Airline Pilot Forums

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bohicagain
03-27-2020, 10:16 AM
2pm on a Friday is when everyone goes home for the weekend in ATL....

Someone must know something!


Aviator147
03-27-2020, 10:25 AM
They’re all still in the meeting room having a Mexican standoff with Delta branded Purell bottles.

mikea72580
03-27-2020, 10:30 AM
ALPA: “We really want to help with cash preservation, and we want to do our part to assist in payroll losses. So with factoring in the CARE ACT, what are the losses due to payroll for the next six months?”

Management: “Well, technically $0”.

ALPA: “We out”.


HeH8Me
03-27-2020, 10:57 AM
See ya 30 September....

Tailhookah
03-27-2020, 11:23 AM
They already showed us again (remember post 9/11 also???) they aren’t good on their word. The ink wasn’t even dry from LOA 20-01 when they changed their mind... because things change. Now another give? Sorry. The Gubment just gave Delta a huuuuge block of free cheese and very cheap loans after that... right now I’d say for any giveback of ALV that it’s tied to a quid pro quo. Lower ALV? We want an extra week of vacation back. Or real crew meals (old days) and commuter parking... any givebacks have to be tied to automatic snap backs based off metrics. As I see it, a reduced ALV is a pay cut. Period.

D B Cooper
03-27-2020, 11:26 AM
Someone went around to all the bathrooms there and took the toilet paper. Now we have some leverage.

velosnow
03-27-2020, 11:31 AM
Someone went around to all the bathrooms there and took the toilet paper. Now we have some leverage.

After serving spicy chorizo burritos and french roast coffee.

Diabolical.

JamesBond
03-27-2020, 11:32 AM
They already showed us again (remember post 9/11 also???) they aren’t good on their word. The ink wasn’t even dry from LOA 20-01 when they changed their mind... because things change. Now another give? Sorry. The Gubment just gave Delta a huuuuge block of free cheese and very cheap loans after that... right now I’d say for any giveback of ALV that it’s tied to a quid pro quo. Lower ALV? We want an extra week of vacation back. Or real crew meals (old days) and commuter parking... any givebacks have to be tied to automatic snap backs based off metrics. As I see it, a reduced ALV is a pay cut. Period.
Agree that the ALV cut is a give. The quids you mentioned are not worth it however with the exception of snap backs.

20Fathoms
03-27-2020, 11:50 AM
I’ve been against any cut in the ALV, but I suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost Delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. UAL deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. ALV reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and MUST go to memory rat.

Viking busdvr
03-27-2020, 11:53 AM
I’ve been against any cut in the ALV, but I suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost Delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. UAL deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. ALV reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and MUST go to memory rat.

This isn’t going to be a problem for a long time......

LumberJack
03-27-2020, 11:54 AM
I’ve been against any cut in the ALV, but I suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost Delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. UAL deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. ALV reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and MUST go to memory rat.

Agreed on all points.

Hank Kingsley
03-27-2020, 11:57 AM
American's early outs effective 4/1. Source is their webboard.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 11:58 AM
I’ve been against any cut in the ALV, but I suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost Delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. UAL deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. ALV reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and MUST go to memory rat.

Bingo dot dot dot dot

ODB2
03-27-2020, 11:59 AM
I’ve been against any cut in the ALV, but I suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost Delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. UAL deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. ALV reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and MUST go to memory rat.

7. Return to pre2012 profit sharing formula.Or better

Tailhookah
03-27-2020, 12:14 PM
7. Return to pre2012 profit sharing formula.or better


outstanding!!!!!!!!!

Tailhookah
03-27-2020, 12:15 PM
i’ve been against any cut in the alv, but i suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. Ual deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. Alv reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and must go to memory rat.

outstanding!!!!!!


(wanted to capitalize “outstanding”... even wrote it w/ all caps but the censoring of this website changed it, twice to all lower case. The full censorship of APC continues under the US Constitution’s First Amendment)

Jaww
03-27-2020, 12:17 PM
outstanding!!!!!!


(wanted to capitalize “outstanding”... Even wrote it w/ all caps but the censoring of this website changed it, twice to all lower case. The full censorship of apc continues)

outstanding...this is bs.

Banzai
03-27-2020, 12:27 PM
ALV relief in exchange for our entire Section 23 ask in the new contract. We'll LOA that section now, and incorporate it into the actual contract when we get around to it.

