Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




Pages : [1] 2

View Full Version : 23K/Recovery Questions Thread


Scoop
03-26-2020, 05:13 AM
I have renamed this thread to make it a one stop shopping for 23K/Recovery/Reroute type questions. Thanks for all the responses - We will also pin this thread for the time being.

I have a trip tonight starting with a red-eye that has been cancelled. Can someone please explain the new 23K policy to me and type very slowly. ;) If I understand it correctly (which I probably don't) I am basically on long call and will be given a 12 hour heads up for any assignment. Is this correct?

As a commuter can they assign me another trip last minute in which case I will need to commute in?

Day 2 is a DH only so that's not needed. I guess if Day three goes and I have not been assigned something else I can DV8 on Day 2 to be in potion on Day 3.

Thanks Scoop


hockeypilot44
03-26-2020, 05:15 AM
Let us know what happens. I think by the end of April, we are all going to be well-versed in how 23k works.

sailingfun
03-26-2020, 05:19 AM
I have a trip tonight starting with a red-eye that has been cancelled. Can someone please explain the new 23K policy to me and type very slowly. ;) If I understand it correctly (which I probably don't) I am basically on long call and will be given a 12 hour heads up for any assignment. Is this correct?

As a commuter can they assign me another trip last minute in which case I will need to commute in?

Day 2 is a DH only so that's not needed. I guess if Day three goes and I have not been assigned something else I can DV8 on Day 2 to be in potion on Day 3.

Thanks Scoop

If the rotation is not cancelled I donít believe you have any obligation.


53x11
03-26-2020, 05:21 AM
If the rotation is not cancelled I donít believe you have any obligation.

Agree. Rotation has to be cxíd

Abouttime2fish
03-26-2020, 05:31 AM
Good luck. Company hasnít been following g rules or at all consistent in what they do. If they cancel first leg, supposed to NOOP the rotation and put you in 23k. Iíve got a trip today they did that. But my trip on the 20th? Nope. Just kept me on the hook for day 2 after cancelling all of day 1 and first half of day 2.

dc10guy
03-26-2020, 05:37 AM
I have a 1 day on the 28th that both leg cancelled. Still on my line. What is my obligation? It has not been NOOP. Trying to plan commute

sailingfun
03-26-2020, 05:42 AM
Good luck. Company hasnít been following g rules or at all consistent in what they do. If they cancel first leg, supposed to NOOP the rotation and put you in 23k. Iíve got a trip today they did that. But my trip on the 20th? Nope. Just kept me on the hook for day 2 after cancelling all of day 1 and first half of day 2.

There is no requirement for the company to cancel a rotation because the first leg or day cancels. In fact the contract specifically allows the company to deadhead you to pick up the remainder of the rotation.

PapaMike
03-26-2020, 06:23 AM
My understanding:

First leg cancels and you are on the hook for reassignment up until original report time +6 hours (no change to current contract)

Any reassignment during that 6 hour window will come with no less than 12 hours to the new report time (as opposed to "promptly available")

So, there is no obligation of the company to do anything to your cancelled first day until as late as original report time +6 hours and they must have you back within your original footprint +4 hours.

sailingfun
03-26-2020, 06:31 AM
Note the first line in the 23K section. Everything else is contingent on that.

1. A regular pilot who is removed from a rotation due to IROPS affecting his rotation

53x11
03-26-2020, 06:42 AM
Per the definition of IROP, the only way possible I see him having 23K obligation is if his cx was due to another cx. Am I reading that right?

53x11
03-26-2020, 06:44 AM
Also of note the 23K exception from LOA20-01 is only effective for the April bid period.

ERflyer
03-26-2020, 06:54 AM
There is no requirement for the company to cancel a rotation because the first leg or day cancels. In fact the contract specifically allows the company to deadhead you to pick up the remainder of the rotation.

They should however rewrite the rotation to show a DH. Correct? They canít just leave dangling canceled pieces of it without it all connecting together into a coherent path.

hockeypilot44
03-26-2020, 07:14 AM
They should however rewrite the rotation to show a DH. Correct? They canít just leave dangling canceled pieces of it without it all connecting together into a coherent path.

This is what I'm trying to figure out. My schedule doesn't make sense.

lake
03-26-2020, 07:23 AM
If your rotation starts at 1900 can they assign you flying prior to your original sign in time?
thanks

ERflyer
03-26-2020, 07:29 AM
This is what I'm trying to figure out. My schedule doesn't make sense.

If it is the day before or day of the trip I would call crew scheduling. If it is longer than that I would give them time to adjust or Noop the trip. As we all know they are overwhelmed right now. I had March trips that were obviously not going and it took them a long time to Noop but they did. I have two April trips with 3 out of 4 legs canceled. Iíll wait on those. No rush.

3 green
03-26-2020, 07:38 AM
Judging by all the open time for April in my category it looks like 23K is going to be a bad deal for pilots..Most of all the trips everyone rebid have already been canceled.

3 green
03-26-2020, 07:39 AM
If your rotation starts at 1900 can they assign you flying prior to your original sign in time?
thanks
No, I believe it has to start on or after your original sign in time.

3 green
03-26-2020, 07:40 AM
They should however rewrite the rotation to show a DH. Correct? They canít just leave dangling canceled pieces of it without it all connecting together into a coherent path.
You are correct, and I have seen them connecting the dots the day prior to the changes.

GogglesPisano
03-26-2020, 07:41 AM
If your rotation starts at 1900 can they assign you flying prior to your original sign in time?
thanks

Absolutely not. Hard no.

53x11
03-26-2020, 07:43 AM
If your rotation starts at 1900 can they assign you flying prior to your original sign in time?
thanks

No, unless itís simply bumping your original departure time up. I.E. No change other than making first flight segment depart up to 15 minutes earlier.

PapaMike
03-26-2020, 07:51 AM
Also of note the 23K exception from LOA20-01 is only effective for the April bid period.

To follow up just to make sure everyone understands, the LOA itself doesn't include the 12 hour callout change. This new change was in a memo from Gumm from March 18 but still only applies through the April bid period

lake
03-26-2020, 07:52 AM
That's what i figured..
Thanks to all that answered..

Scoop
03-26-2020, 08:16 AM
Just to follow up on the original thread - I did get robocalled. So you might not hear anything until the day your rotation starts or possibly a day prior for an early sign in.

Scoop

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-26-2020, 08:34 AM
Just to follow up on the original thread - I did get robocalled. So you might not hear anything until the day your rotation starts or possibly a day prior for an early sign in.

Scoop

What did the call tell you? That you had been assigned a recovery trip? That you had been placed on 23K? That it was NOOP'd and you had no ogligation?

CatDad
03-26-2020, 08:58 AM
I have a day trip today with a report of 1410 and release of 2135. The legs have been cancelled for a week. It got NOOPed a few days ago and I acknowledged. It is my day 6, having finished a 5-day yesterday, without a 30 hour rest anywhere in there. Iím home with confidence that I am a pumpkin. The way I understand this memo is they could call me at 1410 to assign me something but 12 hours would put me into tomorrow (day 7) and a also an off day. Also also, ending more than 4 hours past my scheduled release.

schwifty
03-26-2020, 09:11 AM
On the MEC page the COVID-19 Latest Information: LOA #20-01 -- COVID-19 FAQ (https://www.alpa.org/dal/-/media/DAL/Documents/Committees/Communications/COVID-19/COVID-19-20-02.pdf) says that if you deviate pre-rotation your 23.K obligation is to the airport you deviated to. Is that from the contract or the LOA? I couldn't find it in either.

dc10guy
03-26-2020, 09:19 AM
I have a day trip today with a report of 1410 and release of 2135. The legs have been cancelled for a week. It got NOOPed a few days ago and I acknowledged. It is my day 6, having finished a 5-day yesterday, without a 30 hour rest anywhere in there. Iím home with confidence that I am a pumpkin. The way I understand this memo is they could call me at 1410 to assign me something but 12 hours would put me into tomorrow (day 7) and a also an off day. Also also, ending more than 4 hours past my scheduled release.
I called scheduling about my one day NOOP and was told I have no obligation.

fishforfun
03-26-2020, 09:26 AM
I called scheduling about my one day NOOP and was told I have no obligation.

What did you have after your 1 day? Mine just got NOOPd as well but I have 2 more 1 days following it.

fishforfun
03-26-2020, 09:32 AM
What did you have after your 1 day? Mine just got NOOPd as well but I have 2 more 1 days following it.

Quoting my question and answering it as well. Just spoke to scheduling and they said with the 12 hour after original report issue there is no obligation for 1 day trips. Glad I picked up a few of them for the end of the month :D

sailingfun
03-26-2020, 10:09 AM
They should however rewrite the rotation to show a DH. Correct? They canít just leave dangling canceled pieces of it without it all connecting together into a coherent path.

Yes, they should. I hear schedulers have been working 16 hour days.

3 green
03-26-2020, 10:40 AM
I have a day trip today with a report of 1410 and release of 2135. The legs have been cancelled for a week. It got NOOPed a few days ago and I acknowledged. It is my day 6, having finished a 5-day yesterday, without a 30 hour rest anywhere in there. Iím home with confidence that I am a pumpkin. The way I understand this memo is they could call me at 1410 to assign me something but 12 hours would put me into tomorrow (day 7) and a also an off day. Also also, ending more than 4 hours past my scheduled release.
This is a precursor to what a lot of categories are going to be doing next month..Everyone will be tired of 23K by the end of April for sure.

CatDad
03-26-2020, 10:40 AM
Quoting my question and answering it as well. Just spoke to scheduling and they said with the 12 hour after original report issue there is no obligation for 1 day trips. Glad I picked up a few of them for the end of the month :D

good to know. I have a day trip prior to a 5-day next month. I was curious as to how that would work out. I think my schedule is pretty immune to over abuse. Commutable report times with releases of around 0900. Only problem is Iím most likely going to have to cover ewr flying. Will there even be any type of public transit in nyc in a few more weeks?

Abouttime2fish
03-26-2020, 10:44 AM
So, if I have a trip noop, put on 23k, then put in a recovery slip, get that trip and it noopís, Iím done right?

deltabound
03-26-2020, 11:10 AM
This is a precursor to what a lot of categories are going to be doing next month..Everyone will be tired of 23K by the end of April for sure.

On the bright side, the never ending stream of multiple in flight reroutes coming through the aircraft printer may have solved the toilet paper shortage.

3 green
03-26-2020, 12:25 PM
My trips in April that are completely canceled already have 23K on them as of today.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-26-2020, 12:26 PM
So, if I have a trip noop, put on 23k, then put in a recovery slip, get that trip and it noopís, Iím done right?

I think normally yes, but there is such a thing as Double 23K.

PWA 23.K.1.d.3 Note 2

fishforfun
03-26-2020, 12:55 PM
I think normally yes, but there is such a thing as Double 23K.

PWA 23.K.1.d.3 Note 2

Its not until the third there becomes a problem. Canít triple stamp a double stamp.

dc10guy
03-26-2020, 01:33 PM
Quoting my question and answering it as well. Just spoke to scheduling and they said with the 12 hour after original report issue there is no obligation for 1 day trips. Glad I picked up a few of them for the end of the month :D
are your one days for March.

Abouttime2fish
03-26-2020, 01:49 PM
I think normally yes, but there is such a thing as Double 23K.

PWA 23.K.1.d.3 Note 2

ive not seen any mention of double 23k being in affect, that is a very good question.

Scoop
03-26-2020, 02:45 PM
What did the call tell you? That you had been assigned a recovery trip? That you had been placed on 23K? That it was NOOP'd and you had no ogligation?

My rotation was never cancelled, just the first leg which was a red eye out of LAX. The robocall said that my rotation changed. My cancelled flight tonight was replaced with a DH to join my rotation on day 2. Day 2 however was a DH only day so I can DV8 on day 2 to be in position to fly day 3 as scheduled.................until that changes.

Scoop

fishforfun
03-26-2020, 04:50 PM
are your one days for March.

Yes, which I thought was odd that he quoted the 12 hour leash. :confused: Oh well, I was told not obligation so thatís what Iím going with. So far Iím 2/2 on single day trips I picked up. Had no idea this would happen when I did it.

hockeypilot44
03-26-2020, 05:05 PM
My biggest fear is not commuting up for a 7:30pm report due to no op and getting assigned something the next day before first commuter flight gets in. After all, they are cancelling 10-12 of my commuter flights everyday.

