Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Another AA recall question


tone
09-06-2007, 04:36 PM
Not to start yet another all out brawl, but I am in the group of so-called e furloughed guys that some say will be "new hires" if the recalls ever reach us...So my question is this--IF indeed we end up actually treated as new-hires, does that mean we will start at the 1st year payscale, even if I was a 3rd year F/O, and will I be on probation for a year, or do I go in where I left off? Obviously I am really confused as I was years ago when we were integrated. Thanks...


EXTW
09-06-2007, 06:02 PM
You go in where you left off.


EXTW

aa73
09-06-2007, 06:04 PM
Hi Tone, I'll take a crack a it... at the risk of getting pot shots thrown at me.

The way I understand it, you would "flow through" to American the same way an Eagle pilot would "flow through" as part of a new hire class... WITH THE EXCEPTION THAT you were a previous TWA pilot, and therefore you would come back with your 3 year status.

In other words, the "new hire" term IS ONLY INDICATIVE of "flowing through" to AA even though it really is not a new hire class- it is a recall class. But since you're considered a "new hire" (haven't gone through DSI - dark side indoc, crossing over from LLC to AA), you would be lumped in with groups of Eagle pilots who are also eligible to flow through. The Eagle pilots would not ordinarily have been able to flow through until we started hiring, but thanks to the new definition of "new hire", they can suddenly flow, along with youse guys. The difference is, those Eagle pilots would flow through at first year pay, whereas you would start from year 3.

Anybody have different info, please feel free to correct me. This is mostly speculation on my part, based on several conversations with Eagle folks "in the know."

P.s. Re: the old thread that was closed. APA has ALWAYS been able to negotiate longevity for the returning furloughees. I don't see it being ANY different in this case. APA does not care about the background of the pilot - they are all AA pilots out of work. And by NOT negotiating longevity, they would screw over tons of natives and ex TWA pilots together, so that won't fly. Regardless of your background, APA represents you, and believe me when I say they WILL attempt to restore longevity. Now, what you want to believe based on "doom and gloom" scenarios from other skeptics is up to you - I am posting this based on past history.

73


EXTW
09-06-2007, 07:17 PM
The Eagle pilots would not ordinarily have been able to flow through until we started hiring, but thanks to the new definition of "new hire", they can suddenly flow, along with youse guys.
73

73,

Those AE guys "in the know", are giving their guys some pre-mature and very likely "false hope". This is the topic of the recent meetings since the arbitration decision. Let's wait until we see something "official" before you state that flowthroughs will come on board before all furloughees are back.

EXTW

BTW There are already guys back that had never crossed the fence.

PS The Captain reinstatements reffered to in the "other" post are only reinstatement rights, not actual Captain bid awards.

B757200ER
09-06-2007, 07:44 PM
73,

Those AE guys "in the know", are giving their guys some pre-mature and very likely "false hope". This is the topic of the recent meetings since the arbitration decision. Let's wait until we see something "official" before you state that flowthroughs will come on board before all furloughees are back.

I have to agree aa73; your post is a little too optomistic for me, even if good-intentioned. And the Letter 3 issue is not resolved, and AE may not get the outcome they were hoping for. Time will tell.

aa73
09-06-2007, 07:53 PM
Thanks guys: that's why I started my post with "as I understand it", meaning that, that's what would happen if approved.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about it, but I should've mentioned that it hasn't been ruled on yet.

Stay tuned...

aa73
09-06-2007, 07:58 PM
PS The Captain reinstatements reffered to in the "other" post are only reinstatement rights, not actual Captain bid awards.

There shouldn't be any doubt about that. Nobody comes back straight to the left seat unless their seniority can hold it - and the only way that would happen would be through a furlough stand in stead (which was her case.)

As it stands, the very first TWAers recalled stand to upgrade to CA by the end of the year, if they keep the reinstatements going at the same pace. Right now, the first TWA recallee is only 9 numbers away from reinstating to MD80 CA.

FliFast
09-07-2007, 01:22 AM
aa73,

I'd have to agree with you. I've talked to a couple in recall class that have said the same thing you mentioned.

Quick question, how many S80 F/Os are there in STL, do you know ? Thanks

FF

tone
09-07-2007, 03:07 AM
I have to agree aa73; your post is a little too optomistic for me, even if good-intentioned. And the Letter 3 issue is not resolved, and AE may not get the outcome they were hoping for. Time will tell.


Anyone have any idea how many Eagle guys fall under Letter 3?

7576FO
09-07-2007, 06:13 AM
261 S80 FO's in St Louis.

