Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




MikeB525
09-16-2007, 07:45 PM
Hi all,

Ok, so today I completed my provate glider checkride at Somerset airport (KSMQ) in New Jersey. I need to ask some air traffic controllers and NYC area airline pilots about the airspace and routing of jetliners through the area of Solberg (SBJ) VOR.

KSMQ and SBJ are outside the NY Class B. About 5 miles east starts the Class B, 3000 to 7000. We know SBJ is an waypoint on the approach sequence for aircraft arriving from the south and west, and aircraft making the westbound turn after departing EWR frequently come near.

But we've noticed jetliners coming very low over the area of SBJ, sometimes as little as 3000 going into EWR. Does anybody know why jetliners are being vectored so low outside the Class B? Hows does ATC decide how low to bring the aircraft, and how fast to fly them? I know one reason is because RJ's will often land 11 at EWR, and will come over SBJ at about 3000 to join final.

We recently had a vistor to the glider operation whose a captain at XJet. He says when they come through that area they're totally heads down and not paying a bit of attention out the windows.

Can anyone offer any insight? In general, for you pilots that are EWR/LGA/JFK based, or operate at those airports very frequently, please be aware of glider ops 5000 and below INVOF SBJ on weekends and occasionaly weekday evenings.

Thanks guys. We're constantly looking for you while we're thermalling. Fly safe.


Slice
09-16-2007, 08:06 PM
Hi all,

Ok, so today I completed my provate glider checkride at Somerset airport (KSMQ) in New Jersey. I need to ask some air traffic controllers and NYC area airline pilots about the airspace and routing of jetliners through the area of Solberg (SBJ) VOR.

KSMQ and SBJ are outside the NY Class B. About 5 miles east starts the Class B, 3000 to 7000. We know SBJ is an waypoint on the approach sequence for aircraft arriving from the south and west, and aircraft making the westbound turn after departing EWR frequently come near.

But we've noticed jetliners coming very low over the area of SBJ, sometimes as little as 3000 going into EWR. Does anybody know why jetliners are being vectored so low outside the Class B? Hows does ATC decide how low to bring the aircraft, and how fast to fly them? I know one reason is because RJ's will often land 11 at EWR, and will come over SBJ at about 3000 to join final.

We recently had a vistor to the glider operation whose a captain at XJet. He says when they come through that area they're totally heads down and not paying a bit of attention out the windows.

Can anyone offer any insight? In general, for you pilots that are EWR/LGA/JFK based, or operate at those airports very frequently, please be aware of glider ops 5000 and below INVOF SBJ on weekends and occasionaly weekday evenings.

Thanks guys. We're constantly looking for you while we're thermalling. Fly safe.

It can be busy in the terminal area and both pilots won't have time constantly look outside the entire time. While a glider technically has the right of way, physics and the 'rule of tonnage' apply. You'll probably lose the battle between a Schweitzer and a 737 or RJ. A transponder would help thru TCAS...but I understand it's unlikely.

Bloodhound
09-16-2007, 08:17 PM
I'm going to guess that ATC have a/c at those altitudes purely out of necessity. That whole area is a hornet's nest and they need any and all airspace. If an aircraft is there, it's probably because there is another aircraft at the more-desirable altitudes. As you probably know, it's not just the "big 3" in that area. There's TEB, ISP, Stewart, and all the other smaller airports so there are a/c everywhere. I don't have a lot of experience to LGA or JFK but tons is EWR and SBJ is only used as a departure fix out of EWR.

As for speeds, 250 is the norm on the departures and anything from 180-250 on the arrivals. Usually, the departures are 250 because ATC wants you out of their hair. Sometimes it's a little slower but that based on the a/c in front and required spacing. The arrival speeds is dictated by volume and required spacing.


flyosu
09-17-2007, 06:52 AM
I know one reason is because RJ's will often land 11 at EWR, and will come over SBJ at about 3000 to join final.

