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N2rotation
09-04-2007, 08:42 AM
Great job on the full page ad in USA Today 9/4 Money section page 3B. I think it sends a good message.

Does anybody have a link?

ALPA needs to do more of this. Weekly. Every carrier in negotiations should frequent USA Today.


threegreen
09-04-2007, 11:00 AM
great read. i agree there needs to be more adds like that

HSLD
09-04-2007, 11:39 AM
Does anybody have a link?


Try this: https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=39901


travelJunky
09-04-2007, 11:56 AM
I'm sure the flying public could care less and those who read the Money section of USA today are probably wondering how they can get into the profitable line of airline management if it is that easy according to the ALPA advertisement.

the King
09-04-2007, 12:58 PM
It seems that the way to get into the ailine management circle is to be a manager at company, then go to an airline (using your connections) and then fail miserably. At this point you now have the experience required to run an airline.:rolleyes: It seems that executive compensation is rapidly becoming a topic in many industries besides ours. I hope we can find a way to pay everyone fairly instead of just a few, especially considering the state of some of our industries.

HSLD
09-04-2007, 01:04 PM
I'm sure the flying public could care less


Agreed, I think there are better ways to spend $400,000 of member dues.

Sideshow Bob
09-04-2007, 01:17 PM
Agreed, I think there are better ways to spend $400,000 of member dues.

It would appear that it is more frustration based than anything. During contract negotiations the IPA (UPS) bought full page ads about how UPS was outsourcing flying to China Air (PVG-BNA for Dell via UPS Logistics). Nobody gave a rats ass, as they likely figured their Dell was chaper because of it.

The only way to get Joe Six Pack Pudknocker's attention is to insinuate that they are being endangered by something or another. Or for NOBODY to show up for work for two straight days....

That is starting to sound pretty good to me...

seaav8tor
09-04-2007, 02:37 PM
During indoc a flight ops admin person explained with the help of an overhead projector how the pilot pay was calculated. She said don't worry if you do not understand this. Most pilots here do not understand how they get paid. 12 years later I can validate her claim.

Point is this: (I know you all know this) We put in way more than 1 hour for 1 hour of pay. This makes the hourly wage look astronomical to Joe SixPac.

Since most pilots don't understand how they are paid, there is no way Joe SixPac will understand it. Thus the hourly pay, and pay hours are used as a tool by management to sway public perception against the crews.

Not until the gate keepers control the number of pilots will we see any real long term gains in this career. With MPL on the front and age 65 on the back, it appears any hope of controlling pilot "supply" is just a pipe dream.

The public will never support pilot pay gains. The ad was a waste of money.

This is why I'm quitting flying to become a pro football player. I heard they only work 2 hours each week and make Boo-Koo bucks per hour!:D

Spartan07
09-04-2007, 03:17 PM
This is why I'm quitting flying to become a pro football player. I heard they only work 2 hours each week and make Boo-Koo bucks per hour!:D

Quite frankly the best analogy of pilot pay I have ever seen... Too bad professional athletes get the stigma of being overpaid too... But then again, with the exception of Football, MMA, and Hockey I think they are but I digress...

cbire880
09-04-2007, 03:31 PM
It seems that executive compensation is rapidly becoming a topic in many industries besides ours.

Executive compensation is becoming a national issue. Unless we see a market crash (which will hurt the excutives a lot since a good bit of their wealth is tied up in the market), there will be more attention towards why the working class wage has decreased in real dollars while executive wages have grown exponentially. The fundamental problem was stated above. Being an executive is an exclusive club. The only requirement is to be a member of that club. It doesn't matter if you failed miserably at your last job. Once you are an executive, you are valued. As such, the rest of the club works very hard to keep that pay growing so they can say "well such and such at company B makes x amount, why won't you pay me that much?"

Oldfreightdawg
09-04-2007, 05:26 PM
During indoc a flight ops admin person explained with the help of an overhead projector how the pilot pay was calculated. She said don't worry if you do not understand this. Most pilots here do not understand how they get paid. 12 years later I can validate her claim.

Point is this: (I know you all know this) We put in way more than 1 hour for 1 hour of pay. This makes the hourly wage look astronomical to Joe SixPac.

Since most pilots don't understand how they are paid, there is no way Joe SixPac will understand it. Thus the hourly pay, and pay hours are used as a tool by management to sway public perception against the crews.

Not until the gate keepers control the number of pilots will we see any real long term gains in this career. With MPL on the front and age 65 on the back, it appears any hope of controlling pilot "supply" is just a pipe dream.

The public will never support pilot pay gains. The ad was a waste of money.

