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View Full Version : NWA or UAL


John Pennekamp
09-23-2007, 08:52 AM
Given the choice which would you do?

NWA made 1.3 billion last year and plans to hire like crazy. With it's monopoly hubs, huge Asian presence, and shoestring budget, it will probably plod on until it merges with someone (Delta?) The DC-9s are going away, but huge attrition should make up for the airframe loss. All signs point to the Compass E-175s eventually being flown by mainline.

UAL: Undevoted management, huge labor trouble, losing money, moderate Asian presence, fierce competition in its largest hub. But great potential with the right management team. Great group of employees I fit in well with. Lots of great contacts. My hometown airline. Titanic watch, or hit rock bottom?

So what would you do? Please no "are you nuts, they both suck" comments, because we've already heard all of that here. If you had to choose one of the other, which would you choose and why?


HercDriver130
09-23-2007, 09:18 AM
Id go with either one.

LifeNtheFstLne
09-23-2007, 09:35 AM
I've wrestled with the same debate over and over again. When I talk to the older guys in the industry that have 'been there done that' they generally agree that it's best to take whomever offers you the job first, or whichever minimizes your need to commute. With nearly everyone hiring, I'm basing my decision nearly entirely on who has the most retirements planned and ranking them in that order. That being said, I don't think we've seen the last of the mega-mergers and who knows how 65 will pan out. The real answer to your question: I haven't a clue. But good luck to you either way. I've just accepted at this point that wherever I end up there will still be both good and bad times ahead. And on a side note, I do disagree with you regarding your Compass E-175 statement, though I wish it weren't so. Any regional jet that gets larger and larger only delays my transition to a legacy. Too bad most people (I'm not referring to you) don't seem to grasp that.


JollyF15
09-23-2007, 09:49 AM
I'm not in the know about United, but I jumpseat and dead head with NWA all the time. From a consumer stand point, the service there stinks--not just a little bit either. There's has been a noticable decline in services and employee attitudes over the past two years. I'm concerned about whether they will survive or not. You can't continue to treat your customers like crap and expect to survive.

The employee attitude (talking about flight crews here) has also had a very noticable change. You abuse people long enough, like management at NWA has it's own people, and it's going to be reflected in how your employees do thier jobs. These folks are not happy, it's obvious to the most casual observer that they are not having fun going to work. I just don't know if that's the kind of place you want to hang your hat right now. I hate to be that harsh, but it's how I feel. I hope they can turn things around and be successful. I live near MSP and depend on them to get me where I'm going, but unless management at NWA realize how much they have turned off customers and made the entire crew force unhappy---and then tries to turn that around with real change, not just words---I would really avoid considering employment there. Just my two cents.

Jolly

Given the choice which would you do?

NWA made 1.3 billion last year and plans to hire like crazy. With it's monopoly hubs, huge Asian presence, and shoestring budget, it will probably plod on until it merges with someone (Delta?) The DC-9s are going away, but huge attrition should make up for the airframe loss. All signs point to the Compass E-175s eventually being flown by mainline.

UAL: Undevoted management, huge labor trouble, losing money, moderate Asian presence, fierce competition in its largest hub. But great potential with the right management team. Great group of employees I fit in well with. Lots of great contacts. My hometown airline. Titanic watch, or hit rock bottom?

So what would you do? Please no "are you nuts, they both suck" comments, because we've already heard all of that here. If you had to choose one of the other, which would you choose and why?

N2rotation
09-23-2007, 10:03 AM
And on a side note, I do disagree with you regarding your Compass E-175 statement, though I wish it weren't so. Any regional jet that gets larger and larger only delays my transition to a legacy. Too bad most people (I'm not referring to you) don't seem to grasp that.

I agree. I saw a compass e175 the other day and I truly can`t believe how large it is and why people consider compass a regional. It's one thing to see a 76 seat jet flown by a regional for RESPECTFUL wages but its another thing for them to be flown at 50 seat RJ wages.

