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View Full Version : Corona Furlough


catmanhairy
03-24-2020, 08:02 PM
Mesa has started furlough

Does anyone have more info? How many people? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200325/84de20f574dca464d0d2824d7b5d507e.jpg


terks43
03-24-2020, 08:06 PM
Iím sorry buddy. I hope this is either short or that you land on your feet quickly. What month and year where you hired in?

WhiskeyDelta
03-24-2020, 08:07 PM
Iím sorry buddy. I hope this is either short or that you land on your feet quickly. What month and year where you hired in?

Missed the two questions below the pic. He's asking for more info and how many were furloughed. Hard to believe he'd be asking those questions here if he worked there.


BobbyLeeSwagger
03-24-2020, 08:59 PM
That really sucks guys, hoping for a quick recall for you as well.. Sheesh, what a mess this all is! We're on the Titanic playing the violins and ordering Brandy at Compass, and we are approaching the part where the lights go out and the ship splits in half and sinks. I got my furlough notice today with no recall plan. Pretty soon I'll be in a fetal position saying "I'll never let go, Jack!"

Hang in there guys!

pangolin
03-24-2020, 09:10 PM
Missed the two questions below the pic. He's asking for more info and how many were furloughed. Hard to believe he'd be asking those questions here if he worked there.

I work there. Until the monthly required furlough list is published we just donít know.

Fifi
03-24-2020, 09:16 PM
Mesa has started furlough

Does anyone have more info? How many people? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200325/84de20f574dca464d0d2824d7b5d507e.jpg
brad holt......how do I know that name.........
was he ever at ASA?

catmanhairy
03-24-2020, 09:31 PM
brad holt......how do I know that name.........

was he ever at ASA?Ex Skywest

Delsol
03-24-2020, 10:19 PM
Ex Skywest

He was not missed at XJT.

kevbo
03-24-2020, 10:56 PM
A Mesa furlough cant be all that bad.

MikeGolf
03-24-2020, 11:56 PM
Mesa has started furlough

Does anyone have more info? How many people? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200325/84de20f574dca464d0d2824d7b5d507e.jpg
whatís your global seniority number out of curiosity

catmanhairy
03-25-2020, 12:08 AM
whatís your global seniority number out of curiosityNot high enough to avoid delivering pizza [emoji22]

Pedro4President
03-25-2020, 01:56 AM
A Mesa furlough cant be all that bad.

This isnít a time for jabs or jokes. People have lost their jobs in a time where jobs are harder to come by (at least at the moment).

Good luck guys!

DocVoliday
03-25-2020, 02:25 AM
A Mesa furlough cant be all that bad.

Stay classy.

PiperPower
03-25-2020, 04:03 AM
A Mesa furlough cant be all that bad.

Tool of the century.

20sx
03-25-2020, 04:10 AM
Most likely a new hire in training. There are enough voluntary leaves of absences to not have furloughs....currently.

propellere
03-25-2020, 04:29 AM
Mesa has started furlough

Does anyone have more info? How many people? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200325/84de20f574dca464d0d2824d7b5d507e.jpg



Is this letter to a Mesa Pilot or a non pilot employee?

Quiet Storm
03-25-2020, 05:09 AM
Is this letter to a Mesa Pilot or a non pilot employee?


It's signed by the VP of Flight Operations.......

Take a guess .....

SureJetStick
03-25-2020, 05:24 AM
brad holt......how do I know that name.........
was he ever at ASA?

yeah he was at ASA, wasnít liked at all

pangolin
03-25-2020, 05:57 AM
Most likely a new hire in training. There are enough voluntary leaves of absences to not have furloughs....currently.

Whatís your source for that. I didnít see many (any) among DFW ca.

nlrfireman
03-25-2020, 06:23 AM
That was the letter sent out to new hires in training. No line pilots are getting this letter...yet.

majorpilot
03-25-2020, 06:31 AM
That really sucks guys, hoping for a quick recall for you as well.. Sheesh, what a mess this all is! We're on the Titanic playing the violins and ordering Brandy at Compass, and we are approaching the part where the lights go out and the ship splits in half and sinks. I got my furlough notice today with no recall plan. Pretty soon I'll be in a fetal position saying "I'll never let go, Jack!"

Hang in there guys!


Sorry to hear BLS.

Can they furlough even though theyíre ceasing operations? Is there a benefit to the pilot group or is this some scheme by corporate to avoid ďplant closureĒ laws or the like?

Hope youíre on a Bus soon and this is all
behind us.

coodrough568
03-25-2020, 06:48 AM
Was this furlough only sent to new hires? Or has it been given to active line pilots? I'm really sorry to hear this guys, I'm still hoping this doesn't last as long as we think it will. Keep your heads up, we are all in this together.

pangolin
03-25-2020, 07:31 AM
Was this furlough only sent to new hires? Or has it been given to active line pilots? I'm really sorry to hear this guys, I'm still hoping this doesn't last as long as we think it will. Keep your heads up, we are all in this together.

It was only new hires in training. I do not mean to minimize the impact. Just saying no line pilots yet but with the UA reduction Iím not sure how we avoid it.

backtoregionals
03-25-2020, 07:34 AM
A Mesa furlough cant be all that bad.


WTF is wrong with you?!! F*ing troll. People are without a paycheck.

20sx
03-25-2020, 09:20 AM
Whatís your source for that. I didnít see many (any) among DFW ca.

Wait for it. It's coming. All is well enough for the time being

Snapper86
03-25-2020, 09:25 AM
This furlough notice was only sent to the pilots going through initial training. It has not hit any line pilots as of now. Mesa is a great place to work, I love it here and I hope that we, as well as all the other regionals stay afloat during these crazy times. To the many friends I know going through training that received the furlough notice, stick in there, and everyone stay optimistic!

Machpilot
03-25-2020, 10:22 AM
I had a class date for next month. I did not get a cancelation or a copy of this email. I assume the class date is no longer valid? Nothing from my recruiter either?

rickair7777
03-25-2020, 10:54 AM
I had a class date for next month. I did not get a cancelation or a copy of this email. I assume the class date is no longer valid? Nothing from my recruiter either?


Assume all pax airline classes are cancelled. Many cargo ops are still hiring, I'd apply there before thousands of experienced pilots hit the pavement.

coodrough568
03-25-2020, 11:03 AM
Assume all pax airline classes are cancelled. Many cargo ops are still hiring, I'd apply there before thousands of experienced pilots hit the pavement.


the stimulus passed, but an exception is that companies receiving money canít furlough. How does this play out since Mesa technically furloughed last night. They donít receive any money, but United does and United pays Mesa, so all is well?

Machpilot
03-25-2020, 11:39 AM
I had a class date for next month. I did not get a cancelation or a copy of this email. I assume the class date is no longer valid? Nothing from my recruiter either?

Shortly after I posted this I got a call from Mesa. They have postponed my start date but not canceled it. I should hear about something for June they said.

Snapper86
03-25-2020, 01:43 PM
the stimulus passed, but an exception is that companies receiving money canít furlough. How does this play out since Mesa technically furloughed last night. They donít receive any money, but United does and United pays Mesa, so all is well?


We just received the Memorandum of Understanding from ALPA, it is summed up as follows:

-Voluntary leave of absence is available for 1, 2 or 3 months and you keep all benefits and seniority but longevity is paused. If you take the VLOA you will receive a monthly minimum of 10 hrs pay(pretty cool deal if you have another source of income)

-New monthly minimum guarantee is 66 or 70 hours, this is dependent upon the percentage of schedule reductions from the code share partners for the months of April, May and June.

-And now for the best part, the NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE!! In exchange for the above, the company (Mesa) will not furlough anyone while the reduced monthly minimums are in affect. And the answer to your above question, this clause excludes current FOís in initial training status as of March 20, 2020

This letter of agreement between the Pilots, represented by ALPA, and Mesa Airlines is valid today the 25th through the last day in June 2020


Sure is funny when people talk bad on Mesa, again, I love it here and wouldnít trade it for any other regional. Iíll take lower pay to keep my job and upgrade faster plus move on to my end goal of a major sooner.

Snapper86
03-25-2020, 01:46 PM
Shortly after I posted this I got a call from Mesa. They have postponed my start date but not canceled it. I should hear about something for June they said.


Stick in there, it will be worth your while. Youíll upgrade sooner at Mesa waiting it out a few months to start training than letís say a buddy of yours who gets on with someone who starts their training next month. Mesa is the place to be, itís a good family

biigD
03-25-2020, 01:48 PM
I'm all for some good news in these times, but:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.majorgeeks.com%2Fnews%2Ffile%2 F9234_kool-aid-man.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

rld1k
03-25-2020, 01:57 PM
We just received the Memorandum of Understanding from ALPA, it is summed up as follows:

-Voluntary leave of absence is available for 1, 2 or 3 months and you keep all benefits and seniority but longevity is paused. If you take the VLOA you will receive a monthly minimum of 10 hrs pay(pretty cool deal if you have another source of income)

-New monthly minimum guarantee is 66 or 70 hours, this is dependent upon the percentage of schedule reductions from the code share partners for the months of April, May and June.

-And now for the best part, the NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE!! In exchange for the above, the company (Mesa) will not furlough anyone while the reduced monthly minimums are in affect. And the answer to your above question, this clause excludes current FOís in initial training status as of March 20, 2020

This letter of agreement between the Pilots, represented by ALPA, and Mesa Airlines is valid today the 25th through the last day in June 2020


Sure is funny when people talk bad on Mesa, again, I love it here and wouldnít trade it for any other regional. Iíll take lower pay to keep my job and upgrade faster plus move on to my end goal of a major sooner.

You realize they can't furlough anyway if they take grant money

Snapper86
03-25-2020, 02:02 PM
You realize they can't furlough anyway if they take grant money


Who exactly is taking grants? You and I may never know who exactly sees the money from the government, let alone we donít know the fine print of the stimulus package. Iím just giving you the details of what ALPA and Mesa agreed on.

catmanhairy
03-25-2020, 02:03 PM
Who exactly is taking grants? You and I may never know who exactly sees the money from the government, let alone we donít know the fine print of the stimulus package. Iím just giving you the details of what ALPA and Mesa agreed on.Where did you find this MOU?

Snapper86
03-25-2020, 02:04 PM
Where did you find this MOU?

If youíre apart of the union and a pilot for Mesa you should have received it

dera
03-25-2020, 02:06 PM
You realize they can't furlough anyway if they take grant money

You realize the language hasn't been finished yet so nobody knows what the terms are.

pangolin
03-25-2020, 03:31 PM
Wait for it. It's coming. All is well enough for the time being

The MOU that was negotiated is good.

catmanhairy
03-25-2020, 03:34 PM
The MOU that was negotiated is good.I agree. It's a relief.

20sx
03-25-2020, 03:57 PM
The MOU that was negotiated is good.

Good. I'm hoping more people are happy with it that aren't.

NovemberBravo
03-25-2020, 05:13 PM
I was hoping for some type of sick pay guarantee if you get corona. Its more than likely if you contract this thing itíll be at work or the hotel. Itís crazy to me I have to go to work probably get sick then not get paid for an infection that happened at work. Obviously impossible to know where you caught it if you do.

coodrough568
03-25-2020, 05:48 PM
We just received the Memorandum of Understanding from ALPA, it is summed up as follows:

-Voluntary leave of absence is available for 1, 2 or 3 months and you keep all benefits and seniority but longevity is paused. If you take the VLOA you will receive a monthly minimum of 10 hrs pay(pretty cool deal if you have another source of income)

-New monthly minimum guarantee is 66 or 70 hours, this is dependent upon the percentage of schedule reductions from the code share partners for the months of April, May and June.

-And now for the best part, the NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE!! In exchange for the above, the company (Mesa) will not furlough anyone while the reduced monthly minimums are in affect. And the answer to your above question, this clause excludes current FOís in initial training status as of March 20, 2020

This letter of agreement between the Pilots, represented by ALPA, and Mesa Airlines is valid today the 25th through the last day in June 2020


Sure is funny when people talk bad on Mesa, again, I love it here and wouldnít trade it for any other regional. Iíll take lower pay to keep my job and upgrade faster plus move on to my end goal of a major sooner.


that all sounds great! Iím proud to hear Mesaís MEC is working hard for yíall. I flew there for 1.5 years, I moved on last year. But I loved my job at Mesa and still have many friends there. Iím pulling for all of you there. Best wishes

deltajuliet
03-25-2020, 11:11 PM
We just received the Memorandum of Understanding from ALPA, it is summed up as follows:

-Voluntary leave of absence is available for 1, 2 or 3 months and you keep all benefits and seniority but longevity is paused. If you take the VLOA you will receive a monthly minimum of 10 hrs pay(pretty cool deal if you have another source of income)

-New monthly minimum guarantee is 66 or 70 hours, this is dependent upon the percentage of schedule reductions from the code share partners for the months of April, May and June.

-And now for the best part, the NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE!! In exchange for the above, the company (Mesa) will not furlough anyone while the reduced monthly minimums are in affect. And the answer to your above question, this clause excludes current FOís in initial training status as of March 20, 2020

This letter of agreement between the Pilots, represented by ALPA, and Mesa Airlines is valid today the 25th through the last day in June 2020


Sure is funny when people talk bad on Mesa, again, I love it here and wouldnít trade it for any other regional. Iíll take lower pay to keep my job and upgrade faster plus move on to my end goal of a major sooner.

Thatís the whipsaw attitude everybody has been trying to correct for years, since the days of Pay to Play and long before. Other airlines are also getting 50-55 hours of pay per month of LOA.

boeingdvr
03-26-2020, 03:26 AM
I agree. It's a relief.

MOU expires. After the deadline, then Mesa will furlough and declare BK. JO will do whtver means to save his baby.


The majors wonít be hiring for years to come. This has changed the way the airlines will operate for a long long time. Many will come back much much smaller.

Cujo665
03-26-2020, 04:14 AM
I had a class date for next month. I did not get a cancelation or a copy of this email. I assume the class date is no longer valid? Nothing from my recruiter either?

you have to already be on property to get the letter.

Cujo665
03-26-2020, 04:17 AM
Who exactly is taking grants? You and I may never know who exactly sees the money from the government, let alone we donít know the fine print of the stimulus package. Iím just giving you the details of what ALPA and Mesa agreed on.

ALPA E&FA gets the data directly from the federal government....

Snapper86
03-26-2020, 06:13 AM
MOU expires. After the deadline, then Mesa will furlough and declare BK. JO will do whtver means to save his baby.


The majors wonít be hiring for years to come. This has changed the way the airlines will operate for a long long time. Many will come back much much smaller.

