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View Full Version : It's been fun


nibake
03-16-2020, 02:08 PM
Any more of this reckless "caution" from authorities and I will be out of work. At least that's the feeling I'm getting from the increasingly ominous-sounding emails. It feels akin to a person being euthanized in order to dull the pain of a stubbed toe. Let's hope sanity returns and fast. I doubt Delta is going to share its bail-out with us. :(


EhV8R
03-16-2020, 02:36 PM
I'm already getting my plan B ducks lined up with old employers. Hope it doesn't come to that, but as you said, each email from management sounds less optimistic than the last. I'm literally the 6th from the bottom of the entire pilot group seniority, so if the "f" word happens, I'll be the first out the door and the last let back in.

maverickchill
03-16-2020, 04:30 PM
Hopefully sunny can bounce back quickly after everyone figures out how ridiculous this whole thing is, and the impact it's had and is going to have on everyone. I hope it doesn't last much longer, many people will be dipping into their savings and it will take that much longer to get the "leisure" travelers back.


apex7
03-16-2020, 05:12 PM
Hopefully sunny can bounce back quickly after everyone figures out how ridiculous this whole thing is, and the impact it's had and is going to have on everyone. I hope it doesn't last much longer, many people will be dipping into their savings and it will take that much longer to get the "leisure" travelers back.

Savings? :confused: Who has savings.Those are non existent for most of the population. Everything runs on Credit.

Unless Judo can turn this entire airline into a Cargo operation, we are all going to be on the streets in a matter of days.

Hope I'm wrong.

PiperPower
03-16-2020, 06:03 PM
Geez. Calm down. Itís way too fluid of a situation to act like you know whatís going to happen. I know itís hard to be positive, but sheesh. Give it a minute.

Onedayatatimee
03-18-2020, 03:07 AM
Anyone wanna guess on how much of hair cut (pay cut) is coming??

nibake
03-18-2020, 04:44 AM
What's 60% of minimum wage?

[/sarcasm] ...kinda

apex7
03-18-2020, 06:04 AM
Where is everyone getting a 60% pay cut from ? The email said 60% of normal hourly schedules. That equates to 42 hours per month if your using a 70 hour average.

go look at the link below or visit the MN unemployment website to estimate your unemployment benefits. It tells you what you would get on unemployment. Max payout is just over $700 per week, so for many of us thatís a lot less than taking their offer.

https://www1.uimn.org/ui_applicant/benefits/monetary/premonetary/calculatePremonetary.do?init=true&action.calculatePremonetary.initApplicant.null=tru e

Onedayatatimee
03-18-2020, 06:25 AM
Where is everyone getting a 60% pay cut from ? The email said 60% of normal hourly schedules. That equates to 42 hours per month if your using a 70 hour average.

go look at the link below or visit the MN unemployment website to estimate your unemployment benefits. It tells you what you would get on unemployment. Max payout is just over $700 per week, so for many of us thatís a lot less than taking their offer.

https://www1.uimn.org/ui_applicant/benefits/monetary/premonetary/calculatePremonetary.do?init=true&action.calculatePremonetary.initApplicant.null=tru e

I think he was referencing the email saying company looking for 40% reduction in cost.

So 60% pay of 100% is a 40% pay cut. The minimum wage line I think was a shot at our already low pay compared to our peers ??

apex7
03-18-2020, 06:39 AM
I think he was referencing the email saying company looking for 40% reduction in cost.

So 60% pay of 100% is a 40% pay cut. The minimum wage line I think was a shot at our already low pay compared to our peers ??

Yeah I get it. We shouldn't be worried at all what anyone else is earning right now. Just preserve the company and try to keep everyone employed.

At the same time this is something completely bigger than " Just the airlines" Every industry in the world is having a meltdown besides maybe the medical profession and some others. If we go down, there will be millions that go down with us. I personally had no idea that airlines run on such thin margins where if income is stopped for 4-6 weeks the entire operation shuts down.

Onedayatatimee
03-19-2020, 02:38 AM
Hopefully we Find out today what the plan is for the next month from the union and the company.

It sounds like the big stimulus package that would bail out the airlines is still being worked on in Washington. Senators have been saying they want strings attached to any help such as not laying off employees and employees still receiving full pay.

