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View Full Version : AA Recalls


isla mujeres
08-09-2007, 03:48 AM
AA is increasing the recalls in October to 50. There will be 2 classes of approx 25/class. Class dates are tentatively set for Oct 3rd and 17th.


N2rotation
08-09-2007, 07:58 AM
How many still remain furloughed at AA? At the 50/month rate when will they all be back?

Foxcow
08-09-2007, 08:56 AM
According to the AA profile on the site, ~2570 are still on furlough.


HawkerJet
08-09-2007, 09:02 AM
A TWA/AA bud said he heard Eagle Captains might be moving up to AA prior to former TWA pilots being recalled. I asked if he meant the AA flow backs, he said no, regular Eagle pilots. Truth or fiction?

Flyby1206
08-09-2007, 10:12 AM
A TWA/AA bud said he heard Eagle Captains might be moving up to AA prior to former TWA pilots being recalled. I asked if he meant the AA flow backs, he said no, regular Eagle pilots. Truth or fiction?

There was a grievance filed dealing with TWA pilots being recalled before AE flowthroughs whom already had seniority #s on the APA list. I dont think there has been a decision made yet on the grievance, and I dont anticipate one until all of the recalls are complete. By that time it wont really matter.

There was another related grievance saying that there were 1500 TWA pilots who were never trained on the AA property, got furloughed/flowback to AE. Since they are being recalled now they are considered "newhires" and AE wants additional AA seniority #s issued to their flowthroughs waiting on #s. This has been ruled upon and apparently these 1500 TWA pilots will count as newhires, but no numbers have been issued and I believe the AE ALPA and APA are talking about ways to solve the problems so that both sides will be satisfied.

B757200ER
08-09-2007, 06:41 PM
There was another related grievance saying that there were 1500 TWA pilots who were never trained on the AA property, got furloughed/flowback to AE. Since they are being recalled now they are considered "newhires" and AE wants additional AA seniority #s issued to their flowthroughs waiting on #s. This has been ruled upon and apparently these 1500 TWA pilots will count as newhires, but no numbers have been issued and I believe the AE ALPA and APA are talking about ways to solve the problems so that both sides will be satisfied.

They aren't and won't be 'new-hires'. They were acquired when AA bought TWA in Jan 2001, and whether they were trained or not doesn't matter. They were AA pilots making AA wages under the AA contract with AA seniority numbers for up to 3 years until furloughed. When Eagle pilots with AA seniority flow up, if they're senior, they bid ahead of TWA pilots, but they won't get that opportunity until all AA pilots get recalled----around 2010.

Iowa Farm Boy
08-10-2007, 03:57 AM
And there you have it- the FINAL authority.

Flyby1206
08-10-2007, 05:05 AM
Heres a better explanation than I could come up with, copied from FI:
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=101876&page=2

Actually, both the TWA number generation grievance and the recall in seniority order grievances have already been heard by arbitrator LaRocco. He has already made his opinion and order on the TWA number generation grievance.

He never said the TWA LLC pilots were "new hires". He said that the positions that they are being recalled to are "new hire positions" as defined in Supp W/Letter 3. As such the Eagle pilots with AA seniority numbers will be called to class with them in AA seniority order. Additionally, Eagle pilots who elected flow through but were never given an AA seniority number because there were no new hire positions will be assigned AA numbers at 50% of the recalls of non AA-trained ex TWA-LLC pilots.

LaRocco asked AMR, APA, and ALPA to determine where the line is for "new hire positions". He also warned them that his opinion on the recall in seniority order grievance would be better addressed in a joint remedy while together determining the point of new hire positions. Like most arbitrators, they don't want to decide for the parties.

It won't be a while. It will be resolved fairly quickly. Any of the four parties can ask LaRocco to determine the point of "new hire positions" right now. There was a 60-day waiting period, which has already passed. As long as the negotiations are progressing, no one will ask for a ruling.

Not including any FIS the first non AA-trained ex TWA LLC pilot has starts class this month. The Eagle pilots with AA numbers ahead of them will be retro protected for pay and retirement.

The un-real AA numbers that Eagle pilots hold are about to become very real.

Oldfreightdawg
08-10-2007, 05:24 AM
How many still remain furloughed at AA? At the 50/month rate when will they all be back?