You're a great role model and an extremely optimistic person about all this🤣

propellere
03-26-2020, 06:43 AM
MOU just released is a good short term fix to a short term problem. Hope flying picks up in the next 90 days!

flynd94
03-26-2020, 11:50 AM
You realize they can't furlough anyway if they take grant money


Yes they can. The language states no layoffs through 9/30/2020

boeingdvr
03-26-2020, 01:20 PM
Yes they can. The language states no layoffs through 9/30/2020

Airlines will furlough. They donít care...

flynd94
03-26-2020, 01:37 PM
Airlines will furlough. They donít care...
Yes they will but there are stipulations in the stimulus bill that require certain things. I fully expect to be on the street a second time on 10/1/2020

mjpilot
03-26-2020, 02:19 PM
We just received the Memorandum of Understanding from ALPA, it is summed up as follows:

-Voluntary leave of absence is available for 1, 2 or 3 months and you keep all benefits and seniority but longevity is paused. If you take the VLOA you will receive a monthly minimum of 10 hrs pay(pretty cool deal if you have another source of income)

-New monthly minimum guarantee is 66 or 70 hours, this is dependent upon the percentage of schedule reductions from the code share partners for the months of April, May and June.


VLO with 10 hours pay? Really?!?
Who comes up with this $hit?

Monthly guarantee of 66 to 70 hours? Our contract clearly states 76 hours!!!

Is that all you've got?

​​​​​Why do we even have such a useless weak Union?

av02
03-26-2020, 02:23 PM
VLO with 10 hours pay? Really?!?
Who comes up with this $hit?

Monthly guarantee of 66 to 70 hours? Our contract clearly states 76 hours!!!

Is that all you've got?

​​​​​Why do we even have such a useless weak Union?
+ Anyone who's going to work because their work is considered to be essential should receive a hazard pay!!!:mad:

Uffda
03-26-2020, 03:55 PM
The MOU that was negotiated is good.


Looks like crap to me. One of the weakest part of our contract is reserve. Where is the relief for those on reserve? We have always had the worst reserve rules. Relaxing reserve rules would be a no brainer for negotiators when negotiating a MOU reduction of min gar. We are going to be so fat on reserves it would be a rational concession for the company, but where is it?

terks43
03-26-2020, 04:03 PM
Looks like crap to me. One of the weakest part of our contract is reserve. Where is the relief for those on reserve? We have always had the worst reserve rules. Relaxing reserve rules would be a no brainer for negotiators when negotiating a MOU reduction of min gar. We are going to be so fat on reserves it would be a rational concession for the company, but where is it?

What exactly makes our reserve rules the ďworstĒ? Be specific.

daOldMan
03-26-2020, 04:05 PM
+ Anyone who's going to work because their work is considered to be essential should receive a hazard pay!!!:mad:

You get paid at the rate that you do every day because you are essential. If you want hazard pay for when things are actually hazardous, then you would get pay cuts when things are not.

Snapper86
03-26-2020, 04:10 PM
Looks like crap to me. One of the weakest part of our contract is reserve. Where is the relief for those on reserve? We have always had the worst reserve rules. Relaxing reserve rules would be a no brainer for negotiators when negotiating a MOU reduction of min gar. We are going to be so fat on reserves it would be a rational concession for the company, but where is it?

Im sorry to say this, but you must have never worked hard in your life, or had a job that really sucks and requires a lot of energy and brain power. If you arenít happy here as an airline pilot working a dream job of millions of people then thatís just sad honestly. Be grateful that you have a job, be grateful that you make a living and people look up to you. I have worked some of the hardest labor jobs, this is nothing to complain about.

av02
03-26-2020, 04:12 PM
You get paid at the rate that you do every day because you are essential. If you want hazard pay for when things are actually hazardous, then you would get pay cuts when things are not.
The same mentality that led RJ pilots to be so fxxxxxg under pay for the last 30 years!

Uffda
03-26-2020, 04:16 PM
What exactly makes our reserve rules the ďworstĒ? Be specific.


You are either a troll or a naive new hire, but if you want me to be specific ďtrollĒ

terks43
03-26-2020, 04:31 PM
You are either a troll or a naive new hire, but if you want me to be specific ďtrollĒ

Still waiting.

kevin18
03-26-2020, 04:48 PM
The same mentality that led RJ pilots to be so fxxxxxg under pay for the last 30 years!

Until last year with raises at other regionals Mesaís pay seemed competitive. It wasnít leading, but it was in the same area. Weíre still on the same contract, and JO wouldnít have increased the pay just because he likes our smiles.

the RJ rates as they are around the other regionals on new pay rates are reasonable when compared to a mainline jet wrt capacity the jets. Does there need to be an increase in pay come next contract? Absolutely. Is the RJ pay ridiculously low? Not when you compare capacity. Just my opinion.

Also, the reserve rules likely wonít change because the senior guys look like it as working your way up. The MEC wonít spend capital on improving reserve rules. So donít get ****ed off at them when all of a sudden **** goes south and more people are on reserve.

Cessna182TypeR
03-26-2020, 04:59 PM
Stick in there, it will be worth your while. Youíll upgrade sooner at Mesa waiting it out a few months to start training than letís say a buddy of yours who gets on with someone who starts their training next month. Mesa is the place to be, itís a good family

Recruiter Account^^^

backtoregionals
03-26-2020, 05:00 PM
You're a great role model and an extremely optimistic person about all this🤣

Does he even work here?

pangolin
03-26-2020, 08:14 PM
VLO with 10 hours pay? Really?!?
Who comes up with this $hit?

Monthly guarantee of 66 to 70 hours? Our contract clearly states 76 hours!!!

Is that all you've got?

​​​​​Why do we even have such a useless weak Union?

10 hours pays your benefits. They still keep contributing their portion. If you donít like it donít take it.

As far as reduced lines go - itís way better than zero and if you donít think thatís where we are headed you need to get your head out of the sand. This deal is awesome, quite fair and based on partner flying reduction. Flying not reduced? It doesnít go down. You can make more than min. Seriously since you started when have you ever only credited min?

pangolin
03-26-2020, 08:17 PM
Looks like crap to me. One of the weakest part of our contract is reserve. Where is the relief for those on reserve? We have always had the worst reserve rules. Relaxing reserve rules would be a no brainer for negotiators when negotiating a MOU reduction of min gar. We are going to be so fat on reserves it would be a rational concession for the company, but where is it?

Be specific. We do not have the worst reserve rules. What area to improve?

mjpilot
03-26-2020, 08:39 PM
10 hours pays your benefits. They still keep contributing their portion. If you donít like it donít take it.

As far as reduced lines go - itís way better than zero and if you donít think thatís where we are headed you need to get your head out of the sand. This deal is awesome, quite fair and based on partner flying reduction. Flying not reduced? It doesnít go down. You can make more than min. Seriously since you started when have you ever only credited min?

What are you smoking?!?

No wonder Mesa is and keeps @ the bottom with wisdom such as yours.

MoarAlpha
03-26-2020, 08:39 PM
We just received the Memorandum of Understanding from ALPA, it is summed up as follows:

-Voluntary leave of absence is available for 1, 2 or 3 months and you keep all benefits and seniority but longevity is paused. If you take the VLOA you will receive a monthly minimum of 10 hrs pay(pretty cool deal if you have another source of income)

-New monthly minimum guarantee is 66 or 70 hours, this is dependent upon the percentage of schedule reductions from the code share partners for the months of April, May and June.

-And now for the best part, the NO FURLOUGH CLAUSE!! In exchange for the above, the company (Mesa) will not furlough anyone while the reduced monthly minimums are in affect. And the answer to your above question, this clause excludes current FOís in initial training status as of March 20, 2020

This letter of agreement between the Pilots, represented by ALPA, and Mesa Airlines is valid today the 25th through the last day in June 2020


Sure is funny when people talk bad on Mesa, again, I love it here and wouldnít trade it for any other regional. Iíll take lower pay to keep my job and upgrade faster plus move on to my end goal of a major sooner.

So what stops the Company from just lifting the reduced guarantee then furloughing?

pangolin
03-26-2020, 09:08 PM
What are you smoking?!?

No wonder Mesa is and keeps @ the bottom with wisdom such as yours.

Its called pragmatism.

pangolin
03-26-2020, 09:11 PM
So what stops the Company from just lifting the reduced guarantee then furloughing?

They could furlough tomorrow and not break the agreement. It says no furlough while the windows are decreased. They are not decreased now. So nothing. But I doubt many are grasping the reality of the situation. Maybe itís the businessman in me but I think the deal is fair all around within the framework that it exists.

Snapper86
03-26-2020, 09:13 PM
Recruiter Account^^^

oh geez🤦🏼‍♂️ some of you guys really just hate life, no one can help you change that but yourself. I hope for the best for all of you that have nothing but outrage towards your job. Iíve worked in several different companies throughout my career and see both side, the people who hate it and the people who just love being there. So funny how being polite and protecting my ďhomeĒ makes me a recruiter😂 this is your job, this is your company, take pride in it and if you donít like it then leave, Iím sure, I am 100000% sure it ainít greener on the other side and youíll be just as upset and outraged as you are here cause you donít look at the little things and appreciate them. And this goes for all you guys raging on this forum, not just you Cessna182 guy

Snapper86
03-26-2020, 09:16 PM
Its called pragmatism.

well put! probably to big of a word for him/her to understand though, but bravo 👏

av02
03-27-2020, 04:19 AM
10 hours pays your benefits. They still keep contributing their portion. If you donít like it donít take it.

As far as reduced lines go - itís way better than zero and if you donít think thatís where we are headed you need to get your head out of the sand. This deal is awesome, quite fair and based on partner flying reduction. Flying not reduced? It doesnít go down. You can make more than min. Seriously since you started when have you ever only credited min?
how much is mesa getting out of the 60 billion bailout??? wasn't for the airlines to keep same salaries (Monthly guarantee) until sep??

pangolin
03-27-2020, 05:58 AM
how much is mesa getting out of the 60 billion bailout??? wasn't for the airlines to keep same salaries (Monthly guarantee) until sep??

Itís premature to even guess. Iím not sure regionals get a dime. The stimulus hasnít even passed. You can check the 10 Q to see when it gets filed.

rld1k
03-27-2020, 06:30 AM
Itís premature to even guess. Iím not sure regionals get a dime. The stimulus hasnít even passed. You can check the 10 Q to see when it gets filed.

Then why would you take concessions before even knowing what's protected in the bill that's about to pass?

terks43
03-27-2020, 07:04 AM
Then why would you take concessions before even knowing what's protected in the bill that's about to pass?

See Commutair.

br1903
03-27-2020, 08:00 AM
oh geez🤦🏼‍♂️ some of you guys really just hate life, no one can help you change that but yourself. I hope for the best for all of you that have nothing but outrage towards your job. Iíve worked in several different companies throughout my career and see both side, the people who hate it and the people who just love being there. So funny how being polite and protecting my ďhomeĒ makes me a recruiter😂 this is your job, this is your company, take pride in it and if you donít like it then leave, Iím sure, I am 100000% sure it ainít greener on the other side and youíll be just as upset and outraged as you are here cause you donít look at the little things and appreciate them. And this goes for all you guys raging on this forum, not just you Cessna182 guy

Your pride and joy just cut my pay and left me in a horrible situation. You must be so proud of them.

av02
03-27-2020, 08:13 AM
See Commutair.
see Republic. 50hrs paid leave.

dead meat
03-27-2020, 09:13 AM
see Republic. 50hrs paid leave.
Republic and CommutAir are completely different situations. In April, CommutAir is losing 75% of their flying, Republic is losing about 25% of their total flying for AA, DL, and UA. CommutAir could've weathered the storm with only a 25% loss, not so with 75%.

mjpilot
03-27-2020, 12:11 PM
Just counted Reserves on final award, IAH base:


125 first officers
90 captains

Couple of names with blank spaces, guessing to be the voluntary LOAs.

mjpilot
03-27-2020, 12:17 PM
how much is mesa getting out of the 60 billion bailout??? wasn't for the airlines to keep same salaries (Monthly guarantee) until sep??


My understanding of this is our main line contracts: we get paid for whatever flights/pairings are given to us.

There must be a min. guarantee of hours given to us, if the flying is reduced beyond a certain threshold.

If that is true, Mesa will get paid indirectly by that bailout amount.

mjpilot
03-27-2020, 12:20 PM
its called pragmatism.

:d
​​​​​​

mjpilot
03-27-2020, 12:28 PM
well put! probably to big of a word for him/her to understand though, but bravo 👏

Oh, yeah? That's how low you go? More intelligence coming our way!

Look at what Delta or United came up with. I believe the pilot group had to vote for that outcome.

They go high, we go low, right? We're just regional pilots, that are working the same system as any other airline pilot, yet we get less than half of pay and benefits of our airline partners?

10 hours pay vs 55? That is WAY less of 50% that we normally get paid, isn't it?

You seem to be so smart, do the math.

mjpilot
03-27-2020, 12:32 PM
..........

mjpilot
03-27-2020, 12:33 PM
see Republic. 50hrs paid leave.

50 hours vs. our 10 hours?

It's called Pragmatism! I call it Stupidity!!!

mjpilot
03-27-2020, 12:56 PM
Just counted Reserves on final award, IAH base:


125 first officers
90 captains

Couple of names with blank spaces, guessing to be the voluntary LOAs.

Quoting my own quote? LOL

If my reserve count is accurate, then 200 excess reserves on a LOA getting paid 50 to 55 hours short term is still cheaper than 200 @ 76 min guarantee.

Cheaper is better, right? Ask JO.

3rd option would be 200 Furloughs, just on the Ejet side.

Just pragmatising.

Snapper86
03-27-2020, 12:58 PM
Oh, yeah? That's how low you go? More intelligence coming our way!

Look at what Delta or United came up with. I believe the pilot group had to vote for that outcome.

They go high, we go low, right? We're just regional pilots, that are working the same system as any other airline pilot, yet we get less than half of pay and benefits of our airline partners?

10 hours pay vs 55? That is WAY less of 50% that we normally get paid, isn't it?

You seem to be so smart, do the math.


You are trying to compare a regional airline to a legacy carrier, now again, if you donít like where you work than leave, no one is keeping you here. Mesa is a STEPPING STONE to the legacy carriers, no one comes to Mesa in hopes to stay here. The people who have been stuck here are cause they either like it or circumstance didnít align for them to move on. Just like with any job in the world, you start at the bottom of the pyramid getting paid the worst, with no vacation, and other things that make QOL suck, and as you move up in the world, life gets easier, benefits get better and pay goes up. Quit complaining, youíre what I call a dead roach in the system who can only complain.

Melit
03-27-2020, 02:28 PM
My understanding of this is our main line contracts: we get paid for whatever flights/pairings are given to us.

There must be a min. guarantee of hours given to us, if the flying is reduced beyond a certain threshold.

