run it is good for you.
nothing about that would be good for anyone at the regional.

at6d
03-18-2020, 09:24 PM
I had a flowback tell me straight to my face during a flight that ďit would be better for everyone if you were on the street.Ē

rdneckpilot
03-18-2020, 10:31 PM
I had a flowback tell me straight to my face during a flight that ďit would be better for everyone if you were on the street.Ē
that is not surprising

at6d
03-18-2020, 11:55 PM
Well to be fair, I flew with a TWA flowback that was the complete pro and a credit to his profession. But the other guy...toolbag. As others did, I flew with many of them in those times.

Bruno82
03-19-2020, 02:40 AM
They are welcome to "flow back" as DEC new hires.


Our DECs will be lucky to be Cs soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cyio
03-20-2020, 03:53 PM
Why don't all you guys cut to the chase and just make one huge list. Merge the 3 Eagle lists into one, dump ALPA, put the Eagles into APA, then form one list. Allow a path for street hiring at both regional and AA.

Envoy takes off the street, and has cadets in University programs. The cadets get company seniority and class seniority. Do the same at AA. Let the Eagles flow and get class seniority and carry company seniority.
Fence it at the group 1 jets and the E175. Anybody on property is grandfathered from displacement. A super senior regional guy can't displace anybody at AA with a DOH prior to the date of signing. Likewise, an AA guy can't displace (flowback) a regional guy with DOH before the signing.
Anybody hired after DOS at either Eagle or AA uses their DOH seniority, with 2 years as Eagle CA being the trigger to be able to bid to a larger jet. When all the original Eagles/AA's finally retire you'll have one large unfenced list.
I have been saying this for a long time and to be honest, have no idea why the AA pilots/APA are against it. It would strengthen the union and offer even more bargaining power. Not to mention elevate everything we are seeing now in this thread.

Jdub2
03-20-2020, 04:16 PM
Nobody wants to spend the negotiating capital to make that happen though, and especially in these times thatís completely understandable. I do think it is a bit ridiculous that we have three sets of ceos, vp of flt ops etc. amongst the WOs, though, and would not be surprised to see a merger.

There is a pretty strong reason management prefers us separate, however.....

Happyflyer
03-20-2020, 04:18 PM
Well perhaps AA and APA could use force majeure to break the current flow contracts and negotiate new ones. If we canít flow back, you canít flow up. Think about it.... in the long run it is good for you.

I hope you realize how selfish you sound. Any power/legal proceeding AA used to break an Alpa contract at a WO carrier, would forge a direct path to break an APA contract.

That sword cuts both ways. Do you really think they're gonna stop at a WO if they can just toss a contract in a shredder?

You're specifically saying you hope to win the battle and lose the war.

Cyio
03-20-2020, 04:34 PM
Nobody wants to spend the negotiating capital to make that happen though, and especially in these times that’s completely understandable. I do think it is a bit ridiculous that we have three sets of ceos, vp of flt ops etc. amongst the WOs, though, and would not be surprised to see a merger.

There is a pretty strong reason management prefers us separate, however.....
I understand that management wants them separate, which is the entire reason they should be together. I also understand that "negotiating capital" is important, but imagine how much you would have if we had one group. Also, why would we have negotiate with management over what union we belong to? I mean if APA disbanded and joined ALPA, could the company stop that? Same the other way around?

I may be new to the union world, but isn't that something we just do on our own and management deals with it?

OldBiff
03-20-2020, 05:27 PM
Well perhaps AA and APA could use force majeure to break the current flow contracts and negotiate new ones. If we canít flow back, you canít flow up. Think about it.... in the long run it is good for you.
Thatís not how any of that works. Lots of folks that donít understand the law are throwing around words. Thatís not how a force majeure is applied. Youíre like morons commenting about hearsay during the impeachment. We get it you learned words, weíre all proud of you. Now go polish your boat or write an alimony check to your third FA ex-wife, whatever you guys do.

Jdub2
03-20-2020, 05:36 PM
I understand that management wants them separate, which is the entire reason they should be together. I also understand that "negotiating capital" is important, but imagine how much you would have if we had one group. Also, why would we have negotiate with management over what union we belong to? I mean if APA disbanded and joined ALPA, could the company stop that? Same the other way around?

I may be new to the union world, but isn't that something we just do on our own and management deals with it?

I would much prefer us to be together! I donít think that sentiment is shared by a lot of our brethren at mainline, and theyíre the ones that would have to negotiate for it. Since management does not want us unified, mainline would have to give up some of the things they were hoping to achieve in a new contract in proportion to how much management does not want us unified. Imagine being asked to accept very little or no pay raises etc. for the sole purpose of helping the pilots at, for all intents and purposes, a separate airline... that is a lot of charity to ask for.

It is possible for us to decertify ALPA but who knows if APA wants us? Setting aside the disastrous choice of changing horses in the middle of this race, there are many reasons why their union wants to represent solely their interests. It is somewhat strange for the rest of the industry that one union represents different segments of the industry that have different interests and needs. Lastly and most importantly decertifying (breaking) a union can be suicidal for labor, especially for small fish in a big pond. Collective bargaining is the only thing holding the ship together and a loss of our CBA/union would lead to a justified but horrific every man for himself. One misstep in trying to bring on APA would end us.

