Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : $312/$218


jsled
08-07-2007, 02:55 PM
That was the left seat/right seat 12 yr hourly pay at UAL on the 747 before the bankruptcy. Does anybody pay that now? I didn't think so. I know a lot of people threw in an app back then. Some didn't get hired. Now they like to take swipes at ol' UAL on this forum. Well, that's ok. The pay sucks now. Only 2.5 years until the contract though. What will UAL pay then? Only time will tell.:cool:


CaptainMark
08-07-2007, 03:14 PM
how many guys made that rate at UAL...50 out of 9000???????....guys are bashing cargo captain rates on here too....fdx has almost 1500 WB captains making $225/hr and in the $240s when the contract ends...i hope you get what u want but with the likes of JB,VA and the rest of the LCCs competing with you, it will be tough..good luck!

threegreen
08-07-2007, 03:38 PM
FDX & UPS, have nothing on the contracts that UA, AA, DL had. The sad thing is that was 4-6 yrs ago.


jsled
08-07-2007, 03:46 PM
how many guys made that rate at UAL...50 out of 9000???????....guys are bashing cargo captain rates on here too....fdx has almost 1500 WB captains making $225/hr and in the $240s when the contract ends...i hope you get what u want but with the likes of JB,VA and the rest of the LCCs competing with you, it will be tough..good luck!

C'mon CaptainMark. UAL had 44 747's back then and 50 777's at a not too shabby $292/$197 per hour. But if you couldn't hold a widebody, there was always the narrowbody Airbus at $232/$158 per hour. You know, I talk to a lot of guys who were around this place in 1986 after the strike. They tell of the outrageous b-scale and the low morale and how everybody thought the airline pilot job would never pay what it "used to". These were the same guys earning $300/hour in 2003. My point? the future is uncertain my friend.;)

Lambourne
08-07-2007, 05:20 PM
[quote=CaptainMark;210648]how many guys made that rate at UAL...50 out of 9000???????..../quote]

?????????? Do you cargo guys even have an idea as to the make up of the major carriers?????

UAL has the largest US fleet of 400's and 777's, still even after BK. The pay is not what it was at C2K but it will hopefully be back again. So to answer your question, it was significantly more than 50 out of 9000 that made those rates. Also the other aircraft rates were rather large at the time.

I can only imagine what the FDX crewroom must be like at night. Lots of bravado and very little truth. The 0300 coffee call must be really interesting. "yep, we are so much better than those pax carriers, hrmph!" Get over yourself. It is a job and yours currently pays more because most people don't like the lifestyle associated with freight. The company has to throw money to get the job done. FDX I am sure is a great company but please leave the bashing aside as it makes you guys look like bitter little men that operate in the dark, literally and figuratively.

de727ups
08-07-2007, 05:26 PM
"It is a job and yours currently pays more because most people don't like the lifestyle associated with freight."

I think it pays what it does because UPS and Fedex have always made money and never had a problem with bankruptcy.

EDC757
08-07-2007, 05:35 PM
C'mon CaptainMark. UAL had 44 747's back then and 50 777's at a not too shabby $292/$197 per hour. But if you couldn't hold a widebody, there was always the narrowbody Airbus at $232/$158 per hour. You know, I talk to a lot of guys who were around this place in 1986 after the strike. They tell of the outrageous b-scale and the low morale and how everybody thought the airline pilot job would never pay what it "used to". These were the same guys earning $300/hour in 2003. My point? the future is uncertain my friend.;)

I like how you clean things up at the end. There are ups and downs. And if this is the lowest that UAL can go then I am looking forward to the way up again. It could have been worse: Eastern, PanAM, Delta. ( just kidding Delta).

CaptainMark
08-07-2007, 05:44 PM
lambourne...



I only fly daytime...largest fleet..30 747s..wow! how about 122 MD-10-11s...and 52 777s..wow..how about 120 A300/310s...i remember running into UAL guys in hotels and they were "too cool for school" with that new contract...all the sudden u r back to reality...those 8 legs a day must be getting to you!..us bitter little men will spend 20 to 25 years as widebody captains at our current 225$/hr payrate u make fun of....747 captain at UAL...what 5 years MAX!...just reality..good luck with your contract..i hope u send payrates soaring again..even though i am messing with you a little:D....u guys did set the bar for everyone else...lighten up!

CaptainMark
08-07-2007, 05:47 PM
C'mon CaptainMark. UAL had 44 747's back then and 50 777's at a not too shabby $292/$197 per hour. But if you couldn't hold a widebody, there was always the narrowbody Airbus at $232/$158 per hour. You know, I talk to a lot of guys who were around this place in 1986 after the strike. They tell of the outrageous b-scale and the low morale and how everybody thought the airline pilot job would never pay what it "used to". These were the same guys earning $300/hour in 2003. My point? the future is uncertain my friend.;)

just trying to spice things up a little:D that purple tails forum is the same crap every day!


btw..i get all my UAL info from my FOs...ex UAL:eek:

Lambourne
08-07-2007, 06:14 PM
lambourne...



