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View Full Version : CAL Contract


TipTip35
09-05-2007, 11:25 AM
CAL pilots,

Is CAL mgmt and pilot representation currently in continuous negotiations for the new contract? I saw a month or so ago that they started talks but I wasnt sure if it continued. Also is there a deadline that they are trying to have it done by or is this one that may take a few years to get passed...
Thanks


Ottopilot
09-05-2007, 11:42 AM
They are in negotiations and have completed many sections: the easy ones, of course. There is a schedule of negotiations, but I'm not sure what the finish date is. The pilots want it by January 09 (it's amendable December 31, 2008). I've never seen one signed on the amendable date.

catIIIc
09-05-2007, 01:06 PM
The company opened early because they want to get ours done first before AA so we will be the benchmark versus CAL having to match AA's new contract. Believe me this was not done because they like us so much.


TipTip35
09-05-2007, 01:16 PM
Did CAL pilots give up anything (pay, benefits, etc) following 9/11? I know they didnt furlough but was anything else done? Basically I'm wondering how they compared to DAL, UAL, and AA pre-9/11 and if they are trying to get back to that level...or were they never at that level....

Ottopilot
09-05-2007, 01:39 PM
Yes they did give up a lot after 9/11.
Yes they did furlough (some as flow back to Express and some to the street).
They were not at the level of other majors before 9/11, but they are the same now.

We hope to get it all back and more this time.

757Driver
09-05-2007, 01:53 PM
They were not at the level of other majors before 9/11, but they are the same now.

No way Otto. We only lead in hourly rates otherwise our contract sucks compared to everybody elses. That's a common theme here at CAL, jump at the pay rates while taking it in the shorts on every other issue within the contract. Myopic at best.

Ottopilot
09-05-2007, 02:49 PM
No way Otto. We only lead in hourly rates otherwise our contract sucks compared to everybody elses. That's a common theme here at CAL, jump at the pay rates while taking it in the shorts on every other issue within the contract. Myopic at best.


You are correct, I was just trying to be concise. I'm not that familiar with other airlines contracts before or after 9/11. I do know they gave up more than money too.

757Driver
09-05-2007, 02:57 PM
You are correct, I was just trying to be concise. I'm not that familiar with other airlines contracts before or after 9/11. I do know they gave up more than money too.

AA was smart and gave up mostly money, (although quite frankly none of us needed to give up anything), and kept the core items of their contract intact.

Of course you already know what happened at CAL. The company yelled "Boo" and we ran screaming like little girls right into their arms.

Pathetic.

ewrbasedpilot
09-06-2007, 04:50 AM
AA was smart and gave up mostly money, (although quite frankly none of us needed to give up anything), and kept the core items of their contract intact.

Of course you already know what happened at CAL. The company yelled "Boo" and we ran screaming like little girls right into their arms.

Pathetic.

Yes, but the CIC keeps saying BOO, and all the "rich" airline pilots believe everything he says too..................and hence all the security "crap" (you know, "take off your shoes..............." meanwhile we STILL have an ax in the cockpit) we have to deal with. Things were NOT good as many like you seem to believe, and having talked to quite a few people "in the know", CAL was headed straight for the mountain whether you want to believe it or not. We are much better positioned now due to the cuts........although I do think some were much more than needed. The company didn't have to yell anything, the airlines WERE in dire straights. How you couldn't see that is beyond me. Well, at least GWB and all his oil cronies are laughing all the way to the bank, courtesy the airlines and all the "experts" who keep predicting hurricanes and oil shortages to keep oil prices sky high. Do you still believe Iraq was responsible for 9-11 too? :rolleyes:

757Driver
09-06-2007, 05:58 AM
Yes, but the CIC keeps saying BOO, and all the "rich" airline pilots believe everything he says too..................and hence all the security "crap" (you know, "take off your shoes..............." meanwhile we STILL have an ax in the cockpit) we have to deal with. Things were NOT good as many like you seem to believe, and having talked to quite a few people "in the know", CAL was headed straight for the mountain whether you want to believe it or not. We are much better positioned now due to the cuts........although I do think some were much more than needed. The company didn't have to yell anything, the airlines WERE in dire straights. How you couldn't see that is beyond me. Well, at least GWB and all his oil cronies are laughing all the way to the bank, courtesy the airlines and all the "experts" who keep predicting hurricanes and oil shortages to keep oil prices sky high. Do you still believe Iraq was responsible for 9-11 too? :rolleyes:

Pay close attention to the above post folks, here's one of the "SLG's" that bought into the company propaganda and gave away the store, (with no snap-backs mind you, f'ing brilliant), just because the company said so.