If that is true, Mesa will get paid indirectly by that bailout amount.
I donít believe so. The Main line bail out isnít tied to contractors.

br1903
03-27-2020, 02:45 PM
[QUOTE=Jleep75;3013384]oh geez🤦🏼‍♂️ some of you guys really just hate life, no one can help you change that but yourself. I hope for the best for all of you that have nothing but outrage towards your job. Iíve worked in several different companies throughout my career and see both side, the people who hate it and the people who just love being there. So funny how being polite and protecting my ďhomeĒ makes me a recruiter😂 this is your job, this is your company, take pride in it and if you donít like it then leave, Iím sure, I am 100000% sure it ainít greener on the other side and youíll be just as upset and outraged as you are here cause you donít look at the little things and appreciate them.

Your pride and joy just cut my pay and put me and my family in a horrible situation. Let that sink in before you give them too many pats on the back.

fastneat
03-27-2020, 02:58 PM
my two cents.. If I were mainline United, I would take that bailout money and pay mainline pilots and FAs to stay home. Not all of them, but as many as necessary. Pay them their minimums. Furlough no one.

THEN, I would take those mostly empty 737s, Airbuses, etc, and replace them with mostly full 175s and CRJs. Turn those big losses into small losses, and maybe even small profits, but better than empty big airplanes.

THEN, I would look at the landscape amongst the Regional partners and ask, ďwho is best for our business?ĒMesa performs extremely well amongst our Regionals, AND they cost the least. Revenues minus expenses equals profits. Mesa equals profits.

Mesa needs to keep flying.

Melit
03-27-2020, 03:20 PM
my two cents.. If I were mainline United, I would take that bailout money and pay mainline pilots and FAs to stay home. Not all of them, but as many as necessary. Pay them their minimums. Furlough no one.

THEN, I would take those mostly empty 737s, Airbuses, etc, and replace them with mostly full 175s and CRJs. Turn those big losses into small losses, and maybe even small profits, but better than empty big airplanes.

THEN, I would look at the landscape amongst the Regional partners and ask, ďwho is best for our business?ĒMesa performs extremely well amongst our Regionals, AND they cost the least. Revenues minus expenses equals profits. Mesa equals profits.

Mesa needs to keep flying.
Big changes are coming! How do you know Mesa cost the least? From reading it here?

20sx
03-27-2020, 03:49 PM
my two cents.. If I were mainline United, I would take that bailout money and pay mainline pilots and FAs to stay home. Not all of them, but as many as necessary. Pay them their minimums. Furlough no one.

THEN, I would take those mostly empty 737s, Airbuses, etc, and replace them with mostly full 175s and CRJs. Turn those big losses into small losses, and maybe even small profits, but better than empty big airplanes.

THEN, I would look at the landscape amongst the Regional partners and ask, ďwho is best for our business?ĒMesa performs extremely well amongst our Regionals, AND they cost the least. Revenues minus expenses equals profits. Mesa equals profits.

Mesa needs to keep flying.

This happened before. The pilots at the majors aren't just going to let their flying get farmed out too much. It is an extraordinary terrible time, but I don't believe any regional should or will get a lot more flying during these times.

flynd94
03-27-2020, 03:55 PM
my two cents.. If I were mainline United, I would take that bailout money and pay mainline pilots and FAs to stay home. Not all of them, but as many as necessary. Pay them their minimums. Furlough no one.

THEN, I would take those mostly empty 737s, Airbuses, etc, and replace them with mostly full 175s and CRJs. Turn those big losses into small losses, and maybe even small profits, but better than empty big airplanes.

THEN, I would look at the landscape amongst the Regional partners and ask, ďwho is best for our business?ĒMesa performs extremely well amongst our Regionals, AND they cost the least. Revenues minus expenses equals profits. Mesa equals profits.

Mesa needs to keep flying.

Fortunately we have protections in our scope clause to prevent this scenario. Now you all will say YA mgmt will use the ďact of GodĒ clause. They tried post 9/11 and lost. Plus they donít wonít their work groups to turn against them

fastneat
03-27-2020, 04:02 PM
This happened before. The pilots at the majors aren't just going to let their flying get farmed out too much. It is an extraordinary terrible time, but I don't believe any regional should or will get a lot more flying during these times.

This HAS happened before. The bubonic plague. The Black Plague.. The Spanish flu.. and youíre right! The Majors did not, in fact, give up their flying. In this case, however, all contractual obligations to the Union are under an emergency situation. Therefore, the company has to do whatever it needs to do to survive in the short term, so that the pilots at United have a plane to fly in the long term.

Melit
03-27-2020, 04:10 PM
This happened before. The pilots at the majors aren't just going to let their flying get farmed out too much. It is an extraordinary terrible time, but I don't believe any regional should or will get a lot more flying during these times.
But some will..

Melit
03-27-2020, 05:09 PM
my two cents.. If I were mainline United, I would take that bailout money and pay mainline pilots and FAs to stay home. Not all of them, but as many as necessary. Pay them their minimums. Furlough no one.

THEN, I would take those mostly empty 737s, Airbuses, etc, and replace them with mostly full 175s and CRJs. Turn those big losses into small losses, and maybe even small profits, but better than empty big airplanes.

THEN, I would look at the landscape amongst the Regional partners and ask, ďwho is best for our business?ĒMesa performs extremely well amongst our Regionals, AND they cost the least. Revenues minus expenses equals profits. Mesa equals profits.

Mesa needs to keep flying.
You are going to be shocked what happens

domino
03-27-2020, 05:26 PM
You are going to be shocked what happens

I think you will also. Iím at Skywest and completely expect them to furlough up to 40% at a minimum with the crash coming at AA, DL, UA and AS.

itsmytime
03-27-2020, 06:29 PM
I think you will also. Iím at Skywest and completely expect them to furlough up to 40% at a minimum with the crash coming at AA, DL, UA and AS.


skywest doesnít furlough.

jetlag q
03-27-2020, 06:40 PM
skywest doesnít furlough.


spoken so definitively, what will Skywest do?

deltajuliet
03-28-2020, 12:20 AM
oh geez🤦🏼‍♂️ some of you guys really just hate life, no one can help you change that but yourself. I hope for the best for all of you that have nothing but outrage towards your job. Iíve worked in several different companies throughout my career and see both side, the people who hate it and the people who just love being there. So funny how being polite and protecting my ďhomeĒ makes me a recruiter😂 this is your job, this is your company, take pride in it and if you donít like it then leave, Iím sure, I am 100000% sure it ainít greener on the other side and youíll be just as upset and outraged as you are here cause you donít look at the little things and appreciate them. And this goes for all you guys raging on this forum, not just you Cessna182 guy

Bro, you joined APC three days ago and youíre coming on this strong. Who are you even?

10 hours pay vs 55? That is WAY less of 50% that we normally get paid, isn't it?

Thatís exactly right. Delta 2-year 737 FO at $141 an hour, 55 hours a month, earns $7,755. A 2-year Mesa FO, at $38 an hour and 10 hours a month, earns $380. Thatís just a 2041% difference, no biggy.

Getting less than 1/20th of what another professional aviator gets goes well beyond the typical regional vs. mainline comparison. Anyone who supports it deserves what they get, except theyíre dragging down the Mesa people trying to better the company and the industry at large.

Sniper66
03-28-2020, 03:59 AM
Bro, you joined APC three days ago and you’re coming on this strong. Who are you even?



That’s exactly right. Delta 2-year 737 FO at $141 an hour, 55 hours a month, earns $7,755. A 2-year Mesa FO, at $38 an hour and 10 hours a month, earns $380. That’s just a 2041% difference, no biggy.

Getting less than 1/20th of what another professional aviator gets goes well beyond the typical regional vs. mainline comparison. Anyone who supports it deserves what they get, except they’re dragging down the Mesa people trying to better the company and the industry at large.



watch closely your MEC Chair.
only one MEC Chairman of yours had the balls to tell your management go pound sand and the last person turn the lights off when they asked last time for pay cuts

only one to my knowledge

StuckOnReserve
03-28-2020, 05:19 AM
This HAS happened before. The bubonic plague. The Black Plague.. The Spanish flu.. and youíre right! The Majors did not, in fact, give up their flying.

Umm....

There was no airline industry during the Bubonic Plague which was the exact same event as the Black Plague. That took place in the 1300ís, and powered flight had only been around for 15 years when the Spanish Flue Pandemic occurred.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

kevin18
03-28-2020, 07:12 AM
Umm....

There was no airline industry during the Bubonic Plague which was the exact same event as the Black Plague. That took place in the 1300ís, and powered flight had only been around for 15 years when the Spanish Flue Pandemic occurred.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

could be wrong, pretty sure that was all sarcasm. . .

StuckOnReserve
03-28-2020, 07:36 AM
could be wrong, pretty sure that was all sarcasm. . .

You would hope, But in his complete post he's suggesting that UAL should use the emergency declaration to violate UAL scope restrictions, A move that would provide UAL some short term cost savings, but long term ramifications. That to me indicated he wasn't thinking through situation.

By Scope 80% of all UAX flying has to be within 900NM. I doubt any UAX regional will see anything different.

fastneat
03-28-2020, 07:52 AM
Umm....

There was no airline industry during the Bubonic Plague which was the exact same event as the Black Plague. That took place in the 1300ís, and powered flight had only been around for 15 years when the Spanish Flue Pandemic occurred.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


seriously?? whereís your sarcasm meter, bro? arenít you a pilot? (see! that question right there is an example of sarcasm..)

read my whole response again so that you can get my point. if not, let me know and iíll be happy to spell it out for you.

itsmytime
03-28-2020, 07:55 AM
spoken so definitively, what will Skywest do?

anything but furlough.

fastneat
03-28-2020, 07:55 AM
You would hope, But in his complete post he's suggesting that UAL should use the emergency declaration to violate UAL scope restrictions, A move that would provide UAL some short term cost savings, but long term ramifications. That to me indicated he wasn't thinking through situation.

By Scope 80% of all UAX flying has to be within 900NM. I doubt any UAX regional will see anything different.


Scope Clause goes away in an emergency, folks. thatís all iím saying. and if it does, Mesa pilots would be the beneficiaries.

fastneat
03-28-2020, 08:04 AM
Scope Clause goes away in an emergency, folks. thatís all iím saying. and if it does, Mesa pilots would be the beneficiaries.


And for those of you who think iím pulling stuff out my arshe.. iíve been analyzing airlines since the late 80s. when America West and Ed Beauvias were going down the tubes, I did a case study on them and exactly one month before they actually declared bankruptcy, my group recommended that, guess what? That they declare bunkruptcy... Four years later when he started WestPac, he was doing great in the beginning, but then he started making the SAME mistakes he did at America West. I was screaming, no! No you idiot! Six months later the airline was no more.

Iím not saying iím an expert at the airline business, but I am saying Iíve probably been looking at it for longer than those of you who think iím pulling things out of my keester.

cary on..

pangolin
03-28-2020, 08:24 AM
Oh, yeah? That's how low you go? More intelligence coming our way!

Look at what Delta or United came up with. I believe the pilot group had to vote for that outcome.

They go high, we go low, right? We're just regional pilots, that are working the same system as any other airline pilot, yet we get less than half of pay and benefits of our airline partners?

10 hours pay vs 55? That is WAY less of 50% that we normally get paid, isn't it?

You seem to be so smart, do the math.

Look man you are all
torqed about something that hasnít even happened yet. What other airline is getting 76 hours min credit for April?

flynd94
03-28-2020, 08:31 AM
Scope Clause goes away in an emergency, folks. thatís all iím saying. and if it does, Mesa pilots would be the beneficiaries.


UA mgmt tried that post 9/11 and lost. Our scope clause will stay intact/enforced. Also if UA was dumb enough to try this tactic they would have 13000 ****ed off pilots. Research the ďSummer of LoveĒ at UA.

fastneat
03-28-2020, 09:14 AM
UA mgmt tried that post 9/11 and lost. Our scope clause will stay intact/enforced. Also if UA was dumb enough to try this tactic they would have 13000 ****ed off pilots. Research the ďSummer of LoveĒ at UA.


back to my sarcastic post, earlier. this is NOT 9/11.

pangolin
03-28-2020, 10:03 AM
And for those of you who think iím pulling stuff out my arshe.. iíve been analyzing airlines since the late 80s. when America West and Ed Beauvias were going down the tubes, I did a case study on them and exactly one month before they actually declared bankruptcy, my group recommended that, guess what? That they declare bunkruptcy... Four years later when he started WestPac, he was doing great in the beginning, but then he started making the SAME mistakes he did at America West. I was screaming, no! No you idiot! Six months later the airline was no more.

Iím not saying iím an expert at the airline business, but I am saying Iíve probably been looking at it for longer than those of you who think iím pulling things out of my keester.

cary on..

On the flip side since scope doesnít matter and contracts too BOTH AA and UA own most of the 76 seat regional planes. They could suck them in house in a heartbeat. Scope, labor and expense solved.

flynd94
03-28-2020, 10:45 AM
back to my sarcastic post, earlier. this is NOT 9/11.


Correct, itís worse but itís considered settled law.

fastneat
03-28-2020, 11:02 AM
On the flip side since scope doesnít matter and contracts too BOTH AA and UA own most of the 76 seat regional planes. They could suck them in house in a heartbeat. Scope, labor and expense solved.


In house? Why would they do that? Everything, including the bailout money is designed as a short term solution. By the time they train their in-house pilots to fly Ejets and CRJs, the short term will be behind them.

fastneat
03-28-2020, 11:04 AM
Correct, itís worse but itís considered settled law.

Law. ďAct of GodĒ clause.

airspeedsalive
03-28-2020, 11:12 AM
In house? Why would they do that? Everything, including the bailout money is designed as a short term solution. By the time they train their in-house pilots to fly Ejets and CRJs, the short term will be behind them.

Except for the next genís, doesnít Mesa own most of the 900ís and a fair number of the 175ís?

fastneat
03-28-2020, 11:20 AM
Except for the next genís, doesnít Mesa own most of the 900ís and a fair number of the 175ís?

Not arguing with you, but just as an observation. Whether Mesa pilots fly their equipment or their own mainline pilots fly their planes, the cost of the airplane remains the same. Itís already paid for. The difference is the cost of the labor. Iím pretty sure Mesa labor is less expensive to UA. Weíre cheaper, AND weíre already trained.

Having said that, if this turns out to be a long term problem, then all bets are off. I would agree with you, in that case. But for now, decisions (and government funding) are focused on the short term. And Mesa pilots flying our/their equipment makes sense in the short term.

flynd94
03-28-2020, 12:09 PM
Law. ďAct of GodĒ clause.


And if you can understand that was tried before with the ďAct of GodĒ clause and didnít stand up in court.

fastneat
03-28-2020, 12:21 PM
And if you can understand that was tried before with the ďAct of GodĒ clause and didnít stand up in court.

Because there was a Court to attend. For perspective..

flynd94
03-28-2020, 04:08 PM
Because there was a Court to attend. For perspective..


