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wannabepilot
09-18-2007, 08:18 PM
http://www.reuters.com/article/ousiv/idUSN1828645220070918?pageNumber=1

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boeing Co's (BA.N: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=BA.N), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=BA.N), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=BA.N)) new carbon-composite 787 Dreamliner plane may turn out to be unsafe and could lead to more deaths in crashes, according to a report by veteran journalist Dan Rather to be broadcast in the United States on Tuesday.
The new plane, which is mostly made from brittle carbon compounds rather than flexible aluminum, is more likely to shatter on impact and may emit poisonous chemicals when ignited, Rather will report based on interviews with a former Boeing engineer and various industry experts, according to a transcript of the show.
"The problem is all the unknowns that are being introduced and then explained away as if there is no problem," said Vince Weldon, a former Boeing engineer, in an interview to be broadcast as part of Rather's report.
Weldon compares a recent crash in a standard aluminum plane where the dented but intact fuselage kept fire at bay and allowed the passengers to leave the plane alive.
"With a composite airframe, the fuselage would not crumple, it would shatter ... that shattered hole would be there for the fire that's going into the airplane," Weldon says in the interview. "Instead of everyone getting out, it would be a far less positive result."
Weldon says he was fired by Boeing after a 46-year career because of his persistent complaints about the design of the 787. He claims he represents the view of others at Boeing who were afraid to speak out.
Boeing, which did not provide officials for on-camera interviews in Rather's report, said on Tuesday Weldon's claims were not valid and the plane would not fly if it is not safe.
"We've looked at Mr. Weldon's claims. We've had technical committees review them. We do an exceptional amount of testing," said Lori Gunter, a spokeswoman for Boeing's commercial plane unit. "Absolutely, these materials are safe. They are tested, they will be certified."
She said the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) must find the 787 to be as crashworthy as aluminum planes, and the plane was doing well in those tests so far. She declined to comment on the circumstances of Weldon's departure from Boeing.

FIRST FLIGHT DELAYED
Boeing's lightweight, fuel-efficient 787, which has become its most successful plane launch ever, is set for its first test flight between mid-November and mid-December after a three month delay due to a shortage of bolts and problems programming the flight control software.
The first 787 is due to be delivered to Japan's All Nippon Airways (9202.T: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=9202.T), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=9202.T), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=9202.T)) in May next year, meaning it will have at most six months of flight tests, much shorter than previous jetliner programs.
Boeing's rival Airbus, owned by European aerospace company EADS (EAD.PA: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=EAD.PA), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=EAD.PA), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=EAD.PA)), is also working on a composite fuselage for its new A350 jet, but it is some years behind Boeing in the design and production process.
In Rather's report, Weldon and other experts also argue that the carbon-composite fuselage would not survive a lightning strike as well as aluminum, would emit toxic fumes when burning, and could easily be damaged without any visible sign.
Weldon says Boeing was misrepresenting to airlines the ease of maintenance on carbon fuselage planes. The report cites experts referring to Airbus planes that had carbon parts with problems that were not easily visible.
Rather's report also includes aviation experts who see little or no problem with the 787.
"I'm excited to ride on the 787. I'm excited to fly in composite aircraft," says Joseph Rakow, an engineer at consulting company Exponent Inc (EXPO.O: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=EXPO.O), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=EXPO.O), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=EXPO.O)), in an interview in the report.
Todd Wissing, a commercial pilot, says he would fly the 787 as long as the composite materials are rigorously tested.

"We put safety as our top priority," says Wissing in the report. "We use the 21st Century inspection methods with these new materials. Then we have complete confidence that we can get in that airplane with our passengers and go fly because that's what we can do."
The report by former CBS News anchor Dan Rather is the latest edition of "Dan Rather Reports," broadcast on HDNet, a subscription-only television channel that about 4 million Americans are able to view.
Last year Rather left CBS (CBSa.N: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=CBSa.N), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=CBSa.N), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=CBSa.N)) after a scandal over his reporting on President George W. Bush's military record.
(Reporting by Bill Rigby)


the King
09-18-2007, 08:25 PM
Because Dan Rather is known for completely objective reporting...plus the media is always right...