I'm thinking I should commute up and get a hotel. Did I read somewhere Delta will pay for that hotel?

fishforfun
03-26-2020, 05:14 PM
My biggest fear is not commuting up for a 7:30pm report due to no op and getting assigned something the next day before first commuter flight gets in. After all, they are cancelled 10-12 of my commuter flights everyday.

I'm thinking I should commute up and get a hotel. Did I read somewhere Delta will pay for that hotel?

I read that also. Just had my second single day trip NOOPd. It wasnít until Sunday. Glad they are calling this far out.

queuetip
03-26-2020, 05:54 PM
I'm thinking I should commute up and get a hotel. Did I read somewhere Delta will pay for that hotel?
Assuming your flying satisfies 23K1 requirements, Section 5E1c 1-3 may apply. I'd call and ask or maybe pilot assist can help you.

Jaww
03-26-2020, 07:32 PM
My biggest fear is not commuting up for a 7:30pm report due to no op and getting assigned something the next day before first commuter flight gets in. After all, they are cancelling 10-12 of my commuter flights everyday.

I'm thinking I should commute up and get a hotel. Did I read somewhere Delta will pay for that hotel?

Iím not happy about the new policy. I think it only screws us for longer call outs.

fishforfun
03-26-2020, 07:56 PM
Iím not happy about the new policy. I think it only screws us for longer call outs.

I thought about this as soon as it came out. Kind of gives them more time to screw you. But, considering NYC 320 had 47% 1 day trips recently it works out nicely.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 03:44 AM
I thought about this as soon as it came out. Kind of gives them more time to screw you. But, considering NYC 320 had 47% 1 day trips recently it works out nicely.

Please explain how it gives them more time to screw you? I donít think you understand how it works.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 03:45 AM
Iím not happy about the new policy. I think it only screws us for longer call outs.

Please explain this?

Jaww
03-27-2020, 04:17 AM
Please explain this?

I am now basically a reserve pilot with a 12 hour call out. There are times I will not be able to make that commute if given a 12 hour call out. This is why I donít bid reserve even when it is monetarily more beneficial.

I agree this is a majority good deal. But it isnít for me. I do not wish it changed as it helps more pilots out. I just donít like it.

Scoop
03-27-2020, 04:22 AM
I am now basically a reserve pilot with a 12 hour call out. There are times I will not be able to make that commute if given a 12 hour call out. This is why I donít bid reserve even when it is monetarily more beneficial.

I agree this is a majority good deal. But it isnít for me. I do not wish it changed as it helps more pilots out. I just donít like it.

I wouldn't sweat a 12 hour call-out at all. If scheduling assigns you a trip that you have trouble making call crew assist. With all the flight cancellations this is going to become more common.

Scoop

Jaww
03-27-2020, 04:24 AM
Please explain this?

Additionally, If I had a 1400 report I was on the hook till 2000. That was commutable and doable. Now, Iím on my phone those 12 hours and can be given anything from 0200-0800. Iím not gonna make that now with all the cancellations. So Iím commuting up anyways now in case Iím called so I can be in place. It totally negates the whole purpose of the memo. If Iím interpreting wrong, correct me.

hockeypilot44
03-27-2020, 04:33 AM
Additionally, If I had a 1400 report I was on the hook till 2000. That was commutable and doable. Now, I’m on my phone those 12 hours and can be given anything from 0200-0800. I’m not gonna make that now with all the cancellations. So I’m commuting up anyways now in case I’m called so I can be in place. It totally negates the whole purpose of the memo. If I’m interpreting wrong, correct me.

You're only on your phone 6 hours. It's 6 hours of long call essentially. I'm sure not making it due to no commuter flights isn't a big deal. They'll just PD your whole original trip.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 04:34 AM
You're only on your phone 6 hours. It's 6 hours of long call essentially.

I understand that 1400-2000 in this case. Hence trips from 0200-0800 assignable. No workie.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 04:40 AM
I am now basically a reserve pilot with a 12 hour call out. There are times I will not be able to make that commute if given a 12 hour call out. This is why I donít bid reserve even when it is monetarily more beneficial.

I agree this is a majority good deal. But it isnít for me. I do not wish it changed as it helps more pilots out. I just donít like it.

You donít understand the change at all. The company voluntarily dropped the requirement to be immediately available during the 6 hour window. They stated they would give you 12 hours notice. Nothing else changed. They could always give you a 23k assignment with 12 hours notice in that window. The only change is they canít give you one with no notice in the 6 hour window.
If however you want to keep things exactly the same you can travel to your base and sit in the airport for 6 hours. That way you wonít get screwed.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 04:45 AM
You're only on your phone 6 hours. It's 6 hours of long call essentially. I'm sure not making it due to no commuter flights isn't a big deal. They'll just PD your whole original trip.

You were always available for a long call assignment in the window. The only change is you also donít have to be immediately available at the same time.

DELTAFO
03-27-2020, 04:46 AM
My rotation was never cancelled, just the first leg which was a red eye out of LAX. The robocall said that my rotation changed. My cancelled flight tonight was replaced with a DH to join my rotation on day 2. Day 2 however was a DH only day so I can DV8 on day 2 to be in position to fly day 3 as scheduled.................until that changes.

Scoop
You can't deviate on a mid rotation DH without scheduling's approval

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 04:47 AM
You can't deviate on a mid rotation DH without scheduling's approval

Its not a mid rotation DH after the rotation was rebuilt.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 04:56 AM
You were always available for a long call assignment in the window. The only change is you also donít have to be immediately available at the same time.

I read the PWA and I didnít get that at all. I then read the dummies guide to scheduling and it spells it out better. Iím guess I was wrong, still not happy about it.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 05:00 AM
I read the PWA and I didnít get that at all. I then read the dummies guide to scheduling and it spells it out better. Iím guess I was wrong, still not happy about it.

I just donít get how you could not be happy with being able to stay home instead of sit in the pilot lounge for 6 hours.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 05:01 AM
I just donít get how you could not be happy with being able to stay home instead of sit in the pilot lounge for 6 hours.

I get that but Iím still gonna have to commute in so it doesnít matter. I canít see how you donít get that.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 05:08 AM
I get that but Iím still gonna have to commute in so it doesnít matter. I canít see how you donít get that.

This change does not force you to commute in. Keep in mind they are paying you the full value of your original trip. You would have had to commute in if your trip operated correct? I would also read the latest from the company where they state that with the reduction in flights they understand it may not be possible to have a backup flight and to contact the CPSC if there will be issues.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 05:12 AM
This change does not force you to commute in. Keep in mind they are paying you the full value of your original trip. You would have had to commute in if your trip operated correct? I would also read the latest from the company where they state that with the reduction in flights they understand it may not be possible to have a backup flight and to contact the CPSC if there will be issues.

I have no problem commuting in at 1400 for my original trip. I have no problem sitting at home 1400-2000 and listen for the phone to ring. My problem is I canít commute in for a 0200-0800 report time. Because I canít feasibly make that (tough times for most normal situation commutes) Iím planning on being a good pilot and be in place which will be coming in the day before. I hope Iím wrong on this interpretation too.

Again, this is why I donít bid reserve.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 05:30 AM
I have no problem commuting in at 1400 for my original trip. I have no problem sitting at home 1400-2000 and listen for the phone to ring. My problem is I canít commute in for a 0200-0800 report time. Because I canít feasibly make that (tough times for most normal situation commutes) Iím planning on being a good pilot and be in place which will be coming in the day before. I hope Iím wrong on this interpretation too.

Again, this is why I donít bid reserve.

^^^this^^^

snap03
03-27-2020, 06:00 AM
Can scheduling change my ewr trip into a jfk trip without my consent? I donít see my trip listed as 23k. Makes a huge difference in commute/drive. Thank you!

hockeypilot44
03-27-2020, 06:21 AM
I have no problem commuting in at 1400 for my original trip. I have no problem sitting at home 1400-2000 and listen for the phone to ring. My problem is I canít commute in for a 0200-0800 report time. Because I canít feasibly make that (tough times for most normal situation commutes) Iím planning on being a good pilot and be in place which will be coming in the day before. I hope Iím wrong on this interpretation too.

Again, this is why I donít bid reserve.

This. Will the company get us a hotel room to sit in? Is that what the LOA did? I don't really know.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 06:23 AM
I specifically bid for afternoon sign ins to commute. Now Iím forced to have morning uncommutable sign ins. Exact opposite of what I bid. A thunderstorm IROP I get but not an entire month of bidding. Surely this wasnít the intent.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 06:37 AM
I specifically bid for afternoon sign ins to commute. Now Iím forced to have morning uncommutable sign ins. Exact opposite of what I bid. A thunderstorm IROP I get but not an entire month of bidding. Surely this wasnít the intent.

They can not make you report earlier than your scheduled sign in.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-27-2020, 06:46 AM
Is there anyone smart enough to make a flow chart with pictures for the paste eaters like me?

Kind of a "Does your schedule show 23K....Yes / No" ....."have you acknowleded the new rotation...Yes / No"

GogglesPisano
03-27-2020, 06:53 AM
Let's say a rotation several days out already has a change with a 23K notation at the bottom. A live leg at the end of the rotation was changed to a DH.

1) That was their one and only chance at 23K, correct?

2) But they can still reroute after sign-in?

Jaww
03-27-2020, 06:55 AM
They can not make you report earlier than your scheduled sign in.


Dude. I know. I have been engaging you because I thought you might be "helpful." You are totally missing the crux of my point/argument. If I don't commute in normally, in this case early because of new 23K rules, I will have no flights available to make a 12 hour call out window during the entirety of the 6 hour window. I understand I can get an assignment further down the road but I am out of pocket for a good 8 hours of the morning. I doubt anybody will feel for me in crew scheduling, CPO, APC, etc as commuting is a choice. I was presenting a bad side to this change in one person's opinion.

dc10guy
03-27-2020, 07:06 AM
Dude. I know. I have been engaging you because I thought you might be "helpful." You are totally missing the crux of my point/argument. If I don't commute in normally, in this case early because of new 23K rules, I will have no flights available to make a 12 hour call out window during the entirety of the 6 hour window. I understand I can get an assignment further down the road but I am out of pocket for a good 8 hours of the morning. I doubt anybody will feel for me in crew scheduling, CPO, APC, etc as commuting is a choice. I was presenting a bad side to this change in one person's opinion.

I am in the same situation. With all the cancellations the night before you can not possibly plan.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 07:08 AM
I am in the same situation. With all the cancellations the night before you can not possibly plan.

Thanks. I wasn't looking for sympathy just validation that I was thinking correctly. Bad situation, totally legit, but I still don't have to like it.

dc10guy
03-27-2020, 07:09 AM
You're only on your phone 6 hours. It's 6 hours of long call essentially. I'm sure not making it due to no commuter flights isn't a big deal. They'll just PD your whole original trip.

if they PD the trip, then you donít get paid. There is a risen why people donít bid reserve. Now everyone is on reserve.

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 07:17 AM
Dude. I know. I have been engaging you because I thought you might be "helpful." You are totally missing the crux of my point/argument. If I don't commute in normally, in this case early because of new 23K rules, I will have no flights available to make a 12 hour call out window during the entirety of the 6 hour window. I understand I can get an assignment further down the road but I am out of pocket for a good 8 hours of the morning. I doubt anybody will feel for me in crew scheduling, CPO, APC, etc as commuting is a choice. I was presenting a bad side to this change in one person's opinion.

Thatís the part I donít get. You keep saying this change. The only thing the change did was release you from having to be promptly available the first 6 hours. NOT ONE OTHER THING CHANGED
It could not have caused you any harm.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 07:23 AM
Thatís the part I donít get. You keep saying this change. The only thing the change did was release you from having to be promptly available the first 6 hours. NOT ONE OTHER THING CHANGED
It could not have caused you any harm.

I'M ON RESERVE THE WHOLE MONTH! That is the change dude. Its not a one off because of some unpredictable summer thunderstorm. They took all all bids and trashed them to put us on reserve. Now because of my bid for commutability I can't commute. You aren't listening. I get what you are saying and you're correct. But what we are saying is this is not sustainable for some people.

