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View Full Version : Delta!


skidmark
08-17-2007, 08:07 AM
Does anyone know what the % of new hires are non-military at Delta?


Xray678
08-17-2007, 08:09 AM
Does anyone know what the % of new hires are non-military at Delta?

I heard the recent classes have been about 70% civilian/30% military.

skidmark
08-17-2007, 08:11 AM
thanks x-ray i just find that hard to believe


pilotss
08-17-2007, 08:43 AM
Have heard the same thing.

Tinpusher007
08-17-2007, 08:54 AM
I just hope the doors are still open in 3-5 years!

tantrum
08-17-2007, 09:30 AM
Here is what ALPA sent us...

New Hire Stats (as of July 16): 163 total

40 were prior military - 28 still actively drilling in guard or reserves
5 came from Airtran
6 came from American Eagle
51 came from ASA
7 came from Chautauqua
7 came from Comair
8 came from Express Jet
6 came from Jet Blue
10 came from Skywest
10 came directly from the Navy
15 came directly from the Air Force
4 came directly from the Marines
the others came from various carriers

JoeyMeatballs
08-17-2007, 09:43 AM
Looks like ASA is to Delta, what XJT is to CAL...............

Bucking Bar
08-17-2007, 09:54 AM
The trend is beginning to tip a little more to the military pilots. There were a few that could not get released from their obligations and now are going to be available.

f10a
08-17-2007, 10:13 AM
Looks like most pilots are from the regionals. :confused:

John Pennekamp
08-17-2007, 12:10 PM
Here is what ALPA sent us...

New Hire Stats (as of July 16): 163 total
40 were prior military - 28 still actively drilling in guard or reserves
5 came from Airtran
6 came from American Eagle
51 came from ASA
7 came from Chautauqua
7 came from Comair
8 came from Express Jet
6 came from Jet Blue
10 came from Skywest
10 came directly from the Navy
15 came directly from the Air Force
4 came directly from the Marines
the others came from various carriers

Do the 40 "prior military" include the ones who came directly from AF, NVY, and MC or are they regional pilots who were previously military. If it's the latter, it looks like 69 of the 163 had a military background for 42% of the new hires.

I think this is more typical of what we expect from Delta and certainly goes along with most of the posters on the Delta threads of this forum being mil guys.

acl65pilot
08-17-2007, 12:11 PM
That is because there are not a lot of military guys and gals getting out. Wait about 18 months and you will see DAL shift where they are hiring from to more traditional (Military) background. They like the regional guys because they can get through training without much trouble, but the people hiring are military and given the choice they will choose that.

citationdrvrmob
08-17-2007, 12:27 PM
Any chance for a corporate guy with an internal rec, or should I just go ahead and fire a resume to ASA?

CE750
08-18-2007, 06:26 AM
Any chance for a corporate guy with an internal rec, or should I just go ahead and fire a resume to ASA?

I have mixed FAR135 (corporate) and ASA/Gemini background and got the call. From what I can tell, if your resume is competitive, what gets you the "interview" is connections on the inside and how persistent they are. What gets you hired is going to be you from what I've been told, they're pretty fair.

acl65pilot
08-19-2007, 03:10 PM
Send one in. One of the guys in my class few for a very small coporate outfit and was hired. Time is not everything. There have been a fair share of people get calls with no internals or airline experience.

Spartan07
08-19-2007, 03:50 PM
So are these prior military stats only including those that were pilots in the military? Or are prior enlisted included in that as well?

Just curious if being prior enlisted has any bearing on getting hired at any level (Regional, Major, Cargo, Corporate etc.)

Luscombe Pete
08-19-2007, 05:28 PM
Spartan,

I would be surprised if any employer considered your prior military service to be anything less than a positive portion of your resume that could possibly make you a stand-out candidate. However, when describing one's aviation background with regards to the airlines, I think that the military category only applies to those that graduated from a military flight training program. In the event that you were enlisted with an aviation unit, you could probably track down a pilot who knew you that is now in a position to help in your civil aviation pursuits. Don't think for a minute that you're bothering them either. Some of the most rewarding experiences of my career have been when NCOs I served with have called me out of the blue for a recommendation or asked me to be a reference. Believe me, it's a compliment. Good luck.

LP

Luscombe Pete
08-19-2007, 05:47 PM
That is because there are not a lot of military guys and gals getting out. Wait about 18 months and you will see DAL shift where they are hiring from to more traditional (Military) background. They like the regional guys because they can get through training without much trouble, but the people hiring are military and given the choice they will choose that.

Please tell me that you meant to say that regional guys are available on a much shorter timeline (i.e. two weeks notice vice 4-12+ months to resign a commission). I doubt that Delta has a lack of confidence in the average military pilots' ability to complete initial training.:cool:

LP

CE750
08-19-2007, 06:04 PM
So are these prior military stats only including those that were pilots in the military? Or are prior enlisted included in that as well?

Just curious if being prior enlisted has any bearing on getting hired at any level (Regional, Major, Cargo, Corporate etc.)

As far as I know it doesn't but I believe it should (I'm biased I guess). Many of us had to get money for college by FIRST enlisting. The discipline and service to country are also things that should be viewed when looking at someone over all.

While officially I don't think there is any preference for it, I'm sure some interviewers will see it as a plus, while other might actually see it as a minus.

This is life.

Spartan07
08-19-2007, 09:41 PM
Hmm, I guess I could see how it could possibly be construed as a negative. All in all I think it depends on the total package that you bring to the table. If the military affected you positively then it is a plus. If you come off as an arrogant D-Bag I'm sure it could be a big fat minus.

Bucking Bar
08-20-2007, 06:06 AM
Delta is hiring enough people that there is plenty of opportunity for qualified candidates with a good attitude. Delta has not in any way indicated a preference fo either background. All I have heard is that they have had to wait for some of the military candidates they would like to hire, while the regional guys will resign and come over as fast as Delta will take them.

Military service v. a few thousand hours of command time flying Delta's passenegers? Either / both are a big plus.

The early numbers have mostly to do with the candidate's availability when called. Delta will work with the military candidates to accomodate their schedules.

acl65pilot
08-20-2007, 02:59 PM
It has nothing to do with ability. DAL prefers military any day over civilian pilots. There are just not enough getting out currently. It 18 months that will be different.
We civilians that they have hired are familiar with the airline gig, that is the only reason we generally transition easier.

scrapdog
08-20-2007, 05:16 PM
It has nothing to do with ability. DAL prefers military any day over civilian pilots. There are just not enough getting out currently. It 18 months that will be different.
We civilians that they have hired are familiar with the airline gig, that is the only reason we generally transition easier.

I will attest that this infamous "transition" that a military guy has to make flying airliners takes all of a week. Even for a fighter puke like myself once you get used to a few calls to ops and ramp/flow control, it's same-same/chicken-beef. There is complete clown on another aviation board that is a huge blowhard for DAL. His mantra is how well RJ guys transition to the major airline world and how difficult it is while military guys struggle with it. It's complete BS. It couldn't be further from the truth. Flying an airplane is flying an airplane. Going .76 Mach in a fatty with A/P on is almost as challenging as flipping between ESPN and Fox News while on the treadmill. I'll take it one step further...when I fly with a captain that has currently or has had a military background (heavies, helo's, fighters, etc...), it's amazing how well we click even before the engines crank. Bottom line: neither background is better but this impassible airline transition for mil guys is completely faux.

Xray678
08-20-2007, 07:12 PM
I will attest that this infamous "transition" that a military guy has to make flying airliners takes all of a week. Even for a fighter puke like myself once you get used to a few calls to ops and ramp/flow control, it's same-same/chicken-beef. There is complete clown on another aviation board that is a huge blowhard for DAL. His mantra is how well RJ guys transition to the major airline world and how difficult it is while military guys struggle with it. It's complete BS. It couldn't be further from the truth. Flying an airplane is flying an airplane.


I agree. When I was hired at my first airline, I was told how hard the transition was. Specifically, one civilian background captain commented on how the military didn't use jepps and how hard it must be to make the tranisition. Yeah, took me all of five minutes to figure out the jepps.

FliFast
08-20-2007, 11:06 PM
I will attest that this infamous "transition" that a military guy has to make flying airliners takes all of a week. Even for a fighter puke like myself once you get used to a few calls to ops and ramp/flow control, it's same-same/chicken-beef.



Bottom line: neither background is better but this impassible airline transition for mil guys is completely faux.

Trust me, after almost 20 years in the airline industry, your comments show your arrogance and ignorance.

I'll take a 15,000 TT airline guy over the ocean any day vis-a-vis, a 1500TT arrogant nerd.

I am very humbled by the fact that you have served our Country, but next time, think before you tell us airline guys how wonderful you are and how incompetent we are in our backyard.

FF

Split S
08-21-2007, 04:17 AM
Trust me, after almost 20 years in the airline industry, your comments show your arrogance and ignorance.

I'll take a 15,000 TT airline guy over the ocean any day vis-a-vis, a 1500TT arrogant nerd.

I am very humbled by the fact that you have served our Country, but next time, think before you tell us airline guys how wonderful you are and how incompetent we are in our backyard.

FF

I think their point is that it's not any harder for us than it is for anyone else. I don't think there was an intended air of arrogance, or any statements about anyone elses superiority or inferiority.

CVG767A
08-21-2007, 07:35 AM
At the risk of ****ing off a bunch of you guys, here's my two cents worth. These are two general traits I've seen. While I realize that most guys don't do these things, I see them enough that I will be on guard for them.

I've seen a number of problems with guys coming from a fighter background; they are often unfamiliar with the crew concept; too quick to start flipping switches, and not in the habit of annunciating their actions, both during normal and abnormal situations. One guy I flew with shut off the engine anti-ice without mentioning it ( he thought we were out of icing conditions- we weren't). The first indication I had was the EPRs rolling back.

With prior commuter types I sometimes see an attitude that's a little too casual. This is okay sometimes, but there is a time and a place to be like that. Sometimes, good enough ISN'T good enough.

I typically see the fewest issues with military transport types. ( Disclaimer: that's my background)

HoursHore
08-21-2007, 07:47 AM
I think Delta likes ASA guys because they have heavy exposure to the abortion called ATLANTA. Thier spirit is broken, and are well past the questioning stage.

I KEED I KEED:p;):D

Luscombe Pete
08-21-2007, 08:15 AM
Trust me, after almost 20 years in the airline industry, your comments show your arrogance and ignorance.

I'll take a 15,000 TT airline guy over the ocean any day vis-a-vis, a 1500TT arrogant nerd.
FF

Is that how you brief all of your Captains or do you adjust it based on their background? Come on FF, no one is undervaluing the experience of 15K hours in an airliner.

Scrapdog and Xray, right on. My experience at my first airline job was very similar.

LP

scrapdog
08-21-2007, 09:18 AM
Trust me, after almost 20 years in the airline industry, your comments show your arrogance and ignorance.

I'll take a 15,000 TT airline guy over the ocean any day vis-a-vis, a 1500TT arrogant nerd.

I am very humbled by the fact that you have served our Country, but next time, think before you tell us airline guys how wonderful you are and how incompetent we are in our backyard.

FF

I'm sorry you feel that I'm a 1500 TT "nerd." If you re-read my post, you'll see that I never once said how wonderful I am and how incompetent you are. On the contrary, I said neither background is better than the other. And isn't this my backyard now as well? I also fly for the airlines just as you do. I may not have 15,000 TT, but that's only because I haven't done it for as long as you.

If you look at the point of my prior post it's specifically aimed at this mythical dragon called the "airline transition." It's funny, but every other fighter guy I know that also flies for the airlines (at least 2 dozen) and has done this infamously difficult transition has succeeded....and I mean in a matter of days. It's almost comical - no, it is comical, how many times I've heard or read from civilian guys about how brutal it is for a military fighter guy to make the "transition." I's a complete joke. After getting used to Jeppesen's (which takes about 30 minutes) and having a good attitude and being a good student (which is bred in each individual - military or not) I can safely say your airline "transition" is complete. Yeah, I started reach for switches I wasn't supposed to initially in training - but after the instructor taught me...just like any monkey, I learned. Here's a breakdown of my airline "transition":

1. Getting used to using jepp's: about 30 minutes
2. Getting used to crew concept: about 3 rides in sim - approx 4 days into training
3. Getting used to radio calls nonstandard to military flying (ramp/flow control/metering, etc...): approx 2 flights
4. Getting used to reading USA Today/Newsweek > 10K MSL for 3 hours with A/P on: approx 2 flights :eek:
5. Getting used to making PA's that are concise and to the point: approx 3 flights
5. Getting used to landing a fatty @ 130 knots as opposed to a fighter @ 150-160 knots: approx 3 flights

Total: approx 5-7 days to make dreaded airline transition occur successfully

Again, FliFast - please re-read my 1st post.

FliFast
08-21-2007, 10:39 AM
I. Going .76 Mach in a fatty with A/P on is almost as challenging as flipping between ESPN and Fox News while on the treadmill. .

and....Getting used to landing a fatty @ 130 knots as opposed to a fighter @ 150-160 knots: approx 3 flights

Never once did you say wonderful you are ????

Maybe not in as many words, but it's my opinion that my job is a little more challenging than changing channels between ESPN and Fox. Landing a widebody jet at speeds of 155-165 kts, on postage-stamp sized runways, at airports where they don't speak English, with the many deferred items that airlines love to give us, in low visibility weather is like changing channels on a treadmill ???

One of the most difficult landings, in my opinion, is landing aboard a ship. Imagine, if out of the blue I posted something saying, oh I did it on flight simulator, it looked easy..anyone could do it...it's as challenging playing tiddlywinks with three blind men. Puhllease, save the useless flame bait. Congrats on the airline job, but have a little more respect for us "Monkeys".

Again, I'm humbled by your service to our country, and I respect your opinion that you think being an airline pilot is as easy as changing channels to ESPN, but after being a former check airman, pilot supervisor, widebody Capt and line pilot, I respectfully disagree that the transition for almost all military folks is a 3 flight deal (it's an ongoing learning process hopefully over the course of a long and prosperous career)...unless of course your Tom Cruise-then you know it all.

Finally, where in the heck on this message board, except me defending us ESPN-loving airline pilots, do you see anyone telling you that about the "infamous airline transition" ? Did I miss it ??? If you have a beef with a dirtbag on another message board, keep your trash on that other trashy message board, rather than throwing flamebait here on a decent thread about getting hired at Delta.

I'll agree to disagree with you, but telling us civie guys how simple our training is and how easy our job almost sounds like some of the brilliant passengers I used to fly.

FF

Lifeisgood
08-21-2007, 11:33 AM
It has nothing to do with ability. DAL prefers military any day over civilian pilots. There are just not enough getting out currently. In 18 months that will be different....

