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View Full Version : CAL new-hires


A320fumes
09-06-2007, 04:53 PM
I spoke with some senior management folks at CAL, 1,200 new-hires and over 130 have quit. What has been your experience? What do you think of our future?


JoeyMeatballs
09-06-2007, 05:06 PM
I spoke with some senior management folks at CAL, 1,200 new-hires and over 130 have quit. What has been your experience? What do you think of our future?

Thats not good numbers, had a 756 F/O the other day who jumpseated with us to CVG say he had an interview with DAL coming up...............CAL has been the only one hiring recently so some that want to live in base may pursue other options, United, NWA, and DAL may be a better option, or I could be completely clueless as well. To me it is crazy to leave CAL, well DAL seems like a good move, getting on with the beginning of hiring and the pay is much better, but NWA, and United I dunno, but I talk to commuters and they say living in base is worth it to them, CAL's hubs arent the greatest except for a Jersey boy like myself...............

(They should Hire me with no PIC TURBINE, I cant leave ;)

A320fumes
09-06-2007, 05:23 PM
That's not good numbers, had a 756 F/O the other day who jumpseated with us to CVG say he had an interview with DAL coming up...............CAL has been the only one hiring recently so some that want to live in base may pursue other options, United, NWA, and DAL may be a better option, or I could be completely clueless as well. To me it is crazy to leave CAL, well DAL seems like a good move, getting on with the beginning of hiring and the pay is much better, but NWA, and United I dunno, but I talk to commuters and they say living in base is worth it to them, Cal's hubs are the greatest except for a Jersey boy like myself...............

(They should Hire me with no PIC TURBINE, I cant leave ;)

I started another post about this issue. I think that the lack of respect at CAL is probably the mitigating factor in the resignations. The class of 1983-85 don't really seem to need respect. I don't know how many times I've heard Captains say "that's just the way the company is" as an excuse for not standing up for the crew. On my first trip after IOE, I flew with a captain and asked her about a line issue, she told me that she was not an instructor and "they should have taught you that on IOE". I had a lot more PIC turbine time than she but couldn't help feel sorry for her. No ambition or understanding about Captain's authority or privilege. A strong leader/captain can overcome this resignation, but all can't. Respect is a big problem at CAL. Hope we can fix that.


TipTip35
09-06-2007, 05:38 PM
I spoke with some senior management folks at CAL, 1,200 new-hires and over 130 have quit. What has been your experience? What do you think of our future?

A320,

did the sr mgt folks say any more about why they thought 10% of the new hires were bailing? I'm mainly curious if they think the factors are external (hiring picking up at other airlines) or internal (the guys just didnt like CAL)

Lifeisgood
09-07-2007, 05:59 AM
I have a friend who is planning on leaving after 2 years at CAL! He can hold CA in EWR on this bid!
He says he doesn't like how separated the pilot group is, plus the bases - he'd really like to move back to the West Coast.

A320fumes
09-07-2007, 06:43 AM
I have a friend who is planning on leaving after 2 years at CAL! He can hold CA in EWR on this bid!
He says he doesn't like how separated the pilot group is, plus the bases - he'd really like to move back to the West Coast.

The separation of the pilot group manifest itself in almost all aspects of the job. If I were 10 years younger, I'd seek greener pastures. The equipment, growth and time to upgrade is remarkable. And I'm hopeful that a little.....lot of new blood is the ingredient we need to get some sort of respectable existence. Barring that, we'll be merging into someone else's list before I retire. That will suck for everybody, but we might actually get a union with some teeth. TWT

Lifeisgood
09-07-2007, 08:05 AM
A320,

He is 34. Would you go to Delta at 34?
I think he is crazy, but it is a family matter..

Cheers

A320fumes
09-07-2007, 09:52 AM
A320,

He is 34. Would you go to Delta at 34?

Cheers

Nope. Coming to CAL @ 35 was a risk.

Ottopilot
09-07-2007, 11:26 AM
Nope. Coming to CAL @ 35 was a risk.

I was older than that. What's the risk? Do younger people have no risk?

ERJ Jay
09-07-2007, 11:32 AM
I spoke with some senior management folks at CAL, 1,200 new-hires and over 130 have quit.

I was hearing 20-25% by the end of the first year. By that assumption, 10.8% isn't bad.:eek:

chignutsak
09-07-2007, 11:57 AM
On my first trip after IOE, I flew with a captain and asked her about a line issue, she told me that she was not an instructor and "they should have taught you that on IOE". I had a lot more PIC turbine time than she but couldn't help feel sorry for her. No ambition or understanding about Captain's authority or privilege. A strong leader/captain can overcome this resignation, but all can't. Respect is a big problem at CAL. Hope we can fix that.