11Fan
09-18-2007, 08:37 PM
I wonder if this was part of Rather's report.

From the Seatttle Times.

But according to a summary of OSHA's findings, Boeing told investigators Weldon was fired for threatening a supervisor, specifically for stating he wanted to hang the African-American executive "on a meat hook" and that he "wouldn't mind" seeing a noose around the executive's neck.
Weldon denied to OSHA investigators that he had referred to a noose and said the "meat hook" reference had not been a threat.

OSHA dismissed Weldon's claim, denying him whistle-blower status largely on the grounds that Boeing's 787 design does not violate any FAA regulations or standards.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2003889663_boeing180.html


wingnutC-17
09-18-2007, 08:49 PM
I wonder how much Airbus is paying Dan. With the Dollar down against the Euro, it should be pretty hansome!

sqwkvfr
09-18-2007, 08:58 PM
Is Dan gonna break out some more forged documents?

...and then deny it even months after getting fired for using them?

highflyer
09-18-2007, 09:06 PM
hmm, I seem to recall that aluminum burns quite readily as well. Not to mention all the plastic in the interior as well as the insulation. Smoke from these fumes are pretty toxic. Would carbon fiber be any less safe? I doubt it, but then I'm not Dan Rather... ;)

HercDriver130
09-19-2007, 02:47 AM
dan rather = dip****

UnlimitedAkro
09-19-2007, 03:04 AM
Will someone please remind Dan Rather that if you crash a plane into the ground at 500 mph, it really doesnt matter if the plane is made out of aluminum, composite, or play dough.

You get the same outcome.

shiftwork
09-19-2007, 04:21 AM
I would Rather Not listen to him.....

Why doesn't he do an investigative study on why the media is generally off on things that they report; Purely entertainment......

ewrbasedpilot
09-19-2007, 05:31 AM
Dan Rather probably knows as much about composite aircraft as GWB knows about running this country and going to war.:rolleyes: I will say in his defense that he's a great passenger and treats the crews with respect, something you don't find much these days.

shiftwork
09-19-2007, 05:55 AM
did know you guys carried around GWB?

shinysideup
09-19-2007, 06:40 AM
I believe this is raTHer likely to be bogus!

MikeB525
09-19-2007, 06:53 AM
Whose he reporting for and on what network? I thought he was fired.....I mean, he retired, from CBS. :rolleyes:

AndreS
09-19-2007, 09:50 AM
aluminum will burn in powder form and very thin sheet when it reaches high enough temperature. the toxins created from burning the resins in the carbon fiber matrix is no different than those found on current aircraft, which are just as likely to have issues(toxic gasses, etc) with a fire.
conductivity of the carbon is only slightly different than aluminum as well, it conducts electricty.
use of carbon composites in aircraft isn't a new thing (777 tail is all carbon, and more parts than you know of are nomex honeycomb- i.e overhead storage bins, ), composites are not new at all. the only thing new is that they are using it on a much larger scale, which is overdue.

Rather and the disgruntled engineer are just blowing smoke.

who is paying him?

Blkflyer
09-19-2007, 10:05 AM
I wonder if this was part of Rather's report.

From the Seatttle Times.

But according to a summary of OSHA's findings, Boeing told investigators Weldon was fired for threatening a supervisor, specifically for stating he wanted to hang the African-American executive "on a meat hook" and that he "wouldn't mind" seeing a noose around the executive's neck.
Weldon denied to OSHA investigators that he had referred to a noose and said the "meat hook" reference had not been a threat.

OSHA dismissed Weldon's claim, denying him whistle-blower status largely on the grounds that Boeing's 787 design does not violate any FAA regulations or standards.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2003889663_boeing180.html


Oh and I suppose according to some that The African American executive was a AA ticket holder and probably fast tracked, so he needed to be Noosed and put on a meat hook do you see how this is a problem but I digress...