Why?
Thanks

Roll Inverted and Pull
08-21-2007, 11:42 AM
Landing at 165 knots? Postage sized runways? What and where do you fly? And the dreaded foreign language runways? Wow!

acl65pilot
08-21-2007, 11:53 AM
In 18 months that is when a lot of the guys that are currently in are getting out. DAL knows this. I talked to Arnie about the hiring trends and this is one thing that was mentioned a few times.

Radial Song
08-21-2007, 12:11 PM
Maybe not in as many words, but it's my opinion that my job is a little more challenging than changing channels between ESPN and Fox. Landing a widebody jet at speeds of 155-165 kts, on postage-stamp sized runways, at airports where they don't speak English, with the many deferred items that airlines love to give us, in low visibility weather is like changing channels on a treadmill ???

One of the most difficult landings, in my opinion, is landing aboard a ship. Imagine, if out of the blue I posted something saying, oh I did it on flight simulator, it looked easy..anyone could do it...it's as challenging playing tiddlywinks with three blind men. Puhllease, save the useless flame bait. Congrats on the airline job, but have a little more respect for us "Monkeys".

Again, I'm humbled by your service to our country, and I respect your opinion that you think being an airline pilot is as easy as changing channels to ESPN, but after being a former check airman, pilot supervisor, widebody Capt and line pilot, I respectfully disagree that the transition for almost all military folks is a 3 flight deal (it's an ongoing learning process hopefully over the course of a long and prosperous career)...unless of course your Tom Cruise-then you know it all.

Finally, where in the heck on this message board, except me defending us ESPN-loving airline pilots, do you see anyone telling you that about the "infamous airline transition" ? Did I miss it ??? If you have a beef with a dirtbag on another message board, keep your trash on that other trashy message board, rather than throwing flamebait here on a decent thread about getting hired at Delta.

I'll agree to disagree with you, but telling us civie guys how simple our training is and how easy our job almost sounds like some of the brilliant passengers I used to fly.

FF

I think that you're misinterpreting and taking this too far. The poster did not compare a civilian flying career to changing channels. He only made an analogy to the transition between military and civilian flying. He was just saying switching between military and civilian flying is not rocket science as is switching or the transition between ESPN and Fox. I don't even think that he implied that civilian training was simple. I"m sure that he would agree that a civilian pilot transitioning to military is just as simple. He was talking about the simplicity of the transition, that's all. My .02

BTW; I have a civilian flying background.

Albief15
08-21-2007, 12:32 PM
I've helped several guys get ready for DAL interviews successfully from both mil and civ backgrounds.

Delta, IMHO, wants someone who is A) a competent aviator and B) can represent the company well.

The clients I've had that were successful all had a common thread--good past performance and a lot of enthusiasm about being at DELTA.

I had one client from ATA not make it. I don't know why. He wanted it bad, and I thought he was sharp. Another guy I recently helped was turned down by DAL before he asked for my help with another airline. My take is they could sense it wasn't his first choice (and it wasn't) despite his best acting.

So far--the 20 or so we've worked with have had great success. I agree with some posters here, however, that despite the historical preference for military pilots regional pilots are doing VERY well at getting hired at DAL. Guys like me and Scrappy may be "cool" for being fighter pilots part time, but we are a pain in the butt to airline management with our ANG obligations. So--the young, sharp regional guy dying to work there that they know will work hard is a good fit, and they seem to be scooping them up in good numbers.

Also helped a couple regional guys get ready for UAL this week--we'll see how that goes...

FliFast
08-21-2007, 01:13 PM
training was simple. I"m sure that he would agree that a civilian pilot transitioning to military is just as simple.



Any military guys agree with that ???

FF

FliFast
08-21-2007, 01:25 PM
Landing at 165 knots? Postage sized runways? What and where do you fly? And the dreaded foreign language runways? Wow!

R.I.P.

MD11/747 Classic both have high approach speeds especially when landing at max gross landing weight, asymetric flap configurations, using eng. out speed additives or Flaps 25 on the whale.

On the MD11, at max gross landing weight Flaps 35 without wind additives is 164 / Flaps 50 is 158.
At max gross takeoff, a quick return landing speed is 183 Flaps 35 and 178 for Flaps 50.

The 747 Classic landing speeds are comparable using Flaps 25 or 30.

Santa Ana, CA (757) - Beirut, Lebanon - Long Beach Ca - State College, PA--31R at JFK-
4R Honolulu, HI,- Bogota, Columbia, - Quito, Equador, - Mumbai and Calcutta, India some of my favorites.

In some countries it's quite common for controllers to speak their native tongue to all other traffic except your flight, Korea (they speak English, I just can't understand it !!!), China, India, Russia, and so on. This makes situational awareness of surrounding traffic, pireps and such more difficult.

R.I.P., as a retired Capt, congrats on your career. I'm guessing your professional question was out of curiousity not sarcasm or........... :rolleyes:

FF

md11phlyer
08-21-2007, 01:30 PM
Another interesting thing to ponder on the civilian/military discussion:

23 guys in my new hire class, ages 27-43.

4 pure civilians.

Two youngest guys were halfway up the list (or more) looking at Total Time.
Both civilians.

We also had roughly 14 ex-legacy guys who had done both. Several who were not furloughed, just quit for greener pastures.

My point is that the total competitive package will determine the applicant getting hired. Civy vs. Mil really means little compared with flight times, experience, interview performance and attitude. I hope that the average hiring department feels the same way.

scrapdog
08-21-2007, 02:10 PM
I think that you're misinterpreting and taking this too far. The poster did not compare a civilian flying career to changing channels. He only made an analogy to the transition between military and civilian flying. He was just saying switching between military and civilian flying is not rocket science as is switching or the transition between ESPN and Fox. I don't even think that he implied that civilian training was simple. I"m sure that he would agree that a civilian pilot transitioning to military is just as simple. He was talking about the simplicity of the transition, that's all. My .02

BTW; I have a civilian flying background.

Ahh Radial - you get it!!!!!! That's exactly what I was getting at. Civilian training is certainly not easy. Heck, if it wasn't for my sim partner who helped me through the initial hoops (again...he was an RJ type guy), I would have had a much harder time at the onset - with the CRM gig mainly. But this "transition" that civie guys say is so hard for fighter guys is complete balogney. And that's been my point in the last two posts.

It's amazing how civilian guys skew this to think I'm pounding my chest. I'm not. Read my words - not between the lines. I'm not scoffing your training - I'm only scoffing this dreaded transition.

FliFast
08-21-2007, 02:30 PM
I will attest that this infamous "transition" that a military guy has to make flying airliners takes all of a week. AND THEN Civilian training is certainly not easy. .

Well Scraps, I owe you an apology then. I read your post to say that the transition was as easy as changing channel on a treadmill. I guess I misread your post...a simple misunderstanding.

But this "transition" that civie guys say is so hard for fighter guys is complete balogney. And that's been my point in the last two posts. .

Scrapdog, your point is well taken. But I still have't found the dreaded posting or thread saying that fighter pilots have a hard time transitioning to airliners. My father was a fighter pilot (VMFA) that retired as an airline pilot, I know for a fact that it can be done. But please, point me to the thread or posting that says that fighter pilots would have a hard time transitioning to the airlines, and will rebuff the bologna right along side of you...no questions asked.

1. Getting used to using jepp's: about 30 minutes
2. Getting used to crew concept: about 3 rides in sim - approx 4 days into training
3. Getting used to radio calls nonstandard to military flying (ramp/flow control/metering, etc...): approx 2 flights
4. Getting used to reading USA Today/Newsweek > 10K MSL for 3 hours with A/P on: approx 2 flights
5. Getting used to making PA's that are concise and to the point: approx 3 flights
5. Getting used to landing a fatty @ 130 knots as opposed to a fighter @ 150-160 knots: approx 3 flights

Total: approx 5-7 days to make dreaded airline transition occur successfully

AND THEN

It's amazing how civilian guys skew this to think I'm pounding my chest..

And maybe you weren't pounding your chest by asserting that it took you all of three flights to get the whole airline thing down-pat. I guess for most of the folks I've flown with, taught, etc...it has taken them quite a bit longer (100 hrs of consolidation, high mins captains, etc). Giving you the benfit of the doubt, you're probably a very talented aviator.

. I'm not scoffing your training - I'm only scoffing this dreaded transition.

I guess I got a little stuck with symantics. When you say training and transition, I was not able to see the difference between the two. I won't be so quick to judge and name call if you can explain to me what the difference is between leaving the military and "transitioning" to your first line trip -and-attending training to prepare you for your first line trip. I saw it as your transition was your training, or did you take coursework outside of your airline's training program to prepare you for it ???

My point is I misunderstood what you said because I read it literally and posted your quotes to backup my points. I see from your lasting posting that it was all just a simple misunderstanding on my part. Apologies for that. Best of Luck.

FF

scrapdog
08-21-2007, 02:54 PM
Well Scraps, I owe you an apology then. I read your post to say that the transition was as easy as changing channel on a treadmill. I guess I misread your post...a simple misunderstanding.



Scrapdog, your point is well taken. But I still have't found the dreaded posting or thread saying that fighter pilots have a hard time transitioning to airliners. My father was a fighter pilot that retired as an airline pilot, I know for a fact that it can be done. But please, point me to the thread or posting that says that fighter pilots would have a hard time transitioning to the airlines, and will rebuff the bologna right along side of you...no questions asked.



I guess I got a little stuck with symantics. When you say training and transition, I was not able to see the difference between the two. I won't be so quick to judge and name call if you can explain to me what the difference is between leaving the military and then flying your first line trip -and-attending training to prepare you for your first line trip. I saw it as your transition was your training, or did you take coursework outside of your airline's training program to prepare you for it ???

And maybe you weren't pounding your chest by asserting that it took you all of three flights to get the whole airline thing down-pat. I guess for most of the folks I've flown with, taught, etc...it has taken them quite a bit longer (100 hrs of consolidation, high mins captains, etc). Giving you the benfit of the doubt, you're probably a quick study.

My point is I misunderstood what you said because I read it literally and posted your quotes to backup my points. I see from your lasting posting that it was all just a simple misunderstanding on my part. Apologies for that. Best of Luck.

FF

Fli - in all honesty, I can't point you to a specific post. I will say there is a lot more garbage on this subject on FI.com than there is on here (thank god). And I've heard this airline transition BS as well from civilian naysayers in the crew room where I just have to roll my eyes. I've also heard on the contrary from mil guys that they think civilian guys are not as talented as military guys and airlines should hire more mil guys. Again, BS. There is talent on both sides of the fence. I've honestly thought there were a few talented civ guys in my new hire class that would have made a civ to military transition with no problem as well...my sim partner being one. He was 26, an RJ FO (no jet PIC time), and looked like he could barely qualify for 18. I was ****ed he was my sim partner. After a few sessions with him, it was awesome. He was an extremely quick learner and hard worker and he and I clicked perfectly. I don't think there was one sim session that wasn't well above average in performance. He would have probably graduated top in his military UPT class had he gone the mil route. And of course there were the buffoons too... :D

My first trip - well, I was nervous as hell...just like I was my first time in the T-37. Of course we're all nervous when we have something new in front of us and we want to do our best. We're type A's...we're pilots. It's amazing how simillar we are really as opposed to our differences. That's the beauty of it all.

I didn't take any coursework to prep me for being an airline pilot (aside from the prep for my interview sim/panel). I just studied hard. That was beat into my head from day one in T-37's and especially day one in F-15's. I used the same tenacity/professionalism attitude that I did when I pinned on my wings in the USAF. I stayed after my sim session was over and watched other guys. I learned besides from my notes what students did well and what they didn't. I sat down for those extra two hours after everyone went back to their room and went over my flows. Everytime a sim IP said "oh, you're a fighter guy...you'll have a tougher time with this airline transition" I wanted to shove it down their throats. Bottom line - an airplane is an airplane is an airplane.

And last but not least - apology accepted. ;)

Flare Armed
08-21-2007, 05:38 PM
"You guys figure it out yet?"

"Who's the best pilot?"

"You think you're gonna find your name on that wall"

"Yes I do"

"That's pretty arrogant considering the company you're in"

"Yes it is"

"Thats good...I like that in a pilot"

...carry on...

Rhino Driver
08-22-2007, 08:37 AM
I'm sure that he would agree that a civilian pilot transitioning to military is just as simple. He was talking about the simplicity of the transition, that's all. My .02

BTW; I have a civilian flying background.[/quote]

Any military guys agree with that ???

FF

No. And a postage stamp isn't 12,000 feet of runway ahead boys. Let's leave the postage stamp reference to the those landing on a 400' slab of steel in the middle of the Pacific. On final, approaching at 140kts on a DARK overcast night with 15-20' pitching seas...No, I don't think the transition to Mil is as easy.

Gladioslave
08-22-2007, 03:51 PM
Having over 300 landings on postage stamps I second Rhino Driver. And when you go somewhere, where they not only don't speak your language but they also shoot at you it takes ALOT more training than that... FF, you ever been shot at? Well all of us young military guys have... Nuff said!

CE750
08-22-2007, 03:53 PM
R.I.P.

MD11/747 Classic both have high approach speeds especially when landing at max gross landing weight, asymetric flap configurations, using eng. out speed additives or Flaps 25 on the whale.

On the MD11, at max gross landing weight Flaps 35 without wind additives is 164 / Flaps 50 is 158.
At max gross takeoff, a quick return landing speed is 183 Flaps 35 and 178 for Flaps 50.

The 747 Classic landing speeds are comparable using Flaps 25 or 30.

Santa Ana, CA (757) - Beirut, Lebanon - Long Beach Ca - State College, PA--31R at JFK-
4R Honolulu, HI,- Bogota, Columbia, - Quito, Equador, - Mumbai and Calcutta, India some of my favorites.

In some countries it's quite common for controllers to speak their native tongue to all other traffic except your flight, Korea (they speak English, I just can't understand it !!!), China, India, Russia, and so on. This makes situational awareness of surrounding traffic, pireps and such more difficult.

R.I.P., as a retired Capt, congrats on your career. I'm guessing your professional question was out of curiousity not sarcasm or........... :rolleyes:

FF

Ah.. indeed that MD-11 is a HOT plane and planting it right in the TDZ is critical in many cases. I think my strongest recommendation I have on file with DAL is one from a line captain I flew with last at Gemini who stressed that I was unique in "new guys" in my ability to make the TDZ ont he 11.. I hope that my interview CA is a former 11 driver so he can relate! :D

BTW.. on the topic of military.. I think it's safe to say mil pilots get better training, and are selected a bit more so than Civ pilots, but the fact is, as with the airlines, there are times when the Military is looking for pilots badly (as was the case over the past 10-12 years), and times when they weren't (1989 when I tried out and busted over a minor medical condition that was gone by the time I was 16).

