Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




WatchThis!
09-25-2007, 11:59 PM
UAL board looking at asset sales

Spinning off units could raise $16 billion

By Julie Johnsson
Tribune staff reporter
September 26, 2007


The board of United Airlines parent UAL Corp. is mulling spinning off several key assets, including the airline's popular frequent-flier program, as directors contemplate shrinking the carrier while substantially increasing its cash stash, United sources said Tuesday.

Among the options that United may consider, according to analysts, are shrinking its real estate portfolio, which includes the 66 acres that its former headquarters in Elk Grove Township sits on, and selling or leasing overseas routes, landing slots and airport gates. The Chicago-based airline also is exploring divesting much of its maintenance unit, known as United Services, as part of an effort to convert assets into cash, the Tribune previously reported.

Whether or not firm decisions will be made when the directors meet this week in San Francisco is not clear. United's directors meet each September to survey the airline's business environment, study its operations and discuss strategy. The three-day session this year, however, also is expected to include debate on large-scale spinoffs that would pare down the airline and at the same time build up its cash reserves.

A United spokeswoman said the company doesn't comment on board matters.

United Chief Executive Glenn Tilton told analysts during an earnings call in July that the airline was looking into strategic options for Mileage Plus, United's 45 million-member frequent-flier program.

And United last month confirmed to the Tribune that it was mulling a sale or joint venture of its giant maintenance facility at San Francisco International Airport. The airline has set up a detailed analysis of that business for potential partners seeking to do due diligence, says a source with knowledge of the company's plans.

Both moves represent a change in course for the second-largest U.S. airline, which until recently has seemed focused on building its business by pursuing a merger or acquisition. Tilton, a former oil industry executive, has been a vocal advocate of airline industry consolidation.

But mergers have been tough to pull off in the unpredictable airline industry. With few options to consolidate, Tilton may look to Plan B, analysts say.

"If you can't sell the company lock, stock and barrel, then maybe you look to sell it in parts," said Robert Mann, a consultant and principal with R.W. Mann & Co., based in Port Washington, N.Y.

Frank Boroch, an analyst with investment bank Bear Stearns, calculated in a July report that United could raise about $16 billion if it sought buyers or business partners for units that weren't integral to its core flight operations.

In the report, circulated widely within United as well as the airline industry, Boroch estimated that Mileage Plus, the second-largest frequent-flier program in the world, could attract about $7.5 billion from potential buyers, and United Services about $330 million.

He also valued the real estate portfolio at about $200 million and its international routes, domestic landing slots and airport gates at $2.2 billion.

"Now is the time when these units have a value that will decline at the end of the business cycle," said Mann. If United waits, he said, "it won't have an opportunity to do this again until when the next upswing occurs."

Doing so now would enable the highly leveraged airline to pay down debt and repair its balance sheet, pay shareholders a special dividend, build cash to help fund merger activity or perhaps attract a private-equity buyer, analysts say.

However, United's directors also will have to weigh potential benefits against the cost of losing direct control over divisions that long have supported its operations. Mileage Plus, for example, generated $600 million in revenue for the airline in 2006; United Services brought in about $280 million, Boroch said.

In a recent briefing to analysts, United's management deemed Mileage Plus "a greater challenge to spin off," wrote Credit Suisse analyst Daniel McKenzie in a Sept. 19 note.

United executives admitted to analysts that they have run the maintenance division poorly as a business, according to McKenzie. He said he believes an outside partner could rapidly build up the business.


greedyairlineexec
09-26-2007, 06:10 AM
they could be doing a pre-emptive sale of assets: sell the routes and gates that overlap that of your "future merger parter" to get max $$ now instead of doing a fire sale when the DOT mandates it. The sale of the frequent flier is something a lot of airlines have done and the partnership on the maintenance facility to avoid costly upgrades and find outside customers is nothing new either.

Seems like a way of raising cash and positioning themselves properly from a DOT legal standpoint for buying a competitor, not "the end of United".

It's also a great way to increase cash on hand and reduce future liabilities therefore improving short term stock performance and making lots of $$$ for upper management stock option program.

MikeB525
09-26-2007, 06:24 AM
Question: How exactly is a frequent flier program a tangible comodity? How does someone else "own" an airline's frequent flier program? What happens to the people holding miles? Does this new "owner" then control how many miles it takes to fly SFO-IAD, etc?


jsled
09-26-2007, 06:29 AM
UAL selling assets - the gutting begins >>>>

Oh come now Watch This....we get it, ok? We know you are bitter. You were furloughed from UAL, you got yourself a good freight job and decided not to come back. Just be happy because UAL is here to stay. This article is nothing new. UAL still has routes/gates/authority that it has not used in years. It's not like they are selling the pacific routes. And just look how Air Canada benefited from selling its FF program. Good luck in your new career.

newKnow
09-26-2007, 07:43 AM
jsled,

You're killing me!! (ahh, and probably right) Some people have to validate their decision by looking for the crash in the rear view mirrior. I see a lot of that on the NWA posts. I think it's just pre-merger activity. Good luck. :)

RobLAX
09-26-2007, 09:10 AM
I agree with you jsled. UAL is not going anywhere.

HSLD
09-26-2007, 09:11 AM
UAL still has routes/gates/authority that it has not used in years. It's not like they are selling the pacific routes.

Any idea which routes UA is looking to sell?

I've often wondered about the value of a route that's not being used, most carriers don't fly unused authority because they are not profitable. Just curious if you had any insight as to which routes would yield enough at auction to cause the airline to sell (and why a buyer would want an unprofitable route).