My question is If we agree to less pay (reduces line value from 70 guarantee) to help the company ahead of this stimulus being passed and the company then pursues a grant or loan from the government after the stimulus passes in the next few days do we grandfather back to current book full pay as the senators described they wanted as part of the terms??

If we are taking a pay cut to buy Jude a month or two and he furloughs us anyway the pay cut could reduce what we are entitled to in unemployment (50% off your weekly income up to $740 per week for 26months currently in MN).

Are we getting ahead of our skis to early on this. Should the company and the union wait to see what the government comes up with to help the airlines??

What if we agree to cuts today and next week the government announces parking all the domestic flying for 30days starting April 1st to slow down the spread of COVID19. And the government says they will pick up the tab on the shutdown. In that scenario would we get our agreed to 42hr line value or grandfather back to 70hr guarantee??

Just some scenarios Iíve thought about. Iíd be curious to get anyone elseís thoughts or opinions on this?

sidelinesam
03-19-2020, 10:22 AM
Since the company has been making record profits the last couple of years I have a hard time feeling like we should be giving up 40% of our credit! They're going to get bailed out and what will we have to show for it? I'm guessing NOTHING.

Have Jude and the rest of the senior management team taken a pay cut to help the cause? I haven't heard anything.

Color me skeptical... We agree to cuts for no furloughs. Two months later the company says we're still too expensive and furloughs anyway. This whole situation stinks to no end.

Onedayatatimee
03-19-2020, 10:42 AM
Since the company has been making record profits the last couple of years I have a hard time feeling like we should be giving up 40% of our credit! They're going to get bailed out and what will we have to show for it? I'm guessing NOTHING.

Have Jude and the rest of the senior management team taken a pay cut to help the cause? I haven't heard anything.

Color me skeptical... We agree to cuts for no furloughs. Two months later the company says we're still too expensive and furloughs anyway. This whole situation stinks to no end.

Well said, I totally agree with you on this.

If Judeís plan is to idle the company for 30-60days and reassess. The full pilot salary is the least of his worries at that point. Either the government is helping keep the lights on or Apollo is pumping a bunch of money into it (use the profits from the past two years).

I agree based on the profits heís made there should be a rainy day fund to ride it out for a month or two instead of coming to labor for 40% reduction.

Iím not necessarily a full pay to the last day guy. At some point it might make sense to help save the company vs get in the unemployment line but I havenít seen enough facts yet from the union or the company to justify bailing them out with our salary.

just hope the union is being careful and not giving them the farm. Good group of guys in ALPA I got faith.

j298
03-19-2020, 03:19 PM
We are going to be the first wholly-owned Amazon carrier. You heard it here first!

nibake
03-19-2020, 03:42 PM
That would classify as being bought under "bad circumstances"

I don't like it, but it looks like my predictions are going to be coming true. Here's hoping the adversity is short-lived.

apex7
03-19-2020, 06:00 PM
We are going to be the first wholly-owned Amazon carrier. You heard it here first!

At this point that would be amazing, Iíll take flying boxes and a paycheck over being on the street. No one is going to get jobs for months if not years after this...

maverickchill
03-19-2020, 06:23 PM
No one is going to get jobs for months if not years after this...

Hopefully it doesn't come to that. My guess is once everyone gets bored at home and realizes that everyone is already infected, only showing mild symptoms, they will start going about their normal routine. Could be only a matter of a few days.

Our Trans States and Compass friends still need help. This government conspiracy to take all our money from the stock market once again needs to end.

Alexander12
03-19-2020, 07:49 PM
Hopefully it doesn't come to that. My guess is once everyone gets bored at home and realizes that everyone is already infected, only showing mild symptoms, they will start going about their normal routine. Could be only a matter of a few days.

Our Trans States and Compass friends still need help. This government conspiracy to take all our money from the stock market once again needs to end.
Please edit an /s to the end of this before anyone else reads it

jcool734
03-20-2020, 01:27 AM
We are going to be the first wholly-owned Amazon carrier. You heard it here first!


Is the legit. I thought about this but is this a reality with SY


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nibake
03-20-2020, 05:39 AM
No, it's speculation. Not far-fetched, but speculation.

