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View Full Version : Trans States Training Failures


coldpilot
05-29-2007, 02:35 PM
So, heard from a friend today that he busted his checkride on SOP's. He said that he was taught differently than the check airman wanted it done. Is this a common occurence at TSA? Do the Flight Safety instructors just teach you the systems and generic opeartions of the aircraft leaving you to study the company procedures? I just thought that they always trained you the way the company wanted you to fly. Any input from the TSA guys would be appreciated!


rickair7777
05-29-2007, 02:48 PM
So, heard from a friend today that he busted his checkride on SOP's. He said that he was taught differently than the check airman wanted it done. Is this a common occurence at TSA? Do the Flight Safety instructors just teach you the systems and generic opeartions of the aircraft leaving you to study the company procedures? I just thought that they always trained you the way the company wanted you to fly. Any input from the TSA guys would be appreciated!


That sounds pretty fishy for a 121 operation...usually if there's a procedures discrepency between training and the checkride, the instructor will back you up and argue his point with the examiner.

Although a have heard a few odd things about TSA training, that sounds more like sour grapes than anything else.

oldveedubs
05-29-2007, 03:52 PM
No offense to your friend but if he did everything that he was taught then i find it hard to believe that he failed ONLY because of that.


ExperimentalAB
05-29-2007, 04:32 PM
He wouldn't have failed only on SOP's...

But coming from someone who was in TSA's new-hire training this past winter (and now a certified ship-jumper LoL) I can tell you that those FlightSafety guys trained so much Chautauqua they ended passing it on to some of us (wrong callouts, procedures, etc...). In the end, your friend should have picked up on them and corrected himself...

BTW, what is the current wash-out rate there now?? It was 50% in my class.

NGINEWHOISWHAT
05-29-2007, 05:12 PM
BTW, what is the current wash-out rate there now?? It was 50% in my class.


Doesn't seem right, but I've seen wash out rates @ 75%.

Tom

shackone
05-30-2007, 04:29 AM
So, heard from a friend today that he busted his checkride on SOP's. He said that he was taught differently than the check airman wanted it done.

It's not unusual to have the blame for failure placed anywhere but on the shoulders of the person taking the check. I hear the 'my instructor taught me that' excuse all the time...more often than not, after asking the instructor, I find that not to be the case. No surprise since most of my time is spent with my own students...I recognize BS when I hear it.

Sometimes it is the case. In programs where instructors teach the same jet to different companies who have different procedures, mistakes happen. Those mistakes are usually procedural and seldom, if ever, are significant enough to merit a failure. Such things happen frequently in the checks that I give, and these mistakes are usually left for the debrief or corrected on the spot.

Do the Flight Safety instructors just teach you the systems and generic opeartions of the aircraft leaving you to study the company procedures? I just thought that they always trained you the way the company wanted you to fly.

Correct. Every attempt is made to teach the current company procedures as well as how to fly the jet.

Was this a line or sim check?

Was the check airman a FSI instructor or a company pilot? If company, it's not unusual for the sim check to be more oriented to line standards simply for the reason that the company instructor likely has never taught in the sim. Too often, line standards are more demanding that what is seen in the sim...the major example being the tempo of the check...the company pilot may not give the student as much time to set things up as a FSI evaluator might. As a result, the student gets rushed and makes mistakes that may not have otherwise been made.

AV8ER
05-30-2007, 05:19 AM
There is a book called the "SOP". Believe it or not, it has the standard opparating procedures in it...every one of them! Anyone in training should know that book from cover to cover, and if an instructor makes a mistake, pull out that amazing book, and show them. I was lucky and had a TSA instructor, and have heard some stories about the flight safety guys confusing our stuff and chautauquas, but I've never heard of them repeatedly doing it as long as the trainees are smart enough to point it out.

JoeyMeatballs
05-30-2007, 05:24 AM
I think the biggest problems is they are "Flight Safety" instructors from what I hear they could really care less, in-house is so much better, they actually care..............somebody correct me if im wrong I have only dealt with in-house

IndyAir Guy
05-30-2007, 06:57 AM
I was at TSA 8 years ago on the J-41. We had both in House and contracted instructors. It made it more difficult, but not impossible if you were flexible and understanding. 4 out of 16 got busts and 2 of the 4 where sent home. They said this was standard. Then 7 years later 4 out of 20 didnt make it through training for one reason or another (not all forced out) on the 747. These people are very high time guys who have been flying for over 15 years. Makes me believe that either you got it or you dont... either you understand and play the game or you dont.

