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View Full Version : Some questions from a poolie


RobertTP
03-26-2020, 10:31 AM
Hello all, longtime lurker, first time poster. Last year I received CJOs for both a major pax airline and FDX, and although FDX was my first choice at the time, I decided to take the one who offered the first class (PAX airline) and push the decision off if/when FDX offered a class. With FDX starting classes up again, it looks like that decision will need to be made soon. I have a couple questions hoping someone could shed some light on:

1. Thereís a real potential Iíll be furloughed from my current airline for obvious reasons. Should that happen, and I subsequently start with FDX, will FDX likely require me to officially resign my previous job even though Iím furloughed?

2. Iíve searched and read through all of the schedule-related threads in this forum, but I couldnít find any examples of the bid packs. As a commuter, Iím most interested in seeing what a domestic week on/week off schedule of a lineholder would look like for a 4 and 5 week month. Would anyone be willing to post or PM me a picture of some examples of that type of schedule? That would be really helpful for my caveman brain, but also so I could show the wife what my schedule would/could look like someday.

Thanks for any help, hoping to call purple home sometime this year!


Stan446
03-26-2020, 10:36 AM
Hello all, longtime lurker, first time poster. Last year I received CJOs for both a major pax airline and FDX, and although FDX was my first choice at the time, I decided to take the one who offered the first class (PAX airline) and push the decision off if/when FDX offered a class. With FDX starting classes up again, it looks like that decision will need to be made soon. I have a couple questions hoping someone could shed some light on:

1. Thereís a real potential Iíll be furloughed from my current airline for obvious reasons. Should that happen, and I subsequently start with FDX, will FDX likely require me to officially resign my previous job even though Iím furloughed?

2. Iíve searched and read through all of the schedule-related threads in this forum, but I couldnít find any examples of the bid packs. As a commuter, Iím most interested in seeing what a domestic week on/week off schedule of a lineholder would look like for a 4 and 5 week month. Would anyone be willing to post or PM me a picture of some examples of that type of schedule? That would be really helpful for my caveman brain, but also so I could show the wife what my schedule would/could look like someday.

Thanks for any help, hoping to call purple home sometime this year!
Why wouldn't you resign if you left the company you are furloughed from. I'm pretty sure FedEx is going to want a letter. If you are thinking of just coming to FedEx to see how it is and then leave if you don't like it, then you are really screwing guys who really want to work at FedEx.

RobertTP
03-26-2020, 10:46 AM
Why wouldn't you resign if you left the company you are furloughed from. I'm pretty sure FedEx is going to want a letter. If you are thinking of just coming to FedEx to see how it is and then leave if you don't like it, then you are really screwing guys who really want to work at FedEx.

Simply to not close a door if I donít need to. Like most, Iíve got a family to provide for, and should something unforeseen were to happen to FDX in the next couple years, it would be nice to still have options. I realize thatís a slim possibility for FDX, but I donít think many saw this downswing at the pax airlines, either.


opt0712
03-26-2020, 11:20 AM
Simply to not close a door if I donít need to. Like most, Iíve got a family to provide for, and should something unforeseen were to happen to FDX in the next couple years, it would be nice to still have options. I realize thatís a slim possibility for FDX, but I donít think many saw this downswing at the pax airlines, either.

Honestly, resign and don't look back if FedEx is your true number one as you stated. This virus will have rippling effects for sometime on the airlines more so than us.

RobertTP
03-26-2020, 11:28 AM
Honestly, resign and don't look back if FedEx is your true number one as you stated. This virus will have rippling effects for sometime on the airlines more so than us.

More than likely, I wonít have that choice anyway. With the bailout bill potentially preventing furloughs through October, itís likely Iíll get a class with FDX before then and have to resign regardless.

TiredSoul
03-26-2020, 11:30 AM
Simply to not close a door if I donít need to. Like most, Iíve got a family to provide for, and should something unforeseen were to happen to FDX in the next couple years, it would be nice to still have options. I realize thatís a slim possibility for FDX, but I donít think many saw this downswing at the pax airlines, either.

Its called entitlement.
You canít have it all.

FishingMoney
03-26-2020, 11:38 AM
1. Yes. Youíll be required to provide a copy of your resignation letter to one of the HR folks who briefs you during BI. For my class, it was at the beginning of the second week. I believe theyíve since changed the BI structure but the requirement remains.

2. I know this wonít fully answer your question but after quickly perusing the Apr bidpack awards you are looking at 13-15 months before you can hold that on the 75 (which would likely be your assigned platform) so the specifics may be moot.

Really feel for our brothers and sisters dealing with the uncertainty on the pax side. If FDX is truly your first choice, jump and never look back.

Good luck,
FM

Adlerdriver
03-26-2020, 11:49 AM
Do you commute now? Where would you be commuting from if you went to FedEx?

BLOB
03-26-2020, 11:55 AM
Its called entitlement.
You canít have it all.
Nothing wrong with keeping options open as long as possible. Our companyís do that as well. Never close a door until you have to. Itís just business.

FXLAX
03-26-2020, 11:58 AM
Jeez guys, I think you are being a bit harsh. In life, you never want to burn any bridges unless you have to. Itís COMPLETELY reasonable to ask the question and itís COMPLETELY reasonable to not resign if you donít have to. Even if FedEx is your number one choice. Itís not being entitled. Itís being prudent.

RobertTP
03-26-2020, 12:02 PM
1. Yes. Youíll be required to provide a copy of your resignation letter to one of the HR folks who briefs you during BI. For my class, it was at the beginning of the second week. I believe theyíve since changed the BI structure but the requirement remains.

2. I know this wonít fully answer your question but after quickly perusing the Apr bidpack awards you are looking at 13-15 months before you can hold that on the 75 (which would likely be your assigned platform) so the specifics may be moot.

Really feel for our brothers and sisters dealing with the uncertainty on the pax side. If FDX is truly your first choice, jump and never look back.

Good luck,
FM

Appreciate the response FM.

RobertTP
03-26-2020, 12:05 PM
Do you commute now? Where would you be commuting from if you went to FedEx?

I donít commute at the moment. With FedEx, Iíd likely be commuting from PHL.

