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View Full Version : Which LCC to avoid


taylorjets
09-13-2007, 04:48 PM
I am preparing a presentation and would like the opinion of all of you. What LCC that is currently hiring would you avoid the most and why? Your choices are:

SWA, Virgin America, Spirit, Jet Blue, and Skybus

Thanks in advance

Tjets


ERJ135
09-13-2007, 04:51 PM
Skybus simply because of salary. I believe they pay the least. Unless they pony up the dough I am not interested.:cool:

UnlimitedAkro
09-13-2007, 05:03 PM
Skybus is the worst.

1. Dont want to dress like a forest ranger instead of a pilot
2. Dont want to pay for drinks on the flights i am working
3. Dont want to carry charts around in a backpack that I am wearing on my back in my forest ranger uniform
4. Skybus uses no jetbridges. Stairs rain or shine or snow or ice.
5. "Are you seriously making us pay for this drink? We are flying this airplane.... this is nuts! sorry... but you have to pay for those nuts.


embatp
09-13-2007, 06:30 PM
how about airtran? we just had a weird deal with a few "t/a"s, recalled the prez and v.p. of the union, had a guy fired recently for writing up too many mx issues, and the lead guy in the recall effort and t/a rebuttal got fired...i think this is one place that should be avoided...

taylorjets
09-13-2007, 06:40 PM
how about airtran? we just had a weird deal with a few "t/a"s, recalled the prez and v.p. of the union, had a guy fired recently for writing up too many mx issues, and the lead guy in the recall effort and t/a rebuttal got fired...i think this is one place that should be avoided...

Good point...

Ottopilot
09-13-2007, 07:06 PM
All of the above.

LCC's don't help the industry.

Spartan07
09-13-2007, 08:57 PM
All of the above.

LCC's don't help the industry.

Even SWA? I mean, they're cheap but they pay very well and treat their employees like... *gasp* human beings! From everything I have seen, heard, and experienced SWA treats their pilots and other employees way better than the legacies. I might even go so far as to say better than pre-9/11 legacies.

P.S - Skybus is the worst in my eyes, but something about Virgin makes me uneasy, being a foreign airline that found a loophole in our laws and all.

RobLAX
09-13-2007, 09:08 PM
To me it is Skybus, Air Tran and Virgin. There is nothing to say about Skybus. The pay, uniforms and policies are a joke just like the airline. What airlines charges for a soda? Next it is a tie between Air Tran and Virgin. Virgin upgrade is based on how much butt kissing you do. Air Tran is Valujet...enough said. I know 2 people personally that were hired there and they busted almost every checkride at the regional level.

pilotss
09-14-2007, 01:54 AM
I'd have to say that instability and wages are my biggest factors. I could care less if I am a captain in 2 months but will you be around in 2 years? And in those two years will I dig a hole in my bank account for the prestige of being a captain? Absolutely not. I can't afford to live in SFO for that kind of money and I don't commute, it takes years off your life. At 30 something I need to start hitting the black ink side of this industry instead of the other way around.

Skybus. Cheap ass company.

Whale Pilot
09-14-2007, 02:13 AM
All of the above.

LCC's don't help the industry.


I'll second that notion. Here Here!

Whale

Whale Pilot
09-14-2007, 02:14 AM
Even SWA? I mean, they're cheap but they pay very well and treat their employees like... *gasp* human beings! From everything I have seen, heard, and experienced SWA treats their pilots and other employees way better than the legacies. I might even go so far as to say better than pre-9/11 legacies.

P.S - Skybus is the worst in my eyes, but something about Virgin makes me uneasy, being a foreign airline that found a loophole in our laws and all.


Yes, all LCC's are responsible for the pay and our "status" being diminished to nothing more than a bus driver. No offense Airbus guys....

Whale

Mach 84
09-14-2007, 04:52 AM
pilotss has the right answer. Pilots look at all the obvious surface issues of flying for a certain airline but often foget to check the balance sheet.

Check the debt/equity ratio that an airline has and consider long term job security while you are doing that. I recall a couple of guys leaving SWA in 2000 and 2001 for UAL and then after 9-11 calling SWA in near tears asking if they could come back. (They were told they could re-apply). SWA's debt/equity ratio is below 30% while many other airlines, INCLUDING those who recently went thru bankruptcy are over levereged with debt/equity ratios of over 100%.

JohnnyCochran
09-14-2007, 06:11 AM
In regards to LLC's, I wish you would have put US Airways in there for polling.

