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View Full Version : 23K versus reroute


3 green
03-29-2020, 04:13 AM
A lot of pilots I've talked to are confused about what the difference is between 23K and reroutes. 23K applies before you sign in and reroutes apply once you sign in. As other threads have indicated, the Company cannot double 23K you unless it's something like a weather IROP and your city pair is listed on the the double 23K list. If you get double 23K(without being on the city list), that is illegal, and results in having the rotation removed and no recovery obligation.. A lot of the reroutes everyone is getting now is illegal. If they know about a trip(or turn) more than 14 hours out, then that trip must be attempted to be covered by a whiteslip or greenslip. An exception would be if they could not get a pilot into position thru a whiteslip or greenslip due to flight cancellations. Right now, the Company seems to be bypassing the whiteslip and greenslip requirement and going right to a reroute. I have looked at several reroutes that have been issued lately and see a high number that are illegal reroutes. I do not work for ALPA so verify the above info with them, but I'm almost 100% it is correct.


DWC CAP10 USAF
03-29-2020, 04:39 AM
A lot of pilots I've talked to are confused about what the difference is between 23K and reroutes. 23K applies before you sign in and reroutes apply once you sign in. As other threads have indicated, the Company cannot double 23K you unless it's something like a weather IROP and your city pair is listed on the the double 23K list. If you get double 23K(without being on the city list), that is illegal, and results in having the rotation removed and no recovery obligation.. A lot of the reroutes everyone is getting now is illegal. If they know about a trip(or turn) more than 14 hours out, then that trip must be attempted to be covered by a whiteslip or greenslip. An exception would be if they could not get a pilot into position thru a whiteslip or greenslip due to flight cancellations. Right now, the Company seems to be bypassing the whiteslip and greenslip requirement and going right to a reroute. I have looked at several reroutes that have been issued lately and see a high number that are illegal reroutes. I do not work for ALPA so verify the above info with them, but I'm almost 100% it is correct.

A few corrections:

1) While 23K is generally prior to sign in, and re-routes after, there is an exception. PWA 23.L.2.a states a REG pilot can be rerouted prior to airborne of the first flight segment if the rotation begins with a roundtrip in a single FDP that has been delayed, and the reroute is for another roundtrip in a single FDP that departs no ealier than original roundtrip, and they are returned to original rotation following the rerouted roundtrip.

2) Regarding knowing about the rotation more than 14 hour out, PWA 23.M.7 allows the scheduler to deviate from the 23.N and 23.O coverage ladders in order to "maintain schedule integrity". But if they do, the pilot that would/should have been awared the trip will recieve pay and credit for the scheduled value. This is why it is critical that when a guy/gal gets rerouted, they send the rotation to DALPA Scheduling so they can look to see if 23.M.7. was used and if so, they will make sure the skipped over pilot gets paid.

3 green
03-29-2020, 05:05 AM
2) Regarding knowing about the rotation more than 14 hour out, PWA 23.M.7 allows the scheduler to deviate from the 23.N and 23.O coverage ladders in order to "maintain schedule integrity". But if they do, the pilot that would/should have been awared the trip will recieve pay and credit for the scheduled value. This is why it is critical that when a guy/gal gets rerouted, they send the rotation to DALPA Scheduling so they can look to see if 23.M.7. was used and if so, they will make sure the skipped over pilot gets paid.

Thanks for adding details. It would be good to know exactly what "maintain schedule integrity" means. Knowing about a flight more than 14 hours out and electing not to cover it, and then waiting til it is close to departure and using reroute, should not be considered "maintaining schedule integrity".I have heard the company does not even have to software to alert them about rerouting and trips more than 14 hours out. Obviously, they do not want to know about those trips and violating the contract because it would really hamper the way they cover trips now(illegally).


waldo135
03-29-2020, 05:11 AM
I wonder if we could start a thread on FB (to somewhat protect anonymity here) where folks can post flights that have already been canceled. When you get rerouted, you check the list to see if itís been out there for days. If so, send the info into DALPA scheduling.

waldo135
03-29-2020, 05:13 AM
BTW, last GS NYC320A was on the 25th. Every day many trips sit there uncovered in open time until past sign in.

3 green
03-29-2020, 05:47 AM
I wonder if we could start a thread on FB (to somewhat protect anonymity here) where folks can post flights that have already been canceled. When you get rerouted, you check the list to see if itís been out there for days. If so, send the info into DALPA scheduling.
Something like this is a great idea. Getting paid for an illegal reroute results in big pay..Plus the whiteslip or greenslip bypassed from an illegal reroute gets paid out as well to someone.It adds up to a lot of cash going out to us..The Company has been giving these illegal reroutes for a long time(and it is much more prevalent now with what's going on) , and they are very difficult for pilots to track them to make sure it's legal.

GucciBoy
03-29-2020, 06:02 AM
A lot of pilots I've talked to are confused about what the difference is between 23K and reroutes. 23K applies before you sign in and reroutes apply once you sign in.

This is absolutely incorrect. Reroute is defined in Section 2 and Section 23. It has nothing to do with happening before or after sign-in. It is possible to be rerouted prior to sign-in, thatís why the contract prohibits it (with one exception).

DELTAFO
03-29-2020, 06:11 AM
Are reserve pilots considered rerouted if they are in the middle of a rotation and used to cover flying in open time? If that flight has been in open time for over 14 hours?

If yes, and CS made no attempt to cover that flight with a WS or GS, does the reserve pilot get RR pay and the passed over pilot get pay?

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-29-2020, 06:14 AM
Are reserve pilots considered rerouted if they are in the middle of a rotation and used to cover flying in open time? If that flight has been in open time for over 14 hours?

If yes, and CS made no attempt to cover that flight with a WS or GS, does the reserve pilot get RR pay and the passed over pilot get pay?

Under PWA 23 L.9., a RES pilot must 1) be scheduled to release >4 hours beyond your originally-scheduled release AND 2) be rerouted into an X-day. If you donít meet both of these, then youíre not due additional pay under PWA 23 L.9

DELTAFO
03-29-2020, 06:17 AM
Under PWA 23 L.9., a RES pilot must 1) be scheduled to release >4 hours beyond your originally-scheduled release AND 2) be rerouted into an X-day. If you donít meet both of these, then youíre not due additional pay under PWA 23 L.9
Makes sense, thanks.

Is that considered a reroute for 23.N or 23.O coverage sequence?

DWC CAP10 USAF
03-29-2020, 06:22 AM
Makes sense, thanks.

Is that considered a reroute for 23.N or 23.O coverage sequence?

Generally speaking, when stuff changes after the rotation has begun, its a reroute.

If scheduling uses 23.M.7 to skip steps of the coverage ladder, then someone is due money for the trip they should have got via WS or GS.

Grapple
03-29-2020, 07:58 AM
I think we have 120 days to get reroute pay corrected so make your notes and send to DALPA (after a few weeks) to confirm that your were paid correctly.

GunshipGuy
03-29-2020, 08:15 AM
This is absolutely incorrect. Reroute is defined in Section 2 and Section 23. It has nothing to do with happening before or after sign-in. It is possible to be rerouted prior to sign-in, thatís why the contract prohibits it (with one exception).

My trip was designated a RR. A week prior to the trip the first two legs were removed. Then, about 2 days prior to sign in, the last leg of day two was removed, as well as days 3 and 4. It made the trip non-commutable. But, from what I could tell, it was legitimate.