SabreDriver
05-30-2007, 08:06 AM
I was at TSA 8 years ago on the J-41. We had both in House and contracted instructors. It made it more difficult, but not impossible if you were flexible and understanding. 4 out of 16 got busts and 2 of the 4 where sent home. They said this was standard. Then 7 years later 4 out of 20 didnt make it through training for one reason or another (not all forced out) on the 747. These people are very high time guys who have been flying for over 15 years. Makes me believe that either you got it or you dont... either you understand and play the game or you dont.

25% WTH over, sure looks like these companies do not know how to screen and hire the right people :eek: and that costs money, and lots of it. These folks are all supposed to be professional aviators, with current quals and lots of time? That level of attrition should be reserved for basic flight training (read: pre commercial/inst rating) not 121 ops training. JMHO, but your milage may vary...:cool:

ToiletDuck
05-30-2007, 08:20 AM
Do the Flight Safety instructors just teach you the systems and generic opeartions of the aircraft leaving you to study the company procedures?

Yes. Our Flight Safety instructor told us he's trained for over a dozen different companies. That he could teach us how to fly the aircraft but it was up to us to learn the SOPs and bring them into the sim.

shackone
05-30-2007, 09:53 AM
Yes. Our Flight Safety instructor told us he's trained for over a dozen different companies. That he could teach us how to fly the aircraft but it was up to us to learn the SOPs and bring them into the sim.

Correct again.

Profiles, callouts, and flows are a personal responsibility. Your instructor, no matter who he works for, can't teach something that is supposed to be memorized. He can only teach how to implement those procedures.

Same for emergency procedure knowledge...the instructor can teach how to do the procedure but he can't do the memorizing for the student.

Folks who come in with an "I want to be spoon fed" attitude have a difficult time. Others who have an "I'll do my part by preparing" do much better.

Short Bus Drive
05-30-2007, 10:22 AM
OK. What happens when a "student" has a question on how/which way the flows/call outs are supposed to be done properly? ie who says what first, who responds, etc...
The instructor should help in that aspect also.
This is one of my peeves with contracting out the training (per se).
My previous company would contract out Flight Safety in LGA for us. Then I would get the call to go down and "help" out students to get the procedures,flows,callout in the proper sequence. Because they are having trouble, failed due to a checkairman not satisfied by the way things "flowed", the FS instructors would add a little CommutAir stuff in to the procedures...

AND:
Another reason was that it was taking money from me, and the POI from the FAA (if it is still the same one) is a SCAB!!! (on the list).:p
OK, enough venting.

The other side of the coin, we have our own instructors, and things are still being taught a little different. Different opinions/techniques. BUT, they have meetings to pound these issues out.

shackone
05-30-2007, 10:33 AM
OK. What happens when a "student" has a question on how/which way the flows/call outs are supposed to be done properly? ie who says what first, who responds, etc...
The instructor should help in that aspect also.

As I said in my previous post, the instructor teaches how to implement the procedures.

This is one of my peeves with contracting out the training (per se).
My previous company would contract out Flight Safety in LGA for us. Then I would get the call to go down and "help" out students to get the procedures,flows,callout in the proper sequence. Because they are having trouble, failed due to a checkairman not satisfied by the way things "flowed", the FS instructors would add a little CommutAir stuff in to the procedures...

What in all of that was your 'peeve'.

Another reason was that it was taking money from me, and the POI from the FAA (if it is still the same one) is a SCAB!!! (on the list).:p
OK, enough venting.

What was 'taking money from you'? What relevance does the FAA have to this subject?

The other side of the coin, we have our own instructors, and things are still being taught a little different. Different opinions/techniques. BUT, they have meetings to pound these issues out.

As do others.

Short Bus Drive
05-30-2007, 10:44 AM
As I said in my previous post, the instructor teaches how to implement the procedures.

But some instructors don't teach the correct implementation of the procedures

What in all of that was your 'peeve'.

My "peeve" is the contracting out. The rest of "all that" was the explanation why

What was 'taking money from you'? What relevance does the FAA have to this subject?
The contracting out was "taking" money from me. And the FAA is the one overseeing this, and not stepping in when the washout rates start to rise.

As do others.

Agreed

shackone
05-30-2007, 11:29 AM
But some instructors don't teach the correct implementation of the procedures.

That could be said of any instructor of any type anywhere. Do you have anything specific in mind with regard to this discussion?

My "peeve" is the contracting out. The rest of "all that" was the explanation why...The contracting out was "taking" money from me.

How so?

And the FAA is the one overseeing this, and not stepping in when the washout rates start to rise.

I'm not sure this point has been made. What washout rates and where? And what for?