I expect the axe to fall by the end of the day today, I'm already looking for work.

ropestart
03-20-2020, 09:06 AM
No, it's speculation. Not far-fetched, but speculation.

I expect the axe to fall by the end of the day today, I'm already looking for work.

Hoping the best for you guys. Hate to see this happen.

apex7
03-20-2020, 11:22 AM
Iím sure most of us would much rather take a furlough and have the chance to come back to the company , versus they keep us on property and the company slowly bleeds cash?

for some guys here in there 50s if sun country shuts down they will never see $202 an hour in their careers again. Just a thought. Iíd rather take 0 pay now even for a few months/year than start all over. Itís gonna be near impossible to get employed anywhere after this.

ablack722
03-20-2020, 04:30 PM
Iím sure most of us would much rather take a furlough and have the chance to come back to the company , versus they keep us on property and the company slowly bleeds cash?

for some guys here in there 50s if sun country shuts down they will never see $202 an hour in their careers again. Just a thought. Iíd rather take 0 pay now even for a few months/year than start all over. Itís gonna be near impossible to get employed anywhere after this.

Are you serious? Have you ever been furloughed?

ablack722
03-20-2020, 04:31 PM
Iím sure most of us would much rather take a furlough and have the chance to come back to the company , versus they keep us on property and the company slowly bleeds cash?

for some guys here in there 50s if sun country shuts down they will never see $202 an hour in their careers again. Just a thought. Iíd rather take 0 pay now even for a few months/year than start all over. Itís gonna be near impossible to get employed anywhere after this.

Are you serious? Have you ever been furloughed?

sidelinesam
03-20-2020, 07:21 PM
Are you serious? Have you ever been furloughed?

I can see where Apex is going with that post. And I think it's a good, valid point.

Yes, being furloughed sucks and it is not fun. But it's also not the end of the world.

I've been furloughed and I remember being distraught and devastated. But looking back
at it more than a decade later I know that life went on and I made the best of the situation.

Mandrake
03-20-2020, 09:06 PM
Iím sure most of us would much rather take a furlough and have the chance to come back to the company , versus they keep us on property and the company slowly bleeds cash?

for some guys here in there 50s if sun country shuts down they will never see $202 an hour in their careers again. Just a thought. Iíd rather take 0 pay now even for a few months/year than start all over. Itís gonna be near impossible to get employed anywhere after this.

Spirit is upgrading guys in 2 years and 8 months at that same rate. And thatís not necessarily pre China Virus because upgrades are still being awarded.

apex7
03-20-2020, 10:43 PM
Are you serious? Have you ever been furloughed?

No I have not, but Iím willing to take it over having to start over and thatís something guys who have been here for 5+ years should seriously consider. Do you think people are going to be flying again in 2-3 months at the same capacity we were running?

305808
03-21-2020, 01:12 AM
Iím sure most of us would much rather take a furlough and have the chance to come back to the company , versus they keep us on property and the company slowly bleeds cash?

for some guys here in there 50s if sun country shuts down they will never see $202 an hour in their careers again. Just a thought. Iíd rather take 0 pay now even for a few months/year than start all over. Itís gonna be near impossible to get employed anywhere after this.

you can volunteer for a VLOA. Lead by example. I agree that being seniority number less in a couple months will suck.

Onedayatatimee
03-21-2020, 09:23 AM
Seems like the union talking to the company might be premature at this point. Why donít we wait and see what sort of aid the government is willing to provide in the stimulus package. Upper management may be able to keep the lights on for 30-60days with full pay for the front line employees.

jcool734
03-21-2020, 09:24 AM
Seems like the union talking to the company might be premature at this point. Why donít we wait and see what sort of aid the government is willing to provide in the stimulus package. Upper management may be able to keep the lights on for 30-60days with full pay for the front line employees.


Itís more like they are about to hang them to dry


Apollo has made it clear, their policy is to NEVER support a failing business. They cut losses instantly if they need to.

If they foresee us dying, they will shut down the airline, liquidate all assets, and fire every employee.

We donít get to ask daddy for help on this one.

We need to solve the current crisis as a group. Weíre all in this together, and weíve all got to be prepared for tough times ahead, in order to survive.

