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adjacentidea
08-09-2007, 11:52 AM
Here is a link to a boingboing article on VA's inaugural passenger flight. Pics, too.

http://www.boingboing.net/2007/08/08/getting_high_with_ri.html


N570UP
08-09-2007, 01:06 PM
Sure beats traveling on [email protected] carriers like SWA.

Congratulations to the traveling public, they are the biggest winners.


Go VX!

Thedude
08-09-2007, 03:57 PM
That article really did say that much other than hearlding why one should fly Virgin.


tincan
08-09-2007, 08:55 PM
Oh where is Velocipede now? I dissagreed with almost everything he said, but I haven't seen his antics on VA for months now. I'll bet he is with VA now, or better yet Skybus...:eek:

FLYBOYMATTHEW
08-09-2007, 10:26 PM
Cool stuff. I just wonder what they will do when all of the technology starts to become dated. The electronics must cost a fortune to repair and replace. Do the other Virgin fleets worldwide have this type of tech as well?

Another thing that came to mind with all of this superfluous wiring and gadgetry was Swissair 111. Remember the MD-11 that crashed into the Atlantic killing everyone on board after a fire ignited in the IFEN (In-Flight Entertainment Network) wiring in the overhead panel?

captjns
08-09-2007, 10:46 PM
Good for VA. Hopefully the VA product will be on a par with their big brother counterpart and treat their crews and passengers with dignity. The true test will come when a cancellation, diversion, or lengthy delay occurs.

Nortonious
08-09-2007, 11:10 PM
Sure beats traveling on [email protected] carriers like SWA.
Dude, what's up with that?!! ****. I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion, just wondering what we did to earn your scorn.

Anyway, I found the following article quote to be somewhat interesting:
I'm so sick of bad experiences lately on airlines like JetBlue and Southwest.
If WX and/or ATC delays were the major cause of the writer's dissatisfaction, then I'd say it's naive to think VX will be immune to their effects. If it's regarding customer service, then WN usually does well in that arena and hence has low complaints. Regardless, we are certainly geared to keep this rep in the face of competition from any/all carriers.

I suspect VX will be a worthy opponent on many levels. Nothing like a little competition to refocus the troops.

Saabstory
08-10-2007, 05:52 AM
Sure beats traveling on [email protected] carriers like SWA.

Congratulations to the traveling public, they are the biggest winners.


Go VX!

Not fair. Two different airlines, with different approaches. SWA does what they do VERY well, if you want to argue that, you haven't been awake for the last 30 years. VX is not attempting to look much like SWA, but wouldn't mind having the same financial success! The public will make their choices based an several factors, most on $$, some on "extras". I hope Virgin America establishes itself as a serious choice in the marketplace & that it gains a favorable reputation from the public & those of us "in the business"...time will tell. In the meantime; you won't hear me bad-mouth Southwest.

captjns
08-10-2007, 06:05 AM
It seems that VA's fares, be it introductory or not, are better than the competition. Even their Trans-con first/business class fares are less expensive than AA, UAL or DAL. Perhaps with the war chests rebuilt since 9/11 the legacy carriers will once again regain the respect of the travelling public... provided however they start treating the travelling public with respect they deserve.

As for SWA and JB... they provide good, efficent, and couteous service at reasonable prices.

B757200ER
08-10-2007, 07:15 AM
It seems that VA's fares, be it introductory or not, are better than the competition.

As for SWA and JB... they provide good, efficent, and couteous service at reasonable prices.

I agree. Different carriers, different cultures and not comparible.

Eric Stratton
08-10-2007, 09:42 AM
yea to all you VA guys and supporters I say YEA!!! what a great opprotunity to lower the bar again. let's supply the public with low airfare at our expense. if they are so great they could charge enough to pay us at least industry standard, but what the hell the first few will get quick upgrades at least. nevermind anyone who is behind us. where is velecopide when we need him....I miss that guy.

ps if SRB isn't the main guy behind the airline why is he sticking is head out the cockpit window???

by the way what's with this different carrier thing? don't we all transport passengers? that's the main thing...

captjns
08-10-2007, 03:01 PM
By the way what's with this different carrier thing? don't we all transport passengers? that's the main thing...

We do carry passengers... however some with bigger chips on their shoulders than others. Remember... nobody is holding any aviator prisoner in their seats or jobs for that matter. There are always other jobs to be had at better pay. Perhaps not as much fun... but better pay.