Noworkallplay
03-26-2020, 12:29 PM
Hello all, longtime lurker, first time poster. Last year I received CJOs for both a major pax airline and FDX, and although FDX was my first choice at the time, I decided to take the one who offered the first class (PAX airline) and push the decision off if/when FDX offered a class. With FDX starting classes up again, it looks like that decision will need to be made soon. I have a couple questions hoping someone could shed some light on:

1. Thereís a real potential Iíll be furloughed from my current airline for obvious reasons. Should that happen, and I subsequently start with FDX, will FDX likely require me to officially resign my previous job even though Iím furloughed?

2. Iíve searched and read through all of the schedule-related threads in this forum, but I couldnít find any examples of the bid packs. As a commuter, Iím most interested in seeing what a domestic week on/week off schedule of a lineholder would look like for a 4 and 5 week month. Would anyone be willing to post or PM me a picture of some examples of that type of schedule? That would be really helpful for my caveman brain, but also so I could show the wife what my schedule would/could look like someday.

Thanks for any help, hoping to call purple home sometime this year!

Hey Robert, I understand the pinch your in however, don't think for a minute that no one saw this coming for the passenger airlines. Most didn't see the virus but many saw something that would create a recession. This always kills the pax airlines. Look back on history to understand the future. Global and local (US) events will happen. They historically killed pax airlines for long periods of times. Not so much cargo like currently. That is followed by short periods of great prosperity for pax airlines and then the cycle starts again. I was at 2 pax airlines prior to FDX. I would never go back. This event WILL hurt the pax market for quite some time. I hope this adds some helpful information. I would happily resign from my legacy airline job again no questions asked. Its crazy the things you will hear guys a FDX complain about compared to where you are now. Our pilots complain about not enough draft and bigger pensions. We complain about problems no one else has because they don't exist at other places. Its a good problem to have.

Stan446
03-26-2020, 12:30 PM
Jeez guys, I think you are being a bit harsh. In life, you never want to burn any bridges unless you have to. Itís COMPLETELY reasonable to ask the question and itís COMPLETELY reasonable to not resign if you donít have to. Even if FedEx is your number one choice. Itís not being entitled. Itís being prudent.
At the expense of others in the same situation.

The Duke
03-26-2020, 12:50 PM
Hello all, longtime lurker, first time poster. Last year I received CJOs for both a major pax airline and FDX, and although FDX was my first choice at the time, I decided to take the one who offered the first class (PAX airline) and push the decision off if/when FDX offered a class. With FDX starting classes up again, it looks like that decision will need to be made soon. I have a couple questions hoping someone could shed some light on:

1. Thereís a real potential Iíll be furloughed from my current airline for obvious reasons. Should that happen, and I subsequently start with FDX, will FDX likely require me to officially resign my previous job even though Iím furloughed?

2. Iíve searched and read through all of the schedule-related threads in this forum, but I couldnít find any examples of the bid packs. As a commuter, Iím most interested in seeing what a domestic week on/week off schedule of a lineholder would look like for a 4 and 5 week month. Would anyone be willing to post or PM me a picture of some examples of that type of schedule? That would be really helpful for my caveman brain, but also so I could show the wife what my schedule would/could look like someday.

Thanks for any help, hoping to call purple home sometime this year!


Youíre in a good spot. We have many pilots at FedEx who were furloughed from United, American (Airways), etc., who never went back when offered recall. So, they started Basic Indoc at FedEx while furloughed. So they were actually hired and the company knew they were furloughed. In your case, youíre already in the pool. If youíre furloughed before getting a GS date, no need to resign from previous job. As I think youíve mentioned, if you get a GS date prior to furlough, then youíve got a big decision to make. Youíve got options, though, and thatís a good thing.

Sled
03-26-2020, 01:10 PM
One of the biggest advantages of working for FedEx (in my opinion) can be gleaned from the following thought experiment:

1) Envision a scenario in which the pax airlines are struggling and a pilot employed there would be looking at months to years of lost or reduced wages. How likely is it that this scenario will occur in your career timespan, and/or how many times will a scenario like this occur? Not difficult to imagine, as weíre in such a scenario right now. It seems that in recent history these types of events occur about once every 8-12 years.

2) While holding the conditions envisioned in (1) constant, what would be the impact on pilots employed at FedEx. Donít kid yourself, FedEx isnít bulletproof, but their business does respond differently to macro events, as weíre seeing now.

3) Finally, can you envision a scenario where your job would be MORE secure at a pax airline than it would be at FedEx (or UPS)? Certainly poor business management leading to bankruptcy might be such a scenario, but how likely is this to occur during your career, based on the knowledge you have right now?

MEMA300
03-26-2020, 01:50 PM
In the past guys have resigned seniority number at Major and their CP puts that letter in a special file that doesnt really exist with HR. not sure if that still operates that way but...

FXLAX
03-26-2020, 02:00 PM
At the expense of others in the same situation.


Not following...how is that at the expense of others in the same situation? He is already passed the interview and earned a spot in the pool before those behind him in the pool. Those ahead of him that are currently employed somewhere else have the same exact decision to make as him.

tnkrdrvr
03-26-2020, 02:04 PM
Not following...how is that at the expense of others in the same situation?

He feels that somewhere a pilot may not get a seniority number because this guy is hogging a seniority number while furloughed and one at FedEx. Makes emotional not logical sense.

sea17
03-26-2020, 03:07 PM
Sent you a PM

Adlerdriver
03-26-2020, 05:46 PM
So, they started Basic Indoc at FedEx while furloughed. So they were actually hired and the company knew they were furloughed. In your case, youíre already in the pool. If youíre furloughed before getting a GS date, no need to resign from previous job.. Iím not sure where you got your information from but itís incorrect. Anyone hired at FedEx from a major airline whether theyíre furloughed or still a current employee will have to submit a letter of resignation.

Pinkdog
03-26-2020, 07:23 PM
Iím not sure where you got your information from but itís incorrect. Anyone hired at FedEx from a major airline whether theyíre furloughed or still a current employee will have to submit a letter of resignation.


True. They took this very seriously during BI.

RobertTP
03-26-2020, 08:15 PM
I appreciate the info/discussion on the first question all. It sounds like regardless Iíll need to submit a resignation letter, which closes a door but so be it.

Moosefire
03-26-2020, 09:07 PM
Iím not sure where you got your information from but itís incorrect. Anyone hired at FedEx from a major airline whether theyíre furloughed or still a current employee will have to submit a letter of resignation.

you're actually both right. He would have to resign, but historically the carriers would not recognize the letter of resignation and maintain recall rights.

