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View Full Version : New LOAs being offered...


FetaCheese
03-15-2020, 08:16 PM
Just heard...3 of them. Coming down the pipe any moment now. Standby...


wiz5422
03-15-2020, 10:09 PM
Base blast I got from LAX had an attached LOA but said JetBlue on it. Did you just copy and paste their LOA and is that our actual LOA?

FetaCheese
03-15-2020, 10:15 PM
It's out. Check your emails...its from APA. I think this will really help us. 3 different tiers of Leaves of Absence being offered..including one paid at 55 hours.

The most interesting and unique one..is the Voluntary Permanent Leave of Absence. Basically an early retirement offer for pilots aged 62 to 64.


wiz5422
03-15-2020, 10:27 PM
This is great news. On a side note, I know Kirby and a few others have said that they are cutting their pay 100% and even other mansgments pay by 50%. Has Parker cut his pay at all?

sumwherelse
03-15-2020, 10:32 PM
If I was eligible I would have already said yes to the early out. That medical being included is huge.

FetaCheese
03-15-2020, 10:35 PM
This is great news. On a side note, I know Kirby and a few others have said that they are cutting their pay 100% and even other mansgments pay by 50%. Has Parker cut his pay at all?

I haven't heard anything about that..but doesn't mean it isn't being discussed.

But these LOAs just breathed a huge gust of life into this pilot group. The fact that there are 3 tiers including one for those pilots close to retirement is huge. My take is that many will jump on this..and in 3 to 6 months this whole corona situation will have settled down anyway.

First good news in a couple of weeks.

BigZ
03-15-2020, 10:39 PM
This is great news. On a side note, I know Kirby and a few others have said that they are cutting their pay 100% and even other mansgments pay by 50%. Has Parker cut his pay at all?
Isn't he paid in stock?

sumwherelse
03-15-2020, 10:48 PM
Isn't he paid in stock?

yes which is why every time someone says they want a BK they are talking nonsense. They may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but with the exposure he and his buddies have NO WAY they want a BK.

buddies8
03-16-2020, 01:30 AM
Care to share.

iahflyr
03-16-2020, 04:33 AM
So one is an Early Retirement LOA, one is a 55hr no fly line, what is the third LOA? Can you post them?

thrust
03-16-2020, 04:51 AM
So one is an Early Retirement LOA, one is a 55hr no fly line, what is the third LOA? Can you post them?

To summarize:

Pilots pay protected for COVID-19 quarantines for duration. Includes self-quarantines for sick family member. Sick bank restored for COVID-19 diagnosis.

1. Voluntary unpaid Leave of Absense, retain all benefits and accrue Length of Service, up to 12 months.

2. Voluntary Short-Term LoA, paid 55 credited hours, 1/3/6 months long, retain all benefits, 401k/profit sharing eligible, required to maintain currency but thatís it.

3. Voluntary Permanent LoA, age 62+ paid 50 hours until age 65, retain all benefits and 401k, etc as above, remaining sick deposited into HSA.

Looks like a helluva job by APA and AA.

Dobbs18
03-16-2020, 04:53 AM
So one is an Early Retirement LOA, one is a 55hr no fly line, what is the third LOA? Can you post them?
If you are an AA pilot the LOA should be really easy to find...but the gist of the 3rd is just an unpaid LOA in which you accrue LOS and retain benefits at active employee rates.

AllYourBaseAreB
03-16-2020, 04:54 AM
Third one is an extended unpaid leave up to 1 year, with no requirement to stay current.

short term is either 1,3, or 6 months. Must maintain currency. Paid 55 hrs, with all bennies.

permanent is 50 hrs till 65, all bennies, sick time goes to a HRA at a discounted rate. CANNOT come back to flying EVER. 62+ years old to apply

206321
03-16-2020, 05:13 AM
Amazing when the company shows intention to negotiate!

Good job APA.LOA-20-001 has two primary provisions: Pay Protection for pilots impacted by COVID-19, and incentivized Voluntary Leaves of Absence. I encourage everyone to read the full text of the LOA (https://www.alliedpilots.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=dJvv9yHDZCs%3d&portalid=0), but here is a 30,000-foot view of the agreement.

Pay Protection:

Pilots who are placed in quarantine based on concerns related to COVID-19 or who are diagnosed with COVID-19 will be pay protected during the duration of the evaluation, treatment, or quarantine.
Pay protection also applies to pilots who self-quarantine due to a family member being diagnosed with COVID-19.
Pilots who call in sick and are subsequently diagnosed with COVID-19 will have their sick time restored to their bank and will be pay protected.