Here's a question......Who does/does not want to work at Airways and why :).....this should be interesting

Saabstory
09-14-2007, 02:45 PM
To me it is Skybus, Air Tran and Virgin. There is nothing to say about Skybus. The pay, uniforms and policies are a joke just like the airline. What airlines charges for a soda? Next it is a tie between Air Tran and Virgin. Virgin upgrade is based on how much butt kissing you do. Air Tran is Valujet...enough said. I know 2 people personally that were hired there and they busted almost every checkride at the regional level.

Not true...popular urban myth. There is no such "merit based" upgrade policy.

BeenThere
09-14-2007, 03:07 PM
how about airtran? we just had a weird deal with a few "t/a"s, recalled the prez and v.p. of the union, had a guy fired recently for writing up too many mx issues, and the lead guy in the recall effort and t/a rebuttal got fired...i think this is one place that should be avoided...

Kolski's still there, huh? A Lorenzo clone to the end. Screwed up every airline he was ever involved with. What an a**.

Newryflyer
09-14-2007, 03:56 PM
All of the above.

LCC's don't help the industry.


Neither does outsourcing on every regional in the nation but you seem to conveniently forget to mention that!!!

rickair7777
09-14-2007, 04:02 PM
So many choices, but I only get to pick one?

Skybus it is then...the whole thing about paying flight attendants by commission put them over the top.

VA would be #2...as an American, I prefer to get raped by our own red-blooded American unscrupulous scumbag managers. No need to import foreign unscrupulous scumbag managers.

captjns
09-15-2007, 06:40 AM
Yes, all LCC's are responsible for the pay and our "status" being diminished to nothing more than a bus driver. No offense Airbus guys....


Wrong!!! its every pilot from every airline, be it union or non-union, who rolled over and played dead by accepting lower pay, reduced benefits and reduction in QOL. Thats who is responsible for your status being diminished. I don't think that the officers and directors of Skybus, Virgin America, nor Airtran collectively conspired on a Monday morning and to influence the managment of AA, UAL, DAL or NWA to get them in line on salary and benefit issues. Afterall, I haven't seen salaries increased, nor retirement benefits restored for the legacy boys.

mulcher
09-15-2007, 08:34 AM
Stybus then VA for all the above reasons.

DLAJ77
09-15-2007, 08:55 AM
To me it is Skybus, Air Tran and Virgin. There is nothing to say about Skybus. The pay, uniforms and policies are a joke just like the airline. What airlines charges for a soda? Next it is a tie between Air Tran and Virgin. Virgin upgrade is based on how much butt kissing you do. Air Tran is Valujet...enough said. I know 2 people personally that were hired there and they busted almost every checkride at the regional level.

airtan is valuejet??? who cares...who do you fly for that is so much better that airtran.

SkyHigh
09-15-2007, 10:36 PM
SkyBus really doesn't belong in this poll since they are a self described Ultra Low Cost Carrier and not a mere LCC.

They are the first of the next generation of companies that will drag our industry to new lows. In 15 years pilots will have to provide for their own hotel rooms.


Skyhigh

SkyHigh
09-15-2007, 10:39 PM
At this point in the evolution of the airline industry it might be prudent to choose one of the worst LCC's since they most likely will be around in 20 years.

Skybus

Allegiant

City Airlines




SkyHigh

Oldfreightdawg
09-16-2007, 05:26 AM
At this point in the evolution of the airline industry it might be prudent to choose one of the worst LCC's since they most likely will be around in 20 years.

Skybus

Allegiant

City Airlines




SkyHigh

And they will have pilotless airplanes too...just kidding:D

I've never heard of City. My vote is still out on Skybus. VA I'm not so worried about, if Carty does the same fine job he did at AA, they'll be gone as well. After all there are more out of business airlines that used cheap labor than otherwise.

SkyHigh
09-16-2007, 06:31 AM
And they will have pilotless airplanes too...just kidding:D

I've never heard of City. My vote is still out on Skybus. VA I'm not so worried about, if Carty does the same fine job he did at AA, they'll be gone as well. After all there are more out of business airlines that used cheap labor than otherwise.

Every airline was once a start up that used cheap labor.

It use to be that eventually a union would come on the property and would begin to bump the wages up. Those days are long gone. The way to win now is is start out as cheap and to remain as such.

City Airlines is a fictional company referred to on the comedy central show South Park. It is operated by a single person who appears to own a Cessna 172.