Geesh, I hope that wasn't a 4 day.

ewrbasedpilot
09-07-2007, 03:22 PM
I was hearing 20-25% by the end of the first year. By that assumption, 10.8% isn't bad.:eek:

The sad thing is that they're costing a lot of people jobs. I'd hate to have some clown get hired, typed, and then bail, meanwhile my friend was sitting on the sideline trying to get hired. It costs a lot to put a person through training only to have them leave. But, what goes around comes around and these guys could be putting their nuts in a vise grip. This industry is way to small to jump around and not worry about the consequences. Can you imagine going to bat for a friend, they get hired and bail? You'd have zero credibility ever getting another person hired.

Ottopilot
09-07-2007, 05:38 PM
The sad thing is that they're costing a lot of people jobs. I'd hate to have some clown get hired, typed, and then bail, meanwhile my friend was sitting on the sideline trying to get hired. It costs a lot to put a person through training only to have them leave. But, what goes around comes around and these guys could be putting their nuts in a vise grip. This industry is way to small to jump around and not worry about the consequences. Can you imagine going to bat for a friend, they get hired and bail? You'd have zero credibility ever getting another person hired.


I heard of guys going to CAL to get paid to get the 737 type rating then leaving for SWA. Not cool.

dojetdriver
09-07-2007, 05:46 PM
I heard of guys going to CAL to get paid to get the 737 type rating then leaving for SWA. Not cool.

Getting hired at CAL, being paid $29/hr first year, no insurance for 6 months, the lovely choices of IAH, EWR, CLE, and sometimes Guam as domiciles for the rest of your career. Having what is regarded as one of the worst contracts in the industry for an airline that is doing the best relative to it's peers.

Not Cool.

Not flaming you, or any other CAL pilot, but can you blame some guys?

A320fumes
09-07-2007, 06:24 PM
Getting hired at CAL, being paid $29/hr first year, no insurance for 6 months, the lovely choices of IAH, EWR, CLE, and sometimes Guam as domiciles for the rest of your career. Having what is regarded as one of the worst contracts in the industry for an airline that is doing the best relative to it's peers.

Not Cool.

Not flaming you, or any other CAL pilot, but can you blame some guys?

I agree wholeheartedly dojet. I wonder how much money they wasted in type ratings and training to keep their shamefully low F/O pay? CAL F/O pay is less than American, United, NWA and Delta: the latter of the three fresh out of bankruptcy. And the CA pay ain't great. Unless something happens on the new contract or we merge with a strong union carrier, CAL will soon return to the bottom of the heap as other unions recoup their concessions and our guys pick up the companie's open time.

757Driver
09-07-2007, 08:01 PM
I heard of guys going to CAL to get paid to get the 737 type rating then leaving for SWA. Not cool.

What's not cool about it? Hat's off to those that show our crummy management that our pay and benefits absolutely suck.

CALPilotToo
09-07-2007, 08:28 PM
I heard of guys going to CAL to get paid to get the 737 type rating then leaving for SWA. Not cool.

I disagree. It shows supply and demand. Hopefully, CAL management will see the light one day that this 29.00 per hour cost more money than is being saved. Any pilot who can benefit from a decision that benefits them outside of harming another pilot more power to them.

These actions will help bring up first year pay one day.

CALPilotToo
09-07-2007, 08:30 PM
The sad thing is that they're costing a lot of people jobs. I'd hate to have some clown get hired, typed, and then bail, meanwhile my friend was sitting on the sideline trying to get hired. It costs a lot to put a person through training only to have them leave. But, what goes around comes around and these guys could be putting their nuts in a vise grip. This industry is way to small to jump around and not worry about the consequences. Can you imagine going to bat for a friend, they get hired and bail? You'd have zero credibility ever getting another person hired.

You just don't accept the fact you work for a $hit airline that pays $hitty wages. Go sit in front of your wall full of plaques and jerk yourself.

dojetdriver
09-07-2007, 08:56 PM
More good points. Again, NOT slamming any CAL pilots. We pilots (labor) have been sucking management's hind titty since 9/11/01, almost 6 years now. Many have suffered severe career stagnation, reverse movement, or had it canned altogether. Management has been raping us for years with concessions, retirement raiding, etc. Aside from showing up for work on time, being a professional, and getting the plane safely from point A to B safely and as efficiently as we can without bending any metal or hurting anyone. aside from that, WE OWE THEM NOTHING.

Airlines are making money, airlines are taking delivery to replace/expand their fleets, new destinations are being added, profits are being reported.

To the guys that are worried about costing a company money by getting the type then leaving because that is what is best for them, why do you feel this way? If you always wanted work for CAL, or they are your hometown airline and you don't have to commute, good for you. I'm glad that it worked out for you, seriously. You did what you always wanted to do or end up. NOT EVERYBODY IS LIKE YOU. But to be critical of the guys that are leaving is shortsighted. Do you think that these guys owe a company something simply because they hired them, paid for their type, but only wanted to pay them $29/hr the first year and not give any health insurance for half that time? Would it be "cool" if the guy came to CAL with the type already, he just wanted to leave his current gig but always wanted SW and was just hanging out till they called?