Thatís from Sun Country. Email was sent out.


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Onedayatatimee
03-21-2020, 10:26 AM
Itís more like they are about to hang them to dry


Apollo has made it clear, their policy is to NEVER support a failing business. They cut losses instantly if they need to.

If they foresee us dying, they will shut down the airline, liquidate all assets, and fire every employee.

We donít get to ask daddy for help on this one.

We need to solve the current crisis as a group. Weíre all in this together, and weíve all got to be prepared for tough times ahead, in order to survive.

Thatís from Sun Country. Email was sent out.


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I donít disagree with you that it may need to be saved by all labor groups including management at some point. I just personally feel we need to wait for more facts and give this time to breath before we give them the farm.

Itís a big stimulus they are negotiating in Washington. Trump even said in his press conference today that the economy was great before this and it will pop right back after. He said this is a huge stimulus that will basically compensate people not to work while this virus runs its course.

This is nothing we have seen before and the government wants to do the right thing so businesses can bounce back on their feet quickly. We should see what those details are before we agree to pay cuts. Just my opinion and Iím not saying Iím right. I totally feel at a point in time labor providing cuts may be necessary but as of Friday and this weekend I think we are in limbo waiting to see the government help and itís terms.

jcool734
03-21-2020, 10:29 AM
I donít disagree with you that it may need to be saved by all labor groups including management at some point. I just personally feel we need to wait for more facts and give this time to breath before we give them the farm.

Itís a big stimulus they are negotiating in Washington. Trump even said in his press conference today that the economy was great before this and it will pop right back after. He said this is a huge stimulus that will basically compensate people not to work while this virus runs its course.

This is nothing we have scene before and the government wants to do the right thing so businesses can bounce back on their feet quickly. We should see what those details are before we agree to pay cuts. Just my opinion and Iím not saying Iím right. I totally feel at a point in time labor providing cuts may be necessary but as of Friday and this weekend I think we are in limbo waiting to see the government help and itís terms.


Stimulus is only for majors

Many at the regionals that I knwo have said the majors made it clear the bail out is for the majors which is terrifying


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Onedayatatimee
03-21-2020, 10:45 AM
Stimulus is only for majors

Many at the regionals that I knwo have said the majors made it clear the bail out is for the majors which is terrifying


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We will find out probably Monday or Tuesday if thatís true regarding no stimulus for Sun Country.

I would like to think our senators in MN are working on it. At least 1000 good paying jobs in MN they hate to see go away.

The company has been successful enough the last two years to have a slush fund saved up to get through the next two months. Where ever that money is hiding itís out there somewhere not the pilots job to find it.

The best plan for Sunny (in my opinion) is to park the passenger side for 30-60days and go from there. While the passenger side is idle the Amazon flying will start winding up. If management needs to furlough during those 30-60days then they can do that.

jcool734
03-21-2020, 10:53 AM
We will find out probably Monday or Tuesday if thatís true regarding no stimulus for Sun Country.

I would like to think our senators in MN are working on it. At least 1000 good paying jobs in MN they hate to see go away.

The company has been successful enough the last two years to have a slush fund saved up to get through the next two months. Where ever that money is hiding itís out there somewhere not the pilots job to find it.

The best plan for Sunny (in my opinion) is to park the passenger side for 30-60days and go from there. While the passenger side is idle the Amazon flying will start winding up. If management needs to furlough during those 30-60days then they can do that.


Makes sense. Supposedly the package is suppose to be ready tonight. Iím elating for our industry. This is terrifying!


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CaptainSlow
03-21-2020, 10:57 AM
The proposed senate version of the bill is posted online. The airline section is not that long. It says nothing about major vs regional. But it also doesnít say anything about grants....only secured loans.


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jcool734
03-21-2020, 10:59 AM
The proposed senate version of the bill is posted online. The airline section is not that long. It says nothing about major vs regional. But it also doesnít say anything about grants....only secured loans.


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When trump talks about it he only talks about the majors. But the regionals are the workforce and they flourished after 08. They kept the majors alive so they need to be included


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CaptainSlow
03-21-2020, 11:03 AM
I donít see anything that excludes the regionals. From inside the company, it sounds like the funds would be divided by ASM across the industry. I canít find anywhere that says that on public forum or that says over what period, however. The senate version also has limits to executive compensation for 2 years if the company accepts assistance. I didnít see anything about labor protections, which is what the House is balking at. Hopefully that gets fixed in their version or conference committee. Iíll post the link to the bill when I find it again.