Supply=Demand rules the world!

CE750
08-22-2007, 03:56 PM
Having over 300 landings on postage stamps I second Rhino Driver. And when you go somewhere, where they not only don't speak your language but they also shoot at you it takes ALOT more training than that... FF, you ever been shot at? Well all of us young military guys have... Nuff said!

To which I will add that the enlisted guy in the trench at 19 who was shot at also deserves a bit of a plus on his resume. Service to country should count for something, that's for sure.

Some guys just didn't have the money to go straight to college and get that ROTC commission. The best of the best got the Academy route, and my hat's off to those guys!

Many roads lead to Rome!

md11phlyer
08-22-2007, 08:36 PM
No. And a postage stamp isn't 12,000 feet of runway ahead boys. Let's leave the postage stamp reference to the those landing on a 400' slab of steel in the middle of the Pacific. On final, approaching at 140kts on a DARK overcast night with 15-20' pitching seas...No, I don't think the transition to Mil is as easy.

Having over 300 landings on postage stamps I second Rhino Driver. And when you go somewhere, where they not only don't speak your language but they also shoot at you it takes ALOT more training than that... FF, you ever been shot at? Well all of us young military guys have... Nuff said!

Wow.........

DALMD88FO
08-23-2007, 03:47 AM
Having over 300 landings on postage stamps I second Rhino Driver. And when you go somewhere, where they not only don't speak your language but they also shoot at you it takes ALOT more training than that... FF, you ever been shot at? Well all of us young military guys have... Nuff said!


And being shot at has what to do with moving metal from point A to point B safely? So Gladioslave, how are you going to handle flying with a civilian only Captain if you get hired to Delta?

CE750
08-23-2007, 05:09 AM
Guys, this military vs civil thing is one of the oldest debates, and frankly silly. I've flown with some of the best and worse pilots from both backgrounds. I can name guys (Alvin "Tex" Johnston, and Robert N. Buck for example) from civilian backgrounds that are legends, and I can name guys from military backgrounds that are the same (Chuck Yager, and Bob Hoover, for example).

Neither groups is better than the other, cool?

LvgTHEDream
08-23-2007, 05:29 AM
And being shot at has what to do with moving metal from point A to point B safely? So Gladioslave, how are you going to handle flying with a civilian only Captain if you get hired to Delta?

I think this "mil" training will serve Gladioslave well. Reasoning.......The Captain he is on a trip with will probably be trying to take shots at him by the end of the trip if he keeps running his mouth about being a "big shot"!:D

SabreDriver
08-23-2007, 05:34 AM
BTW; I have a civilian flying background.

[QUOTE=FliFast;218710]Any military guys agree with that ???

FF

Nope, the road to military wings is littered with guys and gals with civillian ratings, and I dare say that the road from military to civillian flying is far cleaner, IMHO. The attrition rate in military training is actually higher for folks with civillian ratings:eek:, based on my experience as a military instructor for 10+ years. I'm not saying that one is better than the other (not going there), but I will say that military training is much more standardized, and the end product is far more predictable than any cross section of civillian schools that produce pilots in the same #s.

I do believe it's good that companies hire a cross section of civillian and military pilots, that sort of diversity is very healthy in a large pilot organization. Pilot groups need to be diverse, we are all better off for it, no matter what our individual background is.

And before anybody asks, I was a civillian rated pilot then went to military (Navy) training, and now I fly for a 121 carrier.:D

Rhino Driver
08-23-2007, 06:01 AM
To which I will add that the enlisted guy in the trench at 19 who was shot at also deserves a bit of a plus on his resume. Service to country should count for something, that's for sure.

Some guys just didn't have the money to go straight to college and get that ROTC commission. The best of the best got the Academy route, and my hat's off to those guys!

Many roads lead to Rome!
AMEN Brother! Thank you for your service. Life can't be easy in the trenches. Good Luck and Godspeed!

FliFast
08-23-2007, 03:22 PM
And being shot at has what to do with moving metal from point A to point B safely? So Gladioslave, how are you going to handle flying with a civilian only Captain if you get hired to Delta?

He won't, he'll be standing on the jetway with his nav kit in one hand and raincoat in the other hand watching his replacement take his flight.

I have never been shot at in the scenario you mention, Gladio. But yes, I've had an AK47 pointed in my face in Beirut, non specific threats made to my flights out of Saudia and Egypt and heavens knows it would not take a genuis to put an exposive aboard a widebody jet and not know it until it is too late-ala Lockerbie. You may argue with me, but to terrorist, I think a commercial airliner is just as attractive a target as a military aircraft.

To make this as clear as possible, the hazards that face those in the military and the bravery they show in facing it far outweigh beyond words the hazards that I have encountered, period. Without a doubt.

In many many many of my postings, I have sung praise and shown respect to those in uniform. If you want to only read what you want to read and IGNORE (ant) the rest, than that's a personal problem that has nothing to do with piloting whatsoever, just a character problem.

In addition, in a previous posting (same thread #30), I clearly acknowledged that landing an aircraft aboard a boat is probably the most difficult landing to make...if you only want to have selective hearing, so be it. It again, is a character issue, not a piloting skill at question here.

Clearly I have shown you and Rhino respect in your arena-traps on a carrier. If your ego will allow it, show some respect to the airline arena-landing an aircraft that weights 30 times heavier on runways 6000-8000' feet without a tail hook and without a thrust-to-weight ratio near 1.

I've never landed on a carrier and clearly acknowledge it's high degree of difficulty. I presume you've never landed a widebody jet, but are very sure you know it's ease.

I'm sure you would do just fine in your training at Delta or wherever. But for your chrissakes, spare us the ego. :(

-------------------------

Sabredriver, thanks for taking time out to give us your opinion. I appreciate it.
Maybe we can get back to the thread's theme-hiring at Delta ???

FF

Beernuts
08-23-2007, 03:32 PM
As for the original question on this thread, just from my experience last week, of 6 that interviewed, all of the 3 that were hired were military, 2 Air Force heavy guys and one Marine aviator turned Guard 130s.

Codguy
08-23-2007, 06:06 PM
Maybe we can get back to the thread's theme-hiring at Delta ???FF

Along those lines....

Having also recently underwent the interview/hiring/new-hire process at Delta figured I'd throw my two cents in the pot for what it is worth.

I know of numerous military candidates (who on the outside appeared to have competetive credentials) that did not pass the interview process. So it is by no means a gimme.

I do feel (IMHO) that a military background perhaps does help one make it into the interview pile with two "advantages" over civilian-only candidates: Lower times overall and fewer (or no) internal recs.

The lower times aspect is not surprising and seems to be common across most carriers due not to the "quality" of the time, but the fact that military pilots just don't accumulate the time as rapidly as someone from a 135 or 121 background. A 12+ year stint in the Navy only netted me a little shy of 3500 hours TT since actually flying was only a small part of the job description.

As for internal recs, of the four military-only pilots on my interview date and several others in my new hire class, only one of us had any internal recs on file in airlineapps when we initially received the interview invitation. The civilian only interviewees, as well as many of of my civilian new hire classmates tended to have one or more internals. I do have the feeling (again IMHO) that Delta does consider a successful 10-20 career in the military a "recommendation".

Once you actually get yourself all prettied up and are sitting at the interview table, however, I'm not convinced that a military guy/gal has any advantages over a civilian guy at that point. I would think (and would hope) that everyone in that lobby walks in on equal footing, and that has been my experience, allbeit an experience limited to the past 3-4 months around the Delta campus.

As for the demographics of my new hire class, we were 20% military-only with a couple additional of ex-military folks who had come from other carriers. Seems to be in line with what others in this thread have been posting.

Will that change? Don't know, but the fact remains that the significant majority of guys/gals sitting in Delta new hire classes at this point and time are from a civilian background. So if you want to be at Delta...get that app in no matter what side of the fence you came from.

As for the military/civilian transition sidetrack that was batted about above...I think again that the real difference lies in the attitude of the individual, same as it does at the interview table. If you're a stubborn a$$hat who can't take direction or is unwilling to "unlearn" some of what you think you know...then you'll have problems going in either direction. I certainly saw it from the military flight training side of the fence, but have no doubt that it hapens on the civilian/airline side too.

From personal experience, is coming from a pure military background to the civilian side particularly difficult...not really...so far at least. But again, if you're the type of person who realizes you've got a transition to make and is willing to shut up, listen, learn then you will probably stand a good chance of doing just fine going in either direction. If you walk into either environment thinking you're God's gift to aviation because you <insert great feat of civilian/military aviation here> then you will either have issues, or at a minimum, provide fodder for those folks sitting around the crew room (or ready room) complaining about how military (civilian) pilots can't adapt.

I'll admit right up front that I'm darn glad that my sim partner came from a regional/civilian background. I've learned alot so far just from talking with him, not only in the training environment, but over dinner and a few beers back at the hotel as well.

Sorry for rambling on, I'll relinquish the soapbox now :o

dbtownley
08-23-2007, 06:47 PM
Just finished the DAL interview and the gouge out there was "laser" guided. The test has not changed. Be yourself in the interview and study for the job knowledge. 4 of 7 were hired. Good luck.

DViking
08-23-2007, 07:24 PM
Chunks

I assume it went well? I guess you have a decision to make now. How much longer are you in corpus? Where are you going when you get out?? Back to AR??? I would have sent you a PM, but this is my first post.

JC
Big Daddy

SabreDriver
08-23-2007, 07:33 PM
-------------------------

Sabredriver, thanks for taking time out to give us your opinion. I appreciate it.
Maybe we can get back to the thread's theme-hiring at Delta ???

FF


No worries, you're welcome, next time we are in ANC at the same time, cold drinks are on me.

As for DAL, several folks have left my company for DAL. Some had civillian and others military backgrounds, DAL has seemed to be happy with them either way and I really think it was for the reasons Albie stated above. I too believe it comes down to solid prior performance (no matter where that is), proper preperation, and an honest desire to be at DAL. :D

Fly safe

Adolphus Coors
08-25-2007, 07:50 AM
He won't, he'll be standing on the jetway with his nav kit in one hand and raincoat in the other hand watching his replacement take his flight.

I have never been shot at in the scenario you mention, Gladio. But yes, I've had an AK47 pointed in my face in Beirut, non specific threats made to my flights out of Saudia and Egypt and heavens knows it would not take a genuis to put an exposive aboard a widebody jet and not know it until it is too late-ala Lockerbie. You may argue with me, but to terrorist, I think a commercial airliner is just as attractive a target as a military aircraft.

To make this as clear as possible, the hazards that face those in the military and the bravery they show in facing it far outweigh beyond words the hazards that I have encountered, period. Without a doubt.

In many many many of my postings, I have sung praise and shown respect to those in uniform. If you want to only read what you want to read and IGNORE (ant) the rest, than that's a personal problem that has nothing to do with piloting whatsoever, just a character problem.

In addition, in a previous posting (same thread #30), I clearly acknowledged that landing an aircraft aboard a boat is probably the most difficult landing to make...if you only want to have selective hearing, so be it. It again, is a character issue, not a piloting skill at question here.

Clearly I have shown you and Rhino respect in your arena-traps on a carrier. If your ego will allow it, show some respect to the airline arena-landing an aircraft that weights 30 times heavier on runways 6000-8000' feet without a tail hook and without a thrust-to-weight ratio near 1.

I've never landed on a carrier and clearly acknowledge it's high degree of difficulty. I presume you've never landed a widebody jet, but are very sure you know it's ease.

I'm sure you would do just fine in your training at Delta or wherever. But for your chrissakes, spare us the ego. :(

-------------------------

Sabredriver, thanks for taking time out to give us your opinion. I appreciate it.
Maybe we can get back to the thread's theme-hiring at Delta ???

FF


Funny, I know both of those dudes and neither are egocentric or cocky.

They are proud of their aviation heritage as they should be. Honestly as a civi I think the hardest I have had to concentrate in my career was for the cog test. LOL

TBoneF15
08-25-2007, 02:50 PM
Just finished the DAL interview and the gouge out there was "laser" guided. The test has not changed. Be yourself in the interview and study for the job knowledge. 4 of 7 were hired. Good luck.

I guess it all depends on what kind of gouge you are used to. I've read over and over again that the WFFF gouge is great/spot on/laser guided, and I put a lot of faith in those comments while doing my prep. I thought it was good on the interview question front, but it's NOT perfect on the technical/job knowledge test portion and I walked out of the test a little less than confident (I knew the gouge cold plus did extra studying from AIM/internet/ATP written stuff, etc). If you're used to gouge that is essentially a master question file of the entire test bank with the answers circled (like I am and many fighter dudes are), then you will be sorely disappointed. If you are used to gouge that has some of the questions, merely points you in the general direction on others, and makes absolutely no mention of many, than you will probably find the gouge on the street great because it does at least get you some of the way home. So take that all for what it's worth if you're doing your prep...dbtownley and I were there on the same day and obviously had a different perspective on the same test/gouge. But we both got the job, so I suppose it worked.

dbtownley
08-25-2007, 03:50 PM
I think the computer generates the questions from a larger bank but the ones on my gouge were exactly what i saw test day. The one about the FAF is on the 090/20 and you are on the 288 how far are you from the FAF was word for word. The COG was the second time for me (I saw it previously when I went to the Comair interview).

C-17 Driver
08-25-2007, 05:12 PM
I think the computer generates the questions from a larger bank but the ones on my gouge were exactly what i saw test day. The one about the FAF is on the 090/20 and you are on the 288 how far are you from the FAF was word for word. The COG was the second time for me (I saw it previously when I went to the Comair interview).


6 NM!!

11 days out to my interview...I hope the good times continue to last!

Haywood JB
08-25-2007, 05:28 PM
DT,

Did you get the nod? You said four of seven....gotta like the odds.

HJB

RockyBoy
08-25-2007, 06:23 PM
I guess it all depends on what kind of gouge you are used to. I've read over and over again that the WFFF gouge is great/spot on/laser guided, and I put a lot of faith in those comments while doing my prep. I thought it was good on the interview question front, but it's NOT perfect on the technical/job knowledge test portion and I walked out of the test a little less than confident (I knew the gouge cold plus did extra studying from AIM/internet/ATP written stuff, etc). If you're used to gouge that is essentially a master question file of the entire test bank with the answers circled (like I am and many fighter dudes are), then you will be sorely disappointed. If you are used to gouge that has some of the questions, merely points you in the general direction on others, and makes absolutely no mention of many, than you will probably find the gouge on the street great because it does at least get you some of the way home. So take that all for what it's worth if you're doing your prep...dbtownley and I were there on the same day and obviously had a different perspective on the same test/gouge. But we both got the job, so I suppose it worked.