I kid. Even if we did that, the company would find some other way to extract it from us when negotiations resume.

beis77
03-27-2020, 12:35 PM
I’ve been against any cut in the ALV, but I suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost Delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. UAL deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. ALV reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and MUST go to memory rat.

Given the present environment, I don’t think there’s any chance that management will agree to future repayment of cut ALVs, especially with interest and on a fixed timeline (since no one knows how long it will take to recover).

The MEC should push for the SILs to be posted, plus push for an early retirement package like AA, prior to any consideration for reduced ALVs. No matter if people are for/against ALV cuts, SILs and early outs should be implemented prior to any discussion of a wholesale hours cut for the group IMO.

igotgummed
03-27-2020, 12:36 PM
We realize that there was NO verification in the past. Now we’re willing to go back to c12 verification practice? No thanks.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 12:47 PM
Given the present environment, I don’t think there’s any chance that management will agree to future repayment of cut ALVs, especially with interest and on a fixed timeline (since no one knows how long it will take to recover).

The MEC should push for the SILs to be posted, plus push for an early retirement package like AA, prior to any consideration for reduced ALVs. No matter if people are for/against ALV cuts, SILs and early outs should be implemented prior to any discussion of a wholesale hours cut for the group IMO.

Someone needs to start a thread betting when the first stock buy back occurs. I will gladly vote for no ALV cut unless we get some of the things on that list. The price of concessions has gone up after the April rebid BS. And I’m square in the target of a furlough.

Tailhookah
03-27-2020, 12:53 PM
The feeling I’ve gotten from listening to the skynet videos and trying to read between the lines is that other groups complained about the pilots getting SILs. I say **** off and you reap what you sow. We have a union. We negotiated SILs. That’s life. But just like society today, we all have to be equal... even when we are not at Delta. I’m not impressed w/ our new “team”... Laughter. Gumm and Burns. They all actually seem to revel in this crisis and have at times seemed almost enjoying their privilege of being “The Guy” to save us... from ourselves. Not impressed. First act of new non-pilot SVP of Flight Ops? Renege on his first LOA... bad call man. That one you will not recover from... ever.

Funk
03-27-2020, 03:29 PM
I’ve been against any cut in the ALV, but I suppose everyone has a price. In fact there are quite a few significant quids we could get that cost Delta very little in the short term.

1. Restoration of full voluntary verification for sick leave.

2. UAL deadhead language including the first class seats they get to and from training, plus the ability to have a glass of wine again on ocean crossings.

3. Commuter clause reduced to one flight with a confirmed jumpseat reservation.

4. Long call increase to 14 hours.

5. Hotels for new hires (no cost item since there aren’t any new hires and if there ever are again we’re officially out of the woods).

6. ALV reductions are banked with interest with a hard timeline on repayment.

Any agreement would have to be heavily weighted in our favor and MUST go to memory rat.

How about a cap on executive pay and compensation anytime our CBA goes beyond its amendable date?

StartngOvr
03-27-2020, 03:36 PM
outstanding!!!!!!





(wanted to capitalize “outstanding”... even wrote it w/ all caps but the censoring of this website changed it, twice to all lower case. The full censorship of APC continues under the US Constitution’s First Amendment)



O U T S T A N D I N G ?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

GogglesPisano
03-27-2020, 03:40 PM
Chairman's Letter is out.

Bucking Bar
03-27-2020, 03:57 PM
Chairman's Letter is out.

So the company asked for $100,000,000.00, or what?

No more Biscoffs on flights <900NM?

Need to know what the pro quo is.

Grapple
03-27-2020, 04:08 PM
The MEC said no.


​​​​​​​

gloopy
03-27-2020, 04:35 PM
The feeling I’ve gotten from listening to the skynet videos and trying to read between the lines is that other groups complained about the pilots getting SILs. I say **** off and you reap what you sow. We have a union. We negotiated SILs. That’s life. But just like society today, we all have to be equal...

And the dumbest thing about all of this...is that UAL, AA and JB (maybe more) who are doing SILs already have unionized FA groups! So their propaganda can't possibly even make sense to those its directed at in the first place.



... First act of new non-pilot SVP of Flight Ops? Renege on his first LOA... bad call man. That one you will not recover from... ever.

Yeah that's some pretty bad optics alright. I wonder how high up the chain they will go to own this blunder. If it stops with him then maybe they can set him up as a fall guy. But if its got Ed and the entire chain's stank all over it, pride and defensiveness usually takes over and they'll have to pretend it was the right decision, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, which will water down any remaining credibility.