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apex7
03-21-2020, 11:04 AM
Isnít sun country also the largest DoD carrier around? Or should I say ďwasĒ. Maybe we will get some flying from them once the need to move troops around becomes essential

jcool734
03-21-2020, 11:05 AM
I donít see anything that excludes the regionals. From inside the company, it sounds like the funds would be divided by ASM across the industry. I canít find anywhere that says that on public forum or that says over what period, however. The senate version also has limits to executive compensation for 2 years if the company accepts assistance. I didnít see anything about labor protections, which is what the House is balking at. Hopefully that gets fixed in their version or conference committee. Iíll post the link to the bill when I find it again.


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Well Apollo has said they canít ask for help so that makes me believe that they arnt part of the bail out


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CaptainSlow
03-21-2020, 11:12 AM
Here is the senate version of the bill. Page 84 is where the industry part starts:


https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CARES%20Act%20Final%20-%20Mar%202020.pdf


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apex7
03-21-2020, 11:20 AM
Here is the senate version of the bill. Page 84 is where the industry part starts:


https://www.republicanleader.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CARES%20Act%20Final%20-%20Mar%202020.pdf


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8 Billion for Cargo companies?! For what. They already said they have increased demand and these carriers are still hiring.

CaptainSlow
03-21-2020, 11:44 AM
8 Billion for Cargo companies?! For what. They already said they have increased demand and these carriers are still hiring.


Good question...but maybe we can double dip after we start the Amazon flying. /s


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Silver02ex
03-21-2020, 11:49 AM
Spirit is upgrading guys in 2 years and 8 months at that same rate. And thatís not necessarily pre China Virus because upgrades are still being awarded.

Interview and hiring have stop but not canceling classes. 2020 delivey will still keep going since we on the hook for it. Selling tickets for $18-$20 can only last so long.

j298
03-21-2020, 06:16 PM
I am told furloughs are likely coming. God only knows how far up theyíll go

jcool734
03-21-2020, 06:47 PM
I am told furloughs are likely coming. God only knows how far up theyíll go


I was just sent this


After several days of intense meetings with the Company aimed at finding a path forward that avoided furloughing pilots it appears that despite our best efforts, furloughs may now be imminent.

We had offered to take substantial pay cuts in the short term, in exchange for a return on that investment in the long term. The Company has indicated that they are simply focused on ways to be viable in the very near term.

Given these circumstances, we cannot see how making an investment of our wages is a viable risk. We simply heard no assurances that we would ever see those forgone wages again.

The timelines have not been finalized, however all indications are that reductions could happen quickly.

Incredibly, the Company seems to still be seeking government bailout money while thinking of putting their pilots on the street.

We encourage you to contact the offices of Sen. Amy Klobuchar (202-224-3244) and Sen. Tina Smith (202) 224-5641 and Gov. Tim Walz (651) 201-3400) and express your opposition to giving a government handout to a company that is putting their employees on the street and ask them to exert their influence to convince the Company to preserve these Minnesota jobs.

We plan to meet with the Company again on Monday afternoon to see if there is any path forward, however we need you all to know that as of late Saturday night furloughs seemed the likely outcome.

We don't know exactly when the Company intends to furlough pilots or how many, but our expectation is that given the economic situation with little to no market demand they will furlough to profitability, which could mean as little as a few to no active pilots on property.

We are sorry to bring you this sad news. Your MEC and negotiating committee have been working constantly to find a path forward that avoided furloughs. We felt that we had achieved a basic framework that would work for both sides. The Company, on Saturday night, rejected the bulk of that framework. They offered to send us their alternative plan for the path forward, but we aren't optimistic that it will have any of the things we think are necessary for a mutually beneficial deal.

We will, of course, update you with any new information as quickly as we can, but we wanted to get you this information as quickly as possible.

Stay United, Stay Informed, and Stay Healthy!