I only fly daytime...largest fleet..30 747s..wow! how about 122 MD-10-11s...and 52 777s..wow..how about 120 A300/310s..

You have 52 777's??? Can you show me a picture of one flying revenue? Oh yes the MD10. One man's trash......

Glad we could the heavy lifting for the payrates. That has been our history here at UAL, doing the ALPA work that others are too lazy to do. How many times have you guys been in and out of ALPA? I can never remember if you are ALPA or your own union as it changes so often.

CaptainMark
08-07-2007, 06:20 PM
no ...u have 30 747s and 52 777s...we have 122 md-11s and 120 airbusses...seems like u r doing the bashing...and we do the heavy lifting...millions of pounds a day...that's alright..u r confused..the other day i ran into a captain who said he hated his UAL job and wanted to know if i could help him get hired...he has been there 20 some years!..yikes.

don't worry about me..worry about JB, VA, SKYBUS and SWA...

in case you need it...:D

https://www.pilotcredentials.com/careers/index.php?a=profile


BTW...i'm joking..u seem a little serious...8 legs tomorrow?

ToiletDuck
08-07-2007, 06:22 PM
What about UPS.

GIANT PILOT
08-07-2007, 06:44 PM
This is going to get interesting ...................... these Freight vs. Pax debates are always lively:p


"Freight is Great!"

POPA
08-07-2007, 06:51 PM
This is going to get interesting ...................... these Freight vs. Pax debates are always lively:p


"Freight is Great!"

I've never heard of a "Brown Boxes Bill of Rights," which is enough to base my decision on. :p

Young Jack
08-07-2007, 07:48 PM
I wonder how many people at cargo have apps at the paxs'. I wonder how many paxs' have apps at the cargo...

WatchThis!
08-07-2007, 08:00 PM
Now they like to take swipes at ol' UAL on this forum. Well, that's ok. The pay sucks now. Only 2.5 years until the contract though. What will UAL pay then? Only time will tell.:cool:

A swipe, if you call it that, needs to be taken in context and you frame that perfectly. The bashing, while not personalized, was laughing about your colleague's claim that UAL is attracting the best of the best, and it will be their last airline career interview.

Today's UAL is trailing the pack in many areas, your management wants to merge the airline, your union doesn't have contractual protections to protect what's left of a shattered career. I don't wish you any ill will but those are facts.

By the time you get a pay raise, what will that be, almost a decade of brining up the industry rear? Good luck guys I hope you can rape Tilton as bad as he has you. I just don't see UAL causing qualified applicants to trip over themselves to apply, there isn't anything there.



?????????? Do you cargo guys even have an idea as to the make up of the major carriers????? I can only imagine what the FDX crewroom must be like at night.

Yes, it's brutal working for a company that makes a billion per quarter, is able to afford the pilot contract, and has competent management. Aside from that we just brag about the new toys and places we went on vacation.

Oh yes the MD10. One man's trash......

Yep, the MD10, paid for and pays for itself several time each year, cool huh? Speaking of trash, I commercialed the other day on a UA 777, do you guys ever clean those things? Seriously, it was disgusting.

jsled
08-07-2007, 08:07 PM
I wonder how many people at cargo have apps at the paxs'. I wonder how many paxs' have apps at the cargo...

You would not believe the number of x-Fedex and x-UPS here at ol' UAL. That is why CaptainMark gets a kick out of the number of furloughed UAL guys over there at Fedex. It has come full cirle.

B757200ER
08-07-2007, 08:08 PM
FDX & UPS, have nothing on the contracts that UA, AA, DL had. The sad thing is that was 4-6 yrs ago.

AA never had it. But DL and UA did!

jsled
08-07-2007, 08:18 PM
Posted by WatchThis:

By the time you get a pay raise, what will that be, almost a decade of brining up the industry rear? Good luck guys I hope you can rape Tilton as bad as he has you. I just don't see UAL causing qualified applicants to trip over themselves to apply, there isn't anything there.>>>>>

Oh. I don't know, 1100 applicants in 2 weeks. And the paycut came in 2003. The second one in 2005. I think it will be considerably less than a decade when we get our raise. Lets not exaggerate. It is like your co-worker CaptainMark said. "UAL set the bar". So now since were not the highest paid pilot group anymore, were ****? There are many jobs in aviation. Probably 80% pay less than ol' UAL. Even now. Probably why 2/3 of the furloughees accepted recall. Good on you for jumping ship and going to the cargo side. That does'nt mean that is best for everyone. You will just have to wait until you retire to see if you did the right thing.

Jsled,
United Pilot and Bar Setter

CaptainMark
08-07-2007, 08:21 PM
all joking aside...u r correct;)

HSLD
08-07-2007, 10:50 PM
You will just have to wait until you retire to see if you did the right thing.


I hope we can all agree on that! You spin the wheel, you take you chances!