Voluntary Leaves of Absence:

Three different voluntary Leaves of Absence will be offered. The special voluntary leaves are designed to reduce temporary pilot overages caused by current circumstances.

Voluntary Extended Leaves of Absence (ďVELOAĒ): A VELOA will be an unpaid leave; however, the pilot will continue to accrue Length of Service (LOS), will continue to have access to employee benefits at active pilot rates, and will retain travel privileges similar to an Active pilot. These leaves may be up to 12 months in duration.
Voluntary Short-Term Leaves of Absence (ďVSTLOAĒ): Pilots who take a VSTLOA will be paid 55 credited hours for the duration of the leave. Leaves will be 1, 3, or 6 months long. The pilot will continue to accrue sick and vacation, be eligible for all benefits at the same rates as active pilots, and retain travel benefits. Pay for the 55 hours will be eligible for 401(k) contributions and profit-sharing calculations. Pilots on a VSTLOA will be required to maintain currency but will have no other flying obligations.
Voluntary Permanent Leave of Absence (ďVPLOAĒ): Pilots between the ages of 62 and 65 will be eligible for a VPLOA. VPLOA pilots will be paid 50 hours per month until age 65. VPLOA pilots are eligible for all benefits at the same rates as active pilots, and retain travel benefits. Pay for the 50 hours will be eligible for 401(k) contributions and profit-sharing calculations. At retirement, the balance of the pilotís sick bank will be deposited into a Health Reimbursement Account (HRA) at 40% of the pilotís applicable hourly rate. A VPLOA pilot will remain in this leave until retirement. This leave is permanent and cannot be changed by either the pilot or the Company.



On a related note, I know the possibility of a furlough is on many of your minds. I can tell you that at this point, the likelihood of a furlough has not been suggested by either side. If that changes, we will let you know immediately. One of the main objectives of the LOA (https://www.alliedpilots.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=dJvv9yHDZCs%3d&portalid=0) ratified today is to mitigate that threat. At this point, it is too early to tell if we are headed down that path, but understand that stopping and reversing the training machinery would be incredibly costly and time-consuming. It is in our mutual interest to avoid reductions by way of furlough.

Furthermore, the airline industry is very different from what it was just before 9/11. Domestic load factors have increased from an average of 60% in 1990, to 69% in 2001, to 85% in 2019. International loads have risen from 67%, to 72%, to 84% over the same timeframe. The point is that the world travels by air far more than in the past, and the industry has become more efficient, so those loads are likely to return after the pandemic has passed (hopefully sooner rather than later). Additionally, furloughed pilots would require five or more weeks to requalify in their aircraft, greatly reducing the ability of American Airlines to resume normal service when the demand inevitably ramps back up.

Know that while we finally have the basic protections necessary for a professional pilot to operate in a fast-evolving public health emergency, your union leadership will continue to operate ďall hands on deckĒ until this crisis has passed, and we will continue updating you daily for as long as the situation remains critical.

PRS Guitars
03-16-2020, 05:20 AM
Am I missing something? Has the company agreed to this?

HobGoblin
03-16-2020, 05:27 AM
Am I missing something? Has the company agreed to this?


yes, and yes.

thrust
03-16-2020, 05:29 AM
Am I missing something? Has the company agreed to this?

The LOA was written from the company (KS) to the union (EF)... so yes?

biigD
03-16-2020, 05:30 AM
Still no e-mail. Has this been sent out to the unwashed masses yet?

Arado 234
03-16-2020, 05:32 AM
Still no e-mail. Has this been sent out to the unwashed masses yet?

Late last night.

Name User
03-16-2020, 05:37 AM
I think this is good news but worry about the costs the corporation takes on and how it will impact its future. I estimate this will cost about $2b to pay just the retirees assuming 4,000 take it over three years. This is a large cost that won't allow the company to adequately compete against the ULCC's whom I fear will gain a substantial foothold after this. Spirit is by far my largest worry.

I guess what I'm saying is, I worry AA will become what US Airways was...a slowly dying carrier not able to compete due to overburdened costs.

I'm not trying to be negative but I think it's also important to take a bigger picture.

biigD
03-16-2020, 05:37 AM
Late last night.

Huh. Maybe I've already been furloughed! Should probably head back to the drinking thread on the United board. ;)

In all seriousness, this is good news.

Arado 234
03-16-2020, 05:39 AM
Huh. Maybe I've already been furloughed! Should probably head back to the drinking thread on the United board. ;)

In all seriousness, this is good news.