This is why I'm quitting flying to become a pro football player. I heard they only work 2 hours each week and make Boo-Koo bucks per hour!:D

Good point. But remember this point you made in another thread?

Industry belief: There is not now nor will there ever be a shortage of people willing to work as pilots at any wage.

True fact. Nor will there ever be a shortage of people willing to be Professional Ball players, or Firefighters or CEOs at any wage. The question is this: Will the industry be able to attract and retain the level of competence required at any wage? The answer is no. At the current Federal minimum wage you would not be able to consistently find competent Professional Ball players, Firefighters, CEOs or Airline pilots.

I think you're contradicting yourself a little. I think your first analogy is more correct, there will never be a shortage of anybody willing to do anything at any wage. CEO's and their senior management teams extract obscene pay from a power base of networks and lobbying efforts, not because some non-bias compensation committee deemed it appropriate. They take their pay with force and thumb their noses at us and the public. Deep down inside the American psychic, the public actually accepts this behavior. CEO's have developed, over time, a careful public campaign to assuage public scorn of their outrageous salaries. There are no shortages of qualified CEO's, but there are "gate keepers" that restrict entry.

Just like there will be no shortages of qualified pilots, we as pilots must gain control of our own gate. We do this the same way CEO's do. The battlefield extends well beyond the negotiating table. It resides in Washington as well as in the public eye. Which means ALPA is doing the right thing. I don't necessarily agree with the "look at us poor victim workers" message. But winning over the hearts and minds of the public is essential to winning the battle. JMHO

edznaz
09-04-2007, 05:59 PM
[True fact. Nor will there ever be a shortage of people willing to be Professional Ball players, or Firefighters or CEOs at any wage.

Great. The only other thing I'm any good at is running into burning buildings. Guess I'm all in. Interview next week.

Z

seaav8tor
09-04-2007, 07:30 PM
[True fact. Nor will there ever be a shortage of people willing to be Professional Ball players, or Firefighters or CEOs at any wage.

Great. The only other thing I'm any good at is running into burning buildings. Guess I'm all in. Interview next week.

Z

Firefighters in my area receive X$/hour for each hour on duty at the firehouse. Normally 24 hour duty shift. (TAFB in pilot speak)

Imagine if Firefighters were only paid from block out to block in on actual calls and the hourly rate was adjusted up so the overall pay remained the same.

Then when the Firefighters were up for a pay raise, the city, county etc, claimed Firefighters at station 3 receive an average pay of $250.00/hour and only work 5 hours per week!

Before the flames start I'm not suggesting this. I'm just pointing out how public perception can be distorted, as it has been in the case of pilots.

Now consider if pilots were paid hourly rate based on TAFB (just like our friends at the firehouse); and the rate was reduce so the overall pay remained the same. Now what would they think if they were told a Jet FO starting out made $ 7.00/ hour (Pinnacle) and the pilots were trying to get a pay raise to attract a higher level of experience? (higher than 200 hrs TT)

seaav8tor
09-04-2007, 07:42 PM
Good point. But remember this point you made in another thread?

I think you're contradicting yourself a little.
JMHO

I agree with you but I'm not sure where the contradiction lies?

We could, but we choose not control the "supply" and that means there will never be a shortage.

The "Gate Keepers" leave the gate wide open.

Koolaidman
09-04-2007, 11:51 PM
I keep seeing on tv how there is this "war on the middle class" on whatever news station it is. I have to change the channel because it is so frustrating to watch knowing that there is very little that I can do about it. They keep saying how production is up, but wages are down and more are without healthcare. What the @#*! is going on in Washington? Nationwide, wages and QOL need to improve. However, it seems as if people just go to work and don't realize what is going on. I guess people enjoy the abuse the upper management is putting on them? Because I certainly don't see too many others upset with current situation in the American work force.

If ALPA did more stuff like this article, I may be more inclined to bring them on at SkyWest. However, just because they put an ad in a newspaper doesn't mean Tilton is going to give them a raise.

captjns
09-05-2007, 01:01 AM
I can’t see the piece in USA to drive the flying public to petition Congress to establish a minimum wage along with pay increases, benefits for pilots. After all, what percentage of the flying public earns a wage equal to pilots? The flying public is interested in cheap fares and frequent flyer mile upgrades. Besides since USA Today is a free read, it’s the pilots that usually that read USA on those long legs to pass the time away.

Now… you want to get the attention of the flying public, board of directors and share holders??? Every member of ALPA show unity and call in sick for a day or two.

7576United
09-05-2007, 04:48 AM
This ad wasn't a plea for help from joe sixpack, this ad was designed to help joe sixpack understand where we're coming from when the fight to regain our lost wages turns really ugly.