GIANT PILOT
08-08-2007, 05:08 AM
I wonder how many people at cargo have apps at the paxs'. I wonder how many paxs' have apps at the cargo...

There's probably way more pax guys looking at cargo jobs, than the cargo guys looking the other way. I know of no one here at Atlas personally who has any interest of flying passengers, heck I would take a big pay cut going to any of the majors!

Airbum
08-08-2007, 05:25 AM
Posted by WatchThis:

By the time you get a pay raise, what will that be, almost a decade of brining up the industry rear? Good luck guys I hope you can rape Tilton as bad as he has you. I just don't see UAL causing qualified applicants to trip over themselves to apply, there isn't anything there.>>>>>

Oh. I don't know, 1100 applicants in 2 weeks. And the paycut came in 2003. The second one in 2005. I think it will be considerably less than a decade when we get our raise. Lets not exaggerate. It is like your co-worker CaptainMark said. "UAL set the bar". So now since were not the highest paid pilot group anymore, were ****? There are many jobs in aviation. Probably 80% pay less than ol' UAL. Even now. Probably why 2/3 of the furloughees accepted recall. Good on you for jumping ship and going to the cargo side. That does'nt mean that is best for everyone. You will just have to wait until you retire to see if you did the right thing.

Jsled,
United Pilot and Bar Setter

I wish you guys the best of luck.! UAL/Delta did manage to achieve much higher payrates then UPS has done. In inflation based dollars its amazing. Currently the top pay in inflation based dollars at ups is almost the same as it was in 1998.

During the ups contract talks the paycutes taken by the legacy carriers was used against the pilots all the time from what I hear. If UAL gets a payraise maybe someday UPS guys can achieve the same payscale as the old Delta/UAL contracts.

It would be good for us all.

N618FT
08-08-2007, 05:54 AM
Wow, everyone's so bitter in this thread... they should rename this site bitterairlinepilotforums.com or letsgetintoa****ingmatch.com :)

tomgoodman
08-08-2007, 07:39 AM
You will just have to wait until you retire to see if you did the right thing.

Even then you could be in for a nasty surprise, if you're counting on a company pension. Retirement benefits (lump sum or annuity) should be in your name and held by solid financial institutions outside the airline industry.

ryane946
08-08-2007, 08:04 AM
no ...u have 30 747s and 52 777s...we have 122 md-11s and 120 airbusses.


This is true. But as Jsled brought up, United used to pay their A-320 pilots (some of their smallest airplanes) at $232/$158 per hour. That is about what FedEx pays their Airbus/MD-11 which are much larger. And United used to pay their 777 pilots $292/$197 per hour and their 747 pilots $312/$218 per hour.


Why am I mentioning this? I don't think we should be having a FedEx VS. United debate. FedEx was bringing up the rear before, now United is not doing too well. Obviously pilots like to defend their individual airlines, and that is fine. I know Jsled posted this thread because he is tired of people picking on United for bringing down the industry when just a few years ago they were the best of the best. And I agree with him. But lets turn this thread into something useful that can benefit us all.

FedEx/UPS settled for their current rates because they were put in a bad position. The legacy carriers had all taken MASSIVE paycuts of 30-40% and any raise (no matter how small) would have made them the industries best compensated. I have no doubt that FedEx/UPS would have rates above the United 2000 rates if the legacies had not taken the massive pay cuts.

Fortunately, FedEx and UPS are in a great position. Their contracts become ammendable after all of the legacy carriers contracts. FedEx and UPS may have the benefit of seeing how the legacy contracts pan out. Folks at United/American/Delta/etc... are very angry, and they deserve atleast a 30% pay raise (that will put them above FedEx/UPS again). Perhaps then FedEx/UPS can raise the bar again with their new contracts since their companies are making BILLIONS OF DOLLARS each year.
Hopefully next contract negotiations, FedEx and UPS can get "United plus 1%." Or perhaps more.

CaptainMark
08-08-2007, 08:48 AM
And United used to pay their 777 pilots $292/$197 per hour and their 747 pilots $312/$218 per hour.

i agree...used to pay..so get those rates up again so we can aim higher...fdx is attacked all the time on these threads about nightflying...3am departures..etc...i don't take it personally...to each his own...our contract was the richest in ALPA history mostly because 90% of our fleet is WB and 90% of the guys make the big rates...but i hope u can attain higher rates with all the LCCs undercutting you..seems like UAL could not afford that contract even without 911....just an opinion:D...good luck

MAGNUM!!
08-08-2007, 09:04 AM
FedEx/UPS settled for their current rates because they were put in a bad position. The legacy carriers had all taken MASSIVE paycuts of 30-40% and any raise (no matter how small) would have made them the industries best compensated. I have no doubt that FedEx/UPS would have rates above the United 2000 rates if the legacies had not taken the massive pay cuts.