Brian, Eric, and Kevin


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apex7
03-21-2020, 07:04 PM
I was just sent this


After several days of intense meetings with the Company aimed at finding a path forward that avoided furloughing pilots it appears that despite our best efforts, furloughs may now be imminent.

We had offered to take substantial pay cuts in the short term, in exchange for a return on that investment in the long term. The Company has indicated that they are simply focused on ways to be viable in the very near term.

Given these circumstances, we cannot see how making an investment of our wages is a viable risk. We simply heard no assurances that we would ever see those forgone wages again.

The timelines have not been finalized, however all indications are that reductions could happen quickly.

Incredibly, the Company seems to still be seeking government bailout money while thinking of putting their pilots on the street.

We encourage you to contact the offices of Sen. Amy Klobuchar (202-224-3244) and Sen. Tina Smith (202) 224-5641 and Gov. Tim Walz (651) 201-3400) and express your opposition to giving a government handout to a company that is putting their employees on the street and ask them to exert their influence to convince the Company to preserve these Minnesota jobs.

We plan to meet with the Company again on Monday afternoon to see if there is any path forward, however we need you all to know that as of late Saturday night furloughs seemed the likely outcome.

We don't know exactly when the Company intends to furlough pilots or how many, but our expectation is that given the economic situation with little to no market demand they will furlough to profitability, which could mean as little as a few to no active pilots on property.

We are sorry to bring you this sad news. Your MEC and negotiating committee have been working constantly to find a path forward that avoided furloughs. We felt that we had achieved a basic framework that would work for both sides. The Company, on Saturday night, rejected the bulk of that framework. They offered to send us their alternative plan for the path forward, but we aren't optimistic that it will have any of the things we think are necessary for a mutually beneficial deal.

We will, of course, update you with any new information as quickly as we can, but we wanted to get you this information as quickly as possible.

Stay United, Stay Informed, and Stay Healthy!

Brian, Eric, and Kevin


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You know I was OK with them furloughing if it meant the airline survived but if they are asking for bailout money and going to still get rid of us? Absolutely not!:mad: I will take this to the news agencies who sure have a fun time discussing Sun Country

jcool734
03-21-2020, 07:05 PM
You know I was OK with them furloughing if it meant the airline survived but if they are asking for bailout money and going to still get rid of us? Absolutely not!:mad: I will take this to the news agencies who sure have a fun time discussing Sun Country


Praying for the sun country family


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ZR29907
03-21-2020, 07:12 PM
I was just sent this..

Given these circumstances, we cannot see how making an investment of our wages is a viable risk. We simply heard no assurances that we would ever see those forgone wages again,

And tell me the last time that a wage concession saved an airline. Answer: never. Full pay until the last day, you cant recover that kind of loss.

jcool734
03-21-2020, 07:13 PM
,

And tell me the last time that a wage concession saved an airline. Answer: never. Full pay until the last day, you cant recover that kind of loss.


Agreed


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maverickchill
03-21-2020, 07:15 PM
Furloughing pilots all the up to a few or none, AND asking for bailout money!!?? Why? What would be the point of getting money if you're no longer in the business of flying planes? Why would anyone want to work for a management team that would even consider that?

EffSY
03-21-2020, 07:15 PM
This airline is a complete POS. Seems like they have absolutely zero desire to go into the red to prevent all of their employees from doing the same.

jcool734
03-21-2020, 07:16 PM
This airline is a complete POS. Seems like they have absolutely zero desire to go into the red to prevent all of their employees from doing the same.


I would assume bail out or furlough you would thing


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apex7
03-21-2020, 07:17 PM
Please submit inquiries to all the news agencies, lets blow this up RIGHT NOW. Tell them how Sun Country wants to furlough and still ask the state/government for bailout money. I'm sure the community will be thrilled to pay our salaries in unemployment for the next few months

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/contact/

https://www.kare11.com/contact-us

Onedayatatimee
03-21-2020, 07:48 PM
You gotta remember this is high stakes and coming down to the wire. Congress getting close on reaching a stimulus deal. Iím guessing Sun Country is privy to inside knowledge on how itís looking for government aid. Must not be looking good right now.

ALPA reps thank you for your hard work this past week. Donít cave to any cuts with out a return on investment.

