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View Full Version : Traitors in ALPA


nightrider
09-22-2007, 10:22 PM
I have watched in disbelief over the last 8 months as the leadership at ALPA especially that treacherous piece of sh** Prader has completely ignored the wishes of the group he was elected to represent. His reasoning was this is going to change anyway so why fight it, I talked to an lec chair from United recently and he told me that Prader has been lobbying for it on the sly and behind the memberships back since he took control of the office.

I don't know what is wrong with you guys, but he needs and deserves to be FIRED. This guy is a traitor and completely lacks integrity and you guys know this. Do something about it.

Nightrider


all4114all
09-22-2007, 10:51 PM
To understand what ALPA says and how they actually operate, read this link below.

http://www.airlinesafety.com/Unions/CockpitPolitics.htm

all4114all
09-22-2007, 11:09 PM
United Airlines pilots scab in Australia

link below

http://www.awaforums.com/scabs/ual_pilots_as_scabs.htm


captjns
09-23-2007, 12:02 AM
United Airlines pilots scab in Australia

link below

http://www.awaforums.com/scabs/ual_pilots_as_scabs.htm

Is this from an acutual ALPA archived article? Being very strong supporters of ALPA I would not think UAL pilots would cross a picket line, not withstanding the fiasco of the mid 1980's of course. I know that HP pilots were there too since Murdoch was in cahootz with Beauveis at the time. I remember seeing placks and letters of appreciation from Ansett and Rupert himself hanging on the hallowed halls of America West at the old Centerport office location back in 90.

TheBaron
09-23-2007, 02:08 AM
I have watched in disbelief over the last 8 months as the leadership at ALPA especially that treacherous piece of sh** Prader has completely ignored the wishes of the group he was elected to represent. His reasoning was this is going to change anyway so why fight it, I talked to an lec chair from united recently and he told me that Prader has been lobbying for it on the sly and behind the memberships back since he took control of the office.

I don't know what is wrong with you guys, but he needs and deserves to be FIRED. This guy is a traitor and completely lacks integrity and you guys know this. Do something about it.

Nightrider
Wishes are nice but they must have some basis in reality for them to come true. Age 60 was/is going to change, period. Our government can't allow some 64 year old Chinese guy to pilot his 747 into LAX on one hand, and then tell U.S. pilots that they can't fly beyond 60 for safety reasons. Doesn't it give you a headache beating your skull against a brick wall? If you want to complain about something, do so about the inadequate and misleading communications that came out of ALPA during this process.

BlueMoon
09-23-2007, 06:45 AM
United Airlines pilots scab in Australia

link below

http://www.awaforums.com/scabs/ual_pilots_as_scabs.htm

". Since these were voluntary resignations, and by definition not a strike since literally no strike had been called, there was no longer any labor protections afforded to the union or its members as should be obvious. Thus, there was no longer any reason to retain potential positions for these pilots since they had simply quit."


So what am I missing something? They quit their jobs and didn't go on strike. There was no official job action, so how can they be scabs?

757Driver
09-23-2007, 07:20 AM
Wishes are nice but they must have some basis in reality for them to come true. Age 60 was/is going to change, period. Our government can't allow some 64 year old Chinese guy to pilot his 747 into LAX on one hand, and then tell U.S. pilots that they can't fly beyond 60 for safety reasons. Doesn't it give you a headache beating your skull against a brick wall? If you want to complain about something, do so about the inadequate and misleading communications that came out of ALPA during this process.

I think his point is that a majority of ALPA membership were against the age 60 change and ALPA did not even attempt to fight the legislation. Prater has his own agenda and always has. The only reason he got elected was that he swayed the UAL reps by telling them he would do everything he could to get age 60 changed.

Politics at its worst.

JoeyMeatballs
09-23-2007, 08:12 AM
The only reason he got elected was that he swayed the UAL reps by telling them he would do everything he could to get age 60 changed.

Politics at its worst.

If thats the honest truth, thats a disgrace

all4114all
09-23-2007, 08:17 AM
". Since these were voluntary resignations, and by definition not a strike since literally no strike had been called, there was no longer any labor protections afforded to the union or its members as should be obvious. Thus, there was no longer any reason to retain potential positions for these pilots since they had simply quit."


So what am I missing something? They quit their jobs and didn't go on strike. There was no official job action, so how can they be scabs?