That is why it is called a gouge not a gleim. If you meet the minimums Delta is looking for you should have a foundation of knowledge that the gouge can help you focus on. I studied the subject matter that the gouge questions were covering and I thought the test was very easy. I don't think there were any questions that I got that did not at least have the subject talked about on the gouge. If you do that, the test is a piece of cake. Not a laser guided gouge, but plently good to get you through.

SKE-17
08-25-2007, 06:44 PM
Stats from Thursday's class (8/23)....8 scheduled, 7 showed, 5 hired. All had military backgrounds but not all military flyers. I never thought I'd describe an interview as fun and enjoyable, but the Delta folks really make you feel rat home....awesome experience!

SKE-17
08-25-2007, 06:45 PM
right at home....that is.

dbtownley
08-27-2007, 04:39 AM
DT,

Did you get the nod? You said four of seven....gotta like the odds.

HJB

I did. Should start the first of October.

NGINEWHOISWHAT
08-27-2007, 05:18 AM
Civy or Mil. doesn't matter, as long as you can do the job. I really don't care what the back ground is as long as you can do the job. The military guys, myself included (enlisted), have a much deserved sense of entitlement. My dad did twenty + years in the Navy. I did four and I'm still trying to figure out how he did the time.

Civilian guys, IMO, have no idea what military pilots endure. I also feel that a lot of Military pilots have no appreciation for the struggles of a starving flight instructor. There are difficulties on both sides. I personally think Delta HR has done a great job. Good luck to all.

Tom

georgetg
08-27-2007, 08:52 AM
My hat's off to all military guys.

From 0 to 300h in single seat fighter with bad guys shotting at you takes intense preparation and dedication, but it can be done.

The biggest advantage all MIL guys have in my book is the ability to cram and quickly digest huge amounts of new information and put it to use.
The biggest disadvantage MIL guys have is if they come from single pilot ops.
In an airline environment, the difference between good CRM and marginal CRM is a lot of experience and takes a LOT of time. These skills are not easy to come by and can't be learned in a few days.

I'd say the Transport/Tanker types probably have the easiest time of all MIL guys because of multicrew experience in aircraft with similar flight profiles.

Nice to see the thread not creep into a total flame war as would have happened at the other place...

Delta is a class act and seems to have their ducks in a row.
I hope the new CEO continues the path Grinstein layed out coming out of BK.

Hope to be in class one day.

Cheers
George

Gretzky
08-27-2007, 09:35 AM
My interview class was 5/6 mil. (2 USMC, 3 USAF, 1 SkyWest). SkyWest guy said 1 out of 4 of the guys he new interviewed with DAL got hired. He didn't make it and that made the SkyWest tally 1/5 hired. Not scientific polling, just what he knew...

All 5 of the SkyWest guys had interviewed within the last couple months. Don't know if this sets a trend or just FYI.

The next day of interviews was 2 Civ 4 Mil. 3/6 were hired (all mil).

Hope this helps.

coryk
08-27-2007, 10:12 AM
How are the guys/gals with prior enlisted military time, and civilian flying backgrounds look upon when they interview? Any different do you think? Would it help any, even if it's enlisted, non-flying experience?

I'm just curious.

CE750
08-27-2007, 10:16 AM
I think the computer generates the questions from a larger bank but the ones on my gouge were exactly what i saw test day. The one about the FAF is on the 090/20 and you are on the 288 how far are you from the FAF was word for word. The COG was the second time for me (I saw it previously when I went to the Comair interview).

I think there is a bit of good and a bit of bad, so one has to be able to do the problems on their own. For example, I'm still not sure that the gouge answer for the abort/reject is correct.. I'm willing to be it's the "Brakes, Spoilers, TR's" and not the other way around! Also, there are a few others that are either wrong, or 1/2 right.. The radar one with Hail and Rain... pretty sure it's rain, but the gouge says hail.. another asks what power setting do you use on a MA (Missed Approach) and that is clearly "Go around power, but the guy marked "Max Power" or something else.. etc.. Think for yourself is what I'm thinking works best! :D


as for civil vs mil.. would seem that DAL is certainly favoring Mil, or one must assume the Mil guys have all been far stronger than the civil ones, which wouldn't surprise me a bit but doesn't leave me feeling confident going in, that's for sure! :o

CE750
08-27-2007, 11:12 AM
Mis-posted.

bluejuice
08-27-2007, 11:16 AM
Congratulations, you are the king idiot of this board. "Gee, guys, which watch should I wear the Breitling or the Rolex?"

Complete moron

HercDriver130
08-27-2007, 11:22 AM
Dont drive your Benz .... or wear that Armani suit either.

Split S
08-27-2007, 11:59 AM
In all seriousness - There's no need to call some one an idiot/moron - he's nervous for the interview experience and wants to ensure he puts his best foot forward. However, I would also put forth that there is such thing as taking anal retentiveness(sp?) in interview prep too far... Trust me I know I seriously stressed about suits and ties prior to my round of airline interviews. Point being, in the end your attire needs to merely project the professional that you are. Wear the watch/suit/tie that makes you the most comfortable, so you are at your best during the interview - not worrying about your clothes. GOOD LUCK.

-SS

CE750
08-27-2007, 12:00 PM
Congratulations, you are the king idiot of this board. "Gee, guys, which watch should I wear the Breitling or the Rolex?"

Complete moron

Nevermind, not worht it!.. :rolleyes:

CE750
08-27-2007, 12:01 PM
In all seriousness - There's no need to call some one an idiot/moron - he's nervous for the interview experience and wants to ensure he puts his best foot forward. However, I would also put forth that there is such thing as taking anal retentiveness(sp?) in interview prep too far... Trust me I know I seriously stressed about suits and ties prior to my round of airline interviews. Point being, in the end your attire needs to merely project the professional that you are. Wear the watch/suit/tie that makes you the most comfortable, so you are at your best during the interview - not worrying about your clothes. GOOD LUCK.

-SS


thanks for the tip Split S... Good points you make.

NGINEWHOISWHAT
08-27-2007, 12:18 PM
How are the guys/gals with prior enlisted military time, and civilian flying backgrounds look upon when they interview? Any different do you think? Would it help any, even if it's enlisted, non-flying experience?

I'm just curious.

IMO, a good light. Non-commissioned life was far more difficult that commissioned life. I had plenty of schools on the DD 214. The number of schools and awards you have look better to a future employer. Good luck with it.

Tom

StripAlert
08-27-2007, 05:05 PM
5/7 Conditionally Hired (3 Mil/Fmr Mil and 2 All-Civ)

1 USAF C-130 pilot on terminal leave
1 USN T-6/E-6 reservist / 121 B747 F/O
1 ANG C-130 pilot (2nd Interview at DAL)
1 121 RJ Capt (2nd Interview at DAL)
1 Female 121 RJ Capt
1 USN Retired C-2/T-6/T-39 / 121 B747 F/E
1 Former 121 Regional Capt / 121 B747 F/E

The other (non-WFFF) gouge floating around the bubba network is still spot on. As always, think for yourself--there are errors. (FWIW, my vote is "Brakes-As Required, Throttles-Idle, Speedbrakes-Deploy, Reversers-As Required"--that's from previous aircraft. That question was also not on anyone's test that I talked to.)

Overall, a fantastic experience. I've interviewed at both JetBlue and Southwest, and I never would've expected to have an even better time at Delta. Very professional and considerate, and they made us feel at home from the start. Even the two guys that didn't get the nod were treated with lots of respect throughout. Delta's a class act, and a company I look forward to working for.

My advice on the cognitive skills test is to take maximum advantage of the free, repeatable practice to figure out your strategy for making things as easy as possible before performing it for the score. (Hint: you have two hands, and there are lots of numbers on the keyboard to help you remember stuff.)

Good luck.

Gretzky
08-27-2007, 06:10 PM
5/7 Conditionally Hired (3 Mil/Fmr Mil and 2 All-Civ)

1 USAF C-130 pilot on terminal leave
1 USN T-6/E-6 reservist / 121 B747 F/O
1 ANG C-130 pilot (2nd Interview at DAL)
1 121 RJ Capt (2nd Interview at DAL)
1 Female 121 RJ Capt
1 USN Retired C-2/T-6/T-39 / 121 B747 F/E
1 Former 121 Regional Capt / 121 B747 F/E



Which of these were hired/not-hired? Any idea why the other 2 weren't hired?

StripAlert
08-27-2007, 06:35 PM
Which of these were hired/not-hired? Any idea why the other 2 weren't hired?

Last two not hired. Both great guys that I've been flying with for the past year or so in the 747 and one even longer in T-6's.

Former mil guy had some issues with the cog skills test--apparently his score dropped off precipitously on the last section. He's not sure what happened, and the test proctor said it was one of the strangest score sets he's seen. He was pretty much told to come back for another shot in six months.

Civ guy had a random bad performance in the interview, it seems. That kind of stuff can happen when you don't get a lot of sleep the night before, and I count myself fortunate that I managed to do as well as I did, given that I also got very little good rest. Unfortunately, if you tank the interview, you don't get another chance.

All of the applicants were top-notch as far as I could tell, and we got along great. If this is representative of the type of people Delta is hiring, I'll enjoy it here.

Split S
08-27-2007, 07:15 PM
StripAlert - congrats!! It's a great group up there doing the hiring, I felt. I class up on Monday and can't wait. That's a shame about the other two C360 guys :( Did they say beginning to mid Oct for class for you?

-SS

StripAlert
08-28-2007, 01:20 AM
Did they say beginning to mid Oct for class for you?

Actually, they didn't rule out the end of September either, but we'll see.

tantrum
08-28-2007, 04:28 AM
As far as the abort/reject order...it is spoilers, brakes, then thrust reversers. The reason spoilers is first is to remove lift from the wing and put the weight of the aircraft on the wheels so that the brakes are actually effective. Brakes don't work very well when a lot of the weight of the aircraft is being supported by the wing.

Hail does provide the biggest echos because hail is usually covered with a thin film of water hence hail looks like super huge water drops.

But like someone suggested earlier, research the answers yourself so you can know for sure.

CE750
08-28-2007, 05:43 AM
As far as the abort/reject order...it is spoilers, brakes, then thrust reversers. The reason spoilers is first is to remove lift from the wing and put the weight of the aircraft on the wheels so that the brakes are actually effective. Brakes don't work very well when a lot of the weight of the aircraft is being supported by the wing.

I completely agree with this, however the only problem I see is that in reality, one has more time to get to the brakes first than the spoilers, unless they (as a function of the throttles going to idle, as they're really going to be the first thing you do anyway) will auto-deploy. I recently had a 110kts rejected TO on the 11 at near MGTOW and the brakes were the first thing I did the spoilers did indeed deploy and then the TRs were well later. You answer makes the most sense from the test stand point I suppose however.


Hail does provide the biggest echos because hail is usually covered with a thin film of water hence hail looks like super huge water drops.




This one I'm in a bit of a quandary over as the density of the Hail is unlikely going to be the same as heavy rain (number of drops in a cubic foot). I have tried to do research on it on-line with no luck.

Anyway, one question shouldn't sink the ship!

CE750
08-28-2007, 06:46 AM
duplicate post

Express pilot
08-28-2007, 08:07 AM
I completely agree with this, however the only problem I see is that in reality, one has more time to get to the brakes first than the spoilers, unless they (as a function of the throttles going to idle, as they're really going to be the first thing you do anyway) will auto-deploy. I recently had a 110kts rejected TO on the 11 at near MGTOW and the brakes were the first thing I did the spoilers did indeed deploy and then the TRs were well later. You answer makes the most sense from the test stand point I suppose however.




This one I'm in a bit of a quandary over as the density of the Hail is unlikely going to be the same as heavy rain (number of drops in a cubic foot). I have tried to do research on it on-line with no luck.

Anyway, one question shouldn't sink the ship!

Put Hail, its right. The other guys that got hired with me put hail. On the mental math questions, I only had 2 that were off the gouge (word for word) The 5-6 other math questions were totally different from anything on the gouge questions. I guessed on all of those. Maybe I got some of them right. I know I got all the other 36 questions right. I passed is the important thing. Wish I could remember those other questions but I can't, they had to do with drift angle and combined with something else. The cog is not that bad, just do the practice test before you start the real thing. My opinion is go fast, not quick with your answers and try to get them right. I think it takes a % of how many you missed vs how fast you went. Going fast scores more points than slow and all the right answers. The 3 on 1 is the most important. Very relaxed, great people. They want to see your a leader and a strong CA in and out of the cockpit. I just put myself in real life terms and how I would really handle the situation. Good luck and relax. They want to hire you.

Bucking Bar
08-28-2007, 10:13 AM
My advice on the cognitive skills test is to take maximum advantage of the free, repeatable practice to figure out your strategy for making things as easy as possible before performing it for the score. (Hint: you have two hands, and there are lots of numbers on the keyboard to help you remember stuff.)

Good luck.Now that is interesting. Never tried that.

While in recruiting today, I spoke with the interviewers, managers and receptionist. Many people trying to interview with Delta overlook the obvious - so it is worth reviewing:

(1) Make sure your application is accurate, reflects where you are, what you have been doing and if you have done something to excel at a past position, go ahead and brag a little. The Managers' entire situational awareness of who you are as a person and a pilot is based on what is in the AirApps system. You might be detail oriented in real life, but they will never know it if they find spelling errors, punctuation errors and items not filled out completely, or items that do not match other parts of the application. Consider the application test #1. You have to make 100% to go to the next stage. Hundreds of people have been looked at and their applications re-filed back in the stack because they have not been careful with the application.

(2) Make sure the application is PERFECT before the interview. Changes at the interview could be considered "lying" which is an immediate disqualifier.

(3) When Delta interviews pilots, I think they imagine what that candidate is going to look like in the Delta uniform. The image of a Delta pilot is important to Delta management. This means brass not silver, round toe not square, lace up not slip on, etc. A conservative suit and tie, most likely a red one with a white shirt. Take your jacket off if you must, but like folks getting interviewed on TV, you look better with your jacket on.

(4) You want to be courteous and responsive in your communications. Do not call the Chief Pilot's office and expect them to track down someone in recruiting to deliver a message. Use the correct phone numbers (the airport and the General Offices are close, but not the same thing).

The test gouge is not completely correct and the test does pull from a bank of questions (I think). It is useful for studying subject matter. When I did the test the most accurate guide was the Gleim ATP written test. The interview test is easy compared to your "electronic system validation" you will take after your first week of training (after indoc).