Thus itís considered settled law. I spent 4 years doing contract enforcement, once it has been arbitrated/administrative law it canít be revisited.

Av8tr1
03-28-2020, 05:01 PM
Not arguing with you, but just as an observation. Whether Mesa pilots fly their equipment or their own mainline pilots fly their planes, the cost of the airplane remains the same. Itís already paid for. The difference is the cost of the labor. Iím pretty sure Mesa labor is less expensive to UA. Weíre cheaper, AND weíre already trained.

Having said that, if this turns out to be a long term problem, then all bets are off. I would agree with you, in that case. But for now, decisions (and government funding) are focused on the short term. And Mesa pilots flying our/their equipment makes sense in the short term.

Could someone like Mesa pull a independence air move?

Sniper66
03-28-2020, 05:27 PM
In house? Why would they do that? Everything, including the bailout money is designed as a short term solution. By the time they train their in-house pilots to fly Ejets and CRJs, the short term will be behind them.



United MEC wants all 76 seaters that United owns on the property
huge fight on the table as I am typing
No CRs to be clear

no scope relief

As Briefed
03-28-2020, 05:39 PM
Shiny jet syndrome?
engines under the wing?

Itsajob
03-28-2020, 05:41 PM
Could someone like Mesa pull a independence air move?

that would be like asking if someone could pull a Jim Bowie/Davy Crockett move. Neither ended well.

propellere
03-28-2020, 07:28 PM
Iím confused.... why is this thread labeled Corona furlough when no one was furloughed?

Iím pretty happy with how the company/union relationship worked out in this situation.

flapoverspeed
03-28-2020, 10:09 PM
Iím confused.... why is this thread labeled Corona furlough when no one was furloughed?

Iím pretty happy with how the company/union relationship worked out in this situation.

All of the new hires in training were furloughed. It isnít clear what has happened to those on IOE, but everyone prior to IOE was sent home and then furloughed a few days latter.

I am NOT happy with how the company/union relationship worked out in this situation. We should not be making concessions to the company and getting almost nothing in return.

Paid2fly
03-29-2020, 01:27 AM
I'm all for some good news in these times, but:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.majorgeeks.com%2Fnews%2Ffile%2 F9234_kool-aid-man.jpg&f=1&nofb=1









No kidding!



:eek:




:D

SpeedyT
03-29-2020, 07:38 AM
Voluntary leave plus 10 hours pay isn't a good deal.

amcnd
03-29-2020, 08:19 AM
Voluntary leave plus 10 hours pay isn't a good deal.


seems 50hrs is industry standard right now...

pangolin
03-29-2020, 09:11 AM
seems 50hrs is industry standard right now...

Supply and demand. Plenty took it. Some even denied.

BRJPilot
03-29-2020, 10:39 AM
seems 50hrs is industry standard right now...
When has Mesa ever been "industry standard", especially where compensation is concerned?

mjpilot
03-29-2020, 01:03 PM
You are trying to compare a regional airline to a legacy carrier, now again, if you donít like where you work than leave, no one is keeping you here. Mesa is a STEPPING STONE to the legacy carriers, no one comes to Mesa in hopes to stay here. The people who have been stuck here are cause they either like it or circumstance didnít align for them to move on. Just like with any job in the world, you start at the bottom of the pyramid getting paid the worst, with no vacation, and other things that make QOL suck, and as you move up in the world, life gets easier, benefits get better and pay goes up. Quit complaining, youíre what I call a dead roach in the system who can only complain.


Right!

You must be a joy to fly with!!!



Why don't you tell that to the 500+ pilots that have been @ Mesa for over 4 years.

1.5 - 2 years until upgrade, then 1.5 - 2 years for the magic 1000 hrs of PIC time. After that, never look back, because you will be @ a Major airline?

Make that 700+ pilots that have been here more than 3 years with that magic 1000 hours PIC time.

Why don't you tell your "stepping stone theory" and "nobody stays @ Mesa" to your next, probably senior check airman right before your next AQP, or upgrade class. Let's see how far that personal greeting will go.

You'll be treated with all the respect you're giving me, I'll guarantee you that.

Mesa is a stepping stone, therefore, we accept $hitt• conditions?


Let me guess: You probably belong to the majority who voted YES on the last pilot contract?

propellere
03-30-2020, 08:39 AM
All of the new hires in training were furloughed. It isnít clear what has happened to those on IOE, but everyone prior to IOE was sent home and then furloughed a few days latter.

I am NOT happy with how the company/union relationship worked out in this situation. We should not be making concessions to the company and getting almost nothing in return.



IOE students were sent home as well on an initial 30 day window. What would you have done differently given you had the choice? Those who got the type rating and didnít have IOE complete are in a pretty interesting spot. They have the type rating & ATP paid for by the company, without the obligation of a bonus. Paid to train for 2-3 months without obligation, not bad. Could wait a few months until hiring picks up and go to another regional carrier with additional bonus money at no fault to their own, assuming bonuses stay intact.

flapoverspeed
03-30-2020, 09:08 AM
What would you have done differently given you had the choice?

I understand why the company furloughed the new hires. What I donít like is the LOA between the company and the union. I would not have agreed to the rebidding for April and the option for the company to reduce the minimum guarantee for April, May and June. I would rather have the existing contract. Full pay until the last day.

kevin18
03-30-2020, 09:23 AM
I understand why the company furloughed the new hires. What I donít like is the LOA between the company and the union. I would not have agreed to the rebidding for April and the option for the company to reduce the minimum guarantee for April, May and June. I would rather have the existing contract. Full pay until the last day.

I would have liked to not see the corona virus chop travel by over 70%, but it didnít. Fact is revenue in is absolutely slashed. Everyone outside of medical personnel are getting hit hard. There had to be cuts either a full cut at the bottom or a partial cut all around. I think everyone taking a small cut is better than just saying eff the people on the bottom. Iíd like to see the executives see a cut as well. Even though it wouldnít impact the company much, it would show solidarity.

terks43
03-30-2020, 09:25 AM
I understand why the company furloughed the new hires. What I donít like is the LOA between the company and the union. I would not have agreed to the rebidding for April and the option for the company to reduce the minimum guarantee for April, May and June. I would rather have the existing contract. Full pay until the last day.

Iíd also like to keep my job while the entire industry sees a more the 95% cut in demand.

backtoregionals
03-30-2020, 09:36 AM
I understand why the company furloughed the new hires. What I donít like is the LOA between the company and the union. I would not have agreed to the rebidding for April and the option for the company to reduce the minimum guarantee for April, May and June. I would rather have the existing contract. Full pay until the last day.

So youíd rather end up furloughed?

airspeedsalive
03-30-2020, 09:59 AM
I understand why the company furloughed the new hires. What I donít like is the LOA between the company and the union. I would not have agreed to the rebidding for April and the option for the company to reduce the minimum guarantee for April, May and June. I would rather have the existing contract. Full pay until the last day.

I've been kind of torn on this issue. I certainly donít want to see any more furloughs, but up to a 10hr cut to
guarantee is a pretty substantial pay cut at our rates. We just donít have that much fat in our contract to give up...the reason airlines always come to pilots first is because during the good times usually pilots do fairly well and in the bad times the companies expect pilots to give some of those gains back. That is not the case at Mesa.

I really hope our MEC wonít give anything else back going forward - and certainly not without some kind of negotiation. If it comes to more furloughs, well, thatís why we have a seniority based system - as I said a potential 10 hour pay cut is substantial to some of us.

flapoverspeed
03-30-2020, 10:24 AM
So youíd rather end up furloughed?

We have already started furloughs. When my seniority number comes up, I will also be furloughed. I would rather get full pay until I am furloughed. The other option is to make concessions to the company, reduce everyoneís pay, and still be facing furloughs. We had 374 flights cancel so far today, which is over 50% of our scheduled flying. I donít see how we are going to avoid furloughing more pilots.

Melit
03-30-2020, 02:00 PM
Except for the next genís, doesnít Mesa own most of the 900ís and a fair number of the 175ís?
Not for long . A lot is happening. Rumor is Ejet could be ramping up

airspeedsalive
03-30-2020, 02:13 PM
Not for long . A lot is happening. Rumor is Ejet could be ramping up

Except for the Compass 175 rumor, I havenít heard anything like that. Ramping up for what? AA?

propellere
03-30-2020, 04:18 PM
I would have liked to not see the corona virus chop travel by over 70%, but it didnít. Fact is revenue in is absolutely slashed. Everyone outside of medical personnel are getting hit hard. There had to be cuts either a full cut at the bottom or a partial cut all around. I think everyone taking a small cut is better than just saying eff the people on the bottom. Iíd like to see the executives see a cut as well. Even though it wouldnít impact the company much, it would show solidarity.

Agreed. Iíd rather take a small cut to help out a fellow pilot before he gets furloughed. There are talented and professional people at every level of the seniority list. I do know that Chief pilots took a pay cut, everyone is working together as a team which is great. Very happy working at Mesa and many friends here who are looking after each other in this time of difficulty.

pangolin
03-30-2020, 05:44 PM
We have already started furloughs. When my seniority number comes up, I will also be furloughed. I would rather get full pay until I am furloughed. The other option is to make concessions to the company, reduce everyoneís pay, and still be facing furloughs. We had 374 flights cancel so far today, which is over 50% of our scheduled flying. I donít see how we are going to avoid furloughing more pilots.

American is cutting 70-80%.

pangolin
03-30-2020, 05:46 PM
Not for long . A lot is happening. Rumor is Ejet could be ramping up

We own only a few of the 175s.

pangolin
04-01-2020, 06:21 AM
IOE students were sent home as well on an initial 30 day window. What would you have done differently given you had the choice? Those who got the type rating and didnít have IOE complete are in a pretty interesting spot. They have the type rating & ATP paid for by the company, without the obligation of a bonus. Paid to train for 2-3 months without obligation, not bad. Could wait a few months until hiring picks up and go to another regional carrier with additional bonus money at no fault to their own, assuming bonuses stay intact.

The bonus isnít paid until IOE is complete. Hence the furlough before IOE is complete. Makes financial sense even though it sucks. Upgrade IOE continued/s.

Snapper86
04-01-2020, 08:45 AM
Agreed. Iíd rather take a small cut to help out a fellow pilot before he gets furloughed. There are talented and professional people at every level of the seniority list. I do know that Chief pilots took a pay cut, everyone is working together as a team which is great. Very happy working at Mesa and many friends here who are looking after each other in this time of difficulty.

We need more people on this forum like you! There is so much negativity and divide here and only a few here are actually apart of working at a team. Maybe thatís past history with some people never working in a industry or activity that makes teamwork a NECESSITY but itís just sad to see. But like the saying goes, donít sit in the depressing forums, itís just all negative cause itís were people go to complain, just like most reviews you see for companies are negative cause who would come on here to talk positively right?😂 Glad to know that the majority of our pilot group is not on this website and they actually love their jobs.

Snapper86
04-01-2020, 09:00 AM
Right!

You must be a joy to fly with!!!



Why don't you tell that to the 500+ pilots that have been @ Mesa for over 4 years.

1.5 - 2 years until upgrade, then 1.5 - 2 years for the magic 1000 hrs of PIC time. After that, never look back, because you will be @ a Major airline?

Make that 700+ pilots that have been here more than 3 years with that magic 1000 hours PIC time.

Why don't you tell your "stepping stone theory" and "nobody stays @ Mesa" to your next, probably senior check airman right before your next AQP, or upgrade class. Let's see how far that personal greeting will go.

You'll be treated with all the respect you're giving me, I'll guarantee you that.

Mesa is a stepping stone, therefore, we accept $hitt• conditions?


Let me guess: You probably belong to the majority who voted YES on the last pilot contract?

oh man... smh 🤦🏼‍♂️ I just wanna make sure I read that properly, are you telling me, if I express that Iím happy with my job, and that Mesa is nothing but a ďstepping stoneĒ for a large majority of the pilot group that Iíll get treated with disrespect? Iím sorry man but youíre wrong, and you should understand that the majority of people who love working at Mesa arenít on this forum or have accounts cause they just go to work then go home vs. the maybe 15 different people on this forum complaining, and so you think thatís what the majority of what Mesa pilots are thinking then huh? Iím on here for one simple reason, to bring the better perspective to people on this forum and that this group of ornery pilots on here isnít the majorityís opinion. I never said no one stays at Mesa I very clearly stated that people choose to stay here because they like it or due to unforeseen circumstances. If you think Mesaís main goal is to bring pilots in and keep them until retirement then you shouldnít have come here if thatís your end goal. They bring people in, fully expecting them to move on within 6 years. Start talking with the younger crowd more often, you may think theyíre some noobie who doesnít know anything or some peasant just out of training but their perspectives are very interesting. Stay updated, stay informed, donít stay in your bubble

Snapper86
04-01-2020, 09:00 AM
Right!

You must be a joy to fly with!!!



Why don't you tell that to the 500+ pilots that have been @ Mesa for over 4 years.

1.5 - 2 years until upgrade, then 1.5 - 2 years for the magic 1000 hrs of PIC time. After that, never look back, because you will be @ a Major airline?

Make that 700+ pilots that have been here more than 3 years with that magic 1000 hours PIC time.

Why don't you tell your "stepping stone theory" and "nobody stays @ Mesa" to your next, probably senior check airman right before your next AQP, or upgrade class. Let's see how far that personal greeting will go.

You'll be treated with all the respect you're giving me, I'll guarantee you that.

Mesa is a stepping stone, therefore, we accept $hitt• conditions?


Let me guess: You probably belong to the majority who voted YES on the last pilot contract?

oh man... smh 🤦🏼‍♂️ I just wanna make sure I read that properly, are you telling me, if I express that Iím happy with my job, and that Mesa is nothing but a ďstepping stoneĒ for a large majority of the pilot group that Iíll get treated with disrespect? Iím sorry man but youíre wrong, and you should understand that the majority of people who love working at Mesa arenít on this forum or have accounts cause they just go to work then go home vs. the maybe 15 different people on this forum complaining, and so you think thatís what the majority of what Mesa pilots are thinking then huh? Iím on here for one simple reason, to bring the better perspective to people on this forum and that this group of ornery pilots on here isnít the majorityís opinion. I never said no one stays at Mesa I very clearly stated that people choose to stay here because they like it or due to unforeseen circumstances. If you think Mesaís main goal is to bring pilots in and keep them until retirement then you shouldnít have come here if thatís your end goal. They bring people in, fully expecting them to move on within 6 years. Start talking with the younger crowd more often, you may think theyíre some noobie who doesnít know anything or some peasant just out of training but their perspectives are very interesting. Stay updated, stay informed, donít stay in your bubble

propellere
04-01-2020, 06:49 PM
We need more people on this forum like you! There is so much negativity and divide here and only a few here are actually apart of working at a team. Maybe thatís past history with some people never working in a industry or activity that makes teamwork a NECESSITY but itís just sad to see. But like the saying goes, donít sit in the depressing forums, itís just all negative cause itís were people go to complain, just like most reviews you see for companies are negative cause who would come on here to talk positively right?😂 Glad to know that the majority of our pilot group is not on this website and they actually love their jobs.