The difference in this situation versus the thousands of post 9/11 guys is the OP has yet to be furloughed, and FedEx will likely call with a class before that happens.

Adlerdriver
03-27-2020, 03:06 AM
The difference in this situation versus the thousands of post 9/11 guys is the OP has yet to be furloughed, and FedEx will likely call with a class before that happens.
Iím not talking about what his former employer chooses to do. Iím saying his status as a current employee or a furloughee makes no difference to FedEx. They will expect a letter of resignation on day one of BI, regardless of whether someone is furloughed or is voluntarily leaving their current employer.

Sluggo_63
03-27-2020, 04:33 AM
The reality is that if you are furloughed and submit a letter of resignation to your employer, that letter will almost certainly be ignored and you will be recalled when the furlough is over. That's what happened to me and plenty of my co-workers who were post-9/11 furloughees. My legacy airline called although I submitted a letter of resignation to them.

If you resign before you are furloughed... who knows what your employer ill do with that under the circumstances.

But, I'll tell you what happened in the mid-2005s here with the hiring. For quite a long time, FedEx refused to even entertain hiring a pilot furloughed from a legacy airline (except USAir... which was an odd exception). They were screwed during the furlough of the 1990s when they had hired a raft of furloughed legacy pilots, only to have them leave in droves when recalled. They then held that grudge for a long time, with good reason. They didn't want the same thing to happen again to them in the mid-2000s when all their newly hired pilots left again. So that prohibition held for a long time until about 2005 when they lifted the ban on furloughed legacy pilots and started allowing them to be interviewed and hired.

So, what I'm trying to say is, think about your decision. It won't only affect you, but generations of pilots who follow you.

As an aside, UPS had the same type of issue. I interviewed with them before I interviewed with FedEx. Three-quarters of the HR interview was asking me what I was going to do when my legacy airline called me back. Almost accusatory, not believing me when I told them I wouldn't go back. At FedEx, my furlough didn't come up one time during the interview. I didn't get hired at UPS. I'm glad I'm here and I'm glad I stayed.

rvfanatic
03-27-2020, 02:24 PM
Why wouldn't you resign if you left the company you are furloughed from. I'm pretty sure FedEx is going to want a letter. If you are thinking of just coming to FedEx to see how it is and then leave if you don't like it, then you are really screwing guys who really want to work at FedEx.

United cancelled a class 3 days prior after everyone had put in their 2 weeks notice and left their current employer. UPS pulled a similar stunt a few years ago.

BL - you shouldnít fault the OP for covering his bases. These are uncharted waters. Fly safe, deuces.

Stan446
03-27-2020, 05:50 PM
BL - you shouldnít fault the OP for covering his bases. These are uncharted waters. Fly safe, deuces.[/QUOTE]

Covering his bases? I guess, having the option to go back to United is covering his bases. While, other people with no job to go back to would love to get hired by a major airline. Its a douche move to think you really don't have to resign and have to option to go back. And FedEx got burned by guys that supposedly resigned and then left FedEx to go back. Have the balls to make a choice and stick with it. Sad to see our society has become, "Its all about me". I doubt in the coming times FedEx is even going to have to look at furloughed mainline guys. There will be plenty of regional people who will be looking for a job.

FXLAX
03-27-2020, 08:08 PM
Covering his bases? I guess, having the option to go back to United is covering his bases. While, other people with no job to go back to would love to get hired by a major airline. Its a douche move to think you really don't have to resign and have to option to go back. And FedEx got burned by guys that supposedly resigned and then left FedEx to go back. Have the balls to make a choice and stick with it. Sad to see our society has become, "Its all about me". I doubt in the coming times FedEx is even going to have to look at furloughed mainline guys. There will be plenty of regional people who will be looking for a job.


Itís not an all about me thing. Itís just simply prudent and the smart thing to do if you have the choice. It isnít some malicious act. Itís not something to take personal.

Sluggo_63
03-28-2020, 05:56 AM
Covering his bases? I guess, having the option to go back to United is covering his bases. While, other people with no job to go back to would love to get hired by a major airline. Its a douche move to think you really don't have to resign and have to option to go back. And FedEx got burned by guys that supposedly resigned and then left FedEx to go back. Have the balls to make a choice and stick with it. Sad to see our society has become, "Its all about me". I doubt in the coming times FedEx is even going to have to look at furloughed mainline guys. There will be plenty of regional people who will be looking for a job.
First, there is no "supposedly resigned." People resigned. Their employer decided to ignore that letter and recall furloughed employees. That's a nice touch. But don't think for a minute that any corporation whether it be a FedEx or a legacy airline will shed a tear if or when they have to furlough thousands of employees. It had better be "all about me" because if you have some misplaced thought of allegiance to your employer, you are in for a rude awakening. Why don't the airlines "have some balls to make a choice" of employing a pilot and "stick with it."

Do you know how FedEx can ensure that the furloughed legacy pilots don't leave here when they are recalled? Make this place better than someone's former employer so they don't want to leave. That's how.

fly2ski
03-28-2020, 06:45 AM
But don't think for a minute that any corporation whether it be a FedEx or a legacy airline will shed a tear if or when they have to furlough thousands of employees. It had better be "all about me" because if you have some misplaced thought of allegiance to your employer, you are in for a rude awakening.

Do you know how FedEx can ensure that the furloughed legacy pilots don't leave here when they are recalled? Make this place better than someone's former employer so they don't want to leave. That's how.


Nailed it Sluggo, the truth hurts!

kronan
03-29-2020, 02:29 PM
There are only so many FedEx jobs\seniority numbers.

The implied intention here is to come to FedEx for a year or two until the OP can return to his mainline job.
The why should I have to resign just to be hired at FedEx mindset.

No one truly owes any obligation to another pilot seeking employment, but, IMO-it's an interesting display of a lack of integrity.

There's a whole slew of pilots hoping for just One big airline Seniority number.

Definitely not an easy situation, but I sure didn't get the impression the OP was just biding his time at his mainline gig before being able to switch over to FedEx

kronan
03-29-2020, 02:35 PM
I mean, there's the whole, of course FedEx was my #1 Choice...but what does the flying work schedule look like.

There's been countless posts of what a typical week of FedEx flying looks like domestically.
What commutes are like from various cities.
What double DH's look like, and the bennies of accumulating miles.