All airline pilots really do need to grasp the fact that the fast growing 50 to 100 seat market is hurting the hopes of any regional pilot looking to get a job at the majors. ALPA“s stance seems to be... let it happen.

aircraftdriver
09-23-2007, 10:43 AM
Given the choice which would you do?

NWA made 1.3 billion last year and plans to hire like crazy. With it's monopoly hubs, huge Asian presence, and shoestring budget, it will probably plod on until it merges with someone (Delta?) The DC-9s are going away, but huge attrition should make up for the airframe loss. All signs point to the Compass E-175s eventually being flown by mainline.

UAL: Undevoted management, huge labor trouble, losing money, moderate Asian presence, fierce competition in its largest hub. But great potential with the right management team. Great group of employees I fit in well with. Lots of great contacts. My hometown airline. Titanic watch, or hit rock bottom?

So what would you do? Please no "are you nuts, they both suck" comments, because we've already heard all of that here. If you had to choose one of the other, which would you choose and why?

Go to UA since you think you'll fit in better. Otherwise, I think NW has a better future, however that being said, UA never ceases to amaze me. They've got staying power for all sorts of situations.

I do not think NW will merge with Delta. I think NW "merge" plans are in the acquisition of MidWest (through TPG deal), and enhanced code shares.

I also think NW will book extraordinary income at some point in the future through the IPO of Compass or Mesaba.. which will undoubtedly provide them with alot of cash and some income for providing this regional lift. But, since there is a apparent pilot shortage, perhaps CPZ will become part of NW which will be great for LIFE and myself - so long as we don't have to see year 1 NW pay!

Purpltail
09-23-2007, 10:45 AM
All airline pilots really do need to grasp the fact that the fast growing 50 to 100 seat market is hurting the hopes of any regional pilot looking to get a job at the majors. ALPA“s stance seems to be... let it happen.

How is ALPA suppose to stop it??? They don't run an airline, they run the Union.

BoilerUP
09-23-2007, 11:23 AM
How is ALPA suppose to stop it??? They don't run an airline, they run the Union.

And pilots comprise the union...a fact many forget. After all, its easier to blame an entity for your problems than yourself.

Mainline pilots, not ALPA National, sold scope on 70/90 seat jets for various reasons in and out of BK. That scope is gone, and those jobs will likely never return to the mainline. The entry-level mainline aircraft is now the top-level regional aircraft.

What's the "solution" to this? There isn't one, most certainly not a quick, easy, and cheap solution. Legacy pilots must absolutely refuse to give up scope any further, and regional pilots must absolutely be willing to fight and strike for payrates and workrules more befitting aircraft of that size.

Working together and supporting each other through unity is the ONLY way to effect positive change...pointing fingers or spreading blame won't do anything.

BoilerUP
09-23-2007, 11:23 AM
Oh yeah...it seems from everything I've read NWA currently has better work rules than United currently does.

SCRWDbyMGMT
09-24-2007, 10:08 PM
I have been a NWA pilot for almost 12 years. I can't vouch for anything at UAL but, I can unequivocally state that the NWA work environment is dispicable. The "general" status in the cockpit is deeply divided. Everyone was effected by the bankruptcy. However, NO ONE WAS SHAFTED AS BADLY AS THOSE SPORTING 3 STRIPES!!!!! Capts. will be able to get by on their frozen pensions. First Officers however, will be working at K-Mart to feed themselves.

To begin with, there are three distinct NWA pilot groups. The "Red Book" (pre-merger NWA pilots) "Green Book", (Merged pilots) and "Blue Book" (post merger new-hire pilots). NWA ALPA is owned and operated by the Red Book wide body pilots. EVERYTHING is for the benefit of the wide body pilot at the expense of the narrow body pilots, particularly narrow body F/O's. Where else can a wide body Flight Engineer (mostly Ropes) earn more than a 757 F/O?? Additionally, SENIOR Red Book wide body Capts. have filed a law suit to prevent a 401K Defined Contribution program that would be especially beneficial to the junior pilots that lost the most in terms of retirement benefits.