As far as lowering the bar... well I think that was done when lower wages were agreed upon without an argument, fight or total unity amongst all airmen in the industry regardless of their airline affiliation.

stinsonjr
08-10-2007, 04:16 PM
VA certainly sounds appealing from the passengers point of view. SWA does a great job...but with the cattle call and full flights everywhere, you HAVE to have a great employee base to make it tolerable...and they do a great job of it.

VA and Skybus - two different start-ups, and different models. Both pay below par, but what other incentives are offered - stock?

How does Virgin Atlantic treat their pilots...both pay and work rules wise? This could be a good barometer of VA if it is successful.

Eric Stratton
08-10-2007, 04:44 PM
We do carry passengers... however some with bigger chips on their shoulders than others. Remember... nobody is holding any aviator prisoner in their seats or jobs for that matter. There are always other jobs to be had at better pay. Perhaps not as much fun... but better pay.

As far as lowering the bar... well I think that was done when lower wages were agreed upon without an argument, fight or total unity amongst all airmen in the industry regardless of their airline affiliation.

that's the sad thing, there is no unity among pilots anywhere and that's why things are falling. VA is even lowering it more though.

B757200ER
08-10-2007, 07:22 PM
yea to all you VA guys and supporters I say YEA!!! what a great opprotunity to lower the bar again.

ps if SRB isn't the main guy behind the airline why is he sticking is head out the cockpit window???

Sir Richard owns the franchise, that's why. Ever heard of BP Oil? How about Virgin Records? BAA? They all have businesses here in the US, as franchises.

VX seems to be a big hit, flights are filling up.

isgau8
08-10-2007, 08:22 PM
I have no memory of Sir Richard showing his face during the VA DOT app process. Now that he has slid one by the ineptitude that resides in D.C., we see him all the time. I wonder what all those here that are praising the VA startup will say when Alitalia or British Airways or Easyjet want to start flying from coast to coast in the U.S.?

HSLD
08-10-2007, 10:54 PM
Sure beats traveling on [email protected] carriers like SWA.

Congratulations to the traveling public, they are the biggest winners.


Go VX!

What's with the trolling?

You must be thinking of the "Airline Management Central" forums where wholesale attacks on the quality of a service product is deserved.

Airline labor, specifically pilots, do the best they can to move airplanes safely and unfortunately have little influence as to the tools available to other employee groups.

Repeat with me.....Airline Pilot forums (same job different uniform).

Saabstory
08-11-2007, 06:37 AM
I have no memory of Sir Richard showing his face during the VA DOT app process. Now that he has slid one by the ineptitude that resides in D.C., we see him all the time. I wonder what all those here that are praising the VA startup will say when Alitalia or British Airways or Easyjet want to start flying from coast to coast in the U.S.?

Yea...before ya know it people will be driving Hondas, watching Sony TV's, & drinking Heineken beers...we're all doomed. By the way, Virgin America is a U.S. owned company, by 75%. This argument is growing tiresome.

OrionTanker
08-11-2007, 07:44 AM
Hey N570UP,

What's with the hate for SWA? Someday you are going to need a lift home on SWA and it's not going to happen. I wish nothing but good luck with Virgin America.

N570UP
08-11-2007, 01:06 PM
Hey N570UP,

What's with the hate for SWA? Someday you are going to need a lift home on SWA and it's not going to happen. I wish nothing but good luck with Virgin America.

A guy can't support another carrier? Maybe I've had a bad experience with SWA?

Is there censorship on this forum?

N570UP
08-11-2007, 01:12 PM
What's with the trolling?

You must be thinking of the "Airline Management Central" forums where wholesale attacks on the quality of a service product is deserved.

Airline labor, specifically pilots, do the best they can to move airplanes safely and unfortunately have little influence as to the tools available to other employee groups.

Repeat with me.....Airline Pilot forums (same job different uniform).

Where did I say anything about the pilot group at SWA? It is their management who introduced the "grayhound" style air travel that is the target. Also it is a PFT outfit.

Go back and re-read the post.

Wingnutt
08-11-2007, 03:10 PM
What he said...



What's with the trolling?

You must be thinking of the "Airline Management Central" forums where wholesale attacks on the quality of a service product is deserved.