Most of the pilots at mainline that support one list came through the regionals, and not all pilots at mainline came through the regionals. Thereís also the issue, or perception thereof depending on your vantage point, of the professionalism ďproblem.Ē If we were magically instantly all on the same list, mainline would lose more of the ability to filter us. Some percentage of our pilots, though I would argue extremely small, are ďbad apples.Ē Whether they do not appear as professional in public as is desired, lack the decision making skills required for captaincy, or simply have an undesirable social media presence, the fact is that there is a perception that these pilots are here and that 2 year letters and discipline, or termination, will prevent them from becoming problem pilots at mainline.

It doesnít particularly matter whether or not thatís the truth, as your attitude towards the matter depends on where you are. The reality is even a mere whiff of impropriety is enough to add reluctance to all other parties willingness to unify. Throughout recent airline history, the regionals and military are viewed as where pilots are minted and tested, so that the majors can select the ones they consider most desirable. Even though the flow complicates matters, we are still at least perceived to be proving grounds to ensure a higher quality of applicant/feed for mainline.

Ultimately, because we stand to benefit the most we tend to greatly overemphasize the benefits. Mainline is exposed to way more risks, and the benefits if any are much less clear for/to them, so itís very hard to ask or expect them to go out on a limb for us. With the extreme volatility and uncertainty facing all of us itís almost unconscionable to expect them to give up negotiating capital for us. Because of the RLA we held few cards to begin with and they are blowing away in the wind now.

Wasnít trying to lecture and was meant more for the silent eyeballs that donít already know a lot of this.

Solidarity, J

Cyio
03-20-2020, 07:02 PM
I would much prefer us to be together! I donít think that sentiment is shared by a lot of our brethren at mainline, and theyíre the ones that would have to negotiate for it. Since management does not want us unified, mainline would have to give up some of the things they were hoping to achieve in a new contract in proportion to how much management does not want us unified. Imagine being asked to accept very little or no pay raises etc. for the sole purpose of helping the pilots at, for all intents and purposes, a separate airline... that is a lot of charity to ask for.

It is possible for us to decertify ALPA but who knows if APA wants us? Setting aside the disastrous choice of changing horses in the middle of this race, there are many reasons why their union wants to represent solely their interests. It is somewhat strange for the rest of the industry that one union represents different segments of the industry that have different interests and needs. Lastly and most importantly decertifying (breaking) a union can be suicidal for labor, especially for small fish in a big pond. Collective bargaining is the only thing holding the ship together and a loss of our CBA/union would lead to a justified but horrific every man for himself. One misstep in trying to bring on APA would end us.

Most of the pilots at mainline that support one list came through the regionals, and not all pilots at mainline came through the regionals. Thereís also the issue, or perception thereof depending on your vantage point, of the professionalism ďproblem.Ē If we were magically instantly all on the same list, mainline would lose more of the ability to filter us. Some percentage of our pilots, though I would argue extremely small, are ďbad apples.Ē Whether they do not appear as professional in public as is desired, lack the decision making skills required for captaincy, or simply have an undesirable social media presence, the fact is that there is a perception that these pilots are here and that 2 year letters and discipline, or termination, will prevent them from becoming problem pilots at mainline.

It doesnít particularly matter whether or not thatís the truth, as your attitude towards the matter depends on where you are. The reality is even a mere whiff of impropriety is enough to add reluctance to all other parties willingness to unify. Throughout recent airline history, the regionals and military are viewed as where pilots are minted and tested, so that the majors can select the ones they consider most desirable. Even though the flow complicates matters, we are still at least perceived to be proving grounds to ensure a higher quality of applicant/feed for mainline.

Ultimately, because we stand to benefit the most we tend to greatly overemphasize the benefits. Mainline is exposed to way more risks, and the benefits if any are much less clear for/to them, so itís very hard to ask or expect them to go out on a limb for us. With the extreme volatility and uncertainty facing all of us itís almost unconscionable to expect them to give up negotiating capital for us. Because of the RLA we held few cards to begin with and they are blowing away in the wind now.

Wasnít trying to lecture and was meant more for the silent eyeballs that donít already know a lot of this.

Solidarity, J
I very much appreciate the post and it has helped to at least see the other side of the coin a bit more clearly.

While I donít agree with everything you said, of which you alluded too, I can at least see the perceptions from both sides.


Anyway, thank you again.

rld1k
03-20-2020, 09:07 PM
Hahahahah tough guy over here. You a freshly minted 1000 hour captain at envoy now?

Ok boomer.

at6d
03-20-2020, 09:57 PM
Merging all the AA feed together? Where have I heard that before? History about to repeat itself I guess.

Saabs
03-20-2020, 10:33 PM
Merging all the AA feed together? Where have I heard that before? History about to repeat itself I guess.
arenít they already all owned by AA? Or are you talking about pilot seniority?

at6d
03-20-2020, 10:42 PM
arenít they already all owned by AA? Or are you talking about pilot seniority?

Just a throwback to Command, Wings West, Simmons, Executive, who else did I miss?

iHateAMR
03-20-2020, 11:10 PM
Just a throwback to Command, Wings West, Simmons, Executive, who else did I miss?

Nashville Eagle

at6d
03-21-2020, 01:14 AM
Yes! Of course!

animation
03-21-2020, 04:28 AM
Bring back the ďEagle FlightĒ callsign lol

buddies8
03-21-2020, 08:28 PM
Just a throwback to Command, Wings West, Simmons, Executive, who else did I miss?
flagship and metro

buddies8
03-21-2020, 08:29 PM
Bring back the ďEagle FlightĒ callsign lol
ATC calls envoy, endeavor all the time.