Nice work EWR, you saved the company just like our friends during the '83-'85 debacle. Hopefully we've learned our lesson and you'll be a very silent minority during our next contract ratification process.

Lifeisgood
09-06-2007, 12:05 PM
Did CAL pilots give up anything (pay, benefits, etc) following 9/11? I know they didnt furlough but was anything else done? Basically I'm wondering how they compared to DAL, UAL, and AA pre-9/11 and if they are trying to get back to that level...or were they never at that level....

I heard even the best CAL's contract (97) was about 80% of other majors at that time in terms of pay and rules. Was it about right?

Spicy McHaggis
09-06-2007, 12:07 PM
I heard even the best CAL's contract (97) was about 80% of other majors at that time in terms of pay and rules. Was it about right?



From what I have heard, that sounds about right. We'll see what happens with this one.

757Driver
09-06-2007, 12:38 PM
I heard even the best CAL's contract (97) was about 80% of other majors at that time in terms of pay and rules. Was it about right?

Pretty much correct, we've always had a self-induced inferiority complex. Fortunately the scabs and the guys with EWR's attitude seem to be in the minority right now.

JoeyMeatballs
09-06-2007, 12:55 PM
Pretty much correct, we've always had a self-induced inferiority complex. Fortunately the scabs and the guys with EWR's attitude seem to be in the minority right now.

Ya know its funny you say that, We had a CAL jumpseater last week and he was a fun guy, really nice but he kept on saying, "nobody looks down at us anymore".............. It was out of nowhere, you could see he had issues. I would love to go to CAL, and thats my plan but I have noticed some people, mostly older CAL F/A's that treat Express guys/gals like **** I guess because that makes them feel better I dunno, for the most part though all of the CAL guys I come into contact with have been very friendly...........

A320fumes
09-06-2007, 01:30 PM
I heard even the best CAL's contract (97) was about 80% of other majors at that time in terms of pay and rules. Was it about right?

That's about right. New demographics on this contract. Should have over 1,500 highly ****ed-off $29/ hour uninsured pilots on the property. Newhires will be able to outvote the class of 1983-85......I hope.

reddog25
09-06-2007, 03:16 PM
Do you still believe Iraq was responsible for 9-11 too? :rolleyes:


Hey dude, How much time you spent in Iraq since 2003? I've done 2 tours. You need to get over the Iraq/9-11 connection. We are in Iraq, cuz bad guys who need dying are there. Every day we are there is a day closer to security. Just my 2 cents of someone who has flown over 180 misssions as a helicopter gunship pilot....

Ottopilot
09-06-2007, 03:58 PM
Pretty much correct, we've always had a self-induced inferiority complex. Fortunately the scabs and the guys with EWR's attitude seem to be in the minority right now.

EWR's attitude? Huh?:confused:

satchip
09-06-2007, 06:03 PM
Hey dude, How much time you spent in Iraq since 2003? I've done 2 tours. You need to get over the Iraq/9-11 connection. We are in Iraq, cuz bad guys who need dying are there. Every day we are there is a day closer to security. Just my 2 cents of someone who has flown over 180 misssions as a helicopter gunship pilot....

Well said.

Blkflyer
09-06-2007, 07:10 PM
Hey dude, How much time you spent in Iraq since 2003? I've done 2 tours. You need to get over the Iraq/9-11 connection. We are in Iraq, cuz bad guys who need dying are there. Every day we are there is a day closer to security. Just my 2 cents of someone who has flown over 180 misssions as a helicopter gunship pilot....

Is that the Kool aid they are serving.

We went to IRAQ using faulty INTEL thats FACT, and if we use your Logic then what are we doing about the Bad Guys that need dying in IRAN, Syria, North Korea, Pakistan et el, opps just remember the Pakistani people really Love US thats why we have been able to Track Bin-Laden, before you go bashing me, I am a Desert Shield/Storm Vet and I applaud your service to our country, but by no means am I going to let my Moral Compass be directed by Arrogance and Ignorance, I like many have Many Family and Friends who are on their 3 or more tours in Iraq, I have personally been to Walter Reed and Bethesda to see the Pain, My Loyalty like most is My Love for my Country however we need New Direction in Iraq. We Made a Mess and we must clean it up.

A320fumes
09-07-2007, 01:06 AM
Pretty much correct, we've always had a self-induced inferiority complex. Fortunately the scabs and the guys with EWR's attitude seem to be in the minority right now.

What attitude do the ewr pilots have in common with scabs? Just curious.

captjns
09-07-2007, 01:23 AM
My Loyalty like most is My Love for my Country however we need New Direction in Iraq. We Made a Mess and we must clean it up.