Airline labor, specifically pilots, do the best they can to move airplanes safely and unfortunately have little influence as to the tools available to other employee groups.

Repeat with me.....Airline Pilot forums (same job different uniform).

Wingnutt
08-11-2007, 03:11 PM
Him too...


Yea...before ya know it people will be driving Hondas, watching Sony TV's, & drinking Heineken beers...we're all doomed. By the way, Virgin America is a U.S. owned company, by 75%. This argument is growing tiresome.

ERJ135
08-11-2007, 06:10 PM
Don't know much about VX but I heard their call sign tonight in Jfk and I kinda like it. Its call sign is "Redwood"

isgau8
08-12-2007, 07:17 AM
Yea...before ya know it people will be driving Hondas, watching Sony TV's, & drinking Heineken beers...we're all doomed. By the way, Virgin America is a U.S. owned company, by 75%. This argument is growing tiresome.

So when Daimler bought Chrysler, did Chrysler become a Gernman company? SRB can get his financing from any firm he chooses that the law allows of course. Though financing, whether it be domestic or otherwise, does not determine a company's national identity. SRB smiling out the cockpit window of a shiny Virgin America A320, in my opinion, does. Study the DOT laws closely enough, and I am sure there is another way around cabotage other than "ownership".

isgau8
08-12-2007, 07:17 AM
Yea...before ya know it people will be driving Hondas, watching Sony TV's, & drinking Heineken beers...we're all doomed. By the way, Virgin America is a U.S. owned company, by 75%. This argument is growing tiresome.

So when Daimler bought Chrysler, did Chrysler become a Gernman company? SRB can get his financing from any firm he chooses that the law allows of course. Though financing, whether it be domestic or otherwise, does not determine a company's national identity. SRB smiling out the cockpit window of a shiny Virgin America A320, in my opinion, does. Study the DOT laws closely enough, and I am sure there is another way around cabotage other than "ownership".

Saabstory
08-12-2007, 08:08 AM
... SRB can get his financing from any firm he chooses that the law allows of course. Though financing, whether it be domestic or otherwise, does not determine a company's national identity. SRB smiling out the cockpit window of a shiny Virgin America A320, in my opinion, does. ....

So it's really all about appearances??

ewrbasedpilot
08-13-2007, 04:00 PM
The LAST thing this country needs is ANOTHER LOW COST CARRIER. The Northeast corridor is almost total gridlock every day, so adding MORE flights into that area is looking for disaster. SRB flies Virgin Express out of BRU. He managed to lower the bar as low as anyone could over there and is now HATED by the people in Belgium who work for his minimum wage carrier. Branson is a very smart guy.............unlike those in DCA running our country and giving away our labor for FREE. Bransons problem is like most other billionaires....................they like to keep the money for THEMSELVES and the hell with everyone else. :(

scangadah
08-13-2007, 08:26 PM
The LAST thing this country needs is ANOTHER LOW COST CARRIER. The Northeast corridor is almost total gridlock every day, so adding MORE flights into that area is looking for disaster. :(


So if VA charged $1000 each way and paid their pilots 200k per year that would make the Northeast corridor less crowded?

captjns
08-14-2007, 01:41 AM
The LAST thing this country needs is ANOTHER LOW COST CARRIER.

Why should passengers have to pay more money for a ticket and get substandard service as a hight cost carrier?

The Northeast corridor is almost total gridlock every day, so adding MORE flights into that area is looking for disaster.

During peak hours of operation... no difference than 20 years ago. So where's the disaster?

SRB flies Virgin Express out of BRU. He managed to lower the bar as low as anyone could over there and is now HATED by the people in Belgium who work for his minimum wage carrier.

Don't know what's in your coffee, but you are way off base ace. There are many low cost carriers, much larger than VE. And its not management that lowers the bar. It's the pilots and flight attendants... yes pilots and flight attendants that accept cuts in pay, benefits and quality of life.

Branson is a very smart guy.............unlike those in DCA running our country and giving away our labor for FREE. Bransons problem is like most other billionaires....................they like to keep the money for THEMSELVES and the hell with everyone else. :(

Where do you come with "giving our labor away for free"? You know EWR, like you, we have choices in airlines, and other careers if one feels that they are being abused with no remedy in sight.

No I'm not leaving management free of blame, but what ever they can get away with they will... and they have.