Offered recall: 750
Deferred: 371
Recalled: 377
Quit/not coming back: 76
Still furloughed: 2451
Total not yet called: 2080

presumably, the deeper we go into the list, the number of pilots not coming back will increase. 50/month is close to the max in terms of how fast the school house can train pilots, maybe 60/month. So math wise it should be 48-50 months, not counting age 65, or APA signing a contract that eliminates jobs.

HercDriver130
08-10-2007, 11:03 AM
the guys who defer... how long can they do that... or do they eventually have to resign or go back?

C17turtle
08-10-2007, 12:44 PM
the guys who defer... how long can they do that... or do they eventually have to resign or go back?

The contract states that an AA furloughee that defers has 3 years after the LAST furloughed pilot is offered recall. After that point he/she must return or be removed from the seniority list...

GliderCFI
08-10-2007, 07:30 PM
What's the estimate as to how many of those furloughed guys will actually come back eventually? And % of the overall AA group retiring in the coming years?

C17turtle
08-10-2007, 09:02 PM
What's the estimate as to how many of those furloughed guys will actually come back eventually? And % of the overall AA group retiring in the coming years?

Tough to say how many will come back. Will most likely look something like United's numbers, in the neighborhood of 1 in 3 eventually, but it's hard to say. We are approaching a group of all TWA furloughees and the recall rate with that group has been somewhat higher...

As for retirements, banning age 65 changes, there will be a good steady number for years to come, with significant retirements in the mid to late teens. Take a look at the "Major Airline Retirements" thread to get some good numbers...

FliFast
08-10-2007, 10:45 PM
Hi Glider,

Just to throw in an opinion or two:

First, as mentioned, furloughees can defer up to three years after the most junior furlough. So a small population could defer now, but decide that the gig they are doing now doesn't pay as well as AA and decide to return and also; they may sit on the sideline to make sure AA doesn't turn right back around and furlough them-especially if they just resigned from another airline.

As C17 mentioned above, American Airlines is about to reach the staple point, whereas 1988-89 TWA hires will be recalled. The significance is that most of these pilots will make more returning to AA because they are at the top of the payscale there. Slightly contradictory to my first paragraph, many of these employees will leave their current jobs to return to AA because the rate per hour is significant.

However, as mentioned by oldfreightdawg, as AA gets near the end of the seniority list, I think the number of recallees will dwindle because many who only had a year or so with TWA are working at better places and don't want to come to the strife that will ensue once the two pilot groups will be working side-by-side.

FF

Oldfreightdawg
08-11-2007, 07:01 AM
FF is probably the most correct, I'm no expert on Supp CC, but I think that TWA guys will have short wait for a captain job, at least the ones who are most senior, so I think most will elect to come back. In the '93 furlough, we had about 50% return. Here are the retirement numbers:

08: 382
09: 397
10: 358
11: 312
12: 308
13: 385
14: 475
15: 567
16: 620
17: 680
18: 732
19: 731
20: 744
21: 716

GliderCFI
08-11-2007, 07:12 AM
Thanks fellas

HercDriver130
08-11-2007, 11:14 AM
freightdawg....is that AA as a whole for retirement numbers? ( not taking age 60/65 in to the mix )

aa73
08-13-2007, 05:55 AM
but they won't get that opportunity until all AA pilots get recalled----around 2010.

I believe you're off by a good two years. At the current bypass rate, we should have everyone who does NOT defer recalled by next fall, and hiring off the street by early 2009.

We've already gone through 750 in just seven months of recalls, and that was with a SLOW start - 10/month. Now they are up to 50/month and rumored to go to 70/month by next year. At that rate, we'll burn through the whole list pretty quickly.

Of course, if age 65 passes sooner than thought, or some other event happens, my numbers will be off. But my numbers are based on nothing changing for a few more years.

73

B757200ER
08-13-2007, 07:35 AM
I believe you're off by a good two years. At the current bypass rate, we should have everyone who does NOT defer recalled by next fall, and hiring off the street by early 2009.

Man, you're optomistic! I'm just being conservative. I really don't believe any hiring at AA occurs until late '09.

What's your take on Letter 3 AE arbitration?

aa73
08-13-2007, 10:25 AM
Man, you're optomistic! I'm just being conservative. I really don't believe any hiring at AA occurs until late '09.

What's your take on Letter 3 AE arbitration?

It's good to be conservative in most cases. I'm usually guilty of spreading good news too fast.