PapaMike
03-27-2020, 07:28 AM
I'M ON RESERVE THE WHOLE MONTH! That is the change dude. Its not a one off because of some unpredictable summer thunderstorm. They took all all bids and trashed them to put us on reserve. Now because of my bid for commutability I can't commute. You aren't listening. I get what you are saying and you're correct. But what we are saying is this is not sustainable for some people.


This new policy has nothing to do with this though. I think that's where sailing's heartburn is coming from.

The 12 hour call-out is only a benefit.

If this rule didn't change for the better you would be worse off. Still on reserve AND sitting in base being promptly available for 6 hours.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 07:33 AM
This new policy has nothing to do with this though. I think that's where sailing's heartburn is coming from.

The 12 hour call-out is only a benefit.

If this rule didn't change for the better you would be worse off. Still on reserve AND sitting in base being promptly available for 6 hours.

I admitted I had that wrong like 5 posts ago. He keeps bringing that up even after I interpreted it wrong. It still doesnít change the fact a whole month of 23K probably was not how it was intended to be used.

PapaMike
03-27-2020, 07:42 AM
What is the alternative? Is this not irregular operations?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Your trips are cancelling and they increased the call-out time for reassignments.

What else do you want? No obligation whatsoever?

Aviator147
03-27-2020, 07:52 AM
What is the alternative? Is this not irregular operations?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Your trips are cancelling and they increased the call-out time for reassignments.

What else do you want? No obligation whatsoever?


He's free to drop recovery obligation with concurrence of Crew Scheduling for NO PAY on the trip.

Kjazz130
03-27-2020, 08:00 AM
I admitted I had that wrong like 5 posts ago. He keeps bringing that up even after I interpreted it wrong. It still doesnít change the fact a whole month of 23K probably was not how it was intended to be used.

Jaww, Iím a commuter too and I understand your situation. Donít forget the ability to submit a recovery slip. I had a 4 day trip on 13 Apr noop yesterday. I put in a recovery slip for a commutable 2 day during the footprint and got it. 4 days of pay for a 2 day. Sorry if you already knew this. Just throwing it out there in case.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 08:05 AM
Jaww, Iím a commuter too and I understand your situation. Donít forget the ability to submit a recovery slip. I had a 4 day trip on 13 Apr noop yesterday. I put in a recovery slip for a commutable 2 day during the footprint and got it. 4 days of pay for a 2 day. Sorry if you already knew this. Just throwing it out there in case.

Thanks for the advice. That is definitely the plan. I know Iím shouting at clouds. Itís better than no paycheck (perspective) but it makes homelife a little less optimum. Commuting is a choice...

konabear
03-27-2020, 08:07 AM
I had a 2-day trip starting on the 30th that got noopíd last week. I put in a recovery slip for a 3-day trip also starting on the 30th and was awarded it. The trip had 2 legs on day 1, a 46-hour SJD layover, DH back to base on day 3. Now the leg to SJD has been cancelled. After I fly leg one am I basically a reserve pilot for the rest of the 3 days? Or, since my original trip was only a 2-day, can they only use me for two days?

Kjazz130
03-27-2020, 08:13 AM
I had a 2-day trip starting on the 30th that got noopíd last week. I put in a recovery slip for a 3-day trip also starting on the 30th and was awarded it. The trip had 2 legs on day 1, a 46-hour SJD layover, DH back to base on day 3. Now the leg to SJD has been cancelled. After I fly leg one am I basically a reserve pilot for the rest of the 3 days? Or, since my original trip was only a 2-day, can they only use me for two days?

I am not a contract ninja but I think you have been rerouted prior to the first airborne leg and the new rotation should be noopíd and you should have no recovery obligation and you should be pay protected. Iím sure someone smarter than me will chime in to confirm or refute my statement.

queuetip
03-27-2020, 10:25 AM
Is it still 23K if they just cancel your trip one day at a time? Like JAWW above I'm a commuter and I got into position for a sign in that didn't happen. Then they cancelled the whole day. Now they've got me reporting to JFK instead of LGA (not as bad as EWR but still much less convenient for me). The next trip that starts the next day is similar, they've cancelled my first two legs but left the last leg on there so I've got to be in position. I've got no protection if they start cancelling one leg at a time, I just have to sit here in NYC waiting to be used as a reserve except worse because I don't have a RAW score. The company is definitely abusing the intent of 23K, and it's only going to get worse in April.

I might be mistaken, but don't the guys at United get released with pay if a trip isn't put on their schedule with a DEPARTURE time within four hours of their original schedule?

hockeypilot44
03-27-2020, 10:53 AM
The union should put out some more guidance on 23k. I know they have in the past, but a flow chart would be nice.

Found scheduling alert 16-03 from 2016. I guess that still applies.

10Basscat
03-27-2020, 10:55 AM
Quick question if anyone can help. I had a 4 day trip 29 Mar-1 April worth 22:10. Yesterday the trip changed to a 3 day. My time card shows 22:10 scheduled but only 15:45 for pay time and credit. Am I pay protected for the 22:10 of the original trip? I would certainly hope so but the time card is making me wonder.

queuetip
03-27-2020, 10:56 AM
You are pay protected, just remember that all the credit for the trip will be paid on 1 April, or the next bid period. It'll also change the amount that you're able to pick up next month if it increased your credit for April.

10Basscat
03-27-2020, 11:00 AM
Thank you. Shouldnít that credit already show on my April time card though?

DARR31
03-27-2020, 11:04 AM
This I think was answered here already, but I will ask again for clarification.

I had a 1 day trip on Monday. It went NOOP and now I am on 23K for the trip. Original show time was 1410 with a release of 2210. They still show me with a release of 2210. With this new 12 hrs, can they still use me and if so, do I need to put in anything for recovery flying or just leave it as is. Also if they do use me, is it true they have to stick to the original release time, plus up to 4 hrs after but cannot go into the next day? Just trying to figure it out since I have a doc app the next day.

Thanks!

exitrow
03-27-2020, 11:19 AM
Thank you. Shouldnít that credit already show on my April time card though?
I had something similar happen last week. 4 day turned into a 2 day, had the CP office fix it since scheduling is too swamped. My trip this week has the same problem, but still shows open on the time card. Giving it a couple days to see if they correct. If not I'll just stop in the CPO before the next trip for them to fix.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 11:30 AM
This I think was answered here already, but I will ask again for clarification.

I had a 1 day trip on Monday. It went NOOP and now I am on 23K for the trip. Original show time was 1410 with a release of 2210. They still show me with a release of 2210. With this new 12 hrs, can they still use me and if so, do I need to put in anything for recovery flying or just leave it as is. Also if they do use me, is it true they have to stick to the original release time, plus up to 4 hrs after but cannot go into the next day? Just trying to figure it out since I have a doc app the next day.

Thanks!

1 day trips with the 12 hour call out make you a pumpkin instantly. But, you can call crew sked and they will tell you your obligation if you have any.

As hockey stated we need to beef up the union in this area. We need a hotline or something to review rotations and legality. I would be willing to volunteer to do this if someone would be willing to teach me the fine points of section 23.

hockeypilot44
03-27-2020, 11:45 AM
I had a 4 day with a day off, then a 2 day. They both no-oped. Can I pick up a 3 day recovery slip that covers both trips and keep my pay? Does that slip have to be worth 50 percent of the combined rotations?

Do trips picked up via recovery slip have to remain in the footprint? I have a lot of questions. Cancelling 1 trip seems pretty simple, but cancelling a whole month is uncharted territory. That is what just happened to me and I assume everyone else. Also my time card went to 0. I assume it will go back up.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 11:48 AM
I had a 4 day with a day off, then a 2 day. They both no-oped. Can I pick up a 3 day recovery slip that covers both trips and keep my pay? Does that slip have to be worth 50 percent of the combined rotations?

Do trips picked up via recovery slip have to remain in the footprint? I have a lot of questions. Cancelling 1 trip seems pretty simple, but cancelling a whole month is uncharted territory. That is what just happened to me and I assume everyone else. Also my time card went to 0. I assume it will go back up.

What fleet? Mine (320) is holding steady and only canceling on my schedule about 1-2 days out even though I can see in delta net they are cancelled. But all of April is good to go so far.

dc10guy
03-27-2020, 12:03 PM
Do we get a hotel if trip is NOOP ? Ie. commute in to set for 23k and last flight home is cancelled or gone. I thought I read it. Can not find it again.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 12:42 PM
Do we get a hotel if trip is NOOP ? Ie. commute in to set for 23k and last flight home is cancelled or gone. I thought I read it. Can not find it again.

I read it also. Itís either in an LOA or the PWA.

53x11
03-27-2020, 12:49 PM
Itís in LOA 20-01

53x11
03-27-2020, 12:52 PM
Note: A pilot who incurs a recovery obligation resulting from temporary changes to Section 23.K.1. Exception under this LOA will be provided:

1. Round Trip positive space on-line transportation to their base for such recovery period, and
2. Single-occupancy hotel accommodations if the pilot is not assigned a rotation during such recovery period and is unable to commute home.

53x11
03-27-2020, 12:55 PM
Also, remember this part of the LOA is for the April bid period only.

hockeypilot44
03-27-2020, 01:03 PM
What fleet? Mine (320) is holding steady and only canceling on my schedule about 1-2 days out even though I can see in delta net they are cancelled. But all of April is good to go so far.

737. Whole schedule no-oped except last trip.

ERflyer
03-27-2020, 01:25 PM
It seems they are not NOOPing some trips, even though all legs are canceled, and making people commute in to sign in for the trip. After sign in they NOOP the trip. This avoids placing people on 23K and giving them the 12 hour call out. It makes them sit 6 hour short call in base instead. Anyone else heard of this?

waldo135
03-27-2020, 02:28 PM
I have no problem commuting in at 1400 for my original trip. I have no problem sitting at home 1400-2000 and listen for the phone to ring. My problem is I canít commute in for a 0200-0800 report time. Because I canít feasibly make that (tough times for most normal situation commutes) Iím planning on being a good pilot and be in place which will be coming in the day before. I hope Iím wrong on this interpretation too.

Again, this is why I donít bid reserve.
Then donít acknowledge the NOOP. You then are on the hook at the airport for the first 6 hours. Problem solved. (I think)

hockeypilot44
03-27-2020, 02:38 PM
It seems they are not NOOPing some trips, even though all legs are canceled, and making people commute in to sign in for the trip. After sign in they NOOP the trip. This avoids placing people on 23K and giving them the 12 hour call out. It makes them sit 6 hour short call in base instead. Anyone else heard of this?

Most of my trips in APR already 23k.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 02:54 PM
Most of my trips in APR already 23k.

I believe the answer is you get paid for the greater of the 2. To me, WSing on a 23k trip is picking your poison to avoid being assigned some turd. But, and thatís a sir mix a lot size but, I am not well versed in section 23 in general.

GogglesPisano
03-27-2020, 03:42 PM
How many times can they change your future rotation? I thought 23K was a 1-shot deal.

Kjazz130
03-27-2020, 03:57 PM
How many times can they change your future rotation? I thought 23K was a 1-shot deal.

they can 23k your rotation and assign you a recovery trip. If they alter the recovery trip prior to the first airborne leg then you have no recovery obligation.

Kjazz130
03-27-2020, 03:59 PM
I believe the answer is you get paid for the greater of the 2. To me, WSing on a 23k trip is picking your poison to avoid being assigned some turd. But, and thatís a sir mix a lot size but, I am not well versed in section 23 in general.

a 23k trip is subject to recovery assignment. If you want to pick your poison submit a recovery slip for a trip that is at least 50% of the original trip. If that trip is cancelled then you can WS or GS over that and get paid double.

GogglesPisano
03-27-2020, 04:14 PM
they can 23k your rotation and assign you a recovery trip. If they alter the recovery trip prior to the first airborne leg then you have no recovery obligation.

My future rotation has been changed twice over the past week. Does this mean I should call them on it? Weíre not talking ďrecovery obligation.Ē This is days away.

How many changes can they make to a rotation that is days away?

3 green
03-27-2020, 04:53 PM
My future rotation has been changed twice over the past week. Does this mean I should call them on it? Weíre not talking ďrecovery obligation.Ē This is days away.