They actually turned down 100M or so in savings (and now maybe more) to prevent the FA's from unionizing, even though the other airlines with unionized FA's are offering pilot SILs. It makes zero sense from any perspective.

queuetip
03-27-2020, 05:11 PM
The feeling I’ve gotten from listening to the skynet videos and trying to read between the lines is that other groups complained about the pilots getting SILs.

Interestingly, with the extra $600 a week that the stimulus includes in unemployment insurance, there's a chance some folks will make more on unemployment than they would employed. If they did receive 50% of their pay, most wouldn't qualify for unemployment in several states and it would be advantageous for their financial position to just take a leave where they could take unemployment. It'll be interesting to see if they get approved for unemployment since it is voluntary, would love to hear how it shakes out for 'em. Granted, I'd rather work than have my hat in my hand, but maths be maths.

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 05:37 PM
Interestingly, with the extra $600 a week that the stimulus includes in unemployment insurance, there's a chance some folks will make more on unemployment than they would employed. If they did receive 50% of their pay, most wouldn't qualify for unemployment in several states and it would be advantageous for their financial position to just take a leave where they could take unemployment. It'll be interesting to see if they get approved for unemployment since it is voluntary, would love to hear how it shakes out for 'em. Granted, I'd rather work than have my hat in my hand, but maths be maths.

Pretty sure the extra $600 has a sunset clause that has it ending July 31st.

buckleyboy
03-27-2020, 05:42 PM
I haven’t read the full details but this was from a reputable source (senator).
Did you just say you believe a politician?
Somebody get a thermal scan on fishforfun. STAT!

Edit: I see you edited. Call off the thermal scan!

fishforfun
03-27-2020, 05:46 PM
Did you just say you believe a politician?
Somebody get a thermal scan on fishforfun. STAT!

Edit: I see you edited. Call off the thermal scan!

:D........

beis77
03-27-2020, 06:23 PM
Yeah that's some pretty bad optics alright. I wonder how high up the chain they will go to own this blunder. If it stops with him then maybe they can set him up as a fall guy.

They’re not going to own it. As others have said before, they’ll control the narrative. In this case, it will be spun as the pilots weren’t willing to make the same sacrifice as the other employee groups by accepting a reduction in hours. There will be no mention of LOA 20 and the concessions so far that our group has made.

That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the company does turn around and offer SILs within the week; after all, “cash is king” and SILs are a gimme.

GogglesPisano
03-27-2020, 06:34 PM
That said, I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the company does turn around and offer SILs within the week; after all, “cash is king” and SILs are a gimme.

I would not bet against this.

saturn
03-28-2020, 11:47 AM
SWA flight attendants have even been offered a 50% of guarantee paid leave. Delta flight attendants... actually all workgroups, should be comparing themselves to their peers at other airlines. Just like we the pilots do. That's the standard to compare what's fair or not. No more in-fighting.

Gunfighter
03-28-2020, 12:42 PM
SWA flight attendants have even been offered a 50% of guarantee paid leave. Delta flight attendants... actually all workgroups, should be comparing themselves to their peers at other airlines. Just like we the pilots do. That's the standard to compare what's fair or not. No more in-fighting.

ALPA should put this on the billboard by HQ and on a banner in all IFS lounges across the system. I think Delta just secured a union for Flight Attendants. I’m more inclined to offer assistance on the next FA union drive after the SIL response.

GucciBoy
03-28-2020, 12:44 PM
SWA flight attendants have even been offered a 50% of guarantee paid leave. Delta flight attendants... actually all workgroups, should be comparing themselves to their peers at other airlines. Just like we the pilots do. That's the standard to compare what's fair or not. No more in-fighting.


They can do whatever they want as far as I’m concerned. I understand that we aren’t owed the 4% raise all the non-cons got recently because we didn’t negotiate it. So unless someone has video evidence of an employee group being opposed to the raise because “the pilots are getting a different deal” I remain unconcerned with their feelings regarding unpaid leave.

3 green
03-28-2020, 12:57 PM
It would not surprise me if Delta threatens furloughs after the bailout time period is over. Or they may go the other way and offer SILS. I guess time will tell. I'm betting they bash the pilots and use threats.

Grapple
03-28-2020, 01:54 PM
They got what they wanted with April bidding relief, changed their minds (?) after they achieved that short term $$$ goal and like it was said above, wouldn't be a surprise to see them offer SILs once they realize the savings to the bottom line. They could point their fingers at AMR & UAL Pilots as well as SWA FAs, anything to deflect blame from themselves while they cut costs.