Military / Civillian debate:

It depends entirely on the candidate. From what I've seen the single seat guys appear lost the first day of any training section. By day three they are the "go to" person for complex questions. The 121 guys know more coming in the door, but the fighter types are astonishingly quick at catching up. Delta's new hire manager appears to realize that a good balance is the best for Delta. So you will see many Fighter pilot / 121 Captain pairings in class and training.

Future Hiring:

There may be a slow down, or stop, in November / December. It is known that Delta was going to take a break for the Holiday season.

Future Hiring (my perhaps mistaken opinion):

Just look at the airplanes coming in 2008. 10 757-ER's, 10 737's, 2 777's (maybe more). Rumors of a bunch of MD90's and if they don't show up hopefully Delta will get a substitute. The last bid with 609 advancements was the result of one 777. A big airplane causes a lot of movement since they require more staffing than smaller, short range, aircraft. With this growth comes lots of opportunity and it is looking to me like 70 to 75 a month until the end of next year. Then it will depend on further growth (likely) and the beginning of retirements (not many for another 5 years, or longer).

Bucking Bar
08-28-2007, 10:29 AM
Put Hail, its right. According to the Honeywell Pilot's Handbook (did the E145 have the Honeywell Primus Digital box?)

Storms and Rain Gradients - Pg. 60
"Hail and turbulence are the principal weather conditions that detract from safe, comfortable, flight; yet, neither of these conditions is directly visible in the radar display...."

Pg. 63

"As previously stated hail is a poor reflector...."

The chapter then continues by teaching the pilot techniques to see the core of the storm which is obvious because it is missing from the returns from the middle of a cell.

I'm not saying you are wrong - but if the test says the answer is "hail" they made an error on the test. There is such a thing as "wet hail" but it does not exist in that state for long before dry freezing and it usually travelling vertically at speeds "in excess of 200 miles per hour" while in that condition.

CE750
08-28-2007, 10:56 AM
I'm thinking that they passed the test inspite of the wrong answer on the hail... You're correct Bucking Bar (thanks for all the help btw), wet hail is the highest, but rain is above basic hail or snow/ice.

StripAlert
08-28-2007, 11:04 AM
When Delta interviews pilots, I think they imagine what that candidate is going to look like in the Delta uniform. The image of a Delta pilot is important to Delta management. This means brass not silver, round toe not square, lace up not slip on, etc. A conservative suit and tie, most likely a red one with a white shirt. Take your jacket off if you must, but like folks getting interviewed on TV, you look better with your jacket on.

I have a hard time believing that they care about the color of your watch or tie tack. (I wore silver, BTW, and there were a couple of non-black-suit-red-tie folks in the "hired" column.) I took my jacket off because one of my interviewers already had a hangar in one hand and the other was extended when I walked in the room. What it boils down to, in my opinion, is how you perform in the interview, more than what you're wearing or whether you drink the water or rock in the rocking chair.

Make sure your application is accurate, reflects where you are, what you have been doing and if you have done something to excel at a past position, go ahead and brag a little. The Managers' entire situational awareness of who you are as a person and a pilot is based on what is in the AirApps system. You might be detail oriented in real life, but they will never know it if they find spelling errors, punctuation errors and items not filled out completely, or items that do not match other parts of the application. Consider the application test #1. You have to make 100% to go to the next stage. Hundreds of people have been looked at and their applications re-filed back in the stack because they have not been careful with the application.

This is deadly accurate. When I sat down, it was immediately obvious that all three interviewers were intimately familiar with most of what was on my application. They asked pointed and intelligent questions about seemingly ancillary details. There were none of the obviously inapplicable questions that I've been asked at previous interviews, which demonstrate that those previous interviewers probably didn't review my app very closely.

Express pilot
08-28-2007, 11:05 AM
I'm thinking that they passed the test inspite of the wrong answer on the hail... You're correct Bucking Bar (thanks for all the help btw), wet hail is the highest, but rain is above basic hail or snow/ice.

Put what you want, everyone I've talked to says hail and 3 are in training and me and the other 2 are waiting for a class date. Like you said, its just one question. Good luck and I hope you get the job.

StripAlert
08-28-2007, 11:11 AM
As far as the abort/reject order...it is spoilers, brakes, then thrust reversers. The reason spoilers is first is to remove lift from the wing and put the weight of the aircraft on the wheels so that the brakes are actually effective. Brakes don't work very well when a lot of the weight of the aircraft is being supported by the wing.

Per our ops manual for the 747, it's simultaneously throttles idle, autothrottle disengaged, and maximum wheel brakes. Then reversers. Then verify spoiler deployed.

In the E-6 (B707), it was wheel brakes, throttles, speedbrakes, reversers. (No autothrottle takeoff, no auto-spoilers.) Note in the NATOPS manual was that you could continue accelerating by 10 knots if you delay applying the wheel brakes immediately while closing out the throttles, etc.

Varies considerably by aircraft, and, I bet, by operator. Hopefully that question isn't popping up anymore.

CE750
08-28-2007, 12:38 PM
I have a hard time believing that they care about the color of your watch or tie tack. (I wore silver, BTW, and there were a couple of non-black-suit-red-tie folks in the "hired" column.) I took my jacket off because one of my interviewers already had a hangar in one hand and the other was extended when I walked in the room. What it boils down to, in my opinion, is how you perform in the interview, more than what you're wearing or whether you drink the water or rock in the rocking chair.


Ok, now you've got me going again! :D

Tie rack? I don't even own one! Was EVERYONE wearing one of those? My suit is blue and that's not going to change this late in the game! ;)

pilotss
08-28-2007, 12:40 PM
In the FTH it is stated as Spoilers, Reversers, then Brakes.

I noticed that the last chapter of the current FTH had many of the answers from the list of questions.

Page 213 Handling the big jets.

Spoilers up, reversers, brakes.

Airbus procedure

Spoilers, Reverse, Brakes.

On the Mach change notification it states word for word in the FAR as an example 10 percent of the airspeed or if mach .02. It actually gives the example if at .86 then .84.

CE750
08-28-2007, 12:45 PM
In the FTH it is stated as Spoilers, Reversers, then Brakes.

I noticed that the last chapter of the current FTH had many of the answers from the list of questions.

interesting, what is the FTH? some sort of test you take in training? It's odd that it would be that however, but if it's in there then it's what they want to hear. On a normal landing rollout this is exactly the way to stop a plane, when you're not in a huge hurry... but if you're trying to stop a 600,000 lb airplane in a hurry with only 1/3 of the runway left, I find it hard to believe they expect you to wait on the TRs and get the spoilers out (assuming they don't auto deploy at idle) to deploy before you apply max brakes :confused:..

Split S
08-28-2007, 01:02 PM
I put rain, and I converted Mach to TAS and then took 5%. *shrug* Right or wrong, I'm still starting class on Monday :D. My favorite was the flag man on the COG!

I wore a blue suit, white shirt, red tie, silver belt buckle, black shoes with round toe, silver watch, boxers or briefs... I still say look your best and look professional. *but I did wear a blue suit, red tie, silver belt buckle, black shoes with round toe, silver watch....*

-SS

CE750
08-28-2007, 01:15 PM
.

Airbus procedure

Spoilers, Reverse, Brakes.
.


odd that Airbus and Boeing would contradict each other on something! :D

This is the word for word QRH read from the DAL 767 I got from my friend and also word for word on the radar from the DAL manuals:




I have spent some time researching DAL ops manuals on the two issues of RTO's and WX returns. Operations have changed like I said, so I wanted to give you the verbiage from our manuals.

First WX returns, simple:

moisture reflectivity impacts displayed intensity. Snow and dry hail provide weak returns. Rain and wet precip are good reflectors. Ice crystals will not produce radar returns. Terrain of course is highly reflective. The intent of this knowledge is to realize that at high cruise levels where TB's top out, the frozen area at the tops may not produce a radar return, but can still be a hazard. So, radar tilt management knowledge and the limitations of the equipment will be handy when evaluating precip at altitude.

Strong Returns

Wet Hail
Wet Snow
Rain
Hail
Snow

Weak Returns




Now for the RTO:

According to our QRH (quick reference handbook) for 757/767. I assume the same for other aircraft. Delta does a good job of aligning the procedures and terminology for the entire fleet for continuity. It says:

I. w/o delay, simultaneously....

close the trust levers,
disengage auto throttles
apply maximum manual wheel brakes or verify operation of RTO auto brakes.

II. Apply maximum reverse thrust consistent with conditions

III. *RAISE SPEEDBRAKE LEVER

*note: the captain has the option to manually deploy the the speed brakes prior to thrust reverser actuation.



hope it's ok to quote this stuff on-line.. if not someone tell me and I'll remove it. :cool:

CE750
08-28-2007, 01:27 PM
On the Mach change notification it states word for word in the FAR as an example 10 percent of the airspeed or if mach .02. It actually gives the example if at .86 then .84.

Also, on this, I think it's safe to assume that at cruise alt and higher mach numbers (say .70 and greater) that 10 kts will occur before 5%, so it's usually going to be roughly .02M.. down low and slow, 5% will likely control.. I think DAL's questions focus on the higher altitude so it's usually going to be .02M below the speed you are currently at. Unless the 5% applies to IAS, in which case you have to do the conversion like SplitS did to get the best answer..

pilotss
08-28-2007, 02:07 PM
Good stuff to think on...I am learning a lot by studying for this interview.

question on the 767. Are the speedbrakes auto activated prior to the manual deployment? Here is my reason for asking. The coefficient of braking is dependent on the amount of fricgtion force applied and friction will depend on weight. If your wing is still producing lift your braking is not as efficient as it should be. I believe most ground spoilers deploy at WOW and antiskid kicks in at a function of speed. Autobrakes are synched to the spoilers in the bus. The spoilers will deploy prior to the autobrakes even at maximum. Autobrake levels are synched at a time duration from the time they are allowed to deploy again depending on spoiler activation. Brakes can't be applied on landing or you'd slam the nose down. Spoilers occur at touchdown. Anyone have different info on spoiler activation? Are yours completely manual? So many aircraft and I am sure there are tons of differing techniques.



For a reject I have to do some research.

I'll check over with the guys at pprune and see what I can dig up.

Thanks for the input. Good discussion.

CE the FTH is the Flight Training Handbook, a basic FAA publication. They have a small chapter in the back that involves jet flying. Also I don't think that you have to wait for the TRs to fully activate until braking occurs. I believe you want the TRs activated first then brake. Some aircraft you must be careful on activation due to the high rear thrust line position. But you can use TR activation before the nosewheel hits the ground. I was thinking the activation sequence.

Lets hear some thoughts.

Cheers,

CE750
08-28-2007, 02:58 PM
good thread indeed, and I agree with you about the importance of braking effectiveness by adding spoilers. I know the MD-11 will automatically deploy them if the throttles are retarded to idle on a takeoff roll (I want to say past 80kts), and I am told the 767 does the same. With that said, the question doesn't address automatic systems, as we also have autobrakes that will kick on when the throttles are retarded to idle on a takeoff roll... I think this is more of a manual aircraft question.. Priority should be on getting the brakes going first then the rest I think.

Would be nice to be able to ask the DAL people what the answer is after one takes the test, buy somehow I don't think they'd tell! ;)

Split S
08-28-2007, 03:10 PM
When I asked the proctor, he said they don't give you your scores or answers just tell you that you passed. If you fail I think they may go over some of the areas that you had difficulty with. At least that's how they ran it on my interview day, no one got their scores they just got the job or got the "Thanks for coming".


Would be nice to be able to ask the DAL people what the answer is after one takes the test, buy somehow I don't think they'd tell! ;)

CE750
08-28-2007, 03:34 PM
ok, keeping this fun... now what is this crap about climbing out to your alternate at L/Dmax?? That would yield for a most uncomfortable deck angle, no? :confused:

StripAlert
08-28-2007, 08:46 PM
Can't vouch for the 767 (yet), but on the 74, the spoilers deploy on an RTO with the reversers (number two, particularly, if I recall correctly). Doesn't surprise me that our manuals mirror the Delta procedures, considering C360's pedigree.

You are correct that the maximum available friction force of the brakes is directly proportional to the normal force between the tires and the runway, and that deploying the spoilers will dump lift and significantly increase that force. However, that does not mean that the brakes are completely ineffective before the spoilers are deployed. Quite to the contrary, on an RTO, applying the wheel brakes expeditiously is the absolute fastest way to begin dissipating energy and get the airplane transitioned from go to stop. Applying "maximum braking" immediately. combined with an operational anti-skid system, will ensure that you get all the available braking effectiveness working in your favor while the reversers deploy, consequentially deploying the spoilers and thereby reducing lift, increasing the normal force between the tires and the runway, and increasing braking effectiveness.

As someone else mentioned, this can be contrasted to the normal landing procedure where saving the brakes and minimizing brake energy are the prime concerns, and going off the end of the runway is unlikely. In that event, spoilers auto-deploy on touchdown, and their initial contribution is more in the form of drag than lift-dumping, as the brakes are saved for later. Then reversers, which are most effective at high airspeeds. Finally brakes are used sparingly at the end, if possible, to finish the maneuver.

A high speed abort in a heavy is dramatically different than the same maneuver in an RJ or A320. 830,000 pounds thundering down 9,000 feet of runway at over 120 knots represents a lot of kinetic energy. (Typical V1 in a max gross configuration for the 747 is around 160 KIAS on dry pavement.) For that reason, an engine failure, fire, or another malfunction that makes the aircraft physically incapable of flight are the only things that you'd execute an abort for above 80-100 KIAS. In the event of an RTO above 80 knots, you can count on extremely hot brakes. Much more than that, and you might be lucky to clear the runway before 16 fuse plugs melt.

My point is that, in a heavy, a high speed RTO is not a taxi back and do it over maneuver. Your main concern is stopping on the runway available, and the brakes are going to be sacrificed, so there's no point in trying to save them. Since they are the only thing that is going to elicit an immediate deceleration (even closing out the throttles lags for spool-down), they come first in the procedure, although in practical application, it all happens more or less simultaneously and is largely a matter of semantics, save for airline interview testing.

However, you certainly wouldn't delay closing out the throttles while you reach for the speedbrake lever, nor would you want to put off applying the brakes while waiting for the spoilers and reversers to deploy. Will they be more effective with the spoilers deployed? Absolutely, but that's no reason not to take advantage of their immediate effectiveness in the interim.

Flare Armed
08-28-2007, 08:49 PM
767 Speedbrakes autodeploy on landing with them in the armed position, weight on wheels, thrust levers closed. On an RTO, they autodeploy when you select reverse thrust.

StripAlert
08-28-2007, 09:15 PM
Brakes can't be applied on landing or you'd slam the nose down.

