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View Full Version : ALV Relief


cadetcolin
03-24-2020, 01:50 PM
As a line pilot Iíd like to state that since we have now been called upon to help bail out Delta, we should do so in a calculated and purposeful manner, one not rooted in fear. Hearing our management team sprinkle some optimism into their messages; that when we emerge from this we will be ready to grow and will capitalize on the opportunity of a new landscape, should be the same mindset of our ALPA leadership. The ďfull pay till the last dayĒ crowd are potentially overlooking an opportunity for us to not only ensure our survival but to greatly improve the PWA.

-I will potentially accept a 3 month line value cut. This would be a substantial monthly cost savings for the company when calculated over 14,500 pilots. However, this LOA must include a return of these lost hours into each pilotís bank which will be available for withdrawal after an additional 3 month waiting period (6 months from signing). Interest of 5% will also be applied to these hours.

In return we should seek to achieve no or low cost enhancements to our PWA.

-The international market currently doesn't exist. There is no reason Management couldn't make production balance changes to our JVís. A balance of 70% Delta flying would be more than fair when looking at what each airline brings to these given relationships. As Ed stated during the 40% capacity cut memo, this is unprecedented and worse than 9/11, and that was before the 70% capacity cut. A line value cut and a JV split of 70% should be a package deal. Our line value cut will end but this production balance shall be a permanent LOA.

-DH policy to mandate Comfort+ aisle or window seats. If a pilot is booked in a middle or economy seat the DH should pay 150%.

-Non-Rev travel has been significantly devalued over the years as load factors have increased making travel for families nearly impossible. Although not an issue during these troubling times, Iíd propose a NRPS pass for each pilot and their eligible pass riders tied to their number of vacation weeks. A pilot with 4 weeks of vacation would get 4 NRPS round trip passes. These should be bankable and never expire.

-100 hour sick verification should no longer exist. Management has and will always hold the necessary tools to identify and punish sick leave abusers. This policy was never about identifying those few pilots. This was about imposing barriers to drive down total sick leave usage. This is a no cost item, and in fact will reduce costs of pointless physician visits to get a note signed. If Management believes this has been an effective policy in reducing sick leave usage, would they claim this policy prevents individuals from actually getting sick or just discourages sick leave usage when a pilot is sick? Efforts in medicine, health and wellness reduce illness, not corporate policy. This not so subtle psychological push is also the corporate mentality many blame for individuals coming to work while sick, and thus at the very center of this current pandemic.

-23K gives the company an almost unprecedented level of flexibility. The end of the 6 month period should also sunset 23K IROP obligation. Normal coverage sequence will be utilized and the Company must maintain appropriate staffing levels so that pilots are not essentially converted to Reserve because of summer thunderstorms or IT mishaps.

We understand the gravity of this situation and realize our PWA, which was achievable in the near future will now be pushed off indefinitely. Also at the end of 6 months will be an immediate 3% raise. Additional 3% raises will be granted every 6 months until a new PWA is ratified. This will ensure that Management is equally as committed to the bargaining process.

The Delta Pilots stand ready to help Management get through this demand and cash flow crisis. However we will not allow this to be an opportunity for Management to use fear and impose long lasting cuts and erosion of the PWA, akin to what took place after 2001 and the ensuing bankruptcy period. If these are truly desperate times, Management should show no hesitation when accepting our massive cost cutting measure to help save Delta Air Lines.

If they show no willingness to provide these no/low cost items for our line value cut then I strongly urge my ALPA representation to not entertain any PWA relief.


80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 01:53 PM
I might agree to a temporary ALV reduction if they sign to agree to our entire section 23 ask when profitability returns.

Canít say Iím in much of a giving mood after EdĒs memo today.

Abouttime2fish
03-24-2020, 01:54 PM
24 hrs ago this seemed very reasonable. Now, no thank you.


hockeypilot44
03-24-2020, 01:55 PM
As a line pilot Iíd like to state that since we have now been called upon to help bail out Delta, we should do so in a calculated and purposeful manner, one not rooted in fear. Hearing our management team sprinkle some optimism into their messages; that when we emerge from this we will be ready to grow and will capitalize on the opportunity of a new landscape, should be the same mindset of our ALPA leadership. The ďfull pay till the last dayĒ crowd are potentially overlooking an opportunity for us to not only ensure our survival but to greatly improve the PWA.

-I will potentially accept a 3 month line value cut. This would be a substantial monthly cost savings for the company when calculated over 14,500 pilots. However, this LOA must include a return of these lost hours into each pilotís bank which will be available for withdrawal after an additional 3 month waiting period (6 months from signing). Interest of 5% will also be applied to these hours.

In return we should seek to achieve no or low cost enhancements to our PWA.

-The international market currently doesn't exist. There is no reason Management couldn't make production balance changes to our JVís. A balance of 70% Delta flying would be more than fair when looking at what each airline brings to these given relationships. As Ed stated during the 40% capacity cut memo, this is unprecedented and worse than 9/11, and that was before the 70% capacity cut. A line value cut and a JV split of 70% should be a package deal. Our line value cut will end but this production balance shall be a permanent LOA.

-DH policy to mandate Comfort+ aisle or window seats. If a pilot is booked in a middle or economy seat the DH should pay 150%.

-Non-Rev travel has been significantly devalued over the years as load factors have increased making travel for families nearly impossible. Although not an issue during these troubling times, Iíd propose a NRPS pass for each pilot and their eligible pass riders tied to their number of vacation weeks. A pilot with 4 weeks of vacation would get 4 NRPS round trip passes. These should be bankable and never expire.

-100 hour sick verification should no longer exist. Management has and will always hold the necessary tools to identify and punish sick leave abusers. This policy was never about identifying those few pilots. This was about imposing barriers to drive down total sick leave usage. This is a no cost item, and in fact will reduce costs of pointless physician visits to get a note signed. If Management believes this has been an effective policy in reducing sick leave usage, would they claim this policy prevents individuals from actually getting sick or just discourages sick leave usage when a pilot is sick? Efforts in medicine, health and wellness reduce illness, not corporate policy. This not so subtle psychological push is also the corporate mentality many blame for individuals coming to work while sick, and thus at the very center of this current pandemic.

-23K gives the company an almost unprecedented level of flexibility. The end of the 6 month period should also sunset 23K IROP obligation. Normal coverage sequence will be utilized and the Company must maintain appropriate staffing levels so that pilots are not essentially converted to Reserve because of summer thunderstorms or IT mishaps.

We understand the gravity of this situation and realize our PWA, which was achievable in the near future will now be pushed off indefinitely. Also at the end of 6 months will be an immediate 3% raise. Additional 3% raises will be granted every 6 months until a new PWA is ratified. This will ensure that Management is equally as committed to the bargaining process.

The Delta Pilots stand ready to help Management get through this demand and cash flow crisis. However we will not allow this to be an opportunity for Management to use fear and impose long lasting cuts and erosion of the PWA, akin to what took place after 2001 and the ensuing bankruptcy period. If these are truly desperate times, Management should show no hesitation when accepting our massive cost cutting measure to help save Delta Air Lines.

If they show no willingness to provide these no/low cost items for our line value cut then I strongly urge my ALPA representation to not entertain any PWA relief.

You are probably junior. Sorry. I'm voting against any concessions if given the opportunity including reduced ALV's. I will however vote yes to paying an assessment to cover COBRA for our furlougheees.

LeineLodge
03-24-2020, 01:58 PM
You are probably junior. Sorry. I'm voting against any concessions if given the opportunity including reduced ALV's. I will however vote yes to paying an assessment to cover COBRA for our furlougheees.

And as someone the same seniority at hockey, Iím ok with lower ALVís to keep more guys in property. That what a union does.

AirbusPTC
03-24-2020, 02:00 PM
24 hrs ago this seemed very reasonable. Now, no thank you.

You are absolutely right. EB and et al can go pound sand. They say they took pay cuts? How 'bout this? When they return the money they took as "Stock Award Value", "Option Award Value", bonuses and non-equity incentive comp for every year since RA left, then we'll talk about the pilot group accepting concession of ANY sort. That's almost a billion right there.

We still have the taste of LM, MB and WJ in our mouths. F U EB, no concessions.

Jaww
03-24-2020, 02:08 PM
Yeah, thatís a no for me. Reap what you sow.

notEnuf
03-24-2020, 02:09 PM
A 55 hour SIL would have done the same thing. Total average could have been in the 65ish min line value range. Coming from 90 hours a month with pickups this would have been some real savings. They balked so now they have to convince 50%+1 that the next deal is acceptable. Good luck. Iím going to take a lot more convincing, a lot more.

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 02:10 PM
AA and UA are going forward with their SILs. They are just seeing how cheap they can get concessions now.

hockeypilot44
03-24-2020, 02:14 PM
And as someone the same seniority at hockey, Iím ok with lower ALVís to keep more guys in property. That what a union does.

It won't keep more guys on property. We are looking at 5-10 years of being a much smaller company. They are trying to pull one over on us. Cancelling the SILs is telling.

Scoop
03-24-2020, 02:20 PM
AA and UA are going forward with their SILs. They are just seeing how cheap they can get concessions now.

How long until DALPA comes out recommending that since the company reneged on our SIL agreement that no Pilots accept the PLOA? I guess management thinks we never learn from our mistakes. Either that or they are hoping that we enough new Pilots that have not been through something like this yet.

I am just dumbfounded as to how management can think that they can get the benefits of an agreement (April re-bid) and then just change their mind on their obligation (SILs) and still expect the Pilots to trust them.

Oh I get it now - things changed. If that's the case we can make a deal in the future when things stop changing - as in never.

Scoop :confused:

Phins2right
03-24-2020, 02:21 PM
Yeah, thatís a no for me. Reap what you sow.
x2
filler......

tropflyer
03-24-2020, 02:31 PM
AA and UA are going forward with their SILs. They are just seeing how cheap they can get concessions now.

Exactly. Our management has the arrogance to believe that they can outperform AA and UA management at every opportunity, and this is no exception. SILs are the industry-standard cost savings measure right now.

Theyíre going to use peer pressure, fear tactics, and ďDelta familyĒ nonsense to try to extract more from us than our industry peers. We all need to stand firm. No concessions!

TED74
03-24-2020, 02:48 PM
What peer pressure? Do they think some dirty looks from FAs or gate agents influence my behavior? Weird.

dbrownie
03-24-2020, 02:59 PM
20% ALV reduction is a mega hit. What maybe 55 hours? No way, sorry...we had people offer to do that.

The company needs to realize we are not their piggy bank or ATM.

Besides they will do what they want anyway...

fishforfun
03-24-2020, 03:02 PM
A 55 hour SIL would have done the same thing. Total average could have been in the 65ish min line value range. Coming from 90 hours a month with pickups this would have been some real savings. They balked so now they have to convince 50%+1 that the next deal is acceptable. Good luck. Iím going to take a lot more convincing, a lot more.

Dont forget to subtract about 60 guys off the payroll every month this year. That makes up a lot of ground off the top end.

CX500T
03-24-2020, 03:33 PM
That's about 1.5M a month, every month in payroll savings.

And that's just
60 pilots x 72 hours x 300/hr x1.16

No insurance or disability.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

hvydvr
03-24-2020, 03:43 PM
Doing the math is a foolís errand. The company has three options to modify pilot payroll: furlough, SILs, and KLOAs. Why wait until Friday? Give them the answer now. Under no circumstances should this group agree to anything before the terms of the bailout are made known. No need to accelerate to the scene of the accident.

Giordano Bruno
03-24-2020, 03:46 PM
I might agree to a temporary ALV reduction if they sign to agree to our entire section 23 ask when profitability returns.