In this case, I'm trying to be as factual as possible based on how fast we've burned through the furloughee list, and on the fact that AA has made several "noises" on increasing the monthly recalls. For example, the mad dash to hire more ground/flight instructors to ramp up the training center. Also, based on how crazy it's been for FOs and CAs with scheduling desperately calling line holders on their days off because they run out of reserves a lot.

I think we'll burn through the remainder of the furloughee list in about a year or so... and since deferalls can bypass for three years after the last pilot is recalled, I do foresee us hiring right after we get through the "non-deferal" list. Which to me is early '09.

As far as Letter 3 goes, I don't have a clue - I've heard many different opinions but that's one area where I'd be clueless about.

/r,
73

Oldfreightdawg
08-13-2007, 02:47 PM
freightdawg....is that AA as a whole for retirement numbers? ( not taking age 60/65 in to the mix )

If I understand your question correctly, not quite, we have 9000ish active pilots, so if I did the math right it's about 80% leaving in the next 14 years. The list ends at 2027, presumably includes all active pilots...(no furloughees)

22: 593
23: 502
24: 479
25: 412
26: 440
27: 393

Is that the answer you're looking for?

HercDriver130
08-13-2007, 03:15 PM
yes...pretty much ....thanks dawg.

FliFast
08-13-2007, 05:08 PM
AA73,

I haven't read through the contract that closely (too lazy, to be honest). If I defer this time around, then decide in two years to return, why would the company be in hiring mode with all the potential deferees ???

In other words, could I be recalled during a hiring cycle, or will hiring commence after all the furloughess have reached their three year deferal limit.

I thought at Delta and United, their hiring did not start to all furloughess were given their contractual chance to come back.

Thanks

FF

Oldfreightdawg
08-13-2007, 05:49 PM
AA73,

I haven't read through the contract that closely (too lazy, to be honest). If I defer this time around, then decide in two years to return, why would the company be in hiring mode with all the potential deferees ???

In other words, could I be recalled during a hiring cycle, or will hiring commence after all the furloughess have reached their three year deferal limit.

I thought at Delta and United, their hiring did not start to all furloughess were given their contractual chance to come back.

Thanks

FF

Not to answer for aa73, but here's the verbatum from Sec 17.W:

Furloughed pilots referred to above who are recalled to the employ of the
Company must respond to such recall in accordance with paragraph 2. above,
provided, however, such recalled pilot may defer return to the active flight
payroll for a period not to exceed twenty-four (24) months from the date of
postmark on the notice of recall or the date the least senior furloughee is
recalled, whichever date comes first, provided further that such deferring pilot
may cancel such deferral, in writing, and become eligible for recall at the next
recall date. When a pilot's deferral period has expired, such pilot will be eligible
for recall and such pilot will be recalled when the needs of the Company
require such recall. Pilots electing to defer their return to the Company in
accordance with the above must notify the Company by telegram, cablegram,
or certified letter, return-receipt-requested, of their decision and length of
requested deferral, within twenty-one (21) days of postmark on their recall
notice. Pilots electing to defer their return to active flight duty will continue to accrue occupational seniority,
but length of service for pay purposes shall not accrue during such deferral period.

There is a side letter of agreement that modifies the deferal period to 3 years.

FliFast
08-13-2007, 06:23 PM
Thanks OFD,

I'm not very clear sometimes, (sometimes for my own good). Do you think AA will wait till they exhaust all deferals before they start to hire or will they hire simulataneously with furloughees still on deferal.

I guess whAAt I'm AAsking is, will it be at least three more years before AA hires off the street.

Thx

FF

Oldfreightdawg
08-13-2007, 07:58 PM
Thanks OFD,

I'm not very clear sometimes, (sometimes for my own good). Do you think AA will wait till they exhaust all deferals before they start to hire or will they hire simulataneously with furloughees still on deferal.

I guess whAAt I'm AAsking is, will it be at least three more years before AA hires off the street.

Thx

FF

Sorry, didn't mean to throw book at you. My guess is yes, I think they will hire simultaneously with deferrals out. The agreement was fashioned with the knowledge that this was going to be a large and lengthy furlough. So instead of saying " we're going through the list once forward and backward then push the new hire button", they wanted to give the furloughees more flexibility. The letter of agreement states that the deferral can go 3 years past the recall notice of the most junior furloughee. Which means it if it takes 2 years to reach that pilot, it could be 3 more years after that before we see new hires if the company is not permitted to hire before the deferrals expire. Put another way, the most senior furloughee essentially has a 5 year deferral because his deferral period does not start until the last guy gets his recall notice. I believe once they reach the end of the list, they'll start new hire classes and dovetail the deferrals as they elect to come back.

