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Shootinstr8
08-30-2007, 01:30 PM
Serious question...How long would it take for each legacy and regional carrier to replace 75% or more of their pilots if they resigned in mass. I know the railway labor act prevents strikes and CHAOS without mediation, but what if the unions came in with boxes full of letters of resignation that will be executed if wages and work rules are not moved forward? I am new to this game but slavery ended over 140 years ago.


FlyerJosh
08-30-2007, 01:41 PM
Probably a long time since I don't imagine that they would be apt to hire anybody that resigned as part of such a ploy....

Either way, it won't ever happen.

flyguy1
08-30-2007, 02:08 PM
I am new to this game but slavery ended over 140 years ago.[/quote]


It's a liitle, no a huge stretch to compare our situation as airline pilots and slavery. We have a choice, slaves do not.


Shootinstr8
08-30-2007, 02:36 PM
I am new to this game but slavery ended over 140 years ago.


It's a liitle, no a huge stretch to compare our situation as airline pilots and slavery. We have a choice, slaves do not.[/quote]


Ok before this goes nuts...I'm not comparing the current pilot wage issue with slavery. What I am saying is that the RLA denies unions from using their leverage to bargain in good faith for better living conditions and wages. Hell janitors at General Motors earn more than first year FO's anywhere...what did they pay to acquire their skills?

jonnyjetprop
08-30-2007, 02:41 PM
Mine would be out of business long before they could train the scabs.

flaps 9
08-30-2007, 04:46 PM
Hell janitors at General Motors earn more than first year FO's anywhere...

Maybe at a Regional, not at a Major

Shootinstr8
08-30-2007, 05:19 PM
Maybe at a Regional, not at a Major

janitor at GM makes 50K...SWA First yr FO makes MMG $49,286 Congrats on the job...but holy shi'ite:)

HercDriver130
08-30-2007, 05:46 PM
Well then...go be a janitor.

Eric Stratton
08-30-2007, 07:49 PM
Well then...go be a janitor.

that's not the point but I'm sure you know that.

I'm curious if that is your take on the situation, why are you comfortable with the current starting pay at most airlines...

JoeyMeatballs
08-30-2007, 08:26 PM
Maybe at a Regional, not at a Major

Apparently you haven taken a look at CAL's first year, hell even 2nd year pay scale..............

chazbird
08-30-2007, 08:40 PM
Lately I make it a casual project of mine to ask people, when they find out I'm a pilot, what they think a new first year pilot makes - typically prefacing it with "you know, flying one of those smaller jets". Its usually, "oh, 65,000". Today my bank teller said: "100,000?" When they are duly informed these people are not smirking like pilots deserve low wages but instead are pretty shocked. Just like the weather adage weather everyone agrees something is seriously wrong but no one is doing anything about it. Things like contracts being 2-5 years past due is just pathetic. I know Americans are supposed to be strong willed and all that good 'ol stuff but European (or Australian) labor, in general, doesn't take it sitting down. I applaud when I see Argentinians taking to the street to try and fix economic injustice. It may or may not be very effective but at least they are doing something.

I too have thought of a single day when a huge percentage of US flights didn't fly - if passengers flying for medical reasons weren't put out - I'd be all for it. By and large the media would be all over it of course, saying the pilots who make 130,000 a year are sitting at home because they can't "work" more than a 100 hours a month, which of course would cause seething resentment. ("Why that's $108 an hour!") One of the great tragedies is how terrible nearly all media in this country have become. A second tragedy is how poorly the pilot unions represent pilots as a whole, and how poorly the pilot unions represent pilots to the general populace so they won't believe pilots live the life of Riley. (or some more modern term, slackers?). A less slacker media and a less slacker union would begin to make pilots economic woes a lot easier to resolve.