Can’t say I’m in much of a giving mood after Ed”s memo today.

Agree. He is setting us up as the scapegoat for his negligence and greed. It's the 2005 BK playbook, page by page.

We know better now, and Moak isn't here to bail him out.

Suck it, Bastian. This is your problem to fix.

mikea72580
03-24-2020, 03:50 PM
Guys,


Let's agree on one thing. Getting paid 55 hours for 3 months is a mere blip on the radar financially for most of us. This is not about the "next 3 months". IT'S ABOUT WHAT FOLLOWS. Management has launched an all out effort THIS WEEK, to position itself to not need government assistance. That is their singular goal. 5 days to make it happen.

Two weeks ago, they cut pay at the management level to begin the narrative of shared pain- Accomplished

Last week, secure enough liquidity through private loans- Accomplished.

This week, impose payroll cuts on ground workers, defer payroll cuts for flight attendant until May(It will happen), and obtain deeper cuts from pilots- In Progress

The aim of this is to avoid needing to take government aid and the strings that come with it. There is no doubt, that come Sept 1st, Delta will be unprofitable and will still have too much staffing. They will need to furlough and slash pay and hours. If they accept the aid they will either be expressly prohibited from doing this, OR it may be too much bad publicity that they took government welfare and STILL furloughed.

They need to be in position to continue to suppress payroll going into next year and government aid will severely impact their ability to do so. The actions they take NOW, are intended to pay dividends very far down the line.

As pilots we should help where we can but in no way be complicit with their ultimate strategy which is to avoid taking government aid. If we can secure a deal that awards us later, for shared pain now, then we should pursue that. But I think we all know they aren't interested in that.

American and United are in the exact same spot as Delta but they are either not as smart or greedy as our management. They know they will be overstaffed going into next year but have struck a balance of offering early retirements and accepting SILs to cut payroll. They will most certainly lever up their balance sheet more than Delta, but apparently they see that as a fair deal. Delta, not so much.


On Friday, we should have prepared 3 offers for management, ALL of which agree to cut ALV for MAY, JUNE, and JULY.

In exchange we need guarantees that no pilot will be furloughed for the next 18 months.

Additionally, we should produce 3 versions that each have various snapbacks and incentives that would trigger with future levels of profitability.

Give them a few offers to choose from. Don't overdue it, but obtain reasonable rewards for being team players.

crzepilot
03-24-2020, 03:50 PM
Totally agree with you on all your points, additionally second the Delta Family nonsense, it been easy over the last 6-8 years for them to try and run that on a loop to us. When it matters is in times like these, this is when leadership proves its worth, not by performing sleazy **** in the board room when the frontline employees are working like heck to complete flights all summer long while you buy back stock as well as undermine the pilot group by joint ventures and partial ownership of foreign airlines, all while profits are soaring. So much of the DAL contract needs improvement especially that we have seen what the Delta pilot group can do. They can look across the airport in JFK To see what kind of profits and customer satisfaction scores you can achieve when you disown your frontline employees.

beis77
03-24-2020, 03:52 PM
Doing the math is a foolís errand. The company has three options to modify pilot payroll: furlough, SILs, and KLOAs. Why wait until Friday? Give them the answer now. Under no circumstances should this group agree to anything before the terms of the bailout are made known. No need to accelerate to the scene of the accident.

agreed. waiting until the bailout is the smart move (for us). I canít see the company furloughing pilots yet anyway. I could obviously be wrong, but for years now (literally), management has been boasting about Delta being in the best financial position of the big three. And they want to hold onto their investor grade rating. They donít want to be the first ones to break the seal and pull the furlough trigger. Imagine what message that sends to our investors and our competitors.

ERflyer
03-24-2020, 03:59 PM
No.

From someone who always says yes.

marcal
03-24-2020, 04:01 PM
agreed. waiting until the bailout is the smart move (for us). I canít see the company furloughing pilots yet anyway. I could obviously be wrong, but for years now (literally), management has been boasting about Delta being in the best financial position of the big three. And they want to hold onto their investor grade rating. They donít want to be the first ones to break the seal and pull the furlough trigger. Imagine what message that sends to our investors and our competitors.

lol already lost that investment grade today

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/delta-air-lines-credit-gets-downgraded-into-junk-at-sp-but-stock-biggest-gain-in-nearly-12-years-2020-03-24

RJ4LIFE
03-24-2020, 04:08 PM
I think the OP is on to something here and we can get some positive long term gains out of this. A lot of the hard line commentary about not even considering a temporary pay cut are short sighted, if not downright blind. The company is obviously in a perilous financial situation, I can't imagine anyone questions that anymore, so this might be an opportunity in the same way that the tanking stock market is an opportunity.

In some ways this is a significant bargaining chip and could be a win/win for us. In exchange for temporarily lowing ALV we pospone/minimize furloughs in the short term and we secure economic gains in the long term that vastly outweigh what we'll lose in the next three months

beis77
03-24-2020, 04:08 PM
lol already lost that investment grade today

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/delta-air-lines-credit-gets-downgraded-into-junk-at-sp-but-stock-biggest-gain-in-nearly-12-years-2020-03-24

oh wow, I missed that, that stinks...

APCLurker
03-24-2020, 04:24 PM
After recent events, solid "no way."

They came looking for a bailout, took the April re-bid, then backed out on the sils. No more deals.

No more deals until they take the .Gov loans/bailout.

If they don't want to take the .Gov help, then they shouldn't get any from us. Not after getting some then almost immediately pulling the football away.

Their backing out of the Sils was very telling.

Hank Kingsley
03-24-2020, 04:30 PM
Whether duplicity or stupidity, I'm done with this management. They take no responsibility and show no humility for the situation we find ourselves in. We gave in BK, the took that money and enriched themselves for generations. Don't give an inch without snap backs and huge QOL improvements that are permanent.

deltabound
03-24-2020, 04:31 PM
lol already lost that investment grade today

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/delta-air-lines-credit-gets-downgraded-into-junk-at-sp-but-stock-biggest-gain-in-nearly-12-years-2020-03-24


Aaaaannnnddd...it's gone!

Kjazz130
03-24-2020, 04:33 PM
How long until DALPA comes out recommending that since the company reneged on our SIL agreement that no Pilots accept the PLOA? I guess management thinks we never learn from our mistakes. Either that or they are hoping that we enough new Pilots that have not been through something like this yet.

I am just dumbfounded as to how management can think that they can get the benefits of an agreement (April re-bid) and then just change their mind on their obligation (SILs) and still expect the Pilots to trust them.

Oh I get it now - things changed. If that's the case we can make a deal in the future when things stop changing - as in never.

Scoop :confused:

❤️ button .......

astrojet
03-24-2020, 04:38 PM
any pilot here who thinks we should help out mgt is nuts...that is what judges are for in CH-11 court

tropflyer
03-24-2020, 04:39 PM
Whether duplicity or stupidity, I'm done with this management. They take no responsibility and show no humility for the situation we find ourselves in. We gave in BK, the took that money and enriched themselves for generations. Don't give an inch without snap backs and huge QOL improvements that are permanent.

I agree with you, with one exception: We should not give an inch. Period. Snapbacks and QOL improvements down the road cannot be relied upon.

Weíve already given plenty of relief via the April re-bid and SIL LOA. We could pursue a voluntary early retirement option similar to AAís for some cost relief off the top of the pay scale. Other than that, weíve already given enough.

APCLurker
03-24-2020, 04:39 PM
On Friday, we should have prepared 3 offers for management, ALL of which agree to cut ALV for MAY, JUNE, and JULY.

In exchange we need guarantees that no pilot will be furloughed for the next 18 months.

Additionally, we should produce 3 versions that each have various snapbacks and incentives that would trigger with future levels of profitability.

Give them a few offers to choose from. Don't overdue it, but obtain reasonable rewards for being team players.


That sounds good on paper but management just showed, once again, that they will take the deal, then back out of their end of the bargain (Sils).

They will not honor their deal folks. How many more examples do we need??

.Gov bailout. And if they won't do that, they obviously don't need our help.

AAL24
03-24-2020, 04:51 PM
Just curious why some pilots want to avoid govt backed loans and the strings attached? Those strings are almost entirely in our favor. No buybacks, executive bonuses, golden parachutes, or layoffs before Sept 1. I can easily see why mgt wouldnít want to limit their compensation going forward. Particularly when the CEO has made over 100 million in the last few years from stock sales. Or maybe itís a badge of honor to avoid govt assistance? I must be missing something.

queuetip
03-24-2020, 04:52 PM
This is posturing so they can blame pilots for furloughs and forced hours reductions in the other employee groups. They know we're going to say no, there's no possible way they could expect this MEC to say yes. Their next move is to pin the blame of firing granny who's been here for forty years on us instead of their mismanagement of the company's financial health. Remember, skate to where the puck is going to be. We say no, they blame us, they claim force majeur and violate the contract anyway. In some respects, it makes the most sense to send whatever proposal the company has to MEMRAT, that takes at least thirty days right? At 50 mil a day, that's 1.5 billion dollars to hear us say no.

Texasbound
03-24-2020, 04:53 PM
That sounds good on paper but management just showed, once again, that they will take the deal, then back out of their end of the bargain (Sils).

They will not honor their deal folks. How many more examples do we need??

.Gov bailout. And if they won't do that, they obviously don't need our help.


Wait what? They just put "Thank You" on an airplane with all of your names on it. Saw Delta pilots loving it all over Facebook, management loves and appreciates you, you should do the same.

Iceberg
03-24-2020, 05:00 PM
Wait what? They just put "Thank You" on an airplane with all of your names on it. Saw Delta pilots loving it all over Facebook, management loves and appreciates you, you should do the same.

Not to worry, I do love and appreciate me. I do appreciate your concern, though. So nice of you to speak up.

gopher3
03-24-2020, 05:03 PM
Wait what? They just put "Thank You" on an airplane with all of your names on it. Saw Delta pilots loving it all over Facebook, management loves and appreciates you, you should do the same.

Plenty of Sheeple in the ranks that desire a selfie and autograph from Sleepy. Maybe they will finally wake up.

beis77
03-24-2020, 05:27 PM
Just curious why some pilots want to avoid govt backed loans and the strings attached? Those strings are almost entirely in our favor. No buybacks, executive bonuses, golden parachutes, or layoffs before Sept 1. I can easily see why mgt wouldnít want to limit their compensation going forward. Particularly when the CEO has made over 100 million in the last few years from stock sales. Or maybe itís a badge of honor to avoid govt assistance? I must be missing something.

I donít think anyone disagrees with this. The bail out does help labor and provides us with job protection. I think people are skeptical that the company doesnít want the bailout because of the strings attached.

Abouttime2fish
03-24-2020, 06:01 PM
Doing the math is a foolís errand. The company has three options to modify pilot payroll: furlough, SILs, and KLOAs. Why wait until Friday? Give them the answer now. Under no circumstances should this group agree to anything before the terms of the bailout are made known. No need to accelerate to the scene of the accident.

Iíd wait until 2359 Friday, then tell them we would get back to them next week. Maybe.

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 06:01 PM
The other huge advantage to an ALV reduction is reducing the number of displacements. Whether it be bidding power in category, category and status, or a job; we all benefit.

By my now out of date calculations the 3/22 fleet plan (which has been revised -100 already) would see the following displacements.