Not necessarily true. On aircraft with twin-tandem gear (more than two wheels per truck), the moment introduced by the braking action is going to be confined to the truck itself. The pivot joint between the truck and the strut won't pass it on. (The procedure for landing with the nose gear retracted in the E-6 calls for application of both brakes and reversers prior to gently setting the nose on the pavement right before losing elevator effectiveness. Can't say as I've done it in the aircraft, but I have in the sim many times, and there's really no noticeable back-force required on the yoke upon brake application.)

oinkflyer
08-28-2007, 10:28 PM
Could someone point me in the direction of the "other non-WFFF" gouge floating around? Thanks:)

Gretzky
08-28-2007, 11:24 PM
Could someone point me in the direction of the "other non-WFFF" gouge floating around? Thanks:)

Why? You don't need anything else...

StripAlert
08-29-2007, 03:53 AM
Could someone point me in the direction of the "other non-WFFF" gouge floating around? Thanks:)

If you're a mil guy or know anyone who is, just ask around. There's some real good stuff floating around the bubba network... The WFFF gouge is real good also.

RockyBoy
08-29-2007, 08:27 AM
Wore a blue suit with silver stripes, a multicolored tie that was blue, silver, and red, a pair of burgundy round toe shoes, silver belt buckle, and no watch. I had a new tailored shirt that was pressed so I took the jacket off for the interview. I also sat on the couch for the psych interview and commented on how comfortable it was. I got the job so I wouldn't worry much about the color of your suit, tie, shoes, buckle, watch, or where to sit for the psych. Just get a new tailored suit, a tailored white shirt, and a new tie that isn't light colored. If you go dark blue with the suit, the style nowadays is the dark blood red colored shoes and belt. The square toed shoes are also kinda fading out so I would go with some nice looking round toes. If your not good at picking out stuff that looks good, go with the good old plain black suit, black shoes, and red tie. That never fails.

brucemcgehee
08-29-2007, 08:31 AM
The proper sequence is brakes, spoilers, reverse, just like we've always done it in the airplane. Brakes are what stop the airplane, spoilers put maximum weight on the gear for maximum brake effectiveness, and reverse has been shown to have a minimal effect on stopping distance. Check out this study by the Flight Safety Foundation: http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_sep90.pdf. See page 4 of 6. But like most of you have said, it all happens pretty much simultaneously, since the ground spoilers auto-deploy and you're gonna bring in the reverse while pulling the throttles (or thrust levers, if you fly an Airbus like me) to idle. Just my two cents.

brucemcgehee
08-29-2007, 08:42 AM
Could someone point me in the direction of the "other non-WFFF" gouge floating around? Thanks:)

I have some stuff. Some of it's repetitive, but there are a few minor nuances that might be helpful. Email me at [email protected] and I will send it to you.

Cheers,

Moose

brucemcgehee
08-29-2007, 11:34 AM
While we're at it on the gouge, will somebody check my math here? If you're doing 0.85M, how far can you slow before you have to tell ATC? I say 0.81M but most of the gouge I've seen says 0.83M. Here's my reasoning: You have to report a change of 10 kts or 5%, whichever is greater; 0.85M = 510 KTAS; 5% of 510 is about 25 kts; 510 - 25 = 485 KTAS = about 0.81M. Did I do that right or am I losing it? Somebody offer me some insight please.

Thanks,

Moose

dbtownley
08-29-2007, 12:44 PM
Chunks

I assume it went well? I guess you have a decision to make now. How much longer are you in corpus? Where are you going when you get out?? Back to AR??? I would have sent you a PM, but this is my first post.

JC
Big Daddy

Ok, found the post. Good talking to you! Let me know if you need any other info for DAL.

DT

brucemcgehee
08-30-2007, 10:20 AM
The proper sequence is brakes, spoilers, reverse, just like we've always done it in the airplane. Brakes are what stop the airplane, spoilers put maximum weight on the gear for maximum brake effectiveness, and reverse has been shown to have a minimal effect on stopping distance. Check out this study by the Flight Safety Foundation: http://www.flightsafety.org/ap/ap_sep90.pdf. See page 4 of 6. But like most of you have said, it all happens pretty much simultaneously, since the ground spoilers auto-deploy and you're gonna bring in the reverse while pulling the throttles (or thrust levers, if you fly an Airbus like me) to idle. Just my two cents.

I made a mistake here -- I thought the question was about stopping an aircraft on an aborted takeoff, but apparently it's about stopping an aircraft on landing. That's a completely different discussion. I apologize if my post created any confusion.

Professor
08-31-2007, 05:05 AM
Just FYI for all:

8/29 Interview Group: 1 of 7 hired

Male XJET Capt
Male XJET Capt
Female Xjet Capt
Male CAL 75/76 F/O
Male USNR/Customs 73NG/Citation/C-2 background
Male ASA Capt
Male USNR T45 reservist/ EA6B background

944Turbo
08-31-2007, 06:03 AM
Just FYI for all:

8/29 Interview Group: 1 of 7 hired

Male XJET Capt
Male XJET Capt
Female Xjet Capt
Male CAL 75/76 F/O
Male USNR/Customs 73NG/Citation/C-2 background
Male ASA Capt
Male USNR T45 reservist/ EA6B background

Who made it?

JoeyMeatballs
08-31-2007, 06:08 AM
Who made it?



I dont know, but I have heard of a few CAL guys leaving there to go to SWA, UPS, now DELTA?????????

Its amazing I would give my left nut to fly for CAL, and here this guy is on the 756 for them and he wants to go to DELTA, crazy crazy industry

Professor
08-31-2007, 06:11 AM
USNR t45 dude

Failures were half interview/half test.

Express pilot
08-31-2007, 06:23 AM
I dont know, but I have heard of a few CAL guys leaving there to go to SWA, UPS, now DELTA?????????

Its amazing I would give my left nut to fly for CAL, and here this guy is on the 756 for them and he wants to go to DELTA, crazy crazy industry

1st year pay at CAL is around 28-30, no health for 6 months
1st year at DAL is 49, health 1st day of training

Also DAL has taken pay cuts and there pay is still better and work rules better than CAL. All that when CAL has not taken 45% pay cuts. CAL has been hiring for awhile now. DAL is on the front side of hiring. It all makes since to me. Plus in my I think DAL is in another league than CAL. Back in the day all the pilots were trying to get on with DAL, UAL, and AA. Scabs went to CAL.

JoeyMeatballs
08-31-2007, 06:31 AM
1st year pay at CAL is around 28-30, no health for 6 months
1st year at DAL is 49, health 1st day of training

Also DAL has taken pay cuts and there pay is still better and work rules better than CAL. All that when CAL has not taken 45% pay cuts. CAL has been hiring for awhile now. DAL is on the front side of hiring. It all makes since to me. Plus in my I think DAL is in another league than CAL. Back in the day all the pilots were trying to get on with DAL, UAL, and AA. Scabs went to CAL.

hahah I know, I know but still Out of EWR, home for me, then agian 76 out of JFK for DAL, make lotsa money...........hmmmmmmmmmmm haha Yeah well see what the CAL guys get next contract

Express pilot
08-31-2007, 06:36 AM
hahah I know, I know but still Out of EWR, home for me, then agian 76 out of JFK for DAL, make lotsa money...........hmmmmmmmmmmm haha Yeah well see what the CAL guys get next contract

Some guys in the Aug. 20th class got 767ER out of NY, which is Intl.
I hope the CAL guys get alot, for the industry
DAL is up in 2010

Raging white
08-31-2007, 06:47 AM
Just FYI for all:

8/29 Interview Group: 1 of 7 hired

Male XJET Capt
Male XJET Capt
Female Xjet Capt
Male CAL 75/76 F/O
Male USNR/Customs 73NG/Citation/C-2 background
Male ASA Capt
Male USNR T45 reservist/ EA6B background

Wow, surprising, given the "on-paper' talent and experience. Especially strange that 4 CA's were not selected.

dbtownley
08-31-2007, 06:59 AM
Just FYI for all:

8/29 Interview Group: 1 of 7 hired

Male XJET Capt
Male XJET Capt
Female Xjet Capt
Male CAL 75/76 F/O
Male USNR/Customs 73NG/Citation/C-2 background
Male ASA Capt
Male USNR T45 reservist/ EA6B background

Who was the C-2 guy? Where does he fly now?

Professor
08-31-2007, 07:12 AM
Can't drop names in a public forum, since I'm not the C-2 guy.
He flies in SD.

Bucking Bar
08-31-2007, 07:15 AM
I dont know, but I have heard of a few CAL guys leaving there to go to SWA, UPS, now DELTA?????????

Its amazing I would give my left nut to fly for CAL, and here this guy is on the 756 for them and he wants to go to DELTA, crazy crazy industryWe had a really sharp guy in our class off the 757/767 at CAL. He always wanted to fly for Delta and the Delta bases appealed to him.

As far as the 1 in 7 goes, that is surprising given the quality of those candidates. Could it be that Delta already has what they need for classes through October? I had heard Delta was going to take November and December off, then start back in the spring.

Professor
08-31-2007, 07:28 AM
I don't think so. There is so little variability from one interview day to the next (because the entire interview process is so standardized). The only change day to day are the line experienced interviewers. From an informal poll, everyones interview was about normal.

W/ regard to classes...only Sep classes have been filled. FYI.

Just a bad day really, that is all. I wouldn't read too much into it. It just sucks.

Express pilot
08-31-2007, 09:12 AM
I don't think so. There is so little variability from one interview day to the next (because the entire interview process is so standardized). The only change day to day are the line experienced interviewers. From an informal poll, everyones interview was about normal.

W/ regard to classes...only Sep classes have been filled. FYI.

Just a bad day really, that is all. I wouldn't read too much into it. It just sucks.

How do you know all the Sept. classes have been filled?

Professor
08-31-2007, 09:54 AM
How do you know all the Sept. classes have been filled? I don't...100%. I just remember the pilot hiring team saying something to that effect. I could absolutely be mistaken. I have also heard that the 17th's class is still open. Good call man, thanks...take what I say w/ a grain of salt.

Split S
08-31-2007, 10:17 AM
Monday's class has 32 starting in it.

Raging white
08-31-2007, 11:44 AM
Monday's class has 32 starting in it.



Does Delta tell you your plane/domicile assignment prior to class?

HVYinRESERVE
08-31-2007, 11:56 AM
Does Delta tell you your plane/domicile assignment prior to class?

From what I've heard, you get it on day one or two of INDOC, after you figure out seniority within the class. I start on Monday, so I'll know for sure then. :D

scrapdog
08-31-2007, 02:25 PM
1st year pay at CAL is around 28-30, no health for 6 months
1st year at DAL is 49, health 1st day of training

Also DAL has taken pay cuts and there pay is still better and work rules better than CAL. All that when CAL has not taken 45% pay cuts. CAL has been hiring for awhile now. DAL is on the front side of hiring. It all makes since to me. Plus in my I think DAL is in another league than CAL. Back in the day all the pilots were trying to get on with DAL, UAL, and AA. Scabs went to CAL.

Wow - this post is slightly ignoramous, don't you think? Look, I fly for CAL, but by no means is this my dream job (airline flying that is) so I'm not going to puff up with pride here...but DAL being in a "different" league than CAL? You've got to be absolutely ******ing kidding me. DAL has some of the dirtiest MD-80's in the CONUS. I think I've found more of a meal in the seat rails than the one bag of sun chips that they give you on domestic flights. And customer service at DAL...I'd say marginal at best. Is CAL amazing? No - not in the least...but I do think that CAL has some very solid customer service and has maintained that bottom line for years (and I noticed this years before I started flying for them).

Ok...1st year pay. At CAL it sucks. At DAL is still sucks, but not as bad. At UPS it also sucks. That's what 1st year pay does on every major...it sucks - it's just varying degrees of suck. You have to look at the big picture. CAL's current contract is mediocre. DAL's is just slightly better. The beauty is, is that CAL has a new contract coming down the pike very soon. And since they've made money the last 6 quarters and was named airline of the year by Forbes - I'd say CAL has the potential to have a very sweet, FDX/UPS like contract in the near future. DAL - who knows...that's a number of years away. Pre 9/11 DAL, UAL, and AA were the place to work. And in 2007 that couldn't be further from the truth.

Now, UPS and FDX - yes...currently that is a different league than CAL. DAL a different league? Hardly.

Express pilot
08-31-2007, 02:39 PM
Wow - this post is slightly ignoramous, don't you think? Look, I fly for CAL, but by no means is this my dream job (airline flying that is) so I'm not going to puff up with pride here...but DAL being in a "different" league than CAL? You've got to be absolutely ******ing kidding me. DAL has some of the dirtiest MD-80's in the CONUS. I think I've found more of a meal in the seat rails than the one bag of sun chips that they give you on domestic flights. And customer service at DAL...I'd say marginal at best. Is CAL amazing? No - not in the least...but I do think that CAL has some very solid customer service and has maintained that bottom line for years (and I noticed this years before I started flying for them).

Ok...1st year pay. At CAL it sucks. At DAL is still sucks, but not as bad. At UPS it also sucks. That's what 1st year pay does on every major...it sucks - it's just varying degrees of suck. You have to look at the big picture. CAL's current contract is mediocre. DAL's is just slightly better. The beauty is, is that CAL has a new contract coming down the pike very soon. And since they've made money the last 6 quarters and was named airline of the year by Forbes - I'd say CAL has the potential to have a very sweet, FDX/UPS like contract in the near future. DAL - who knows...that's a number of years away. Pre 9/11 DAL, UAL, and AA were the place to work. And in 2007 that couldn't be further from the truth.

Now, UPS and FDX - yes...currently that is a different league than CAL. DAL a different league? Hardly.

Like I said earlier, Pilots were going to DAL, scabs were going to CAL.
DAL was at an all time low and there pay is still better than CAL. That is the point that I was making. Sorry to come off harsh. I don't think CAL is not all that bad. I still think DAL is in another league. Time will tell in the future, but again just look at the pay. 45% pay cut at DAL and CAL is still lower. I know CAL is working on a new contract, but they have always been a cut low on the pay between DAL, UAL, and AA. You make a point about UPS, and FDX. CAL in the past was never that close to DAL, UAL, and AA. Ask any of there pilots. They all wanted to go there before CAL. CAL was were the scabs went.

Express pilot
08-31-2007, 02:50 PM
Another question to ask yourself is you don't see any Delta new hires leaving for FDX, UPS, SW, and Delta. I know CAL has had a hard time keeping guys. I personally know a few.

757Driver
08-31-2007, 02:59 PM
Like I said earlier, Pilots were going to DAL, scabs were going to CAL.

Yes, from 1983-1985 scabs were getting hired at CAL. What about the other 90% of us who aren't? UAL had at one time just as many if not more scabs than CAL yet I don't see that comment from you.

A very broad and incorrect generalization.