Short Bus Drive
05-30-2007, 01:19 PM
Yes All Knowing, Shackone, you are right in all aspects. I am sorry.
Do I pass now?
(Cooperate/Graduate)

This could go back and forth. You obviously don't understand what I am trying to convey. To answer your questions, look back in my previous posts.
1. Specifically, the CommutAir procedures, added to our procedures. Confusing.
2.Taking money, by me not being able to do some training. And then, I had to go down and retrain/brush up these pilots (on days I could've been doing something else), which I wouldn't have to do if in house instructors did in it the first place.
3. The washout rates/failures at my company at the time, and what is said to be like at TSA now (?)
4. For not following SOP for that company, using unapproved "techniques" taught by instructors

BTW, about the instructor thing... did you have BOTH the student and instructor there together when you asked if s/he taught or didn't teach s/he certain procedures?

shackone
05-30-2007, 04:20 PM
Yes All Knowing, Shackone, you are right in all aspects. I am sorry.Do I pass now?(Cooperate/Graduate)

No.

Putting your pointless comment aside, it ought to be obvious that the only person in this discussion with any first hand facts on this subject IS me. Now, if that hurts your feelings, too bad.

This could go back and forth. You obviously don't understand what I am trying to convey. To answer your questions, look back in my previous posts.
1. Specifically, the CommutAir procedures, added to our procedures. Confusing.

I didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday. Instructors make mistakes. FSI instructors make mistakes.

2.Taking money, by me not being able to do some training. And then, I had to go down and retrain/brush up these pilots (on days I could've been doing something else), which I wouldn't have to do if in house instructors did in it the first place.

I'm still not clear on why this has cost you money. Did you work those extra days for free? If so, talk to your union. Grieve it. Don't blame that on contract instruction.

Why didn't 'in-house' instructors do the initial training? Not enough of them?

3. The washout rates/failures at my company at the time, and what is said to be like at TSA now (?)

Let's deal with facts. If you have some on this issue, then use them. Otherwise, I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

4. For not following SOP for that company, using unapproved "techniques" taught by instructors

Again, facts, not conjecture. How many busts were due to students using techniques taught by FSI instructors that were contrary to the 'book'? Or is that just a whiny excuse that people use to explain away their own shortcomings?

BTW, about the instructor thing... did you have BOTH the student and instructor there together when you asked if s/he taught or didn't teach s/he certain procedures?

Never...the thought didn't come to me to do so. I've been instructing/giving checks for about 37 years now...military, civilian, entry level, recurrent, line checks, CA, FO, and FE, etc, etc. Sometimes the instructor is at fault...I had one of these that I had to fix this last week. But more often the student is at fault...either making excuses or misunderstood something that was said in training.

Call it whatever you want...checkitis, brainfarts, whatever...but don't blame it on the instructor. That's really low rent.

Short Bus Drive
05-30-2007, 05:38 PM
You did not hurt my feelings. Thanks for caring though.
I seem to have hit a little sore spot for you though. I would think after your 37 years of doing this you would let all this roll off your shoulder. (The one without the chip on it).
However, I know you will write something witty back, and I will be shown the way, because the only person here with the knowledge on this subject IS you.
So I bow to you, say I am sorry, and I will move on.
Good day, sir.

ToiletDuck
05-30-2007, 06:05 PM
Short Bus Drive I believe the answer to just about any of your questions is the POH. In ours it shows exactly who says what and when. All you have to do is pull it out and look at it while doing the callouts until you get them down. I do not fault my flight safety instructor for any reason.

If the instructors spent their time spoon feeding that crap they wouldn't have any time to fly the sim.

shackone
05-30-2007, 06:28 PM
You did not hurt my feelings. Thanks for caring though.
I seem to have hit a little sore spot for you though. I would think after your 37 years of doing this you would let all this roll off your shoulder. (The one without the chip on it).

You continue to make this personal. Doing so doesn't contribute to the subject. If you have something substantial to add to this subject, then let's see it.

Until then, the point is that sim instructors are there to help folks make it to IOE...if they make mistakes along the way, then we'll fix them.

flynavyj
05-31-2007, 07:58 AM
when i went through at trans states we had a 15% washout, which the company initially considered to be "high" but they didn't change anything to make it come down.

Our flight safety instructor didn't teach my sim partner and myself how to do the call outs, company profiles, and flows. While it would be nicer if they had, they didn't, because they often can confuse the two different companies (chautauqua and TSA) in STL. My partner and I studied profiles and flows for 2.5-3 hrs a day, had them memorized before each sim session, went in, flew the way we had studied, and passed w/o incident, the sim instructor kept a copy of our SOP at the instructor station while he taught, to ensure that call outs and profiles were being done correctly.

If company instructors were doing it, i think it would have been easier, if line pilots were doing it, i think it'd be just as difficult as the SIM is not flown like the Line and everybody knows that. There could be a lot of confusion between the two groups.



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