777 - 105
350 - 90
330 - 375
756 - 1470

737 - 1050
A320 - 825
M88 -615
717 - 405
220 - 0

Now I will be the very first to admit my numbers aren't perfect and neither is the ALV solution. Low ALV's will not save a fleet like the MD88 or 717, no matter what. The high ALV's will be reduced about 14% to 72 hours. If another 6 to 10 hours avoids the waterfall from the 777, 330 and 7ER, that would benefit just about everyone. I'd agree with the OP that the lost ALV should be saved in deferred compensation. The resulting training cost savings would be in the neighborhood of $300m.

We are all in this together. Our goal should be to ensure no Delta pilot's pay goes to zero and that all Delta pilots are treated equally.

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 06:03 PM
Iíd wait until 2359 Friday, then tell them we would get back to them next week. Maybe.

Then they will just do what they have to do without our input and tell us that they'll see us at the courthouse.

Abouttime2fish
03-24-2020, 06:08 PM
Then they will just do what they have to do without our input and tell us that they'll see us at the courthouse.

probably where this is going anyway, but ok. At 5 pm we moon Ed with a big NO across my arse.

maybe I shouldnít do the negotiating,,,,

Jaww
03-24-2020, 06:24 PM
probably where this is going anyway, but ok. At 5 pm we moon Ed with a big NO across my arse.

maybe I shouldnít do the negotiating,,,,

No, but I like your style.

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 06:24 PM
The other huge advantage to an ALV reduction is reducing the number of displacements. Whether it be bidding power in category, category and status, or a job; we all benefit.

By my now out of date calculations the 3/22 fleet plan (which has been revised -100 already) would see the following displacements.

777 - 105
350 - 90
330 - 375
756 - 1470

737 - 1050
A320 - 825
M88 -615
717 - 405
220 - 0

Now I will be the very first to admit my numbers aren't perfect and neither is the ALV solution. Low ALV's will not save a fleet like the MD88 or 717, no matter what. The high ALV's will be reduced about 14% to 72 hours. If another 6 to 10 hours avoids the waterfall from the 777, 330 and 7ER, that would benefit just about everyone. I'd agree with the OP that the lost ALV should be saved in deferred compensation. The resulting training cost savings would be in the neighborhood of $300m.

We are all in this together. Our goal should be to ensure no Delta pilot's pay goes to zero and that all Delta pilots are treated equally.

Holy panic button, batman. You act like these are permanent cuts?? This is a temporary setback. The 88 is done... and that's it.

I was telling you earlier today... your pilot numbers are bad and accomplish nothing. It's irresponsible and misleading as you don't know the numbers as there are too many variables you have to assume. You should have just stuck with posting which jets are ready to go but parked, short term parked, and long term parked, but you're so freaking set going down the road of fear you're stuck in transmit.

Now is not the time to be Chicken Little.

Kjazz130
03-24-2020, 06:26 PM
If you look at the most recent COVID19 update Email they canít even say that an employee that takes a 30-, 60-, or 90-day LOA/PLOA can be guaranteed to return to their job....Very telling

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 06:31 PM
Holy panic button, batman. You act like these are permanent cuts?? This is a temporary setback. The 88 is done... and that's it.

I was telling you earlier today... your pilot numbers are bad and accomplish nothing. It's irresponsible and misleading as you don't know the numbers as there are too many variables you have to assume. You should have just stuck with posting which jets are ready to go but parked, short term parked, and long term parked, but you're so freaking set going down the road of fear you're stuck in transmit.

Now is not the time to be Chicken Little.

Now is the time to set goals for negotiations and stress test contingency plans.

Your displacement will cost you 38%. How is a 6 to 10 hour ALV reduction, deferred into future compensation look now?

But you are right, the numbers from Crew Planning will be more accurate. No doubt about that.

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 06:32 PM
Now is the time to set goals for negotiations and stress test contingency plans.

Your displacement will cost you 38%. How is a 6 to 10 hour ALV reduction, deferred into future compensation, look now?

Again... you are making so many assumptions that your numbers are absolutely worthless.

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 06:33 PM
Again... you are making so many assumptions that your numbers are absolutely worthless.

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/8f/8f1109c70ac5d8c8491b1651a876ca59c0c94f513b9bfc7b0f 8ed3b938d3810e.jpg

bohicagain
03-24-2020, 06:36 PM
The other huge advantage to an ALV reduction is reducing the number of displacements. Whether it be bidding power in category, category and status, or a job; we all benefit.

By my now out of date calculations the 3/22 fleet plan (which has been revised -100 already) would see the following displacements.

777 - 105
350 - 90
330 - 375
756 - 1470

737 - 1050
A320 - 825
M88 -615
717 - 405
220 - 0

Now I will be the very first to admit my numbers aren't perfect and neither is the ALV solution. Low ALV's will not save a fleet like the MD88 or 717, no matter what. The high ALV's will be reduced about 14% to 72 hours. If another 6 to 10 hours avoids the waterfall from the 777, 330 and 7ER, that would benefit just about everyone. I'd agree with the OP that the lost ALV should be saved in deferred compensation. The resulting training cost savings would be in the neighborhood of $300m.

We are all in this together. Our goal should be to ensure no Delta pilot's pay goes to zero and that all Delta pilots are treated equally.

Displacements?
is this based on 8 flights to Europe?

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 06:40 PM
Displacements?
is this based on 8 flights to Europe?

No, this was simply a now out of date fleet park plan. The new plan is -100 jets from this one according to Ryan Gumm in today's town hall. The actual numbers are probably worse, but I don't want to be further accused of fear mongering, so let me observe the number of new cases in the US broke trend lines and was FEWER than yesterday.

Its OK the "full pay until the last day" crowd is beating their chest so much that even Jane Goodall thinks it is a bit much.

I think we should use our union for it's intended purpose of defending pilots' jobs; as much as can be done. I don't expect helping others to be popular.

Turbo1
03-24-2020, 06:41 PM
Just curious why some pilots want to avoid govt backed loans and the strings attached? Those strings are almost entirely in our favor. No buybacks, executive bonuses, golden parachutes, or layoffs before Sept 1. I can easily see why mgt wouldnít want to limit their compensation going forward. Particularly when the CEO has made over 100 million in the last few years from stock sales. Or maybe itís a badge of honor to avoid govt assistance? I must be missing something.
because they're ****ing idiots and uninformed

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 06:47 PM
No, this was simply a now out of date fleet park plan. The new plan is -100 jets from this one according to Ryan Gumm in today's town hall. The actual numbers are probably worse, but I don't want to be further accused of fear mongering, so let me observe the number of new cases in the US broke trend lines and was FEWER than yesterday.

Its OK the "full pay until the last day" crowd is beating their chest so much that even Jane Goodall thinks it is a bit much.

I think we should use our union for it's intended purpose of defending pilots' jobs; as much as can be done. I don't expect helping others to be popular.

Doesn't really help any cause or save any jobs coming at things with just horrible numbers. Bad data= failure

BTW, we saved the company more than all the other groups combined with the April rebid.

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 06:52 PM
Doesn't really help any cause or save any jobs coming at things with just horrible numbers. Bad data= failure

BTW, we saved the company more than all the other groups combined with the April rebid.

Anyone can see what's coming with Town Hall discussions going from -25% to -80% in a week, 100 additional airplanes getting parked, SILs cancelled because they were deemed too expensive and our company's debt getting "junk." We need to be thinking about contingency plans, modeling those plans (ALPA, not me) and discussing alternatives. Kind of like designing an airplane. You write a checklist for a Cargo Fire, you don't argue about how bad it will be and wait for it to burn through the floorboards to consider how to write a checklist. Nope, you figure it out as well as you can beforehand.

Mesabah
03-24-2020, 06:54 PM
Just curious why some pilots want to avoid govt backed loans and the strings attached? Those strings are almost entirely in our favor. No buybacks, executive bonuses, golden parachutes, or layoffs before Sept 1. I can easily see why mgt wouldnít want to limit their compensation going forward. Particularly when the CEO has made over 100 million in the last few years from stock sales. Or maybe itís a badge of honor to avoid govt assistance? I must be missing something.
The public wonít see not taking the government bailout as saving the taxpayers, not this time.

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 06:58 PM
Anyone can see what's coming with Town Hall discussions going from -25% to -80% in a week, 100 additional airplanes getting parked, SILs cancelled because they were deemed too expensive and our company's debt getting "junk." We need to be thinking about contingency plans, modeling those plans (ALPA, not me) and discussing alternatives. Kind of like designing an airplane. You write a checklist for a Cargo Fire, you don't argue about how bad it will be and wait for it to burn through the floorboards to consider how to write a checklist. Nope, you figure it out as well as you can beforehand.

Can't you see that is propaganda?? They want to see just how many concessions they can get on the cheap, and you've got a helmet fire over it. Notice how AA and UA are still doing their expansive SIL programs? We can afford it... they just saw how many are giving it to them for free and wanted to see what they can get.

Fly the airplane, do not hurry, cancel the warning, do the checklist/ECAM.

For your airplane analogy, you've got 10% of the figures you need but are trying to design the full checklist in a panic because you saw something you didn't like today.

Jaww
03-24-2020, 06:58 PM
The public wonít see not taking the government bailout as saving the taxpayers, not this time.

Not a grammar Nazi but Iíve been drinking and there are too many negatives in that sentence. You broke me.

eruption
03-24-2020, 06:58 PM
Anyone can see what's coming with Town Hall discussions going from -25% to -80% in a week, 100 additional airplanes getting parked, SILs cancelled because they were deemed too expensive and our company's debt getting "junk." We need to be thinking about contingency plans, modeling those plans (ALPA, not me) and discussing alternatives. Kind of like designing an airplane. You write a checklist for a Cargo Fire, you don't argue about how bad it will be and wait for it to burn through the floorboards to consider how to write a checklist. Nope, you figure it out as well as you can beforehand.

How about we work for free? Will that save Delta?
It might add one extra week of solvency.

NO CONCESSIONS!

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 07:03 PM
How about we work for free? Will that save Delta?
It might add one extra week of solvency.

NO CONCESSIONS!

Avoiding displacement while deferring lost ALV hours is worth more career $ than any other alternative.

Why wouldn't we try to maximize income while helping our junior pilots?

bluesky24
03-24-2020, 07:03 PM
Anyone can see what's coming with Town Hall discussions going from -25% to -80% in a week, 100 additional airplanes getting parked, SILs cancelled because they were deemed too expensive and our company's debt getting "junk." We need to be thinking about contingency plans, modeling those plans (ALPA, not me) and discussing alternatives. Kind of like designing an airplane. You write a checklist for a Cargo Fire, you don't argue about how bad it will be and wait for it to burn through the floorboards to consider how to write a checklist. Nope, you figure it out as well as you can beforehand.

Its hard to assess the damage and fix it in the middle of a storm. Itís best to wait for the skies to clear, see the damage clearly, and then figure out how to rebuild. This is a time bucket emergency.

newKnow
03-24-2020, 07:03 PM
Can't you see that is propaganda?? They want to see just how many concessions they can get on the cheap, and you've got a helmet fire over it. Notice how AA and UA are still doing their expansive SIL programs? We can afford it... they just saw how many are giving it to them for free and wanted to see what they can get.

Fly the airplane, do not hurry, cancel the warning, do the checklist/ECAM.

For your airplane analogy, you've got 10% of the figures you need but are trying to design the full checklist in a panic because you saw something you didn't like today.


You are a smart man, 80. How did you get to be so wise? :)

tropflyer
03-24-2020, 07:05 PM
Then they will just do what they have to do without our input and tell us that they'll see us at the courthouse.

Good! Let them! If the situation actually becomes that dire then they can take the necessary cuts in chapter 11.