The joys of Intl flying, and perhaps being Senior enough to be a psuedo Pro-RFO with all of the FF miles just loading up. Guys with Elite status on a couple of different airlines

FXLAX
03-29-2020, 05:07 PM
There are only so many FedEx jobs\seniority numbers.

The implied intention here is to come to FedEx for a year or two until the OP can return to his mainline job.
The why should I have to resign just to be hired at FedEx mindset.

No one truly owes any obligation to another pilot seeking employment, but, IMO-it's an interesting display of a lack of integrity.

There's a whole slew of pilots hoping for just One big airline Seniority number.

Definitely not an easy situation, but I sure didn't get the impression the OP was just biding his time at his mainline gig before being able to switch over to FedEx


This whole situation is really simple. The smart thing to do is to not resign if you donít have to. If you resign when you are not required to, it may say a lot of good things, but its also not as smart as not resigning until you have to.

I certainly wouldnít begrudge ANY pilot if they were fortunate enough to have that choice.

Stan446
03-29-2020, 09:31 PM
[QUOTE=FXLAX;3016582]This whole situation is really simple. The smart thing to do is to not resign if you donít have to. If you resign when you are not required to, it may say a lot of good things, but its also not as smart as not resigning until you have to.

I certainly wouldnít begrudge ANY pilot if they were fortunate enough to have that choice.[/QUOTE

I bet you'd begrudge them if you were unemployed and trying to get a job.
So holding a seniority number at two airlines is okay? Guys that want a career at FedEx could be behind a guy that isn't sure about FedEx? I was unemployed and knew guys that FedEx hired, that had no intention of staying at FedEx. Guys with a job and recall rights. Trying being unemployed because some Ahole Is doing a "temp" job at FedEx. Its unethical for for any mainline CP to not honor a resignation, And I hope that FedEx doesn't hire any of the furloughed guys until all the guys that really want to work at FedEx are hired. I doubt FedEx is going to need any mainline pilots with the numbers of regional pilots that are out of work. Guys that will be happy to make a career at FedEx. Its called ethics, not the prudent thing.

fightandflight
03-30-2020, 04:56 AM
I bet you'd begrudge them if you were unemployed and trying to get a job.
So holding a seniority number at two airlines is okay? Guys that want a career at FedEx could be behind a guy that isn't sure about FedEx? I was unemployed and knew guys that FedEx hired, that had no intention of staying at FedEx. Guys with a job and recall rights. Trying being unemployed because some Ahole Is doing a "temp" job at FedEx. Its unethical for for any mainline CP to not honor a resignation, And I hope that FedEx doesn't hire any of the furloughed guys until all the guys that really want to work at FedEx are hired. I doubt FedEx is going to need any mainline pilots with the numbers of regional pilots that are out of work. Guys that will be happy to make a career at FedEx. Its called ethics, not the prudent thing.

In my opinion this notion that someone can't have two seniority numbers because it somehow shows they don't "really want to work" at FedEx is wrong. The bottom line is when they made the decision to go to an airline they chose one that happened to furlough them. They earned the job at FedEx and for all we know they will go there, love it, and stay forever. If they happen to get recalled and liked their first choice better, they should have the right to go back to their first choice. It is easy to look at this from the perspective of a FedEx pilot and only want true believers, but are you telling me that if you got furloughed and went to Frontier (for example) and hated it, you wouldn't want the right to go back to the job you earned at FedEx? No need to answer, just a thought experiment that is too easy to answer from the safety of not having to make the decision. They (the furloughed pilot) will always be one person filling one job and just because they got that job in front of someone that may not have even gotten hired anywhere else, that doesn't mean that person really wants to be at FedEx any more than them. By your logic, a furloughed pilot should not get a job ANYWHERE else, because they could be taking that bus driver or plumbing job from someone that "really" wants it. If the furloughed pilot leaves FedEx for another airline, the spot opens for the next person to earn. Bottom line, I understand the compassion in your opinion but I don't think that this is truly an ethical dilemma.

Nightflyer
03-30-2020, 05:12 AM
The solution to all of this is a national seniority list.

You are awarded your lifetime seniority number on the day you acquire your ATP.

Now you can change airlines as you please, and would be paid according to your seniority.

This would prevent the airlines from taking advantage of us, we could leave at will if we felt we had a bad contract, and take our seniority elsewhere. In this way, we would be more like free agents, and could sell our skills to the highest bidder.

You can discuss that while I go work.

FXLAX
03-30-2020, 09:24 AM
I bet you'd begrudge them if you were unemployed and trying to get a job.
So holding a seniority number at two airlines is okay? Guys that want a career at FedEx could be behind a guy that isn't sure about FedEx? I was unemployed and knew guys that FedEx hired, that had no intention of staying at FedEx. Guys with a job and recall rights. Trying being unemployed because some Ahole Is doing a "temp" job at FedEx. Its unethical for for any mainline CP to not honor a resignation, And I hope that FedEx doesn't hire any of the furloughed guys until all the guys that really want to work at FedEx are hired. I doubt FedEx is going to need any mainline pilots with the numbers of regional pilots that are out of work. Guys that will be happy to make a career at FedEx. Its called ethics, not the prudent thing.


Yes, thatís exactly what I mean when I said I wouldnít begrudge them. Iím not getting into who fedex should or shouldnít hire. Thatís up to them. But if they hire I furloughed pilot itís because they were qualified and got through the interview process. In other words, FedEx felt that they earned a job offer. Thatís good enough for me whether or not they were furloughed or not. Itís not being an ahole when doing the smart thing. Itís just simply being smart.

I hope FedEx hires unemployed and furloughed pilots. I would welcome both of them equally. And if the furloughed pilot takes his recall, I would be okay with that as well.

I guess Iím different. And Iím fine with that.

BLOB
03-30-2020, 10:29 AM
[QUOTE=FXLAX;3016582]This whole situation is really simple. The smart thing to do is to not resign if you donít have to. If you resign when you are not required to, it may say a lot of good things, but its also not as smart as not resigning until you have to.