How many changes can they make to a rotation that is days away?
Only single 23K is allowed. Any double 23K is not allowed except in weather irops where your city is listed allowing the double 23K..i think anyone who gets double 23K now can call scheduling and tell them it's illegal and they will remove the rotation and pay you.. This would be a good issue for ALPA to send info out telling us how to handle it

Kjazz130
03-27-2020, 05:02 PM
My future rotation has been changed twice over the past week. Does this mean I should call them on it? Weíre not talking ďrecovery obligation.Ē This is days away.

How many changes can they make to a rotation that is days away?

Call CS first. If you donít get it fixed ask for a supervisor. Then call ALPA.

site 23K and 23L.

You can mention you were given 23k recovery and now your recovery rotation has been altered prior to the first airborne leg.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 05:03 PM
Only single 23K is allowed. Any double 23K is not allowed except in weather irops where your city is listed allowing the double 23K..i think anyone who gets double 23K now can call scheduling and tell them it's illegal and they will remove the rotation and pay you.. This would be a good issue for ALPA to send info out telling us how to handle it

Ive had a reroute in the middle already for a trip 3 days away. Does that count as #1? Because now the new stuff is showing legs cancelled.

hockeypilot44
03-27-2020, 05:11 PM
Ive had a reroute in the middle already for a trip 3 days away. Does that count as #1? Because now the new stuff is showing legs cancelled.

No. 23k only applies to first leg changes.

Kjazz130
03-27-2020, 05:12 PM
Ive had a reroute in the middle already for a trip 3 days away. Does that count as #1? Because now the new stuff is showing legs cancelled.

Its not a 23k until they put it on your schedule. If they donít put it on your schedule ahead of time you have two choices, call them on it ahead of time or show at report time and be on call for 6 hours.

No matter what you cannot be rerouted prior to the first airborne departure. If the first leg is cancelled or changed the rotation should be noopíd. They can noop it early or at report time.

3 green
03-27-2020, 05:14 PM
Ive had a reroute in the middle already for a trip 3 days away. Does that count as #1? Because now the new stuff is showing legs cancelled.
I think so. If they try to assign new flying now on your canceled legs that would be double 23k, but call ALPA to make sure.. They could just give you a domicile layover and then you pick up the rest of the trip

sailingfun
03-27-2020, 05:36 PM
Its not a 23k until they put it on your schedule. If they donít put it on your schedule ahead of time you have two choices, call them on it ahead of time or show at report time and be on call for 6 hours.

No matter what you cannot be rerouted prior to the first airborne departure. If the first leg is cancelled or changed the rotation should be noopíd. They can noop it early or at report time.

There is no requirement to noop a rotation because the first leg is cancelled.

ERflyer
03-27-2020, 05:51 PM
There is no requirement to noop a rotation because the first leg is cancelled.

How about 3 out of 4 legs in a rotation and itís the first 3 canceled?

Kjazz130
03-27-2020, 05:54 PM
There is no requirement to noop a rotation because the first leg is cancelled.

Youíre right! There are too many reasons that it might not be noopíd but in the current cases most of them have to be noopíd.

attn all, please read 23G-23L for all the stipulations. In all cases call CS and ask. If you donít feel like you have gotten an appropriate answer speak to a supervisor. If you still donít feel right about it call ALPA.

GogglesPisano
03-27-2020, 06:30 PM
Thanks Kjazz.

Now more than ever DALPA needs to put out a Scheduling Alert about 23K ó with examples.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-27-2020, 07:33 PM
Thanks Kjazz.

Now more than ever DALPA needs to put out a Scheduling Alert about 23K ó with examples.

There have been two scheduling alerts in the last two months covering 23K...20-02 and 20-07.

Jaww
03-27-2020, 07:36 PM
There have been two scheduling alerts in the last two months covering 23K...20-02 and 20-07.

I apparently need pictures.

DeadHead
03-28-2020, 03:55 AM
So if one had a 4 day 21:00 trip that got 23K, he/she could put in a recovery slip for a two-day 10:30 (50% original rotation) and subsequently would be paid the original 21:00 hours (original trip credit)?

Am I understanding that correctly?

sailingfun
03-28-2020, 04:00 AM
So if one had a 4 day 21:00 trip that got 23K, he/she could put in a recovery slip for a two-day 10:30 (50% original rotation) and subsequently would be paid the original 21:00 hours (original trip credit)?

Am I understanding that correctly?

Yes, filler

DeadHead
03-28-2020, 04:04 AM
Yes, filler

thanks!

filler

Scoop
03-28-2020, 04:40 AM
Thank you. Shouldnít that credit already show on my April time card though?

I am pretty sure that credit does not show/change until the trip is finished becasue while on your trip credit is always subject to be changing. Not sure if this is by design but it has always happened that way for me.

Scoop

hockeypilot44
03-28-2020, 05:06 AM
So if one had a 4 day 21:00 trip that got 23K, he/she could put in a recovery slip for a two-day 10:30 (50% original rotation) and subsequently would be paid the original 21:00 hours (original trip credit)?

Am I understanding that correctly?

Yes and that 2 day can be anywhere in the bid period. It doesn't have to be on the same days as your 23k'd trip. I figured it out.

fishforfun
03-28-2020, 07:16 AM
Can we GS over the foot print of a 23k trip on our schedule?

GogglesPisano
03-28-2020, 07:25 AM
There have been two scheduling alerts in the last two months covering 23K...20-02 and 20-07.

Neither of those are answering the myriad questions we're seeing on this thread: Such as multiple changes to a rotation under 23K days in advance.

Corndog
03-28-2020, 07:35 AM
One for the Gurus:

I have a 23k that starts on the 31st and goes through the 3rd. April is reserve. If I pick up a recovery 5 day that is worth 5 hours more and starts on the 30th. Will I get credited the surplus? If so, which month? Thanks

Kjazz130
03-28-2020, 07:41 AM
One for the Gurus:

I have a 23k that starts on the 31st and goes through the 3rd. April is reserve. If I pick up a recovery 5 day that is worth 5 hours more and starts on the 30th. Will I get credited the surplus? If so, which month? Thanks

You would have to compare the way the time is split on your time card now with the way the time is split on the trip in open time that you want to pick up.

Corndog
03-28-2020, 07:46 AM
You would have to compare the way the time is split on your time card now with the way the time is split on the trip in open time that you want to pick up.

Ok so if 3:15 of the original 23k 4day is in March, and 10:30 of the recovery 5 day is in March; Iíll get the difference of credit in March and the original value of recovery towards reserve guarantee in April. Does that sound right?

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-28-2020, 09:11 AM
Neither of those are answering the myriad questions we're seeing on this thread: Such as multiple changes to a rotation under 23K days in advance.

Scheds can only make one change to original rotation prior to report...the change 1 becomes the 23K recovery rotation. If they change that rotation, Itís a violation of the PWA because we arenít under the double 23K rule. If you call Scheds and they wonít make adjustments, Im 99% sure itís a fly now grieve later item. Email info to DALPA scheduling committee. They will make sure you get paid correctly and the pilot that was passed over for a WS/GS gets paid as well.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-28-2020, 09:13 AM
Can we GS over the foot print of a 23k trip on our schedule?

Yes if the rotation has just been NOOP, but no if you still have the 23K recovery obligation.

fishforfun
03-28-2020, 09:56 AM
Yes if the rotation has just been NOOP, but no if you still have the 23K recovery obligation.

Is it possible to be in a situation that 3 one day trips in a row have been NOOPd, 23k placed on them but have no recovery obligation? I was told by the schedulers that because itís a day trip I am unable to be useful according to 23k rules now. Iím seeing a couple green slips in my category but havenít been called.

GogglesPisano
03-28-2020, 09:57 AM
Scheds can only make one change to original rotation prior to report...the change 1 becomes the 23K recovery rotation. If they change that rotation, Itís a violation of the PWA because we arenít under the double 23K rule. If you call Scheds and they wonít make adjustments, Im 99% sure itís a fly now grieve later item. Email info to DALPA scheduling committee. They will make sure you get paid correctly and the pilot that was passed over for a WS/GS gets paid as well.

Thanks, DWC. I can't get through to scheduling. I'm not going to spend all day on hold -- after 30m the recording just change to constant ringing. I have sent a DALPA Scheduling Form in. Wait and see next month's timecard.

Jaww
03-28-2020, 10:02 AM
Iím in a similar situation. Had a change in the middle the other day. Now Iíve had a day 1 leg 1 change. Not sure about that.

freezingflyboy
03-28-2020, 10:45 AM
Youíre right! There are too many reasons that it might not be noopíd but in the current cases most of them have to be noopíd.

attn all, please read 23G-23L for all the stipulations. In all cases call CS and ask. If you donít feel like you have gotten an appropriate answer speak to a supervisor. If you still donít feel right about it call ALPA.

Here's a dumb noob question: I have multiple trips in April where all flying on the first day or two of the trip is cancelled but there still legs that say "LEG TIMES DO NOT MATCH" but none of them have been NOOP'd or show 23K. I assume some of that will change as we get into April and there is more clarity on the schedule. But if nothing changes, what's my obligation? Am I still required to be available at report time just to call CS and ask "now what?" and expect to be assigned 23K? Is it considered RR territory at that point? If I commute to base and then don't operate for an entire day, am I entitled to a hotel room or am I on my own? So many Q's and very few A's that I've been able to devine out of the contract.

GogglesPisano
03-28-2020, 11:06 AM
Update: It was worth being on hold for an hour. Rotation dropped with no recovery obligation.

If you see more than one adjustment to an upcoming rotation, it's worth the call.

Jaww
03-28-2020, 11:22 AM
Update: It was worth being on hold for an hour. Rotation dropped with no recovery obligation.

If you see more than one adjustment to an upcoming rotation, it's worth the call.

Great advice, just did the same and have no obligation.

Kjazz130
03-28-2020, 11:23 AM
Ok so if 3:15 of the original 23k 4day is in March, and 10:30 of the recovery 5 day is in March; Iíll get the difference of credit in March and the original value of recovery towards reserve guarantee in April. Does that sound right?

That sounds correct.

Kjazz130
03-28-2020, 11:27 AM
Here's a dumb noob question: I have multiple trips in April where all flying on the first day or two of the trip is cancelled but there still legs that say "LEG TIMES DO NOT MATCH" but none of them have been NOOP'd or show 23K. I assume some of that will change as we get into April and there is more clarity on the schedule. But if nothing changes, what's my obligation? Am I still required to be available at report time just to call CS and ask "now what?" and expect to be assigned 23K? Is it considered RR territory at that point? If I commute to base and then don't operate for an entire day, am I entitled to a hotel room or am I on my own? So many Q's and very few A's that I've been able to devine out of the contract.

I have the same situation. Two have been noopíd with recovery, the other two have not yet. Just waiting to see. But like Googles said watch for multiple changes because that means no obligation. If they donít 23k it before report then you are on LC for 6 hours after report. I think the hotel is provided but I think there is a time limit. Might only apply for March bid period. Canít remember.

Jaww
03-28-2020, 02:52 PM
Update: It was worth being on hold for an hour. Rotation dropped with no recovery obligation.

If you see more than one adjustment to an upcoming rotation, it's worth the call.

what does your time card show? He said on the phone no recovery obligation but the original trio footpeint is there with 23K on my sked?

Yoohoo1
03-28-2020, 03:32 PM
I have a trip March 31 through April 3. I received a CNO message about a trip change - the first turn of the trip on 3/31 is still intact but everything else disappeared - no 23K listed. I am assuming I am pay protected but it happened a couple days ago and there is nothing reflected on March or April time card except for the intact turn. Any ideas on pay protection and recovery?

GogglesPisano
03-28-2020, 03:39 PM
what does your time card show? He said on the phone no recovery obligation but the original trio footpeint is there with 23K on my sked?

My timecard reflects pay and credit for the original rotation.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-28-2020, 03:40 PM
Is it possible to be in a situation that 3 one day trips in a row have been NOOPd, 23k placed on them but have no recovery obligation? I was told by the schedulers that because itís a day trip I am unable to be useful according to 23k rules now. Iím seeing a couple green slips in my category but havenít been called.