Weíre not going to see that scenario soon, if at all, with private financing and government bailout money on the horizon. There is no reason to start giving away concessions now, only to open the door to management double-dipping later on. We have a shrewd management team that is attempting to play on pilotsí fears and their ďDelta DifferenceĒ message. The Delta Difference is that theyíre trying to get us to give away concessions that our peers at AA and UA are not.

Weíve given management the option of SILs for the May/June bid periods. They can start by using that tool if theyíre truly concerned about pilot labor costs.

CX500T
03-24-2020, 07:05 PM
Not a grammar Nazi but Iíve been drinking and there are too many negatives in that sentence. You broke me.
https://youtu.be/dxxWMkxgZ6s

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 07:08 PM
Can't you see that is propaganda??

Yeah, empty airplanes, flying them to Victoville and telling the mechanics which ones they can rob parts from is entirely propaganda designed to influence Delta pilots' politics. Completely fake news and we don't need to do anything, in fact, I think the real number is five, no one, and will be none in a week.

https://xheimmxl4gfvfghng2jjos4qhb.gcdn.anvato.net/captures/114/F99/114F99DE91E7429BA65766498A4D8CC5.jpg?Expires=16796 48738&KeyName=mcpkey1&Signature=I5sOWaIXrCu7eQauDj8URsCi0Hc (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta-Air-Lines/Boeing-757-232/2589392/)

... and I want a Model Y Performance and this is throwing off my ridiculous purchase of a 3.3 Second 0to60 to blow C Christian off the road in his Jeep.

Planetrain
03-24-2020, 07:09 PM
We donít know how long these planes are going to be parked, nor does management, nor does anyone else.

1 month?
3 months?
6 months?
half come back at 6 months?

No one knows yet.

600 planes is a lot. But it doesnít mean 600 planes parked forever.

Dont we have a lot to be delivered this year too, so net this is less than 600?

eruption
03-24-2020, 07:10 PM
Avoiding displacement while deferring lost ALV hours is worth more career $ than any other alternative.

Why wouldn't we try to maximize income while helping our junior pilots?

Because we tried this leading up to our first bankruptcy.
All it did was set a lower bar to the BK judge.

Then we spent the next 15 years trying to get back to square one.

Bucking Bar
03-24-2020, 07:11 PM
Because we tried this leading up to our first bankruptcy.
All it did was set a lower bar to the BK judge.

Then we spent the next 15 years trying to get back to square one.

Lower ALV's were tried with deferred compensation?

I thought the company went after straight up pay cuts.

Please fill us in on that history.

eruption
03-24-2020, 07:17 PM
Lower ALV's were tried with deferred compensation?

I thought the company went after straight up pay cuts.

Please fill us in on that history.

You are right....what I'm saying is we have been down this road of CONCESSIONS, in exchange for a promise later, only to end up in front of a judge with our concessions.

Even more troubling is it's the same Sleepy Ed that did it the first time.

Do you really trust him or his execs?

Heck, what they just did ref the SIL pull down should answer that question....and yes I know there was wording in the LOA to allow them to back out.

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 07:22 PM
Yeah, empty airplanes, flying them to Victoville and telling the mechanics which ones they can rob parts from is entirely propaganda designed to influence Delta pilots' politics. Completely fake news and we don't need to do anything, in fact, I think the real number is five, no one, and will be none in a week.
... and I want a Model Y Performance and this is throwing off my ridiculous purchase of a 3.3 Second 0to60 to blow C Christian off the road in his Jeep.

Except that's not what I said at all. The propaganda is trying to cause a panic to see what we will give up for free like the other employee groups have done. You're stuck in transmit.

I saw the spread sheet, too. The planes that are ok to rob parts off of are primarily 88's that are gone anyways. Most of the aircraft are flagged as short term parked. Take a breath, pour a White Russian, and get a good night of sleep.

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 07:22 PM
You are a smart man, 80. How did you get to be so wise? :)

Let's just say I learned from the best. :D

forgot to bid
03-24-2020, 07:58 PM
Fly the airplane, do not hurry, cancel the warning, do the checklist/ECAM.


Wouldn't it be more fun to panic?

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 07:59 PM
Wouldn't it be more fun to panic?

There's a reason why Leeroy Jenkins is a favorite example to use for CRM/TEM in an emergency. :D

LkCNJRfSZBU

WhiskeyDelta
03-24-2020, 08:04 PM
We donít know how long these planes are going to be parked, nor does management, nor does anyone else.

1 month?
3 months?
6 months?
half come back at 6 months?

No one knows yet.

600 planes is a lot. But it doesnít mean 600 planes parked forever.

Dont we have a lot to be delivered this year too, so net this is less than 600?

We only care about 430 of those 600. 430 is still a huge number but those are the ones we as pilots want to come back first.

forgot to bid
03-24-2020, 08:08 PM
There's a reason why Leeroy Jenkins is a favorite example to use for CRM/TEM in an emergency. :D

LkCNJRfSZBU

that's why WARTS briefings have to be brief.

Gunfighter
03-24-2020, 08:14 PM
Then they will just do what they have to do without our input and tell us that they'll see us at the courthouse.

Would you like to meet at the courthouse with a concession laden contract as the starting point?

You have some great insight and logical input on many aspects of airline life. You can do a lot to help out your union union brothers and sisters by just winding the clock. Let's see what the govt bailout contains first. Ed and his team are creating a false sense of urgency, so we panic into a bunch of unnecessary concessions.

Our management team is panicked right now. They didn't see this coming and are likely to make mistakes. You and I have the training to remain calm in difficult situations. Nothing is happening that requires immediate action and certainly not immediate concessions. Today's letter was telling. It is a fantastic reminder of what management will do. I'm glad the only cost was a small concession of rebidding April.

forgot to bid
03-24-2020, 08:18 PM
Fly the airplane, do not hurry, cancel the warning, do the checklist/ECAM.

For your airplane analogy, you've got 10% of the figures you need but are trying to design the full checklist in a panic because you saw something you didn't like today.

Here is another airplane analogy: you're in cruise at 350, airspeed goes from 280 knots to 40 knots in 3 seconds, imho it's not a good idea to immediately yank back on the sidestick to 15 degrees nose up.

80ktsClamp
03-24-2020, 08:35 PM
that's why WARTS briefings have to be brief.

Brief briefings make for good listeners. :)

So true on the AF447 comparison. NW had the same malfunction... the reaction was "hey let's just keep it right side up at the same pitch and power and give it a couple to see what we're dealing with here." Sure enough, the ice melted and off they continued.

gopher3
03-24-2020, 08:53 PM
Would you like to meet at the courthouse with a concession laden contract as the starting point?

You have some great insight and logical input on many aspects of airline life. You can do a lot to help out your union union brothers and sisters by just winding the clock. Let's see what the govt bailout contains first. Ed and his team are creating a false sense of urgency, so we panic into a bunch of unnecessary concessions.

Our management team is panicked right now. They didn't see this coming and are likely to make mistakes. You and I have the training to remain calm in difficult situations. Nothing is happening that requires immediate action and certainly not immediate concessions. Today's letter was telling. It is a fantastic reminder of what management will do. I'm glad the only cost was a small concession of rebidding April.

Well said Gunfighter

SOFA
03-24-2020, 09:22 PM
Back to an earlier post about other employees giving the stink eye about pilots being paid to not fly. Got that today. You donít just hire off the streets and spin us up in two-four weeks to put us on the line. Like the planes we fly, we are a long term investment (years of work went into that). We are parking the 88ís like they were hired in 1988ish, as the dudes/dudettes that make them go. Doesnít mean that you donít still pay for them while the world situation means they donít fly. You still pay, but at a reduced cost. Iím okay with giving some now when needed, but give back when realized (just like our planes did). Itíll be a while before we all forget COVID19, learn from our mistakes from not saving for rainy days, and go back to splurging on flying everywhere in the world. Some big businesses may not come back to us and stick with virtual meetings, so we may not get back to the whole. But, we will continue on maybe a bit smaller. I would think that we offer-up a plan that we can all do a great delta giveback (subject to MEMRAT) that keeps us going forward. Lastly, calling on RA to please come back.

Denny Crane
03-24-2020, 09:23 PM
Avoiding displacement while deferring lost ALV hours is worth more career $ than any other alternative.

Why wouldn't we try to maximize income while helping our junior pilots?

Deferring ALV hours for 3 months is NOT going to stop the company from displacing pilots if it wants too. That is your mistake.

Denny

Denny Crane
03-24-2020, 09:34 PM
Lower ALV's were tried with deferred compensation?

I thought the company went after straight up pay cuts.

Please fill us in on that history.

Lower ALV = Lower Pay. Did this prebankruptcy last time and where did that get us........oh yeah we gave ANOTHER 16% in BK.

As far as ďdeferred compensationĒ goes........you do know where that goes in event of BK? Iíll help you, right down the toilet and then guess what, they come back for MORE in BK too.

IMO it would/will be foolish of us to provide any serious concession/give back/help or however you want to couch it. The company will just enter BK again and ask for even more. Fool me once, same on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Many of us have already been fooled once...

Denny

Denny Crane
03-24-2020, 09:37 PM
Can’t seem to find the Ed memo some are talking about. Could someone post a link or PM it to me? Thx

Denny

SOFA
03-24-2020, 09:38 PM
Back to an earlier post about other employees giving the stink eye about pilots being paid to not fly. Got that today. You donít just hire off the streets and spin us up in two-four weeks to put us on the line. Like the planes we fly, we are a long term investment (years of work went into that). We are parking the 88ís like they were hired in 1988ish, as the dudes/dudettes that make them go. Doesnít mean that you donít still pay for them while the world situation means they donít fly. You still pay, but at a reduced cost. Iím okay with giving some now when needed, but give back when realized (just like our planes did). Itíll be a while before we all forget COVID19, learn from our mistakes from not saving for rainy days, and go back to splurging on flying everywhere in the world. Some big businesses may not come back to us and stick with virtual meetings, so we may not get back to the whole. But, we will continue on maybe a bit smaller. I would think that we offer-up a plan that we can all do a great delta giveback (subject to MEMRAT) that keeps us going forward. Lastly, calling on RA to please come back.

Der Meister
03-24-2020, 09:42 PM
Canít seem to find the Ed memo some are talking about. Could someone post a link or PM it to me? Thx

Denny
check your company email

SOFA
03-24-2020, 09:46 PM
Back to an earlier post about other employees giving the stink eye about pilots being paid to not fly. Got that today. You donít just hire off the streets and spin us up in two-four weeks to put us on the line. Like the planes we fly, we are a long term investment (years of work went into that). We are parking the 88ís like they were hired in 1988ish, as the dudes/dudettes that make them go. Doesnít mean that you donít still pay for them while the world situation means they donít fly. You still pay, but at a reduced cost. Iím okay with giving some now when needed, but give back when realized (just like our planes did). Itíll be a while before we all forget COVID19, learn from our mistakes from not saving for rainy days, and go back to splurging on flying everywhere in the world. Some big businesses may not come back to us and stick with virtual meetings, so we may not get back to the whole. But, we will continue on maybe a bit smaller. I would think that we offer-up a plan that we can all do a great delta giveback (subject to MEMRAT) that keeps us going forward. Lastly, calling on RA to please come back.

newKnow
03-24-2020, 09:51 PM
Yeah, empty airplanes, flying them to Victoville and telling the mechanics which ones they can rob parts from is entirely propaganda designed to influence Delta pilots' politics. Completely fake news and we don't need to do anything, in fact, I think the real number is five, no one, and will be none in a week.

https://xheimmxl4gfvfghng2jjos4qhb.gcdn.anvato.net/captures/114/F99/114F99DE91E7429BA65766498A4D8CC5.jpg?Expires=16796 48738&KeyName=mcpkey1&Signature=I5sOWaIXrCu7eQauDj8URsCi0Hc (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta-Air-Lines/Boeing-757-232/2589392/)

... and I want a Model Y Performance and this is throwing off my ridiculous purchase of a 3.3 Second 0to60 to blow C Christian off the road in his Jeep.