Question for you guys that think it's "not cool" to leave. If for some reason, CAL, or anybody else, was to furlough due to some catastrophic event, what is going to make management call you back in seniority order? Give you a hint, it's not the kindness of their hearts or because they think they owe you anything. What do you think they would rather do if they had their way? Call back a guy with 2,3,4,5 years longevity pay rate or tell you tough, and hire some new pilot at the rate of $29/hr? Management would gladly drop the more expensive pilot from the payroll, they would not think twice about helping you out or show any loyalty. The only thing going for you at this point is your CBA, however weak it may be.

Eric Stratton
09-07-2007, 10:45 PM
The sad thing is that they're costing a lot of people jobs. I'd hate to have some clown get hired, typed, and then bail, meanwhile my friend was sitting on the sideline trying to get hired. It costs a lot to put a person through training only to have them leave. But, what goes around comes around and these guys could be putting their nuts in a vise grip. This industry is way to small to jump around and not worry about the consequences. Can you imagine going to bat for a friend, they get hired and bail? You'd have zero credibility ever getting another person hired.

I'm curious why you can't get your friend hired?

What do you think will happen to someone who decides an airline isn't for them and goes somewhere else, get black balled?

Free Flyer
09-10-2007, 06:38 PM
Most of the people that leave go for various reasons, however the deciding factor that I've ran into is simply money. We don't pay well, and they are seeking that almight dollar.

Most of the military guys bail and go to FedEx or UPS, but on the other hand we have a lot of JetBlue guys coming over. It makes no sense, just pick something you like and ride the wave. Every job is going to suck at some time.

P.S. Thanks to all of you guys senior to me who are leaving, I appreciate it :)

A320fumes
09-10-2007, 06:45 PM
Most of the people that leave go for various reasons, however the deciding factor that I've ran into is simply money. We don't pay well, and they are seeking that almight dollar.

Most of the military guys bail and go to FedEx or UPS, but on the other hand we have a lot of JetBlue guys coming over. It makes no sense, just pick something you like and ride the wave. Every job is going to suck at some time.

P.S. Thanks to all of you guys senior to me who are leaving, I appreciate it :)

I'm one of those military guys you speak of. Could have applied to Fedex years ago...didn't. You really don't have a problem with the fact that CAL is a great airline and guys bail? Just wonderring, no harm intended.

Free Flyer
09-11-2007, 12:00 PM
I'm one of those military guys you speak of. Could have applied to Fedex years ago...didn't. You really don't have a problem with the fact that CAL is a great airline and guys bail? Just wonderring, no harm intended.

Don't worry, no harm felt. It doesn't bother me one bit if people leave CAL. People have different motivations for different reasons. What may be good for me may not be for someone else.

One guy in my crashpad just quit this week to go to NWA since he lives in Minneapolis. Crazy if you ask me, but then again, he outweighed commuting vs. quality of life at home. To each his own, and yes he was senior to me and he would have upgraded on the 737 in 2 months.

What personal decisions people make about their future doesn't hurt my feelings whatsoever, even if we work for the same company. Remember one important fact, don't make your job your identity and life will become so uncomplicated you will be surprised. Cheers.

texaspilot76
09-11-2007, 01:31 PM
(They should Hire me with no PIC TURBINE, I cant leave ;)

I don't think they require PIC turbine. I think you can have 500 SIC turbine and be qualified.

Albief15
09-11-2007, 01:46 PM
Movement is good....

If companies have to compete for good employees, that means they should have to increase pay/benefits or accept higher attrition.

Once growth slowed at JB and guys saw they would be FOs for 3-5 years instead of 12-18 months, many have bailed to go to "better" deals as an FO at CAL, DAL, or one of the freight companies. The "cost" of leaving CAL at year 1 pay isn't too high....you may be starting over at DAL (or FDX, whatever...) but your pay goes UP and the subsequent pay raises help out.

Leaving CAL for another Legacy at 2-3 years gets tougher. Among the most junior guys, however, I expect we'll see a lot moving around between DAL, CAL, Airtran, NWA, and JB for the next year or so. Pilots recently hired are making some adjustments now...

For a while, with so few companies interviewing, the choice was "work at CAL/JB/Airtran" or "don't work/stay at your current job". Now with DAL, UAL, NWA, and CAL hiring, along with UPS, I expect we'll see some lateral movement for a while as guys and gals adjust their lives to try to match their best choice. When SWA starts hiring again, or at least draining their pool--we'll see more attrition--this time across all the legacies. I am wondering how many folks will leave a Legacy for Fedex, however, if we are putting new hires into foreign domiciles.

skypine27
09-11-2007, 02:25 PM
For whats its worth (1 cent), my 2 cents...

I was hired at CAL in the beginning of the big hiring wave (Summer of 2005). I was early 30's at the time.

Hired onto the 737 EWR, finished IOE, flew one flight, then was back in school for the 756 EWR. Quit in the winter of 2005 for FedEX.

In that timeframe, I knew of two other CAL fo's with less than 1 year of senority quitting for FedEX, one for UPS, and two for Southwest. Those are just the people I can name by name.