Thanks for the kind words! Teamwork is key as we are not single handing any aspect of the day to day operations. Lots of cancelations of flying this month so far, but everyone is patient through these difficult times. I feel bad for the crew scheduling people right now as they are working the hardest redoing our schedules at the last minute. Hats off to those ladies and gentlemen.

On the note of negativity, I do catch one or two people from time to time speaking negativity in the crew room or flight deck, but try my best to spin their perspectives into positive ones. Tactfully point out that their open conversations about pay and ďstepping stoneĒ talk is generally not tasteful to others as everyone is in different stages of their lives. We should all be happy to have employment, and speaking negativity about our current employer does not shine a positive light on ones self. If someone chooses to move forward to another opportunity thatís great, however not everyone wants to hear about how much you dislike your current status.

Mentorship is something I personally think makes Mesa a great place. If I see new hires fresh out of IOE in the crew room, I introduce myself and ask them how things are going. Commuting or life in general out of training. Open up and offer to them how to bid, adjust their reserve schedule or make sure they have a copy of the pilot contract. Answer any questions they might have to help them along. Itís the investment in ourselves that makes a pilot group great.

Looking forward to the flight schedule stabilizing and passenger counts picking up soon!

mjpilot
04-01-2020, 07:55 PM
oh man... smh 🤦🏼‍♂️ I just wanna make sure I read that properly, are you telling me, if I express that Iím happy with my job, and that Mesa is nothing but a ďstepping stoneĒ for a large majority of the pilot group that Iíll get treated with disrespect? Iím sorry man but youíre wrong, and you should understand that the majority of people who love working at Mesa arenít on this forum or have accounts cause they just go to work then go home vs. the maybe 15 different people on this forum complaining, and so you think thatís what the majority of what Mesa pilots are thinking then huh? Iím on here for one simple reason, to bring the better perspective to people on this forum and that this group of ornery pilots on here isnít the majorityís opinion. I never said no one stays at Mesa I very clearly stated that people choose to stay here because they like it or due to unforeseen circumstances. If you think Mesaís main goal is to bring pilots in and keep them until retirement then you shouldnít have come here if thatís your end goal. They bring people in, fully expecting them to move on within 6 years. Start talking with the younger crowd more often, you may think theyíre some noobie who doesnít know anything or some peasant just out of training but their perspectives are very interesting. Stay updated, stay informed, donít stay in your bubble

LOL

I never said that I'm not happy here. Don't put words in my mouth.

Republic gets 50 hours credit for staying home on vol. LOA.
So does skywest.
Envoy gets 19.

We get 10?

Why don't you explain/justify that to me?



That's my problem, people with this kind of attitude.

mjpilot
04-01-2020, 08:00 PM
oh man... smh 🤦🏼‍♂️ I just wanna make sure I read that properly, are you telling me, if I express that Iím happy with my job, and that Mesa is nothing but a ďstepping stoneĒ for a large majority of the pilot group that Iíll get treated with disrespect? Iím sorry man but youíre wrong, and you should understand that the majority of people who love working at Mesa arenít on this forum or have accounts cause they just go to work then go home vs. the maybe 15 different people on this forum complaining, and so you think thatís what the majority of what Mesa pilots are thinking then huh? Iím on here for one simple reason, to bring the better perspective to people on this forum and that this group of ornery pilots on here isnít the majorityís opinion. I never said no one stays at Mesa I very clearly stated that people choose to stay here because they like it or due to unforeseen circumstances. If you think Mesaís main goal is to bring pilots in and keep them until retirement then you shouldnít have come here if thatís your end goal. They bring people in, fully expecting them to move on within 6 years. Start talking with the younger crowd more often, you may think theyíre some noobie who doesnít know anything or some peasant just out of training but their perspectives are very interesting. Stay updated, stay informed, donít stay in your bubble

By the way, are you the one telling me that my vocabulary doesn't know your big words?

If so, I rest my case. 🙈🙉🙊

Snapper86
04-01-2020, 08:05 PM
LOL

I never said that I'm not happy here. Don't put words in my mouth.

Republic gets 50 hours credit for staying home on vol. LOA.
So does skywest.
Envoy gets 19.

We get 10?

Why don't you explain/justify that to me?



That's my problem, people with this kind of attitude.


you just said
ďMesa is a stepping stone, therefore, we accept $hitt• conditions?Ē
So you enjoy working in ****ty conditions? Whatever man, donít lose sleep over this, youíre just upside down on this is all. If you donít have a single thing nice to say about your job then I donít think it should be your job, I mean, after all you do this for a living. Make the best of your life, and whether that requires a change in your perspective towards this or a different career. But you are a pilot, flying jets, getting paid too, I know sooo many people thatíd give an arm and a leg to be in your position but they canít (and I guess if they gave an arm and a leg they legally wouldnít be able to either, but you get my point) be grateful, and try to find the smaller things in life to smile about.

mjpilot
04-01-2020, 08:20 PM
you just said
ďMesa is a stepping stone, therefore, we accept $hitt• conditions?Ē
So you enjoy working in ****ty conditions? Whatever man, donít lose sleep over this, youíre just upside down on this is all. If you donít have a single thing nice to say about your job then I donít think it should be your job, I mean, after all you do this for a living. Make the best of your life, and whether that requires a change in your perspective towards this or a different career. But you are a pilot, flying jets, getting paid too, I know sooo many people thatíd give an arm and a leg to be in your position but they canít (and I guess if they gave an arm and a leg they legally wouldnít be able to either, but you get my point) be grateful, and try to find the smaller things in life to smile about.

Ohh, you're the snobbish idiot telling me which words seem to big to me.

As a said, you must be a REAL joy to fly with.

That $hitty toxic ganging up attitude with your general distrespect gets you nowhere.

Once more, explain to me how you're happy with 10 hours credit per LOA absence?
$hitty condition as substandard pay, and many disgusting hotels. It's Mesa, right? You'll be @ a Major right @ 1000 hours PIC time.


I'm out and done. Good luck with that attitude.

🙊🙉🙈🤦🤦🤦

Snapper86
04-01-2020, 08:27 PM
Ohh, you're the snobbish idiot telling me which words seem to big to me.

As a said, you must be a REAL joy to fly with.

That $hitty toxic ganging up attitude with your general distrespect gets you nowhere.

Once more, explain to me how you're happy with 10 hours credit per LOA absence?
$hitty condition as substandard pay, and many disgusting hotels. It's Mesa, right? You'll be @ a Major right @ 1000 hours PIC time.


I'm out and done. Good luck with that attitude.

[emoji87][emoji86][emoji85][emoji1751][emoji1751][emoji1751]


I donít write contracts, no one in here does. So I canít tell you how, when who what or why to our contracts, everyone has their speculations and thatís fine, but if youíre not happy than leave. And if youíre saying that you are happy than great, but it doesnít show. You work for a company, respect it. If you want 50 hours for VLOA then go to that company that youíre saying is better. No one is stopping you. Just like how Iíll be up and out to a legacy carrier as soon as I get the call. Mesa is my home for now, Iíll respect that, myself, and love every up and down moment until I get that call to move to bigger and better things.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pangolin
04-01-2020, 08:30 PM
LOL

I never said that I'm not happy here. Don't put words in my mouth.

Republic gets 50 hours credit for staying home on vol. LOA.
So does skywest.
Envoy gets 19.

We get 10?

Why don't you explain/justify that to me?



That's my problem, people with this kind of attitude.

The loa hours were not negotiated. They are what the company offered. Second. The first VLOA had zero credit. If nobody took the 10 maybe more would have been offered but we reportedly have plenty of takers.

Snapper86
04-01-2020, 08:31 PM
The loa hours were not negotiated. They are what the company offered. Second. The first VLOA had zero credit. If nobody took the 10 maybe more would have been offered but we reportedly have plenty of takers.


So there ya go, answered your own questions, looks like Skywest and Republic didnít have enough ďtakersĒ


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pangolin
04-01-2020, 08:35 PM
So there ya go, answered your own questions, looks like Skywest and Republic didnít have enough ďtakersĒ


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

we were also first with the VLOA.

Longhornmaniac8
04-01-2020, 11:07 PM
So there ya go, answered your own questions, looks like Skywest and Republic didnít have enough ďtakersĒ


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkRepublic had more people request SVB than received it. Not sure what you're referring to.

skruts
04-02-2020, 04:38 PM
In light of all of this, I understand Mesa is scheduling interviews again. Is there a perceived light at the end of the tunnel or is the cart way ahead of the horse?

airplane401
04-02-2020, 05:03 PM
In light of all of this, I understand Mesa is scheduling interviews again. Is there a perceived light at the end of the tunnel or is the cart way ahead of the horse?

interviews for what position?

skruts
04-02-2020, 05:07 PM
interviews for what position?

First officer

pangolin
04-02-2020, 05:29 PM
First officer

If mesa gets the grant money and recalls the furloughed trainees they know they can be in a position to pick up the pieces. If the 700s do not go to GoJet as 550s and UA 50 seaters are gone then there may be a place for them and they need to be staffed. No loss of money training when itís free money. If it doesnít work out you just furlough anyway.

airplane401
04-03-2020, 11:33 AM
First officer

Why would they bother interviewing if every single new hire pilot was sent home?

brigadeaviator
04-03-2020, 12:01 PM
Unfortunately I was told there was a big reduction in the recruiting department also to include the Aviate program. I wouldnít anticipate any new hire training for at least a couple of months. (Hoping Iím incorrect though).

Melit
04-03-2020, 06:37 PM
In light of all of this, I understand Mesa is scheduling interviews again. Is there a perceived light at the end of the tunnel or is the cart way ahead of the horse?
There is no light

pangolin
04-05-2020, 04:53 AM
There is no light

You got that right.

DoNoHarm
04-05-2020, 05:05 AM
Unfortunately I was told there was a big reduction in the recruiting department also to include the Aviate program. I wouldnít anticipate any new hire training for at least a couple of months. (Hoping Iím incorrect though).

I would be shocked if the legacy airlines hire for at least another 18 months. It will take that long to reach the threshold of 75% of 2019 air traffic again.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, but the tunnel is just too long for us to see it yet.

Itsajob
04-05-2020, 05:29 AM
I would be shocked if the legacy airlines hire for at least another 18 months. It will take that long to reach the threshold of 75% of 2019 air traffic again.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, but the tunnel is just too long for us to see it yet.

Most of the legacies are going to furlough and probably wonít be hiring for longer than that.

kevin18
04-09-2020, 11:52 AM
If they go to reduced hours does that mean fewer reserve days as well?

Snapper86
04-09-2020, 12:01 PM
If they go to reduced hours does that mean fewer reserve days as well?


Nope, the reserve guys are the ones taking the biggest hit


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NovemberBravo
04-09-2020, 12:10 PM
Nope, the reserve guys are the ones taking the biggest hit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


so you sit on reserve for the same amount of days for less money lol our union does amazing work

Uffda
04-09-2020, 07:18 PM
so you sit on reserve for the same amount of days for less money lol our union does amazing work


Hanlonís razor, never attribute to malice what you can explain by stupidity.

pangolin
04-10-2020, 05:08 AM
Hanlonís razor, never attribute to malice what you can explain by stupidity.

I asked the union about this. Crickets.

20sx
04-10-2020, 02:05 PM
I asked the union about this. Crickets.

From what I was told, the negotiating committee tried. If this gets extended, there should definitely be a change to days off for reserves and a vote by the pilots to approve the mou.

NovemberBravo
04-10-2020, 03:16 PM
Also if the company gets grant money from the government shouldnít we be getting min guarantee

airspeedsalive
04-10-2020, 03:25 PM
Also if the company gets grant money from the government shouldnít we be getting min guarantee

I wondered that too, but Iíve decided that the MEC was in such a big hurry to give a concession that it wonít matter. I suspect that the company will argue that we agreed to the cut before we applied for the grant so it would stay in place. I could be wrong.

20sx
04-10-2020, 03:40 PM
I wondered that too, but Iíve decided that the MEC was in such a big hurry to give a concession that it wonít matter. I suspect that the company will argue that we agreed to the cut before we applied for the grant so it would stay in place. I could be wrong.

It was the threat of over 300 pilots furloughed that created the rush. 20/20 looking back, they should have waited for the CARES act to be approved before voting.

kevin18
04-10-2020, 04:32 PM
Anyone looked at whether we would be eligible for unemployment pay for the cut hours? Iím looking now, and think there is something in there for reduced pay and unemployment.

Snapper86
04-10-2020, 04:49 PM
Anyone looked at whether we would be eligible for unemployment pay for the cut hours? Iím looking now, and think there is something in there for reduced pay and unemployment.


Interesting, let me know what you find please


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Sniper66
04-10-2020, 04:51 PM
I wondered that too, but Iíve decided that the MEC was in such a big hurry to give a concession that it wonít matter. I suspect that the company will argue that we agreed to the cut before we applied for the grant so it would stay in place. I could be wrong.


I told you guys numerous times
be aware of your MEC Chairman
your boss has full control of him because he saved his bacon from going to jail ( RLA rules violations ) for what he did with his buddy the then NC chair back at 2003
the then NC chair joined management and negotiated against the pilots from the management side and all his notes and records disappeared all of a sudden during various arbitrationís for contract violations

guess why you have a single CRJ200 and who is responsible for that ?

and please donít tell me that no other pilot wants the job ......thatís a lame excuse

Snapper86
04-10-2020, 04:53 PM
I told you guys numerous times
be aware of your MEC Chairman
your boss has full control of him because he saved his bacon from going to jail for what he did with his buddy the then NC chair back at 2003
the then NC chair joined management and negotiated against the pilots from the management side and all his notes and records disappeared all of a sudden during arbitration

guess why you have a single CRJ200 and who is responsible for that ?


You have some sort of reference to what youíre talking about. Not do I just wanna cross check your facts but youíre confusing the **** out of me lol


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Sniper66
04-10-2020, 05:01 PM
You have some sort of reference to what youíre talking about. Not do I just wanna cross check your facts but youíre confusing the **** out of me lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


april 2003 contract just ask some who are still there and never been PHX based
those at PHX were inside your current MEC chairs pocket . He was the Chair then
ask about some high speed printers and contract printing issues


be aware of him
he is the same chair now like he was at 2003 and donít be surprised how much he will bend for pay cuts

the faster you replace him the better off you will be during this critical times
thats my opinion for what ever is worth

Monocoupe
04-10-2020, 06:16 PM
april 2003 contract just ask some who are still there and never been PHX based
those at PHX were inside your current MEC chairs pocket . He was the Chair then
ask about some high speed printers and contract printing issues


be aware of him
he is the same chair now like he was at 2003 and donít be surprised how much he will bend for pay cuts

the faster you replace him the better off you will be during this critical times
thats my opinion for what ever is worth

You drunk or having a stroke?

