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View Full Version : SY First Prime Air Bird


3rdGen
03-23-2020, 03:04 PM
Here it is. blob:https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ec5ef61d-c052-4013-9f62-2859a0d3c117


EffSY
03-23-2020, 03:23 PM
Here it is. blob:https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/ec5ef61d-c052-4013-9f62-2859a0d3c117
thatíll keep 6 pilots employed...

3rdGen
03-24-2020, 12:25 PM
thatíll keep 6 pilots employed...

well, you just are a ray of sunshine....


EffSY
03-24-2020, 12:28 PM
well, you just are a ray of sunshine....
when most of us will be out on the streets seeking financial deferrals Weíll see how much of a ray of sunshine pays the bills when I open my wallet. If 10 aircraft are supposed to be 20% of SYís operations you can do the simple math what one airplane for the next several months will do...

wjcandee
05-10-2020, 11:16 PM
when most of us will be out on the streets seeking financial deferrals Weíll see how much of a ray of sunshine pays the bills when I open my wallet. If 10 aircraft are supposed to be 20% of SYís operations you can do the simple math what one airplane for the next several months will do...

Amazon is going to ramp this up much faster than originally-planned precisely-because things are otherwise slow there, so 6 pilots will be 60 sooner than you think. It's no panacea, but it's a help.

Cujo665
05-11-2020, 09:35 AM
Iím actually keenly interested in how this works out. Itís really the first foray by a scheduled airline into ACMI cargo flying. Could it be a new business model? Mesa tried something similar but apparently couldnít pull it off.
Currently itís looking like the biggest single carrier petition in our lifetime is on the horizon. This new business model muddies those waters.

beech1980
05-11-2020, 12:59 PM
I’m actually keenly interested in how this works out. It’s really the first foray by a scheduled airline into ACMI cargo flying. Could it be a new business model? Mesa tried something similar but apparently couldn’t pull it off.
Currently it’s looking like the biggest single carrier petition in our lifetime is on the horizon. This new business model muddies those waters.

Sun Country flew freight in DC-10’s. This isn’t their first time. I think Amazon probably has more faith in Sun Country pulling this off then Mesa. Their are plenty of dc-10 freight pilots still flying the 737 at SCA. It takes more than 6 pilots to fly one 737. Most airlines staff 10-12 captains and First officers per plane.

Cujo665
05-11-2020, 04:04 PM
Sun Country flew freight in DC-10’s. This isn’t their first time. I think Amazon probably has more faith in Sun Country pulling this off then Mesa. Their are plenty of dc-10 freight pilots still flying the 737 at SCA. It takes more than 6 pilots to fly one 737. Most airlines staff 10-12 captains and First officers per plane.

were they doing both freight and scheduled pax service at the same time in their own name, or branded flying like Prime? Have we ever had companies flying the brand of an airline that doesn’t even exist with a 121 certificate? I suppose the American Eagle brand or United/Delta Express is branded flying in a name that isn’t actually an airline, but those are plays on words for the mainline carrier they contract with. There is no Prime Air airline.... yet....


Amazon is building all the infrastructure to run an airline without actually doing it.... yet they are exercising more than enough operational control that a single carrier petition could just be lurking over the horizon.... same paint (branding of an airline that doesn’t even exist) same uniforms in some cases, directing the routes and schedules. They’re doing it all but running the plane and crew.

wjcandee
05-11-2020, 08:26 PM
were they doing both freight and scheduled pax service at the same time in their own name, or branded flying like Prime? Have we ever had companies flying the brand of an airline that doesnít even exist with a 121 certificate? I suppose the American Eagle brand or United/Delta Express is branded flying in a name that isnít actually an airline, but those are plays on words for the mainline carrier they contract with. There is no Prime Air airline.... yet....


Amazon is building all the infrastructure to run an airline without actually doing it.... yet they are exercising more than enough operational control that a single carrier petition could just be lurking over the horizon.... same paint (branding of an airline that doesnít even exist) same uniforms in some cases, directing the routes and schedules. Theyíre doing it all but running the plane and crew.