Why'd I leave? It was purely a money thing. The FO payrates at CAL leave alot to be desired. If they had paid 15 dollars an hour more across the FO board, then I would have stayed. If I was on year 3 pay for the 777 making 80 something an hour for working 10 days a month, then I also would have stayed. But with less than 6 months of senority, I made the choice to bail.

I think CAL has the best future out there for a legacy airline. But on the downside, CALs payrates really forced one to bid bigger and/or captain as quick as possible. Doing so "forces" one to live in/around EWR. Thats ok for some, not OK for others.

The next contract will really important for CAL.

Ottopilot
09-11-2007, 02:52 PM
I know a guy that was hired with me, but he left within his first year for RyanAir. Not sure why.

CALFO
09-11-2007, 04:43 PM
CAL F/O pay is less than American, United, NWA and Delta: the latter of the three fresh out of bankruptcy. And the CA pay ain't great. Unless something happens on the new contract or we merge with a strong union carrier, CAL will soon return to the bottom of the heap as other unions recoup their concessions and our guys pick up the companie's open time.

Our pay sucks, but looking at the payscales of the other "Legacy's", it's just about as bad, if not worse everywhere else. All the majors start at $30, with the exception of Delta. If you were to ever get hired at USAir and assigned the E190, it doesn't get much better than $30/hr. I don't know about work rules, etc, etc and would need a true W-2 comparison to say which airline is better, but between all the legacies, I really don't see much difference. Of the discount carriers, JBlue is horrible if you get the E-190, Airtran pays a little more in year one but only tops out at about $80, Virgin (forget about it). That leaves SWA. They are the only passenger carrying airline that pays worth a damn today.

-CALFO

CALFO
09-11-2007, 05:22 PM
I started another post about this issue. I think that the lack of respect at CAL is probably the mitigating factor in the resignations. The class of 1983-85 don't really seem to need respect. I don't know how many times I've heard Captains say "that's just the way the company is" as an excuse for not standing up for the crew. On my first trip after IOE, I flew with a captain and asked her about a line issue, she told me that she was not an instructor and "they should have taught you that on IOE". I had a lot more PIC turbine time than she but couldn't help feel sorry for her. No ambition or understanding about Captain's authority or privilege. A strong leader/captain can overcome this resignation, but all can't. Respect is a big problem at CAL. Hope we can fix that.

Based on my experience as an FO for the last 18 mos., I would say that this Captain is the exception. I have flown with a lot of great Captains.

luv757
09-12-2007, 07:25 AM
Based on my experience as an FO for the last 18 mos., I would say that this Captain is the exception. I have flown with a lot of great Captains.

Ditto here however I think the bulk of the a-holes are on the bigger stuff or have moved on. All of the 737 captains I have flown with have been great to flat out awesome guys to go flying with.

On another note, has everyone filled out their CALPA surveys? Even if you think it won't make a difference it takes 10 minutes of your time to tell them what is most important to you to see fixed on the next contract and what you think the minimum pay rates should be over current ones. It is alot easier to ***** when you make your voice heard

Lifeisgood
09-12-2007, 08:15 AM
One guy in my crashpad just quit this week to go to NWA since he lives in Minneapolis. Crazy if you ask me, but then again, he outweighed commuting vs. quality of life at home. To each his own, and yes he was senior to me and he would have upgraded on the 737 in 2 months.



I heard a 20 year Captain left CAL last year for Southwest. He commuted out of ORD for the past 25 years (2 airlines), got competely burned out, quit CAL, now based in MDW and is (quote) "happy as a clam".

ewrbasedpilot
09-12-2007, 08:22 AM
I heard a 20 year Captain left CAL last year for Southwest. He commuted out of ORD for the past 25 years (2 airlines), got competely burned out, quit CAL, now based in MDW and is (quote) "happy as a clam".

I would really find that hard to believe. With his seniority on the 737, he could've practically lived at home and made good money doing it. I find going to the bottom of the seniority list and starting all over hard to believe after 20years. Then again, some people never surprise me with what they'll do.:rolleyes:

Flyby1206
09-12-2007, 08:25 AM
The first year pay at all majors is terrible. Considering the years of experience and training that is required to meet the minimums the pay should START at what RJ CAs make. CAL has hired so many recently because they are willing to live in base, but that supply is drying up. If I was going to have to commute, why not commute somewhere like FedEx/SWA/etc and make a much better paycheck (and a lot easier than commuting into EWR).

ewrbasedpilot
09-12-2007, 08:31 AM
I think a lot of pilots make decisions based on the almighty dollar. This comes back to bite a LOT of them. What were once the best carriers paying the best money, are the worst, barely surviving or totally gone. If you love your job, then money is important, but not THAT important. I flew night freight, and it really takes away a lot of your life (aging prematurely). Sure the money is great, but if it puts you in an early grave or you spend half your life trying to get back to a "day life", what have you accomplished, other than making a lot of money for someone else to enjoy? CAL is a great airline to work for. Sure we need a better contract, better pay and benefits, and better QOL, but that'll come. I'm happy where I'm at. I know a few UAL pilots on our seniority list that have resigned their UAL seniority, and a few AA and NWA pilots who've done the same. All in all, the best carrier is the one who'll hire you and give you a paycheck. Everyone can't work for FEDEX, UPS, CAL, DAL, etc.......... JMHO

757Driver
09-12-2007, 01:14 PM
I heard a 20 year Captain left CAL last year for Southwest. He commuted out of ORD for the past 25 years (2 airlines), got competely burned out, quit CAL, now based in MDW and is (quote) "happy as a clam".