Eff Oct 1 07'

Flyby1206
09-07-2007, 07:18 AM
Anyone have any idea how many Eagle guys fall under Letter 3?

There are approx 395 AE CAs who are flowthrough pilots with AA seniority #s already issued (seniority ranges from #9600-13100). There are hundreds more (400+) who have elected to flowthrough but have not been issued a seniority #.

tone
09-07-2007, 10:46 AM
So the 395 that you are talking about are already reflected on our seniority list posted? If so, then the only ones I should be concerned about are the 400+ that you say don't have #'s yet, since they would bump us down by 400 numbers? Also, I'm assuming that all would accept recall on the first shot since it has to be a step up from Eagle. Therefore it is sure to delay a recall by at least 8 months assuming it stays at 50 per month? What's the status on all of this. Any chance they would integrate the Eagle guys instead of yet another mini "staple" affecting part of the TWA guys yet again?

7576FO
09-07-2007, 11:24 AM
Hi tone,

I just looked at the July 07 Seniority list.

the bottom person is 11,927. The Eagle Flow thru's Seniority #'s are included on the seniority list.

So the 395 that you are talking about are already reflected on our seniority list posted? If so, then the only ones I should be concerned about are the 400+ that you say don't have #'s yet, since they would bump us down by 400 numbers? Also, I'm assuming that all would accept recall on the first shot since it has to be a step up from Eagle. Therefore it is sure to delay a recall by at least 8 months assuming it stays at 50 per month? What's the status on all of this. Any chance they would integrate the Eagle guys instead of yet another mini "staple" affecting part of the TWA guys yet again?

So I don't understand. Are you an Eagle guy w/out a Sen # or are you on the Seniority list.
If you're on the seniority list. All the Eagle Flow thru's that are ahead of you are accounted for.

Just trying to be helpful.

Hoss
09-07-2007, 11:33 AM
I wouldn't worry about the Eagle guys without numbers somehow winding up senior to the most JUNIOR pilot on the AA list. I would say that there is about a zero percent chance of that happening. Can you imagine the uproar if the APA were to allow the seniority list to be altered by adding in hundreds of Eagle guys that didn't even have a seniority number to begin with? In all likelyhood, none of those without numbers will ever even flow up to AA - assuming all involve allow sup. W to expire in May.

tone
09-07-2007, 11:43 AM
Hi tone,

I just looked at the July 07 Seniority list.

the bottom person is 11,927. The Eagle Flow thru's Seniority #'s are included on the seniority list.

So the 395 that you are talking about are already reflected on our seniority list posted? If so, then the only ones I should be concerned about are the 400+ that you say don't have #'s yet, since they would bump us down by 400 numbers? Also, I'm assuming that all would accept recall on the first shot since it has to be a step up from Eagle. Therefore it is sure to delay a recall by at least 8 months assuming it stays at 50 per month? What's the status on all of this. Any chance they would integrate the Eagle guys instead of yet another mini "staple" affecting part of the TWA guys yet again?

So I don't understand. Are you an Eagle guy w/out a Sen # or are you on the Seniority list.
If you're on the seniority list. All the Eagle Flow thru's that are ahead of you are accounted for.

Just trying to be helpful.

Thanks--Actually I'm one of the TWA guys that is considered a new-hire as per the letter 3. I just was wondering how many COULD knock me down worst-case---But if all the Eagle guys are already accounted for looks like we may be OK. Thanks for the info--We'll see how Letter3 pans out?!

Flyby1206
09-07-2007, 12:14 PM
Thanks--Actually I'm one of the TWA guys that is considered a new-hire as per the letter 3. I just was wondering how many COULD knock me down worst-case---But if all the Eagle guys are already accounted for looks like we may be OK. Thanks for the info--We'll see how Letter3 pans out?!

The next meeting of all 4 parties (ALPA, APA, AA, AE) will be Sept 18. Apparently things are just about resolved and we should be hearing something very soon.

Are all the furloughed TWA pilots including those who never went to AA Indoc shown on the AA seniority list?

B757200ER
09-07-2007, 12:16 PM
Yes; Indoc doesn;t affect your seniority number. It remains the same.

Hoss
09-07-2007, 12:29 PM
The real wildcard here is that there are 385 "real" AA pilots on the list that are JUNIOR to the most junior TWA pilot. These 385 were hired by AA and some were actually flying the line before being furloughed. There is no way that the APA or some arbitrator will allow a single non-numbered Eagle guy to be placed above the most junior AA pilot. Do these non-numbered Eagle guys really believe that they will now suddenly be placed on the seniority list ahead of guys hired by AA in 2001 and flying the line before being furloughed? No way in h**l that will happen.

tone
09-07-2007, 12:31 PM
Good. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Eagle pilots never attended American Airlines Indoc either. Right? Or is Eagle indoc considered American since it's owned by AA. If not, then they will be called AFTER all TWA guys.---

FliFast
09-07-2007, 03:41 PM
A little bit off the thread's basis, but the staplees have not gone to "other side" training. Any thoughts if this additional training will jam up the school house once the pipeline turns from blue to red ???