HPilot
09-19-2007, 10:09 AM
Boy I sure am glad we're going all Airbus..............not.:rolleyes:

Lighteningspeed
09-19-2007, 02:28 PM
Carbon fiber composite materials have around a long time now and there is no scientific basis for making allegations like this. Military aircraft have been using carbon fiber materials for years. They are lighter than steel but stronger than steel.

Sounds like something instigated by Airbus consortium. Europeans are poised to take away the US dominance in commercial aircraft production. If that happens it could mean loss of thousands jobs in the US. With friends like that who needs enemies.

MikeB525
09-19-2007, 04:14 PM
Hey, guess what I just found on yahoo.com.

Dan Rather is sueing CBS and Viacom over his being forced into retirement after the forged documents scandal. Sounds like a cranky old fart trying to make a comeback. In case you're wondering, Rather is asking for $70 million dollars :eek: What a tool...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070919/ap_en_tv/tv_rather_lawsuit

shiftwork
09-19-2007, 04:52 PM
That would be an interesting piece for Katie Couric to pick up or even better yet....... Geraldo Rivera

11Fan
09-19-2007, 07:37 PM
Oh and I suppose according to some that The African American executive was a AA ticket holder and probably fast tracked, so he needed to be Noosed and put on a meat hook do you see how this is a problem but I digress...


:confused: I"m not sure what you mean here, but perhaps it's better that way.

Mink
09-19-2007, 07:38 PM
"What's the frequency, Kenneth?":eek:

Mink
09-19-2007, 07:40 PM
CBS News anchor Dan Rather, renowned for his unusual expressions and sayings, has led a colorful life (http://www.ratherbiased.com/bizarre.htm). However, one bizarre event really takes the cake.

One night in October 1986, Rather was walking down a Manhattan street when he was punched from behind and thrown to the ground. His assailant kicked and beat him while repeating, "Kenneth, what is the frequency?"
No one could explain the event, and the rumors flew fast and wide. Some speculated the assailant was a KGB agent, while others claimed the attack was the work of a jealous husband. Rather himself couldn't shed any light on the subject. His explanation (http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/Aficionado/people/fh696.html) at the time? I got mugged. Who understands these things? I didn't and I don't now. I didn't make a lot of it at the time and I don't now. I wish I knew who did it and why, but I have no idea.
Apparently the strange event moved R.E.M. singer Michael Stipe (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3142/kenneth.html), who said of the incident: It remains the premier unsolved American surrealist act of the 20th century. It's a misunderstanding that was scarily random, media hyped and just plain bizarre.
The attack inspired the 1994 R.E.M. hit "What's the Frequency, Kenneth (http://www.geocities.com/mmeyer_hermann/Kenneth.html)." Being a good sport, Dan Rather even accompanied the band when they performed the song on a Late Show with David Letterman appearance (http://www.ratherbiased.com/bizarre.htm#kenneth). In 1997, based on a tip from a psychiatrist, Rather's attacker was identified as William Tager (http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,613,00.html). According to the psychiatrist, Tager, who was currently serving time for killing an NBC stagehand, blamed news media for beaming signals into his head, and thought if he could just find out the correct frequency, he could block those signals that were constantly assailing him. Hence the enigmatic inquiry.

A320fumes
09-20-2007, 03:53 AM
Oh and I suppose according to some that The African American executive was a AA ticket holder and probably fast tracked, so he needed to be Noosed and put on a meat hook do you see how this is a problem but I digress...

WHAT????????????????

Futureman
09-20-2007, 09:01 AM
WHAT????????????????
He's the next Auburn Calloway

11Fan
09-20-2007, 10:00 AM
Previous comments deleted.........

Wasn't worth reading anyway.

Blackbird
09-20-2007, 01:41 PM
Oh and I suppose according to some that The African American executive was a AA ticket holder and probably fast tracked, so he needed to be Noosed and put on a meat hook do you see how this is a problem but I digress...