Actually it was 2 of our 15 year guys and they are starting to regret it.

A320fumes
12-29-2007, 10:07 AM
I flew with a captain the last week that strongly stated that CAL, by
default, has the best work rules in the industry.............:confused:. I told him that he should find a new crack dealer because his current one obviously did not have his best interest in mind. Through my buds in the guard and Cal being my 3rd airline, I knew that we have the worst of all majors and have historically seemed to accept this. So the captain's comments disturbed but didn't surprise me. With the current negotiations at hand, I was wondering if the new xjet guys, since they'll be the largest group represented when the T/A comes up, had better work-rules if any at all. I'm hoping so, I know many regionals with stronger unions and better work-rules and respect than we have @ CAL.

JoeyMeatballs
12-29-2007, 10:35 AM
I flew with a captain the last week that strongly stated that CAL, by
default, has the best work rules in the industry.............:confused:. I told him that he should find a new crack dealer because his current one obviously did not have his best interest in mind. Through my buds in the guard and Cal being my 3rd airline, I knew that we have the worst of all majors and have historically seemed to accept this. So the captain's comments disturbed but didn't surprise me. With the current negotiations at hand, I was wondering if the new xjet guys, since they'll be the largest group represented when the T/A comes up, had better work-rules if any at all. I'm hoping so, I know many regionals with stronger unions and better work-rules and respect than we have @ CAL.

I agree, its sad when a regional like XJT has better, far better work rules then a major such as CAL

texaspilot76
12-29-2007, 02:30 PM
Nice holiday outfit SAAB.

CALPilotToo
12-29-2007, 10:00 PM
I heard a 20 year Captain left CAL last year for Southwest. He commuted out of ORD for the past 25 years (2 airlines), got competely burned out, quit CAL, now based in MDW and is (quote) "happy as a clam".

Wrong. We had a pilot leave for SWA for MDW 2 years ago and he was a 1994 transition guy who was hired at Bar Harbor in 1989. He would now be a CA at CAL but he was not when he left and the reasons he left was because he thought the grass was greener without commuting. I have spoken with him and he regrets the move overall now. But is happy at SWA. Just realizes he was not unhappy here is all.

We also had a 1990 hire leave to go to SWA around the same time and he is happy to not have to commute. He also left FedEx in 1996 and came back to CAL in 1998 after taking a leave in 1994 thiking CAL was not going to make it from the CAL Lite debacle.

flyover
12-30-2007, 08:31 AM
I agree, its sad when a regional like XJT has better, far better work rules then a major such as CAL

Another reason most of the current XJT Captains would never leave for CAL. Most of the captains I know at XJT are awaiting classes at SWA, NWA, and Delta. Some are waiting for FedEX and UPS as well. Some would rather stay and gamble at XJT than work for CAL. I'm leaving for NWA for day 1 health insurance, better contract, a pilot group that is ticked off and will get their money back, and to live in base. Besides CAL has already hired so many new qualified pilots and XJT FOs already that it is too late and upgrade will be forever since age 65.

reCALcitrant
12-30-2007, 12:15 PM
The sad thing is that they're costing a lot of people jobs. I'd hate to have some clown get hired, typed, and then bail, meanwhile my friend was sitting on the sideline trying to get hired. It costs a lot to put a person through training only to have them leave. But, what goes around comes around and these guys could be putting their nuts in a vise grip. This industry is way to small to jump around and not worry about the consequences. Can you imagine going to bat for a friend, they get hired and bail? You'd have zero credibility ever getting another person hired.


Do you think management has a problem going somewhere else when they get a better offer. This is the problem with the entire industry. So, if Fedex came to you and said we'll pay you double what your making now and you can keep your seniority, I am sure your loyalty would take over and you would turn down the offer. Let's not throw stones at people looking to improve their positions. BTW, I intend to stay at CAL. I like the hub, flying, and 99% of the people. Not everybody is in my boat though.

reCALcitrant
12-30-2007, 12:21 PM
For whats its worth (1 cent), my 2 cents...

I was hired at CAL in the beginning of the big hiring wave (Summer of 2005). I was early 30's at the time.

Hired onto the 737 EWR, finished IOE, flew one flight, then was back in school for the 756 EWR. Quit in the winter of 2005 for FedEX.

In that timeframe, I knew of two other CAL fo's with less than 1 year of senority quitting for FedEX, one for UPS, and two for Southwest. Those are just the people I can name by name.