We recently had a vistor to the glider operation whose a captain at XJet. He says when they come through that area they're totally heads down and not paying a bit of attention out the windows.

No good pilot, let alone a captain at a 121 carrier on a turbojet aircraft, should allow both pilots to be heads down at 3000 feet.

RonnyK320
09-17-2007, 07:00 AM
No good pilot, let alone a captain at a 121 carrier on a turbojet aircraft, should allow both pilots to be heads down at 3000 feet.


You obviously don't fly a turbojet at 121 carrier...

SabreDriver
09-17-2007, 10:07 AM
You obviously don't fly a turbojet at 121 carrier...


What part of 121 operations relieves the pilot of maintaining proper lookout doctrine? 121.what? :rolleyes: If our procedures have us so busy that we cannot maintain an effective lookout, then we need to change our procedures. While operating in VMC conditions, there is absolutely no substitute for a good VFR scan, and the diligent practice of "see and avoid" along with suppressing the the "big sky, little airplane" theory in the cockpit.

There also is a pretty good chance that those glider ops are notam'd. On my last flight into JFK, there were over 31 pages of those darn notam things, so I might have missed one. :eek:

I don't personally fly gliders, but I think if I did, I darn sure wouldn't do it in the area of the TEB/EWR/JFK etc... without a transponder, just not a good example of risk management. You might be in the right to do it, dead right too.


SD out.

Killship
09-17-2007, 10:42 AM
If you are talking about Sewark, I don't think we go as low as 3000' around the Solberg area, we usually get 3000' just prior to intercepting the localizer, either for 04R or 22L (unless the controllers dump you at 2500' after passing TEB for 22L). BTW about 2 years ago we almost ran into a glider coming in around Crank/SAX, we missed him by about 2-300 feet as he dove out of our way. He would have lost as we were in a 767-400. I better not complain though as I fly sailplanes on my few off days...

FliFast
09-17-2007, 11:01 AM
Good post Sabre,

Even though we preach see and avoid, inevitably and unfortunately it happens that both pilots will be heads-down in the terminal area. To think it doesn't happen is not realistic.

Maybe what we can take away from this thread is that we raise our awareness of this "gotcha" and when the stuff hits the fan and both of you want to take a whack at the magic box, someone will say "waittttta a minute"...who is minding the store and why are we both heads down".

Safe travels,

FF

SenecaDriver
09-17-2007, 11:06 AM
It can be busy in the terminal area and both pilots won't have time constantly look outside the entire time. While a glider technically has the right of way, physics and the 'rule of tonnage' apply. You'll probably lose the battle between a Schweitzer and a 737 or RJ. A transponder would help thru TCAS...but I understand it's unlikely.

Don't think the 'rule of tonnage' was any help to the PSA 727 crew over San Diego back in 78. Or the recent NetJet crew for that matter. Somebody needs to be looking out the window. Busy or not.

Ok back on Topic...

Any of you guys/controlers who operate in/around the NY 3 see the Bravo changing shape or getting larger. Seems that most Class B's out west have extensions on them and extend up to 10K MSL? I saw something recently in Aviation week that would sugest changes are coming.

Ottopilot
09-17-2007, 12:25 PM
I'm surprised no one has said this:

"Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person operating a large turbine engine powered airplane to or from a primary airport for which Class B airspace area is designed must operate at or above the designated floors of the class B airspace area while within the lateral limits of that area."

"Large turbine powered aircraft operating to and from a primary airport are prohibited from operating below the floor of any portion of class B airspace, unless specifically authorized by ATC. A visual approach does not consititue authorization to operate below the floor of class B airspace."