Yes, possible.

'23Kí is only a pay code, not an indication of whether you have a recovery obligation or not

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-28-2020, 03:43 PM
Here's a dumb noob question: I have multiple trips in April where all flying on the first day or two of the trip is cancelled but there still legs that say "LEG TIMES DO NOT MATCH" but none of them have been NOOP'd or show 23K. I assume some of that will change as we get into April and there is more clarity on the schedule. But if nothing changes, what's my obligation? Am I still required to be available at report time just to call CS and ask "now what?" and expect to be assigned 23K? Is it considered RR territory at that point? If I commute to base and then don't operate for an entire day, am I entitled to a hotel room or am I on my own? So many Q's and very few A's that I've been able to devine out of the contract.

If your rotation isnít NOOPíd, or if itís NOOPíd, but you choose not to acknowledge it, then you must report as scheduled. Otherwise, if your rotation is NOOPíd and youíre properly notified and acknowledge, then PWA 23 K.1.a.-c. apply (to include the 12-hour callout change from the LOA).

Jaww
03-28-2020, 03:47 PM
My timecard reflects pay and credit for the original rotation.

cool. Mine did too but when I originally looked I forgot it was a carry in trip and it threw me off. Thanks!

fishforfun
03-28-2020, 04:13 PM
Yes, possible.

'23Kí is only a pay code, not an indication of whether you have a recovery obligation or not

So would I not be eligible for GSs?

edit: I donít know why this is bolding the quote.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-28-2020, 04:22 PM
So would I not be eligible for GSs?

edit: I donít know why this is bolding the quote.

Only way to know if you have the recovery obligation or not is either call CS or the Delta ALPA Scheduling Committee. Unfortunately we pilots donít have access to the recovery roster via iCrew.

fishforfun
03-28-2020, 04:25 PM
Only way to know if you have the recovery obligation or not is either call CS or the Delta ALPA Scheduling Committee. Unfortunately we pilots donít have access to the recovery roster via iCrew.

Crew sked said no recovery obligation but I didnít get a call for GSs that went out.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-28-2020, 04:36 PM
Crew sked said no recovery obligation but I didnít get a call for GSs that went out.

First I would put the GS rotation in question into the Rules Auditor (iCrew > Schedules > PCS > Swap with Pot > Rules Auditor) to check for legality / conflicts If nothing shows up, then I would call scheduling and ask. I believe they have up to 2 hours prior to show to correct the mistake.

hockeypilot44
03-28-2020, 05:42 PM
Scheds can only make one change to original rotation prior to report...the change 1 becomes the 23K recovery rotation. If they change that rotation, Itís a violation of the PWA because we arenít under the double 23K rule. If you call Scheds and they wonít make adjustments, Im 99% sure itís a fly now grieve later item. Email info to DALPA scheduling committee. They will make sure you get paid correctly and the pilot that was passed over for a WS/GS gets paid as well.

What about if the first legs cancel? Can they deadhead you into flying remaining legs on a recovery trip?

fishforfun
03-28-2020, 06:05 PM
First I would put the GS rotation in question into the Rules Auditor (iCrew > Schedules > PCS > Swap with Pot > Rules Auditor) to check for legality / conflicts If nothing shows up, then I would call scheduling and ask. I believe they have up to 2 hours prior to show to correct the mistake.

Thanks, will do.

hockeypilot44
03-28-2020, 07:27 PM
My whole schedule was no op'd. I put in r (http://i.viglink.com/?key=481c1e0bb7406ee862f1f8858ec6342e&insertId=f3a67be3b8f32440&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k8che12w0100a0tt000MAhrq1p7zt&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fnew reply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26noquote%3D1%26p%3D3015 551&v=1&iid=f3a67be3b8f32440&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.outdoorsy.com%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fdel ta%2F128542-23k-recovery-questions-thread-16.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=%3Cspan%3Erv%3C%2Fspan%3E)ecovery slips and picked up more trips. Those trips have cancelled legs on them now that they are on my schedule. Are they allowed to change them these new rotations or will they just drop them with no more obligations? I'm obviously a commuter. The union documents don't go nearly deep enough. Of course this situation is previously unprecedented.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-28-2020, 09:35 PM
My whole schedule was no op'd. I put in r (http://i.viglink.com/?key=481c1e0bb7406ee862f1f8858ec6342e&insertId=f3a67be3b8f32440&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k8che12w0100a0tt000MAhrq1p7zt&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fnew reply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26noquote%3D1%26p%3D3015 551&v=1&iid=f3a67be3b8f32440&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.outdoorsy.com%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fdel ta%2F128542-23k-recovery-questions-thread-16.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=%3Cspan%3Erv%3C%2Fspan%3E)ecovery slips and picked up more trips. Those trips have cancelled legs on them now that they are on my schedule. Are they allowed to change them these new rotations or will they just drop them with no more obligations? I'm obviously a commuter. The union documents don't go nearly deep enough. Of course this situation is previously unprecedented.

Not a scheduling SME, but my understanding is that they can not make changes / NOOP your recovery slip trips unless we are under double 23K, which we are not.

MoonShot
03-29-2020, 03:47 AM
My whole schedule was no op'd. I put in r (http://i.viglink.com/?key=481c1e0bb7406ee862f1f8858ec6342e&insertId=f3a67be3b8f32440&type=L&exp=-1%3Ana%3A0&libId=k8che12w0100a0tt000MAhrq1p7zt&loc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fnew reply.php%3Fdo%3Dnewreply%26noquote%3D1%26p%3D3015 551&v=1&iid=f3a67be3b8f32440&opt=true&out=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.outdoorsy.com%2F&ref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.airlinepilotforums.com%2Fdel ta%2F128542-23k-recovery-questions-thread-16.html&title=Airline%20Pilot%20Central%20Forums%20-%20Reply%20to%20Topic&txt=%3Cspan%3Erv%3C%2Fspan%3E)ecovery slips and picked up more trips. Those trips have cancelled legs on them now that they are on my schedule. Are they allowed to change them these new rotations or will they just drop them with no more obligations? I'm obviously a commuter. The union documents don't go nearly deep enough. Of course this situation is previously unprecedented.

I'm in the same boat. I've already had one of the recovery trips totally cancel. It says 23k by the trip but according to the union, I've met my recovery obligation. I'm going to wait a few days and ask why 23k is on my schedule next to my recovery trip. I'm hoping my two other recovery slips do the same thing since they have most of the legs canceled. As far as I can tell, I've met the recovery obligation and we aren't subject to double 23k.

3 green
03-29-2020, 03:58 AM
I'm in the same boat. I've already had one of the recovery trips totally cancel. It says 23k by the trip but according to the union, I've met my recovery obligation. I'm going to wait a few days and ask why 23k is on my schedule next to my recovery trip. I'm hoping my two other recovery slips do the same thing since they have most of the legs canceled. As far as I can tell, I've met the recovery obligation and we aren't subject to double 23k.

You should have an easy month in April. Double 23K is not allowed so they will have to remove those rotations and pay you with no recovery obligations.

fishforfun
03-29-2020, 04:26 AM
You should have an easy month in April. Double 23K is not allowed so they will have to remove those rotations and pay you with no recovery obligations.

Oh, this is going to be fun to watch.....

hockeypilot44
03-29-2020, 05:42 AM
I know we can't be double 23k'd. Can you be 23k'd, then rerouted on new rotation after the first leg? Is this reroute allowed to happen before sign-in? If the first half of the trip cancels, can they deadhead you to fly the rest of the trip?

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-29-2020, 06:23 AM
First I would put the GS rotation in question into the Rules Auditor (iCrew > Schedules > PCS > Swap with Pot > Rules Auditor) to check for legality / conflicts If nothing shows up, then I would call scheduling and ask. I believe they have up to 2 hours prior to show to correct the mistake.

Thanks, will do.

So what was the outcome? Was there a legality issue?

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-29-2020, 06:31 AM
I know we can't be double 23k'd. Can you be 23k'd, then rerouted on new rotation after the first leg? Is this reroute allowed to happen before sign-in? If the first half of the trip cancels, can they deadhead you to fly the rest of the trip?

Double 23K is only allowed for scenarios covered in 23.K.1.d.3 Note two

Any rotation, including 23K'd rotations can be rerouted IAW 23.L

Re-route prior to airborne first leg are only allowed under the situations described in 23.L.2.a Exception

fishforfun
03-29-2020, 07:40 AM
So what was the outcome? Was there a legality issue?

Its not letting me view trips in the past. Only today or future.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-29-2020, 07:49 AM
Its not letting me view tris in the past. Only today or future.

Forgot about that...I know DALPA Sched Committee wants you to first call crew scheds and get their answer first to see what they say, but not sure they have the time for that right now. I would just email Sched committee with the details and let them research it.

fishforfun
03-29-2020, 07:56 AM
Forgot about that...I know DALPA Sched Committee wants you to first call crew scheds and get their answer first to see what they say, but not sure they have the time for that right now. I would just email Sched committee with the details and let them research it.

Yeah, itís a low priority. I looked at the details closer and itís not something I would have accepted anyway. But I just found it odd that I wasnít getting calls.

hockeypilot44
03-29-2020, 08:40 AM
I know we can't be double 23k'd. Can you be 23k'd, then rerouted on new rotation after the first leg? Is this reroute allowed to happen before sign-If the first half of the trip cancels, can they deadhead you to fly the rest of the trip?


Is it 23k or reroute if first leg cancels and they deadhead you back onto rotation?

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-29-2020, 08:50 AM
I know we can't be double 23k'd. Can you be 23k'd, then rerouted on new rotation after the first leg? Is this reroute allowed to happen before sign-If the first half of the trip cancels, can they deadhead you to fly the rest of the trip?


Is it 23k or reroute if first leg cancels and they deadhead you back onto rotation?

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/3015839-post159.html

surfer1212
03-29-2020, 09:44 AM
Sorry if this scenario has already been addressed, but I didnít feel like digging through 17 pages. My originally awarded pairing was a 5 day with 26hrs of credit. The first 3 days was a GUA layover followed by 2 days of domestic. GUA was removed, and they basically changed the pairing to a 2 day trip with credit of 13hrs. Eventually that canceled as well, and even though it is showing 23k on all 5 days, the credit is only showing the adjusted 13hrs. I should still be getting paid the original 26hrs, correct? Thanks for the help.

Jaww
03-29-2020, 09:46 AM
Sorry if this scenario has already been addressed, but I didnít feel like digging through 17 pages. My originally awarded pairing was a 5 day with 26hrs of credit. The first 3 days was a GUA layover followed by 2 days of domestic. GUA was removed, and they basically changed the pairing to a 2 day trip with credit of 13hrs. Eventually that canceled as well, and even though it is showing 23k on all 5 days, the credit is only showing the adjusted 13hrs. I should still be getting paid the original 26hrs, correct? Thanks for the help.

Yes, youíre pay protected. Give it a few days and check time card.

dashdriver44
03-29-2020, 10:26 AM
3 out of my 4 trips NOOP with 23k recovery. The one trip I still have has every leg cancelled except for the first two. The first two are actually leaving earlier than what I was awarded. It says schedule times do not match. I'm trying to figure out what the plan is here? I know I cant show earlier than my original show time. Any thoughts?

hockeypilot44
03-29-2020, 10:33 AM
3 out of my 4 trips NOOP with 23k recovery. The one trip I still have has every leg cancelled except for the first two. The first two are actually leaving earlier than what I was awarded. It says schedule times do not match. I'm trying to figure out what the plan is here? I know I cant show earlier than my original show time. Any thoughts?

Call in sick.

Omar 111
03-29-2020, 10:52 AM
Anyone had a 23k trip that got back outside of 4 hours of original trip? I have a 3 day today that was assigned a 2 day 23k tomorrow. New trip ends with a double deadhead back to base at 2300; however, both deadheads have less than 15 min to make the flights. Seems quite possible we will miss at least one of these flights, and both are the last flights out of those stations. Wondering how this is handled pay wise, since there seems to be no examples in Sections 4 or 23. Thanks.

hockeypilot44
03-29-2020, 01:02 PM
Anyone had a 23k trip that got back outside of 4 hours of original trip? I have a 3 day today that was assigned a 2 day 23k tomorrow. New trip ends with a double deadhead back to base at 2300; however, both deadheads have less than 15 min to make the flights. Seems quite possible we will miss at least one of these flights, and both are the last flights out of those stations. Wondering how this is handled pay wise, since there seems to be no examples in Sections 4 or 23. Thanks.