Monocoupe
04-10-2020, 06:18 PM
april 2003 contract just ask some who are still there and never been PHX based
those at PHX were inside your current MEC chairs pocket . He was the Chair then
ask about some high speed printers and contract printing issues


be aware of him
he is the same chair now like he was at 2003 and donít be surprised how much he will bend for pay cuts

the faster you replace him the better off you will be during this critical times
thats my opinion for what ever is worth

You drunk or having a stroke?

20sx
04-10-2020, 06:59 PM
april 2003 contract just ask some who are still there and never been PHX based
those at PHX were inside your current MEC chairs pocket . He was the Chair then
ask about some high speed printers and contract printing issues


be aware of him
he is the same chair now like he was at 2003 and donít be surprised how much he will bend for pay cuts

the faster you replace him the better off you will be during this critical times
thats my opinion for what ever is worth

It's not as easy as nominating someone to take his place. The MEC votes on the Chairman. He has too many loyal supporters in the MEC (some old, some new and naive) to get him out. His incredible knowledge of the history and rules of ALPA confuses many on his lack of knowledge on decent pay rates and decent work rules.

You're right, when it comes to lowering the bar on pay, he will advocate it. It's up to the pilots in each base to let their reps know what they want.

Sniper66
04-10-2020, 07:47 PM
You drunk or having a stroke?



neither, I am Mormon and too young for stroke
but thanks for your concern, AH or DL is that You?

Monocoupe
04-10-2020, 08:30 PM
neither, I am Mormon and too young for stroke
but thanks for your concern, AH or DL is that You?

Can I assume that no Mormonís drink alcohol or strokes only affect elderly individuals?

propellere
04-11-2020, 02:55 AM
It was the threat of over 300 pilots furloughed that created the rush. 20/20 looking back, they should have waited for the CARES act to be approved before voting.

This is the art of negotiation. Maybe I should run for a position at the union. If I was threatened with 300 person furlough, Iíd ask to see the books to justify this position. Not just believe it and sign a document. I believe a changing of the guard is going to be taking place in the union in the near future.

20sx
04-11-2020, 04:22 AM
This is the art of negotiation. Maybe I should run for a position at the union. If I was threatened with 300 person furlough, Iíd ask to see the books to justify this position. Not just believe it and sign a document. I believe a changing of the guard is going to be taking place in the union in the near future.

The negotiations are done by the time the MEC votes. We have a negotiating committee, they are supposed to have done the necessary research by the time they present their work to the MEC.

propellere
04-11-2020, 04:31 AM
The negotiations are done by the time the MEC votes. We have a negotiating committee, they are supposed to have done the necessary research by the time they present their work to the MEC.

I agree, thatís the way it is supposed to work. The question is, did the MOU have a negotiating team? I think not.

20sx
04-11-2020, 09:33 AM
I agree, thatís the way it is supposed to work. The question is, did the MOU have a negotiating team? I think not.

They did. Feel free to contact them if you have questions.

pangolin
04-12-2020, 04:39 AM
Given the current issues with the grants, the MOU With itís no furlough during the reduction is looking more and more like a really wise move. Letís reserve judgement until we see how it plays out shall we?

NovemberBravo
04-12-2020, 07:10 AM
They did. Feel free to contact them if you have questions.

I thought the actual negotiation committee wasnít involved

rld1k
04-12-2020, 09:30 AM
Given the current issues with the grants, the MOU With itís no furlough during the reduction is looking more and more like a really wise move. Letís reserve judgement until we see how it plays out shall we?

Yeah better rush for concessions "just in case"

pangolin
04-12-2020, 11:54 AM
Yeah better rush for concessions "just in case"

short sighted. Iím not sure you grasp reality here.

pangolin
04-12-2020, 12:03 PM
We have a delay with bidding. If we get the grant/loan before we actually bid we may not have a reduced window. If we donít get it then itís reduced window without furloughs or furloughs.

airspeedsalive
04-12-2020, 12:09 PM
We have a delay with bidding. If we get the grant/loan before we actually bid we may not have a reduced window. If we donít get it then itís reduced window without furloughs or furloughs.

I think we are almost certain to see furloughs regardless. Better to get full pay to the last day, rather than bleed for a couple of months first. Pay cuts etc. have never saved a company that Iím aware of.

20sx
04-12-2020, 01:46 PM
I thought the actual negotiation committee wasnít involved

They were definitely involved.

mjpilot
04-12-2020, 02:57 PM
I think we are almost certain to see furloughs regardless. Better to get full pay to the last day, rather than bleed for a couple of months first. Pay cuts etc. have never saved a company that Iím aware of.

101% agree on that! Did I get 30 Grand bonuses when I got hired? Why should I not have full credit now? Did I get a share of the junior dudes bonus ca$h?
​​​​​It is, what it is.
Seniority means everything in this business.

jetlag q
04-12-2020, 06:17 PM
We have a delay with bidding. If we get the grant/loan before we actually bid we may not have a reduced window. If we donít get it then itís reduced window without furloughs or furloughs.

does a reduction in hours qualify for the covid unemployment benefits?

maxjet
04-13-2020, 07:28 AM
I told you guys numerous times
be aware of your MEC Chairman
your boss has full control of him because he saved his bacon from going to jail ( RLA rules violations ) for what he did with his buddy the then NC chair back at 2003
the then NC chair joined management and negotiated against the pilots from the management side and all his notes and records disappeared all of a sudden during various arbitrationís for contract violations

guess why you have a single CRJ200 and who is responsible for that ?

and please donít tell me that no other pilot wants the job ......thatís a lame excuse

Sniper has a very one sided view of events and tends to write revisionist history where he is the hero when he posts. There is generally a little truth sprinkled in to give it some believability. Kind of like watching CNN or FOX. Very one sided.

Try to keep one thing in site. JO is looking out for the health of the company. That represents jobs. With the exception of the lifers (not trying to insult) everybody els3 is trying to get their time and move on. What do you think is better. Sniperís hold the line screw the company attitude, or get pilots back to work at crappy wages so they can get their time and move on? Both sides have merit.

Interesting thing about Sniper is that he was a Pittsburgh Union Rep and pretty much part of the problem back in 2003. His vindictive and caustic actions were what pushed many of the pilots over to Freedom. Ultimately that was a good thing, in that it expanded MAG. Sure did hurt his feelings though. Something he has never gotten over and I suspect keeps him up at night. He is like one of those guys drunk in the bar talking about how great a High School athlete he was. Nobody cares and it is actually very pathetic.

pangolin
04-13-2020, 09:10 AM
I think we are almost certain to see furloughs regardless. Better to get full pay to the last day, rather than bleed for a couple of months first. Pay cuts etc. have never saved a company that Iím aware of.

As a business owner I can tell you that pay comments do save companies. Lay offs happen and people get recalled. Happened continually in the auto industry.

mjpilot
04-13-2020, 10:23 AM
Sniper has a very one sided view of events and tends to write revisionist history where he is the hero when he posts. There is generally a little truth sprinkled in to give it some believability. Kind of like watching CNN or FOX. Very one sided.

Try to keep one thing in site. JO is looking out for the health of the company. That represents jobs. With the exception of the lifers (not trying to insult) everybody els3 is trying to get their time and move on. What do you think is better. Sniperís hold the line screw the company attitude, or get pilots back to work at crappy wages so they can get their time and move on? Both sides have merit.

Interesting thing about Sniper is that he was a Pittsburgh Union Rep and pretty much part of the problem back in 2003. His vindictive and caustic actions were what pushed many of the pilots over to Freedom. Ultimately that was a good thing, in that it expanded MAG. Sure did hurt his feelings though. Something he has never gotten over and I suspect keeps him up at night. He is like one of those guys drunk in the bar talking about how great a High School athlete he was. Nobody cares and it is actually very pathetic.

JO cares about his own pocket, no matter how many pilot jobs or Furloughs it takes to achieve that.

In the end, it's a business, not social welfare.

There are smarter ways to profit for JO than pure pay concessions.

avi8tor614
04-13-2020, 10:47 AM
Sniper has a very one sided view of events and tends to write revisionist history where he is the hero when he posts. There is generally a little truth sprinkled in to give it some believability. Kind of like watching CNN or FOX. Very one sided.

Try to keep one thing in site. JO is looking out for the health of the company. That represents jobs. With the exception of the lifers (not trying to insult) everybody els3 is trying to get their time and move on. What do you think is better. Sniperís hold the line screw the company attitude, or get pilots back to work at crappy wages so they can get their time and move on? Both sides have merit.

Interesting thing about Sniper is that he was a Pittsburgh Union Rep and pretty much part of the problem back in 2003. His vindictive and caustic actions were what pushed many of the pilots over to Freedom. Ultimately that was a good thing, in that it expanded MAG. Sure did hurt his feelings though. Something he has never gotten over and I suspect keeps him up at night. He is like one of those guys drunk in the bar talking about how great a High School athlete he was. Nobody cares and it is actually very pathetic.
Truth: JO is looking out for health of the company. Lie: That represents jobs, financial stability determines health of a company. Mesa has applied for grant money to pay for salaries. Do you know how the federal government determines how much each airline will get? The government took the salaries of the airlines from March 1st, 2019- September 30, 2019. Min guarantee salaries. I was always trying to be fair to our unions. I don't know AH but I figured he was doing the best he could. This now shows me he is totally aligned with the company. That MOU should never have been allowed for anything less than min guarantee. The government is paying for min guarantee for everyone based off last year. In plain english why are any airline unions taking anything but min guarantee if the government is paying for it. Now in JO's and any other airline CEO's defense they have the right to ask us to take less than guarantee and if the Union accepts that's a union problem we have not a JO problem. Truth "JO is looking out for the health of the company". If we go down to 66 hours min guarantee, where is the 10 hours of money from the government going. 10 hours X's 1300 pilots that's a lot of Mula. I'm not even counting our FA's. We should all be asking AH this and expose this BS MOU. We all should be getting min guarantee not this prorated rate based off sharecode partners hours. For the who want to know my source I emailed Joe D. ALPA president myself. An ALPA national rep called me back and spent a good 30 minutes explaining how this works. You all should do the same. The only way we should take lower guarantee is if Mesa extends its promise to not furlough for a few more months because they are banking the money. But wait that decision has been made for us hasn't it.

Sniper66
04-13-2020, 11:14 AM
Sniper has a very one sided view of events and tends to write revisionist history where he is the hero when he posts. There is generally a little truth sprinkled in to give it some believability. Kind of like watching CNN or FOX. Very one sided.

Try to keep one thing in site. JO is looking out for the health of the company. That represents jobs. With the exception of the lifers (not trying to insult) everybody els3 is trying to get their time and move on. What do you think is better. Sniperís hold the line screw the company attitude, or get pilots back to work at crappy wages so they can get their time and move on? Both sides have merit.

Interesting thing about Sniper is that he was a Pittsburgh Union Rep and pretty much part of the problem back in 2003. His vindictive and caustic actions were what pushed many of the pilots over to Freedom. Ultimately that was a good thing, in that it expanded MAG. Sure did hurt his feelings though. Something he has never gotten over and I suspect keeps him up at night. He is like one of those guys drunk in the bar talking about how great a High School athlete he was. Nobody cares and it is actually very pathetic.





arent you a freedom A , ( yes the alter ego that they created with 34 Mesa seniority pilots out of 1285 ) that upgraded out of seniority like 34 others did TTu boy? YES
were you the one that flew a B1900 on a maintenance flight by yourself while your type rating says SIC required and ever since to save your bacon became a management tool? YES
didnít you look after your self to be a jet captain out of seniority behind closed doors stepping all over your co workers while they were on section 6? By the way you would have never made it to a captain on a jet otherwise . YES and YES
Integrity zero TTu boy Zero even the Kallitta boys know what you are and very happy you are gone . You canít hide behind training departments anymore!
how about Max air how much did they like you there TTu boy ! You see the trend TTu you are a man with no integrity.... go look at your face in the mirror and enjoy the money you made now that you are a retiree by always stepping on others and out of seniority accomplishments,,,,


BTW most of Freedom A are known , there is a list out there. Only 1 freedom A got hired by an ALPA airline . Yes 1 and thatís because his father was a management pilot and very discreetly got in. Donít do what TTu did

ImmaAHole
04-13-2020, 04:18 PM
I'm on the outside looking in, if your Union is in the pockets of JO, and pass concessions without your input, that's the pilot groups fault for allowing it. If AH is not properly representing the pilot group, SUE HIM. Recall him!!! Do something about it! Y'all won't, and get what you deserve.

pangolin
04-13-2020, 08:19 PM
the MOU passed before the stimulus was even proposed.

Truth: JO is looking out for health of the company. Lie: That represents jobs, financial stability determines health of a company. Mesa has applied for grant money to pay for salaries. Do you know how the federal government determines how much each airline will get? The government took the salaries of the airlines from March 1st, 2019- September 30, 2019. Min guarantee salaries. I was always trying to be fair to our unions. I don't know AH but I figured he was doing the best he could. This now shows me he is totally aligned with the company. That MOU should never have been allowed for anything less than min guarantee. The government is paying for min guarantee for everyone based off last year. In plain english why are any airline unions taking anything but min guarantee if the government is paying for it. Now in JO's and any other airline CEO's defense they have the right to ask us to take less than guarantee and if the Union accepts that's a union problem we have not a JO problem. Truth "JO is looking out for the health of the company". If we go down to 66 hours min guarantee, where is the 10 hours of money from the government going. 10 hours X's 1300 pilots that's a lot of Mula. I'm not even counting our FA's. We should all be asking AH this and expose this BS MOU. We all should be getting min guarantee not this prorated rate based off sharecode partners hours. For the who want to know my source I emailed Joe D. ALPA president myself. An ALPA national rep called me back and spent a good 30 minutes explaining how this works. You all should do the same. The only way we should take lower guarantee is if Mesa extends its promise to not furlough for a few more months because they are banking the money. But wait that decision has been made for us hasn't it.

domino
04-13-2020, 08:32 PM
I would be shocked if the legacy airlines hire for at least another 18 months. It will take that long to reach the threshold of 75% of 2019 air traffic again.