Express pilot
08-31-2007, 03:04 PM
Yes, from 1983-1985 scabs were getting hired at CAL. What about the other 90% of us who aren't? UAL had at one time just as many if not more scabs than CAL yet I don't see that comment from you.

A very broad and incorrect generalization.

I understand, put what about all the other points I made. Still no Scabs at Delta.

Flatspin7
08-31-2007, 03:12 PM
So by your logic becuase 25 years ago CAL had people cross the picket line the company sucks? The managment team who set that all in motion are long gone and many of the scabs have retired and the remained have been so outnumbered their voice is basically irrelevant.

Our pay and work rules need improvement (OK its an understatment... work rules suck) but that doesnt mean I dont have a good time when I go to work. I fly with great people, in good equipment (save for a few -300s) and look foreward to going to work in the morning.

Express pilot
08-31-2007, 03:15 PM
So by your logic becuase 25 years ago CAL had people cross the picket line the company sucks? The managment team who set that all in motion are long gone and many of the scabs have retired and the remained have been so outnumbered their voice is basically irrelevant.

Our pay and work rules need improvement (OK its an understatment... work rules suck) but that doesnt mean I dont have a good time when I go to work. I fly with great people, in good equipment (save for a few -300s) and look foreward to going to work in the morning.

Like I said earlier, I think CAL is a good company. I just think Delta is better and other companys are better. That was the start to all this. CAL is still a good job. There are better options in my opinion.

scrapdog
09-01-2007, 06:39 AM
Like I said earlier, I think CAL is a good company. I just think Delta is better and other companys are better. That was the start to all this. CAL is still a good job. There are better options in my opinion.

Dude, you're a clown. DAL in a league of their own? Not even close. You want to talk about newhires leaving DAL for FDX, UPS, etc? CAL's been hiring the last couple of years...DAL opened their window the last few months (I believe Jan or Feb). Don't worry - as more guys (especially mil flyers since that's been a pretty big contingent of newhires at DAL) start getting picked up by FDX and UPS, they'll start trundling out the door from DAL just as quickly as a few folks have done at CAL. Gaurantee'd. Mark my words...it's just to early in the window so far for any major trends yet at good old DAL. And I know personally a few "old hires" that have recently left both DAL and UAL for FDX and UPS because they got absolutely raped on their retirements.

This is not a pride thing. CAL was the first to call me...I had app's into multiple other places as well (at that point DAL was still in bankruptcy and not hiring a soul). However, I think CAL is a good company and their customer service is top notch. DAL has some good points as well...but in a league of their own...absolutely, positively NOT.

jdt30
09-01-2007, 06:51 AM
Thanks Scrapdog you beat me to it.

Express pilot
09-01-2007, 07:55 AM
Dude, you're a clown. DAL in a league of their own? Not even close. You want to talk about newhires leaving DAL for FDX, UPS, etc? CAL's been hiring the last couple of years...DAL opened their window the last few months (I believe Jan or Feb). Don't worry - as more guys (especially mil flyers since that's been a pretty big contingent of newhires at DAL) start getting picked up by FDX and UPS, they'll start trundling out the door from DAL just as quickly as a few folks have done at CAL. Gaurantee'd. Mark my words...it's just to early in the window so far for any major trends yet at good old DAL. And I know personally a few "old hires" that have recently left both DAL and UAL for FDX and UPS because they got absolutely raped on their retirements.

This is not a pride thing. CAL was the first to call me...I had app's into multiple other places as well (at that point DAL was still in bankruptcy and not hiring a soul). However, I think CAL is a good company and their customer service is top notch. DAL has some good points as well...but in a league of their own...absolutely, positively NOT.

Dude, I'm no clown. You keep skipping over all the points that I make. (PAY, NO HEALTH) There are tons of guys that get there type at CAL for free and go to SW. There are tons of guys that could have gone staright from Express to CAL b/c of the old flow through. Most of them did not. I still think CAL is a good job, there are just better options.

SabreDriver
09-01-2007, 08:36 AM
Another question to ask yourself is you don't see any Delta new hires leaving for FDX, UPS, SW, and Delta. I know CAL has had a hard time keeping guys. I personally know a few.

Sez it all :rolleyes:

I just don't buy your logic. I think DAL and CAL both have their positive points, depending on your perspective. They are both currently profitable and hiring companies, but one size does not fit all.

Express pilot, you're right, you should probably look somewhere besides CAL, it doesn't sound like you would be happy there, and it sure doesn't look like they would be either, but your milage may vary.

Split S
09-01-2007, 09:12 AM
Whitehurst tenders resignation.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10826

Thoughts/opinions?

dbtownley
09-01-2007, 11:00 AM
Whitehurst tenders resignation.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10826

Thoughts/opinions?

I think it is kind of sad. He thought he was going to take over and then WHAM-O! That new CEO announcement happened the morning of my interview, I am glad I read the paper.

cubflyer
09-01-2007, 01:31 PM
Just curious......I am an FO at ASA with 2300TT (and no hairgel, just a few greys), 1000 hrs SIC Jet. NO PIC JET TIME. Any chance of Delta hiring me?

I'm worried about my future at ASA.

CE750
09-01-2007, 02:58 PM
Just curious......I am an FO at ASA with 2300TT (and no hairgel, just a few greys), 1000 hrs SIC Jet. NO PIC JET TIME. Any chance of Delta hiring me?

I'm worried about my future at ASA.

Are you a woman? They just hired a woman with nothing more than Caravan time.. so it's possible if you're the "right" candidate.

Wish you the best.

cubflyer
09-01-2007, 04:55 PM
Are you a woman? They just hired a woman with nothing more than Caravan time.. so it's possible if you're the "right" candidate.

Wish you the best.

No...just a white male. I guess I will apply and see what happens. I've got an insider who I can use as a reference (B767 FO).

Thanks!

Adolphus Coors
09-01-2007, 05:05 PM
Just curious......I am an FO at ASA with 2300TT (and no hairgel, just a few greys), 1000 hrs SIC Jet. NO PIC JET TIME. Any chance of Delta hiring me?

I'm worried about my future at ASA.


Get some gel. I use a tun and it worked well.

FliFast
09-01-2007, 05:38 PM
I don't remember seeing any United, CAL, or DAL folks young or old being hired here at UPS in the last seven months. If there were, it's been less than you can count on one hand. Mostly Air Force guys are getting hired at UPS that I've seen.

FF

FIT59
09-01-2007, 06:05 PM
I don't remember seeing any United, CAL, or DAL folks young or old being hired here at UPS in the last seven months. If there were, it's been less than you can count on one hand. Mostly Air Force guys are getting hired at UPS that I've seen.

FF

You haven't been checking the New Hires page, have you!? Most of the guys hired from majors have been from NWA, AAI and JB; but there are several from CAL, UAL, DAL, and your favorite AA.

FIT59
09-01-2007, 06:07 PM
Plus, we don't need to be seen on the "majors" boards with our brown avatars, someone might notice!

reddog25
09-01-2007, 07:34 PM
I think DAL is in another league than CAL. .

League of their own...wasn't that a movie about girls?:cool:

FliFast
09-01-2007, 09:26 PM
You haven't been checking the New Hires page, have you!? Most of the guys hired from majors have been from NWA, AAI and JB; but there are several from CAL, UAL, DAL, and your favorite AA.

Do you work at the same airline I work at ????? :D

and your favorite AA.

I think I need a Rolaids. See ya at the finger.

FF

catIIIc
09-02-2007, 08:19 AM
Dude, I'm no clown. You keep skipping over all the points that I make. (PAY, NO HEALTH) There are tons of guys that get there type at CAL for free and go to SW. There are tons of guys that could have gone staright from Express to CAL b/c of the old flow through. Most of them did not. I still think CAL is a good job, there are just better options.

You say tons of guys, out the 1500 guys they have hired in the past 2.5 yrs 20-30 have left. I don't call that tons.

Roll Inverted and Pull
09-02-2007, 09:49 AM
You say tons of guys, out the 1500 guys they have hired in the past 2.5 yrs 20-30 have left. I don't call that tons.

Lets see..20-30 guys...lets call it 25....x about 175 lbs. per guy. That equals4375 pounds...sounds like tons to me....

Bucking Bar
09-02-2007, 03:38 PM
Are you a woman? They just hired a woman with nothing more than Caravan time.. so it's possible if you're the "right" candidate.

Wish you the best.
After flying one of those big C182's sans cowl flaps with a PT6 in the nose, I can not imagine jumping into the MD88. She's (he, anyone) with just Caravan time is going to have to be God's gift to aviation to make that transition. Could it be that this person also was a 737 scholarship winner? If so, that would be a big help and probably put her on equal footing with anyone else coming in the door.

Delta seems to be pretty objective.

Just trying to talk Delta on a Delta thread.

Guard Dude
09-03-2007, 04:43 PM
Whitehurst tenders resignation.

http://news.delta.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=10826

Thoughts/opinions?

I am as shocked as the rest of you when Jim quit. However, I am hearing from more people that it is not a bad thing. My last Capt was talking to an ALPA dude who thought Jim was not the right dude for the CEO job because he was always in the dark about the PWA. They had to correct him on some big attempted contract violations. When Jim spoke to my new hire class he stated he was at his dream job. Well, I guess not. So if he wants to throw his sucker in the dirt, then fine. Get someone in there that wants to be a Delta. My 2 cents

Wait let me get out of the way........

Okay, fire away!

G.Dude

Gretzky
09-03-2007, 09:55 PM
Heard something today from my CC (DAL Capt)...He read a financial speculation that DAL hired Anderson (former NWA CEO) to grease the skids for a "possible" NWA-DAL merger, with DAL being the absolvent one of the partnership...

I'm just wondering out loud...anyone else hear something similar?

STILL GROUNDED
09-03-2007, 10:08 PM
Looks like most pilots are from the regionals. :confused:

I am curious why you are confused by this?

Would you say someone would be more qualified by either?

A.) Landing C130s in deserts with 2500 hours Total Time

B.) F18's on carriers With 1800 Hours total Time

C.) Regional Jets at airports where mailine aircraft opperate with 5000 hours TT

I mean this as no offense to Millitary pilots, I was just wondering if that was what the gentleman was confused about.

STILL GROUNDED
09-03-2007, 10:12 PM
No...just a white male. I guess I will apply and see what happens. I've got an insider who I can use as a reference (B767 FO).

Thanks!

Ouch! No boobs and white too! It's a CRJ captain for you my friend.

Gretzky
09-04-2007, 05:50 AM
I am curious why you are confused by this?

Would you say someone would be more qualified by either?

A.) Landing C130s in deserts with 2500 hours Total Time

B.) F18's on carriers With 1800 Hours total Time

C.) Regional Jets at airports where mailine aircraft opperate with 5000 hours TT

I mean this as no offense to Millitary pilots, I was just wondering if that was what the gentleman was confused about.


If you had to ask, you wouldn't understand...

Deez340
09-04-2007, 08:25 PM
If you had to ask, you wouldn't understand...

I see you're waiting for a class. Good luck hope to see you one the line.
if you come to the shuttle your first expressway visual into
LGA on the maddog may help you with some of your confusion. All of my carrier landing buddies (so long as nobody was listening) have admitted they had not given civilian flying its due credit. they were all initially humbled by the dog and mastered it later. you will too.

Gretzky
09-04-2007, 09:36 PM
Flying, no matter your perspective, has its bug-a-boos. The most humbled I've ever been was starting, launching, navigating and landing a twin engine recip post years of mil flying. My hats off to those who have grown up in that world. The second most humbling experience flying was landing a DC-3 on a back-country strip. Again, my hats of to those who've flown 'em big in a tight squeeze. The third most humbling experience I've ever had was sequencing a King Air into a busy approach into Sea-Tac. It was my first experience with driving a straight wing into wake turbulence behind a series of heavies.

No disrespect here for anyone flying into harms way (which is every t/o and landing). If you've made it this far you've got, for the most part, all your ducks in a row. Comparing backgrounds serves only to split the cockpit...and that's not good. A C-130 landing in the middle of the Afghan desert on a hasty runway, a hornet landing on a pitching deck in the middle of the Indian Ocean and an RJ cycling through a jammed traffic pattern into LGA in the middle of an ice storm with wind shear warnings all share the same thing in common...the pucker factor. My hats off to all of them.

Deez340
09-05-2007, 06:27 AM
Flying, no matter your perspective, has its bug-a-boos. The most humbled I've ever been was starting, launching, navigating and landing a twin engine recip post years of mil flying. My hats off to those who have grown up in that world. The second most humbling experience flying was landing a DC-3 on a back-country strip. Again, my hats of to those who've flown 'em big in a tight squeeze. The third most humbling experience I've ever had was sequencing a King Air into a busy approach into Sea-Tac. It was my first experience with driving a straight wing into wake turbulence behind a series of heavies.

No disrespect here for anyone flying into harms way (which is every t/o and landing). If you've made it this far you've got, for the most part, all your ducks in a row. Comparing backgrounds serves only to split the cockpit...and that's not good. A C-130 landing in the middle of the Afghan desert on a hasty runway, a hornet landing on a pitching deck in the middle of the Indian Ocean and an RJ cycling through a jammed traffic pattern into LGA in the middle of an ice storm with wind shear warnings all share the same thing in common...the pucker factor. My hats off to all of them.

Well said.:D

Adolphus Coors
09-05-2007, 10:35 AM
Who cares about all this mil/civ stuff. Honestly by the time anyone is ready to begin training at DAL they have paid their dues in some form. Piloting is only one small part of our job, and it is trainable. The big mystery is personality and DAL seems to be doing a very good job finding great people who happen to be seasoned pilots.

My class was 17 mil and 14 civ. All of the mil dudes wanted to know about civ flying and all of the civ pilots were equally as interested in learning about our mil counterparts. The diversity was great and the conversations were more interesting as a result.

Good luck to all who want to get here.

A320fumes
09-05-2007, 10:58 AM
I see you're waiting for a class. Good luck hope to see you one the line.
if you come to the shuttle your first expressway visual into
LGA on the maddog may help you with some of your confusion. All of my carrier landing buddies (so long as nobody was listening) have admitted they had not given civilian flying its due credit. they were all initially humbled by the dog and mastered it later. you will too.

Good post Deez. I started with the majors in 1999. One of my UPT instructors, and OG/cc, was in my class. Didn't make it through the CRM portion of training. Two different jobs with two different missions. I love flying mil, but civvy guys make better union members, they show up ****ed off.

Xray678
09-05-2007, 01:28 PM
Two different jobs with two different missions. I love flying mil, but civvy guys make better union members, they show up ****ed off.

and that's why airlines love to hire military guys!