Fortunately, FedEx and UPS are in a great position. Their contracts become ammendable after all of the legacy carriers contracts. FedEx and UPS may have the benefit of seeing how the legacy contracts pan out. Folks at United/American/Delta/etc... are very angry, and they deserve atleast a 30% pay raise (that will put them above FedEx/UPS again). Perhaps then FedEx/UPS can raise the bar again with their new contracts since their companies are making BILLIONS OF DOLLARS each year.
Hopefully next contract negotiations, FedEx and UPS can get "United plus 1%." Or perhaps more.

I like the way you talk...

ToiletDuck
08-08-2007, 09:05 AM
You mean like it's $347million earnings in second quarter 2000? Just a random one I picked to google. Don't know if they were all that good but doesn't look like they were pulling their hair out just yet.

Deez340
08-08-2007, 09:21 AM
Even then you could be in for a nasty surprise, if you're counting on a company pension. Retirement benefits (lump sum or annuity) should be in your name and held by solid financial institutions outside the airline industry.

I agree! I actually like our DC plan much better than our old DB plan for the reasons you mentioned but then again I'm young enough to make it work. you guys were screwed. the promises (DB plan) made to you should have been kept. Breaking their promise to me is not nearly as egregious a move. hope you're doing well.:)

de727ups
08-08-2007, 09:38 AM
"Currently the top pay in inflation based dollars at ups is almost the same as it was in 1998."

This is true. We do start getting COL adjustments later in the contract to make up for inflation, though. The F/O's, however, did get a pretty good raise on the last contract. Which they totally deserved, by the way.

grumman
08-08-2007, 06:10 PM
I think it pays what it does because UPS and Fedex have always made money and never had a problem with bankruptcy.

Right, I guess your pay rates have nothing to do with the pre-911 contracts that were negotiated by the "legacies" that the freight dogs love to bash?

Sure would be nice if a freight guy or two admitted on here that they had some luck too. FDX/UPS had pre-911 contracts that were pretty good, but behind UAL/DAL, but when it came time to renegotiate, their companies were raking in the profits while legacies were all going bankrupt. Now they were no longer "airline" pilots as far as pattern bargaining goes. More power to them in getting their deal, but memories are pretty short if freight guys don't think that legacy airline contracts are what led to their current pay, work rules and especially vacation. For the FDX crowd, do you guys really think that Fred would have paid you your current rates and given up trips touching vacation if the precedent had not been set by airlines? You're crazy if you don't thing that FDX/UPS contract negotiators used airline contracts leverage pre-911, but wisely chose to not be "airline pilots" in recent times.

Enjoy all your toys, time off and day flying, but a little humility and recognition of how you reached your prosperity would be refreshing.

By "you" I mean all the cargo guys who smuggly comment about how much they deserve their great deal without comment about how they have gotten their "deals" in previous years

CaptainMark
08-08-2007, 06:37 PM
Right, I guess your pay rates have nothing to do with the pre-911 contracts that were negotiated by the "legacies" that the freight dogs love to bash?

Sure would be nice if a freight guy or two admitted on here that they had some luck too. FDX/UPS had pre-911 contracts that were pretty good, but behind UAL/DAL, but when it came time to renegotiate, their companies were raking in the profits while legacies were all going bankrupt. Now they were no longer "airline" pilots as far as pattern bargaining goes. More power to them in getting their deal, but memories are pretty short if freight guys don't think that legacy airline contracts are what led to their current pay, work rules and especially vacation. For the FDX crowd, do you guys really think that Fred would have paid you your current rates and given up trips touching vacation if the precedent had not been set by airlines? You're crazy if you don't thing that FDX/UPS contract negotiators used airline contracts leverage pre-911, but wisely chose to not be "airline pilots" in recent times.

Enjoy all your toys, time off and day flying, but a little humility and recognition of how you reached your prosperity would be refreshing.

By "you" I mean all the cargo guys who smuggly comment about how much they deserve their great deal without comment about how they have gotten their "deals" in previous years


ok..i said you guys set the bar..for a while....flying tigers pilots were the highest paid airline pilots in the world for many years.....i guess you should thank the FTL pilots then......back to the cargo forum for us lowly fr8dogs..:D

A320fumes
08-08-2007, 07:46 PM
Deleted.............

CE750
08-10-2007, 04:59 PM
FDX & UPS, have nothing on the contracts that UA, AA, DL had. The sad thing is that was 4-6 yrs ago.


ain't it amazing how our expectations have gone down so much! :rolleyes:

Young Jack
08-10-2007, 05:14 PM
There's probably way more pax guys looking at cargo jobs, than the cargo guys looking the other way. I know of no one here at Atlas personally who has any interest of flying passengers, heck I would take a big pay cut going to any of the majors!


My point exactly. How many ex-cargo-current-pax guys are kicking themselves in the arse? Second year wide body at Freds place makes more than...Ah the list is too long.

Sasquatch
08-11-2007, 08:55 AM
My point exactly. How many ex-cargo-current-pax guys are kicking themselves in the arse? Second year wide body at Freds place makes more than...Ah the list is too long.