There is light at the end of the tunnel, but the tunnel is just too long for us to see it yet.

agree. Furloughs will start recall in 2/3 years and hiring probably about 4/5 year mark at both regionals and legacies. Your mileage may vary vis a vis what airline you work for [and pay agreements rescinded). Donít shoot the messenger. Just my wag. TIFWIT.

deltajuliet
04-14-2020, 07:29 AM
arent you a freedom A , ( yes the alter ego that they created with 34 Mesa seniority pilots out of 1285 ) that upgraded out of seniority like 34 others did TTu boy? YES
were you the one that flew a B1900 on a maintenance flight by yourself while your type rating says SIC required and ever since to save your bacon became a management tool? YES
didnít you look after your self to be a jet captain out of seniority behind closed doors stepping all over your co workers while they were on section 6? By the way you would have never made it to a captain on a jet otherwise . YES and YES
Integrity zero TTu boy Zero even the Kallitta boys know what you are and very happy you are gone . You canít hide behind training departments anymore!
how about Max air how much did they like you there TTu boy ! You see the trend TTu you are a man with no integrity.... go look at your face in the mirror and enjoy the money you made now that you are a retiree by always stepping on others and out of seniority accomplishments,,,,


BTW most of Freedom A are known , there is a list out there. Only 1 freedom A got hired by an ALPA airline . Yes 1 and thatís because his father was a management pilot and very discreetly got in. Donít do what TTu did
This is why I come back to these forums.
You have some sort of reference to what youíre talking about. Not do I just wanna cross check your facts but youíre confusing the **** out of me lol
You asked, I'll dig it out. The bolded text is most relevant, but the whole thing really is a gem, so I'll include it all.
This thread has a lot of new guys who really don't have the background knowledge to comment, so I appreciate this post with its eye towards historical context. Because sure, the training department is fine, but we would be remiss to ignore the rich and sordid history of Mesa Air Group's unethical treatment of mainline partners and employees over the last few decades.

Since the early days of Larry Risley, the airline had a reputation for being stingy and low paying. It grew to prominence through a series of mergers and acquisitions that began in earnest during the 1980's. Some of those acquired airlines were casualties of the process and thoroughly gutted after getting bought for cents on the dollar (Aspen Airways).

As it grew, management had numerous pilot groups to deal with that were quickly unionizing. This was remedied in 2002 by the creation of Freedom. What was Freedom?
For those unfamiliar, MAG management created Freedom in 2002 to work around the pesky Mesa pilots as they negotiated for a better contract. Why bother with that when you can just transfer CRJ's from one subsidiary to another non-Union one? Mesa crews started showing up to the airport to find a Freedom crew already there boarding their airplane; suddenly it was now a flight operated by Freedom. And there was no cancellation pay for the Mesa crew. Flying was being stolen literally right in front of them. It was to a point that Mesa was in very real danger of no longer existing as Freedom grew and grew, screwing every pilot on the Mesa seniority list royally.

The only obstacle for management was getting pilots for this new operation, and it was immediately obvious to every pilot at Mesa that going there would be a very bad thing. If everyone said no to switching, it would've stopped management dead in their tracks.

But there are always those just looking out for #1, sadly, and it was enough for an initial cadre. A few senior Captains went over for big bonuses (I've heard around $30,000, but can't verify that), others for boosted pay rates (of course no future pilots would get those pay rates). Junior Captains and FO's jumped over to suddenly increase their relative seniority tenfold. Now a 3-year FO was walking onto a Freedom flight with 4 bars on his shoulders as a 12-year Mesa Captain lost his 4-day.

Needless to say our negotiating position for that contract was decimated, and what's more the contract we secured several years later that included the scope language that killed Freedom was a lucky fluke, and even then the rest of the contract was **** poor to get that language. Essentially, no other improvements could be made, so because of this whole Freedom fiasco we're 1-2 contracts behind every other regional. That's how Mesa got to be what it is today.

All those Freedom A Listers? The guys who knowingly back stabbed every other Mesa pilot for money and career progression? They now fill the ranks of management pilots and check airmen.

Sickening.

Mesa Air Group has also been a proud participant in numerous lawsuits, including getting sued by United 1997 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Air_Group#Difficulties_and_loss_of_the_United _codeshare), by Aloha and Hawaiian in 2006 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Air_Group#Hawaiian_market_entrance_and_relate d_lawsuits), and oddly enough trying to sue Delta, in Atlanta, around 2008 (MESA AIR GROUP INC v. DELTA AIR LINES INC | FindLaw (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1378969.html)). More recently, our union sued the company as well.

My favorite was the Aloha lawsuit. Essentially Mesa looked at its books for the purposes of investment or acquisition when the airline wasn't doing well. After saying "No thanks," the company turned around and illegally used that information to compete in Hawaii on the same routes, effectively killing Aloha. They successfully sued us for tens of millions of dollars, but not before we lost the same or more flying CRJ's at a loss around Hawaii.

Shenzen Airlines is another fun one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesa_Airlines#Kunpeng_Airlines We had a big falling out with a Chinese airline after trying to create a local joint venture with it. The wanted nothing to do with us after the fact.

Following all these shenanigans, Mesa was the object of a Congressional inquiry and heavily reorganized by a bankruptcy court. They found our CEO contracted with and outsourced to a lot of his own companies, and Mesa paid those companies handsomely for their services. Ask around about the Del Rio, the shady hotel he owned and put crews in. The bankruptcy court put a stop to all that, but many rumors exist on how he faced no legal prosecution. Earlier, he actually fled the country after illegal dealings on Wall Street. That's how he went to the UK for several years and got to be "good buddies" with Richard Branson. Supposedly his lawyer eventually reached a plea deal in which he could return with no jail time.

There is also an extensive history of mistreatment of employees. The company has always stalled negotiations as long as possible, and we were in negotiations for this recent TA for seven years. The only company I know that went longer was Republic, I think their management held out for eight.

Even after reaching a contract, the company fights tooth and nail to readjust the meaning of plain English. My favorite example of this was when we went into arbitration over 50-seat base pay. The company was paying pilots the far lower CRJ-200 rates for sick time, vacation, training, etc. While the contract never specified how that time would be paid, our union reasonably argued that there is only one spare CRJ-200 on property, and our 100+ other aircraft were all in the 76 seat range. It stands to reason we should be paid what nearly every aircraft on property reflects, and what we're normally paid for flying duties.

The story goes that they took a current PHX Captain who hated flying the line and had been part of those negotiations on the union's side, offered him a cushy desk job to say the understanding at the time favored the company's present position, and he did just that. The kicker is after it was all done, they sent him back to the line.

As our seniority list dwindled the last two years amidst stalled negotiations, low pay, and crew mistreatment, there were concerns raised about the caliber of pilot coming to the company. Why would anyone come here when they could make two or three times as much at almost any other regional? It became apparent we were getting the unwanted pilots who couldn't get hired anywhere else. People with DUI's, constant checkride busts, accidents, personality deficiencies, and various other skeletons. Many couldn't hack it at other regionals. There were (are) also the second career types who've just dinked around in Cessnas the last 30 years and want to fly a big boy jet; many of them haven't done the stereotype surrounding them any favors.

These people aren't everyone here, but they do exist, and in numbers far exceeding what most are comfortable with. Now Mesa pilots have a reputation of being low quality, and some legitimately worry about their prospects of getting hired [elsewhere].

None of this even begins to address the day to day grind of dealing with crew tracking, their attempts to junior assign you, shoddy maintenance, less days off, lower pay, bad hotels, and so much more. But hey, if you're not concerned about any of this, come give Mesa a try!

(Seriously, go through some old threads. The anti-Mesa sentiment is alive and well in threads over a decade old on this website)

BRJPilot
04-14-2020, 08:19 AM
This is why I come back to these forums.

You asked, I'll dig it out. The bolded text is most relevant, but the whole thing really is a gem, so I'll include it all.
Hopefuly itsmytime and pangolin read this post above for some insight into why people are always bashing Mesa!

pangolin
04-14-2020, 08:23 AM
Hopefuly itsmytime and pangolin read this post above for some insight into why people are always bashing Mesa!

I totally understand the beast. My background is business. Business isnít always pretty. I donít applaud or endorse the methods used but I do UNDERSTAND them. Iím pragmatic.

Sniper66
04-14-2020, 08:27 AM
This is why I come back to these forums.

You asked, I'll dig it out. The bolded text is most relevant, but the whole thing really is a gem, so I'll include it all.





very nicely put together
and 100 percent correct

thank you

itsmytime
04-14-2020, 08:28 AM
Hopefuly itsmytime and pangolin read this post above for some insight into why people are always bashing Mesa!

ive got no problem with people bashing Mesa. Itís the bashing of the pilots I take issue with.

BRJPilot
04-14-2020, 01:52 PM
ive got no problem with people bashing Mesa. Itís the bashing of the pilots I take issue with.
So I guess you take issue with this part then:

"As our seniority list dwindled the last two years amidst stalled negotiations, low pay, and crew mistreatment, there were concerns raised about the caliber of pilot coming to the company. Why would anyone come here when they could make two or three times as much at almost any other regional? It became apparent we were getting the unwanted pilots who couldn't get hired anywhere else. People with DUI's, constant checkride busts, accidents, personality deficiencies, and various other skeletons. Many couldn't hack it at other regionals. There were (are) also the second career types who've just dinked around in Cessnas the last 30 years and want to fly a big boy jet; many of them haven't done the stereotype surrounding them any favors.
These people aren't everyone here, but they do exist, and in numbers far exceeding what most are comfortable with. Now Mesa pilots have a reputation of being low quality, and some legitimately worry about their prospects of getting hired [elsewhere]."

itsmytime
04-14-2020, 01:57 PM
So I guess you take issue with this part then:

"As our seniority list dwindled the last two years amidst stalled negotiations, low pay, and crew mistreatment, there were concerns raised about the caliber of pilot coming to the company. Why would anyone come here when they could make two or three times as much at almost any other regional? It became apparent we were getting the unwanted pilots who couldn't get hired anywhere else. People with DUI's, constant checkride busts, accidents, personality deficiencies, and various other skeletons. Many couldn't hack it at other regionals. There were (are) also the second career types who've just dinked around in Cessnas the last 30 years and want to fly a big boy jet; many of them haven't done the stereotype surrounding them any favors.
These people aren't everyone here, but they do exist, and in numbers far exceeding what most are comfortable with. Now Mesa pilots have a reputation of being low quality, and some legitimately worry about their prospects of getting hired [elsewhere]."

source?
filler

Melit
04-14-2020, 02:55 PM
https://home.treasury.gov/news/press-releases/sm977

mjpilot
04-14-2020, 03:37 PM
Interesting read of the 2003 Mesa contract.

I recognize 3 names on the freedom senority list, 1 dude still employed at Mesa.

How long has Andy been in the Union?

https://crewroom.alpa.org/ualunity/DesktopModules/ALPA_Documents/ALPA_DocumentsDownload.aspx?itemid=13911&ModuleId=13609

deltajuliet
04-14-2020, 04:31 PM
source?
filler
Conrad Jules Aska. Before you say he wasn't employed here at the time, it could have easily happened at Mesa instead. And one of the pilot group was still killed.
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-air-atlas-crash-pilot-unsafe-ntsb-2019-12

itsmytime
04-14-2020, 05:00 PM
Conrad Jules Aska. Before you say he wasn't employed here at the time, it could have easily happened at Mesa instead. And one of the pilot group was still killed.
https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-air-atlas-crash-pilot-unsafe-ntsb-2019-12

weíve already spoken about him earlier in the thread. I was asking for the source of that diatribe that brjpilot posted.

and even giving you that, for all the **** that is talked about Mesa pilots, only 1 can be found that has bent metal?

mjpilot
04-14-2020, 06:05 PM
weíve already spoken about him earlier in the thread. I was asking for the source of that diatribe that brjpilot posted.

and even giving you that, for all the **** that is talked about Mesa pilots, only 1 can be found that has bent metal?

I'm not sure if you're a Captain or fo @ Mesa.

I've witnessed a couple of fos who would have bent metal if I had not intervened or simply taken control in those situations.

There are plenty of fos trying to upgrade a second time who get pink slipped, rightfully so.

That's a true statement at other airlines as well, Mesa probably just has a larger percentage of those.

Snapper86
04-14-2020, 06:11 PM
So I guess you take issue with this part then:

"As our seniority list dwindled the last two years amidst stalled negotiations, low pay, and crew mistreatment, there were concerns raised about the caliber of pilot coming to the company. Why would anyone come here when they could make two or three times as much at almost any other regional? It became apparent we were getting the unwanted pilots who couldn't get hired anywhere else. People with DUI's, constant checkride busts, accidents, personality deficiencies, and various other skeletons. Many couldn't hack it at other regionals. There were (are) also the second career types who've just dinked around in Cessnas the last 30 years and want to fly a big boy jet; many of them haven't done the stereotype surrounding them any favors.
These people aren't everyone here, but they do exist, and in numbers far exceeding what most are comfortable with. Now Mesa pilots have a reputation of being low quality, and some legitimately worry about their prospects of getting hired [elsewhere]."


Are you implying Mesa hires ****ty pilots? I came here because of its base locations, among several other things. I have nothing on my criminal record and not a single failed Checkride either. You might want to double check your thinking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Snapper86
04-14-2020, 06:20 PM
I'm not sure if you're a Captain or fo @ Mesa.

I've witnessed a couple of fos who would have bent metal if I had not intervened or simply taken control in those situations.

There are plenty of fos trying to upgrade a second time who get pink slipped, rightfully so.

That's a true statement at other airlines as well, Mesa probably just has a larger percentage of those.


See this is the problem... Iím not trying to say youíre wrong, but you might not be thinking about it from a different angle. Iím sure youíve flown with bad pilots, you will wherever you hold an aviation job. But food for thought, I did very well through all my pilot training and never had a problem getting a certificate and never failed a Checkride, but, for a first time I found getting my type through Mesaís training to be one of the hardest things yet and my 4 hour oral exam with Mr Reed was no joke. So what Iím getting at is maybe consider Mesaís training to be the hardest of the airlines. I know guys at several other regionals who said their training was easy, so my understanding is Mesa isnít going to put a guy in a seat if they donít meet the proper standards. Yea, sure some make it by who shouldnít, but be proud in knowing your airline isnít a joke with training. Up grading to captain isnít for everyone, Iím glad people are getting denied, I am willing to make a bet that a guy who gets denied upgrade at Mesa would of had a better chance on that upgrade elsewhere


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

itsmytime
04-14-2020, 06:39 PM
That's a true statement at other airlines as well, Mesa probably just has a larger percentage of those.

thats all Iím saying. Thereís bad pilots at every airline being protected by good captains, and FOís. Mesa hasnít cornered the market on poor pilots.

mjpilot
04-14-2020, 06:52 PM
See this is the problem... Iím not trying to say youíre wrong, but you might not be thinking about it from a different angle. Iím sure youíve flown with bad pilots, you will wherever you hold an aviation job. But food for thought, I did very well through all my pilot training and never had a problem getting a certificate and never failed a Checkride, but, for a first time I found getting my type through Mesaís training to be one of the hardest things yet and my 4 hour oral exam with Mr Reed was no joke. So what Iím getting at is maybe consider Mesaís training to be the hardest of the airlines. I know guys at several other regionals who said their training was easy, so my understanding is Mesa isnít going to put a guy in a seat if they donít meet the proper standards. Yea, sure some make it by who shouldnít, but be proud in knowing your airline isnít a joke with training. Up grading to captain isnít for everyone, Iím glad people are getting denied, I am willing to make a bet that a guy who gets denied upgrade at Mesa would of had a better chance on that upgrade elsewhere


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The FAA has tightened the screws. That's why the training has gotten harder.