OMG. How much money do Teamsters members want to spend on yet another failed, prolonged legal battle? For a bunch of intelligent people, so many pilots have been so deluded about the likelihood of success of so many out-there legal theories, it's like those people who go and read some book and then decide that they really aren't required to pay income tax or that they aren't required to obey any law enforcement officer other than a Sheriff. And then actually act on it, and belittle their relatives and friends and coworkers who haven't seen the light.

These lawsuits are losers. They are losers when filed. They are losers at the end. Their purpose is not to actually win, but to bring pressure on various carriers to knuckle under to what the Teamsters want, because otherwise the employer will spend a zillion dollars on litigation and there's always the possibility of some crazy result that favors the Teamsters, which will then have to wind its way through the courts until it's corrected. Finding every lever of leverage is a time-honored tradition in dispute resolution, so, let's be clear, I don't fault them for trying, but to actually believe the claims are likely to succeed? Please.

Moreover, it seems like a lot of money has been spent on lawsuits that come to an entirely-predictable conclusion, and that the strategy hasn't worked because the leverage really wasn't there. Maybe time to try something else?

Back when ABX was pushing for single-transportation-system, their members were on this forum confident of victory and saying all sorts of mean, childish things about what they were going to ram down the ATI pilots' throats. Then they got their asses handed to them and the airline has been shrinking ever since. Management spitefully brought in a guy as President who was reputed to hate pilots, and it sounds like his actions are consistent with his reputation, as he is operating the Incredible Shrinking Airline at a time of Great Cargo Opportunity. Then ATI got a lot bigger than ABX, and so now ABX doesn't want a single-transportation-system of it and ATI because if single-transportation-system was implemented now, 1224 would be voted out and the ABX/ATI "single transportation system" pilots would become ALPA and have home-basing. See? It's isn't about the principle of the thing. It's about how a principle can be used to benefit ME ME ME, while it cloaks my arguments in a bunch of virtuous-sounding claptrap. But, hey, that's politics.

So now we don't want single-transportation-system at the two ATSG carriers that operate for Amazon, because it doesn't serve our interests. Oooh, huh. Hmmm.... Okay, new idea: let's have ALL the carriers petition for single-transportation-system (except ATI), even ones with no common ownership and myriad additional customers besides Amazon. That'll work! Once again, the Teamsters will have more members in the mix so we can really lay waste to what other people want or are happy with!! Woo-hoo!

Good luck. The guy the Teamsters use is an excellent, creative lawyer that can stand up there and believably state the most-remarkable legal theories. But my own personal opinion is that the bullying, trying-to-jam-ourselves-down-everyone's-throat approach has been a failure, any such future litigation is going to be a failure, and better to spend the money on a pool of Powerball tickets.

CaptainSlow
05-12-2020, 03:13 AM
https://media1.giphy.com/media/A928XcIImHJAc/giphy.gif


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cujo665
05-12-2020, 11:04 AM
OMG. How much money do Teamsters members want to spend on yet another failed, prolonged legal battle? ��...

Well, you sure went down a rabbit hole.
Whatever 1224 may have bee doing has zero to do with the comment I made concerning an NMB single carrier petition. Not talking about ATSG or Atlas or any of them running a single transportation system.... Amazon is. (or is as close as you can be). I'd just like to see it tested before this business model takes root.

We already have Vendors flying for mainline airlines, but those mainline airlines do in fact hold 121 certificates and operate an airline. Amazon has no 121 certificate or airline of it's own, yet is managing an awful lot of operational control over what for all intensive purposes sure looks like a single transportation system.

Here is what the NMB looks at:

The Board determines the existence of a single transportation system based upon Section 19 of the Board’s Representation Manual.

Section 19.4 provides that “[a]ny organization or individual may file an application, supported by evidence of representation or a showing of interest seeking a determination whether a single system of transportation exists.”