At the time of the AFAP Strike in 1989, Ansett Worldwide Holdings owned a majority stake in America West. America West sent it's 737 pilots down to Australia to Scab Ansett routes. And since AFAP was a member organization of IFALPA, the higher-ups at ALPA recognized the America West scabs as ALPA scabs.

nightrider
09-23-2007, 09:30 AM
Prater threw all of us under the bus for his own personal gain, and regardless of whether it changes he needs to be held accountable for his actions and living with the shame of being recalled would be perfect.

Drop the ansett stuff you guys are taking away from the important issue here. If I were still an alpa member I would do all I could to recall Prader.

What is he going to do next, I see by his statement that he is now also accepting the UAV commercial language in hr.2881. ALPA should be fighting this tooth and nail.

Get rid of this POS before he sells us all out again.

Nightrider

all4114all
09-23-2007, 09:48 AM
Prater threw all of us under the bus for his own personal gain, and regardless of whether it changes he needs to be held accountable for his actions and living with the shame of being recalled would be perfect.

Drop the ansett stuff you guys are taking away from the important issue here. If I were still an alpa member I would do all I could to recall Prader.

What is he going to do next, I see by his statement that he is now also accepting the UAV commercial language in hr.2881. ALPA should be fighting this tooth and nail.

Get rid of this POS before he sells us all out again.

Nightrider

The Ansett "stuff" is relevant and shows the hypocrisy of ALPA.

Your hr 2881 quote has nothing to do with this thread in my humble opinion.

Al Aska
09-23-2007, 12:09 PM
Age 60????? What did ya say?? Had your turn . . . . Now go and enjoy what little time you have left!

TheBaron
09-23-2007, 03:00 PM
I think his point is that a majority of ALPA membership were against the age 60 change and ALPA did not even attempt to fight the legislation. Prater has his own agenda and always has. The only reason he got elected was that he swayed the UAL reps by telling them he would do everything he could to get age 60 changed.

Politics at its worst.
I understood his point. It doesn't really matter if 98% of ALPA were against the age change, it was going to change. It's a matter of understanding when and where you have the ability to affect the outcome of something. This is not one of those situations. As soon as foreign pilots were allowed to fly into the U.S. over age 60, it was a done deal. So, is it better for ALPA to spend time and resources trying to halt a change that is unstoppable?

FlyerJosh
09-23-2007, 03:08 PM
You left out the second part of that statement:

So, is it better for ALPA to spend time and resources trying to halt a change that is unstoppable?

Or is it better for ALPA to change their course once the inevitable happens and ensure that they play a role in how the new age 65 rules are adapted and integrated to ensure that its membership is protected to the greatest extent possible?

Ottopilot
09-23-2007, 05:48 PM
The way I understand it and heard it from ALPA: ALPA polled the membership and the majority was in favor of changing age 60. ALPA said OK, we'll be proactive in the process and get involved with the FAA to protect the pilot's interests.

I don't know or care about Prater or any ALPA leadership. I didn't see the poll results. I don't know what politics are involved. I'll try to find the source for the above statement. I know this is a public forum and any and everyone has an opinion, but let's stick to the facts whatever they may be.

By the way, I'm 40 and I want the age 60 rule.

Ottopilot
09-23-2007, 05:57 PM
ALPA’s Governing Bodies Grapple with Age 60 Issue
At its May meeting, ALPA’s Executive Board will consider a resolution from the Executive Council to modify the union’s Age 60 policy if it decides that such efforts are in the best interest of ALPA pilots.

The resolution comes on the heels of the FAA’s announcement that it will propose a new rule to allow pilots to fly until they are 65. The proposed rule would parallel the ICAO standard—either pilot or copilot may fly up to age 65 as long as the other crew member is under age 60.

Since the announcement, ALPA’s president, Capt. John Prater, established the ALPA Age 60 Blue Ribbon Panel to study the long-range effects of potential changes to the FAA Age 60 Rule and to identify issues connected to possible changes to pilot mandatory retirement age.

The Panel presented its preliminary report to the Council on April 24 which included issues that need to be addressed in legislation to change the Age 60 Rule. Currently, Congress is considering legislation—S. 65 and H.R. 1125—that would raise the upper age limit to 65 in multi-crew operations as long as the other required pilot is under 60; sunset the current FAA Age 60 Rule 30 days after the effective date which is the date of enactment; require the Secretary of Transportation within 30 days after the effective date to modify the regulation making it consistent with the statutory change; and establish that it would not be a basis for a claim of re-employment or seniority under any labor agreement.