I don't feel sorry for those that left FDX for passenger jobs, that's for sure. They complained all the way into their pax jobs how bad night flying is. Yet we all know the real reason anybody left UPS or FDX in the past 10 years, it was to chase the juicy Terminal-walking airline pilot lifestyle.

FlyerJosh
08-11-2007, 09:12 AM
Which is better? Cargo or Pax? Neither!

Corporate!

All kidding aside- who gives a rip what you make as long as it pays the bills and you're happy?!?

I can guarantee that I make more per flight hour than every pilot on these boards that is unionized. The flip side is that I don't have anywhere near as big an annual salary. The flip side to that is I doubt that very many of you spent 258 days at home on the couch in the past 12 months while enjoying the benefits of a salaried position.

Do what makes you happy and meets your financial needs. Who gives a rip what other people think? I don't need to explain my motivations to accept/deny a particular job to anybody except for myself (and my family). Beyond that I could care less what others think.

Remember things come and go in cycles. Today's rose might be tomorrows dog (and vice versa).

RedeyeAV8r
08-11-2007, 09:13 AM
I don't feel sorry for those that left FDX for passenger jobs, that's for sure. They complained all the way into their pax jobs how bad night flying is. Yet we all know the real reason anybody left UPS or FDX in the past 10 years, it was to chase the juicy Terminal-walking airline pilot lifestyle.


Don't get cocky, Just because things seem rosy here, doesn't mean it will always be so. Live the Dream, enjoy it, but be humble because someday it might be your turn. Been there done that and don't want another T-Shirt

poor pilot
08-11-2007, 10:08 AM
C'mon CaptainMark. UAL had 44 747's back then and 50 777's at a not too shabby $292/$197 per hour. But if you couldn't hold a widebody, there was always the narrowbody Airbus at $232/$158 per hour. You know, I talk to a lot of guys who were around this place in 1986 after the strike. They tell of the outrageous b-scale and the low morale and how everybody thought the airline pilot job would never pay what it "used to". These were the same guys earning $300/hour in 2003. My point? the future is uncertain my friend.;)

The best part about that is the APC pay scale calc only goes up to 285. LOL Times a changen.

Trash Hauler
08-11-2007, 10:19 AM
"It is a job and yours currently pays more because most people don't like the lifestyle associated with freight."

I think it pays what it does because UPS and Fedex have always made money and never had a problem with bankruptcy.


Yep-I tell people to send their freight as a passenger.The seats are cheaper than mailing your junk and if we could put boxes in the seat it would be so much quieter!!!

A320fumes
08-11-2007, 08:40 PM
I don't feel sorry for those that left FDX for passenger jobs, that's for sure. They complained all the way into their pax jobs how bad night flying is. Yet we all know the real reason anybody left UPS or FDX in the past 10 years, it was to chase the juicy Terminal-walking airline pilot lifestyle.

I'd rather fly dirigibles than fly freight. Personal choice. And what makes you think any major airline pilot needs your sympathy?

MAGNUM!!
08-11-2007, 09:16 PM
And what makes you think any major airline pilot needs your sympathy?

Where have you been the past six years? Besides, once you close the door, does it really matter what's back there?

And, for others, can we get off this "night" stuff? I've been FDX for 3 years and half my trips have been day only. Freight goes 24/7. The senior guys don't have to fly nights if they don't want to. Hell, I fly nights out of choice. My duty day on the night turns is about 8-9 hours, max. The day turns can run 12-14.

Sideshow Bob
08-11-2007, 11:33 PM
Where have you been the past six years? Besides, once you close the door, does it really matter what's back there?

And, for others, can we get off this "night" stuff? I've been FDX for 3 years and half my trips have been day only. Freight goes 24/7. The senior guys don't have to fly nights if they don't want to. Hell, I fly nights out of choice. My duty day on the night turns is about 8-9 hours, max. The day turns can run 12-14.

That's rich from some Jet Blue/soon to be at Wal Mart pudknocker! But for the record I don't have any sympathy for passenger types, only pity. They will never see our pay rates or security, so they must really need to walk around terminals pointing out where the bathroom is...what a hobbyist.

jsled
08-12-2007, 04:46 AM
That's rich from some Jet Blue/soon to be at Wal Mart pudknocker! But for the record I don't have any sympathy for passenger types, only pity. They will never see our pay rates or security, so they must really need to walk around terminals pointing out where the bathroom is...what a hobbyist.

Never say never Bob. What does AA need to match you guys.....12%? Your rates are good, but as I pointed out they are nowhere near what UA and DAL had. Maybe on your next contract you can equal $312/hr.

A320fumes
08-12-2007, 05:14 AM
Where have you been the past six years? Besides, once you close the door, does it really matter what's back there?

To me........HELL YEAH.......Did I say HELL?......OK.