No... we didn't make the mess... the pin heads in DC made the mess and we have to clean up their mess.

Killship
09-07-2007, 02:55 AM
What attitude do the ewr pilots have in common with scabs? Just curious.

I think he meant ewrbasedpilots opinion, not Newark based pilots. Of all the bases EWR is the most vocal and active in the system.

HercDriver130
09-07-2007, 02:57 AM
And...EWRXXXXXXXX is a guy posting and he was refering to him ..... last time I looked it was a free country and everyone is entitled to their own thoughts.

A320fumes
09-07-2007, 03:13 AM
I think he meant ewrbasedpilots opinion, not Newark based pilots. Of all the bases EWR is the most vocal and active in the system.

Ok. Had to re-read. But I was hoping that the said ewr based pilot's attitude was in the majority. And even the scabs seem to be upset with PBS. Hope AA raises the bar, I doubt seriously if our union is in a position to do better than the guys at the other majors.

757Driver
09-07-2007, 07:38 AM
What attitude do the ewr pilots have in common with scabs? Just curious.

Not EWR, (I'm based there as well), but EWRBasedPilot. He is entitled to his opinion but he's way off base as far as I'm concerned. Our company asked for and received every single concessionary item they wanted. Completely unnecessary and embarrassing.

A320fumes
09-07-2007, 09:55 AM
Not EWR, (I'm based there as well), but EWRBasedPilot. He is entitled to his opinion but he's way off base as far as I'm concerned. Our company asked for and received every single concessionary item they wanted. Completely unnecessary and embarrassing.
Look forward to voting no with you. Haven't had a good union fight, against the company, in years. I think the rest of the new-hires feel the same. During negotiations, the company gets what they pay for!

Ottopilot
09-07-2007, 11:24 AM
Not EWR, (I'm based there as well), but EWRBasedPilot. He is entitled to his opinion but he's way off base as far as I'm concerned. Our company asked for and received every single concessionary item they wanted. Completely unnecessary and embarrassing.

I was told the union offered stuff the company didn't even ask for. This time they work for the pilots and not the company.

"Just say no!"

757Driver
09-07-2007, 01:32 PM
I was told the union offered stuff the company didn't even ask for. This time they work for the pilots and not the company.

"Just say no!"

Yes like PBS and the 90 day waiting period on LTD. The company didn't even broach the subject on those two items, our buddy dill weed Stivala did though.

ewrbasedpilot
09-07-2007, 03:03 PM
Pay close attention to the above post folks, here's one of the "SLG's" that bought into the company propaganda and gave away the store, (with no snap-backs mind you, f'ing brilliant), just because the company said so.

Nice work EWR, you saved the company just like our friends during the '83-'85 debacle. Hopefully we've learned our lesson and you'll be a very silent minority during our next contract ratification process.

Stupid question here: who did you vote for in the last election? Bush? If so, you did more to hurt our careers than I'll ever do. Talk about being anti-labor/union. I voted the way I did for personal reasons. Your seniority was probably such that you weren't even close to furlough. Unlike myself, I've been furloughed FOUR times (once at CAL), and I was financially going under. Scared? Maybe, but when you have "protections", it's another whole story. If I told you that you were 10 numbers from being furloughed with no idea when you'd be coming back, I'm sure you'd throw up your hand and take a chance...............NOT. I know your kind....... you're a professional poker player but won't bet because you know you'll lose. If you're so smart, what are you still doing flying at an airline?????? I'd be in LAS winning a fortune. Oh, I guess it's not that easy, is it? :rolleyes:

ewrbasedpilot
09-07-2007, 03:11 PM
Not EWR, (I'm based there as well), but EWRBasedPilot. He is entitled to his opinion but he's way off base as far as I'm concerned. Our company asked for and received every single concessionary item they wanted. Completely unnecessary and embarrassing.


As a union supporter, I did what they asked of me. Blindly? No.....I went to the roadshows and listened as independent financial "experts" told of CAL being in financial straights and needing immediate relief. Did they need to lie to me? What incentive did they have? I based my decisions on what they told me. Do I agree with everything? Absolutely not, but I was looking at the whole picture, not just the parts I agreed or disagreed with. I'm okay with my vote, as are many of my friends, many who are active union reps. Off base? Maybe, but I think you're off base too. You are also entitled to your opinion. That's what makes this country so great.....................

Ottopilot
09-07-2007, 05:36 PM
Stupid question here: who did you vote for in the last election? Bush?