Asked another way, will the recall process be able to sustain 40-60 month once the recall training involves more training ????

Mink
09-07-2007, 03:58 PM
The real wildcard here is that there are 385 "real" AA pilots on the list that are JUNIOR to the most junior TWA pilot. These 385 were hired by AA and some were actually flying the line before being furloughed. There is no way that the APA or some arbitrator will allow a single non-numbered Eagle guy to be placed above the most junior AA pilot. Do these non-numbered Eagle guys really believe that they will now suddenly be placed on the seniority list ahead of guys hired by AA in 2001 and flying the line before being furloughed? No way in h**l that will happen.


I'm one of the 385 and was flying the line (not very long, though). Nothing personal against AE guys, but if they jump ahead I will be even more bitter than I am now.:mad:

aa73
09-07-2007, 05:57 PM
A little bit off the thread's basis, but the staplees have not gone to "other side" training. Any thoughts if this additional training will jam up the school house once the pipeline turns from blue to red ???

Asked another way, will the recall process be able to sustain 40-60 month once the recall training involves more training ????

Shouldn't be any additional training.... all recalless attend the same recall course no matter what their background is. I fully expect the school house to increase up beyond 50/month sometime in the near future.

7576FO
09-07-2007, 07:04 PM
Shouldn't be any additional training.... all recalless attend the same recall course no matter what their background is. I fully expect the school house to increase up beyond 50/month sometime in the near future.


Rumor on the APA website was u[ to 75 a month.

Hey, I don't know I just work here.

Just happy to have some New Blood Back!
People that care.
I'm around so many people that just don't care.

tone
09-08-2007, 05:28 AM
7576FO:

You seem to know REAL info, and thanks for your input. I am mid 11000's in seniority (yes, ex TWA, and never went to AA indoc). I was figuring around getting a call around March-ish? Should I be concerned with Letter 3? Where would they place the American Eagle pilots, and in your opinion, if you were in my shoes, would you count on going back that soon, given the estimates of recalls going past 50 a month? Of course barring any unforseen things. Thanks!----

Flyby1206
09-08-2007, 06:02 AM
AE pilots who have elected flowthrough but have not been issued a number are NOT expecting to be inserted into the AA list anywhere except the bottom. All flowthrough pilots numbered and non-numbered are even skeptical about having an opportunity to go to AA ever.

aa73
09-08-2007, 06:11 AM
7576FO:

You seem to know REAL info, and thanks for your input. I am mid 11000's in seniority (yes, ex TWA, and never went to AA indoc). I was figuring around getting a call around March-ish? Should I be concerned with Letter 3? Where would they place the American Eagle pilots, and in your opinion, if you were in my shoes, would you count on going back that soon, given the estimates of recalls going past 50 a month? Of course barring any unforseen things. Thanks!----

I'll put in $0.02... yes I do think you'll be back by next spring. I also think they'll be through the whole furlough list by the end of next fall and hiring off the street by 2009.

As far as where AE pilots would be placed, it's a big ? for right now, until the arbitrator rules on it later next week.

Things are a-moving faster than planned at good 'ol AA these days.... I'm very busy with SPC work for the union right now and it's gonna get real interesting next year.

Oldfreightdawg
09-08-2007, 06:43 AM
Total furloughed: 2905. Total that quit: 85. Total AE flowbacks 353. AE flowbacks recalled: 146. Total AE flowbacks remaining to be recalled: 188. Total recalled: 287. Total accepting recall but remain on MLOA: 141. Total recalled: 428. Total Deferrals: 428. Total offered recall: 887. Total yet to be offered recall: 1963. Depending on how you look at the numbers, it's 50-50. Half returning, half deferring, and about 10% saying "no thanks". Of the half that is returning, about 30% are on MLOA. So about 1 returning to fill a class for every 3 phone calls.

Just had a line check. The latest rumor the check airman had was that recalls will remain at 40 a month, give or take, for now. AA is still putting it's 2008 ops plan together. Dovetailing with this is APA has broken off negotiations to "retool" and said they will return to the bargaining table in October. AA is waiting to "size up" the new APA administration before making any other decisions about recalls. Sounds to me like hostage taking.