Has UA announced furloughs?

biigD
03-16-2020, 05:41 AM
Has UA announced furloughs?

Sorry, it was a joke. I'm at AA. One of their guys started a 'what are you drinking' thread, and I was posting over there last week.

Arado 234
03-16-2020, 05:48 AM
Sorry, it was a joke. I'm at AA. One of their guys started a 'what are you drinking' thread, and I was posting over there last week.

The reason I asked I heard rumors that not enough pilots took the 50-hour-stay-at-home option.

JulesWinfield
03-16-2020, 05:51 AM
The COVID pay protection may as well be written in toilet paper. It's nearly impossible to get diagnosed with at this point.

206321
03-16-2020, 05:57 AM
I think this is good news but worry about the costs the corporation takes on and how it will impact its future. I estimate this will cost about $2b to pay just the retirees assuming 4,000 take it over three years. This is a large cost that won't allow the company to adequately compete against the ULCC's whom I fear will gain a substantial foothold after this. Spirit is by far my largest worry.

I guess what I'm saying is, I worry AA will become what US Airways was...a slowly dying carrier not able to compete due to overburdened costs.

I'm not trying to be negative but I think it's also important to take a bigger picture.

4000 is wayyy too high of an estimate. The company would never offer that many. I doubt they would even offer half that.

TankerDriver
03-16-2020, 06:01 AM
So for the 55 hr guys, is currency going to be maintained in the sim?

Yes, this is great work by everyone involved, but as mentioned above, what happens when they don't get enough takers. I know what I'd do if I were a 62 yo not sure if I wanted to go to 65, but what about everyone else banking on the next guy volunteering for the 55hr deal?

Dobbs18
03-16-2020, 06:03 AM
I think this is good news but worry about the costs the corporation takes on and how it will impact its future. I estimate this will cost about $2b to pay just the retirees assuming 4,000 take it over three years. This is a large cost that won't allow the company to adequately compete against the ULCC's whom I fear will gain a substantial foothold after this. Spirit is by far my largest worry.

I guess what I'm saying is, I worry AA will become what US Airways was...a slowly dying carrier not able to compete due to overburdened costs.

I'm not trying to be negative but I think it's also important to take a bigger picture.
You think 4,000 will take the early retirement LOA???!!! I wish I shared your optimism when it comes to that, but I think too many guys/gals that age are in a panic to get every last dollar they can before retirement. I hope its a huge number but I would be thrilled with anything over 500....did you take into account the savings of not paying out sick time in lost production, or the savings of not paying these guys 80hr lines (avg) at top of pay scale through the end of their careers, lots of other stuff to consider so that $2B number of yours is very fluid I think. As always furloughing off the top is huge savings compared to doing it on the bottom...and yes during any recession or the beginning of economic recovery LCCs have always grown, this is nothing new and therefore somewhat preparable...but I really don't know anything, I am just a line pilot, no sarcasm, just my opinions.

Arado 234
03-16-2020, 06:03 AM
So for the 55 hr guys, is currency going to be maintained in the sim?

I am wondering about this, too. Can you call scheduling/flight standards and pick up a trip to maintain currency?

Arado 234
03-16-2020, 06:05 AM
AA must genuinely think demand is going to come back, otherwise they'd just furlough outright.

My concern is the cost of this and what it will do for our ability to compete should we make it through.

Anyone 62 and up should have their head examined if they don't take this.

Numbers (cost) are like statistics. You can turn them around as much as you want, usually to management's advantage (bonus). Question here is what kind of deal the airlines can make with the government and banks.

Name User
03-16-2020, 06:08 AM
So for the 55 hr guys, is currency going to be maintained in the sim?

Yes, this is great work by everyone involved, but as mentioned above, what happens when they don't get enough takers. I know what I'd do if I were a 62 yo not sure if I wanted to go to 65, but what about everyone else banking on the next guy volunteering for the 55hr deal?
I'm definitely bidding for the 55 month one. I can't imagine who wouldn't.

Name User
03-16-2020, 06:10 AM
4000 is wayyy too high of an estimate. The company would never offer that many. I doubt they would even offer half that.
Yeah you're right, I really wasn't thinking lol.

Al Czervik
03-16-2020, 06:14 AM
The reason I asked I heard rumors that not enough pilots took the 50-hour-stay-at-home option.

they havenít been specifically offered. (Second round)

Name User
03-16-2020, 06:15 AM
Numbers (cost) are like statistics. You can turn them around as much as you want, usually to management's advantage (bonus). Question here is what kind of deal the airlines can make with the government and banks.
Yep, if they get a lifeline we might be ok. I dunno. Really absolutely no way to tell how this is gonna end up.

thrust
03-16-2020, 06:19 AM
So for the 55 hr guys, is currency going to be maintained in the sim?