Kilroy
03-28-2020, 02:02 PM
It would not surprise me if Delta threatens furloughs after the bailout time period is over. Or they may go the other way and offer SILS. I guess time will tell. I'm betting they bash the pilots and use threats.

if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.

GogglesPisano
03-28-2020, 02:08 PM
if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.

How many training events equates to 7,000 furloughs?

How many years would that take?

Grapple
03-28-2020, 02:10 PM
Training would halt operations with that many furloughs....going that deep seems a bit too drastic.

Kilroy
03-28-2020, 02:11 PM
How many training events equates to 7,000 furloughs?

How many years would that take?


I don’t know I just hope this ends soon. But my fears are getting stronger.

Tailhookah
03-28-2020, 02:12 PM
They can do whatever they want as far as I’m concerned. I understand that we aren’t owed the 4% raise all the non-cons got recently because we didn’t negotiate it. So unless someone has video evidence of an employee group being opposed to the raise because “the pilots are getting a different deal” I remain unconcerned with their feelings regarding unpaid leave.


Exactly...

4fans
03-28-2020, 02:24 PM
It seems like if they had to furlough 6000 pilots they would have started already. Most likely they are gonna see how this shakes out and then once people are allowed to leave their house and start buying tickets again they can chart a course that is based on something real. Until then, stockpile cash, learn your burn rate, cut costs where possible. If this all ends up being a bad dream with no furloughs, you will have a better sense of your personal finances and a bunch of cash to buy something fun.

The Localizer
03-28-2020, 02:30 PM
if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.

if we have to furlough 7000 we are the next pan am

dc10guy
03-28-2020, 03:42 PM
if we have to furlough 7000 we are the next pan am

I agree, if it is above 6000 we are done. Considering the number of retirements the next year or two.

badflaps
03-28-2020, 03:47 PM
I agree, if it is above 6000 we are done. Considering the number of retirements the next year or two.
But they will still be able to sell tickets.

dc10guy
03-28-2020, 03:55 PM
But they will still be able to sell tickets.

can you say virtual airline.

C5Drvr
03-28-2020, 04:34 PM
can you say virtual airline.


That’s called a travel agency.

badflaps
03-28-2020, 06:13 PM
That’s called a travel agency.
You broke the code.

sailingfun
03-28-2020, 06:17 PM
if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.

If the company needs to furlough that many it’s going to be out of business.

Bergman
03-28-2020, 06:41 PM
if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.

oh FFS. It could also end up being zero. Lighten up, Francis.

80ktsClamp
03-28-2020, 07:15 PM
Kilroy has a long history here of predictions like that. He's batting at 0, so that's a good thing.

weekendflyer
03-28-2020, 08:21 PM
if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.
the company would never recover from 7000 furloughs.

beis77
03-29-2020, 12:37 AM
the company would never recover from 7000 furloughs.
I think the neighborhood of 2-4000 is more realistic, not factoring in retirements (early and mandatory). I’m guessing we go into Oct/Nov with an active list in the 10,000 -11,000 range after retirements and not including any reductions to ALV to keep pilots on property. If that’s too few, they can always rapidly recall some folks back, if it’s too many, then they at least have room to handle the ramp up/expansion as the public starts flying again in real numbers.

I agree that if we’re cutting 7000 pilots, then Delta is going belly up. Frankly, I can’t see a scenario where that happens. I think the government would consider another bailout before letting one of the big 4 go under. Especially considering they’re all in relatively similar financial positions - granted some have more cash than others (not trying to debate specific financials). But they’re all close enough in that if one goes under, the others are already going to be crumbling at that point too. If we get to that point, then we have much bigger problems as a country/society.

53x11
03-29-2020, 03:39 AM
If Delta furloughs, I’d suspect it would be in waves. I just don’t see them furloughing a large number all at once. That’s the advantage of so many fleets. An airline like Southwest, with one fleet type, wouldn’t have that problem. We can’t furlough large numbers all at once, due to the resulting training churn. If we furlough, I’m guessing a couple smaller waves maybe 6 months apart. (Just guessing)

dbrownie
03-29-2020, 06:42 AM
What will be a massive cost besides the furlough is the Displacement and Downgrade of pilots.

That is the other paycut that really hurts.