That's crap. Deadheads should be legal connections.

sailingfun
03-30-2020, 04:35 AM
Sorry if this scenario has already been addressed, but I didnít feel like digging through 17 pages. My originally awarded pairing was a 5 day with 26hrs of credit. The first 3 days was a GUA layover followed by 2 days of domestic. GUA was removed, and they basically changed the pairing to a 2 day trip with credit of 13hrs. Eventually that canceled as well, and even though it is showing 23k on all 5 days, the credit is only showing the adjusted 13hrs. I should still be getting paid the original 26hrs, correct? Thanks for the help.

Does your time card show the rotation closed? If yes contact crew scheduling to have it resolved. If your time card say open relax and wait until it shows closed. Both the union and CS are swamped. Donít bother them with rotations still showing open.
To answer your other question yes you get 26 hours pay.

MOTOJOE
03-30-2020, 06:20 AM
Donít wait contact your base chief pilot. Crew schedule may not catch it. My trip was like that also chief pilot fixed it. If your trip is noop or canceled you get full pay.

Kjazz130
03-30-2020, 08:46 AM
I know the company can alter a carry out trip. Is there a limit to the modification? Would a carry out trip ever get noopíd or can they just keep changing it?

CoefficientX
03-30-2020, 11:14 AM
I know the company can alter a carry out trip. Is there a limit to the modification? Would a carry out trip ever get noopíd or can they just keep changing it?

Iíve got a 4 day carry out trip starting tomorrow the 31st. Itís been noopíd.

mesaba13
03-30-2020, 12:27 PM
This 23k stuff is making my head spin . The two day trip I start on April 1 is a DH to SLC to do a turn out of there with day 2 being one leg DH back to base.

Travel net has the turn cancelled so Iím thinking the rotation will noop. So if I acknowledge the noop prior to report I do not have to answer the phone until original trip report time? Even if they assign a recovery trip after the noop?

Once I get to report time I then have to answer the phone where there is a 6 hour window for 12 hour callout.

PapaMike
03-30-2020, 12:38 PM
This 23k stuff is making my head spin . The two day trip I start on April 1 is a DH to SLC to do a turn out of there with day 2 being one leg DH back to base.

Travel net has the turn cancelled so I’m thinking the rotation will noop. So if I acknowledge the noop prior to report I do not have to answer the phone until original trip report time? Even if they assign a recovery trip after the noop?

Once I get to report time I then have to answer the phone where there is a 6 hour window for 12 hour callout.

If they noop your trip and you acknowledge before report time then you have a 12 hour call out during that 6 hour window. If you acknowledge after report then you are basically airport reserve for 6 hours.

They can assign a rotation before you report (before the 6 hour window) but you're not required to acknowledge until original report time and you'll get the 12 hour call out as long as you acknowledged the noop before report.

MOTOJOE
03-30-2020, 02:09 PM
So if a rsrv pilot says no to a lvl3 CDC destination trip he gets put back on rsrv and still gets paid. So if your a 23k and say no to a lvl3 trip do you still get payed like a rsrv pilot?

sailingfun
03-30-2020, 02:27 PM
I know the company can alter a carry out trip. Is there a limit to the modification? Would a carry out trip ever get noopíd or can they just keep changing it?

They can modify a carry out trip once and must publish it in the bid package for the carry out month. Once that happens itís just another trip contract wise.

Kjazz130
03-30-2020, 03:09 PM
They can modify a carry out trip once and must publish it in the bid package for the carry out month. Once that happens itís just another trip contract wise.

I am talking about a trip that is already on my line. It changed this morning at 0300 then again at 0930 but still on my line as operating. Should it be noopíd? Should that be double 23k and removed with no obligation?

Jaww
03-30-2020, 03:14 PM
I am talking about a trip that is already on my line. It changed this morning at 0300 then again at 0930 but still on my line as operating. Should it be noopíd? Should that be double 23k and removed with no obligation?

Call them and ask. Thatís what I did after similar and now Iím watching Wicked Tuna on my couch.

DARR31
03-30-2020, 06:32 PM
It seems they are not NOOPing some trips, even though all legs are canceled, and making people commute in to sign in for the trip. After sign in they NOOP the trip. This avoids placing people on 23K and giving them the 12 hour call out. It makes them sit 6 hour short call in base instead. Anyone else heard of this?

All of mine that are turns or 2 days next month look like that and have not been NOOP yet. Looking at MiCrew and TravelNet, they have swapped from the 737 to A319 and now depart about 4 hrs past sign, with the return leg cancelled. Not sure if they have not got around to cleaning them up yet or not, but that is what I was thinking they might try to use us for airport standby.

The Localizer
03-31-2020, 04:40 AM
Is there any draw back to picking up a day trip in open time? I know they can cancel the legs and give you something else, but can they reassign you to something longer than a day trip?

fishforfun
03-31-2020, 06:42 AM
Is it just the 320 or are other fleets NOOPd hours before departure still? Iíve been seeing guys posting their entire schedule is NOOPd for April already.

Here is my situation. Rotation was NOOPd in the middle of the night. Never had an A attached to my rotation. Yesterday afternoon the A or ďdupe 1Ē of my rotation was NOOPd. I called CS and they said they were still working on some things.

Today my rotation shows NOOP on my schedule but is gone from my time card. It was a spillover trip and its gone, along with all credit from both months are gone. Is it unpaid because itís a spillover and did I just commute to NY for no reason?

Drum
03-31-2020, 08:28 AM
So I have a rotation that starts 3 Apr and originates in JFK. In iCrew all the legs are showing "cancelled" with the exception of the originating leg JFK-ATL. That leg showed a departure time confliction. I went into Fly Delta app to see what was up.

The originating leg flight (JFK-ATL) on my rotation is now being flown by an A319 (I'm on the ER) and the original departure time has been moved back 30 minutes.

So far there is not a NOOP on my schedule for this rotation. Am I supposed to commute in to JFK, sign in, then they NOOP my rotation thus guaranteeing I sit for 6 hours then am released? Not sure what the company is trying to do here. Anyone else seen this and what did you do? Thanks.

fishforfun
03-31-2020, 08:50 AM
So I have a rotation that starts 3 Apr and originates in JFK. In iCrew all the legs are showing "cancelled" with the exception of the originating leg JFK-ATL. That leg showed a departure time confliction. I went into Fly Delta app to see what was up.

The originating leg flight (JFK-ATL) on my rotation is now being flown by an A319 (I'm on the ER) and the original departure time has been moved back 30 minutes.

So far there is not a NOOP on my schedule for this rotation. Am I supposed to commute in to JFK, sign in, then they NOOP my rotation thus guaranteeing I sit for 6 hours then am released? Not sure what the company is trying to do here. Anyone else seen this and what did you do? Thanks.

If you look at my post above yours, that is exactly what my rotation did. Only difference was I didnít have an equipment swap.

They let me ride and eventually NOOPd hours before sign-in for my rotation. I would highly recommend calling the day before and pressing to have them make a decision so you donít have to commute for no reason into the ďhot zoneĒ with little to no food available in NY.

It took them over 6 hours to put the recovery obligation on my schedule so I didnít even get assigned a recovery rotation. Now Iím trying to figure out how to get home with almost all flights canceled.

captkdobbs
03-31-2020, 09:13 AM
I have a similar scenario to fishforfun and Drum in that none of my APR trips have been NOOP'd yet.

I have an entire month of turns (miracle at my seniority, living in base). As soon as the month was posted to icrew, I noticed about half the legs are "EQPT CHG/SUB"/"SKED LEG TIMES DO NOT MATCH" or "LEG CANCELLED".

I've since looked through travelnet, Delta app, or Delta.com and verified that I currently have my equipment (7ER) on only one turn. Every other leg for the month is either a 319/32x or a 737. I figure I'll call the 'day of' since I don't commute.

I post this as a way to see what is going on with your schedule. Sort of a status check by looking at the other sources.

Drum
03-31-2020, 09:13 AM
fishforfun. I'll call them tonight. Probably just haven't gotten around to placing the NOOP on my sched yet (I hope). It is a 0500 report on the 3rd so I have to commute in the day prior - really don't want to go thru that if I don't need to.

Thanks for the skulls up. Best of luck escaping from NY.

fishforfun
03-31-2020, 09:22 AM
fishforfun. I'll call them tonight. Probably just haven't gotten around to placing the NOOP on my sched yet (I hope). It is a 0500 report on the 3rd so I have to commute in the day prior - really don't want to go thru that if I don't need to.

Thanks for the skulls up. Best of luck escaping from NY.

I had to do the same, commute night before. I donít mind doing my job but this is getting out of hand. I donít see how the schedulers havenít caught up yet. Before they NOOPd my rotation, they built an out and back double deadhead right back to my original layover location. Deadhead to SLC the deadhead back to MSP, which is where I was starting day 2. I knew then I made a mistake commuting in.

jeffmjohnson53
03-31-2020, 09:30 AM
I admitted I had that wrong like 5 posts ago. He keeps bringing that up even after I interpreted it wrong. It still doesnít change the fact a whole month of 23K probably was not how it was intended to be used.
I totally get what you're saying. All I can offer is to try to swap for trips with the latest sign in that will probably get NOOPed (2100 or later sign in) or put in recovery slip to cherry pick trips that work for you.

captkdobbs
03-31-2020, 09:56 AM
Something I thought about over lunch: If a trip change occurred due to an equipment substitution as it did in my case, the legs showed up as a new trip in the other equipment's open time, but did nothing in the original equipment open time.

I'm guessing that, with CS putting out so many fires left and right, since my trip isn't flagging any legalities or mis-connects, it's just not on their radar. (I'm trying to logic why my trips haven't been NOOP'd yet. I know, I know, logic isn't allowed in the current discussion.)

On the subject of GS over a 23K (no obligation) scenario: do you think that the automated system can't see you as available since you have something on your schedule? I don't know how the automated system 'sees' the 23K trip.

fishforfun
03-31-2020, 10:28 AM
Something I thought about over lunch: If a trip change occurred due to an equipment substitution as it did in my case, the legs showed up as a new trip in the other equipment's open time, but did nothing in the original equipment open time.

I'm guessing that, with CS putting out so many fires left and right, since my trip isn't flagging any legalities or mis-connects, it's just not on their radar. (I'm trying to logic why my trips haven't been NOOP'd yet. I know, I know, logic isn't allowed in the current discussion.)

On the subject of GS over a 23K (no obligation) scenario: do you think that the automated system can't see you as available since you have something on your schedule? I don't know how the automated system 'sees' the 23K trip.

Thats my thought. Still seeing GSs going out (1/dayish) but 0 calls for me.

Drum
03-31-2020, 10:30 AM
I had to do the same, commute night before. I donít mind doing my job but this is getting out of hand. I donít see how the schedulers havenít caught up yet. Before they NOOPd my rotation, they built an out and back double deadhead right back to my original layover location. Deadhead to SLC the deadhead back to MSP, which is where I was starting day 2. I knew then I made a mistake commuting in.

Well before I decided to call CS, I emailed the DALPA scheduling folks. Sent them screen shot of the Fly Delta flight info that had changed as well as my original rotation.

About 6-9 minutes ago my rotation just showed up as NOOP. So I guess CS is kinda of in a melt down right now?? Although I didn't end up having to call and inquire, I would recommend that in addition to any calls maybe send the DALPA scheduling folks screen shots of what your are seeing. My guess is this is pretty rampant right now.

tennisguru
03-31-2020, 10:37 AM
Well before I decided to call CS, I emailed the DALPA scheduling folks. Sent them screen shot of the Fly Delta flight info that had changed as well as my original rotation.

About 6-9 minutes ago my rotation just showed up as NOOP. So I guess CS is kinda of in a melt down right now?? Although I didn't end up having to call and inquire, I would recommend that in addition to any calls maybe send the DALPA scheduling folks screen shots of what your are seeing. My guess is this is pretty rampant right now.
Speaking of meltdowns, it appears that icrew is down again.

deltabound
03-31-2020, 10:49 AM
Yes, youíre pay protected. Give it a few days and check time card.