If you bothered to read the LOA, it clearly answers that question...

thrust
03-16-2020, 06:19 AM
I am wondering about this, too. Can you call scheduling/flight standards and pick up a trip to maintain currency?

Read the LOA...

RhinoBallAuto
03-16-2020, 06:40 AM
I am wondering about this, too. Can you call scheduling/flight standards and pick up a trip to maintain currency?

No. Landing sims required, though it would have been smarter to let you pick up one turn every third month than putting additional burden on training.

That being said, if that's the only "slip up" in this product, given the time pressure they were under, it still gets an A+ in my book. Very comprehensive, very well thought out. Definitely a well executed strike while the iron was hot.

Saabs
03-16-2020, 07:20 AM
I think this is good news but worry about the costs the corporation takes on and how it will impact its future. I estimate this will cost about $2b to pay just the retirees assuming 4,000 take it over three years. This is a large cost that won't allow the company to adequately compete against the ULCC's whom I fear will gain a substantial foothold after this. Spirit is by far my largest worry.

I guess what I'm saying is, I worry AA will become what US Airways was...a slowly dying carrier not able to compete due to overburdened costs.

I'm not trying to be negative but I think it's also important to take a bigger picture.
youíve assumed X amount of pilots take it but havenít accounted that the company will only offer Y amount of slots.

Dumpy
03-16-2020, 07:22 AM
Hopefully it is enough, but the year long LOA suggests that they already know that they'll end up with a group who'll need long term training when they come back. Obviously they want to pick some off the top of the list to minimize multiple layers of displacements. Still, it feels like only the first step in an overall reduction...

Itsajob
03-16-2020, 07:27 AM
The reason I asked I heard rumors that not enough pilots took the 50-hour-stay-at-home option.

The initial 50 hour option went pretty senior at United. They came out a day or two ago saying that more unpaid leaves and 50 hr lines would be offered for April. Now that weíve announced a 50% reduction, itís anyoneís guess as to what happens next.

Armyguy
03-16-2020, 08:02 AM
So for the 55 hr guys, is currency going to be maintained in the sim?

Yes, this is great work by everyone involved, but as mentioned above, what happens when they don't get enough takers. I know what I'd do if I were a 62 yo not sure if I wanted to go to 65, but what about everyone else banking on the next guy volunteering for the 55hr deal?

Enough takers? Maybe I live in a bubble but I would think EVERY pilot would apply. I know I will. I have already applied to a couple of non airline flying jobs and might take the year off without pay option because I cant see the paid option coming my way (13500 seniority)

seafeye
03-16-2020, 08:57 AM
How low will they go? Iíll take 6 months. Or 3. But not sure it will come down as low as me. 12,000

sumwherelse
03-16-2020, 09:02 AM
I think all of these go pretty senior.

Cicada
03-16-2020, 09:22 AM
I think this is good news but worry about the costs the corporation takes on and how it will impact its future. I estimate this will cost about $2b to pay just the retirees assuming 4,000 take it over three years. This is a large cost that won't allow the company to adequately compete against the ULCC's whom I fear will gain a substantial foothold after this. Spirit is by far my largest worry.

I guess what I'm saying is, I worry AA will become what US Airways was...a slowly dying carrier not able to compete due to overburdened costs.

I'm not trying to be negative but I think it's also important to take a bigger picture.

The big picture is this: why are you concerned when the idiots running this place blew how many BILLIONS on stock. Any relief you give, they destroy. This is all about the pilots. Take care of the pilots. Protect your fellow employees. They then, can single engine taxi or do whatever later. Save the pilots!
Stephen Wolf killed Airways doing stock buybacks as well. That's the common theme of both carriers. Fatal decisions by CEO s to burn billions on failed stock purchases. US and AA. Pilots cannot save the company from management stupidity killing airlines.
Look after us. First and always.

TankerDriver
03-16-2020, 10:13 AM
If you bothered to read the LOA, it clearly answers that question...

So yes, I did bother to read the LOA. The confusion came from reading the initial APA email which says, "Pilots on VSTLOA will be required to maintain currency, but will have no other flying obligations".

Page 3 of the LOA:

"Pilots on VSTLOA are required to be qualified to fly on the first day following the VSTLOA. Thus, pilots will be obligated to complete required Distance Learning, to attend CQT as awarded or assigned in the CQT bidding process, and pilots who lose currency will be required to schedule a takeoff and landing simulator session prior to the end of the VSTLOA."