Granted, UAL pilots lost ALL of their pension to the PBGC. However, this places ALL UAL pilots on the same playing field in terms of pension. NWA on the other hand is DEEPLY DIVIDED. We have had fist fights on the property. It's that bad!!

And, believe me when I state that NWA management has only just begun to defile their employees. There is more to come. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES TRUST NWA ON ANYTHING!!

Go to UA! Hopefully they will be smart enough to dump ALPA and establish an effective work environment.

newKnow
09-24-2007, 10:58 PM
I don't trust them either but, I'm not so sure things are better at UAL. From what I understand things are somewhat divided at UAL, too. Widebody v. Narrowbody (737, A-320).

Personally, I think we should take over the union. All we have to do is run, blue bookers are the largest percentage now,,,,

As far as management: they only can do what we let them. Look at what the UAW is doing.

INAV8OR
09-25-2007, 05:04 AM
ALPA“s stance seems to be... let it happen.[/B]
I have been scooter trash for about 10 yrs. and all I can say is ALPA doesn't give a rip about RJ guys. Doesn't ALPA have to sign off on the RJ contracts too, yes. So, why would they sign off on some of the POS contracts out there? ALPA is a giant money making machine all they want is membership and they help those that help them the most-the guys making over 6 figures that can pump more money into the machine. Now ALPA is good with safety but that is about it. Just look at the none alpa airlines, SWA, AA, and ups all 3 are tops in my book. Plus look at all the alpa guys that are getting voted out. So, alpa is not worth my time...

jsled
09-25-2007, 05:22 AM
Given the choice which would you do?

NWA made 1.3 billion last year and plans to hire like crazy. With it's monopoly hubs, huge Asian presence, and shoestring budget, it will probably plod on until it merges with someone (Delta?) The DC-9s are going away, but huge attrition should make up for the airframe loss. All signs point to the Compass E-175s eventually being flown by mainline.

UAL: Undevoted management, huge labor trouble, losing money, moderate Asian presence, fierce competition in its largest hub. But great potential with the right management team. Great group of employees I fit in well with. Lots of great contacts. My hometown airline. Titanic watch, or hit rock bottom?

So what would you do? Please no "are you nuts, they both suck" comments, because we've already heard all of that here. If you had to choose one of the other, which would you choose and why?


Good luck on your decision. Just to clear a thing or two up.....Go to ATW and see who has the bigger asian presence as far as rpm's go. You will be surprised. UAL has made money for the last 2 quarters, and generated a TON of cash. Everything else you mention is spot on. Again, good luck.

Palmtree Pilot
09-25-2007, 05:58 AM
I have been scooter trash for about 10 yrs. and all I can say is ALPA doesn't give a rip about RJ guys. Doesn't ALPA have to sign off on the RJ contracts too, yes. So, why would they sign off on some of the POS contracts out there? ALPA is a giant money making machine all they want is membership and they help those that help them the most-the guys making over 6 figures that can pump more money into the machine. Now ALPA is good with safety but that is about it. Just look at the none alpa airlines, SWA, AA, and ups all 3 are tops in my book. Plus look at all the alpa guys that are getting voted out. So, alpa is not worth my time...

They sign off on POS contracts all of the time! Saw it happen personally.

No flame, but why is anyone considering either of the POS airlines. I just don't get it. All it is doing is fueling the low pay and poor QOL. It is the same thing as the $h!tier regionals only able hire 250 hour guys.

Is it one of those... "I've always dreamed of flying for United", or "My father flew for NWA" things?

A lot of people on here b!tch and b!tch about their POS airlines and then decide to move on to the next POS. We all know ALPA and Teamsters aren't going to make any big changes in the airline pilot QOL, and with a recession POSSIBLY on the horizon, the only thing they are going to do now is help lessen(maybe) are the next round of concessions.

Pilots need to quit taking these $h!ty jobs. Sombody please explain.