Ironically, this 87 thousand dollar ad originally had facts and figures that included tilton's pay package....all public information...but the U.S. Today wouldn't allow it.

Consider one thing before you go blasting the ad: The ceo's of this country have hand picked compensation committees that decide their salaries, who do you have on your side?

chitownpilot
09-05-2007, 05:22 AM
While am not for the organization of my fellow SkyWest pilots by ALPA (please don't go into it here), I do agree with ALPA 100% here on this ad. Upper management has got to start giving a damn about the employees. It is the only way to bring United back to the airline it once was. At SkyWest, they told us "employees first"....happy employees = happy customers. And you know what, it shows on many of the flights I fly as a CRJ F/O out of ORD.

Upper management at UAL has to get a clue, or get out.

myoface
09-05-2007, 07:36 AM
skywest has an employees first attitude? not according to my buddies over there.

dba74
09-05-2007, 08:08 AM
....or at ASA

RedeyeAV8r
09-05-2007, 08:28 AM
Now… you want to get the attention of the flying public, board of directors and share holders??? Every member of ALPA show unity and call in sick for a day or two.

That my friend would be illegal. Thank our brethern from AMR several years ago. That little rucous and the Case law history steming from it, changed all our ability and strategy to fight for improvements under the RLA forever.

ewrbasedpilot
09-05-2007, 08:36 AM
While am not for the organization of my fellow SkyWest pilots by ALPA (please don't go into it here), I do agree with ALPA 100% here on this ad. Upper management has got to start giving a damn about the employees. It is the only way to bring United back to the airline it once was. At SkyWest, they told us "employees first"....happy employees = happy customers. And you know what, it shows on many of the flights I fly as a CRJ F/O out of ORD.

Upper management at UAL has to get a clue, or get out.

God forbid you'd have some job protection with a union.....................
Are you a newhire? :confused:

mike734
09-05-2007, 09:05 AM
The public won't care until they miss their vacation connection, wedding, meeting, reunion, etc. We need the right to strike in a reasonable time frame. We need to amend the RLA!

skywatch
09-05-2007, 10:00 AM
Point is this: (I know you all know this) We put in way more than 1 hour for 1 hour of pay. This makes the hourly wage look astronomical to Joe SixPac...This is why I'm quitting flying to become a pro football player. I heard they only work 2 hours each week and make Boo-Koo bucks per hour!:D

Hey, I have a question - I always see people complaining that they are not being paid for anything but flight time...has any union ever tried negotiating something else? A yearly salary? An hourly rate for duty time rather than flight time? I mean, otherwise, what the heck do you expect? You get what you negotiate, right?...

RedeyeAV8r
09-05-2007, 11:30 AM
Hey, I have a question - I always see people complaining that they are not being paid for anything but flight time...has any union ever tried negotiating something else? A yearly salary? An hourly rate for duty time rather than flight time? I mean, otherwise, what the heck do you expect? You get what you negotiate, right?...

You mean like being paid by "RIGS" verses simply by the Block hour?

Yes Sky watch it already has been done.

Trip Rig: pays the pilot a Minimum gaurantee for Time away from Base (TAFB)
1 hour of pay for every 4 hours awayis an example.
Duty RIG: Pays a Pilot a ratio for the time he/she is on duty 1 for 2.5 is an example. 1 hour of pay for every 2.5 hours on duty.
Min Rig: a gauranteed minimum pay for a given duty period. 2 hours minumum pay when a pilot checks in for duty is an example.

Most ALPA legacy carriers all had pretty good Rigs (otherwise known as "Work rules).
AMR and SWA and UPS have similar rules.
Unfortunatley Post 9/11 bankruptcy courts have done away with most if not all the good work rules.

fireman0174
09-05-2007, 02:21 PM
Most ALPA legacy carriers all had pretty good Rigs (otherwise known as "Work rules).
AMR and SWA and UPS have similar rules.
Unfortunatley Post 9/11 bankruptcy courts have done away with most if not all the good work rules.
Perhaps an explanation for the need to have duty rigs is worthwhile.

They came about because the airlines don’t care whether the pilots spent all of their time off away from home. They really could care less. To them, “increased productivity” was being able to get the maximum number of flight hours out of a pilot in a month, and if the pilot only got two or three actual days off at home, who cares?

Schedules could be fly an hour or two, layover, fly the next day for a short period, etc, etc. This results in very few actual days off at home.

So duty rigs came about to literally force the company to fly you, i.e., if the company is going to pay you while you are not actually flying, there is a clear financial incentive for them to get you on an airplane working.