ALPA expects that attempts will be made to attach or include S. 65 and H.R. 1125 in each chamber's version of the 2007 FAA reauthorization bills which the committees of jurisdiction are scheduling to debate and vote on in May or June.

The Blue Ribbon Panel concluded that provisions in both bills do not sufficiently address ALPA’s issues. Those issues include:

appropriate language to prevent retroactive application of a change to the rule,
appropriate language to ensure stronger liability protection for airlines and pilot unions in implementing a change to the rule,
assurances that FAA normal retirement age language in certain defined benefit plans would not cause a cutback in accrued benefits
opposition to any additional age-related diagnostic medical testing,
any attempt by the FAA to obtain greater access to medical pilot records, and
support of FAA Air Surgeon Fred Tilton’s recommendation to require a first class medical certification every six months for pilots over age 60, and
appropriate language , modeled on Akaka bill, which requires the PBGC to calculate pilot pension benefits as though they worked to the more traditional retirement age of 65.
ALPA continues to collect information on this critical topic. For your opinion to be heard, eligible members MUST take the ALPA Age 60 Blue Ribbon Panel Survey. Although the survey results will not be the only factor the Board considers, it is an important aspect of the Board’s deliberation regarding the FAA Age 60 pilot retirement regulation.

More than 14,500 ALPA pilots have registered their opinions on the FAA Age 60 pilot retirement regulation via ALPA’s online survey. As of April 30, the top-10 pilot groups with the highest percentage of submissions are America West, FedEx, Northwest, ASTAR, Continental, Delta, United, Alaska, Hawaiian, and Atlas Air. The web-based survey began earlier this month and will remain open until May 10. Please log onto Crewroom.alpa.org to access the survey.

Ottopilot
09-23-2007, 06:06 PM
The president of the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA) is forming an internal work group to develop a response to the FAA administrator’s announcement to conduct rulemaking on the mandatory airline pilot retirement age.

“The fact that the FAA is set to put the Age 60 regulation into the rulemaking process is very significant,” explained ALPA president, Capt. John Prater, after Administrator Marion Blakey’s announcement at a National Press Club luncheon today. “The FAA is careful to propose rulemaking only when it is convinced that a rule will need to change.”

“ALPA policy is to support the rule as it is,” Prater said, adding that since 1980 the union has opposed and continues to oppose legislation that would overturn the rule. “However, despite that policy, we cannot afford to ignore the significance of the FAA’s announcement. That is why I have decided to form an ALPA Blue Ribbon Panel on Pilot Retirement, composed of representatives from the four of the association’s standing committees most logically connected with the Age 60 Issue: Air Safety, Retirement and Insurance, Collective Bargaining, and Aeromedical.”

The mission of the panel will be to study the effects of potential changes to the FAA Age 60 Rule and to develop recommendations on how ALPA can address the issue of pilot retirement with the goal of having a positive effect for ALPA members. The committee will uphold ALPA’s 75 year-long commitment to ensuring the highest level of aviation safety. The FAA announcement and the formation of the ALPA Blue Ribbon Panel come in the wake of five years of tumult for the airline pilot profession. Furloughs, pay and benefit cuts, and a lack of job growth have put severe economic pressure on airline pilots of all ages and experience levels. The panel will present its recommendations to the ALPA Executive Board, composed of the leaders of ALPA’s 40 pilot groups, at its May 2007 meeting.

“While it is impossible to predict what the final FAA rule will look like,” Prater said, “ALPA will use its credibility and influence to protect pilot interests throughout the process.”



I can't find the poll results. I'm still looking.

BlueMoon
09-24-2007, 06:44 AM
The results of the survey show that a majority of ALPA pilots favor maintaining the Age 60 Rule. Consider the following statistics from the survey:

When asked in a straight-forward yes or no format, “Do you favor changing the FAA Age 60 Rule?” 56% of ALPA pilots support maintaining the current rule; 42% want it to change.
When we asked pilots specifically about changing the rule to age 65, support for maintaining the current rule rose to 58% and support for change dropped to 39%.
The more specific we got, the fewer pilots supported change. When given a series of options and asked which they would most support, 54% support the current rule, while only 10% support increasing the age limit to 62, and only 22% support increasing it to 65. Further, fewer than 10% support the option of changing the rule to one that measures physical ability and health on an individual basis, regardless of age. And, fewer than 5% support increasing the age limit to higher than age 65 (2%) or lifting the age limit completely (3%).