PtP

SaltyDog
09-25-2007, 06:14 AM
Given the choice which would you do?

NWA made 1.3 billion last year and plans to hire like crazy. With it's monopoly hubs, huge Asian presence, and shoestring budget, it will probably plod on until it merges with someone (Delta?) The DC-9s are going away, but huge attrition should make up for the airframe loss. All signs point to the Compass E-175s eventually being flown by mainline.

UAL: Undevoted management, huge labor trouble, losing money, moderate Asian presence, fierce competition in its largest hub. But great potential with the right management team. Great group of employees I fit in well with. Lots of great contacts. My hometown airline. Titanic watch, or hit rock bottom?

So what would you do? Please no "are you nuts, they both suck" comments, because we've already heard all of that here. If you had to choose one of the other, which would you choose and why?

Neutral, empirical observation: I'd go with UAL if presented with this choice. Why? I have buds at both, the NWA friends are extremely bitter to point that some looking to leave (one is a 9 Capt trying to get to UPS) and nothing positive to say. My UAL buds though bitter, seem more optimistic and most I know who were furloughed and hired at UPS won't return, but some don't completely exclude the possibility either. That it isn't completely out of the picture says volumes to me.
Fellow crewmembers have much input in enjoyment factor coming to work. You believe you fit in and it is a hometown airline, that pulls alot toward UAL.

SCRWDbyMGMT
09-25-2007, 08:27 AM
Just to add support to SaltyDog. As you know NWA is hiring. In August they hired "in house". They were trained and put on the line in late August. NWA management happily announced that they put "27 new pilots on the line!". What they did not tell you was that in August there were 37 resignations and 50 requests for early retirement. We have people quiting in the middle of a trips! Can you honestly say that sounds like a sound work environment?
Also, in the first 2 weeks of accepting applications NWA management happily announced that they had received "over 1200 applications!". What they don't tell you is that the last time they hired they received over 10,000 applications in 7 days. The numbers alone tell you something.

Don't risk the aggravation! I highly recommend against NWA!!

newKnow
09-25-2007, 09:38 AM
Good luck on your decision. Just to clear a thing or two up.....Go to ATW and see who has the bigger asian presence as far as rpm's go. You will be surprised. UAL has made money for the last 2 quarters, and generated a TON of cash. Everything else you mention is spot on. Again, good luck.


Yeah, UAL is just as big in Asia as NWA, probably a little bigger. There are times when you are over there in NRT and all you see are UAL -400's and 777's. Then they all fly away and the NWA flights come in.

I believe the only additional flights that NWA have other there are the flights to Siapan, Guam, Pusan, and Guangzhou. UAL probably has more mainland flights to Japan. But, when you add the NWA cargo flights in it probably is a wash. I think. :)

FlyByCable
09-25-2007, 12:38 PM
Neutral, empirical observation: I'd go with UAL if presented with this choice. Why? I have buds at both, the NWA friends are extremely bitter to point that some looking to leave (one is a 9 Capt trying to get to UPS) and nothing positive to say. My UAL buds though bitter, seem more optimistic and most I know who were furloughed and hired at UPS won't return, but some don't completely exclude the possibility either. That it isn't completely out of the picture says volumes to me.
Fellow crewmembers have much input in enjoyment factor coming to work. You believe you fit in and it is a hometown airline, that pulls alot toward UAL.


It says more of what a crappy company UPS is to work for.

Eric Stratton
09-25-2007, 07:16 PM
They sign off on POS contracts all of the time! Saw it happen personally.

No flame, but why is anyone considering either of the POS airlines. I just don't get it. All it is doing is fueling the low pay and poor QOL. It is the same thing as the $h!tier regionals only able hire 250 hour guys.

Is it one of those... "I've always dreamed of flying for United", or "My father flew for NWA" things?