Superpilot92
03-29-2020, 06:51 AM
if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.

possibly the dumbest thing i've read on this forum and thats saying a lot....:rolleyes:

53x11
03-29-2020, 06:58 AM
possibly the dumbest thing i've read on this forum and thats saying a lot....:rolleyes:

Yep, I agree. Can we bring back TOTD? :D

GogglesPisano
03-29-2020, 07:00 AM
If Delta furloughs, I’d suspect it would be in waves. I just don’t see them furloughing a large number all at once. That’s the advantage of so many fleets. An airline like Southwest, with one fleet type, wouldn’t have that problem. We can’t furlough large numbers all at once, due to the resulting training churn. If we furlough, I’m guessing a couple smaller waves maybe 6 months apart. (Just guessing)

Each "wave" is another 500 - 1,000 training events.

Banzai
03-29-2020, 07:11 AM
Each "wave" is another 500 - 1,000 training events.
That depends. If we’re retiring entire airframes, and the furloughs mainly affect NB Bs (like me), then you might be looking at more base moves than training events.

53x11
03-29-2020, 07:15 AM
That depends. If we’re retiring entire airframes, and the furloughs mainly affect NB Bs (like me), then you might be looking at more base moves than training events.

If you’re retiring entire airframes (fleets), you’re displacing CA’s too. They gotta go somewhere. Wish there was a easy button to push to figure it all out.

Grapple
03-29-2020, 07:20 AM
...and many more commuters will be created...

2StgTurbine
03-29-2020, 07:27 AM
...and many more commuters will be created...

But I thought people only choose to commute :rolleyes:

TurbineDriver
03-29-2020, 07:34 AM
I suspect with so many people commuting and empty airplanes the company will offer relief on commuting policy in a more permanent manner. Possibly positive space for commuters for several years? Practically everyone will be commuting.

gloopy
03-29-2020, 07:36 AM
possibly the dumbest thing i've read on this forum and thats saying a lot....:rolleyes:

Dumbest thing so far. Won't take long for someone to go off ala "I heard that DL is going to..." based only off of spastic drivel like that.

gloopy
03-29-2020, 07:39 AM
I suspect with so many people commuting and empty airplanes the company will offer relief on commuting policy in a more permanent manner. Possibly positive space for commuters for several years? Practically everyone will be commuting.

But but but, muh flight attendants!

There's a union drive going on right now, and that is by far the foremost priority. We may or may not go completely out of business but let's backburner that and concentrate on trying to sway a couple percent of undecided votes so we don't end up with a union because if we did there's no way we could ever compete with all the competitors who have unionized FA's already.

B-school genius.

Yoohoo1
03-29-2020, 07:43 AM
If Delta furloughs, I’d suspect it would be in waves. I just don’t see them furloughing a large number all at once. That’s the advantage of so many fleets. An airline like Southwest, with one fleet type, wouldn’t have that problem. We can’t furlough large numbers all at once, due to the resulting training churn. If we furlough, I’m guessing a couple smaller waves maybe 6 months apart. (Just guessing)


I really hope we don’t furlough but FWIW, here’s some numbers after 9/11.
After 9/11, there were 1310 furloughs at Delta, not sure how many at Northwest. At Delta, 400 were furloughed November 1 and after that approx. 50/month til May ‘03.

beis77
03-29-2020, 07:46 AM
I really hope we don’t furlough but FWIW, here’s some numbers after 9/11.
After 9/11, there were 1310 furloughs at Delta, not sure how many at Northwest. At Delta, 400 were furloughed November 1 and after that approx. 50/month til May ‘03.
How big was the seniority list back then? Just curious how many pilots total.

53x11
03-29-2020, 07:47 AM
I really hope we don’t furlough but FWIW, here’s some numbers after 9/11.
After 9/11, there were 1310 furloughs at Delta, not sure how many at Northwest. At Delta, 400 were furloughed November 1 and after that approx. 50/month til May ‘03.

Thx for that info. If we did furlough that would be a good example of how it would probably play out . Numbers could be different but should follow the basic path.

Yoohoo1
03-29-2020, 07:55 AM
How big was the seniority list back then? Just curious how many pilots total.

Approx 10,200.

beis77
03-29-2020, 08:00 AM
I really hope we don’t furlough but FWIW, here’s some numbers after 9/11.
After 9/11, there were 1310 furloughs at Delta, not sure how many at Northwest. At Delta, 400 were furloughed November 1 and after that approx. 50/month til May ‘03.
How long after May ‘03 til Delta started recalling folks?

newKnow
03-29-2020, 08:04 AM
They can do whatever they want as far as I’m concerned. I understand that we aren’t owed the 4% raise all the non-cons got recently because we didn’t negotiate it. So unless someone has video evidence of an employee group being opposed to the raise because “the pilots are getting a different deal” I remain unconcerned with their feelings regarding unpaid leave.
Bingo.