I've been at FedEx 3 years

How out you wait another, let's say .....27 years before you and your neophyte buddies start using the term "never" and "always"

On a side note, I actually wish you guys made $624/hour. It would help the profession and keep you less interested in what Major airline pilots post on our forums. You should feel lucky guys like me love flying pax, if we didn't, you probably would still be looking for a job. Now you concentrate on flying freight and I'll concentrate on flying pax. No need for your pity or sympathy. Let's try to respect each other's choices.

P.S. A lot of cargo guys make great, positive and thoughtful post in the "major" forum. You, on the other hand.....? There is a cargo forum.

320Driver
08-12-2007, 09:51 AM
Never say never Bob. What does AA need to match you guys.....12%? Your rates are good, but as I pointed out they are nowhere near what UA and DAL had. Maybe on your next contract you can equal $312/hr.

Have you guys actually looked at the UPS contract? Pay rate is just one factor, although EVERY Capt. GUARANTEED $220,000 is very impressive. The actual full package is even better- medical $90/month family/$1000 MAX out of pocket, A Fund, 12% B-fund based on W-2, reduced price stock availability, no uniform costs, First Class DH over 5.5 hrs, etc. I don't think we had a better FULL PACKAGE in 2000, and sadly, we'll most likely never see it in the near future. To mock them makes you look envious over what we never really EVER had...

Sideshow Bob
08-12-2007, 10:24 AM
Never say never Bob. What does AA need to match you guys.....12%? Your rates are good, but as I pointed out they are nowhere near what UA and DAL had. Maybe on your next contract you can equal $312/hr.

An AA 737 is within 12% of us? I stand corrected. Oh wait...everybody there is and will be a 777 CPT. My bad. :D

All BS aside after a furlough at a "real" airline in the 80's I started looking at where to work from an accountant's viewpoint instead of a pilot's. It has served me faily well. While never say never is valid, if you actually look at the financials nothing even comes close to FDX and UPS. But, on the occasional commercial (in first always for us in ANC) I'll be happy to point out where the nearest bathroom is so I can fell like a Marvin Mainliner.;)

Priority 3
08-12-2007, 10:29 AM
What 320Driver says is true.

Furthermore, end of contract rates here at UPS are the following, and they're much higher than most people realize.

$261.67/hour top captain pay ($255,128/year at guarantee)
$185.51/hour top first officer pay ($180,872/year at guarantee)

As for the rest of the contract... on balance it's quite good.

A320fumes
08-12-2007, 10:50 AM
What 320Driver says is true.

Furthermore, end of contract rates here at UPS are the following, and they're much higher than most people realize.

$261.67/hour top captain pay ($255,128/year at guarantee)
$185.51/hour top first officer pay ($180,872/year at guarantee)

As for the rest of the contract... on balance it's quite good.

Very happy for the professionals over @UPS/FEDEX. Hope you guys continue to keep the bar high.

FreightDawgyDog
08-12-2007, 04:06 PM
Lamebourne writes..

"The company has to throw money to get the job done. FDX I am sure is a great company but please leave the bashing aside as it makes you guys look like bitter little men that operate in the dark, literally and figuratively"

Other beauty's by Lamebrain..

"I am sure FedEx puts some nice spin on the "quality" of the hiring and training that it does. However, the hull losses you guys have had sure speak volumes. If FedEx were a scheduled pax carrier they would have been shuttered for the number of crashes they have had."

"I hope the UPS pilots are more concerned about safety than FE because I am going to start shipping all my stuff on them in hopes of my items arriving without being turned upside down and burned."

Dude doesn't realize "Castaway" was just a movie.


Anyway, check Lambourne's post history and you will see he is a serial cargo basher and obviously a victim of "cargo" envy. Same old Shiite, different day. Dude, just enjoy your job and get over that rejection from FDX/UPS. It doesn't mean your not a good pilot, maybe you just had a bad day. A little Stuart Smalley self affirmation might be in line here..

The bottom line is flying cargo has some great benefits, but isn't for everyone. Flying Pax has some great benefits, but isn't for everyone. One thing I will say is when you compare pay rates as the only factor in what makes a good contract you miss out on the meat issues like work rules, vacation and other QOL issues. I wouldn't give up FDX vacation for UAL's vacation for their old pay rates for example. I'd look at it really hard but in the end it's my time off that matters most. I'm not sure my fellow FDX pilots would all agree but that is why we have a vote! When you make that last flight west how much you made an hour won't really matter. It's how much time off you had to enjoy that money with loved ones you will wish you had more of.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled program "Unsolved Mysteries" where host Lamebourne attempts to prove a FDX pilot was behind the disappearance of Amelia Earhart, the Kennedy assassination, Watergate, Iran Contra and providing Barry Bonds with steroids.

Airbum
08-12-2007, 07:37 PM
What 320Driver says is true.

Furthermore, end of contract rates here at UPS are the following, and they're much higher than most people realize.