Here is the google search for it, it is the second link down.

http://www.google.com/search?q=alpa+age+60+poll&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

Al Aska
09-24-2007, 07:11 AM
I thought BA just raised its retirement to 55 from 60??? And Cathay is still at 55... Air traffic controllers... Age 55... Just because someone else works until 65 does not mean we have to.

We live under a Government that loves Big Business! I do not care if its Dem's or Rep's... Lets just keep the pay down and the payouts low! Keep the pilot pool staffed and underpaid!

Work until you drop dead and the company and the government both benifit big time!

Cheers!

BoilerUP
09-24-2007, 08:07 AM
I'm disappointed in ALPA National leadership because they didn't do anything to protect the career progression of younger pilots regarding this change. I shouldn't be surprised, however, that their proposal provided a windfall to older pilots who not only will get another 5 years at the top of their earning potential but benefited from advancement of seniority due to Age 60 retirements for their entire career.

A better solution would have been to require the PIC of all 121 operations to be under the age of 60. Older pilots who wanted or needed to work would get another 5 years, likely at the top of FO pay and seniority, while not impinging on the career progression of younger pilots below them.

That would have been the best possible compromise to both positions...too bad it never appeared to have been considered.

Shrek
09-24-2007, 01:36 PM
I consider Traitors of ALPA being the line pilots who don't vote - don't volunteer - but who DO complain and try to recall volunteers of their Union trying to better their life on their behalf.

Nobody has the "Big Picture" in mind I have observed over the past couple of years.

Ottopilot
09-24-2007, 04:40 PM
The US governement/FAA can change any rule they want with or without ALPA's consent or input. Don't blame ALPA, they are just trying to deal with it.

Al Aska
09-24-2007, 05:33 PM
I'm disappointed in ALPA National leadership because they didn't do anything to protect the career progression of younger pilots regarding this change. I shouldn't be surprised, however, that their proposal provided a windfall to older pilots who not only will get another 5 years at the top of their earning potential but benefited from advancement of seniority due to Age 60 retirements for their entire career.

A better solution would have been to require the PIC of all 121 operations to be under the age of 60. Older pilots who wanted or needed to work would get another 5 years, likely at the top of FO pay and seniority, while not impinging on the career progression of younger pilots below them.

That would have been the best possible compromise to both positions...too bad it never appeared to have been considered.

You need to work for Alpa!

Wingnutt
09-24-2007, 05:44 PM
The US governement/FAA can change any rule they want with or without ALPA's consent or input. Don't blame ALPA, they are just trying to deal with it.

I guess I do not understand this post. You sound pro ALPA and at the same time you admit that no matter what they do the government is going to have their way...

I have always believed you put up or give up...my 2c....:cool:

Bellerophon
09-24-2007, 06:15 PM
Al Aska

...I thought BA just raised its retirement to 55 from 60???...

Did you mean from 55 to 60?

In fact the mandatory retirement age for all BA pilots is now 65, as a result of recent European legislation.

Regards

Bellerophon

Ottopilot
09-24-2007, 06:24 PM
I guess I do not understand this post. You sound pro ALPA and at the same time you admit that no matter what they do the government is going to have their way...

I have always believed you put up or give up...my 2c....:cool:

I'm not pro or con ALPA. I am ALPA. ALPA is just a union. They do not make laws in the US, the legislative branch does. ALPA might try and affect law/rule changes. The retirement age concerns all pilots, but that doesn't mean we can do anything to change it or keep it the same. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, I'm saying the FAA/federal government does what they want. I've written my congressmen and they said they support the change because of age discrimination. They make the laws, we only vote them in (and out!).

Ottopilot
09-24-2007, 06:25 PM
I have always believed you put up or give up...my 2c....:cool:


Well said! ALPA needs more pilots to "put up", but not "give up".

Al Aska
09-25-2007, 06:53 AM
Al Aska

...I thought BA just raised its retirement to 55 from 60???...

Did you mean from 55 to 60?

In fact the mandatory retirement age for all BA pilots is now 65, as a result of recent European legislation.

Regards

Bellerophon

Yes .... Too many beers!
Cheers!

TonyWilliams
09-25-2007, 10:05 AM
I thought BA just raised its retirement to 55 from 60?.... Air traffic controllers... Age 55... !


US Federal (FAA and DoD) Air Traffic Controllers can work until age 56, with a few exceptions:

1. Hired before (I think) 1974, no age limit
2. Reaching age 56 without 20 years of credible service, may continue working past 56, however they must retire on the month that they reach 20 years.



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