(Said like the Oracle from the Matrix.).

Yoohoo1
03-29-2020, 08:19 AM
How long after May ‘03 til Delta started recalling folks?

Now that I think about the furloughs, I think they stretched June/July ‘03. Believe it was November/December ‘03 when recalls started. I was furloughed only seven months but know some were furloughed five months. Long story but Delta used force majeure clause (called FM1) to furlough 1,060 due to 9/11 until the arbitrator stopped it in early ‘03. Then, during the Iraq war in ‘03, Delta used FM2 to furlough 250 more. The arbitrator stopped those furloughs fairly quickly and required recall. Thereafter, a bunch of us from FM2 sat around for a few months until training was assigned. I think the last recalls were in ‘06.

WakeWash
03-29-2020, 12:26 PM
I’m sure I know the answer since the contract states a recall will return in new hire standing, but do recalls come back with their original hire date and longevity? Or does it start all over when they walk back through the doors?

FL370esq
03-29-2020, 12:33 PM
I’m sure I know the answer since the contract states a recall will return in new hire standing, but do recalls come back with their original hire date and longevity? Or does it start all over when they walk back through the doors?

You come back with both....

gloopy
03-29-2020, 12:37 PM
if this doesn’t end in 60 days I bet furloughs will start. It could end up being 5 to 7 thousand.

So this 7000 number has already made the rounds and bounced back to me from an OAL friend who heard it from other OAL friends. "DL is talking about..." and "its on the DL forums that..."

See how stupid, and how fast, this modern telephone game gets?

And you know you just made that up, totally and completely, based off of fear and nothing else right now.

Speed Select
03-29-2020, 01:04 PM
Could an absurd number of furlough notices be sent out then later not acted upon on the premise of “Rapidly changing market conditions,” etc?

A move like that would reveal a lot about our group for exploitation in the future.

DALMD88FO
03-29-2020, 02:04 PM
So this 7000 number has already made the rounds and bounced back to me from an OAL friend who heard it from other OAL friends. "DL is talking about..." and "its on the DL forums that..."

See how stupid, and how fast, this modern telephone game gets?

And you know you just made that up, totally and completely, based off of fear and nothing else right now.

The number may have come from BS's update a couple days ago where he said that we only needed 6,900 pilots to fly the May schedule. Just a guess.

Humboldt
03-29-2020, 02:11 PM
Just looking at what's flying around the country, looks like the entire May schedule will be 737's and 320's.

TED74
03-29-2020, 02:27 PM
Just looking at what's flying around the country, looks like the entire May schedule will be 737's and 320's.

Makes sense to me. Pilots at all the bases; size is about right to scale up on legs when needed.

gloopy
03-30-2020, 07:05 AM
The number may have come from BS's update a couple days ago where he said that we only needed 6,900 pilots to fly the May schedule. Just a guess.

Right. But to extrapolate that into an actual furlough number right now is beyond unreasonable.

Scoop
03-30-2020, 07:43 AM
Now that I think about the furloughs, I think they stretched June/July ‘03. Believe it was November/December ‘03 when recalls started. I was furloughed only seven months but know some were furloughed five months. Long story but Delta used force majeure clause (called FM1) to furlough 1,060 due to 9/11 until the arbitrator stopped it in early ‘03. Then, during the Iraq war in ‘03, Delta used FM2 to furlough 250 more. The arbitrator stopped those furloughs fairly quickly and required recall. Thereafter, a bunch of us from FM2 sat around for a few months until training was assigned. I think the last recalls were in ‘06.


Very accurate post. Here is the DAL South timeline going from memory. Perhaps someone from the North can also post their timeline.

Last New hire Class at DAL was July or August 2001. We had peaked at about 10,400 Pilots.
9-11
Big displacement Bid fairly quickly.
First wave of 400 furloughs starts in November 2001.
Monthly furloughs of about 80/month mostly all coming from MCO which was where most of the junior guys were. It was a B scale and almost all the 727 FEs were displaced there awaiting furlough.
We paused furloughs for 1 month in January 2003. I guess they did not want guys calling in sick over the holidays.
The very next month, 31 January 2003 ( Feb Bid period) was the last of the Round 1 furloughs which went to about 1060 Pilots. The most senior furloughs were March 2000 hires. Note - DAL quickly parked most 727s and maybe we had a few L10s still flying all of which required FEs.
With the Gulf war in March DAL furloughs 250 more Pilot taking the total to 1310.
Arbitrator rules the 2nd wave of Furloughs violated our no furlough clause and orders DAL to recall this group.
The first recalls of the Furlough group 1 were July 2004. Considering the two months of furlough pay the most senior guys furloughed missed 16 paychecks if they accepted the July recalls. I believe we started recalls with groups of about 40-50 Pilots per month.