Vagabond Pilot
08-14-2007, 05:31 AM
I have no memory of Sir Richard showing his face during the VA DOT app process. Now that he has slid one by the ineptitude that resides in D.C., we see him all the time. I wonder what all those here that are praising the VA startup will say when Alitalia or British Airways or Easyjet want to start flying from coast to coast in the U.S.?

Yes, welcome to globalization. Haven't you noticed, it's been going on for some time now - and not just in the airline biz. Also, in case you don't know, "open skies" were ratified by the EU and the US DOT/FAA in Brussels earlier this year and is due to take effect next Mar. Under this treaty (which took approx. 10 years to thrash out), US carriers will be able to increase their frequencies to European cities they already serve but the most radical change is that they will also be able to fly non-stop or do intra-European flights as well. This will be a first and already the folks at MAXjet, Eos and other start-ups are relishing what may make or break 'em. The same reciprocity is not being made available for European carriers - at least not yet. So....how do you think they feel about that?
The whole thing is about politics and there's not a lot you or I can do about it other than watch!

As for SRB......he was there as this was a media event and it is one of his franchises after all. If you have read his bio and other business books, you would know that he is the master marketeer and brand seller. That's how he became a billionaire and ended up owning more than 100 different companies around the globe. Google virgin or branson and all will be revealed.

Like it or not, it's the shape of things to come and only time will tell if VX will succeed in the US.

Vagabond Pilot
08-14-2007, 05:35 AM
Don't know much about VX but I heard their call sign tonight in Jfk and I kinda like it. Its call sign is "Redwood"

Not that surprising since the giant redwoods are found predominantly in northern CA and the virgn color is red.
When National Airlines out of LAS were operating, their c/s was "redrock", named after the Redrock canyon just west of LV.
Just indicative of their corp. HQ and main base......

Pilotpip
09-08-2007, 09:30 PM
Where did I say anything about the pilot group at SWA? It is their management who introduced the "grayhound" style air travel that is the target. Also it is a PFT outfit.



How is paying for a type rating any worse than going to a carrier that will pay you about half as much in the first year (less than some make in their second year at a regional) and not give you any bennefits for 6 months? If you're not paying for your training at places like continental then I don't know what you're doing. Especially when you consider that you'd recoup the cost of a 737 type rating in about 6 months at SWA.

I don't agree with either, but I'd take the bennefits any day over the latter.

cactusmike
09-08-2007, 10:27 PM
US Airways West (AWA)has lost over 50 pilots in the last 3 months and I understand that a bunch have gone to VA. A lot of guys are betting that VA will be a better route than the dogpile we have going on now.

captjns
09-09-2007, 03:59 AM
Can't be worse than what they left behind.

Wingnutt
09-09-2007, 08:21 AM
Can't be worse than what they left behind.



Trouble with hiring too many from any one disgruntled group is the risk of dragging the old, ugly baggage over to the new carrier. The grass is not always greener and while we all agree that what ALPA has done, AGAIN with the merging of seniority or lack there of (speaking from a non US Air East or West)is wrong, things at a new airline like VA will not be all smooth sailing in the begining, and a whole group of bitter, angry pilots may not be the best thing for morale when and if things get tough.

B757200ER
09-09-2007, 03:28 PM
Trouble with hiring too many from any one disgruntled group is the risk of dragging the old, ugly baggage over to the new carrier. The grass is not always greener and while we all agree that what ALPA has done, AGAIN with the merging of seniority or lack there of (speaking from a non US Air East or West)is wrong, things at a new airline like VA will not be all smooth sailing in the begining, and a whole group of bitter, angry pilots may not be the best thing for morale when and if things get tough.

I agree with your post. I would hire many of those very qualified US and AWA pilots, but I wouldn't load up the new list with 50% of them, because when you start fresh, you want a different mix of pilots, not all from the same carrier with the same culture/procedures/style. A mix would probably produce better results.

captjns
09-09-2007, 04:08 PM
Trouble with hiring too many from any one disgruntled group is the risk of dragging the old, ugly baggage over to the new carrier. The grass is not always greener and while we all agree that what ALPA has done, AGAIN with the merging of seniority or lack there of (speaking from a non US Air East or West)is wrong, things at a new airline like VA will not be all smooth sailing in the begining, and a whole group of bitter, angry pilots may not be the best thing for morale when and if things get tough.