I personally donít think we need to give them anything. The money is there to keep the lights on for two months with employees fully paid as COVID 19 situation works its self out. If after two months things are still dyer then we can talk giving relief.

Let them furlough, they donít want to shut it down permanently, passenger flying will come back eventually and the core business ď10 up to 25 Amazon birdsĒ is still there. Taking big cuts with nothing in return would be a huge mistake. Will take years to recoup. We would be doing Jude a favor twice by saving him money on not having to furlough and providing him even cheaper labor then he has already enjoyed the last 2-3yrs.

CaptainSlow
03-21-2020, 07:52 PM
^ this. Itís a hard truth, but well said.


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senecacaptain
03-21-2020, 07:54 PM
Watching from the sidelines, I am not surprised they act like this. Dollars over people. Apollo Private Equity "invested" in Sun Country to make a return on their investment, which now appears unlikely. If you look at their website they call it an "opportunistic buy out." Now it appears to be "more work than it is worth" and here we are today. Cut expenses, shave costs.

It appears the gameplan from Day-1 was to IPO the company, let the stock price rise, and make a huge return in their investment, having "repaired" Sun Country and cleaned things up. Now, with the market crashing, this plan has been **** canned and Apollo management has probably asked each "now what do we do with this investment that has no chance or profitability (for us) anytime soon."

I would highly doubt they participate in any government bailout, as that would handcuff them to the federal government, additional regulation and compliance, and other stuff. Free cash, sure. But we know that is not likely (cash).

Apollo's stock price has taken a huge hit, and they may be under pressure from their own share holders to tidy things up.

https://stockcharts.com/c-sc/sc?s=AINV&p=D&yr=0&mn=6&dy=0&i=t8685673963c&r=1584848182627

https://www.apollo.com/our-business/private-equity

$$ over people

majorpilot
03-21-2020, 08:12 PM
The proposed senate version of the bill is posted online. The airline section is not that long. It says nothing about major vs regional. But it also doesnít say anything about grants....only secured loans.


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Most regionals donít own their own aircraft and lack the assets to securitize loans. And the wholly-owneds donít control their destiny, their owners do.

Independents that own their own aircraft (a small group) might be best positioned...but they still depend on their customersólimited to four majors.

CaptainSlow
03-21-2020, 08:25 PM
Most regionals donít own their own aircraft and lack the assets to securitize loans. And the wholly-owneds donít control their destiny, their owners do.

Independents that own their own aircraft (a small group) might be best positioned...but they still depend on their customersólimited to four majors.


Good point.

Based on the news stories about negotiations in the House, the final bill may not even resemble the Senate proposal anyway. Who knows how the House version will divvy up the proceeds, and whether the secured loan language will be included. I just hope there is some kind of labor protections written into the final version.


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Onedayatatimee
03-21-2020, 09:00 PM
Good point.

Based on the news stories about negotiations in the House, the final bill may not even resemble the Senate proposal anyway. Who knows how the House version will divvy up the proceeds, and whether the secured loan language will be included. I just hope there is some kind of labor protections written into the final version.


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If you get a chance sooner then later make sure to write your Senator stating your concerns with the Airline Stimulus package.

The more of us that do it the more leverage we have.

Shako68
03-21-2020, 09:04 PM
Airlines for America sent in a letter to Congress signed by 10 carriers...SY wasnít one of them!

sad how much effort has gone into saving this place over the years for basically nothing in return...time to let this turd sink to the bottom of the ocean!!!

CaptainSlow
03-21-2020, 09:10 PM
I think the 10 carriers that signed the letter are the only members of the Airlines for America association/lobbying group.


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jcool734
03-21-2020, 09:11 PM
I think the 10 carriers that signed the letter are the only members of the Airlines for America association/lobbying group.


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Ya I donít think SY was ever included


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maverickchill
03-28-2020, 12:30 PM
What does alpa have to say about the open skies agreement now that u.s. airlines are being subsidized by the gov?
http://www.alpa.org/advocacy/state-owned-enterprises

flyingpuma1
03-28-2020, 03:33 PM
Hopefully you guys come out the other end from this, I've got a few friends over here and I'm pulling for you.

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Onedayatatimee
03-29-2020, 06:14 AM
So CARE act is passed, not much details so far on how this effects the SY pilot group?? It sounds encouraging in the short term.