Not sure when the most junior DAL south guy was offered recall, if I had to guess I would say around 2006.

Scoop

clear4approach
03-30-2020, 07:56 AM
Very accurate post. Here is the DAL South timeline going from memory. Perhaps someone from the North can also post their timeline.

Last New hire Class at DAL was July or August 2001. We had peaked at about 10,400 Pilots.
9-11
Big displacement Bid fairly quickly.
First wave of 400 furloughs starts in November 2001.
Monthly furloughs of about 80/month mostly all coming from MCO which was where most of the junior guys were. It was a B scale and almost all the 727 FEs were displaced there awaiting furlough.
We paused furloughs for 1 month in January 2003. I guess they did not want guys calling in sick over the holidays.
The very next month, 31 January 2003 ( Feb Bid period) was the last of the Round 1 furloughs which went to about 1060 Pilots. The most senior furloughs were March 2000 hires. Note - DAL quickly parked most 727s and maybe we had a few L10s still flying all of which required FEs.
With the Gulf war in March DAL furloughs 250 more Pilot taking the total to 1310.
Arbitrator rules the 2nd wave of Furloughs violated our no furlough clause and orders DAL to recall this group.
The first recalls of the Furlough group 1 were July 2004. Considering the two months of furlough pay the most senior guys furloughed missed 16 paychecks if they accepted the July recalls. I believe we started recalls with groups of about 40-50 Pilots per month.

Not sure when the most junior DAL south guy was offered recall, if I had to guess I would say around 2006.

Scoop
Thanks for the history perspective. What were retirements like in those days? You mention furloughs of roughly 80/month. I think a skynet post referenced that we have about 50/month retirements this year and 60-70/month next year.

Buck Rogers
03-30-2020, 08:02 AM
Thanks for the history perspective. What were retirements like in those days? You mention furloughs of roughly 80/month. I think a skynet post referenced that we have about 50/month retirements this year and 60-70/month next year.

Sorry to say, but about the same. To protect their 50% lump sum distribution at least 2100 pilots bailed early(on the south side) over that time frame(2002-2006). Someone prolly has more specific numbers , but suffice it to say, it’s not gonna be the “good news” of not many retirements that some might have hoped for

gopher3
03-30-2020, 08:07 AM
Thanks for the history perspective. What were retirements like in those days? You mention furloughs of roughly 80/month. I think a skynet post referenced that we have about 50/month retirements this year and 60-70/month next year.

Sailing Fun would be a good source of info and more accurate numbers...but as I recall...DAL south also had a mass exodus of pilots who took an early retirement before the bankruptcy and pensions were terminated.

gopher3
03-30-2020, 08:08 AM
Sailing Fun would be a good source of info and more accurate numbers...but as I recall...DAL south also had a mass exodus of pilots who took an early retirement before the bankruptcy and pensions were terminated.

Buck beat me to it.

Buck Rogers
03-30-2020, 08:26 AM
Buck beat me to it.


Well, I like the positive thought process he was aiming for, so I’ll add this as a silver lining. Those were pilots who ran for the exit to protect their $$$. We do have some big retirement numbers coming . Add to that, ancillary pilots running for the exit to mitigate possible infection, or they justify it as “I already worked xxx years longer than age 60, or “I’ll go on long term medical”, make about the same especially if there is an ALV reduction. So, it is possible that retirements may mitigate possible furloughs more so than 2001.

Anybody know enough to address the run on the bank re long term disability?

I don’t know much about it(payout, hours, look back, or funding levels). But, I am cynical enough to believe, “follow the money”. If it is more beneficial to go on LTD than stick around, then that’s what you will see. (Nobody needs to get their panties in a wad. Not addressed at “you” individually, just the group as a whole. No pilot would ever do something marginally unethical to line his pockets(like calling in sick when they wer’nt)

casual observer
03-30-2020, 08:34 AM
Just looking at what's flying around the country, looks like the entire May schedule will be 737's and 320's.

Not going to be popular and I’m open to people who disagree

IF we are compelled to give relief to the company, an option is to adjust the reserve guarantee.

This issue has come about through no fault of anyone. The way it’s evolving, looks like 737 and 320 pilots will be flying full schedules and WB and other NB pilots not being called.