Since the merger was announced, as pilots, we've worked nearly 12 years to build a superior airline. That's what we were told, right? Even the new hires would tell us, they didn't want to be anywhere else. That's what the critics told us. We strove all this time to beat Alaska, beat Southwest -- win awards, set and meet performance goals. Finally, that's what our balance sheets told us. Compared to, not only the other airlines, but also to almost any other business on the face of the earth. "We" made billions of dollars in profit year after year -- placing us in a much more favorable financial position than the other airlines.


With the above facts being what they are -- facts -- Why in the hell would we consider taking ANYTHING less then the other pilot groups at the other airlines?

Why the rush to give back to strengthen something that compared to our competitors is strong? We are less than a month into this. Relax. Chill.

There is no way ANY Delta pilot should even speak of conceeding a dime of pay, or a minute of ALV until American, United, and SWA pilots do the same. Even then, it should only be discussed begrudgingly. In fact, we should insist on getting, at the very least, what they get.

Don't forget, last time, we gave up the very essense of what being a major airline pilot was, and when we tried to get a portion of it back, when they were making billions of dollar's in profits a year, they resisted.

Seems like they had enough money to buy 49% of airlines on every continent, but not enough to consider restoring the pensions of people who had worked for them for decades. But now, after changing their mind about SIL's, they want those same people to consider taking a leave and not getting paid for a month, or two, to help protect the company?

At a time when we not only have to worry about our safety when we go to work, and our family's safey when we get home, they want us to worry about protecting the company, by taking no pay? Come on.

That is different and I'm sure a lot of new guys are a little shocked. I'm not, though.

That's the Delta Difference that a lot of us knew was there all along.

Different treatment under different circumstances.

CatDad
03-24-2020, 09:59 PM
Lower ALV = Lower Pay. Did this prebankruptcy last time and where did that get us........oh yeah we gave ANOTHER 16% in BK.

As far as ďdeferred compensationĒ goes........you do know where that goes in event of BK? Iíll help you, right down the toilet and then guess what, they come back for MORE in BK too.

IMO it would/will be foolish of us to provide any serious concession/give back/help or however you want to couch it. The company will just enter BK again and ask for even more. Fool me once, same on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Many of us have already been fooled once...

Denny

Brings up a question I have. What happens to our full service bank in event of furlough?

Denny Crane
03-24-2020, 10:11 PM
Brings up a question I have. What happens to our full service bank in event of furlough?

Not 100% sure but this is what I believe. It will be paid out before/when one is furloughed. The rate is whatever rate you are on at time of furlough or at whatever rate itís withdrawn at prior to furlough.

Denny

Denny Crane
03-24-2020, 10:15 PM
Since the merger was announced, as pilots, we've worked nearly 12 years to build a superior airline. That's what we were told, right? Even the new hires would tell us, they didn't want to be anywhere else. That's what the critics told us. We strove all this time to beat Alaska, beat Southwest -- win awards, set and meet performance goals. Finally, that's what our balance sheets told us. Compared to, not only the other airlines, but also to almost any other business on the face of the earth. "We" made billions of dollars in profit year after year -- placing us in a much more favorable financial position than the other airlines.


With the above facts being what they are -- facts -- Why in the hell would we consider taking ANYTHING less then the other pilot groups at the other airlines?

Why the rush to give back to strengthen something that compared to our competitors is strong? We are less than a month into this. Relax. Chill.

There is no way ANY Delta pilot should even speak of conceeding a dime of pay, or a minute of ALV until American, United, and SWA pilots do the same. Even then, it should only be discussed begrudgingly. In fact, we should insist on getting, at the very least, what they get.

Don't forget, last time, we gave up the very essense of what being a major airline pilot was, and when we tried to get a portion of it back, when they were making billions of dollar's in profits a year, they resisted.

Seems like they had enough money to buy 49% of airlines on every continent, but not enough to consider restoring the pensions of people who had worked for them for decades. But now, after changing their mind about SIL's, they want those same people to consider taking a leave and not getting paid for a month, or two, to help protect the company?

At a time when we not only have to worry about our safety when we go to work, and our family's safey when we get home, they want us to worry about protecting the company, by taking no pay? Come on.

That is different and I'm sure a lot of new guys are a little shocked. I'm not, though.

That's the Delta Difference that a lot of us knew was there all along.

Different treatment under different circumstances.

Nice post newKnow. I highly recommend you newbies of the last few years listen to him and seriously consider what he has to say. He is one smart cookie!

Denny

SawF16
03-24-2020, 10:23 PM
Yeah, empty airplanes, flying them to Victoville and telling the mechanics which ones they can rob parts from is entirely propaganda designed to influence Delta pilots' politics. Completely fake news and we don't need to do anything, in fact, I think the real number is five, no one, and will be none in a week.

https://xheimmxl4gfvfghng2jjos4qhb.gcdn.anvato.net/captures/114/F99/114F99DE91E7429BA65766498A4D8CC5.jpg?Expires=16796 48738&KeyName=mcpkey1&Signature=I5sOWaIXrCu7eQauDj8URsCi0Hc (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Delta-Air-Lines/Boeing-757-232/2589392/)

... and I want a Model Y Performance and this is throwing off my ridiculous purchase of a 3.3 Second 0to60 to blow C Christian off the road in his Jeep.

You have also gone full retard.

SawF16
03-24-2020, 10:30 PM
Since the merger was announced, as pilots, we've worked nearly 12 years to build a superior airline. That's what we were told, right? Even the new hires would tell us, they didn't want to be anywhere else. That's what the critics told us. We strove all this time to beat Alaska, beat Southwest -- win awards, set and meet performance goals. Finally, that's what our balance sheets told us. Compared to, not only the other airlines, but also to almost any other business on the face of the earth. "We" made billions of dollars in profit year after year -- placing us in a much more favorable financial position than the other airlines.


With the above facts being what they are -- facts -- Why in the hell would we consider taking ANYTHING less then the other pilot groups at the other airlines?

Why the rush to give back to strengthen something that compared to our competitors is strong? We are less than a month into this. Relax. Chill.

There is no way ANY Delta pilot should even speak of conceeding a dime of pay, or a minute of ALV until American, United, and SWA pilots do the same. Even then, it should only be discussed begrudgingly. In fact, we should insist on getting, at the very least, what they get.

Don't forget, last time, we gave up the very essense of what being a major airline pilot was, and when we tried to get a portion of it back, when they were making billions of dollar's in profits a year, they resisted.

Seems like they had enough money to buy 49% of airlines on every continent, but not enough to consider restoring the pensions of people who had worked for them for decades. But now, after changing their mind about SIL's, they want those same people to consider taking a leave and not getting paid for a month, or two, to help protect the company?

At a time when we not only have to worry about our safety when we go to work, and our family's safey when we get home, they want us to worry about protecting the company, by taking no pay? Come on.

That is different and I'm sure a lot of new guys are a little shocked. I'm not, though.

That's the Delta Difference that a lot of us knew was there all along.

Different treatment under different circumstances.
NewK, I have argued against your positions in the past, but this is top notch stuff. Tip oí the hat, brother.

CX500T
03-24-2020, 10:45 PM
Not 100% sure but this is what I believe. It will be paid out before/when one is furloughed. The rate is whatever rate you are on at time of furlough or at whatever rate itís withdrawn at prior to furlough.



DennyAnyone able to find where that is codified?
Denny Crane I believe you, but I just want to be able to point to where its written if they try to stiff me, either by not paying or paying at the furlough pay rate.

Also next month is showing 91 hours pay?
2 weeks of vacation. On reserve. This normal? Category is 72 alv.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

SkiBum95
03-25-2020, 12:26 AM
I can’t believe anyone is offering to reduce our ALVs when the company has shown they will simply take our concessions and then ignore their future promises. If they have sufficient financial reason to furlough then they’ll do it regardless of any reduced ALV. Even worse, they’ll use our concessions as a starting point in our next set of negotiations or, God forbid, a BK justification to cut more. I simply can see no reason to accept a reduction.

BNUT
03-25-2020, 02:24 AM
Not a grammar Nazi but Iíve been drinking and there are too many negatives in that sentence. You broke me.
I thought it was just me😃

Herkflyr
03-25-2020, 04:05 AM
Can't you see that is propaganda?? They want to see just how many concessions they can get on the cheap, and you've got a helmet fire over it. Notice how AA and UA are still doing their expansive SIL programs? We can afford it... they just saw how many are giving it to them for free and wanted to see what they can get.



Fly the airplane, do not hurry, cancel the warning, do the checklist/ECAM.



For your airplane analogy, you've got 10% of the figures you need but are trying to design the full checklist in a panic because you saw something you didn't like today.Or to counterpoint, Swissair 111 had a cockpit electrical fire. My understanding is the plane could have been saved, but the captain insisted on running every sub bullet of every checklist rather than proceed immediately to nearby Goose Bay. Everyone died. (I know you were an instructor. Perhaps I don't know the whole story?)

Sometimes you have to decide on a course of action quickly because saying "nothing to see here" would be catastrophic. If you are approaching the runway threshold and some nitwit decides then to creep on the runway, you go around that instant. You don't discuss all the pros and cons with the other pilot and ask "what page is that on in the FCTM?"

In the other hand if the same runway excursion happens at 1000 AGL then "proceed as planned, but let's be alert for possible change" is more appropriate than an uncalled-for immediate go around due to what MIGHT happen.

The key as pilots of course is to have the wherewithal to know the difference.

I'm deferring to the MEC here. I know our reps are getting bombarded right now. I won't add to the pile. But we are in a catastrophic revenue situation. Anyone claiming otherwise has not only their head, but shoulders chest and waist buried in the sand.

53x11
03-25-2020, 04:10 AM
Govt passed the 2 trillion dollar relief package during the night. Part of which is relief to the airlines.

Mesabah
03-25-2020, 04:15 AM
Not a grammar Nazi but Iíve been drinking and there are too many negatives in that sentence. You broke me.
heh, what I meant was, the only reason not to take the bailout would be, the executives plan to cash out prior to March 2022.

profit
03-25-2020, 04:37 AM
First, I'd like to thank everyone for not going down the political rabbit hole, and also the science rabbit hole.

I personally (hate on me if you want) wasn't a proponent of large pay increases for C2020, just some fixes to the broken parts of the PWA.

I'd happily let them lower ALV to keep EVERYONE on property, keep everyone current, allow for massive re-training from retired fleets (M88), and the ability to flex-up ALVs and block hours when the recovery begins.

Otherwise, not really interested in giving up ANYTHING contractual.

I'd love to know what the MEC is discussing/thinks.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-25-2020, 05:05 AM
Anyone able to find where that is codified?
Denny Crane I believe you, but I just want to be able to point to where its written if they try to stiff me, either by not paying or paying at the furlough pay rate.

Also next month is showing 91 hours pay?
2 weeks of vacation. On reserve. This normal? Category is 72 alv.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

I show 91:59 for April RES with ALV at 72 and 14 days of vacation at 3:45/day.

tunes
03-25-2020, 05:06 AM
First, I'd like to thank everyone for not going down the political rabbit hole, and also the science rabbit hole.

I personally (hate on me if you want) wasn't a proponent of large pay increases for C2020, just some fixes to the broken parts of the PWA.