$261.67/hour top captain pay ($255,128/year at guarantee)
$185.51/hour top first officer pay ($180,872/year at guarantee)

As for the rest of the contract... on balance it's quite good.

inflation indexing the old UAL/Delta payrates to end of the ups contract would be :

$395/hour or so ( assumptions of 312 in 200/cola-2006/2%per year.

Don't let the dollar amount fool you. Its still about the same money as what they made in 1998.

Freightpuppy
08-12-2007, 08:51 PM
Flying Pax has some great benefits, but isn't for everyone.

Like what??????

Priority 3
08-12-2007, 10:14 PM
inflation indexing the old UAL/Delta payrates to end of the ups contract would be :

$395/hour or so ( assumptions of 312 in 200/cola-2006/2%per year.

Don't let the dollar amount fool you. Its still about the same money as what they made in 1998.

You're looking at the top rate which few pilots at UAL/Delta ever made. $395 would have ever only been a pipe dream, even without 9/11.

That said, I'm all for whoever can hold up the bar for pay. Today it's us, ABX, and FDX, and tomorrow it could be American with their upcoming Mega Fixit contract.

FreightDawgyDog
08-12-2007, 10:39 PM
"Like what??????"

Like more overall daylight flying, pass benefits, not stuck with just one or two other pilot's on your crew for days on end, etc. For the pilot's who like interacting with people I would think there would be more of a chance on a pax carrier. Anyway, my point is you can find good and bad in both. This silly battle about who has it better is a waste of time IMO. Of course I just wasted 5 minutes pointing that out....

Freightpuppy
08-12-2007, 11:17 PM
"Like what??????"

Like more overall daylight flying, pass benefits, not stuck with just one or two other pilot's on your crew for days on end, etc. For the pilot's who like interacting with people I would think there would be more of a chance on a pax carrier. Anyway, my point is you can find good and bad in both. This silly battle about who has it better is a waste of time IMO. Of course I just wasted 5 minutes pointing that out....


Daylight flying? I've flown more daylight flying at UPS than I've flown night. When I fly at night, I hear JetBlue, America West, Continental all at 3 am.

You mean the useless pass benefits? My future in laws have pass benefits on United through my fiancee. When they came out to see us this summer, we ended up buying them a ticket because Yonited decided to cancel a flight with 40+ seats open on it and the agent told them they would not get out of Chicago for 3 days. The flights were so full out of SFO on the way back, we just bought them another one way ticket. Aaaaah, yes.....the pass benefits....uh huh.

Not stuck with just one or two pilots on your crew. As opposed to what? A bunch of whiney catty flight attendants???? Sounds like a blast to me.

Once again I ask....

Like what?

Nashmd11
08-13-2007, 12:42 AM
Daylight flying? I've flown more daylight flying at UPS than I've flown night. When I fly at night, I hear JetBlue, America West, Continental all at 3 am.

You mean the useless pass benefits? My future in laws have pass benefits on United through my fiancee. When they came out to see us this summer, we ended up buying them a ticket because Yonited decided to cancel a flight with 40+ seats open on it and the agent told them they would not get out of Chicago for 3 days. The flights were so full out of SFO on the way back, we just bought them another one way ticket. Aaaaah, yes.....the pass benefits....uh huh.

Not stuck with just one or two pilots on your crew. As opposed to what? A bunch of whiney catty flight attendants???? Sounds like a blast to me.

Once again I ask....

Like what?


Girl, Your showing your ignorance again. I knew it wouldn't take long. You haven't been in Aviation very long have you.

Freightpuppy
08-13-2007, 12:45 AM
Girl, Your showing your ignorance again. I knew it wouldn't take long. You haven't been in Aviation very long have you.

Nope. How did you know oh mighty experienced non ignorant one? I just got my PPL last week in a 757 and UPS paid for it. :rolleyes:

What in the world would a stupid girl like me ever do without your infinite wisdom? I know. I'd be lost in space forever. Thank you so much for enlightening me.

GMAFB. Mr. Stud.

Airbum
08-13-2007, 04:08 AM
You're looking at the top rate which few pilots at UAL/Delta ever made. $395 would have ever only been a pipe dream, even without 9/11.

That said, I'm all for whoever can hold up the bar for pay. Today it's us, ABX, and FDX, and tomorrow it could be American with their upcoming Mega Fixit contract.

$335 vs ups's $255 (same assumptions) using the 757/767 rate. That smallest plane ups flys. The hourly rate at UPS is nowhere near what the pax have been able to achieve. The rest of the contract items such as schedules, medical, vacation etc are difficult to compare directly.

I'm with you all the way on whoever can raise the bar.

A320fumes
08-13-2007, 06:33 AM
Like what??????

Didn't you fly pax at one time?



"In general, Pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes"
----Ruskin

“Self-praise can be put in the same class as anything else you get for nothing”

-----Franklin

You must of had a rough time flying pax....we all have lately. I'd like to thank you for pointing that out for us....repeatedly. Enjoy your career, quietly, you might be able to recoup some class.