I think that their is no place on this site or in this career for ignorance like yours, and I hope being a former military officer and now comm. pilot that your ignorance is not there too. :mad:

LarianLeQuella
09-20-2007, 01:44 PM
CBS News anchor Dan Rather, renowned for his unusual expressions and sayings, has led a colorful life (http://www.ratherbiased.com/bizarre.htm). However, one bizarre event really takes the cake.

One night in October 1986, Rather was walking down a Manhattan street when he was punched from behind and thrown to the ground. His assailant kicked and beat him while repeating, "Kenneth, what is the frequency?"
No one could explain the event, and the rumors flew fast and wide. Some speculated the assailant was a KGB agent, while others claimed the attack was the work of a jealous husband. Rather himself couldn't shed any light on the subject. His explanation (http://www.cigaraficionado.com/Cigar/Aficionado/people/fh696.html) at the time?I got mugged. Who understands these things? I didn't and I don't now. I didn't make a lot of it at the time and I don't now. I wish I knew who did it and why, but I have no idea. Apparently the strange event moved R.E.M. singer Michael Stipe (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/3142/kenneth.html), who said of the incident:It remains the premier unsolved American surrealist act of the 20th century. It's a misunderstanding that was scarily random, media hyped and just plain bizarre.The attack inspired the 1994 R.E.M. hit "What's the Frequency, Kenneth (http://www.geocities.com/mmeyer_hermann/Kenneth.html)." Being a good sport, Dan Rather even accompanied the band when they performed the song on a Late Show with David Letterman appearance (http://www.ratherbiased.com/bizarre.htm#kenneth). In 1997, based on a tip from a psychiatrist, Rather's attacker was identified as William Tager (http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,613,00.html). According to the psychiatrist, Tager, who was currently serving time for killing an NBC stagehand, blamed news media for beaming signals into his head, and thought if he could just find out the correct frequency, he could block those signals that were constantly assailing him. Hence the enigmatic inquiry.

I remember watching that Letterman. All in all though, he shouldn't be trying to do research on things he has no qualifications on. And taking some disgruntled employees words for things probably isn't the most sound advice. It got him in trouble the last time.

Not to say that Boeing has never done any shady dealings, but I honestly doubt this is one of them.

x183
09-21-2007, 06:12 AM
Aerospace grade carbon fiber is cool stuff. You can buy it from a number of sources and make things out of it yourself. Try taking a blowtorch to it. I have. Not only does it NOT burn, it is cool to the touch immediately after removing the flame. You can also cure the carbon with a number of different resins using a vacuum curing system and an autoclave. If you sandwich a layer of kevlar in between the carbon faces, it dramtically reduces the possibility of shattering. Car (F1 among others) and motorcycle racing have employed the carbon tech for years with dramatic high speed crashed results that are positive. When did you actually ever see carbon fiber body parts from a Formula 1 racer catch fire? The only thing that burns is the fuel that spills- and afterwards the carbon parts are still intact. Carbon and composites are the way of the future.

mike734
09-21-2007, 07:01 AM
And taking some disgruntled employees

Is that all it takes to make you disqualify the guy? God forbid anyone ever call you disgruntled. Maybe his concerns should be checked out.

Blkflyer
09-21-2007, 04:29 PM
Read The whole story.

Blkflyer
09-21-2007, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Blkflyer View Post
Oh and I suppose according to some that The African American executive was a AA ticket holder and probably fast tracked, so he needed to be Noosed and put on a meat hook do you see how this is a problem but I digress...
You're a ****ing idiot. Not a single person brought up race, it has nothing to do with the topic, and everyone is even talking about how the WHITE GUY is half retarded. Get over yourself.
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makoshark72
09-22-2007, 01:43 PM
The report by former CBS News anchor Dan Rather is the latest edition of "Dan Rather Reports," broadcast on HDNet, a subscription-only television channel that about 4 million Americans are able to view.


Well, there ya go.....

flyinpigg
09-22-2007, 01:53 PM
Carbon fiber isn't like the fiber glass on your boat! It isn't brittle, what a bunch of morons! Rather going to get into trouble again!



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