As per the email, "maintaining currency", depending on one's currency expiration date, means that pilot may need to go to the simulator possibly twice in a 6-month period, in addition to CQT, if required. However, after reading the LOA, it seems like a pilot on VSTLOA can go non-current, not be in a CQT window during his/her 6-mo VSTLOA and needs to be current before ending the VSTLOA. Two different things, but anyway... now that is clarified.

PRS Guitars
03-16-2020, 10:18 AM
I'm definitely bidding for the 55 month one. I can't imagine who wouldn't.

Iím leaning that way, but itís not a no brainer to me. My logic, having been out in the airports and highly exposed already plus the rest of the month, and with a health care worker wife who is highly exposed, one of us is likely to catch this in the next 2 weeks (Iím taking precautions, but seems futile for our exposure level). Then, weíd be better off having had a full schedule and getting the pay protection. Also, it might be better to earn more while the company is still able to stay afloat, if they go BK or Furlough, you wonít be paid at all regardless of what you select.

What is your reasoning for thinking this is an easy decision (and realize you are in a much better position financially than most)?

texaspilot76
03-16-2020, 10:22 AM
So anyone here biting on this? If I could afford to I would. Iím sure the ďearly retirementĒ leave would be the last the company would offer since there is no going back from either party. If offered, you would think anyone 64+ would take it and run, though some that are widebody may just camp out and collect rsv guarantee at 73/76 knowing they will never fly.

It appears that the company is gambling that this will be easing come summer. If that gamble pays off, we will be way ahead of Delta and United if they furlough.

121PyLut
03-16-2020, 10:32 AM
So anyone here biting on this? If I could afford to I would. Iím sure the ďearly retirementĒ leave would be the last the company would offer since there is no going back from either party. If offered, you would think anyone 64+ would take it and run, though some that are widebody may just camp out and collect rsv guarantee at 73/76 knowing they will never fly.

It appears that the company is gambling that this will be easing come summer. If that gamble pays off, we will be way ahead of Delta and United if they furlough.

I've got a lot of questions, but I'm considering it.

Arado 234
03-16-2020, 10:38 AM
I've got a lot of questions, but I'm considering it.

One of those questions is where to sign up for it. My CPO is clueless and I don't see anything yet on a aapilots.

TankerDriver
03-16-2020, 10:53 AM
It would be nice to know how many pilots they realistically need to support predicted load factors before the F-bomb is dropped. It'd also be nice if this was broken up for each base and in each aircraft. I know that's probably a ginormous amount of data crunching to expect, but obviously they can't let everyone go from one base or the other and they definitely don't want to have to displace and retrain.

biigD
03-16-2020, 10:56 AM
How low will they go? Iíll take 6 months. Or 3. But not sure it will come down as low as me. 12,000

It sounds to me like youíd be bidding against others in your bid status, so your overall seniority isnít really the driving factor.

121PyLut
03-16-2020, 11:06 AM
One of those questions is where to sign up for it. My CPO is clueless and I don't see anything yet on a aapilots.

I imagine we will get more guidance in the next few days?? I thought of calling the union, but I know they will just give me the, "we're working out the details" type of answer. I imagine they are pretty busy working out the details. Time will tell.

Name User
03-16-2020, 11:23 AM
I’m leaning that way, but it’s not a no brainer to me. My logic, having been out in the airports and highly exposed already plus the rest of the month, and with a health care worker wife who is highly exposed, one of us is likely to catch this in the next 2 weeks (I’m taking precautions, but seems futile for our exposure level). Then, we’d be better off having had a full schedule and getting the pay protection. Also, it might be better to earn more while the company is still able to stay afloat, if they go BK or Furlough, you won’t be paid at all regardless of what you select.

What is your reasoning for thinking this is an easy decision (and realize you are in a much better position financially than most)?

I don't think the after tax amount for me (FO) will make much of a long term difference. About $2300/month. Work a full schedule for $2300? I'm super cheap and a money ***** but that sounds inefficient.

I would've liked to see, since they've cut flying in half, 35 hour months instead. And you have to work for it. Paying people to sit home seems like the wrong message to send. Although probably not possible because it's the WB stuff that was cut the most. I dunno. It just feels like the best thing to do is keep everyone making something, heck even 35 hours is $4000/month after taxes for FOs, which is considerably more than you will probably make once the recession starts to hit.