Section 19.501 states that actions by the Carriers constitutes the existence of a single transportation system, such as published combined schedules or combined routes; standardized uniforms; common marketing, markings, or insignia; integrated essential operations such as scheduling or dispatching; centralized labor and personnel operations; combined or common management, corporate officers, and board of directors; combined workforce; and common or overlapping ownership

Who tells the ACMI's where to send the planes; Amazon
Who tells the ACMI's when to send the planes; Amazon
Who is having all the ACMI planes painted in Amazon branding, Amazon
Who is making most of the ACMI's wear Amazon uniforms; Amazon
Who owns stakes in several of the ACMI's it contracts with; Amazon

Who is going to start "

For a company not exercising operational control, they sure look like their running or planning to run an airline to me..... they're even hiring the management team now.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1055590/sr-maintenance-operations-manager-ncc-amazon-air

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1074074/air-operations-manager-network-control-center

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1035247/senior-program-manager-aircraft-heavy-maintenance

Cujo665
05-12-2020, 11:15 AM
Decent write up....

https://www.aircargonews.net/airlines/freighter-operator/sun-country-airlines-starts-cargo-operations-for-amazon/

Heavy B
05-12-2020, 11:44 AM
were they doing both freight and scheduled pax service at the same time in their own name, or branded flying like Prime? Have we ever had companies flying the brand of an airline that doesnít even exist with a 121 certificate? I suppose the American Eagle brand or United/Delta Express is branded flying in a name that isnít actually an airline, but those are plays on words for the mainline carrier they contract with. There is no Prime Air airline.... yet....


Amazon is building all the infrastructure to run an airline without actually doing it.... yet they are exercising more than enough operational control that a single carrier petition could just be lurking over the horizon.... same paint (branding of an airline that doesnít even exist) same uniforms in some cases, directing the routes and schedules. Theyíre doing it all but running the plane and crew.


They do the same thing with delivering packages through DSPs. All the risk and operational stress is shifted to a third party.

Cujo665
05-12-2020, 12:02 PM
They do the same thing with delivering packages through DSPs. All the risk and operational stress is shifted to a third party.

Package ground deliver is under NLRA, airlines are under the RLA. Single Transportation System rules under the RLA are in the post above.

It actually may be a bit of a grey area, as for the longest time Fedex Ground was RLA and UPS ground was NLRA. The consensus was that UPS started as a ground company, and later added air. Fedex was an airline from the beginning. I'll have to dig a bit to see if that one has been resolved yet, I know it was a sticky issue a number of years back. I'll look into how it turned out.... unless somebody already knows. I think they returned all ground to NLRA. This was back around 2010 IIRC

A DHL NMB decision in 2003 may come into play.

Cujo665
05-13-2020, 12:32 PM
They do the same thing with delivering packages through DSPs. All the risk and operational stress is shifted to a third party.

ground is under NLRA not RLA. RLA has clear single transportation system criteria.

Av8tr1
05-13-2020, 12:45 PM
Well, you sure went down a rabbit hole.
Whatever 1224 may have bee doing has zero to do with the comment I made concerning an NMB single carrier petition. Not talking about ATSG or Atlas or any of them running a single transportation system.... Amazon is. (or is as close as you can be). I'd just like to see it tested before this business model takes root.

We already have Vendors flying for mainline airlines, but those mainline airlines do in fact hold 121 certificates and operate an airline. Amazon has no 121 certificate or airline of it's own, yet is managing an awful lot of operational control over what for all intensive purposes sure looks like a single transportation system.

Here is what the NMB looks at:

The Board determines the existence of a single transportation system based upon Section 19 of the Boardís Representation Manual.

Section 19.4 provides that ď[a]ny organization or individual may file an application, supported by evidence of representation or a showing of interest seeking a determination whether a single system of transportation exists.Ē

Section 19.501 states that actions by the Carriers constitutes the existence of a single transportation system, such as published combined schedules or combined routes; standardized uniforms; common marketing, markings, or insignia; integrated essential operations such as scheduling or dispatching; centralized labor and personnel operations; combined or common management, corporate officers, and board of directors; combined workforce; and common or overlapping ownership

Who tells the ACMI's where to send the planes; Amazon
Who tells the ACMI's when to send the planes; Amazon
Who is having all the ACMI planes painted in Amazon branding, Amazon
Who is making most of the ACMI's wear Amazon uniforms; Amazon
Who owns stakes in several of the ACMI's it contracts with; Amazon

Who is going to start "

For a company not exercising operational control, they sure look like their running or planning to run an airline to me..... they're even hiring the management team now.