2 years ago, I had an FAA inspector on my jump seat telling me that Mesa has the highest amount of ASAP REPORTS of any airline, by far.
And that's why he was sitting there.


Lately, I've flown with very sharp and competent FOs in the Ejet.

mjpilot
04-14-2020, 06:53 PM
thats all Iím saying. Thereís bad pilots at every airline being protected by good captains, and FOís. Mesa hasnít cornered the market on poor pilots.

Sure, I'll agree on that one.

The problem is when bad captains need to be protected by good FO's.

deltajuliet
04-14-2020, 06:56 PM
we’ve already spoken about him earlier in the thread. I was asking for the source of that diatribe that brjpilot posted.
That was me. I said that at the end of 2017.
I'm not sure if you're a Captain or fo @ Mesa.

I've witnessed a couple of fos who would have bent metal if I had not intervened or simply taken control in those situations
This happened on more occasions than I'd care to admit.
Are you implying Mesa hires ****ty pilots?
I didn't imply anything. I said it.
I came here because of its base locations, among several other things. I have nothing on my criminal record and not a single failed Checkride either.
None of these statements were aimed at you. Not every pilot at Mesa is a failure, but the ones who aren't generally know their worth and aren't company cheerleaders.
thats all I’m saying. There’s bad pilots at every airline being protected by good captains, and FO’s. Mesa hasn’t cornered the market on poor pilots.
I'm not trying to condescend with the whole "Have you upgraded?" line, but have you upgraded? There can be weak FO's and even weak Captains at all the airlines, but Mesa really, really took it to another level. These forums contain multitudes of posts from a myriad of posters attesting to this.
The problem is when bad captains need to be protected by good FO's.
Or worse, when bad Captains get paired with bad FO's...

mjpilot
04-14-2020, 07:05 PM
Or worse, when bad Captains get paired with bad FO's...

LOL, getting comical. The blind leading the blind.

​​​​​​http://avherald.com/h?article=487835fb

https://www.wdrb.com/news/united-express-flight-makes-unscheduled-landing-at-louisville-international-airport/article_0fd261c4-3ab8-59d0-89ad-317c6391f7cc.html

I'm sure there are more out there. Those are the only 2 I've heard of.

Luckily, Mesa Air Group never had a fatality within the last 28 years, according to an NTSB search.
Ironically, that makes Mesa Air one of the safest airlines in the world!?!?!?

av02
04-14-2020, 08:15 PM
does a reduction in hours qualify for the covid unemployment benefits?

which state do we applied for unemployment benefits?? Arizona?? or where we live

NovemberBravo
04-14-2020, 08:15 PM
LOL, getting comical. The blind leading the blind.

​​​​​​http://avherald.com/h?article=487835fb

https://www.wdrb.com/news/united-express-flight-makes-unscheduled-landing-at-louisville-international-airport/article_0fd261c4-3ab8-59d0-89ad-317c6391f7cc.html

I'm sure there are more out there. Those are the only 2 I've heard of.

Luckily, Mesa Air Group never had a fatality within the last 28 years, according to an NTSB search.
Ironically, that makes Mesa Air one of the safest airlines in the world!?!?!?

That 1st one is why the autopilot is no longer MELable at Mesa I flew that plane the next day I think, still had grass and mud on it. Apparently the FO was very bad they let him go after.

mjpilot
04-14-2020, 08:17 PM
That 1st one is why the autopilot is no longer MELable at Mesa I flew that plane the next day I think, still had grass and mud on it. Apparently the FO was very bad they let him go after.

Captain, who landed the plane with tunnel vision, was hired at United about 6 month later? But unfortunately shortly washed out for whatever reason.

Sniper66
04-14-2020, 08:32 PM
Sniper has a very one sided view of events and tends to write revisionist history where he is the hero when he posts. There is generally a little truth sprinkled in to give it some believability. Kind of like watching CNN or FOX. Very one sided.

Try to keep one thing in site. JO is looking out for the health of the company. That represents jobs. With the exception of the lifers (not trying to insult) everybody els3 is trying to get their time and move on. What do you think is better. Sniper’s hold the line screw the company attitude, or get pilots back to work at crappy wages so they can get their time and move on? Both sides have merit.

Interesting thing about Sniper is that he was a Pittsburgh Union Rep and pretty much part of the problem back in 2003. His vindictive and caustic actions were what pushed many of the pilots over to Freedom. Ultimately that was a good thing, in that it expanded MAG. Sure did hurt his feelings though. Something he has never gotten over and I suspect keeps him up at night. He is like one of those guys drunk in the bar talking about how great a High School athlete he was. Nobody cares and it is actually very pathetic.





where are you no integrity freedom a A TTu retiree Kallitta super 747 captain

Enjoy your dirty money that you earned TTu

pilots at Mesa , Max Air and Kallitta know very well your no integrity selfish character

Why just sending me private messages TTu boy,,,,,

Defend yourself here And open to public TTu boy

ORD170
04-14-2020, 10:50 PM
That 1st one is why the autopilot is no longer MELable at Mesa I flew that plane the next day I think, still had grass and mud on it. Apparently the FO was very bad they let him go after.

Never heard of any 121 not being able to defer the autopilot. Previously at three different regionals and now at a LCC. Does this include the 170s?

fastneat
04-15-2020, 05:41 AM
which state do we applied for unemployment benefits?? Arizona?? or where we live


You apply in Arizona.

pangolin
04-15-2020, 05:42 AM
I'm not sure if you're a Captain or fo @ Mesa.

I've witnessed a couple of fos who would have bent metal if I had not intervened or simply taken control in those situations.

There are plenty of fos trying to upgrade a second time who get pink slipped, rightfully so.

That's a true statement at other airlines as well, Mesa probably just has a larger percentage of those.

FOs Have bent metal recently. We went through a good group of FOs but now that the airplanes are light Iíve had to intervene more often.

pangolin
04-15-2020, 05:43 AM
You apply in Arizona.

maybe. If phx based. Apply in the state of your domicile. If thereís a furlough.

pangolin
04-15-2020, 05:44 AM
Never heard of any 121 not being able to defer the autopilot. Previously at three different regionals and now at a LCC. Does this include the 170s?

At Mesa the autopilot is deferrable.

terks43
04-15-2020, 05:48 AM
FOs Have bent metal recently. We went through a good group of FOs but now that the airplanes are light Iíve had to intervene more often.
Who exactly are you flying with? I havenít had to intervene once on the CRJ side.

fastneat
04-15-2020, 05:55 AM
maybe. If phx based. Apply in the state of your domicile. If thereís a furlough.

The company is based in PHX. Therefore, the company pays unemployment insurance to the state of Arizona. Trust me. I tried applying to the state I pay taxes to, and they had no record of my earnings. Guess which state has a record of my earnings, because thatís the state where the unemployment insurance is paid? Arizona.

pangolin
04-15-2020, 07:00 AM
Who exactly are you flying with? I havenít had to intervene once on the CRJ side.

Brand spanking new guys just off Ioe. Check ftweb for 241.

Snapper86
04-15-2020, 07:42 AM
Brand spanking new guys just off Ioe. Check ftweb for 241.


What else would you expect from someone fresh off IOE? Letís compare apples to apples, you just completed you private pilot check-ride which was with a check airman and they deemed you capable of acting as PIC of a little 172 after flying it for only 4 hours, you think that person was a perfect pilot for their next 500 landings in that 172? No, they were still unstable sometimes and planted a landing or two. Itís a learning curve and experience is everything, getting 40 hours in IOE and the check airman saying youíre good to go doesnít mean that the guy in the right seat isnít gonna make mistakes. Have some empathy for your FO, calmly teach him, let him make the mistakes within a reasonable safety margin and then intervene if necessary to SHOW how to fix it and do it right, not to be a rude know it all captain. Just look out for your FO cause he may one day be your chief pilot, your boss, your captain at a major, you never know with this industry so have good character


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pangolin
04-15-2020, 07:51 AM
Look I know what itís like to be a new FO. I have a ton of patience. My definition of intervening may be different than yours. Iíve rarely had to take the controls. Maybe twice. I have had to make some suggestions and guide more recently than in the past. Iíve seen more loss of SA recently that required some direct intervention. The cadets we get are absolutely awesome. Iíd love to see more. The ATP graduates who did only CFI are a bit weaker. Ex Mil are hit and miss.


What else would you expect from someone fresh off IOE? Letís compare apples to apples, you just completed you private pilot check-ride which was with a check airman and they deemed you capable of acting as PIC of a little 172 after flying it for only 4 hours, you think that person was a perfect pilot for their next 500 landings in that 172? No, they were still unstable sometimes and planted a landing or two. Itís a learning curve and experience is everything, getting 40 hours in IOE and the check airman saying youíre good to go doesnít mean that the guy in the right seat isnít gonna make mistakes. Have some empathy for your FO, calmly teach him, let him make the mistakes within a reasonable safety margin and then intervene if necessary to SHOW how to fix it and do it right, not to be a rude know it all captain. Just look out for your FO cause he may one day be your chief pilot, your boss, your captain at a major, you never know with this industry so have good character


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

pangolin
04-15-2020, 07:52 AM
The company is based in PHX. Therefore, the company pays unemployment insurance to the state of Arizona. Trust me. I tried applying to the state I pay taxes to, and they had no record of my earnings. Guess which state has a record of my earnings, because thatís the state where the unemployment insurance is paid? Arizona.

Not so sure about this. I read it as your domicile. Hopefully we donít have to find out.

Snapper86
04-15-2020, 07:53 AM
Look I know what itís like to be a new FO. I have a ton of patience. My definition of intervening may be different than yours. Iíve rarely had to take the controls. Maybe twice. I have had to make some suggestions and guide more recently than in the past. Iíve seen more loss of SA recently that required some direct intervention. The cadets we get are absolutely awesome. Iíd love to see more. The ATP graduates who did only CFI are a bit weaker. Ex Mil are hit and miss.


I like to hear that, I originally thought you were putting down the FOs for weak performance when they were right out of IOE


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NovemberBravo
04-15-2020, 08:03 AM
Never heard of any 121 not being able to defer the autopilot. Previously at three different regionals and now at a LCC. Does this include the 170s?

it used to be a 3 or 10 day now itís only deferrable for one flight back to a MX base. CRJ

NovemberBravo
04-15-2020, 08:07 AM
Who exactly are you flying with? I havenít had to intervene once on the CRJ side.

The CRJ new hires are better than they have been in a long time. Although I had to take controls recently

flynd94
04-15-2020, 09:12 AM
Brand spanking new guys just off Ioe. Check ftweb for 241.

Hopefully you talk with Pro Standards, training committee and/or their CP. Send them back for more OE. Unless it was extremely challenging conditions this shouldnít happen.

Before everyone jumps on me I was a LCA at the regionals

ImmaAHole
04-15-2020, 09:23 AM
Unfortunately, what future hiring departments consider to be good places to hire from, is completely out of your control. We have a lot of Mesa people, no issues that I know of. All it takes is two or three bad apples from your company doing poorly in training, and the next six to eight months, no one from your company gets looked at. Life isn't fair.

MrWizard
04-15-2020, 02:44 PM
mjpilot wrote:

"Luckily, Mesa Air Group never had a fatality within the last 28 years, according to an NTSB search.
Ironically, that makes Mesa Air one of the safest airlines in the world!?!?!?"

Facts are helpful to place so much of these threads in the proper context.

Here's a fact for you to look up to help you out:

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/stories/2003/01/06/daily32.html

You can do your own search for N233YV at ntsb.gov

So we are not splitting hairs here, you did say Mesa Air Group never had a fatality in the past 28 years.

MrWizard
04-15-2020, 03:27 PM
[QUOTE=deltajuliet;3031887]This is why I come back to these forums.

"You asked, I'll dig it out."

Regarding the stockbroker background of JO and the SEC investigation/charges, do some internet digging for the following citation: 51 S.E.C. 135-141 1992 Ornstein. You may need to visit your law library to read that one in its entirety; the SEC searchable database online does not have the full case.

JO has nobody's best interests in mind, other than his own. It has been proven time and time again. Remind me how much stock you got when Mesa went public a couple years ago. Mesa went public on 8/10/18 .. then on 9/11/18 (ironic that date) JO sold off 277,000+ of his shares (https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/MESA/insiders?pid=27230) from the IPO .. that is the shortest executive officer post-IPO stock lockup period (https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/trading-investing/lock-up-period/) I have ever seen. How many shares did you get as a pilot? The mechanics? How many shares did the rank-and-file office workers at 44th Street get?

You cannot change the spots on a leopard .. or whatever metaphor you want to use.

Newbies and cheerleaders like Jleep75 and others may not have benefit of knowing all the background of Mesa and JO.

I've tried to coin a faux phrase to encapsulate all of this. Cave ne molestie or perhaps Aliquam cave. Anyone better versed in Latin may offer their suggestions. :-)

Sniper66
04-15-2020, 03:54 PM
[QUOTE=MrWizard;3033031][QUOTE=deltajuliet;3031887]This is why I come back to these forums.

"You asked, I'll dig it out."

Regarding the stockbroker background of JO and the SEC investigation/charges, do some internet digging for the following citation: 51 S.E.C. 135-141 1992 (tel:135-141 1992) Ornstein. You may need to visit your law library to read that one in its entirety; the SEC searchable database online does not have the full case.

JO has nobody's best interests in mind, other than his own. It has been proven time and time again. Remind me how much stock you got when Mesa went public a couple years ago. Mesa went public on 8/10/18 .. then on 9/11/18 (ironic that date) JO sold off 277,000+ of his shares (https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/MESA/insiders?pid=27230) from the IPO .. that is the shortest executive officer post-IPO stock lockup period (https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/knowledge/trading-investing/lock-up-period/) I have ever seen. How many shares did you get as a pilot? The mechanics? How many shares did the rank-and-file office workers at 44th Street get?


񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔񺡔—-


I hope those Freedom A stooges like no integrity TTu aka Maxair realized how much they have been used
and therefore made the shame no good pilot list..Freedom A list

for 30 coins I may add

They should be labeled as traitors in the pilot community because that’s what they are
every regional out there had to meet the Mesa 2003 contract standards, yes that POS contract was thrown on the table of every regionals negotiations session


I love keeping the Freedom A issue alive even though it has been 18 years. We will never forget those low life SBs
SBs