Days. Or months. Per company update today this may take 4 or more weeks due to the backlog.

easternguy
03-31-2020, 11:33 AM
Somewhere on here someone said day trips that get NOOPed cant 23K because of the new 12 hour rule. How does the 12 hour rule work? I thought it was from any point. In other words, lets say you have a 1400 sign in for day trip. I thought they could call you at 0200 and give you something for recovery, but is that not the case? The 12 hour starts from the original report?

Different scenario, lets say they 23k your 2/3/4 day trip that signed in at 1800, they do this the day before or two days before. You are under 23.K.1.b ...they have to "assign" you something within 6 hours after the original report (assignment vs report is something different, as far as I can tell). So if the original sign in was at 1800, they have until midnight to make an assignment. The report for that assignment can start no later than 0600 the next day (with the new 12 hour rule)?

So the report can come on any day of the trip? In other words, they can give you something on the third day of the trip, starting at any time (as long as it gets back no later than 4 hours after your original block in)?

captkdobbs
03-31-2020, 01:36 PM
Scenario: 1-day trip original show 8am release 7pm NOOP shows on your schedule and you get notified at 6pm day prior. On that call they can assign you something that shows no earlier than 8am and releases no later than 11pm (original + 4hrs)
-or-
You are obligated to 23K recovery assignment from 8am to 2pm -BUT- with the new rules, they must give you 12 hours to report for the 23K assignment and it would still have to release no later than 11pm. There's no way they can call you at 8am, give you 12 hours notice and get you back within your recovery window. Thus, you can't be used unless they tag you at the time of the NOOP notification. The one scenario I haven't found an answer to is, if they NOOP your rotation a week out, can they TRY to notify you of a 23K recovery trip anytime up to your original show time, because the way I read it is that, as a line-holder there's no requirement to be contactable on off days.

Under the old rules you'd be obligated to 23K recovery assignment (basically be on short-call RES) from 8:am to 2pm. Anything they assigned you would have to release no later than 11pm.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-31-2020, 01:39 PM
Somewhere on here someone said day trips that get NOOPed cant 23K because of the new 12 hour rule. How does the 12 hour rule work? I thought it was from any point. In other words, lets say you have a 1400 sign in for day trip. I thought they could call you at 0200 and give you something for recovery, but is that not the case? The 12 hour starts from the original report?

Different scenario, lets say they 23k your 2/3/4 day trip that signed in at 1800, they do this the day before or two days before. You are under 23.K.1.b ...they have to "assign" you something within 6 hours after the original report (assignment vs report is something different, as far as I can tell). So if the original sign in was at 1800, they have until midnight to make an assignment. The report for that assignment can start no later than 0600 the next day (with the new 12 hour rule)?

So the report can come on any day of the trip? In other words, they can give you something on the third day of the trip, starting at any time (as long as it gets back no later than 4 hours after your original block in)?

The 12 hour call out only applies if the pilot acknowledges the NOOP. Any rotation awarded to the pilot inside the 6 hour recovery window will have a minimum of 12 hours until report.

If they don't acknowledge, they are required to report as scheduled, they will start a RAP. Must remain available for immediate assignment within 6 hour recovery window. The COVID-19 12-hour call out DOES NOT apply in this scenario.

Yes, the 23K recovery rotation needs to fit inside the footprint of the original rotation

dashdriver44
03-31-2020, 01:45 PM
The 12 hour call out only applies if the pilot acknowledges the NOOP. Any rotation awarded to the pilot inside the 6 hour recovery window will have a minimum of 12 hours until report.

If they don't acknowledge, they are required to report as scheduled, they will start a RAP. Must remain available for immediate assignment within 6 hour recovery window. The COVID-19 12-hour call out DOES NOT apply in this scenario.

Yes, the 23K recovery rotation needs to fit inside the footprint of the original rotation

To tag on... 5 day trip starting sat with all but 1 random leg cancelled. I'm assuming as it gets closer they will NOOP the trip. Normally I would acknowledge the automated call and hope for illegal double 23m recovery. In this case they have a bunch of trips that I would be legal to do and would rather not. If it noops can I not acknowledge and show at the original time and be on a 6 hr call out? Hoping that the trips are already assigned the day before which I believe they will be?

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-31-2020, 02:53 PM
To tag on... 5 day trip starting sat with all but 1 random leg cancelled. I'm assuming as it gets closer they will NOOP the trip. Normally I would acknowledge the automated call and hope for illegal double 23m recovery. In this case they have a bunch of trips that I would be legal to do and would rather not. If it noops can I not acknowledge and show at the original time and be on a 6 hr call out? Hoping that the trips are already assigned the day before which I believe they will be?

Yes....don't ACK and then you are required to report at original report time.

It's not a 6 hour call out, you start your 6 hour window where they can assign you recovery flying. Your RAP start at original report time, but you must remain available for immediate assignment, think airport standby.

dashdriver44
03-31-2020, 02:58 PM
Yes....don't ACK and then you are required to report at original report time.

It's not a 6 hour call out, you start your 6 hour window where they can assign you recovery flying. Your RAP start at original report time, but you must remain available for immediate assignment, think airport standby.

That's what I thought. I still think it's better than dealing with a 4 day they would assign me. Thanks

bender
03-31-2020, 02:59 PM
My recovery slip that I was awarded,and on my schedule for a couple days, noop'ed today. It completely dropped from my schedule and the daily coverage history. According to ALPA's email today we are not in double 23k so my recovery obligation is over, yes? I forgot to screenshot the trip but I have all the details written down since I can't find any trace of it in Icrew.

StartngOvr
03-31-2020, 03:05 PM
Reroute pay question: Reserve pilot. Assigned to a 3 day rotation. Day 1: DH to layover. Day 2: Fly one leg, layover. Day 3: DH back to base. Prior to report on day 2, flight cancels and reassigned to remain in layover til day 3. Day 3: Leg 1 fly. Leg 2 DH home. Rotation was built with a 0:03 connection time to the deadhead. Needless to say missed the flight (MX delay on leg 1.) Now rescheduled to layover again and deadhead home on day 4.

Day 4 was a golden day. So, I was extended into working on a golden day. Two questions I'm trying to run down

1) Does re-route pay apply? Seems to me this is one of the limited cases where it would apply for a reserve pilot.

2)Does a payback day apply for working on a previously scheduled X day?

Still looking through the handbook and PWA, but thought I'd see what the collective thoughts were here before trying to pursue it with scheduling or ALPA. TIA.

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-31-2020, 05:26 PM
My recovery slip that I was awarded,and on my schedule for a couple days, noop'ed today. It completely dropped from my schedule and the daily coverage history. According to ALPA's email today we are not in double 23k so my recovery obligation is over, yes? I forgot to screenshot the trip but I have all the details written down since I can't find any trace of it in Icrew.

Correct...no more recovery obligation.

Der Meister
03-31-2020, 05:55 PM
They put me on 23.G.2. Not sure how I agreed to it but that's what they claimed when I called them and asked why it's not showing 23k. Lost 37 minutes form what me line award is....

hockeypilot44
03-31-2020, 06:55 PM
My recovery slip that I was awarded,and on my schedule for a couple days, noop'ed today. It completely dropped from my schedule and the daily coverage history. According to ALPA's email today we are not in double 23k so my recovery obligation is over, yes? I forgot to screenshot the trip but I have all the details written down since I can't find any trace of it in Icrew.

Go into ICREW, then my schedule, then "Display Reserve Call Status Information." I was told by a scheduler that if you have an obligation for 23k, the 6 hours you're required to be available show up there. If it's not there, then you have no standby obligation.

DWC CAP10 USAF
04-01-2020, 03:56 AM
They put me on 23.G.2. Not sure how I agreed to it but that's what they claimed when I called them and asked why it's not showing 23k. Lost 37 minutes form what me line award is....

Thatís BS! If you had LEG CANCELLED on the rotation that is an IROP and 23.G.2 is not in play. Cancellation is literally in the definition of IROP in 2.A.149

gopher3
04-01-2020, 06:23 AM
Thatís BS! If you had LEG CANCELLED on the rotation that is an IROP and 23.G.2 is not in play. Cancellation is literally in the definition of IROP in 2.A.149

sorry if a repetitive question but when I log into Icrew and go to check my April schedule I receive an Icrew pop up saying my 4 day Rotation on April 20 has been dropped. Does this mean it has been cancelled and no 23k recovery?

dc10guy
04-01-2020, 07:30 AM
Go into ICREW, then my schedule, then "Display Reserve Call Status Information." I was told by a scheduler that if you have an obligation for 23k, the 6 hours you're required to be available show up there. If it's not there, then you have no standby obligation.

I did that,it has the hours but in the far left column it has NR. What does NR mean?

captkdobbs
04-01-2020, 08:15 AM
General question... I look at my schedule and it appears that none of my first 3 trips are going to go as published in the bid pack (none have been NOOPíd yet): when should I start calling/emailing?

And follow on question: what is the group consensus on the order of communication? (Who to call/email and when?) I donít want to inundate CS with stuff that is more than a few days out, but neither do I want to sit on hold for hours.

TIA

Drum
04-01-2020, 08:26 AM
General question... I look at my schedule and it appears that none of my first 3 trips are going to go as published in the bid pack (none have been NOOPíd yet): when should I start calling/emailing?

And follow on question: what is the group consensus on the order of communication? (Who to call/email and when?) I donít want to inundate CS with stuff that is more than a few days out, but neither do I want to sit on hold for hours.

TIA
It appears like they are slowly working their way thru them. I got NOOP on my 3 Apr rotation, now NOOP on my other two April rotations just happened this morning. So like everything, some are gonna happen faster some are gonna happen within a day or so.

I'd call CS, and send an email to DALPA sched as well. If no joy on CS then maybe pilot assist to see if they can plug in for you on the CS side. Lastly would be the CPO. That's kinda how I've been working it. I'll say this when I finally get a scheduler on the line, they are usually pretty good about sorting it out in fairly short order. Must be a rough time for them as well. Have some patience with them I guess is the mantra for the times.

hockeypilot44
04-01-2020, 11:27 AM
I did that,it has the hours but in the far left column it has NR. What does NR mean?

I believe it means no rotation indicating you are not a reserve pilot. For my trips that I picked up a recovery trip, it doesn't even show. I think they made a mistake somewhere for you.

GogglesPisano
04-01-2020, 11:29 AM
I believe it means no rotation indicating you are not a reserve pilot. For my trips that I picked up a recovery trip, it doesn't even show. I think they made a mistake somewhere for you.

It means "Not Rest." It's for FAR 117 purposes.

dc10guy
04-01-2020, 11:31 AM
I believe it means no rotation indicating you are not a reserve pilot. For my trips that I picked up a recovery trip, it doesn't even show. I think they made a mistake somewhere for you.

ok. I do have 23k on my NOOP trip and the hours show the right times of my 6 hour availability.

hockeypilot44
04-01-2020, 02:18 PM
ok. I do have 23k on my NOOP trip and the hours show the right times of my 6 hour availability.

That would be right unless it was a recovery that was 23k'd. When I picked up a recovery trip, the 6 hours of availability disappeared.

I picked up recovery slips via pcs for all my 23k'd 4 days. The recovery trips show an N before them on the icrew master schedule. I wonder if I can swap those trips. I expect one of them to cancel relieving me of any obligation.

dashdriver44
04-01-2020, 02:27 PM
That would be right unless it was a recovery that was 23k'd. When I picked up a recovery trip, the 6 hours of availability disappeared.

I picked up recovery slips via pcs for all my 23k'd 4 days. The recovery trips show an N before them on the icrew master schedule. I wonder if I can swap those trips. I expect one of them to cancel relieving me of any obligation.
if you swap you lose your rotation gurantee

illini90
04-01-2020, 02:29 PM
If I have 23K on my schedule, and don't get called in the 6 hour window, can I WS or GS in that original footprint? Sorry if that's been answered here, but I couldn't find it. And I couldn't find it in the PWA, either. Thanks for the help!

tennisguru
04-01-2020, 02:37 PM
If I have 23K on my schedule, and don't get called in the 6 hour window, can I WS or GS in that original footprint? Sorry if that's been answered here, but I couldn't find it. And I couldn't find it in the PWA, either. Thanks for the help!
I have the same thing, I have no recovery obligation and tried to WS a trip but icrew says "23k encroachment or not on recovery roster."

hockeypilot44
04-01-2020, 02:56 PM
I have the same thing, I have no recovery obligation and tried to WS a trip but icrew says "23k encroachment or not on recovery roster."