I'd happily let them lower ALV to keep EVERYONE on property, keep everyone current, allow for massive re-training from retired fleets (M88), and the ability to flex-up ALVs and block hours when the recovery begins.

Otherwise, not really interested in giving up ANYTHING contractual.

I'd love to know what the MEC is discussing/thinks.


Lowering the ALV for 90 days will provide them about 1.5 days of liquidity. A drop in the bucket. Not to mention already how much we gave them with letting April be re-bid. There is a cash preservation process in place...itís called a SIL, if they choose to not utilize that they are not truly in cash preservation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

m3113n1a1
03-25-2020, 05:09 AM
Previously I thought our MEC was too combative, but I'll admit I was wrong. Now I am firmly behind them and will NOT vote for any type of concession or ALV reduction whatsoever. The company is going to do what the company wants to do regardless. And they're going to try to squeeze as much out of us as they can.


​​Good luck guys, not only are we dealing with a global pandemic and recession, but also a hostile management.

Viking busdvr
03-25-2020, 05:14 AM
First, I'd like to thank everyone for not going down the political rabbit hole, and also the science rabbit hole.

I personally (hate on me if you want) wasn't a proponent of large pay increases for C2020, just some fixes to the broken parts of the PWA.

I'd happily let them lower ALV to keep EVERYONE on property, keep everyone current, allow for massive re-training from retired fleets (M88), and the ability to flex-up ALVs and block hours when the recovery begins.

Otherwise, not really interested in giving up ANYTHING contractual.

I'd love to know what the MEC is discussing/thinks.

We did come to an agreement to lower the ALV all the way down to 55 hours for a large number of pilots who would have volunteered for that opportunity. Itís called a SIL...and the company decided they would rather save face with the other labor groups than to realize the real money-saving option we had agreed to. So they obviously do not need our help with this problem, nor can they be trusted to follow through on any agreements we make with them.....
Edit>>I see tunes beat me to it...

profit
03-25-2020, 05:41 AM
We did come to an agreement to lower the ALV all the way down to 55 hours for a large number of pilots who would have volunteered for that opportunity. Itís called a SIL...and the company decided they would rather save face with the other labor groups than to realize the real money-saving option we had agreed to. So they obviously do not need our help with this problem, nor can they be trusted to follow through on any agreements we make with them.....
Edit>>I see tunes beat me to it...

I don't entirely disagree. However, when we are flying 30 or 40% of normal block, having a portion of pilots at 2/3ish pay @55hrs and the rest at normal is not equivalent to everyone at (let's say 50% ALV). On napkin math, this is a huge difference in cost.

Having said that, I fully agree that pulling the SILs smells like bad faith.

I fully support whatever the MEC and the pilot group at large find acceptable. After going through a couple of bankruptcies (and being on the "inside" during), I have very little trust in management's goals and motives.

Viking busdvr
03-25-2020, 05:51 AM
I don't entirely disagree. However, when we are flying 30 or 40% of normal block, having a portion of pilots at 2/3ish pay @55hrs and the rest at normal is not equivalent to everyone at (let's say 50% ALV). On napkin math, this is a huge difference in cost.

Having said that, I fully agree that pulling the SILs smells like bad faith.

I fully support whatever the MEC and the pilot group at large find acceptable. After going through a couple of bankruptcies (and being on the "inside" during), I have very little trust in management's goals and motives.

I agree with you there!!

PS- care to share what you experienced/learned while ďon the insideĒ during previous bankruptcies??

BigGuns
03-25-2020, 05:59 AM
We have a guy from MESA AIRLINES named Ryan in a senior management position. I donít believe he can be trusted. In crisis he will return to his background and we all know what kind of place Mesa was and is.

FL370esq
03-25-2020, 06:21 AM
Anyone able to find where that is codified?
Denny Crane I believe you, but I just want to be able to point to where its written if they try to stiff me, either by not paying or paying at the furlough pay rate.

Also next month is showing 91 hours pay?
2 weeks of vacation. On reserve. This normal? Category is 72 alv.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk

91 hours sounds right in a category with a 72 hour ALV. You could use the John Bell Reserve Pay Calculator to cross-check that.

As for bank payouts, use 12.N.4 as your guide (the lesser of ALV+5 or 82 hours...but only in the current bid period). Further, 21.B.2 states you will be paid for all accrued (but not used) vacation. IIRC, back during the FM1 furloughs, that also included any positive bank balances (they wiped your slate clean) and you were paid at your current category rate because it is not, by definition, 21.B.7 furlough pay which is paid after the furlough.

Buck Rogers
03-25-2020, 06:46 AM
I don't entirely disagree. However, when we are flying 30 or 40% of normal block, having a portion of pilots at 2/3ish pay @55hrs and the rest at normal is not equivalent to everyone at (let's say 50% ALV). On napkin math, this is a huge difference in cost.


Having said that, I fully agree that pulling the SILs smells like bad faith.


I fully support whatever the MEC and the pilot group at large find acceptable. After going through a couple of bankruptcies (and being on the "inside" during), I have very little trust in management's goals and motives.



The SIL's might have saved 25 Million$$ per month....chump change in this environment. Do (you or anybody) know if the MEC SIL offer was a clean "bill" or did it come with a lot of "attachments".


Personally, until I know more(maybe I missed the answer somewhere), I'm pretty sanguine. Shiznit happens. Getting emotional is not going to solve much, but it may be therapeutic


I also fully support this MEC,I also agree that any future LOA's need to be MEMRAT (which I think this MEC said would happen)

notEnuf
03-25-2020, 06:49 AM
My new go to excuse is "things change" replacing "it's a leap year" :D

dbrownie
03-25-2020, 07:04 AM
We have a guy from MESA AIRLINES named Ryan in a senior management position. I donít believe he can be trusted. In crisis he will return to his background and we all know what kind of place Mesa was and is.

Agree, he is a concern.

Phins2right
03-25-2020, 07:15 AM
We have a guy from MESA AIRLINES named Ryan in a senior management position. I donít believe he can be trusted. In crisis he will return to his background and we all know what kind of place Mesa was and is.
He most definitely can not be trusted. This crisis isn't driving him to return to his background - he never left it.

profit
03-25-2020, 07:16 AM
I agree with you there!!

PS- care to share what you experienced/learned while ďon the insideĒ during previous bankruptcies??

I'd rather not go into real detail. I'm probably also legally restricted by Judge's gag orders, not assuming there is some expiration date. All I can say is it can get pretty ruthless, and sometimes dirty.

I'm a positive person by nature, and always hold hope that our management would do the right thing on all levels. But they have to be watched every step of the way, ESPECIALLY in a crisis situation. And I FULLY trust our MEC to do just that.

DARR31
03-25-2020, 07:21 AM
We have a guy from MESA AIRLINES named Ryan in a senior management position. I donít believe he can be trusted. In crisis he will return to his background and we all know what kind of place Mesa was and is.

I listened to the town hall yesterday with him. There is no real plan and we have no leadership in ops. It was like they were waiting for someone to tell them what to do! They talked about our completion rate was 50% while AA and UAL were around 90% and that scared them. I thought we were trying to save money by canceling flights? I guess not!

I see Gumm working on sodomizer 2.0. that will furlough a good chunk of the pilots and have the other half flying 80+ hr months so he can show a cost savings of not paying out on a SIL or early retirements. Both Sleepy and Gumm do not want to see any pilot getting paid for not working.

I am not sure how many WB captains in their early 60ís will want to go back to NB captain for multiple legs and a pay cut. If a lot of them do not, then the company just saved on the early retirement plan. Just a theory....

JamesBond
03-25-2020, 07:26 AM
As a line pilot Iíd like to state that since we have now been called upon to help bail out Delta, we should do so in a calculated and purposeful manner, one not rooted in fear. Hearing our management team sprinkle some optimism into their messages; that when we emerge from this we will be ready to grow and will capitalize on the opportunity of a new landscape, should be the same mindset of our ALPA leadership. The ďfull pay till the last dayĒ crowd are potentially overlooking an opportunity for us to not only ensure our survival but to greatly improve the PWA.

-I will potentially accept a 3 month line value cut. This would be a substantial monthly cost savings for the company when calculated over 14,500 pilots. However, this LOA must include a return of these lost hours into each pilotís bank which will be available for withdrawal after an additional 3 month waiting period (6 months from signing). Interest of 5% will also be applied to these hours.

In return we should seek to achieve no or low cost enhancements to our PWA.

-The international market currently doesn't exist. There is no reason Management couldn't make production balance changes to our JVís. A balance of 70% Delta flying would be more than fair when looking at what each airline brings to these given relationships. As Ed stated during the 40% capacity cut memo, this is unprecedented and worse than 9/11, and that was before the 70% capacity cut. A line value cut and a JV split of 70% should be a package deal. Our line value cut will end but this production balance shall be a permanent LOA.

-DH policy to mandate Comfort+ aisle or window seats. If a pilot is booked in a middle or economy seat the DH should pay 150%.

-Non-Rev travel has been significantly devalued over the years as load factors have increased making travel for families nearly impossible. Although not an issue during these troubling times, Iíd propose a NRPS pass for each pilot and their eligible pass riders tied to their number of vacation weeks. A pilot with 4 weeks of vacation would get 4 NRPS round trip passes. These should be bankable and never expire.

-100 hour sick verification should no longer exist. Management has and will always hold the necessary tools to identify and punish sick leave abusers. This policy was never about identifying those few pilots. This was about imposing barriers to drive down total sick leave usage. This is a no cost item, and in fact will reduce costs of pointless physician visits to get a note signed. If Management believes this has been an effective policy in reducing sick leave usage, would they claim this policy prevents individuals from actually getting sick or just discourages sick leave usage when a pilot is sick? Efforts in medicine, health and wellness reduce illness, not corporate policy. This not so subtle psychological push is also the corporate mentality many blame for individuals coming to work while sick, and thus at the very center of this current pandemic.

-23K gives the company an almost unprecedented level of flexibility. The end of the 6 month period should also sunset 23K IROP obligation. Normal coverage sequence will be utilized and the Company must maintain appropriate staffing levels so that pilots are not essentially converted to Reserve because of summer thunderstorms or IT mishaps.

We understand the gravity of this situation and realize our PWA, which was achievable in the near future will now be pushed off indefinitely. Also at the end of 6 months will be an immediate 3% raise. Additional 3% raises will be granted every 6 months until a new PWA is ratified. This will ensure that Management is equally as committed to the bargaining process.

The Delta Pilots stand ready to help Management get through this demand and cash flow crisis. However we will not allow this to be an opportunity for Management to use fear and impose long lasting cuts and erosion of the PWA, akin to what took place after 2001 and the ensuing bankruptcy period. If these are truly desperate times, Management should show no hesitation when accepting our massive cost cutting measure to help save Delta Air Lines.

If they show no willingness to provide these no/low cost items for our line value cut then I strongly urge my ALPA representation to not entertain any PWA relief.
No. no. no.

JamesBond
03-25-2020, 07:29 AM
And as someone the same seniority at hockey, Iím ok with lower ALVís to keep more guys in property. That what a union does.
And what does a 'union' do when a significant number of the senior guys have their retirements taken by the company?

flyallnite
03-25-2020, 07:35 AM
I listened to the town hall yesterday with him. There is no real plan and we have no leadership in ops. It was like they were waiting for someone to tell them what to do! They talked about our completion rate was 50% while AA and UAL were around 90% and that scared them. I thought we were trying to save money by canceling flights? I guess not!

I see Gumm working on sodomizer 2.0. that will furlough a good chunk of the pilots and have the other half flying 80+ hr months so he can show a cost savings of not paying out on a SIL or early retirements. Both Sleepy and Gumm do not want to see any pilot getting paid for not working.