A lot of people on here b!tch and b!tch about their POS airlines and then decide to move on to the next POS. We all know ALPA and Teamsters aren't going to make any big changes in the airline pilot QOL, and with a recession POSSIBLY on the horizon, the only thing they are going to do now is help lessen(maybe) are the next round of concessions.

Pilots need to quit taking these $h!ty jobs. Sombody please explain.

PtP


new pilots have nothing to do with the contract in place at established carriers. it is the current employees that have set the bar so low. virgin and skybus is a different story while airtran and jetblue have done nothing but help lower the bar to it's current level.

Justin Case
09-25-2007, 07:37 PM
Go with UAL. DEN beats DTW any time of the year. I would be happier with UAL's cash-in-hand B plan.

RobLAX
09-25-2007, 08:48 PM
UAL all the way!

Bri85
09-25-2007, 09:19 PM
I think NW have the largest A330 fleet in the world w/ 32 a/c? I also hear the pay is the worst out all majors, and by the end of the year a new pay raise is on the works.

SaltyDog
09-25-2007, 09:54 PM
It says more of what a crappy company UPS is to work for.

:D I take it as money ain't that important to 'em :D

SCRWDbyMGMT
09-26-2007, 06:06 AM
NWA is the LOWEST paying carrier out there. Even Jet Blue, Spirit, and Sun Country pay more!!!

BoilerUP
09-26-2007, 06:16 AM
NWA is the LOWEST paying carrier out there.

NWA's DC-9 FO pay through at least year 3 is better than Airways' 737/A320 pay. Its better than CAL's small narrowbody pay as well.

First year pay is much better at JBU, but NWA has it beat beyond that. Spirit is a similar situation to JBU when compared to NWA's DC-9 FO rates.

United on the 737/A320 pays $2/hr more the first year and is higher year 3 and beyond, but NWA has it beat or equal on the A320 FO scale.

I've been told the NWA still has pretty decent work rules including trip/duty rig, minimum average day credit, and bid-trip schedule guarantee which is quite a bit better than some other carriers that are hiring. Is that accurate, SCRWD?

newKnow
09-26-2007, 07:49 AM
I think NW have the largest A330 fleet in the world w/ 32 a/c? I also hear the pay is the worst out all majors, and by the end of the year a new pay raise is on the works.


Bri85,

Where did you hear we were getting a raise?

newKnow
09-26-2007, 08:07 AM
NWA's DC-9 FO pay through at least year 3 is better than Airways' 737/A320 pay. Its better than CAL's small narrowbody pay as well.

First year pay is much better at JBU, but NWA has it beat beyond that. Spirit is a similar situation to JBU when compared to NWA's DC-9 FO rates.

United on the 737/A320 pays $2/hr more the first year and is higher year 3 and beyond, but NWA has it beat or equal on the A320 FO scale.

I've been told the NWA still has pretty decent work rules including trip/duty rig, minimum average day credit, and bid-trip schedule guarantee which is quite a bit better than some other carriers that are hiring. Is that accurate, SCRWD?

Boiler,

The work rules are better. They are not as good as they were before this crappy contract, but better than they were earlier this year. Earlier we were working 90+ hours a month, losing time if we went under on any legs, and not getting time and 1/2 for every hour over 80.

Believe me, I was like SCREWED until I had a UAL jumpseater onboard, who told us they don't have minimum days and are flying 94 hours a month, which I still don't believe. If it's true, they have worse work rules (on the 737 and 320), but better pay. So, I think at this point both are the same. They both suck, it's just a matter of who is more willing to kick some but like the UAW and make it better.

SCREW's observations about the mass exodus are right from what I've heard. 60+ per month are leaving. This can be viewed to be good or bad. Maybe things are so bad here that people are just flat out quitting to go work for Walmart. Or, maybe people are leaving so they can get their frozen pensions from NWA to work on another pension from another company. Either way, movement has been brisk for the past year. At this point, all of the DC-9 FO's I fly with are shunning the 320 to go to the 757. The last one I flew with was about 300 numbers from the bottom of the senority list and said he was about 10 spots from getting the 757. I didn't check, but I'm sure he's right. Right seat of the 320 is probably going to go to the new hires as well, if it hasn't already. So things suck here, just not as much as it did before...........


newKnow

7576FO
09-26-2007, 08:56 AM
Given the choice which would you do?