An example was explained to me many years ago. This flight crew from Capital Airlines (merged in UAL in the early 1960s?) had a layover in MSP shortly after a time away from home duty rig was adopted. The company was just going to leave them in a hotel until they were needed. After several days (a week as I recall), because of the newly adopted time away from home duty rig, they “max’d out” on time for the month.

Bingo, they called crew scheduling (back then there was crew scheduling at most airports) and told them they were finished for the month and wanted to go home. The local crew schedulers had not been advised of the new duty rig and were quite willing to leave the crew at the hotel. Instead, they had to deadhead the crew home for a few days off AT HOME instead of the layover hotel.

Duty rigs “force” the company to work you since you are going to get paid anyway.

IMO, the most important duty rig is the time away from home duty rig.

Oldfreightdawg
09-05-2007, 06:00 PM
I agree with you but I'm not sure where the contradiction lies?

We could, but we choose not control the "supply" and that means there will never be a shortage.

The "Gate Keepers" leave the gate wide open.

Poor choice of words on my part. Never mind. My point is we need to do more than yell across the table at management. Support form the public and Washington is paramount in this regard. ALPA is not wasting dues money on public campaigns. What I don't like is the "feel sorry for me" angle in the USA Today ad.

IronWalt
09-05-2007, 06:09 PM
ALPA equals Morons leading Morons down the path to diminished returns. And I am happy to say that ALPA will be OFF THE PROPERTY at USAirways soon.

FEL1011
09-05-2007, 06:55 PM
I have worked with large union, in-house union and no union airlines. The biggest problem is that the airline unions in the US are "Labor" unions and not "Trade" unions. We are professionals practicing a trade or craft.

A trade union would mentor and train new members, promote its craft, self police, and protect the public image of said professionals. What is the American Medical Association? What about the State Bar Associations? American Dental Association? What about the so-called blue collar trade unions?

Maybe we lost our way?:o

flaps 9
09-05-2007, 08:06 PM
ALPA equals Morons leading Morons down the path to diminished returns. And I am happy to say that ALPA will be OFF THE PROPERTY at USAirways soon.

Sound of crying Whaaaaaaa, Whaaaaaaa, Whaaaaaa :D

captjns
09-06-2007, 01:44 AM
That my friend would be illegal. Thank our brethern from AMR several years ago. That little rucous and the Case law history steming from it, changed all our ability and strategy to fight for improvements under the RLA forever.

Its not illegal to succumb to the flu, however a strike accross the board is. IMHO total unity amongst the individual airlines' pilots as a whole to the industry that utilize ALPA's services is a must. The public's perception is that fares will increase because salaries for pilots will increase. Again, part of their perception is that tilton is one man but pilots are many thousands in numbers. Newpsper ads just don't have the impact on the public as perhaps they did in the past. To determine the inpact on the travelling public regarding the ad in USA today, an exit poll should be taken to see what their level of awareness is about pay and benefits in our industry and magement therein.

Ellen
09-08-2007, 08:38 PM
Agree, Full Page UAL ad won't do anything. Especially, with how the ad reads. TERRIBLE! If ALPA hired a recent college graduate with a degree in Marketing and Graphics, they would put out a better product. If it really is a six figure ad. . . it wasn't worth it.

Public doesn't care, unless it interrupts their travel plans or their American Idol night. Seems to me a more (back door) strategy would be to place small ads in every section telling the travelling public where to complain to the FAA.

If complaints build, I can guarantee more press will be given to the failing airline service, at which time more govt. attention will be given the problem. At this time, many pilot issues (besides pay) can be brought to the fore front.

TRAVELLING BY PLANE?

Fed up with Late and Cancelled Flights?

Tired of Poor Service?

Nervous about fatigued Pilots?

Angry about additional Fees and Surcharges

Let us know, by filing your airline complaint online. We want to help!
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/

Seems to me small ads like this might serve ALL employees in the airline business better than a Full Page UAL ad.

mike734
09-08-2007, 09:46 PM
ALPA equals Morons leading Morons down the path to diminished returns.
As ALPA likes to say, "ALPA is pilots working for pilots." So I guess your not far off.

Phantom Flyer
09-11-2007, 07:54 PM
I have worked with large union, in-house union and no union airlines. The biggest problem is that the airline unions in the US are "Labor" unions and not "Trade" unions. We are professionals practicing a trade or craft.

A trade union would mentor and train new members, promote its craft, self police, and protect the public image of said professionals. What is the American Medical Association? What about the State Bar Associations? American Dental Association? What about the so-called blue collar trade unions?

Maybe we lost our way?:o

Well stated, FEL1011. Your post is spot on and while we may have lost our way, perhaps Pogo said it best, "We have met the enemy and it is us".

An ol' Fox Four Driver