RhinoBallAuto
03-16-2020, 12:11 PM
One of those questions is where to sign up for it. My CPO is clueless and I don't see anything yet on a aapilots.

if my read of the agreement is correct, theyíve only settled on the mechanics of the three flavors of leave, if and when the company decides to offer them. My guess is they wonít offer anything until about 2-3 weeks prior to PBS run for the month theyíre considering offering the leaves. It will obviously impact the PBS Plannersí efforts before any given month

AFTrainerGuy
03-16-2020, 12:30 PM
Iím leaning that way, but itís not a no brainer to me. My logic, having been out in the airports and highly exposed already plus the rest of the month, and with a health care worker wife who is highly exposed, one of us is likely to catch this in the next 2 weeks (Iím taking precautions, but seems futile for our exposure level). Then, weíd be better off having had a full schedule and getting the pay protection. Also, it might be better to earn more while the company is still able to stay afloat, if they go BK or Furlough, you wonít be paid at all regardless of what you select.

What is your reasoning for thinking this is an easy decision (and realize you are in a much better position financially than most)?

well Iím a one income family and definetly not rich (I had to run just in case furlough projections of savings vs bills like everyone else) and I came to conclusion that Iíll bid it in a second. Reasoning... unless Iím outta a job, I doubt Iíll ever have opportunity to have that much time off again paid in the summer. May Iím not gonna be able to travel in next 2 months, but if I can get a leave (55 paid) long enough to get summer off, Iíll load up kids and dogs in truck and trailer and do a 8 week mega National Park tour.

I donít see this getting as low as my seniority though (11500 ish)

AFTrainerGuy
03-16-2020, 12:50 PM
The big picture is this: why are you concerned when the idiots running this place blew how many BILLIONS on stock. Any relief you give, they destroy. This is all about the pilots. Take care of the pilots. Protect your fellow employees. They then, can single engine taxi or do whatever later. Save the pilots!
Stephen Wolf killed Airways doing stock buybacks as well. That's the common theme of both carriers. Fatal decisions by CEO s to burn billions on failed stock purchases. US and AA. Pilots cannot save the company from management stupidity killing airlines.
Look after us. First and always.

just to be fair, TRILLIONS of stock was bought back just in USA in last 10 years. Close to 900 billion in 2018 alone. Boeing did 43 billion all by themselves. It is stupid and short sighted. No question. But, it was just the normal thing to do for the last few years and we (the airlines) didnít get close to leading the pack in amount now ďblownĒ.

Rockiepilot
03-16-2020, 01:31 PM
well Iím a one income family and definetly not rich (I had to run just in case furlough projections of savings vs bills like everyone else) and I came to conclusion that Iíll bid it in a second. Reasoning... unless Iím outta a job, I doubt Iíll ever have opportunity to have that much time off again paid in the summer. May Iím not gonna be able to travel in next 2 months, but if I can get a leave (55 paid) long enough to get summer off, Iíll load up kids and dogs in truck and trailer and do a 8 week mega National Park tour.

I donít see this getting as low as my seniority though (11500 ish)

Exactly. Cut that cable bill. Down size the bills and enjoy something you canít replace; time. That time with your family is something you canít replace.

Armyguy
03-16-2020, 01:36 PM
Will the unpaid loa go junior? Thats what I am hoping

Name User
03-16-2020, 01:42 PM
Will the unpaid loa go junior? Thats what I am hoping
A voluntary furlough? Yeah I'm thinking so :)

Cicada
03-16-2020, 02:01 PM
just to be fair, TRILLIONS of stock was bought back just in USA in last 10 years. Close to 900 billion in 2018 alone. Boeing did 43 billion all by themselves. It is stupid and short sighted. No question. But, it was just the normal thing to do for the last few years and we (the airlines) didn’t get close to leading the pack in amount now “blown”.


You do not blow free cash in the airline industry. Period. And as an airline pilot, you always need to have a big slush fund. No excuses.
Doug Parker has been in this industry a long time. He knows better. Most every pilot at AA expressed concern over this, as they know what can happen. Parker kept right on going.
Something always goes wrong in this industry which puts it in crisis that is ALWAYS worse than the average company. Airlines need a tremendous amount of cash reserves for the unforeseen. It's something new every time. Stock buybacks in airlines don't work. Parker saw Stephen Wolf put USAirways in BK over this exact thing. Blowing it on an over the top new headquarters is another horrible move. Get ready for pain as a result. I speak as a three time airline BK " survivor"
Good luck to everyone.