NWA made 1.3 billion last year and plans to hire like crazy. With it's monopoly hubs, huge Asian presence, and shoestring budget, it will probably plod on until it merges with someone (Delta?) The DC-9s are going away, but huge attrition should make up for the airframe loss. All signs point to the Compass E-175s eventually being flown by mainline.

UAL: Undevoted management, huge labor trouble, losing money, moderate Asian presence, fierce competition in its largest hub. But great potential with the right management team. Great group of employees I fit in well with. Lots of great contacts. My hometown airline. Titanic watch, or hit rock bottom?

So what would you do? Please no "are you nuts, they both suck" comments, because we've already heard all of that here. If you had to choose one of the other, which would you choose and why?


John,

Respectfully here, On which Planet did NWA make 1.3 Billion dollars last year?
Sarcastically speaking have tried Eastern or Pan Am?

Seriously, if NWA made 1.3 billion last year please tell me. Someone tell me.

I fly for AA we made 234 million last year. Our management awarded themselves 174 million. That's right our top 900 managers including Cheif Pilots, Flight Attendant supervisors stuck their hands in the cookie jar and took almost all of it home.

I digress, I wish the best for NWA pilots, but I must have been in a coma for 2006. Cause I do not remember hearing NWA make 1.3 bil.

UAL if you're young.

And i'm not making fun of you here. Maybe I missed it.

RobLAX
09-26-2007, 09:06 AM
UAL has made a ton this year!!!

newKnow
09-26-2007, 09:19 AM
John,

Respectfully here, On which Planet did NWA make 1.3 Billion dollars last year?
Sarcastically speaking have tried Eastern or Pan Am?

Seriously, if NWA made 1.3 billion last year please tell me. Someone tell me.

I fly for AA we made 234 million last year. Our management awarded themselves 174 million. That's right our top 900 managers including Cheif Pilots, Flight Attendant supervisors stuck their hands in the cookie jar and took almost all of it home.

I digress, I wish the best for NWA pilots, but I must have been in a coma for 2006. Cause I do not remember hearing NWA make 1.3 bil.

UAL if you're young.

And i'm not making fun of you here. Maybe I missed it.

They did some post bankrupcy adjusting of the books that amounted to like a billion dollars or something. It wasn't real money. Real money is reserved for management.

SWAcapt
09-26-2007, 09:24 AM
Perhaps this will help.

Northwest Airlines Reports Full Year 2006 Results

EAGAN, Minn.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Feb. 6, 2007--Northwest Airlines Corporation (Pink Sheets:NWACQ) today reported a full year 2006 pre-tax profit of $301 million before reorganization items which compares to a full year 2005 pre-tax loss of $1.38 billion before reorganization items. Including reorganization items, Northwest reported a full year 2006 net loss of $2.8 billion versus a $2.56 billion net loss for the full year 2005.

Here is the link to the full article:
http://ir.nwa.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=111021&p=irol-newsArticle&t=Regular&id=959376&

IHateMgmt
09-26-2007, 10:31 AM
I remember seeing an ariticle not too long ago posting various airline profits. NWA and UAL were pretty close to each other at around $300 mil, I believe.

penguin22
09-26-2007, 08:26 PM
the NWA business class seats on the 744s to Asia are a thousand times better than UA's

does that help?

StripAlert
09-27-2007, 04:11 AM
They did some post bankrupcy adjusting of the books that amounted to like a billion dollars or something. It wasn't real money. Real money is reserved for management.

Quote of the day. LMAO.

jsled
09-27-2007, 08:09 AM
the NWA business class seats on the 744s to Asia are a thousand times better than UA's

does that help?

http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2007/07/23/united-airlines-rolls-out-new-business-class-seats/ :)