I am not sure how many WB captains in their early 60ís will want to go back to NB captain for multiple legs and a pay cut. If a lot of them do not, then the company just saved on the early retirement plan. Just a theory....

I can think of no greater thing than a vote of NO CONFIDENCE in Gumm et.al. this Friday. I'm not giving that guy a DIME towards screwing us for a bonus. Don't negotiate with these guys. They've already shown what they think about agreements. Show these guys the door. Keep your head up and stand up for your PROFESSION. We are essential employees, and airlines are essential to the economy. Don't give up what you are worth and deserve. They have a plan. It won't change because you didn't give them half your pay, that is just an opportunistic move on their part. Management's goal is to make us bus drivers. This is an existential crisis for our profession. If we don't hold the line now, we are done. History shows us that recouping givebacks does not happen. Don't fall for the narrative. They can afford to pay us. They can't afford not to.

DALMD88FO
03-25-2020, 07:39 AM
I listened to the town hall yesterday with him. There is no real plan and we have no leadership in ops. It was like they were waiting for someone to tell them what to do! They talked about our completion rate was 50% while AA and UAL were around 90% and that scared them. I thought we were trying to save money by canceling flights? I guess not!

I see Gumm working on sodomizer 2.0. that will furlough a good chunk of the pilots and have the other half flying 80+ hr months so he can show a cost savings of not paying out on a SIL or early retirements. Both Sleepy and Gumm do not want to see any pilot getting paid for not working.

I am not sure how many WB captains in their early 60ís will want to go back to NB captain for multiple legs and a pay cut. If a lot of them do not, then the company just saved on the early retirement plan. Just a theory....

My bet is that it doesn't go below 2,500 fuloughs or he will furlough himself I think that would be a first in this industry. One VP of flight ops is not a pilot and another on furlough.

BigGuns
03-25-2020, 07:40 AM
They talked about our completion rate was 50% while AA and UAL were around 90% and that scared them. I thought we were trying to save money by canceling flights? I guess not!


He was talked about JetBlue and UA, but AA is is similar. Those numbers will change drastically April 1st. Those companies have a large amount of debt leveraged aircraft which makes it hard to pull cost from the fleet because you still to pay the lease. This drives them to operate the aircraft scrap every bit of revenue they can to minimize the lease loss.

I donít know why John could not articulate that better in the webinar. Thatís the down fall of live TV.

queuetip
03-25-2020, 07:43 AM
Wasn't there supposed to be a townhall today around lunch with Joanne Smith and Ed and one other dude on skynet? Did they quietly cancel that?

DALMD88FO
03-25-2020, 07:44 AM
Wasn't there supposed to be a townhall today around lunch with Joanne Smith and Ed and one other dude on skynet? Did they quietly cancel that?
I think it's at 1430.

gopher3
03-25-2020, 08:11 AM
No. no. no.

Agreed..some pilots just never learn from history. The only thing that has changed is the execs keep getting richer after they steamroll us.

Phins2right
03-25-2020, 08:17 AM
agreed..some pilots just never learn from history. The only thing that has changed is the execs keep getting richer after they steamroll us.
^^^^truth^^^^

Banzai
03-25-2020, 08:21 AM
Agreed..some pilots just never learn from history. The only thing that has changed is the execs keep getting richer after they steamroll us.
This time is different! Iím sure of it! 😁

If the company furloughs, Iím willing to talk ALV reduction before paycuts to bring them back. The company needs to blink first, and what we do now isnít going to drive furloughs one way or another.

An ALV reduction for a future payout is a foolís errand. An ALV reduction for an immediate response of bringing pilots back is something that would pay immediately if needed.

JamesBond
03-25-2020, 08:30 AM
This time is different! Iím sure of it! 😁

If the company furloughs, Iím willing to talk ALV reduction before paycuts to bring them back. The company needs to blink first, and what we do now isnít going to drive furloughs one way or another.

An ALV reduction for a future payout is a foolís errand. An ALV reduction for an immediate response of bringing pilots back is something that would pay immediately if needed.And you know this.... how? Dude, the accountants have micrometers out. They know to the day how long they need to keep any furloughees out to break even or even make money. It is complete folly to believe that any cuts we voluntarily take will make a difference. Once the furloughs start, there is a timeline set. Anything we try to do to bring them back before the calculated time is gravy to the company.

Banzai
03-25-2020, 08:44 AM
And you know this.... how? Dude, the accountants have micrometers out. They know to the day how long they need to keep any furloughees out to break even or even make money. It is complete folly to believe that any cuts we voluntarily take will make a difference. Once the furloughs start, there is a timeline set. Anything we try to do to bring them back before the calculated time is gravy to the company.
Youíre right, we arenít in fundamental disagreement. What Iím trying to say is that ALV reductions are better than rate cuts, and neither should be given in exchange for future payments or to forestall furloughs. If anything is given, it is in exchange for something right now. And right now that is nothing.

Furloughing also has costs to the company, so if they do, they are either playing the most high stakes brinksmanship ever, or weíre in a place where the long term outlook has become grim indeed.

If you missed it, I was being sarcastic when I said ďthis time is differentĒ. Thatís what the grinning smiley face was supposed to convey. I guess I need to take some emoji classes.

JamesBond
03-25-2020, 09:15 AM
Youíre right, we arenít in fundamental disagreement. What Iím trying to say is that ALV reductions are better than rate cuts, and neither should be given in exchange for future payments or to forestall furloughs. If anything is given, it is in exchange for something right now. And right now that is nothing.

Furloughing also has costs to the company, so if they do, they are either playing the most high stakes brinksmanship ever, or weíre in a place where the long term outlook has become grim indeed.

If you missed it, I was being sarcastic when I said ďthis time is differentĒ. Thatís what the grinning smiley face was supposed to convey. I guess I need to take some emoji classes.
Frankly, I think the company is in high warble because they know this is going to be short lived. They want us to panic and give something to forestall something they know ain't gonna happen anyway. I think OUR response should be "What are you willing to pay for that"?

And actually, I thought you were being sarcastic.. just wasn't sure. Glad we are on the same page.

Herkflyr
03-25-2020, 10:28 AM
How do they "know" this is going to be short lived? If you do I'll take some of your mojo to the craps table, assuming you could find a casino that's open.

I hope it is. Tornadoes are notoriously "short lived." They can still wreak vast destruction that takes awhile to recover from.

mikea72580
03-25-2020, 10:35 AM
My new go to excuse is "things change" replacing "it's a leap year" :D

HAHA. Yup.

JamesBond
03-25-2020, 10:44 AM
How do they "know" this is going to be short lived? If you do I'll take some of your mojo to the craps table, assuming you could find a casino that's open.

I hope it is. Tornadoes are notoriously "short lived." They can still wreak vast destruction that takes awhile to recover from.
Just a hunch. I think there is some opportunism going on here.

Buck Rogers
03-25-2020, 10:53 AM
The SIL's might have saved 25 Million$$ per month....chump change in this environment. Do (you or anybody) know if the MEC SIL offer was a clean "bill" or did it come with a lot of "attachments".




Anybody? ?

Herkflyr
03-25-2020, 11:09 AM
Anybody? ?What exactly were you asking re a "clean bill?" As someone nicely put it on FB (never thought I'd say that) the company came to us, we quickly reached a deal that they asked for, then they quickly reneged. Not sure how this MEC (which I've roundly criticized before) has done anything wrong.

mikea72580
03-25-2020, 11:10 AM
Anybody? ?


The text of the LOA was clean. Canít image any secret ďridersĒ attached to it.

Abouttime2fish
03-25-2020, 11:33 AM
The text of the LOA was clean. Canít image any secret ďridersĒ attached to it.

company just doesnít want to follow it. Anyone press to test the sick portion? Sounds like you need US surgeon general to certify you have Covid-19. Think you might and call in out of abundance of caution? Bye bye sick bank. Once we all get sick that will shut things down. Except us Maddog drivers. We have immunity to everything. Not that there will be any mad dogs left to fly!

Buck Rogers
03-25-2020, 11:36 AM
Thanks. That's all I was looking for. Didn't read the LOA in depth, cause we weren't gonna get to vote on it.

But, I have seen ALL MEC's put out only part of the story at one point or another, as well as mgt, when it serves their needs. Therefore, I am naturally skeptical of everything.

The mgt position certainly doesnt surprise me, nor does it pizz me off. Delta is very unique in its lack of unions. The SIL savings was gonna cost them way more in the long run than the savings in the short run. 25M a month PFFFT. I had several posts alluding to this well before they had the LOA.

The company certainly demonstrated a lack of foresight in letting it go that far, and the emotional turmoil that has been appropriated by the pilots is not to be taken lightly.

Mgt made a business decision based on optics and it will certainly cost them.

Iceberg
03-25-2020, 11:44 AM
And what does a 'union' do when a significant number of the senior guys have their retirements taken by the company?

Didn't the company take all the pilots retirements? I donít think the ďjunior at the timeĒ pilots retained their DB, but you would know better than I.

crewdawg
03-25-2020, 11:45 AM
SILs may have been "small fries," but you're either in cost savings mode, or you're not. I was formerly in the camp of willing to accept temporary cuts in line value, I'm now a hard no.

Iceberg
03-25-2020, 11:56 AM
SILs may have been "small fries," but you're either in cost savings mode, or you're not. I was formerly in the camp of willing to accept temporary cuts in line value, I'm now a hard no.

Agreed. If current cost and cash flow was that big, the future costs of FA/ACS unionization wouldnít be a consideration. The big tell now will be the .gov money with executive compensation/burn back limitations. If they donít take that, theyíve shown their hand. Itís right there waiting, let them ask for that help before burning our PWA.

deltabound
03-25-2020, 12:16 PM
company just doesnít want to follow it. Anyone press to test the sick portion? Sounds like you need US surgeon general to certify you have Covid-19. Think you might and call in out of abundance of caution? Bye bye sick bank. Once we all get sick that will shut things down. Except us Maddog drivers. We have immunity to everything. Not that there will be any mad dogs left to fly!


FWIW, my AME told me he has ZERO problems writing a note for work with the word COVID19 on it for the airline based solely on a phone conversation and a description of symptoms. Basic rationale is that 1) state health department wonít let anyone with a fever in his office and 2) youíre not even allowed to be tested unless youíre literally in the hospital.

Symptoms and a brief discussion of where youíve been is enough for a note.

ShyGuy
03-25-2020, 12:26 PM
Outsider. Someone on our own internal forum said "look at what happened to Delta." In regards to SIL. Anyone got a quick rundown as to what transpired? Last I heard there was a 55 hr line to stay at home and not fly. What's the change(s)?

Iceberg
03-25-2020, 12:30 PM
Outsider. Someone on our own internal forum said "look at what happened to Delta." In regards to SIL. Anyone got a quick rundown as to what transpired? Last I heard there was a 55 hr line to stay at home and not fly. What's the change(s)?

Negotiated 55 hr SILs, COVID sick protections, and changes to our fatigue board in exchange for rebidding April. The company used the rebid and then decided not to offer SILs. They say we should take unpaid leaves since the other employee groups did. ďThings changeĒ is their reasoning.

Abouttime2fish
03-25-2020, 12:32 PM
FWIW, my AME told me he has ZERO problems writing a note for work with the word COVID19 on it for the airline based solely on a phone conversation and a description of symptoms. Basic rationale is that 1) state health department wonít let anyone with a fever in his office and 2) youíre not even allowed to be tested unless youíre literally in the hospital.