I certainly wouldnít begrudge ANY pilot if they were fortunate enough to have that choice.[/QUOTE

I bet you'd begrudge them if you were unemployed and trying to get a job.
So holding a seniority number at two airlines is okay? Guys that want a career at FedEx could be behind a guy that isn't sure about FedEx? I was unemployed and knew guys that FedEx hired, that had no intention of staying at FedEx. Guys with a job and recall rights. Trying being unemployed because some Ahole Is doing a "temp" job at FedEx. Its unethical for for any mainline CP to not honor a resignation, And I hope that FedEx doesn't hire any of the furloughed guys until all the guys that really want to work at FedEx are hired. I doubt FedEx is going to need any mainline pilots with the numbers of regional pilots that are out of work. Guys that will be happy to make a career at FedEx. Its called ethics, not the prudent thing.
Stan
A company isnít going to hire until theyíve gone through and recalled everybody with a seniority number. At that point the individual would have to return or resign so he is not keeping anybody out of a job.

FrankTheTank
03-30-2020, 10:32 AM
the solution to all of this is a national seniority list.

You are awarded your lifetime seniority number on the day you acquire your atp.

Now you can change airlines as you please, and would be paid according to your seniority.

This would prevent the airlines from taking advantage of us, we could leave at will if we felt we had a bad contract, and take our seniority elsewhere. In this way, we would be more like free agents, and could sell our skills to the highest bidder.

You can discuss that while i go work.
😂😂😂😂😂. 👎🏻

BLOB
03-30-2020, 10:49 AM
The solution to all of this is a national seniority list.

You are awarded your lifetime seniority number on the day you acquire your ATP.

Now you can change airlines as you please, and would be paid according to your seniority.

This would prevent the airlines from taking advantage of us, we could leave at will if we felt we had a bad contract, and take our seniority elsewhere. In this way, we would be more like free agents, and could sell our skills to the highest bidder.

You can discuss that while I go work.
👎🏿💩👎🏿💩👎🏿💩👎🏿💩
Another suggestion endorsed by the crowd that got hired on an Age 60 timeline, could upgrade under that timeline, now gets to work to 65, will push for 70+ and now wants to go to other companies where the grass is greener and displace guys who get another 5 years as an FO. Wonít happen so not worth discussing but certainly is a ďSemper IĒ idea.

Stan446
03-30-2020, 11:00 PM
In my opinion this notion that someone can't have two seniority numbers because it somehow shows they don't "really want to work" at FedEx is wrong. The bottom line is when they made the decision to go to an airline they chose one that happened to furlough them. They earned the job at FedEx and for all we know they will go there, love it, and stay forever. If they happen to get recalled and liked their first choice better, they should have the right to go back to their first choice. It is easy to look at this from the perspective of a FedEx pilot and only want true believers, but are you telling me that if you got furloughed and went to Frontier (for example) and hated it, you wouldn't want the right to go back to the job you earned at FedEx? No need to answer, just a thought experiment that is too easy to answer from the safety of not having to make the decision. They (the furloughed pilot) will always be one person filling one job and just because they got that job in front of someone that may not have even gotten hired anywhere else, that doesn't mean that person really wants to be at FedEx any more than them. By your logic, a furloughed pilot should not get a job ANYWHERE else, because they could be taking that bus driver or plumbing job from someone that "really" wants it. If the furloughed pilot leaves FedEx for another airline, the spot opens for the next person to earn. Bottom line, I understand the compassion in your opinion but I don't think that this is truly an ethical dilemma.
The point is the furloughed guy doesn't want to give up his job. He want's to get hired away from one of the major pax carriers. See if that works, an then when he can get recalled, never giving up his mainline seniority number, stealing a seniority number from his temp worker and basically fing everyone. And figure it out, there are now plumber seniority numbers.

And the dick the the other guy mentality goes on. What if it was you hoping to get a job to support your family while someone else held two spots. Try telling your kids why you have to move because someone holds two jobs.

Nightflyer
03-30-2020, 11:23 PM
👎🏿💩👎🏿💩👎🏿💩👎🏿💩
Another suggestion endorsed by the crowd that got hired on an Age 60 timeline, could upgrade under that timeline, now gets to work to 65, will push for 70+ and now wants to go to other companies where the grass is greener and displace guys who get another 5 years as an FO. Wonít happen so not worth discussing but certainly is a ďSemper IĒ idea.

Actually, I spent an extra 5 years in the right seat during the age 65 debacle, so you got that wrong.

fightandflight
03-31-2020, 05:41 AM
The point is the furloughed guy doesn't want to give up his job. He want's to get hired away from one of the major pax carriers. See if that works, an then when he can get recalled, never giving up his mainline seniority number, stealing a seniority number from his temp worker and basically fing everyone. And figure it out, there are now plumber seniority numbers.

And the dick the the other guy mentality goes on. What if it was you hoping to get a job to support your family while someone else held two spots. Try telling your kids why you have to move because someone holds two jobs.

I guess I still donít understand the ďholding two spotsĒ part. If he is furloughed, he doesnít really hold a spot that another person could move into. The way I see it, that company wonít hire again until they recall everyone that has been furloughed. On the other hand, if a furloughed pilot returns, the company he left can start hiring immediately to fill that spot, so the fastest way to fill two jobs would be when a furloughed pilot returns to the old job...if they give up that option, the person waiting in the wings now has to wait for the lowest seniority pilot to get recalled to even have a chance. On a large scale, pilots returning from furlough could create more opportunity for a prospective pilot if the companies that furloughed are not looking to plus up manning outside of the recalls. Anyways, not looking to argue, I appreciate your viewpoint and understand why you would feel the way you do.

Adlerdriver
03-31-2020, 07:17 AM
I think it boils down to actual intentions. Being furloughed sucks and when I got hired after my furlough from a major, I had absolutely no intention of going back to airline #1. I resigned and they still called when the time came and I told them TBNT. That's reality. I think in the current environment of pilot shortage, it's reasonable to assume that Airline X is still going to try to get their furloughees to come back no matter what letter they send to get hired elsewhere.
If a furloughed pilot comes to FedEx with a reasonable intention of making it a career, that's all one can ask. If they decide when the time comes that their former life suits them better, then it's a business decision.
The only problem I have is with the ones who are simply using FedEx as a placeholder until they can go back to mama. If they know they have no intention of staying, that's a pretty low move. Especially because it's very likely that they will taint the waters for every furloughee who comes after them looking to make a change after they realize the value and stability a cargo career offers when faced with yet another unexpected industry challenge.