I've been flying out of Newark for over 10 years. I've never been near SBJ at 3000'- I'm always higher. I've never been "authorized by ATC to operate below the class B airspace." I've never seen glider NOTAMS. There are many glider airports and that means gliders- don't need a NOTAM for fly a glider. The Shaff arrival or V213 has many gliders. Just north of the Williamsport arrival and PENNS intersection has lots of gliders. And, of course, down by SBJ there are gliders. They have glider symbols on the sectional charts. Airline pilots don't have this info. See and avoid is the responsibilty of all pilots, but use common sense too. Don't fly on busy airline arrivals in or out of class B airspace. It's like a pedestrian crossing a busy intersection without the crosswalk green light.

There are also high power rocket launches on V213 near Shaff that fly on the first or second weekends of the month. They fly big rockets up to 12,000' and can reach speeds exceeding Mach 1-2. They are NOTAMed, but the airlines do not get these NOTAMS. Why? I don't know. Airliners pass this area at about 7,000' for Newark. Rocket flights over 5,000' are called into Boston Center for clearance. Plus, they look up before they launch the rocket. see http://www.metrarocketclub.org/

727C47
09-17-2007, 02:33 PM
used to fly a Champ out of good old SMQ '97-'03, I still look down out at that awesome lil aerodrome every time i'm EWR bound from the west, but usually we are 4000 ft or above ,till we are a bit closer to Newark. We keep a good viddy outside too,after all you never can tell. give my best to the Walkers,and the Holtaways

RonnyK320
09-17-2007, 08:24 PM
What part of 121 operations relieves the pilot of maintaining proper lookout doctrine? 121.what? :rolleyes: If our procedures have us so busy that we cannot maintain an effective lookout, then we need to change our procedures. While operating in VMC conditions, there is absolutely no substitute for a good VFR scan, and the diligent practice of "see and avoid" along with suppressing the the "big sky, little airplane" theory in the cockpit.

There also is a pretty good chance that those glider ops are notam'd. On my last flight into JFK, there were over 31 pages of those darn notam things, so I might have missed one. :eek:

I don't personally fly gliders, but I think if I did, I darn sure wouldn't do it in the area of the TEB/EWR/JFK etc... without a transponder, just not a good example of risk management. You might be in the right to do it, dead right too.


SD out.

You fly a Sabre. Get a real job before you post on here. This is "AIRLINE PILOT CENTRAL", not "LOSER PILOT JOB CENTRAL".

md11phlyer
09-17-2007, 10:07 PM
You fly a Sabre. Get a real job before you post on here. This is "AIRLINE PILOT CENTRAL", not "LOSER PILOT JOB CENTRAL".

Innapropriate and embarrassing. I'm not a moderator but that's just lame.

Slice
09-17-2007, 11:51 PM
Don't think the 'rule of tonnage' was any help to the PSA 727 crew over San Diego back in 78. Or the recent NetJet crew for that matter. Somebody needs to be looking out the window. Busy or not.

Ok back on Topic...

Any of you guys/controlers who operate in/around the NY 3 see the Bravo changing shape or getting larger. Seems that most Class B's out west have extensions on them and extend up to 10K MSL? I saw something recently in Aviation week that would sugest changes are coming.

Whatever dude. I'll take my chances in my 767 vs your Seneca anyday...

ewrbasedpilot
09-18-2007, 05:02 AM
They are NOTAMed, but the airlines do not get these NOTAMS. Why? I don't know. ...........

Because they are too busy making us aware of the CRPs on the routes to SJU and the Caribbean when we're flying from EWR to SAT. What a joke and waste of paper. Someone really needs to review what NOTAMs we get.

SenecaDriver
09-18-2007, 06:04 AM
Whatever dude. I'll take my chances in my 767 vs your Seneca anyday...
Sorry, I Didn't mean for it to come across as a flame job,...... Dude.

I still stand by my statement, however. I think both our chances are pretty low if you meet me in my Seneca at 3000'. So looking out the window would be benificial to both of us.

Unless of course Karen Black is your Head FA:D

Slice
09-18-2007, 07:17 AM
Sorry, I Didn't mean for it to come across as a flame job,...... Dude.