I got that when trying to pick up a recovery slip that wasn't worth 50 percent of original trip. Learning a lot about a section of the contract that was previously rarely used. I remember when 23k applied to trips bought for OE.

illini90
04-01-2020, 02:59 PM
I got that when trying to pick up a recovery slip that wasn't worth 50 percent of original trip. Learning a lot about a section of the contract that was previously rarely used. I remember when 23k applied to trips bought for OE.

I couldn't find it in the contract. I'm sure it must be there, though. Did you try to pick up the trip after you were released from your 23K obligation? That's what I'm wondering about. Not so much picking anything up before the original signin.

Abouttime2fish
04-01-2020, 03:01 PM
I couldn't find it in the contract. I'm sure it must be there, though. Did you try to pick up the trip after you were released from your 23K obligation? That's what I'm wondering about. Not so much picking anything up before the original signin.

Read 23.J.

filler

illini90
04-01-2020, 03:08 PM
Read 23.J.

filler

That still didn't answer my question. That talks about picking up a trip prior to signin. I'm talking about a 4-day 23K NOOP. Six hours after the original signing, I don't get a trip assigned. SO I'm free and clear. Can I pick up a WS or GS and get paid for the original trip, and the one I just picked up? Or am I one ever going to get paid for one of them?

Dorn
04-01-2020, 03:47 PM
So if you have a NOOP one question Iím not seeing being asked is am I obligated to answer my phone? It seems like the process goes from NOOP to 23k. So if I see 23k on MiCrew then I get a call at what point am I obligated to answer that? I would say yes Iím obligated if Iím in the original rotation sign In time + 6 hours. But what about earlier that day or the day prior to my original sign in?
Basically when MUST I answer my phone?

hockeypilot44
04-01-2020, 04:06 PM
I couldn't find it in the contract. I'm sure it must be there, though. Did you try to pick up the trip after you were released from your 23K obligation? That's what I'm wondering about. Not so much picking anything up before the original signin.

Picked up trip later in month to replace my 23k obligation. Do it via recovery slip under pcs. Read 23j or contract.

illini90
04-01-2020, 04:10 PM
Picked up trip later in month to replace my 23k obligation. Do it via recovery slip under pcs. Read 23j or contract.

OK...I'm going to try again. I am not trying to fulfill my recovery obligation. Six hours went by...it's fulfilled. Can I pick up a WS/GS and make extra money on top of my original trip?

captkdobbs
04-01-2020, 04:21 PM
So if you have a NOOP one question Iím not seeing being asked is am I obligated to answer my phone? It seems like the process goes from NOOP to 23k. So if I see 23k on MiCrew then I get a call at what point am I obligated to answer that? I would say yes Iím obligated if Iím in the original rotation sign In time + 6 hours. But what about earlier that day or the day prior to my original sign in?
Basically when MUST I answer my phone?I have a similar question. Let's say I have been notified of my NOOP and my 23k obligation several days prior to the rotation start time. Am I REQUIRED to schedule check or answer my phone before my original trip sign-in time?

23K.1.b.1. says "promptly available" from original report time yada yada, but says nothing about between notification and original report time.

Jaww
04-01-2020, 04:22 PM
OK...I'm going to try again. I am not trying to fulfill my recovery obligation. Six hours went by...it's fulfilled. Can I pick up a WS/GS and make extra money on top of my original trip?

yes
filler

fishforfun
04-01-2020, 04:51 PM
yes
filler

Even if itís within the footprint of the original trip?

DWC CAP10 USAF
04-01-2020, 04:54 PM
sorry if a repetitive question but when I log into Icrew and go to check my April schedule I receive an Icrew pop up saying my 4 day Rotation on April 20 has been dropped. Does this mean it has been cancelled and no 23k recovery?

That pop up is just for you to acknowldge the NOOP. At the bottom of your monthly schedule down by where it shows your max pick up, you might have a remark there that says "23K w/Recovery".

Then you can take a look at iCrew > Schedules > Current Schedule > Ok (at bottom) > Display Reserve Call Status Information. If it shows you with a 6 hour start/end time, then you have been assigned the 23K 6 hour window.

DWC CAP10 USAF
04-01-2020, 04:55 PM
Even if itís within the footprint of the original trip?
Yes

filler

tennisguru
04-01-2020, 04:57 PM
Even if itís within the footprint of the original trip?
23k is Pay AND credit on your time card, so that trip still counts towards your WS pickup limit.

53x11
04-01-2020, 05:08 PM
Not really 23.K related but no short calls in NYC until further notice.

fishforfun
04-01-2020, 05:16 PM
Yes

filler

Thanks guys. Thatís what I thought.

3 green
04-01-2020, 05:40 PM
23K may not be a factor later in April, it really seems like they are about to shut domestic travel down at all airlines.

Drum
04-01-2020, 06:30 PM
Not really 23.K related but no short calls in NYC until further notice.
Is that WB only or all fleets in NYC?

53x11
04-01-2020, 06:31 PM
I believe all.

Drum
04-01-2020, 06:34 PM
I believe all.
Sorry to ask again, but is that info on skynet? I haven't seen it elsewhere other than your post. Thnks

53x11
04-01-2020, 06:36 PM
Yes. A NYC A220 pilot asked and LLK stated, no short call UFN

53x11
04-01-2020, 06:41 PM
I just double checked and she said, ď We have been told no SC will be assigned in NYC UFN.

Drum
04-01-2020, 06:46 PM
I just double checked and she said, ď We have been told no SC will be assigned in NYC UFN.
Thnks

filler

sailingfun
04-02-2020, 03:45 AM
sorry if a repetitive question but when I log into Icrew and go to check my April schedule I receive an Icrew pop up saying my 4 day Rotation on April 20 has been dropped. Does this mean it has been cancelled and no 23k recovery?

No, it will show up as 23k eventually.

DWC CAP10 USAF
04-02-2020, 04:16 AM
No, it will show up as 23k eventually.

The ď23KĒ thats shows up his monthly schedule is a pay code. Itís doesnít me that he does/does not have 23K recovery obligation.

gopher3
04-02-2020, 08:34 AM
The ď23KĒ thats shows up his monthly schedule is a pay code. Itís doesnít me that he does/does not have 23K recovery obligation.

Thx Cap and SF

DWC CAP10 USAF
04-02-2020, 08:40 AM
Thx Cap and SF

my pleasure.

Go to iCrew > Schedules > Current Schedule > OK (at bottom of page) > Display Reserve Call Status Information

Does your 6 hour recovery window show up there?

DARR31
04-02-2020, 09:30 AM
Called today about my trip that was a turn with both leg CANX. They checked it out and NOOP/23K it. When I asked about the other two same rotations later in the month, he said they are working it one day at a time and would be getting to them soon. I guess just wait and see if they NOOP/23K it and if not, give them a call day of or day prior. My hat is off to them as it must be crazy down there!

Abouttime2fish
04-02-2020, 09:39 AM
Called today about my trip that was a turn with both leg CANX. They checked it out and NOOP/23K it. When I asked about the other two same rotations later in the month, he said they are working it one day at a time and would be getting to them soon. I guess just wait and see if they NOOP/23K it and if not, give them a call day of or day prior. My hat is off to them as it must be crazy down there!

must be where all these last minute broken trips come from. NOOP a 4 day that has 2 or 3 legs left on it with time changes, and create a couple 2 days out of it.

53x11
04-02-2020, 10:18 AM
There is an excellent Quick Guide to 23K in the Council 20 - DTW Special Update dated March 31st. They actually dated it the 31th. Lol.
Good question and answer guide.

JackRanch
04-02-2020, 11:51 AM
Please be gentle...I rarely post, or read, but 23k has necessitated it.

First, I want to thank the outstanding, combined effort of ALPA and Delta to making this so $#%@& difficult to understand...mission accomplished! Apologies to Crew Scheduling who has to deal with it under insane circumstances.

I have what I think is a very simple question that has not been answered by the 25 pages and +200 questions/replies, PWA, Scheduling Handbook, LOA's, company memo's, and Scheduling Alerts. Its about simple, practical execution of my 23k obligation.

1. I am a commuter. I do not intend to submit a recovery slip.
2. I understand what happens if not assigned a recovery trip at/or after report time.
3. I read 23J.2.a-b and understand that is the earliest they can assign a trip.
4. I understand they cannot assign a report time earlier than the original report time.
5. I don't understand the latest they can assign a trip prior to original report time..

My question is, if not assigned a recovery trip before original report, do I need to be in base by original report time? This would seem to defeat the 12hour relief. Scheduling Alert 20-07 states relief only goes into effect for the 6hrs after original report. Thus, one hour (or even one minute) prior to original report time they could assign a trip that a commuter or even local could not make.

I hope this makes sense, all the damn "legalese" I've read today caused my question to swell into a convoluted conjecture ;). It started off as one sentence. I have been reading this stuff to long today and probably need to start drinking whiskey like vaccine!

captkdobbs
04-02-2020, 12:04 PM
...
5. I don't understand the latest they can assign a trip prior to original report time..

My question is, if not assigned a recovery trip before original report, do I need to be in base by original report time? This would seem to defeat the 12hour relief. Scheduling Alert 20-07 states relief only goes into effect for the 6hrs after original report. Thus, one hour (or even one minute) prior to original report time they could assign a trip that a commuter or even local could not make.
If you are notified of a NOOP ("prior to reporting") and you are at home, you have no obligation to go to base for your original report time. You just have to be 'contactable' from your original show time till show-time+6 for a report no less than 12 hours after contact/assignment.

As to what is the latest they can assign you something, lets say they NOOP your trip 3 days out and notify you (and you acknowledge), you're off the hook for the original show time.

They could try to assign you something with a show time any time after your original show time (i.e. TRY to contact you to assign it), but you are under no obligation to be contactable, not until your original show time. By the time you are required to be contactable under 23.K. the earliest show time would be your original show +12 hours.

If you are notified of a NOOP, you are under no obligation to be contactable from that notification until your original trip show time. If they can't get a hold of you, they can't assign anything to you (unless you choose to answer). I hope that helped. mmmm...whiskey

DWC CAP10 USAF
04-02-2020, 12:58 PM
If you are notified of a NOOP ("prior to reporting") and you are at home, you have no obligation to go to base for your original report time. You just have to be 'contactable' from your original show time till show-time+6 for a report no less than 12 hours after contact/assignment.



I agree with your respones, but justwant to a point of clarification: The sched commitee has made it very clear that acknowledging / not acknowledging the NOOP is the fork in the road for what happens next. If the person does not acknowldge the NOOP, then crew scheds assumes the person is going to report in base at their original report time and sign in. At this point scheds could then inform them of the NOOP and give them a recovery assignment that departs immediately IAW PWA 23.K.1.c.1

I have a feeling some folks are going to get themselves in a bind and not acknowlege the NOOP, not be in base at their report time, and then when crew scheds gives them an immediate assignment, they are out of position.

JackRanch
04-02-2020, 03:40 PM
If you are notified of a NOOP ("prior to reporting")

Thank you both for your replies. That simplifed it CaptDobb, I couldnt parse that out of all the documents. So here's my next couple of questions. How is "notified" defined? Is it a phone call? Acknowledging message in MiCrew? Acknowledging message in iCrew? I saw a three day trip starting on the 5th go from NOOP to 23k (I understand 23k to be an obligation/pay thing). And another trip starting on the 15th showing 23k. I think what confuses some people is they can see NOOP or 23k and we are not sure of the difference.

Honestly I have hit the acknowledge button in MiCrew so many times and typed my password in iCrew, I cannot recall if I was "notified" or not...but I know I was not called. Is there a way to see if you were notified or acknowledged?

I think DWC nailed the problem, the fork in the road...I think a lot of pilots, junior and senior, are going to assume they can stay home and wait for a notification of a recovery trip with the 12hour relief.