7576FO
09-08-2007, 08:04 AM
7576FO:

You seem to know REAL info, and thanks for your input. I am mid 11000's in seniority (yes, ex TWA, and never went to AA indoc). I was figuring around getting a call around March-ish? Should I be concerned with Letter 3? Where would they place the American Eagle pilots, and in your opinion, if you were in my shoes, would you count on going back that soon, given the estimates of recalls going past 50 a month? Of course barring any unforseen things. Thanks!----

Hi Tone,
Believe it or not i've learned more about Supp CC and W and Letter 3 on this forum than i have on AA Pilots or APA website.
I'm not an expert on the Eagle Flowthru, i'm guilty of Airline pilot apathy (if it doesn't affect me-why read about it) but am interested in it now.
My understanding is if you are on the Sen List (and you are) any flowthru's that are coming in ahead of you would already be on the seniority list.
Where it gets weird was, the Flowthru's sign a letter of agreement when accepting the RJ CA bid at Eagle. Do you want to flow thru at AA YES or NO?
If Yes they get a Seniority # right then. After 2 years if AA is hiring they can come to AA training. And have 2 years seniority, but they go to first year pay. I believe they keep Vacation and Sick time.

Tone if you're around mid 11,000's I hope you're back by summer 08 or late 08. I also hope you get a widebody.

B757200ER
09-08-2007, 08:53 AM
Good. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Eagle pilots never attended American Airlines Indoc either. Right? Or is Eagle indoc considered American since it's owned by AA. If not, then they will be called AFTER all TWA guys.---

AMR Eagle is owned by AMR Corporation; TWA LLC was owned by AA, which is owned by AMR. Clear enough?

7576FO
09-08-2007, 09:09 AM
AMR Eagle is owned by AMR Corporation; TWA LLC was owned by AA, which is owned by AMR. Clear enough?


There is some kind of Indoc. 2 days maybe 3. for Eagle flowthru's.
Eagle uses a completely different ops specs.

If you were furloughed while still operating under the TW ops specs (not the AA part 1-flt ops manual) then you'd get a 2 or 3 day indoc.

Again, i'm not an expert on any of this.

tone
09-08-2007, 12:40 PM
Hi Tone,
Believe it or not i've learned more about Supp CC and W and Letter 3 on this forum than i have on AA Pilots or APA website.
I'm not an expert on the Eagle Flowthru, i'm guilty of Airline pilot apathy (if it doesn't affect me-why read about it) but am interested in it now.
My understanding is if you are on the Sen List (and you are) any flowthru's that are coming in ahead of you would already be on the seniority list.
Where it gets weird was, the Flowthru's sign a letter of agreement when accepting the RJ CA bid at Eagle. Do you want to flow thru at AA YES or NO?
If Yes they get a Seniority # right then. After 2 years if AA is hiring they can come to AA training. And have 2 years seniority, but they go to first year pay. I believe they keep Vacation and Sick time.

Tone if you're around mid 11,000's I hope you're back by summer 08 or late 08. I also hope you get a widebody.

So they have to wait till AA is hiring off the street, not just recalling? Thank you for all your help----

7576FO
09-08-2007, 12:53 PM
Uh, if they're recalling and they already have a seniority # then they can flow through.

I'm going to research it some more this week. and then report back.

tone
09-08-2007, 05:08 PM
Uh, if they're recalling and they already have a seniority # then they can flow through.

I'm going to research it some more this week. and then report back.

Thanks Again....

7576FO
09-08-2007, 06:15 PM
Thanks Again....


They make it so complicated around here. The Seniority list is color coded. I look at the legend for the codes.

Then there's all kind of stuff that is not explained. There's a Green Line on page like 168 or somewhere. I think thats where the furloughs went to. But it's not mentioned anywhere.
Then there's the Boxed names 90 furlougees i think (that's me)
but nowhere is it mentioned.

Then all the codes TAG terminated awaiting greivance (Yikes) there's more than a dozen of those.

I can't tell anywhere where an Eagle flow thru guy has been (flowed) or Recalled back. There's one Eagle Flow thru with a 1998 seniority date. That's pretty good. Wonder if he'll exercise it?

I'll find out this week and report back.

EXTW
09-08-2007, 08:59 PM
I can't tell anywhere where an Eagle flow thru guy has been (flowed) or Recalled back. There's one Eagle Flow thru with a 1998 seniority date. That's pretty good. Wonder if he'll exercise it?




Since the recalls began, there have been zero AE "flowthroughs" go from AE to AA. This is the subject of the pending grievance.