Why'd I leave? It was purely a money thing. The FO payrates at CAL leave alot to be desired. If they had paid 15 dollars an hour more across the FO board, then I would have stayed. If I was on year 3 pay for the 777 making 80 something an hour for working 10 days a month, then I also would have stayed. But with less than 6 months of senority, I made the choice to bail.

I think CAL has the best future out there for a legacy airline. But on the downside, CALs payrates really forced one to bid bigger and/or captain as quick as possible. Doing so "forces" one to live in/around EWR. Thats ok for some, not OK for others.

The next contract will really important for CAL.

Point proven. Pay competitive and people will stay. I agree with your comment on the next contract. It will make or break our pilot group and how many guys leave for other places.

JoeyMeatballs
12-30-2007, 12:45 PM
Point proven. Pay competitive and people will stay. I agree with your comment on the next contract. It will make or break our pilot group and how many guys leave for other places.

Don't forget it is a lot cheaper for the company to pay the entire 1st year F/O's 30/hr then it is to train someone have them bail and re-train someone else to replace the F/O's that leave for better pay etc.............. I doubt management cares all that much if people bail, if they did they would change the 1st year pay as well as there garbage health insurance, or lack there off, there are thousands of folks waiting in line to get on with CAL

A320fumes
12-30-2007, 02:38 PM
Don't forget it is a lot cheaper for the company to pay the entire 1st year F/O's 30/hr then it is to train someone have them bail and re-train someone else to replace the F/O's that leave for better pay etc.............. I doubt management cares all that much if people bail, if they did they would change the 1st year pay as well as there garbage health insurance, or lack there off, there are thousands of folks waiting in line to get on with CAL

The 29$/hr is not the issue. CAL management has always been able to get away with things that their competition couldn't because of CAL's weak and divided employee groups and the scabs who are for the most part unemployable at other majors. Management rightfully thinks that a professional pilot who has paid close to 100k for training or who has millions of dollars of military training is stupid and therefore easily managed if they will work for 29k and no health insurance. CAL management is smart but the gravy train is slowing. I foresee a TA that grossly undermines the new-hires presented by the NC who will try to sell it so that they can secure positions in management, review CAL ALPA history. Then I expect to see mass revolt of new-hires and a new NC with junior pilot representation, reference "killer B's" of AA. If consolidation occurs before the new TA, pilots of any other major airlines will not work under the conditions @ CAL and will give management a taste of what every other airline management has had to deal with. As a "new-hire" I am not willing to work more for less as has been the case @ CAL since 1981. Unfortunately, a strike is not an option because real airline pilots @ other carriers will not be willing to pay strike wages to the scabs we have on the property, but strikes are so 20th century anyhow. CAL is not what I expected it to be and I'm very disappointed with our pilot group's solidarity. I don't mean to trash the many good guys @ CAL who have always wanted to make CAL a better place for pilots but just didn't have the support. I think you have the support you needed now. Gonna try to launch a survey to see if I'm alone.

757Driver
12-30-2007, 06:12 PM
The 29$/hr is not the issue. CAL management has always been able to get away with things that their competition couldn't because of CAL's weak and divided employee groups and the scabs who are for the most part unemployable at other majors. Management rightfully thinks that a professional pilot who has paid close to 100k for training or who has millions of dollars of military training is stupid and therefore easily managed if they will work for 29k and no health insurance. CAL management is smart but the gravy train is slowing. I foresee a TA that grossly undermines the new-hires presented by the NC who will try to sell it so that they can secure positions in management, review CAL ALPA history. Then I expect to see mass revolt of new-hires and a new NC with junior pilot representation, reference "killer B's" of AA. If consolidation occurs before the new TA, pilots of any other major airlines will not work under the conditions @ CAL and will give management a taste of what every other airline management has had to deal with. As a "new-hire" I am not willing to work more for less as has been the case @ CAL since 1981. Unfortunately, a strike is not an option because real airline pilots @ other carriers will not be willing to pay strike wages to the scabs we have on the property, but strikes are so 20th century anyhow. CAL is not what I expected it to be and I'm very disappointed with our pilot group's solidarity. I don't mean to trash the many good guys @ CAL who have always wanted to make CAL a better place for pilots but just didn't have the support. I think you have the support you needed now. Gonna try to launch a survey to see if I'm alone.


Don't sell us pre '98 hires down the road yet.

I will absolutely be voting No if the next contract doesn't address 1-5 year pay rates and health insurance concerns, (I've voted No for each and every single one of the POS ones from previous years). You have a lot more sympathy than you think from most of your current N/C people and they are very aware that this is a huge problem.

We're all in this together and we damn well better treat the future new-hires with just as much respect as the #1 guy on the list.

jdt30
12-30-2007, 08:17 PM
A320fumes,
I'm with you 100%. I'm disgusted with the apathy among our pilot group. Put together a survey I'm interested.

A320fumes
12-31-2007, 02:09 AM
Don't sell us pre '98 hires down the road yet.