Bush caused the CAL pilots to vote yes on the last contract. Right. :D

People always blame the current president for their problems.

757Driver
09-07-2007, 08:08 PM
Stupid question here: who did you vote for in the last election? Bush? If so, you did more to hurt our careers than I'll ever do. Talk about being anti-labor/union. I voted the way I did for personal reasons. Your seniority was probably such that you weren't even close to furlough. Unlike myself, I've been furloughed FOUR times (once at CAL), and I was financially going under. Scared? Maybe, but when you have "protections", it's another whole story. If I told you that you were 10 numbers from being furloughed with no idea when you'd be coming back, I'm sure you'd throw up your hand and take a chance...............NOT. I know your kind....... you're a professional poker player but won't bet because you know you'll lose. If you're so smart, what are you still doing flying at an airline?????? I'd be in LAS winning a fortune. Oh, I guess it's not that easy, is it? :rolleyes:

Guess you weren't around when we furloughed in 1995 were you? In case you haven't read the company playbook, throwing out "scary" scenarios, is designed for people like you.

They were no closer to furloughing you then closing down the place. You and 52% of us swallowed the bait while 48% of us didn't. Hindsight is always 20/20 but I didn't need a friggin crystal ball to know that our management was full of sh!t.

PS, didn't vote for Bush-wacker my friend, so try grasping at another straw.:rolleyes:

757Driver
09-07-2007, 08:11 PM
As a union supporter, I did what they asked of me. Blindly? No.....I went to the roadshows and listened as independent financial "experts" told of CAL being in financial straights and needing immediate relief. Did they need to lie to me? What incentive did they have? I based my decisions on what they told me. Do I agree with everything? Absolutely not, but I was looking at the whole picture, not just the parts I agreed or disagreed with. I'm okay with my vote, as are many of my friends, many who are active union reps. Off base? Maybe, but I think you're off base too. You are also entitled to your opinion. That's what makes this country so great.....................

Are you a blind automotron that doesn't think for himself? As for your friends, they've pretty much cleared the Union halls of any Yes voters so unless they're in charge of Crew Meals, I doubt they have any real say in the day to day operation of our association.

It really is OK to admit you f'd up. I'd respect you way more if you did instead of blindly supporting a document that never should have even seen the light of day.

flyboy1987
09-08-2007, 11:23 AM
That's about right. New demographics on this contract. Should have over 1,500 highly ****ed-off $29/ hour uninsured pilots on the property. Newhires will be able to outvote the class of 1983-85......I hope.

A big fat HELL YEAH on that 320!

ewrbasedpilot
09-08-2007, 11:45 AM
Guess you weren't around when we furloughed in 1995 were you? In case you haven't read the company playbook, throwing out "scary" scenarios, is designed for people like you.

They were no closer to furloughing you then closing down the place. You and 52% of us swallowed the bait while 48% of us didn't. Hindsight is always 20/20 but I didn't need a friggin crystal ball to know that our management was full of sh!t.

PS, didn't vote for Bush-wacker my friend, so try grasping at another straw.:rolleyes:


You know, I've heard your "pitch" before. Supposedly the LAST time I wasn't close to being furloughed I ended up at Express. All the "experts" (guys like you) were WRONG. I don't listen to your advice any more. I'm better off throwing a dart at a board and using that info. Another question....do you wear a union pin, because you sure don't act like a "union member"? As I said, if I was an "expert" like you, I'd be in LAS, NOT flying a plane making peanuts. Are you scared to gamble with your money because I know you'll gamble with my career. Having 2000 pilots below you in bad times is a nice cushion.............I had 37 below me. BIG difference. It's easy to throw rocks when they can't come back and hit you.

Sooo.........another Ralph Nader voter..............:p

ewrbasedpilot
09-08-2007, 11:49 AM
Are you a blind automotron that doesn't think for himself? As for your friends, they've pretty much cleared the Union halls of any Yes voters so unless they're in charge of Crew Meals, I doubt they have any real say in the day to day operation of our association.

It really is OK to admit you f'd up. I'd respect you way more if you did instead of blindly supporting a document that never should have even seen the light of day.

Just wondering if you saw the books? The guys I spoke with DID, and they said it didn't paint a pretty picture. Sorry I believed them, instead of you. BTW, since you seem to have a cyrstal ball for telling the "airline future", what is going to happen to CAL in the next year or so? I'd really like to know and you seem to be the most informed, right????:eek:

ewrbasedpilot
09-08-2007, 11:53 AM
Bush caused the CAL pilots to vote yes on the last contract. Right. :D

People always blame the current president for their problems.