sigep_nm
08-30-2007, 08:45 PM
All this energy wasted on a forum board. How many of you are actually active in your union, and by active I dont mean just paying your shop fees. How many have actually met any of their union reps (indoc doesnt count). If you really want to make a difference get active in the process and dont just assume that your union is working to its full potential. Lets face it, at the regional level people are leaving and will be leaving fast, and with that goes union experience. Learn the process, and learn how to change the process for the better. Pounding a keyboard after a late night of flying does nothing to foster change. Find what YOU think is unacceptable about your current contract, find a viable and resonable alternative to the current terms and present it in a professional manner to your union rep, and dont accept no as answer. Lets face it, its a business, and we wont get everything that we want from our respective companies, but if we can find things that we will not settle for (pay, etc) then at least we can fight like hell for those. I would venture to say that most new regional FO's dont know much about their contract, so take the time to read and learn it, it will only make you a stronger asset for your union, and your fellow pilot group. Maybe I dont know what the hell I am talking about, but thats my two cents

flaps 9
08-30-2007, 09:12 PM
Apparently you haven taken a look at CAL's first year, hell even 2nd year pay scale..............

So true!!!!!!!!!

XJPILOT1
08-30-2007, 09:43 PM
All this energy wasted on a forum board. How many of you are actually active in your union, and by active I dont mean just paying your shop fees. How many have actually met any of their union reps (indoc doesnt count). If you really want to make a difference get active in the process and dont just assume that your union is working to its full potential. Lets face it, at the regional level people are leaving and will be leaving fast, and with that goes union experience. Learn the process, and learn how to change the process for the better. Pounding a keyboard after a late night of flying does nothing to foster change. Find what YOU think is unacceptable about your current contract, find a viable and resonable alternative to the current terms and present it in a professional manner to your union rep, and dont accept no as answer. Lets face it, its a business, and we wont get everything that we want from our respective companies, but if we can find things that we will not settle for (pay, etc) then at least we can fight like hell for those. I would venture to say that most new regional FO's dont know much about their contract, so take the time to read and learn it, it will only make you a stronger asset for your union, and your fellow pilot group. Maybe I dont know what the hell I am talking about, but thats my two cents


Fight like hell? If ALPA pulled the contract strings equally (major, Regionals) then we can begin the fight. Regionals compete for contracts for the majors but some regionals have loose work rules or pay scales and those regionals win the flying contract. This whipsaw effect goes in cycles. Major pilots screaming at the regional pilots to "hang tough" and "grow some". Easy if you're making $113 + an hour. Seems the guys at the top forget about the struggle on the bottom. The lack of resources a 20 something new hire has over a veteran Jet Jock. If our company (NWA) throws us some E175 or E195 down the line should we say no thanks, that's not for us. I doubt any and all NWA guys would have done the same when they were bottom feeders. How quickly we forget.

I enjoy doing what I do so I'm not going to ruin it for me or my family. When the day comes when it's time to move the pay and work rules up a notch I'll be pushing hard. But, cut out the rhetoric and slave labor comparisons. It's getting old...fast!!

sigep_nm
08-31-2007, 09:41 PM
Fight like hell? If ALPA pulled the contract strings equally (major, Regionals) then we can begin the fight. Regionals compete for contracts for the majors but some regionals have loose work rules or pay scales and those regionals win the flying contract. This whipsaw effect goes in cycles. Major pilots screaming at the regional pilots to "hang tough" and "grow some". Easy if you're making $113 + an hour. Seems the guys at the top forget about the struggle on the bottom. The lack of resources a 20 something new hire has over a veteran Jet Jock. If our company (NWA) throws us some E175 or E195 down the line should we say no thanks, that's not for us. I doubt any and all NWA guys would have done the same when they were bottom feeders. How quickly we forget.

I enjoy doing what I do so I'm not going to ruin it for me or my family. When the day comes when it's time to move the pay and work rules up a notch I'll be pushing hard. But, cut out the rhetoric and slave labor comparisons. It's getting old...fast!!