Not to worry... magagement has a way to manage the malevolent malcontents out out of their house.

jsled
09-12-2007, 04:54 AM
Yes, welcome to globalization. Haven't you noticed, it's been going on for some time now - and not just in the airline biz. Also, in case you don't know, "open skies" were ratified by the EU and the US DOT/FAA in Brussels earlier this year and is due to take effect next Mar. Under this treaty (which took approx. 10 years to thrash out), US carriers will be able to increase their frequencies to European cities they already serve but the most radical change is that they will also be able to fly non-stop or do intra-European flights as well. This will be a first and already the folks at MAXjet, Eos and other start-ups are relishing what may make or break 'em. The same reciprocity is not being made available for European carriers - at least not yet. So....how do you think they feel about that?
The whole thing is about politics and there's not a lot you or I can do about it other than watch!

As for SRB......he was there as this was a media event and it is one of his franchises after all. If you have read his bio and other business books, you would know that he is the master marketeer and brand seller. That's how he became a billionaire and ended up owning more than 100 different companies around the globe. Google virgin or branson and all will be revealed.

Like it or not, it's the shape of things to come and only time will tell if VX will succeed in the US.


Not exactly a "first" as UAL flew intra-Europe with 727's in the 1980s. Not to mention Pan Am before that. UAL found it hard to make a profit over there and pulled out.

B757200ER
09-17-2007, 06:57 PM
Not exactly a "first" as UAL flew intra-Europe with 727's in the 1980s. Not to mention Pan Am before that. UAL found it hard to make a profit over there and pulled out.

TWA and Pan Am did it in the 70s/80s, UAL didn't until after they bought PA routes in '91. PA had a virtual monopoly on routes within Germany to/from Berlin, as Lufthansa couldn't service Berlin until mid-1990s.

jsled
09-17-2007, 08:13 PM
TWA and Pan Am did it in the 70s/80s, UAL didn't until after they bought PA routes in '91. PA had a virtual monopoly on routes within Germany to/from Berlin, as Lufthansa couldn't service Berlin until mid-1990s.

You are right. I did know that UAL inherited it from Pan Am, just got the dates mixed up. Thanks.

Al Aska
09-18-2007, 09:19 AM
The same reciprocity is not being made available for European carriers - at least not yet. So....how do you think they feel about that?
The whole thing is about politics and there's not a lot you or I can do about it other than watch!

Who cares how they feel... It is about money! They want into this market because ... there is far more coin here than in all the other passenger markets combined!] You want to give your job up to somebody from a country who's socialized airline will be allowed to come in here and fly all over! Go ahead! Just do not wine when your handing out towels in the steam room for the Air ( insert airline ) pilots and management! The world can be an ugly place... It is Never Fair!

RedeyeAV8r
09-18-2007, 09:53 AM
TWA and Pan Am did it in the 70s/80s, UAL didn't until after they bought PA routes in '91. PA had a virtual monopoly on routes within Germany to/from Berlin, as Lufthansa couldn't service Berlin until mid-1990s.

Correction to UAL's Europe operations. UAL only bought LHR Heathrow slots from Pan AM.

Pan AM's 727 Berlin operation was bought by Delta. I believe it was finally shut down around 1995. Nobody bought TWA's Paris operation.

AMR also bought some Heathrow slots from TWA.

UAL bought Pan Am's Pacific operation (747 SP's and L-1011's and NRT slots and fly through route authority from Pan AM. It was as still is a crown Jewel for UAL.

No American PAX carrier flies intra Europe anymore. Code Sharing shut that down.

TenderWings
09-18-2007, 04:07 PM
Swa experience is crap i agree.

B757200ER
09-18-2007, 06:53 PM
Correction to UAL's Europe operations. UAL only bought LHR Heathrow slots from Pan AM.

Pan AM's 727 Berlin operation was bought by Delta. I believe it was finally shut down around 1995. Nobody bought TWA's Paris operation.

AMR also bought some Heathrow slots from TWA.

When UAL bought LHR slots from PA, they also acquired 5th freedom rights to fly Intra-Europe. They chose to feed B-747/767 flights from LHR to USA with B-727s for a few seasons, in the early '90s. They flew from places like BRU/AMS and CDG to LHR with 727s, and had crews TDY to London. It was a great deal, just like PA and TW had, especially in summer.