320Driver
08-13-2007, 06:40 AM
$335 vs ups's $255 (same assumptions) using the 757/767 rate. That smallest plane ups flys. The hourly rate at UPS is nowhere near what the pax have been able to achieve. The rest of the contract items such as schedules, medical, vacation etc are difficult to compare directly.

I'm with you all the way on whoever can raise the bar.

Able to achieve for what, about a year or so? Say what you want, the AVERAGE CAPT GUARANTEE at $250,000/YR (end of contract) would have been very difficult to achieve. Reminisce about the "good old days" if you want, (and that's what is was, days not years), but the FULL PACKAGE then was not as good as they have now. I point out the AVERAGE GUARANTEE because I'm about to get screwed AGAIN with this age 65 ruling. My career advancement will slow to a crawl so the dude who made "$312" can stay for another 5 years. You could give the AVERAGE CAPT here a 150% RAISE and we still wouldn't catch those guys! Would I switch now, NO. Do they owe us anything for the "good ole DAYS" contract, HECK NO! We were NEVER THERE...
P.S. If you think we were, post our OLD CONTRACT. I burned mine...

Perspective: A 3rd year FO at UPS/Fedex makes more GUARANTEED than the top A320 CAPTAIN here.
A 4th year FO makes more than a 757/767 CAPTAIN. Damn that hurts! I commend those guys for giving us something to shoot for...

Freightpuppy
08-13-2007, 09:05 AM
Didn't you fly pax at one time?





Why yes! But according to Mr. Stud Nash there, apparently I have no experience in that arena.

I probably enjoyed the first 2 seconds of it and that's about it.


BTW, since some people on here may be a little slooooooooowwww, I should probably point out that I was being slightly sarcastic in my first post. The pax thing is definitely not for me, but I'm glad some people prefer it. I'd rather fly dog crap than look at the way pax treat the airplanes these days. It bugged me when I first got into 121 flying and it bothers me now.

md11phlyer
08-13-2007, 01:04 PM
Girl, Your showing your ignorance again. I knew it wouldn't take long. You haven't been in Aviation very long have you.

I knew it was HMP with a new screen name! :D

Seriously guys, if you think we'll be at the top of the heap for our entire careers then you are sorely mistaken. I want UAL to get everything back and then some from Contract 2K because that benfits ALL OF US.

My buddy and I are already planning on rioting in the streets of Denver, flipping over cop cars and such, in an underground effort to fuel UAL's next negotiations. $400+ an hour for top Captains or the city burns! :p

A320fumes
08-13-2007, 03:36 PM
Why yes! But according to Mr. Stud Nash there, apparently I have no experience in that arena.

I probably enjoyed the first 2 seconds of it and that's about it.


BTW, since some people on here may be a little slooooooooowwww, I should probably point out that I was being slightly sarcastic in my first post. The pax thing is definitely not for me, but I'm glad some people prefer it. I'd rather fly dog crap than look at the way pax treat the airplanes these days. It bugged me when I first got into 121 flying and it bothers me now.

Yes, I recognized your attempt at sarcasm. What you actually accomplished was insult and immaturity. Your comment implied that you knew of nothing good about being a pilot at a major airline. And to say this on a major airline pilot forum is indeed classless. I sense a little narcissism also with regard to how "people" treat aircraft and putting the effort to achieve your goal then hating it after 2 seconds. It takes a special kind of person to fly pax or cargo, and be good at it at least. No one should ever let you near pax with that attitude, you'd hate it and subsequently, wouldn't be very good at it. The pax nightmare you experienced is over. Enjoy what your brethren UPS drivers have negotiated for you, and get some help. You don't have to bash pax to love cargo.

Freightpuppy
08-13-2007, 05:09 PM
Yes, I recognized your attempt at sarcasm. What you actually accomplished was insult and immaturity. Your comment implied that you knew of nothing good about being a pilot at a major airline. And to say this on a major airline pilot forum is indeed classless. I sense a little narcissism also with regard to how "people" treat aircraft and putting the effort to achieve your goal then hating it after 2 seconds. It takes a special kind of person to fly pax or cargo, and be good at it at least. No one should ever let you near pax with that attitude, you'd hate it and subsequently, wouldn't be very good at it. The pax nightmare you experienced is over. Enjoy what your brethren UPS drivers have negotiated for you, and get some help. You don't have to bash pax to love cargo.


This has got to be some of the most hilarious crap I have ever read on here. I'd say you are the one in need of some help if you are that offended and you got all that out of my post. Don't you have other better things to do than read way too much into something? Sounds like your skin is a little thin buddy.

Narcissism with regard to how people treat aircraft???? Huh????
If it doesn't bother you that they throw garbage on the floor as if it was a garbage dump, leave crap in the seatback pockets even though the Flight Attendants come by 10 times with a garbage bag, or let their kids stomp on crackers on the floor and then leave it for someone else to clean up after them, then I would say you are part of the problem. Have a nice day!

de727ups
08-13-2007, 05:29 PM
This is getting silly.