Wouldn't dream of it, we'll need your help and guidance. It's just a little hard when you fly with a guy who is more ****ed off that guys are making captain in 2 years than he is about the insurance issue. I've flown with a lot of great guys @ CAL, but I've flown with some real tools too, you know who they are. The conditions we've accepted are disgusting. The lack of respect ab horrible. It's time management learned that you get what you pay for.

757Driver
12-31-2007, 05:42 AM
Wouldn't dream of it, we'll need your help and guidance. It's just a little hard when you fly with a guy who is more ****ed off that guys are making captain in 2 years than he is about the insurance issue. I've flown with a lot of great guys @ CAL, but I've flown with some real tools too, you know who they are. The conditions we've accepted are disgusting. The lack of respect ab horrible. It's time management learned that you get what you pay for.

My friend, I'm past ready to do whatever it takes to get an acceptable contract. As you said, an exceptionally high amount of senior Pilots here have absolutely no self-worth and will accept the few crumbs thrown at them year after year.

IMO they are the most pathetic bunch of Stockholm Syndrome suffering aviators out there and drag us down year after year. Its show-time here at CAL and I'm hoping that each and every guy we've hired since '97 can help rally the troops and say enough's enough.

determined2fly
01-09-2008, 05:29 AM
I was older than that. What's the risk? Do younger people have no risk?

hey...its me again!you CAL pilots are starting to worry me. Im 32 with just a PPL. Does that diminish my chances?the hold up is my degree, i went back to school last year to complete before i further my training. Thanks again.:D

Is flying for CAL really that bad? do any of you guys that work there still enjoy flying?

Ottopilot
01-09-2008, 07:26 AM
CAL is a great place to work and I love flying here. Do not judge CAL based on what you read here or the CAL pilots on here. CAL does need improvements made in lots of areas of the piots contract, but that is coming. I was 39 when I was hired at CAL.

A320fumes
01-09-2008, 03:18 PM
CAL is a great place to work and I love flying here. Do not judge CAL based on what you read here or the CAL pilots on here. CAL does need improvements made in lots of areas of the piots contract, but that is coming. I was 39 when I was hired at CAL.


Ditto:

With all of my gripes, I've never filled out a FDX, UPS or SWA application because I like the work @ CAL. No offense to the aforementioned. My major problem is with our nut-less pilot group. Great guys who've been beat up by over 20 years scab collusion with the company. 1 of 2 things will remedy this. 1) Less desirable. A merger with any other major; every major has a union stronger than Cal's. 2) Almost 2000 disappointed & slightly disgruntled new-hires on the property when the new TA comes to a vote.


A320fumes,
I'm with you 100%. I'm disgusted with the apathy among our pilot group. Put together a survey I'm interested.

I PM'd a moderator with how to start the survey. No response yet.

LifeNtheFstLne
01-15-2008, 02:14 PM
CAL forums are awfully quiet despite all this merger mania swirling around. At least the hiring continues! I didn't even hear any good rumors in the crew room this week. *poke* *poke*

Roadking
01-15-2008, 08:12 PM
I've got a question coming from a new-hire: how do we realistically predict what we're gonna make? We all know the first year is $31 an hour and the guarantee is 72 hours. How many hours a month are we really gonna fly? And how much reserve will we get in addition to that? I can't live on 27K even if only for a year. Hopefully I'm doing the math wrong...

Somebody throw out a basic formula here.

rk772
01-15-2008, 08:40 PM
I've got a question coming from a new-hire: how do we realistically predict what we're gonna make? We all know the first year is $31 an hour and the guarantee is 72 hours. How many hours a month are we really gonna fly? And how much reserve will we get in addition to that? I can't live on 27K even if only for a year. Hopefully I'm doing the math wrong...

Somebody throw out a basic formula here.

I was hired the first week of March 2007. I grossed $23,100.02 for my 10 months of work in 2007. I spent the entire time on B reserve and only exceeded my 76 hour guarantee twice. I'm really looking forward to March so I can get my pay bump. With the combination of holding a line now and the $56 an hour, I should make twice this in 2008.
I'm just glad my wife has a good job.
She actually paid more in taxes in 2007 than I made. How SAD:(

RCA01
01-15-2008, 09:22 PM
Well that about makes me sick. I made more than $23k year one regional. And grossed $44k for 10 months as a first year Citation FO.
I would take a CAL job given the long term prospects. Just hard to believe year one is so deplorable.

Riddler
01-16-2008, 03:30 AM
I was hired the first week of March 2007. I grossed $23,100.02 for my 10 months of work in 2007. I spent the entire time on B reserve and only exceeded my 76 hour guarantee twice. I'm really looking forward to March so I can get my pay bump. With the combination of holding a line now and the $56 an hour, I should make twice this in 2008.
I'm just glad my wife has a good job.
She actually paid more in taxes in 2007 than I made. How SAD:(

I thought guys were on reserve for a few weeks/months and not the entire year. Was that your choice to sit reserve?

jdt30
01-16-2008, 04:28 AM
I thought guys were on reserve for a few weeks/months and not the entire year. Was that your choice to sit reserve?