PA's Berlin hub was bought by DL in '91, but almost all flying was moved to FRA. This was seperate from LHR slots/routes/5th freedoms.

TWA had a large CDG operation, including a European Dispatch Center, and basically fed flights (727s/767s) to CDG for JFK/BOS/PHL/STL and LAX. These 5th freedoms were purchased by AA in '01. AA also bought TWA's remaining (3) LHR routes/slots for $445 million in '91. They were LHR-JFK/BOS/ORD.

Nortonious
09-18-2007, 07:50 PM
Swa experience is crap i agree.
Again with the SWA hatin! Man I was actually learning something from reading this thread and then BAM, another punch in the gut. Dare I ask what axe you have to grind?

Anyway, thanks for the info B757200ER, Redeye, jsled. Good stuff for a guy new to the industry.

B757200ER
09-19-2007, 07:30 AM
Again with the SWA hatin! Man I was actually learning something from reading this thread and then BAM, another punch in the gut. Dare I ask what axe you have to grind?

SWA hatin'? Who here hates SWA? I LUV SWA, always have...they're the BEST to jumpseat/nonrev on in the industry!

Nortonious
09-19-2007, 07:39 PM
SWA hatin'? Who here hates SWA? I LUV SWA, always have...
Not you bro - I was trying to figure out TenderWing's issues with SWA. Maybe he'll let loose with his "Fourth Ever APC post" and let us know. Maybe he's just mad cuz we kick off scantily clad Hooters waitresses:cool:

Anyway, thanks for the props, and thnaks again for the insight on your earlier posts.

B757200ER
09-20-2007, 06:43 AM
Maybe he's just mad cuz we kick off scantily clad Hooters waitresses

Now THAT I take issue with-----did you SEE that chick? SMOKIN!!!!

TangoBar
09-30-2007, 09:41 PM
...I LUV SWA, always have...they're the BEST to jumpseat/nonrev on in the industry!

Agreed! The FAs seem to hand out extra peanuts and drinks every time I ride. :D

Fins Up
10-12-2007, 07:49 AM
Oh where is Velocipede now? I dissagreed with almost everything he said, but I haven't seen his antics on VA for months now. I'll bet he is with VA now, or better yet Skybus...:eek:

Since he is persona non grata (sp?), he has moved over to another forum called jet-careers.com to cause hate and discontent there. I would say that site has a larger percentage of young'uns trying to learn about the business so he feels more powerful with folks who don't necessarily have the ammo to refute any of his opinions.

Kingjay
12-01-2007, 03:45 PM
I have to also agree that Southwest is always fantastic to jump seat on. I have always be treated very well. The friendly environment over there is infectious, heck I have helped by pushing a wheel chair passenger down to the plane on my way to meet the captain, carried a bag for a less mobile passenger pre boarding, etc.

mike734
12-02-2007, 03:16 PM
Not that surprising since the giant redwoods are found predominantly in northern CA and the virgn color is red.
When National Airlines out of LAS were operating, their c/s was "redrock", named after the Redrock canyon just west of LV.
Just indicative of their corp. HQ and main base......


Ha Ha. Is that what you believe my naive friend? Let me ask you this: What happens to your "wood" when you are "with" a virgin? That's right, you get redwood. :eek:

Does anyone think the Virgin people who thought of the call sign didn't notice this?

Redwood. Now officially my favorite call sign. (OK, OK, I still like "Clipper")

B757200ER
12-02-2007, 06:39 PM
Redwood. Now officially my favorite call sign. (OK, OK, I still like "Clipper")

How about "Springbok"?

Or "CedarJet"?

Or my favorite---"Tsunami".

Fred Flintstone
12-04-2007, 02:29 PM
Ha Ha. Is that what you believe my naive friend? Let me ask you this: What happens to your "wood" when you are "with" a virgin? That's right, you get redwood. :eek:

Does anyone think the Virgin people who thought of the call sign didn't notice this?

Redwood. Now officially my favorite call sign. (OK, OK, I still like "Clipper")

Well, um, no. It's just about the trees. (wink wink, nod nod, say no more)

Before I was a Redwood I was a Blue Ridge. Whatdaya think about that? ;-)

captjns
12-06-2007, 01:38 AM
Hey remember... the difference between RED WOOD AND PINK WOOD is the grip:D



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