RedeyeAV8r
09-05-2007, 01:35 PM
and that's why airlines love to hire military guys!

especially retired ones!

C-17 Driver
09-05-2007, 02:41 PM
8 interviewees.

5 military 3 civilian. 2/8 hired (1 mil and 1 civilian).

It was a blood letting like last week.

dbtownley
09-05-2007, 04:07 PM
8 interviewees.

5 military 3 civilian. 2/8 hired (1 mil and 1 civilian).

It was a blood letting like last week.

Did you get it?

C-17 Driver
09-05-2007, 04:54 PM
Did you get it?

Yes. The other guy who was hired was ASA (I think..don't quote me on that).

I honestly don't know what the secret code is. The cog test was a ball buster and I thought for sure I tanked it. The gouge covered approx 40%-50% of the technical test, but the rest of the questions were very new to me. The whole group seemed like a great group of guys. Out of respect for those that did not get hired, I will refrain from posting whether or not it was the interview, testing, or both as to being the reason for not getting hired.

JoeyMeatballs
09-05-2007, 05:15 PM
Seems like they really like ASA guys................

Bucking Bar
09-05-2007, 05:18 PM
Congratulations C-17. Welcome on board.

I don't think it is any negative reflection on those that did not get hired since it appears many good people are not getting in. It might be a matter of a good candidate who just wasn't a good fit for Delta. Some folks who Delta did not hire have had wonderful careers at UPS, FedEx, SWA and others. But for those who are trying for Delta, and information you can share on the pitfalls to avoid would be appreciated by all.

Saab - those ASA pilots are trying like heck to get out of there and many have been working on their Delta plans for the last 7 years. Also consider that ASA's VP of Flight Operation is a Delta insider who used to be a Delta manager. There is a lot of communication and it is easy for Delta to get good information on ASA candidates. Success is when opportunity meets preparation and the ASA guys have been getting prepared long before Delta became the flavor of the month. Things will even out eventually.

I don't know if this means anything, but if Delta needs 30 every two weeks and they interview 60, (3*8*2)-no shows, the odds would seem 50/50, eh?

JoeyMeatballs
09-05-2007, 05:24 PM
Congratulations C-17. Welcome on board.

I don't think it is any negative reflection on those that did not get hired since it appears many good people are not getting in. It might be a matter of a good candidate who just wasn't a good fit for Delta. Some folks who Delta did not hire have had wonderful careers at UPS, FedEx, SWA and others. But for those who are trying for Delta, and information you can share on the pitfalls to avoid would be appreciated by all.

Saab - those ASA pilots are trying like heck to get out of there and many have been working on their Delta plans for the last 7 years. Also consider that ASA's VP of Flight Operation is a Delta insider who used to be a Delta manager. There is a lot of communication and it is easy for Delta to get good information on ASA candidates. Success is when opportunity meets preparation and the ASA guys have been getting prepared long before Delta became the flavor of the month. Things will even out eventually.



Thanks for the reply, yeah I dont think anything is wrong with that, seems like CAL likes a lot of XJT guys, all makes sense if ya ask me..................

dbtownley
09-05-2007, 07:15 PM
Yes.

Congrats, I will see you around the property...

STILL GROUNDED
09-05-2007, 09:26 PM
especially retired ones!

Yeah, but they are just not p**sed Yet!

Gretzky, I can see where that may of come off wrong but I mean no disrespect to anyone. My only real question is why would someone be confused that DAL was hiring Rj drivers? Seems like a pretty obvious choice, not that they should not hire Mil pilots, I am sure they are some of the best.

Anyhow, good luck to anyone moving up. I hope the companies come around and start treating people right.

Professor
09-06-2007, 07:22 AM
Congrats C17, great feeling eh? Hopefully we'll be in indoc together.

Still waiting for my cleared for training email.

Buddy of mine interviews on the 10th. AvKnowledge test still the same?

prof.

AHDRVR
09-06-2007, 08:31 AM
Great job C17! It's good to have another Barney driver on the property. Are you currently drilling anywhere?

acl65pilot
09-06-2007, 06:12 PM
They are shooting for 50 % for the hiring. That has been their goal since they started interviewing in late Jan. They have just been luckier than initially planned. It looks like it is finally starting to smooth out.

C-17 Driver
09-06-2007, 06:49 PM
Great job C17! It's good to have another Barney driver on the property. Are you currently drilling anywhere?

I'm at Dover in the 326th Airlift Squadron...great group of guys!

Z_Pilot
09-10-2007, 03:43 PM
Yes. The other guy who was hired was ASA (I think..don't quote me on that).

I honestly don't know what the secret code is. The cog test was a ball buster and I thought for sure I tanked it. The gouge covered approx 40%-50% of the technical test, but the rest of the questions were very new to me. The whole group seemed like a great group of guys. Out of respect for those that did not get hired, I will refrain from posting whether or not it was the interview, testing, or both as to being the reason for not getting hired.

Just curious, do you think it is because they have a new bank of questions in the tech interview?

Thanks

71Kilo
09-10-2007, 03:54 PM
Whats up C-17, you didn't tell them about my interview class the next day. 7 showed, 4 in 3 out. The four were 2 AF heavy and 2 civ (1 ASA and 1 corp). The 3 out were 2 AF heavy and 1 civ (Aliegent Air). The civ wore a suit that would make a donkey fall over laughing. It came right off the rack in Borat's closet. Made of wool, two sizes too small, and an ugly orange tie. What was he thinking? He busted the interview of course. The two mil guys: one for getting confrontational during the interview and the other for taking his lollygaging time during the cog test. The cog test was easy!... Only if you go to AIR, Inc. and get the gouge!! That's the only reason I passed it. The gouge is all out there. Do you want the job or not? Do what it takes. See you in class Shaggy and I'm not doing you testing like in Del Hell.

GuardDawg14
09-10-2007, 04:07 PM
[quote=acl65pilot;226739]They are shooting for 50 % for the hiring. That has been their goal since they started interviewing in late Jan. They have just been luckier than initially planned. It looks like it is finally starting to smooth out.[/quote

New to this thread...so you're saying they want to hire 50% of the people that interview?

Professor
09-10-2007, 04:19 PM
Not to put words into acl's mouth...but what the hey...

Having gone through the process personally I can tell you that the 50% number is probably what they expect to yield from each class. The interview system is relatively objective (results may vary with how the interview is perceived by the interviewee).

If you take the average day of interview groups I think they probably yield slightly below 50% in the last few weeks. But just barely below the 50/50 mark. 3 of 7, 4 of 8, 4 of 7 hired seems to be fairly typical.

They day I interviewed was 1/7 and the following week had 2/8. But I know for a fact (from the hiring department themselves) my day was an extreme outlier statistically.

prof.

C-17driver
09-10-2007, 06:29 PM
Whats up C-17, you didn't tell them about my interview class the next day. 7 showed, 4 in 3 out. The four were 2 AF heavy and 2 civ (1 ASA and 1 corp). The 3 out were 2 AF heavy and 1 civ (Aliegent Air). The civ wore a suit that would make a donkey fall over laughing. It came right off the rack in Borat's closet. Made of wool, two sizes too small, and an ugly orange tie. What was he thinking? He busted the interview of course. The two mil guys: one for getting confrontational during the interview and the other for taking his lollygaging time during the cog test. The cog test was easy!... Only if you go to AIR, Inc. and get the gouge!! That's the only reason I passed it. The gouge is all out there. Do you want the job or not? Do what it takes. See you in class Shaggy and I'm not doing you testing like in Del Hell.


That's pretty harsh! You must be an ART!:D

HoursHore
09-10-2007, 06:46 PM
71 kilo

Congrats Man.

You have escaped.

71Kilo
09-10-2007, 07:00 PM
71 kilo

Congrats Man.

You have escaped.


Thanks ER. Keep it on the down low as I haven't told the leadership until I get a class date. I still appreciate the help at your company though. I heard you are looking at Columbus? GO! Things are changing at the unit rapidly, and not for the good. I'm looking around as well. See ya this weekend!

71Kilo
09-10-2007, 07:04 PM
That's pretty harsh! You must be an ART!:D

I figured you would have commented on my test taking skills. You know about them right? ARTs rule and suck all at the same time!

Cuddy
09-13-2007, 05:33 PM
Not to put words into acl's mouth...but what the hey...

Having gone through the process personally I can tell you that the 50% number is probably what they expect to yield from each class. The interview system is relatively objective (results may vary with how the interview is perceived by the interviewee).

If you take the average day of interview groups I think they probably yield slightly below 50% in the last few weeks. But just barely below the 50/50 mark. 3 of 7, 4 of 8, 4 of 7 hired seems to be fairly typical.

They day I interviewed was 1/7 and the following week had 2/8. But I know for a fact (from the hiring department themselves) my day was an extreme outlier statistically.

prof.


FYI, my interview date was 7 for 7. Keep in mind, they want to hire you - it is a waste of money to bring someone out and take up everyone's time, only to then send them home!

Razor
10-06-2007, 06:53 PM
While we're at it on the gouge, will somebody check my math here? If you're doing 0.85M, how far can you slow before you have to tell ATC? I say 0.81M but most of the gouge I've seen says 0.83M. Here's my reasoning: You have to report a change of 10 kts or 5%, whichever is greater; 0.85M = 510 KTAS; 5% of 510 is about 25 kts; 510 - 25 = 485 KTAS = about 0.81M. Did I do that right or am I losing it? Somebody offer me some insight please.

Thanks,

Moose

Never got a reply to this one but it seems pretty clear from AIM 5-5-9, "Advise ATC any time cruising airspeed varies plus or minus 5 percent or 10 knots, whichever is greater, from that given in the flight plan."

FlyingViking
10-06-2007, 08:49 PM
Never got a reply to this one but it seems pretty clear from AIM 5-5-9, "Advise ATC any time cruising airspeed varies plus or minus 5 percent or 10 knots, whichever is greater, from that given in the flight plan."

Actually; AIM 4-4-11 states: Expected to maintain within +/- 0.02 Mach.

Razor
10-06-2007, 09:04 PM
Actually; AIM 4-4-11 states: Expected to maintain within +/- 0.02 Mach.

Yes, it does, but that is in reference to a speed assigned by ATC. "ATC will issue speed adjustments to pilots of radar-controlled aircraft to achieve or maintain required or desired spacing... Pilots complying with speed adjustments are expected to maintain a speed within plus or minus 10 knots or 0.02 Mach number of the specified speed."

I guess it would depend on how the question is asked then. This is from the WFFF gouge, "You are flying at 0.86 Mach, and you elect to slow down for operational purposes. Below what airspeed do you have to advise ATC? 0.85, 0.84, 0.83, 0.82. Answer: 0.84 ( Equivalent to 10kts.)

So do you think they are looking for the .02 Mach/10kts or the 5%/10kts as the answer?

FlyingViking
10-06-2007, 09:11 PM
So do you think they are looking for the .02 Mach/10kts or the 5%/10kts as the answer?

I believe the answer is M0.84, or M0.02 slower, however, I just got that out of the AIM and it was the only place I could find anything about a M0.02 speed reduction. The 10kts/5% idea has to many variables in it as there is no given GS, or Temp. I might be wrong though, this is just my interpretation...

CALPilotToo
10-06-2007, 09:48 PM
I understand, put what about all the other points I made. Still no Scabs at Delta.

Your points add up to someone that simply doesn't know how to truly understand the industry. Reagardless your comments are pointless and uncalled for and show an elitist attitude that if Delta had discovered in the interview you probably would not be a Delta new hire. In any event, I hope you enjoy and have a wonderful career at Delta. And I must say I am glad you won't ever fly with this pilot at CAL. BTW, not a scab and won't ever be.

CALPilotToo
10-06-2007, 09:56 PM
There are tons of guys that could have gone staright from Express to CAL b/c of the old flow through.

You do not even know what you are talking about. 41 pilots did not accept the flo-thru provisions and were fenced. Later many decided to stay at CALX who were not flo thru pilots but in the pref interview group and did not want to leave and go to first year pay.

I know one in particular who decided to stay at CALX because he simply wanted to wait for SWA. He got his interview at SWA and didn't get it. Several of those who left for CAL when he decided not to go to CAL just held CA after 2 years. Guess what his comment was to me the other day? BTW, I did offer to recommend him for a job at CAL.

I'd bet you were one of those either passed over by CAL or something along those lines. Am I right or wrong? What's your background prior to Delta? I'd bet prior CALX that was passed over by CAL.

Lifeisgood
10-07-2007, 05:51 AM
You say tons of guys, out the 1500 guys they have hired in the past 2.5 yrs 20-30 have left. I don't call that tons.

140 as of today. Info from DL.

RockyBoy
10-07-2007, 07:09 AM
You do not even know what you are talking about. 41 pilots did not accept the flo-thru provisions and were fenced. Later many decided to stay at CALX who were not flo thru pilots but in the pref interview group and did not want to leave and go to first year pay.

I know one in particular who decided to stay at CALX because he simply wanted to wait for SWA. He got his interview at SWA and didn't get it. Several of those who left for CAL when he decided not to go to CAL just held CA after 2 years. Guess what his comment was to me the other day? BTW, I did offer to recommend him for a job at CAL.

I'd bet you were one of those either passed over by CAL or something along those lines. Am I right or wrong? What's your background prior to Delta? I'd bet prior CALX that was passed over by CAL.

CAL is a good place to be just like DAL is a good place to be. Let's not start fighting about which place is better here. I was an old XJT guy who never got a call from CAL. Never put much effort into it because I didn't want to live in a CAL base and I didn't want to commute. DAL has a base where I grew up and I was lucky to get the job. I'm now very happy that CAL never called because I probably would not leave CAL had I went. If I would have grown up in Houston then CAL would be the best airline out there. Everyone makes career decisions based on personal factors and that shouldn't cause us to fight over who works for the best airline. If you have a job at CAL or DAL you are a very lucky individual.

MoonShot
01-16-2008, 10:06 AM
Yes, it does, but that is in reference to a speed assigned by ATC. "ATC will issue speed adjustments to pilots of radar-controlled aircraft to achieve or maintain required or desired spacing... Pilots complying with speed adjustments are expected to maintain a speed within plus or minus 10 knots or 0.02 Mach number of the specified speed."

I guess it would depend on how the question is asked then. This is from the WFFF gouge, "You are flying at 0.86 Mach, and you elect to slow down for operational purposes. Below what airspeed do you have to advise ATC? 0.85, 0.84, 0.83, 0.82. Answer: 0.84 ( Equivalent to 10kts.)

So do you think they are looking for the .02 Mach/10kts or the 5%/10kts as the answer?

So, what are guys going with? I get .82 by the 5% rule (.8166), but I want to play the game if .84 is correct on the test. Anyone know for sure?