Never once did I state something about rhetoric or slave labor. I dont feel we work for slave labor, but I also dont feel like 'fighting like hell' involves moaning and complaining on a message board. WE do however need to figure out what it is that WE want, and no it cant be everything. My point is to find what you are willing to work for, and what you are willing to sacrifice. The majors have nothing to do with our situation and I will never blame a major for what is going on at the regional level. By the way ALPA is here to represent you and your specific pilot group, that is why you pay your union dues. Will you really push hard? Just in case you didnt notice our contract negotiations can start less than a year from now. Better start thinking about how hard you are going to push.

FliFast
08-31-2007, 09:54 PM
I don't make as much as a janitor during my first year at UPS. But I knew this before I came to work here and made a plan to get thru the first year...this male dancer gig at night is killing me...only a few more months.

Oldfreightdawg
08-31-2007, 09:58 PM
Serious question...How long would it take for each legacy and regional carrier to replace 75% or more of their pilots if they resigned in mass. I know the railway labor act prevents strikes and CHAOS without mediation, but what if the unions came in with boxes full of letters of resignation that will be executed if wages and work rules are not moved forward? I am new to this game but slavery ended over 140 years ago.

I assuming this is a rhetorical question? Most legacies, or any carrier would perish before they could replace that many pilots. On the other hand, such an effort to resign en mass would require an organized effort, presumably on the part of the union. Such an effort under the RLA is a violation of status quo, and therefore illegal. Might as well wildcat strike, it would end with the same results.

captjns
09-01-2007, 05:23 AM
Most airlines Flight Operations Training Manuals’ contain reduced training curricula. Pilots who have flown the same type aircraft, as they will with the new carrier, within the preceding 24 calendar months qualify for such training.

The period from Basic Indoctrination to the PC can run as low as 2 weeks…. the 25 hour line training requirement can be by 1 hour for every landing, thus another week. Classroom is not the problem… its simulator, aircraft line training and checking do to lack of manpower and also the FAA observation ride for captains as may be required by some POIs. Some of the higher time airmen would probably be trained as captains and check airmen right out of the box which would help out with the bottleneck.

Also, depending on how hands-on the airlines’ POI is, they may wish to review the resumes of those potential airmen chosen for the reduced training to ensure quality control.

Thedude
09-01-2007, 09:12 AM
Seems the guys at the top forget about the struggle on the bottom.


That is because when most of the senior guys were hired, the commuters didn't really exist. I have flown with more than one Delta early outter that never really had to struggle and they have only known good times, boy did they have a shock when they started flying at the supplementals.

Oldfreightdawg
09-01-2007, 12:53 PM
That is because when most of the senior guys were hired, the commuters didn't really exist. I have flown with more than one Delta early outter that never really had to struggle and they have only known good times, boy did they have a shock when they started flying at the supplementals.

Well maybe , maybe not. You're right about regionals not being around. So for us civilian guys there was flight instruction or hauling canceled checks in a 210 without heat. If I could have flown a jet right out of college with only 500TT, it would have been great. Seems like a pretty good gig to me.

I think the senior guys understand just fine, it's the reason for scope clauses.

flightest
09-01-2007, 01:40 PM
Bottomline..........the RLA sucks.

FT

Slice
09-01-2007, 01:48 PM
Well maybe , maybe not. You're right about regionals not being around. So for us civilian guys there was flight instruction or hauling canceled checks in a 210 without heat. If I could have flown a jet right out of college with only 500TT, it would have been great. Seems like a pretty good gig to me.

I think the senior guys understand just fine, it's the reason for scope clauses.

The only reliable Scope I know is the mouthwash.:mad:

fireman0174
09-02-2007, 04:20 AM
Bottomline..........the RLA sucks.

FT

That's what Frank Lorenzo said.