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1055590/sr-maintenance-operations-manager-ncc-amazon-air

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1074074/air-operations-manager-network-control-center

https://www.amazon.jobs/en/jobs/1035247/senior-program-manager-aircraft-heavy-maintenance

How is that any different from what FedEx does with MAC, Empire and all the other FedEx feeders?

iPilot
05-13-2020, 03:48 PM
I am not an airline manager but just looking around the industry there must come a point where owning the airline makes more sense than farming it out. I mean, why isn't Sun Country just a bunch of regionals/ACMI running around on behalf of Sun Country (essentially a marketing and charter agency)? For that matter why not JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier or any company founded in the recent era?

Perhaps at some point it's just better to own the operation and tolerate the unions having that foothold. After all, Amazon is bringing the ramp crews in house. On the spectrum of labor groups that should be in-sourced versus out-sourced I'd put them above all else firmly in the outsource category.

But who knows, Amazon is brand new and not really interested in how any of this has been done before.

sidelinesam
05-13-2020, 05:49 PM
I am not an airline manager but just looking around the industry there must come a point where owning the airline makes more sense than farming it out. I mean, why isn't Sun Country just a bunch of regionals/ACMI running around on behalf of Sun Country (essentially a marketing and charter agency)? For that matter why not JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier or any company founded in the recent era?

Perhaps at some point it's just better to own the operation and tolerate the unions having that foothold. After all, Amazon is bringing the ramp crews in house. On the spectrum of labor groups that should be in-sourced versus out-sourced I'd put them above all else firmly in the outsource category.

But who knows, Amazon is brand new and not really interested in how any of this has been done before.

Sun Country was founded in June of 1982 so I wouldn't say we've been founded recently. And our contract leaves a lot to be desired but I would say our scope clause is pretty strong.

iPilot
05-13-2020, 06:10 PM
Sun Country was founded in June of 1982 so I wouldn't say we've been founded recently. And our contract leaves a lot to be desired but I would say our scope clause is pretty strong.

Fair enough about Sun Country specifically but that doesn't explain the others or someone creating an airline like Sun Country but using all contractors. Just saying that if outsourcing pilots was the One True Way(TM) companies like yours would of been on the scrap heap years ago replaced by marketing companies that bid out contracts to Mesa, Swift or any other dirtbag outfit operating out of the back room of Brysons Pub in Miami.

Cujo665
05-14-2020, 02:14 PM
How is that any different from what FedEx does with MAC, Empire and all the other FedEx feeders?

the other feeders arenít flying the same fleet types. Further, Fedex does operate its own airline under its own 121 certificate.

amazon is essentially having operational control of The Who goes where and when without being an airline, without holding a 121 certificate. Itís a business model that really hasnít existed. Flying a brand that not only isnít an airline, but isnít a feeder for one that is.

goinaround
05-14-2020, 06:03 PM
were they doing both freight and scheduled pax service at the same time in their own name, or branded flying like Prime? Have we ever had companies flying the brand of an airline that doesnít even exist with a 121 certificate? I suppose the American Eagle brand or United/Delta Express is branded flying in a name that isnít actually an airline, but those are plays on words for the mainline carrier they contract with. There is no Prime Air airline.... yet....


Amazon is building all the infrastructure to run an airline without actually doing it.... yet they are exercising more than enough operational control that a single carrier petition could just be lurking over the horizon.... same paint (branding of an airline that doesnít even exist) same uniforms in some cases, directing the routes and schedules. Theyíre doing it all but running the plane and crew.

Why would anyone file a single carrier petition? DHL has many many companies moving their freight. Been that way for quite a while now.

Cujo665
05-16-2020, 03:54 PM
Why would anyone file a single carrier petition? DHL has many many companies moving their freight. Been that way for quite a while now.

Yes, why would anyone ever want all the pilots on one labor contract.... who’d ever want that.

symbian simian
05-17-2020, 05:21 PM
How is that any different from what FedEx does with MAC, Empire and all the other FedEx feeders?

Well, for starters, FedEx has a 121 certificate, Amazon doesn't....

symbian simian
05-17-2020, 05:27 PM
for all intensive purposes sure looks like a single transportation system.



Filler....................filler

Cujo665
05-18-2020, 05:57 AM
Filler....................filler

yep, butter fingered it and auto-correct went haywire. Missed in proof read too, sorry. It was a long post.
Thanks for the catch.