I still stand by my statement, however. I think both our chances are pretty low if you meet me in my Seneca at 3000'. So looking out the window would be benificial to both of us.

Unless of course Karen Black is your Head FA:D

I didn't mean to say it alleviates the see and avoid responsibility of either guy. Now, enlighten me on K.B?:)

pilotss
09-18-2007, 07:35 AM
That seems pretty far out to be at 3000. If you are under the class B the aircraft should be a 200kts not 250. And the controllers are supposed to tell you that you are under class B(FARAIM ref)....but they don't.

I would go with a transponder. You'll see the commercial airliners doing quite a few TCAS warning maneuvers and if ATC gets enough of them they will stop vectoring so low in that sector.

Pilots may not be head down but that terminal area is BUSY. And although we do look outside, it is our busiest time in the entire flight.

SenecaDriver
09-18-2007, 08:08 AM
Remember Airport 75, that 70's distaster block buster. After a mid air, Karen Black takes the controls and Charlton Heston comes to her rescue via a cable from a helicopter.:eek:

John Pennekamp
09-18-2007, 08:25 AM
Hi all,

Ok, so today I completed my provate glider checkride at Somerset airport (KSMQ) in New Jersey. I need to ask some air traffic controllers and NYC area airline pilots about the airspace and routing of jetliners through the area of Solberg (SBJ) VOR.

I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but if you just earned your glider rating at that airport, shouldn't you already be familiar with the area? If not, you should get back with your instructor and have them familiarize you. I understand that you may not be 100% up on the routings of jets in and out of the area's airports, but it seems to me like this would be something important to know if you're operating out of that area.

Slice
09-18-2007, 08:25 AM
Remember Airport 75, that 70's distaster block buster. After a mid air, Karen Black takes the controls and Charlton Heston comes to her rescue via a cable from a helicopter.:eek:

Gotcha, didn't remember her name.

Alex
09-18-2007, 05:29 PM
From my experience, we usually get direct SBJ when departing out over the west gates from EWR, and are usually climbing through 8000'-9000' ish when we get there. As far as arrivals go, the downwind is flown at 6000' for 22L/4R arrivals. The only time i could imagine us flying at 3000' in the vicinity of SBJ would be on vectors for 11 coming off the PHLBO arrival. Typically, the vector will take you just east of Somerset airport, followed by a turn to the northeast to join the final just to the east-southeast of Morristown (MMU). All of this is perfectly legal because the class B doesn't start till about 7-10 miles east of SBJ and starts at 3000, so technically we never actually operate underneath the class B. I'm thinking (just a guess) the reason we get vectored so low around there is to stay below the downwind traffic for 22L/4R, as well as below the traffic going into TEB which has the JAIKE arrival routed directly over SBJ at 4000'. So with 22L/4R downwind traffic at 6000', TEB arrivals at 4000', and no way for 11 arrivals to stay at 5000' without having to descend through the TEB arrivals, it seems like 3000' is the only solution for 11 arrivals to be at in the vicinity of SBJ. Hope this helps...

MikeB525
09-18-2007, 06:57 PM
I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but if you just earned your glider rating at that airport, shouldn't you already be familiar with the area? If not, you should get back with your instructor and have them familiarize you. I understand that you may not be 100% up on the routings of jets in and out of the area's airports, but it seems to me like this would be something important to know if you're operating out of that area.

I'm fully aware of the routings. It's sorta hard not to be. I've been flying for 6 years and have an instrument rating. I know how IFR procedures and routings work. You misinterpreted that statement. It was a statement of the questions' topic, not a request for information.

Got some more info for you: I have a PIREP from one of our experienced pilots who was over SMQ on sunday. We all saw from the ground two Eruopean heavies come through SMQ. The pilot up there, who was at 4200, said they were at about 4500. The came through one right behind the other, about 3 to 5 minutes apart.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1