Symptoms and a brief discussion of where youíve been is enough for a note.

good info right there, thank you.

p3flteng
03-25-2020, 12:35 PM
Outsider. Someone on our own internal forum said "look at what happened to Delta." In regards to SIL. Anyone got a quick rundown as to what transpired? Last I heard there was a 55 hr line to stay at home and not fly. What's the change(s)?

read back a couple pages..but essentially the company reneged at the last minute and cancelled them, or chose not to offer them. They want to go with the vol unpaid leaves of 30,60,90 days that the FA,s took. The anger is that we agreed to allow the company to rebid the APR scheds, and that essentially saved them 10 hours or more per pilot as the Average line value fell thru the floor. Pilots are pizzed right now.

edit..see someone beat me to the response.

Hank Kingsley
03-25-2020, 12:57 PM
We got played, plain and simple. Then they have the hutzpah/cajones to blame us for not taking unpaid leaves. Game on.

ShyGuy
03-25-2020, 02:30 PM
Oh damn. What kind of agreement was this? A LOA attached to the PWA? Or a side letter? Or.....? If it's enforceable, can it be grieved?

mikea72580
03-25-2020, 02:36 PM
Negotiated 55 hr SILs, COVID sick protections, and changes to our fatigue board in exchange for rebidding April. The company used the rebid and then decided not to offer SILs. They say we should take unpaid leaves since the other employee groups did. ďThings changeĒ is their reasoning.

The industry standard for the time being has been SILs and Early Retirements for pilots. But apparently the airline who "is most prepared for this crisis" is unable to except those draconian terms.

ERflyer
03-25-2020, 02:41 PM
The industry standard for the time being has been SILs and Early Retirements. But apparently the airline who "is most prepared for this crisis" is unable to except those draconian terms.

They said they are still looking at early retirements. But after reneging on the SIL deal I wouldnít trust them on any early retirement deal. Trust just went to zero.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-25-2020, 03:00 PM
They said they are still looking at early retirements. But after reneging on the SIL deal I wouldnít trust them on any early retirement deal. Trust just went to zero.

Flt Ops Weekly Update today stated "Early retirements is not an option for Delta at this time"

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-25-2020, 03:02 PM
I'm a 2017 hire that would most likely be furloughed.....I wrote my Reps today and said NO CONCESSIONS!

DALMD88FO
03-25-2020, 03:03 PM
Flt Ops Weekly Update today stated "Early retirements is not an option for Delta at this time"
Funny today's townhall meeting JS said that she is putting some retirement packages together to forward to EB. Maybe not pilot ones.

Turbo1
03-25-2020, 03:05 PM
I'm a 2017 hire that would most likely be furloughed.....I wrote my Reps today and said NO CONCESSIONS! good Man Charlie BrownÖ Hold the line

ERflyer
03-25-2020, 03:07 PM
Flt Ops Weekly Update today stated "Early retirements is not an option for Delta at this time"

HR just today said they were although they did not say which groups. Clearly it changes on an hourly basis.

captainchipotle
03-25-2020, 03:54 PM
I'm a 2017 hire that would most likely be furloughed.....I wrote my Reps today and said NO CONCESSIONS!

same for me. I was clear with my rep. Iíll go to the unemployment line rather than accept subpar conditions for decades that wonít get better even when the company makes billions.

Mudhendrvr
03-25-2020, 04:08 PM
The text of the LOA was clean. Canít image any secret ďridersĒ attached to it.

The only rider is that the letter specifically stated the company can offer SILs at their discretion, not that the will be required to post or award a SIL. From day 1 I thought it would be shocking if they actually offered any given the hour value of them. I understand the other arguments that UA and AA are offering them, and agree that the company needs to produce like them, but to say the company is pulling out of a deal is a a stretch for me.

from the LOA: With the signing of LOA #20-01, ALPA has agreed to reinstate LOA #2 with agreement on pay value - for the May and June bid periods only. SILs will not be offered for April due to the expedited meline for the re-bid. This will allow the Company to again offer SILs at their discretion"

GucciBoy
03-25-2020, 04:22 PM
The only rider is that the letter specifically stated the company can offer SILs at their discretion, not that the will be required to post or award a SIL. From day 1 I thought it would be shocking if they actually offered any given the hour value of them. I understand the other arguments that UA and AA are offering them, and agree that the company needs to produce like them, but to say the company is pulling out of a deal is a a stretch for me.

from the LOA: With the signing of LOA #20-01, ALPA has agreed to reinstate LOA #2 with agreement on pay value - for the May and June bid periods only. SILs will not be offered for April due to the expedited meline for the re-bid. This will allow the Company to again offer SILs at their discretion"


Shocking? So now they are going to be paying thousands of widebody pilots 72 hours to not fly instead of 55.

As far as them not offering them for May, every word of the LOA and accompanying documents from both the company and ALPA very strongly implied that they would certainly be offered. Look at what you posted: ďSILs will not be offered for April due to the expedited timeline,Ē not because they arenít a good option. Even that statement implied that they wanted to offer them in April as well but time constraints prevented them from doing so.

Are they committing a violation of the LOA? Absolutely not. But that doesnít meant that they arenít playing dirty pool.

hvydvr
03-25-2020, 04:45 PM
Flt Ops Weekly Update today stated "Early retirements is not an option for Delta at this time"

If they are considering furloughs they better be. Training was going to be screwed with retirements as it was. Training the senior guys in the way out the door makes no sense. American seems to have the best play at it but honestly, if I was a couple years out with my 401k just taking a dump, Iíd take a hard look at collecting 72 a month on reserve and making them train me.

Hank Kingsley
03-25-2020, 04:49 PM
If they are considering furloughs they better be. Training was going to be screwed with retirements as it was. Training the senior guys in the way out the door makes no sense. American seems to have the best play at it but honestly, if I was a couple years out with my 401k just taking a dump, Iíd take a hard look at collecting 72 a month on reserve and making them train me.
I want a SIL, but they want to pay me 72 hours on reserve. Destinations are CDC level 3. I'd take an early retirement in a heartbeat.

Surprise
03-25-2020, 06:15 PM
We got played, plain and simple. Then they have the hutzpah/cajones to blame us for not taking unpaid leaves. Game on.

Seems like it was only weeks ago when I observed that every Delta plane I saw was diligently taxiing on one engine. Game on indeed.

crewdawg
03-26-2020, 03:27 AM
The only rider is that the letter specifically stated the company can offer SILs at their discretion, not that the will be required to post or award a SIL. From day 1 I thought it would be shocking if they actually offered any given the hour value of them. I understand the other arguments that UA and AA are offering them, and agree that the company needs to produce like them, but to say the company is pulling out of a deal is a a stretch for me.


Not a stretch at all. They negotiated them back in for May/June. The specifically said there would be none for April and that the SILs were for May/June. They even opened up the SIL page on iCrew so you could check the box...which said, "check if you wish to be considered for an SIL for the May20 bid period." You can no longer go to the SIL bid page btw. Then they tell us they can offer them because it looks bad to the other employee groups...

Is it a big deal in the grand scheme of things, no. But after we let them rebid April to save millions, then they back out of something they said they would do, it just kills trust. You had lots of guys on here, FB, etc all agreeing that a reduction in line value be ok with them. Now, those same people are squarely in the full pay, category. I'll hand it to the company, they know how to unify this group.

To add insult to injury, they dump a bunch of jacked up open time into all the NB category's in middle of the night, just before the PCS ran. This drove the coverage black and effectively killed a bump of PCS option. Some of the trips were clearly just fodder...I saw one trip in 321 open time that had 2 legs operating legs on a 757, 1 operating leg on the 739 and DH leg on the 321.

Funk
03-26-2020, 04:06 AM
Not a stretch at all. They negotiated them back in for May/June. The specifically said there would be none for April and that the SILs were for May/June. They even opened up the SIL page on iCrew so you could check the box...which said, "check if you wish to be considered for an SIL for the May20 bid period." You can no longer go to the SIL bid page btw. Then they tell us they can offer them because it looks bad to the other employee groups...

Is it a big deal in the grand scheme of things, no. But after we let them rebid April to save millions, then they back out of something they said they would do, it just kills trust. You had lots of guys on here, FB, etc all agreeing that a reduction in line value be ok with them. Now, those same people are squarely in the full pay, category. I'll hand it to the company, they know how to unify this group.

To add insult to injury, they dump a bunch of jacked up open time into all the NB category's in middle of the night, just before the PCS ran. This drove the coverage black and effectively killed a bump of PCS option. Some of the trips were clearly just fodder...I saw one trip in 321 open time that had 2 legs operating legs on a 757, 1 operating leg on the 739 and DH leg on the 321.

If the mixed bag of aircraft listed for different legs isnít bad enough, how about the series of legs that donít connect, have times that show the second leg leaving and arriving before the first, originate in a different base, etc. They wouldíve been better off labeling them ď3 day, 16:30 credit, mixed bag of crap.Ē I would at least be curious and maybe a little adventurous to pick up a totally unknown trip just for the story value later.

FL370esq
03-26-2020, 04:11 AM
I would at least be curious and maybe a little adventurous to pick up a totally unknown trip just for the story value later.

I was thinking the exact same thing. Need material for my Amazon Audible book that I am going to write... 🙄😊

notEnuf
03-26-2020, 06:54 AM
I went from 89 hours of pay normally with a line to 72 hours of pay on reserve with an extra day due to the company. That is a 20% cut with more availability to the company. I've done my part.

Gunfighter
03-26-2020, 07:26 AM
If the mixed bag of aircraft listed for different legs isnít bad enough, how about the series of legs that donít connect, have times that show the second leg leaving and arriving before the first, originate in a different base, etc. They wouldíve been better off labeling them ď3 day, 16:30 credit, mixed bag of crap.Ē I would at least be curious and maybe a little adventurous to pick up a totally unknown trip just for the story value later.

Isn't that summer 2019 status quo on NB with the Gummed up Sodomizer.

Phins2right
03-26-2020, 07:32 AM
Isn't that summer 2019 status quo on NB with the Gummed up Sodomizer.
It seems to be his mark. Dropping a ton of garbage into open time to totally nuke coverage so folks can't drop/swap fits his M.O.

waldo135
03-26-2020, 07:54 AM
It seems to be his mark. Dropping a ton of garbage into open time to totally nuke coverage so folks can't drop/swap fits his M.O.
May have been his plan, but how many pilots picked up trips, raising their line from well below 70 to close to 80. Yes the trips may cancel. Pick up a 1 day via 23.J to cover the 4 day. More money, less work. Seems to me it may cost them a great deal of money and productivity.

Abouttime2fish
03-26-2020, 07:58 AM
May have been his plan, but how many pilots picked up trips, raising their line from well below 70 to close to 80. Yes the trips may cancel. Pick up a 1 day via 23.J to cover the 4 day. More money, less work. Seems to me it may cost them a great deal of money and productivity.

or pick up a 2 day, one leg out, short layo, one leg back. 23k with 12 hour call out, back within 4 hours of orrigunsly scheduled I think? That basically means no 23k trip.

DALMD88FO
03-26-2020, 08:15 AM
May have been his plan, but how many pilots picked up trips, raising their line from well below 70 to close to 80. Yes the trips may cancel. Pick up a 1 day via 23.J to cover the 4 day. More money, less work. Seems to me it may cost them a great deal of money and productivity.
donít think you can do that as your pickup has to be worth at least half the value of the original trip but I like your thinking

forgot to bid
03-27-2020, 04:41 AM
So ALV 55 hours means GS trigger at 55 hours, right?

/s

FL370esq
03-27-2020, 04:49 AM
So ALV 55 hours means GS trigger at 55 hours, right?

/s

Bingo. 23.U.1.a.2