Skyone
09-02-2007, 05:38 AM
First year pay rates just about everywhere are terrible. Always have been. Why? Because the pilots on the property won't do anything about them. They feel, "hey I did it, so can you". So the companies get cheap labor for a year. It was one thing before records, background checks, training etc. could be quantified, back in the 60s. But now, this whole on probation thing and crap wages is a slap in the face of those coming in. UPS has one of the best paying contracts, but $33/hr starting pay........c'mon. Second on up is ok, but what's the deal with year one? That's almost what it was back in the 80s for year one at the legacies. And it's not just UPS. :mad:

Oh and BTW, you don't need 75% of the pilots resigning. What you need is a concentrated SOS (suspension of service). But in today's enviornment, there doesn't seem to be any overriding issues to have one. And sympathy from the public.....Your bank teller may have been aghast at your low wages, but if she can't get to the other coast over Labor Day for $49 because of some sick out or SOS or whatever, she won't give a rat's a** if you make 10K or 100k a year. She has a god given right to cheap fares and direct service from her small community to all large cities.

Skyone
09-02-2007, 05:45 AM
That's what Frank Lorenzo said.

C'mon Firerman, many of these young pups don't even know who Frank Lorenzo or his minions left over in the industry are/were.

tomgoodman
09-02-2007, 06:22 AM
C'mon Firerman, many of these young pups don't even know who Frank Lorenzo or his minions left over in the industry are/were.

But the young CEOs running airlines today know Lorenzo quite well, even if they never worked for him. As he plundered the industry, they may have said "Oh, how awful", but took copious notes.

emsgoof
09-02-2007, 06:24 AM
Nope, didn't know about him... just read up on him though.
Charming guy.. :rolleyes:

fireman0174
09-02-2007, 06:55 AM
C'mon Firerman, many of these young pups don't even know who Frank Lorenzo or his minions left over in the industry are/were.

While not infallible, there is quite a bit of truth to the following:

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." --George Santayana

For example, Errett Lobban Cord, also known as E. L. Cord, was by many considered an early Frank Lorenzo. I wonder how many have heard of Cord, yet his business methods were just a precursor of Lorenzo’s?

Oldfreightdawg
09-02-2007, 07:55 AM
The only reliable Scope I know is the mouthwash.:mad:

Unfortunately you're right. It's interesting to note however, the one airline with the strongest scope language is the most profitable with some of the highest paid pilots. And they don't own a single regional jet. Can you guess which one it is?:D

Oldfreightdawg
09-02-2007, 08:04 AM
While not infallible, there is quite a bit of truth to the following:

"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it." --George Santayana

For example, Errett Lobban Cord, also known as E. L. Cord, was by many considered an early Frank Lorenzo. I wonder how many have heard of Cord, yet his business methods were just a precursor of Lorenzo’s?

Thank you fireman. This is exactly what I've been preaching in other threads. Whether you're an ALPA member or not, 'Flying the Line" parts one and two should be required reading for all pilots. For those who are asking: Flying the Line is the history of ALPA and airline pilots in general.

XJPILOT1
09-02-2007, 08:14 AM
Never once did I state something about rhetoric or slave labor. I dont feel we work for slave labor, but I also dont feel like 'fighting like hell' involves moaning and complaining on a message board. WE do however need to figure out what it is that WE want, and no it cant be everything. My point is to find what you are willing to work for, and what you are willing to sacrifice. The majors have nothing to do with our situation and I will never blame a major for what is going on at the regional level. By the way ALPA is here to represent you and your specific pilot group, that is why you pay your union dues. Will you really push hard? Just in case you didnt notice our contract negotiations can start less than a year from now. Better start thinking about how hard you are going to push.


I hope you figured this out three months ago when you were hired.

fireman0174
09-02-2007, 09:34 AM
Whether you're an ALPA member or not, 'Flying the Line" parts one and two should be required reading for all pilots. For those who are asking: Flying the Line is the history of ALPA and airline pilots in general.
I totally agree with you. Those books should be considered required reading for any existing or aspiring airline pilot.

Thedude
09-02-2007, 05:39 PM
I think the senior guys understand just fine, it's the reason for scope clauses.

Umm no, that answer is contradictory. The current senior guys have pretty much sold scope down the river with all of the RJs. Good luck on trying to get that one back in shape. Remember back when NWA MEC was refered to as pit vipers. 'Cause they would strike at anything....looks like those guys are long gone.



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