How the company is going to manage it is a different story, I have no idea. Once a deferred furloughee decides they want to come back they'll get a class date, possibly displacing a new hire to a later class date. Rumor has it that recalls are going to 60-70/month, at that rate the end of the list is at 29-34 months. At that point they will know the state of deferrals/resignations and can plan accordingly. Personally I think that's partially the reason for the accelerated recall rate is the realization that it's going to take a lot of phone calls to get needed pilots back. My guess: new hire classes by mid '09.

aa73
08-14-2007, 04:15 AM
FF,

What OFD said. In other words, yes the Co can most definitely hire off the street with guys out on deferral. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to properly staff the cockpits (and wouldn't have allowed the 3 year deferral as such.)

73

NoWake200
08-14-2007, 06:10 AM
Wow would you look at this...we are all getting along.

See, it can happen when the news is somewhat good. ;) :D

Polarfr8dog
08-14-2007, 06:47 AM
Wow would you look at this...we are all getting along.

See, it can happen when the news is somewhat good. ;) :D

Yes, I guess I have to let the bad stuff go as well. So please join me in this song: Cumebyeya my Lord (group hugs go along) Cumebyeyaaaa. Now if we could just get that longevity back.:D I'll just be upset at one person only from here on out and that's the guy that made the nasty comments about K-Mart and we f-ed you because we could.

aa73
08-14-2007, 08:39 AM
Kumbayaaahhh!!

Historically at AA, longetivity has been negotiated for the furloughees once they're all back on the property. I will definitely fight for it.

NoWake200
08-14-2007, 10:04 AM
Yes, I guess I have to let the bad stuff go as well. So please join me in this song: Cumebyeya my Lord (group hugs go along) Cumebyeyaaaa. Now if we could just get that longevity back.:D I'll just be upset at one person only from here on out and that's the guy that made the nasty comments about K-Mart and we f-ed you because we could.

GREAT I was doing so dAAmn well......now it is back to medicine cabinet! :mad: :p

FliFast
08-14-2007, 10:59 AM
It's my opinion, that 60-70 recalls per month might not happen. A buddy of mine just got recalled, an early '89 hire for TWA, and was given three weeks off because of a lack of instructors and a backlog at FU.

Kumbayah.

FF

Oldfreightdawg
08-14-2007, 01:02 PM
It's my opinion, that 60-70 recalls per month might not happen. A buddy of mine just got recalled, an early '89 hire for TWA, and was given three weeks off because of a lack of instructors and a backlog at FU.

Kumbayah.

FF

No surprise there. I guess I should clarify, it will be 60-70 recall NOTICES per month. That gets to the end of the list faster to figure out who's deferring or quiting. How many they can actually bring back per month is another question entirely.

Peace

aa73
08-14-2007, 01:24 PM
It's my opinion, that 60-70 recalls per month might not happen. A buddy of mine just got recalled, an early '89 hire for TWA, and was given three weeks off because of a lack of instructors and a backlog at FU.

Kumbayah.

FF

Hence the massive recall of ground instructors to accomodate a bigger amount per month. Look for January or so by the time they get all caught up. Keep the faith brother!

73

swaayze
08-15-2007, 08:26 AM
The wrench here is the Eagle flowthroughs. Those with numbers should be accomodated in there somewhere (that's a whole other thread) and that will take up to the first 400 "street" slots. Then we'll have another potential 750 with numbers generated by the TWA newhire grievance that could take the next few hundred street slots. So, it may be a lot longer for true off the street hiring at AMR unless you want to start at Eagle (don't laugh too hard yet: there's lots of chatter that AMR has finally realized they need to offer a longer term benefit to attract sufficient newhires to Eagle. With the Letter 3 (flowthrough LOA) mess and the grievances pending there are supposedly some productive global negotiations ongoing amongst ALPA, APA, and AMR). Time will tell but there's way too much going on to predict actual street newhires at AA just yet.

Oldfreightdawg
08-15-2007, 08:46 AM
Swaayze

Can you elaborate on Letter 3? I've seen it referred to, but I really don't know what it is.

THX

swaayze
08-17-2007, 08:35 AM
L3 is the Eagle version of the flowthrough/flowback agreement. I think it's Supplement W (?) of the APA book.