SkyHigh

shiftwork
09-16-2007, 07:40 AM
I guess I can hold my chin a little higher being Spirit is also an ULCC:o and only has 2 votes as of this posting; tied with SWA:confused:

On a side note (not bragging): They payed for the hotel and van ride for the interview, pay at training w/ per diem (although it was not much) payed for my type on the "bus", insurance after 90 days, 150% open time, 200% JA,...... Some good and some bad..... just like about every place now a days:rolleyes:

taylorjets
09-16-2007, 12:18 PM
I guess I can hold my chin a little higher being Spirit is also an ULCC:o and only has 2 votes as of this posting; tied with SWA:confused:

On a side note (not bragging): They payed for the hotel and van ride for the interview, pay at training w/ per diem (although it was not much) payed for my type on the "bus", insurance after 90 days, 150% open time, 200% JA,...... Some good and some bad..... just like about every place now a days:rolleyes:

When do you head to FLL Brek?

shiftwork
09-16-2007, 12:38 PM
Oct and glad to be there:rolleyes:

seaav8tor
09-21-2007, 09:52 PM
Wrong!!! its every pilot from every airline, be it union or non-union, who rolled over and played dead by accepting lower pay, reduced benefits and reduction in QOL. Thats who is responsible for your status being diminished. I don't think that the officers and directors of Skybus, Virgin America, nor Airtran collectively conspired on a Monday morning and to influence the managment of AA, UAL, DAL or NWA to get them in line on salary and benefit issues. Afterall, I haven't seen salaries increased, nor retirement benefits restored for the legacy boys.

I agree with the first part 100%.

I do not agree with the second part. If you could be a fly on the wall for a few days here:

http://www.aircon.org/what_is_aircon/index.htm
http://www.aircon.org/members/index.htm

I know you would do a 180.

Foxcow
09-21-2007, 10:41 PM
Should SWA even be in the poll? They have good workrules, great equipment, progressive thinking, a good company culture, great pay, safe, and continuously profitable because of all of the above and not at the expense of their employees.

Shrek
09-21-2007, 11:04 PM
How do you become the highest paid narrowbody pilots? Why by undercutting the industry until the rest are below you.

mulcher
09-21-2007, 11:36 PM
So why arent the rest even close the SWA payrates then?

captjns
09-22-2007, 12:53 AM
I have yet to meet an unhappy SWA pilot relating to pay and benefits. You can't put them in the same category as JB, AT, SB, VA... etal. Can you believe it... that SWA was the lowest paid pilots in the industry when they started out 30 some years ago? Now look at their pay and benefits versus UAL, NWA, DAL, USAir... etal... the group who used to look down their noses at SWA crews. GO SWA!!!! and don't look back!!!!

seaav8tor
09-22-2007, 01:23 AM
So why arent the rest even close the SWA payrates then?

Lower expectation pilots=Lower pay

In the current mindset of AIRCON "We have a whole lot more we can squeeze out of pilot labor”... Lower the bar, NextGen ATC, Automation, MPL.

Mindset of pilot labor... It's cyclical; it will come back, Pilot Shortage!

I want to be the glass is half full guy but, this reality where highly compensated technical skills get replaced by technology has occurred over and over again in many fields over the last 100 years. If you have been at this 20 years and you're 45+ you're past V1. Too late to retool and perhaps enough ok jobs remaining to chase before it's all gone. All good things must come to an end. If you're young, love to fly, the job will be there for at least one more generation but the money is just a memory.

Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. There are many successful professional pilots today that are not happy.:(

Don't be one of them.:rolleyes:

Be happy. :)

Roper92
09-22-2007, 05:23 AM
Has anyone found any photos of the Skybus uniforms yet??

ExperimentalAB
09-22-2007, 05:41 AM
I agree with the several posts here that question the validity of SWA being on this list...They're easily the number one U.S. Carrier, and have been for a long-while now.

Now for SKYBUS...LoL I'm trying not to get started. What a joke of an Airline - and these guys actually FLY those busses for peanuts?? Oh wait - I'm sorry - they have to PAY for those peanuts.

Now all they need w/those uniforms are some Smokey the Bear Hats to complete the Image!

SkyBus embarrasses me as a Pilot!

Shrek
09-22-2007, 06:00 AM
So why arent the rest even close the SWA payrates then?

Don't get me wrong..........they invented the segment and have changed aviation for good in my opinion. Their treatment of labor is good and have a great product every time I have ridden them.

But in the pay department they have not helped to raise "the bar". If you figure the average rate of inflation to the rates of 20 years ago then y'all have not gotten a raise. BUT, in your defense, the legacies gave away (or MGT stolen away in bancruptcies) all their benefits and QOL to be UNDER your rates. Time will tell if they actually have the moxie to "Take it Back".

captjns
09-23-2007, 12:26 AM
If one is talking about carriers with low pay and no benefits, how would you categorize some of the legacy carriers that did away with retirement benefits, reduced pay, less than pleasent working conditions, and attracting the same "greyhound bus passengers" to fill their seats too? Seems these carriers have to raise their own bar to come up to SWA's standards. Are they not included in the low pay category because they fly larger aircraft, and fly internationally?



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