Noworkallplay
03-31-2020, 08:35 AM
I think it boils down to actual intentions. Being furloughed sucks and when I got hired after my furlough from a major, I had absolutely no intention of going back to airline #1. I resigned and they still called when the time came and I told them TBNT. That's reality. I think in the current environment of pilot shortage, it's reasonable to assume that Airline X is still going to try to get their furloughees to come back no matter what letter they send to get hired elsewhere.
If a furloughed pilot comes to FedEx with a reasonable intention of making it a career, that's all one can ask. If they decide when the time comes that their former life suits them better, then it's a business decision.
The only problem I have is with the ones who are simply using FedEx as a placeholder until they can go back to mama. If they know they have no intention of staying, that's a pretty low move. Especially because it's very likely that they will taint the waters for every furloughee who comes after them looking to make a change after they realize the value and stability a cargo career offers when faced with yet another unexpected industry challenge.

Easy fix. Make them have skin in the game. Have them sign an agreement that if they do leave to go back to airline X they pay a certain portion of their training back. Been done many times in this industry. Now both sides have some level of commitment.

Sluggo_63
03-31-2020, 08:39 AM
I think it boils down to actual intentions. Being furloughed sucks and when I got hired after my furlough from a major, I had absolutely no intention of going back to airline #1. I resigned and they still called when the time came and I told them TBNT. That's reality. I think in the current environment of pilot shortage, it's reasonable to assume that Airline X is still going to try to get their furloughees to come back no matter what letter they send to get hired elsewhere.
If a furloughed pilot comes to FedEx with a reasonable intention of making it a career, that's all one can ask. If they decide when the time comes that their former life suits them better, then it's a business decision.
The only problem I have is with the ones who are simply using FedEx as a placeholder until they can go back to mama. If they know they have no intention of staying, that's a pretty low move. Especially because it's very likely that they will taint the waters for every furloughee who comes after them looking to make a change after they realize the value and stability a cargo career offers when faced with yet another unexpected industry challenge.
But how do you gauge intentions? We lord over the fact that we have all sorts of new hires that have come from passenger airlines. Is that bad? Should they have stayed? When hiring was going like gang busters, and pilots had their choices of airlines to pick from, you'd always hear the "I have CJOs from XXX and YYY, but I really want to work at ZZZ, what should I do?" And what advise is given 99% of the time? "Take the first job offered" and then wait until your "dream job" calls. That's what people are told. Why don't we tell them to wait at home until their absolute number one calls and then go there. Why is it okay for them to take a spot at a placeholder airline while waiting for their #1 then, but not now?

Again, the way to not have new hires leave whether furloughed or not is to have a good enough workplace that they don't want to leave.

Adlerdriver
03-31-2020, 08:48 AM
Why is it okay for them to take a spot at a placeholder airline while waiting for their #1 then, but not now? Again, the way to not have new hires leave whether furloughed or not is to have a good enough workplace that they don't want to leave. I think we're saying the same thing. Of course you can't determine intentions. But if a pilot wants to be at FedEx but gets hired at airline X first, maybe he decides to stay and moves on with his life. However, if events conspire to put him on the street and he ends up at FedEx as part of plan B, I don't see anything wrong with that - As long as he stays. As I said, I see a difference between the guy that's just looking for a paycheck until his first airline calls him back and a guy who genuinely wants to be here now or that had FedEx as his first choice all along. The first guy is going to bail on FedEx when the grass turns back to green at his first airline while the other guy will probably be happier here and stay no matter what because he wouldn't have put us at the top of his list to start with without recognizing the value we're all experiencing yet again within 20 year of the last sh!t storm.

BlueMoon
03-31-2020, 09:47 AM
Easy fix. Make them have skin in the game. Have them sign an agreement that if they do leave to go back to airline X they pay a certain portion of their training back. Been done many times in this industry. Now both sides have some level of commitment.

No thanks, I worked at a place that had a training agreement like that. There werenít a whole lot of choices at the time and luckily it worked out, but We want employers to retain employees because itís a better place to work than the other companies and not because they are holding you financially hostage.

Sluggo_63
03-31-2020, 09:54 AM
Easy fix. Make them have skin in the game. Have them sign an agreement that if they do leave to go back to airline X they pay a certain portion of their training back. Been done many times in this industry. Now both sides have some level of commitment.
Please don't join the negotiating committee.

FXLAX
03-31-2020, 11:55 AM
The point is the furloughed guy doesn't want to give up his job. He want's to get hired away from one of the major pax carriers. See if that works, an then when he can get recalled, never giving up his mainline seniority number, stealing a seniority number from his temp worker and basically fing everyone. And figure it out, there are now plumber seniority numbers.

And the dick the the other guy mentality goes on. What if it was you hoping to get a job to support your family while someone else held two spots. Try telling your kids why you have to move because someone holds two jobs.


If you have two seniority numbers, itís because you earned them. I think itís dick mentality if I feel entitled to one of that pilotís seniority numbers. Earn them yourself. Other than that, itís not a smart move to resign one when you donít have to.

FXLAX
03-31-2020, 12:03 PM
I think we're saying the same thing. Of course you can't determine intentions. But if a pilot wants to be at FedEx but gets hired at airline X first, maybe he decides to stay and moves on with his life. However, if events conspire to put him on the street and he ends up at FedEx as part of plan B, I don't see anything wrong with that - As long as he stays. As I said, I see a difference between the guy that's just looking for a paycheck until his first airline calls him back and a guy who genuinely wants to be here now or that had FedEx as his first choice all along. The first guy is going to bail on FedEx when the grass turns back to green at his first airline while the other guy will probably be happier here and stay no matter what because he wouldn't have put us at the top of his list to start with without recognizing the value we're all experiencing yet again within 20 year of the last sh!t storm.


Are you saying you would hold it against a furloughed pilot who comes here for a paycheck if their intention when coming here is to go back? Would you begrudge an unemployed pilot a paycheck he earned by getting through the interview and training process?

Adlerdriver
03-31-2020, 12:31 PM
Are you saying you would hold it against a furloughed pilot who comes here for a paycheck if their intention when coming here is to go back? Would you begrudge an unemployed pilot a paycheck he earned by getting through the interview and training process?
I said as much in my post to which you responded. I would begrudge him that because by doing so, he would be ensuring that no other furloughed pilots had the option to come here and stay. It took FedEx a long time to start hiring furloughed pilots after they were screwed over by a bunch in the 1990s. Additionally, he obviously would be asked about his intentions in his FedEx interview, so in addition to being selfish heíd be a liar. He can go get his temporary paycheck somewhere else.