Does anyone have details on CARE and what terms the company is obligated to as far as labor and accepting the money ??

Sounded like the company is interested in voluntary paid time off. Any guesses on what this might entail?? (50-55hr no fly line?).

So far itís just been vague updates and not a lot of detail. Hope this week itís more details on how this will effect us all over the coming months and what our options are or what we can expect.

nibake
04-01-2020, 09:27 AM
Companies are supposed to apply for aid by this Friday afternoon.

Companies accepting aid cannot furlough or lay off. They are not even supposed to be able to reduce pay rates until September 30. No stock buybacks, but that shouldn't affect Sun Country. Bankruptcy would, however, stop the payments.

If I am reading this confusing paragraph on CBAs correctly, the gubbermint cannot put conditions on our ability to use collective bargaining.

Source:
https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/Guidelines%20and%20Procedures%20for%20Payroll%20Su pport%20to%20Air%20Carriers%20and%20Contractors.pd f

lgaflyer
04-01-2020, 12:21 PM
Companies are supposed to apply for aid by this Friday afternoon.

Companies accepting aid cannot furlough or lay off. They are not even supposed to be able to reduce pay rates until September 30. No stock buybacks, but that shouldn't affect Sun Country. Bankruptcy would, however, stop the payments.

If I am reading this confusing paragraph on CBAs correctly, the gubbermint cannot put conditions on our ability to use collective bargaining.

Source:
https://home.treasury.gov/system/files/136/Guidelines%20and%20Procedures%20for%20Payroll%20Su pport%20to%20Air%20Carriers%20and%20Contractors.pd f


it depends on what the definition of "pay rate" is. If your pay is $200/hr. They can maintain that "pay rate" but only pay you 20h a month rather than 75h. Technically, the "pay rate" is the same. Of course I never read the fine print...

nibake
04-01-2020, 03:46 PM
That's a good point, I only see "pay rates" in the guidance, so the company would be free to pay fewer hours, if the contract or the union would allow it.

Heavy B
04-12-2020, 08:54 PM
Latest events going on? Are the Amazon birds the saving grace?

nibake
04-13-2020, 06:41 AM
Too early to tell.

Latest events: company offered reduced pay leaves to about 50% of the pilots. Only about 1/6 of the captains took and and about 1/3 of the FOs. There are going to be a lot of people sitting on reserve in the cities next month. Awesome if you live there and don't mind being on a leash. For commuters the leave was a no-brainer, despite the lost income.

EffSY
04-13-2020, 08:18 AM
Iíll bet more than half the computers are sitting reserve in the comfort of their own home no matter where it is. Reserve roulette at its best and I doubt any punitive action would come if someone was actually called...

SilentLurker
04-15-2020, 06:39 AM
Any update on what Sun Country received from $25B government subsidized airline grant/warrant/loans? I understand charter flying was also a big part of the business model.

SilentLurker
04-15-2020, 06:41 AM
Any update or rumor on the line... any 737 conversion plans to better source cargo operation opportunities?

Any outlook on next 3 months, 6 months, 1 year + ?

Asking for a friend.

senecacaptain
04-15-2020, 06:44 AM
Twitter said they stated Amazon flying was more important than PAX, and they waved the "we fly military troops" flag pretty hard.

who knows tho....

apex7
04-16-2020, 08:13 AM
Seems like they are doing pretty well on the charter side, look at all those 8000 number flights on OFI today:p

nibake
04-20-2020, 05:30 AM
SilentLurker noone really knows what the future will hold for the company. Cargo operations haven't changed much from the forecast trajectory, a few airplanes coming on and keeping a handful of pilots busy, eventually ramping up to 10 airplanes, maybe 15. Rumor is company is getting 60mil from CARES possibly additional private loans. Fortunately Munchin says $100mil and under won't have to be repayed.

At the end of the day we are in the same boat as everyone else. Hope for a quick return of demand or suffer a painful demise. Some developments last night on better reserve rules but no actual LOA yet so I'm at a complete loss as to how that is going down.

Onedayatatimee
04-23-2020, 07:27 AM
Howíd the first Amazon flight go today??

Another on time departure?