PS- Gerry Glass (F&H Solutions)is on the payroll. Look them up. Lots of us here were part of the "solution." Losing your pension is part of the solution according to these boys. Don't worry A funders. There are lots of Airways and TWA people who can fill you in on the PBGC. This is only round 1 of what they are going to go for. Expect several more asks coming because this does not solve the cash burn taking place. They are going to up the pressure like you've never experienced in your career. Federal aid is going to be contingent on employees taking big hits to W-2. You are going to get pressured top to bottom on this.
Mark my words.

TQ Nola
03-16-2020, 02:04 PM
I'm in the top half of 777 FOs at JFK. I'll be all over the 6 month LOA if it gets to me. I have no bills, ymmv

Speed Select
03-16-2020, 02:51 PM
Were your military pilots offered any dispensation on the USERRA five-year limit (suspending the USERRA clock) as part of this LOA?

JulesWinfield
03-17-2020, 04:15 AM
The big picture is this: why are you concerned when the idiots running this place blew how many BILLIONS on stock. Any relief you give, they destroy. This is all about the pilots. Take care of the pilots. Protect your fellow employees. They then, can single engine taxi or do whatever later. Save the pilots!
Stephen Wolf killed Airways doing stock buybacks as well. That's the common theme of both carriers. Fatal decisions by CEO s to burn billions on failed stock purchases. US and AA. Pilots cannot save the company from management stupidity killing airlines.
Look after us. First and always.

So much this.

GhettoJet
03-17-2020, 04:20 AM
You do not blow free cash in the airline industry. Period. And as an airline pilot, you always need to have a big slush fund. No excuses.
Doug Parker has been in this industry a long time. He knows better. Most every pilot at AA expressed concern over this, as they know what can happen. Parker kept right on going.
Something always goes wrong in this industry which puts it in crisis that is ALWAYS worse than the average company. Airlines need a tremendous amount of cash reserves for the unforeseen. It's something new every time. Stock buybacks in airlines don't work. Parker saw Stephen Wolf put USAirways in BK over this exact thing. Blowing it on an over the top new headquarters is another horrible move. Get ready for pain as a result. I speak as a three time airline BK " survivor"
Good luck to everyone.

PS- Gerry Glass (F&H Solutions)is on the payroll. Look them up. Lots of us here were part of the "solution." Losing your pension is part of the solution according to these boys. Don't worry A funders. There are lots of Airways and TWA people who can fill you in on the PBGC. This is only round 1 of what they are going to go for. Expect several more asks coming because this does not solve the cash burn taking place. They are going to up the pressure like you've never experienced in your career. Federal aid is going to be contingent on employees taking big hits to W-2. You are going to get pressured top to bottom on this.
Mark my words.

This is always how it plays out. The kids who were in diapers or high school in the 80s,90s, and after 9-11 don't have a frame of reference to even understand how this is going to play out.

DCDriver
03-17-2020, 05:52 AM
This is always how it plays out. The kids who were in diapers or high school in the 80s,90s, and after 9-11 don't have a frame of reference to even understand how this is going to play out.

Check your math, many of us young whipper snappers (30yoís) on your list have been through 9/11, 2007/8 recession, SARís, regional whipsaw, etc....Just sayin. Hopefully, everyone is prepared. Some will definitely will not. The ones that take the deal will alleviate others. I fully expect more pain to come. JG is heartless

Cicada
03-17-2020, 05:59 AM
Check your math, many of us young whipper snappers (30yo’s) on your list have been through 9/11, 2007/8 recession, SAR’s, regional whipsaw, etc....Just sayin. Hopefully, everyone is prepared. Some will definitely will not. The ones that take the deal will alleviate others. I fully expect more pain to come. JG is heartless



The Lost Decade crushed a lot of the young guys for sure.

AllYourBaseAreB
03-17-2020, 08:29 AM
Yeah, this could easily be the 2nd or 3rd furlough for guys in their mid 30ís. Even worse for guys in their 40ís that started in 98/01

kingairfun
03-17-2020, 10:25 AM
Yeah, this could easily be the 2nd or 3rd furlough for guys in their mid 30ís. Even worse for guys in their 40ís that started in 98/01

I fall into the latter, 20 yrs and just finally hitting 50% on a seniority list... What worries me is all the 20 and young 30 somethings that had a meteoric rise to a Major.. 2 yrs of instructing, 2 yrs of regional and straight to Mainline. They haven't experienced the past. And don't fully know the extent management will go or the playbook they will follow.

I always cringe when I see a relatively newer guy go onto 2nd or 3rd yr. pay and start buying Tesla's, Porshe's, fancy watches, or expensive homes....It took me almost 16 yrs to feel comfortable enough to buy a $30k classic car as the Capt. toy.