StarClipper
03-31-2020, 12:51 PM
All we are at any of these companies is a seniority number, nothing more. They will get rid of you if they have to at anytime for any reason. I think itís pathetic to think that a furloughed pilot coming here and holding a seniority number is being unethical or lacks integrity because he has intentions of going back. How about the guys who go elsewhere while waiting for FedEX to call them? Is that lack of integrity also? Who you tell you son, daughter or friends donít go to the Majors while the wait on FedEX because itís not right?
How about the company hold itself to a level of ethics and integrity by adhering to CBA language, enhancing the A Plan as it was negotiated, etc etc etc.

Adlerdriver
03-31-2020, 01:25 PM
All we are at any of these companies is a seniority number, nothing more. They will get rid of you if they have to at anytime for any reason. I think itís pathetic to think that a furloughed pilot coming here and holding a seniority number is being unethical or lacks integrity because he has intentions of going back. How about the guys who go elsewhere while waiting for FedEX to call them? Is that lack of integrity also? Who you tell you son, daughter or friends donít go to the Majors while the wait on FedEX because itís not right?
How about the company hold itself to a level of ethics and integrity by adhering to CBA language, enhancing the A Plan as it was negotiated, etc etc etc. Using the companyís or someone elseís lack of integrity to justify similar behavior is a pretty weak argument.

Also, Iím not talking about a career progression involving multiple airlines. The scenario in question is simple and not nuanced. A furloughed pilot comes to FedEx, falsely signs and delivers a letter of resignation during BI, with every intention to leave when he is recalled.Thatís it, no other offshoots or tangents of that scenario, just that.
Do you really think someone having a problem with that obvious lack of integrity is pathetic?

RobertTP
03-31-2020, 02:09 PM
Just to be clear, my intent is not to use FedEx as a stop gap. Should I jump over to FedEx, I have every intention on staying. I still serve part-time, with the option for full-time if I needed a stop gap in the event of a furlough. I wouldnít put my family through first year pay, training, and being junior again just to test the waters. I just didnít want to burn any bridges if I didnít need to, but it sounds like a resignation letter will be required.

FXLAX
03-31-2020, 02:35 PM
I said as much in my post to which you responded. I would begrudge him that because by doing so, he would be ensuring that no other furloughed pilots had the option to come here and stay. It took FedEx a long time to start hiring furloughed pilots after they were screwed over by a bunch in the 1990s. Additionally, he obviously would be asked about his intentions in his FedEx interview, so in addition to being selfish heíd be a liar. He can go get his temporary paycheck somewhere else.


Or he can get his paycheck wherever he can earn it, right? I just donít understand the mentality of begrudging anyone their paycheck they earned themselves. I guess Iím just different.

FXLAX
03-31-2020, 02:38 PM
Using the companyís or someone elseís lack of integrity to justify similar behavior is a pretty weak argument.

Also, Iím not talking about a career progression involving multiple airlines. The scenario in question is simple and not nuanced. A furloughed pilot comes to FedEx, falsely signs and delivers a letter of resignation during BI, with every intention to leave when he is recalled.Thatís it, no other offshoots or tangents of that scenario, just that.
Do you really think someone having a problem with that obvious lack of integrity is pathetic?


I donít see how that affects you? If FedEx finds it good enough to hire the person, why would you take it personally that the pilot earned his seniority by going through the hiring, training, probationary process?

Sluggo_63
03-31-2020, 03:02 PM
Using the companyís or someone elseís lack of integrity to justify similar behavior is a pretty weak argument.

Also, Iím not talking about a career progression involving multiple airlines. The scenario in question is simple and not nuanced. A furloughed pilot comes to FedEx, falsely signs and delivers a letter of resignation during BI, with every intention to leave when he is recalled.Thatís it, no other offshoots or tangents of that scenario, just that.
Do you really think someone having a problem with that obvious lack of integrity is pathetic?
What if he comes with every intention to stay, but hates it? Does he have to stay. You do realize that up until a few weeks ago we had pilots routinely leave us to go to a passenger carrier, don't you? This place isn't for everyone. It sucks to be junior here. If we hire a pilot out of the Navy and they get here and hate it, do you begrudge them for accepting a job somewhere else. Did they keep another of their Navy buds from getting hired who would have stayed here? If a furloughee sends in a resignation letter to their airline and comes here and hates it, then their airline calls them back and they take it, we should hold it against them?

StarClipper
03-31-2020, 03:08 PM
With if someone came here because of all the great benefits including our A Plan and then it get negotiated away for some other crappy VB Plan, would you blame them for leaving too?

Adlerdriver
03-31-2020, 03:46 PM
What if he comes with every intention to stay, but hates it? Does he have to stay. You do realize that up until a few weeks ago we had pilots routinely leave us to go to a passenger carrier, don't you? This place isn't for everyone. It sucks to be junior here. If we hire a pilot out of the Navy and they get here and hate it, do you begrudge them for accepting a job somewhere else. Did they keep another of their Navy buds from getting hired who would have stayed here? If a furloughee sends in a resignation letter to their airline and comes here and hates it, then their airline calls them back and they take it, we should hold it against them? People keep trying to extrapolate the scenario into situations I'm not talking about. I was clear in my last response to Starclipper what scenario I'm talking about. It's not a Navy guy coming here and deciding to go somewhere else. It's not the guy who comes here legitimately thinking this is his last airline even as a furloughee with every intention of staying who eventually decides it's not for him. I said that many posts back. It's a business decision. It happens.

I am responding to the scenario Starclipper brought up when he decided it's pathetic to expect a little integrity from our new hires:
I think itís pathetic to think that a furloughed pilot coming here and holding a seniority number is being unethical or lacks integrity because he has intentions of going back.
Someone who comes here knowing that they are going to submit a letter of resignation under false pretenses during FedEx BI and take a recall to their old job is not acting in good faith and I have a problem with that. Making that choice will most likely remove the option for anyone else to come here as a furloughed pilot in the future. You obviously don't have a problem with that or the potential to work with someone whose word and integrity are worth nothing. To each his own.
But that is the ONE AND ONLY issue I have. So, you can stop responding and coming up with all kinds of additional "what about this" scenarios and get yourself all in a dither. It's about honesty plain and simple. You either get that or you don't.