Funny, but when Clinton was in office, our contracts were jumping by leaps and bounds...........now they just suck and keep on sucking. ATC's were given nice pay/benefit cuts courtesy of ole Georgey boy, and look at who's getting screwed by it. US!! Security is being run by a bunch of idiots, courtesy ole Georgey boy, and now our good friends in the middleeast (according to ole Georgey boy they ARE our good friends and peaceful loving too!!!) hate our guts and are trying to kill us. Yep...........Bush is certainly our friend in this industry, isn't he?

dojetdriver
09-08-2007, 12:57 PM
I can't believe the mods haven't shut down the thread due to political discussion. Amazing what they see fit to stay and not fit to stay.

757Driver
09-08-2007, 02:27 PM
I'm better off throwing a dart at a board and using that info.

Which is exactly what you did with our last contract. Christ CAL Management loves guys like you. Look out, we're going to furlough, watch it, we're going out of business ect....

Talk to Tim B. on the negotiating committee if you want to talk about financial books.

Thank God you're almost completely alone out there with your wacked-out opinion. The guys I fly with that voted Yes are at least brave enough to admit they screwed up big time, you'd probably vote for further cuts.

Good luck with the Uniform committee, at least they're keeping you away from anything financial.

Ottopilot
09-08-2007, 02:40 PM
Funny, but when Clinton was in office, our contracts were jumping by leaps and bounds...........now they just suck and keep on sucking. ATC's were given nice pay/benefit cuts courtesy of ole Georgey boy, and look at who's getting screwed by it. US!! Security is being run by a bunch of idiots, courtesy ole Georgey boy, and now our good friends in the middleeast (according to ole Georgey boy they ARE our good friends and peaceful loving too!!!) hate our guts and are trying to kill us. Yep...........Bush is certainly our friend in this industry, isn't he?

So Clinton is responsible for the great contracts? The economy goes up and down no matter who's in the office. What would you think of Clinton if 9/11 happend when he was in office? The president is the head of the executive branch of our government, his job is to enforce the laws. The economy has nothing to do with his job.

Futureman
09-08-2007, 03:03 PM
So Clinton is responsible for the great contracts? The economy goes up and down no matter who's in the office. What would you think of Clinton if 9/11 happend when he was in office? The president is the head of the executive branch of our government, his job is to enforce the laws. The economy has nothing to do with his job.
Why do all these nutjobs think politicians control pilot pay? Airline pilots are not government employees. If they really want to be angry with politicians, they should be angry with the Democrats, who sponsored the ADA, which was then signed into law by Carter.

ewrbasedpilot
09-08-2007, 03:09 PM
Which is exactly what you did with our last contract. Christ CAL Management loves guys like you. Look out, we're going to furlough, watch it, we're going out of business ect....

Talk to Tim B. on the negotiating committee if you want to talk about financial books.

Thank God you're almost completely alone out there with your wacked-out opinion. The guys I fly with that voted Yes are at least brave enough to admit they screwed up big time, you'd probably vote for further cuts.

Good luck with the Uniform committee, at least they're keeping you away from anything financial.

My 401 K is up 40% this year and I already have a military retirement awaiting me thank you very much. I'm not as alone as you might think either. But you can put me down all you want. I sure don't see your name and ANY committee. Gee, I didn't know you had to be brave to say you voted yes. I guess 52% (the majority????) felt the same way I did. Get over it for crying out loud. Beat me up all you want, but you voted the way you wanted for your reasons, and I voted the way I did for my reasons. If that offends you, well........tough.:rolleyes: At least I'm ON a committee. If you're such a smart fella, why aren't YOU negotiating our next contract?

ewrbasedpilot
09-08-2007, 03:17 PM
Why do all these nutjobs think politicians control pilot pay? Airline pilots are not government employees. If they really want to be angry with politicians, they should be angry with the Democrats, who sponsored the ADA, which was then signed into law by Carter.


Oh how right you are. We should be jumping with glee at guys like Reagan (union buster), GHWB (union buster and good friend of FRANK LORENZO), and GWB, union buster. Seems like every time these guys get in office, labor (us) takes major hits. Yeah, I'll take republicans anytime. Then I can take my taxes and pay for this abortion of a war that GWB got us into. Okay, I know that the Iraqi's did this to us and we have to attack them to prevent it from happening again...........at least that's what the republicans seem to think. Funny how Saddam has cost our country so dearly, and even after his death he's STILL costing us dearly. At least the oil barrons are making a killing. I feel sooooo much better knowing that our dilapidated ATC system isn't worthy of being updated, but sending money to a country that hates us is a great idea......................