TankerDriver
03-17-2020, 11:39 AM
So has anyone out flying the line gotten a feel about how many people may be interested in these options. Looks like the word on the street is that Delta has gotten 20% of their flight attendants to go on LOA's, best flight attendants risk of exposure to this is a little bit greater than ours so there were probably some health concerns for a lot of the older ones.

AllYourBaseAreB
03-17-2020, 12:08 PM
4 years from CFI to Major????? What are there, like 5 of those guys at AA....?

bababouey
03-17-2020, 12:13 PM
So has anyone out flying the line gotten a feel about how many people may be interested in these options. Looks like the word on the street is that Delta has gotten 20% of their flight attendants to go on LOA's, best flight attendants risk of exposure to this is a little bit greater than ours so there were probably some health concerns for a lot of the older ones.


Anecdotal but just did a 4 day, Iím putting in for a 3 monther and the Capt is doing a 6er. Based on a lot of guys I know, there will be significant interest in the 62+ retirement, but Iím on a narrow body and I doubt that is the target audience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FetaCheese
03-17-2020, 01:11 PM
Anecdotal but just did a 4 day, Iím putting in for a 3 monther and the Capt is doing a 6er. Based on a lot of guys I know, there will be significant interest in the 62+ retirement, but Iím on a narrow body and I doubt that is the target audience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Still..the raw numbers add up and that's what's important. If X amount of people take any of the leaves, regardless of where they fall on the seniority ladder, that's X amount of fewer pilots that would need to be furloughed. This will probably mitigate that need entirely. Especially if travel loads start ticking back up by the end of summer.

TankerDriver
03-17-2020, 02:28 PM
Anecdotal but just did a 4 day, Iím putting in for a 3 monther and the Capt is doing a 6er. Based on a lot of guys I know, there will be significant interest in the 62+ retirement, but Iím on a narrow body and I doubt that is the target audience.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkGood to hear. Whether this is working in peoples' favor or not, I am glad to see there are people willing to "take one for the team".

I believe Delta is adjusting ALV's in addition to LOA's. Would this be something we'd want to implement?

seafeye
03-17-2020, 02:34 PM
Taking bets on the number of early retirements American Airlines will allow.
100?
250?
500?
1000?

How many 6 month slots?
10?
100?
1000?
2000?

3 month slots?
100?
.....

chrisreedrules
03-17-2020, 02:40 PM
Still..the raw numbers add up and that's what's important. If X amount of people take any of the leaves, regardless of where they fall on the seniority ladder, that's X amount of fewer pilots that would need to be furloughed. This will probably mitigate that need entirely. Especially if travel loads start ticking back up by the end of summer.

I hope youíre right. They are starting to talk about this event in terms of years now, not months. 24-36 month fallout from the ripple effect. Millions will lose their jobs. Mortgages will be defaulted on. Businesses will close their doors. The demand for travel simply wonít be what it was even a couple months ago.

How long do you expect the federal government to continue to bail airlines out? How many tens of billions will it take if this is a 18+ month event where revenues have fallen by 25-35% /month on average? I hope Iím wrong. But this is going to get uglier and the ďleversĒ our federal government can pull to stave off a recession are few.

texaspilot76
03-17-2020, 02:54 PM
Just talked to a CA with 4 months left. Heís gonna do it. My guess is most those with less than 6 months will take the early out.

mtow410
03-17-2020, 04:07 PM
Just talked to a CA with 4 months left. Heís gonna do it. My guess is most those with less than 6 months will take the early out.

my guess is nobody with 4 months left will be allowed to take it

Name User
03-17-2020, 04:40 PM
my guess is nobody with 4 months left will be allowed to take it
I was thinking the opposite, especially if they are on the 76, 77, or 78.

Andrew_VT
03-17-2020, 05:57 PM
my guess is nobody with 4 months left will be allowed to take it
The next 4 months is when they are the surest that they'll be overstaffed

Name User
03-17-2020, 06:12 PM
The next 4 months is when they are the surest that they'll be overstaffed

On a side note we just increased LOAs to 12 months for other work groups too.

FlyyGuyy
03-17-2020, 06:21 PM
On a side note we just increased LOAs to 12 months for other work groups too.
I think this is to be expected. Why would you only try to lean one group?

Name User
03-17-2020, 07:30 PM
I think this is to be expected. Why would you only try to lean one group?
No, they extended the LOAs. As in, they don't think this is gonna get any better, for at least that amount of time.