StarClipper
03-31-2020, 04:14 PM
People keep trying to extrapolate the scenario into situations I'm not talking about. I was clear in my last response to Starclipper what scenario I'm talking about. It's not a Navy guy coming here and deciding to go somewhere else. It's not the guy who comes here legitimately thinking this is his last airline even as a furloughee with every intention of staying who eventually decides it's not for him. I said that many posts back. It's a business decision. It happens.

I am responding to the scenario Starclipper brought up when he decided it's pathetic to expect a little integrity from our new hires:

Someone who comes here knowing that they are going to submit a letter of resignation under false pretenses during FedEx BI and take a recall to their old job is not acting in good faith and I have a problem with that. Making that choice will most likely remove the option for anyone else to come here as a furloughed pilot in the future. You obviously don't have a problem with that or the potential to work with someone whose word and integrity are worth nothing. To each his own.
But that is the ONE AND ONLY issue I have. So, you can stop responding and coming up with all kinds of additional "what about this" scenarios and get yourself all in a dither. It's about honesty plain and simple. You either get that or you don't.

These guys might just be trying to pay their bills and support their family like everyone else. Are they supposed to stay unemployed until they get recalled? These companies will adapt as guys come and go. I didnít hear any of that integrity stuff not to long ago when guy on hear were advising other to take the first class date until the get their Majic call to the company of their choice.

Adlerdriver
03-31-2020, 05:01 PM
These guys might just be trying to pay their bills and support their family like everyone else. Are they supposed to stay unemployed until they get recalled? These companies will adapt as guys come and go. I didnít hear any of that integrity stuff not to long ago when guy on hear were advising other to take the first class date until the get their Majic call to the company of their choice. So, it's okay to lie if someone is trying to pay bills or support their family? In my world view, hardship doesn't suddenly give someone carte blanche to throw their integrity out the window and do whatever it takes. Maybe they have to take a different job until their recall. And once again you're trying to equate taking a job and then quitting to move on to a better one (or one that suits you better) with being furloughed and falsely resigning with the intention of returning when recalled. THOSE TWO SITUATIONS ARE NOT THE SAME!! Are you intentionally ignoring the difference or is reading comprehension really a struggle for you? Look, you and I disagree. That's that. You're never going to convince me that it's acceptable to lie to FedEx or any employer and submit a false document with no intention of complying with it. So, let's just call it. This horse died several posts back.

PolicyWonk
03-31-2020, 07:36 PM
I hope FedEx continues to interview all eligible candidates regardless of furlough status.

If we train someone and they leave, it is costly. No doubt about it. But I don't think many are going to leave in the current and ongoing economic milieu.

We have built a company that I would desire to come to as a caboose, even now. And I'll try to keep it that way.

Tuck
04-03-2020, 10:33 AM
I hope FedEx continues to interview all eligible candidates regardless of furlough status.

If we train someone and they leave, it is costly. No doubt about it. But I don't think many are going to leave in the current and ongoing economic milieu.

We have built a company that I would desire to come to as a caboose, even now. And I'll try to keep it that way.
I can't see us hiring this year. Things are changing dramatically every day. It was just recently when Mr. Smith said on national news he sees a 'V' recovery - I don't think he, or anyone else, believes that anymore. We had to backfill HKG which I was surprised they did it anyways as the future of that base is going to be way up in the air. Hate to be bearer of bad news but I don't see a major hiring for quite awhile.

too low gear
04-04-2020, 07:13 AM
I can't see us hiring this year. Things are changing dramatically every day. It was just recently when Mr. Smith said on national news he sees a 'V' recovery - I don't think he, or anyone else, believes that anymore. We had to backfill HKG which I was surprised they did it anyways as the future of that base is going to be way up in the air. Hate to be bearer of bad news but I don't see a major hiring for quite awhile.
This was going to be my question. Are the freight carriers still hiring? And if so, how long until they stop and possibly furlough? As the global recession deepens and it becomes less like that the economies will just recover back to normal, it seems to me that it's just a matter of time before it spreads to freight. If millions of people in the US are out of work and businesses obviously reduce their output and some even close up, this would have an affect on all freight transportation modes.

P-3Bubba
04-05-2020, 10:46 AM
This was going to be my question. Are the freight carriers still hiring? And if so, how long until they stop and possibly furlough? As the global recession deepens and it becomes less like that the economies will just recover back to normal, it seems to me that it's just a matter of time before it spreads to freight. If millions of people in the US are out of work and businesses obviously reduce their output and some even close up, this would have an affect on all freight transportation modes.

I love the ďDoom and GloomĒ scenarios. No one knows. Thereís no data to support any theories. You can speculate this or that, but doom and gloom sells copies of Newsweek, WSJ and whatever Network Cable you want to watch. Itís all about the spike in NYC and the possibility of some sort of treatment until a vaccine is developed.

-Bubs

freightretriever
04-06-2020, 07:40 PM
This was going to be my question. Are the freight carriers still hiring? And if so, how long until they stop and possibly furlough? As the global recession deepens and it becomes less like that the economies will just recover back to normal, it seems to me that it's just a matter of time before it spreads to freight. If millions of people in the US are out of work and businesses obviously reduce their output and some even close up, this would have an affect on all freight transportation modes.

My guess is UPS and Fedex will be furloughing by fall if this keeps up much longer. Fred Smith already appears to be circling the wagons. It's only a matter of time before the broader economy catches up to us too. Definitely in a better position than pax carriers but its headed this way too.

opt0712
04-07-2020, 12:40 AM
My guess is UPS and Fedex will be furloughing by fall if this keeps up much longer. Fred Smith already appears to be circling the wagons. It's only a matter of time before the broader economy catches up to us too. Definitely in a better position than pax carriers but its headed this way too.

Easy, man.

Thrust Hold
04-07-2020, 05:39 AM
My guess is UPS and Fedex will be furloughing by fall if this keeps up much longer. Fred Smith already appears to be circling the wagons. It's only a matter of time before the broader economy catches up to us too. Definitely in a better position than pax carriers but its headed this way too.

History has shown that UPS furloughs and brings in management pilots to furlough deeper. FedEx takes a collective contractual reduction in Monthly Guarantees.

C2078
04-07-2020, 08:36 AM
History has shown that UPS furloughs and brings in management pilots to furlough deeper. FedEx takes a collective contractual reduction in Monthly Guarantees.

Management ranks since the furlough has been reduced a fair amount, FYI.