When hired I went to EWR and sat reserve for 2 months. My buddy bid IAH and sat reserve for about 8-10 months. First year pay is horrible, second year pay through year five is nothing to brag about. As recent new hires lets make sure we all get involved and do something about it.

rk772
01-16-2008, 05:32 AM
I thought guys were on reserve for a few weeks/months and not the entire year. Was that your choice to sit reserve?

EWR reserve is less than a month. I hit the line in IAH right before the summer slow-down and sat reserve Through Dec. (Not by choice) I held a line for the first time this month.

First year pay is horrible, second year pay through year five is nothing to brag about. As recent new hires lets make sure we all get involved and do something about it.

Trust me, I'm not bragging about it. It will be an improvement from first year but it's still not close to what it should be. I hope there are enough new guys and galls on property to turn things around during contract 08 negotiations.

jdt30
01-16-2008, 05:59 AM
rk772,
I didn't mean that as a shot at you, man I remember the relief from going from 1st to 2nd year pay. From ramen noodles to frozen pizzas.:D

flybynuts
01-16-2008, 07:56 AM
[quote=rk772;300836]EWR reserve is less than a month. I hit the line in IAH right before the summer slow-down and sat reserve Through Dec. (Not by choice) I held a line for the first time this month.


How is the line in IAH treating you? Was it worth the pain?

BTW...when did you actually get IAH based? I am starting there in March and hope I am not on the same timeline.

jdt30
01-16-2008, 08:11 AM
[quote=rk772;300836]

How is the line in IAH treating you? Was it worth the pain?

BTW...when did you actually get IAH based? I am starting there in March and hope I am not on the same timeline.

Congrats on being hired, but yes you are going to be stuck in IAH, or EWR on reserve for a while. The good news is that they are going to continue hiring so the movement will continue in the fall, hopefully.

rk772
01-16-2008, 12:32 PM
[
How is the line in IAH treating you? Was it worth the pain?

BTW...when did you actually get IAH based? I am starting there in March and hope I am not on the same time-line.

I am about a 25 minute drive to IAH. Since I don't commute, reserve wasn't that bad.
I was initially given EWR when training started but was awarded IAH a month later. My transfer had a July 1st effective date. After completing IOE, I sat reserve EWR for the last 2 weeks of May. I held a EWR line for June and then went back on reserve in IAH in July (12 days off.)
My line for Jan. has 15 days off and some good overnights. I was pretty pleased. I could probably do better if I understood PBS. I wish new-hire training had included a 2 day ground school on computer programing (IE PBS)

LifeNtheFstLne
01-16-2008, 12:49 PM
Amen to that. Anyone had luck doing aggressive pick up as a B reserve rather than sitting at the crashpad or rolling the dice from home? EWR is just an unpredictable commute on short call this time of year...

flybynuts
01-16-2008, 07:31 PM
Amen to that. Anyone had luck doing aggressive pick up as a B reserve rather than sitting at the crashpad or rolling the dice from home? EWR is just an unpredictable commute on short call this time of year...


From what I am seeing, the only real leverage you have to pick up aggresively is to still be under your 100hrs and/or you are losing a qual if you don't fly. The other part is getting a good scheduler that you "click" with and he/she hooks you up. That is what I have observed.

flybynuts
01-16-2008, 07:35 PM
I am about a 25 minute drive to IAH. Since I don't commute, reserve wasn't that bad.
I was initially given EWR when training started but was awarded IAH a month later. My transfer had a July 1st effective date. After completing IOE, I sat reserve EWR for the last 2 weeks of May. I held a EWR line for June and then went back on reserve in IAH in July (12 days off.)
My line for Jan. has 15 days off and some good overnights. I was pretty pleased. I could probably do better if I understood PBS. I wish new-hire training had included a 2 day ground school on computer programing (IE PBS)

Living in base is sweet. I don't look forward to the 12 days again. Glad to see that you are getting a good skd now.

I finally completed my critique of training, yes I did it, and that was a big hit I gave them. Giving us a solid base in PBS is critical isf they want converts of belief. I heard a wise man (cartoon) say "knowing is half the battle."

ewrbasedpilot
01-17-2008, 07:41 AM
.............Giving us a solid base in PBS is critical isf they want converts of belief. I heard a wise man (cartoon) say "knowing is half the battle."


They probably don't want to waste much time on PBS since there's discussion of going back to the old paper bidding which most of the pilots would rather have. PBS is general math turned into quantum physics. :confused:

LifeNtheFstLne
01-17-2008, 04:26 PM
Hey fellow CAL people: With this 'flush' bid so to speak going on, looks like I'd be on reserve now for a long time on the 756. Have any of you made the jump from 756 back to 737? It's something I'm seriously considering in order to have a line now that the aircraft lock is lifted by this new bid. I'm sure lots will jump over to the 756 keeping me junior. I do not enjoy the back side of the clock oceanic stuff with my commute and am willing to live with a few dollars less per hour... I can always bid back up to wider later on. Thoughts? I haven't done the EWR73 so I have nothing to base my decision on, so genuine advice would be greatly appreciated.



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