Not great, but if relief is compelled, adjusting the guarantee addresses the issue of the disparity of workload / compensation consequence of the circumstance and incentivizes the pilots the company wants to show up.

I’m open to why that’s a bad idea.

For disclosure, I’m on the 320.

BobZ
03-30-2020, 08:37 AM
Maybe we can negotiate min crew on the NB fleets to once again require a GIB.

As a means to build flying for the WB pilots.

MOTOJOE
03-30-2020, 08:41 AM
Or covid 19 xtra pay for those who have to fly🤑

casual observer
03-30-2020, 08:46 AM
Or covid 19 xtra pay for those who have to fly🤑

That would be great.

casual observer
03-30-2020, 08:47 AM
Maybe we can negotiate min crew on the NB fleets to once again require a GIB.

As a means to build flying for the WB pilots.

What’s a GIB?

Gspeed
03-30-2020, 09:01 AM
What were the total post-9/11 furlough numbers for Northwest? And how big was the NW pilot group during that period?

BobZ
03-30-2020, 09:04 AM
What’s a GIB?

Airline ancient history i guess. :)

Once upon a time when 2 pilot cockpits were certified PWA agreements had 3 crew member provisions. So to be contractually compliant there were 737s flying around with a permanent js occupant.....who came to be called the GIB. Guy in back.

Pilots resisted the 2 place cockpit development for obvious reasons of self interest.

I believe Delta was the DC-9 launch customer and was also the first pilot group to agree to fly with 2 pilots.

2StgTurbine
03-30-2020, 09:12 AM
And don't forget about the flight engineer panel on some 737s

casual observer
03-30-2020, 09:14 AM
Airline ancient history i guess. :)

Once upon a time when 2 pilot cockpits were certified PWA agreements had 3 crew member provisions. So to be contractually compliant there were 737s flying around with a permanent js occupant.....who came to be called the GIB. Guy in back.

Pilots resisted the 2 place cockpit development for obvious reasons of self interest.

I believe Delta was the DC-9 launch customer and was also the first pilot group to agree to fly with 2 pilots.

Nice. Thanks.

BobZ
03-30-2020, 09:16 AM
And don't forget about the flight engineer panel on some 737s

Seems i recall boeing had some kind of plan for that in 767 development

PurpleTurtle
03-30-2020, 09:25 AM
Airline ancient history i guess. :)

Once upon a time when 2 pilot cockpits were certified PWA agreements had 3 crew member provisions. So to be contractually compliant there were 737s flying around with a permanent js occupant.....who came to be called the GIB. Guy in back.

Pilots resisted the 2 place cockpit development for obvious reasons of self interest.

I believe Delta was the DC-9 launch customer and was also the first pilot group to agree to fly with 2 pilots.

and as I recall, the American pilots left ALPA over the decision to give up on the GIB strategy—according to “Flying the Line”.

badflaps
03-30-2020, 09:26 AM
Seems i recall boeing had some kind of plan for that in 767 development
The short '76 has a huge cockpit for just that reason I think Qantas actually had some with a panel.

McNugent
03-30-2020, 10:02 AM
The short '76 has a huge cockpit for just that reason I think Qantas actually had some with a panel.

Ansette did. Here’s a cheesy video with some shots of it. 2:50 is where it introduces the FE

https://youtu.be/Z412qiDfRio

badflaps
03-30-2020, 10:17 AM
Ansette did. Here’s a cheesy video with some shots of it. 2:50 is where it introduces the FE

https://youtu.be/Z412qiDfRio
Thanks for that. I had never seen the actual panel, pretty puny.

velosnow
03-30-2020, 11:53 AM
Or covid 19 xtra pay for those who have to fly🤑
If there ever a time for hazard pay, this is it.

Superpilot92
03-31-2020, 05:20 AM
The number may have come from BS's update a couple days ago where he said that we only needed 6,900 pilots to fly the May schedule. Just a guess.


thats the problem because that number was for May which is the peak of this mess and the peak of temporarily parking planes. That number isnt for 6-12-18 months from now but people are taking that number for May and running with it to fear monger.

WhiskeyDelta
03-31-2020, 10:41 AM
thats the problem because that number was for May which is the peak of this mess and the peak of temporarily parking planes. That number isnt for 6-12-18 months from now but people are taking that number for May and running with it to fear monger.



Exactly. It’s a temporary number after temporary drastic measures will be taken. This is still a day by day event. No need to look much farther ahead than that.