One asset that wasn't mentioned in the article was the Pilot Flight Training Center in Denver. Word is that (most) all contract training has ended and the facility is under capacity. There appear to be parallels in the operation of the SF maintenance facility and the pilot training center, any ideas there?

Lambourne
09-26-2007, 09:30 AM
Watch This,

I am not familiar with you but sounds like you are former UAL. Looks like not having you here is a good thing. You might want to rethink the "gutting" comment. Have you heard of Lufthansa Technik? Look it up. You will see parallels to what is happening with the MOC. Also, selling MP would be good thing also. As for gates/slots. Do you know we still have a large amount of route authority left over from the Pan Am Europe slots and some unused Pacific routes. If there is value in UNUSED assets then why not get that value from them? Also, the property by EXO was said to be on the block months ago as a result of the move of the offices to Whacker Dr.

Putting 16billion in the bank would make UAL a shopper for pretty much any company in the world. Combine the 16billion to the continued increase in the bank balance of cash on hand and you have some formidable figures to buy another carrier. So don't be surprised if the merger that takes place still has the tulip flying the flag versus the other carriers name.

Maybe it is the late nights and starting over that are hurting your ability to think clearly. It is OK to be a miserable git. Not sure if you are at FedEx but I know the last FDX crew I got to listen to on the bus in NRT and at the "Bon" were far from happy. In fact they were two of the most miserable, loud and obnoxious people I have ever had to endure sitting in the same bus/room with. From the moaning and groaning they were doing you would think things were not so rosy on the Freight Front.

FlyByCable
09-26-2007, 10:13 AM
Watch This,

I am not familiar with you but sounds like you are former UAL. Looks like not having you here is a good thing. You might want to rethink the "gutting" comment. Have you heard of Lufthansa Technik? Look it up. You will see parallels to what is happening with the MOC. Also, selling MP would be good thing also. As for gates/slots. Do you know we still have a large amount of route authority left over from the Pan Am Europe slots and some unused Pacific routes. If there is value in UNUSED assets then why not get that value from them? Also, the property by EXO was said to be on the block months ago as a result of the move of the offices to Whacker Dr.

Putting 16billion in the bank would make UAL a shopper for pretty much any company in the world. Combine the 16billion to the continued increase in the bank balance of cash on hand and you have some formidable figures to buy another carrier. So don't be surprised if the merger that takes place still has the tulip flying the flag versus the other carriers name.

Maybe it is the late nights and starting over that are hurting your ability to think clearly. It is OK to be a miserable git. Not sure if you are at FedEx but I know the last FDX crew I got to listen to on the bus in NRT and at the "Bon" were far from happy. In fact they were two of the most miserable, loud and obnoxious people I have ever had to endure sitting in the same bus/room with. From the moaning and groaning they were doing you would think things were not so rosy on the Freight Front.



Yeah, they where probably *****ing about having to get their lazy rear ends in gear and do something with all the money they make vs. just having it sit in their checking accounts.

luv757
09-26-2007, 10:26 AM
Not to hijack the thread but how is the hiring going at UA? any word on what the new guys are getting for equip/domicile? future plans? just curious, I have some buddies that are looking and with everyone starting to hire again I'd like to give them some info. Thanks!

newKnow
09-26-2007, 10:45 AM
Looks like the thread is about to become a Pax v. Cargo debate anyway,,,,

Lambourne
09-26-2007, 12:07 PM
Not to hijack the thread but how is the hiring going at UA? any word on what the new guys are getting for equip/domicile? future plans? just curious, I have some buddies that are looking and with everyone starting to hire again I'd like to give them some info. Thanks!

The first group of new hires started this week. I think they were all DCA and maybe a few ORD bases. The airplanes were the 737 and 320.

lambourne

luv757
09-26-2007, 12:10 PM
The first group of new hires started this week. I think they were all DCA and maybe a few ORD bases. The airplanes were the 737 and 320.

lambourne

Wow, DCA? I thought that was more senior. I guess you have to cover all three airports? Thanks!

Lambourne
09-26-2007, 12:14 PM
Yeah, they where probably *****ing about having to get their lazy rear ends in gear and do something with all the money they make vs. just having it sit in their checking accounts.

Actually they were griping about many things. One in particular was the hotel in some city. Seems the MEM pilots were in one and these guys, I am guessing ANC, were in another. The one guy was awakened at 2pm (the horror 2PM) by a noise in the hallway. He said he called the front desk and told THEM to call FedEx and tell them he would not be able to "fly their multimillion dollar jet that night because the hotel was too noisy". We had fun with that line for the next several days. Pretentious? MOI?

All I can say is that I have not heard that much griping since the last time I had dinner with the Flight Attendants.

L

jsled
09-26-2007, 02:29 PM
Any idea which routes UA is looking to sell?

I've often wondered about the value of a route that's not being used, most carriers don't fly unused authority because they are not profitable. Just curious if you had any insight as to which routes would yield enough at auction to cause the airline to sell (and why a buyer would want an unprofitable route).

One asset that wasn't mentioned in the article was the Pilot Flight Training Center in Denver. Word is that (most) all contract training has ended and the facility is under capacity. There appear to be parallels in the operation of the SF maintenance facility and the pilot training center, any ideas there?


No inside info from me. I do know that the contract training is gone. It was subbed out to Alteon from what I heard. I was there in June/July, my feeling was between UAL and Alteon the sims were pretty full.. I don't know if all this asset selling is a good idea. But if you look at the successful airline models out there, it seems that the fewer the employees per a/c the better. UAL has went from 100K to 55K employees without pulling out of too many markets. Now, you sell off or partner up the SFO MOC and possibly TK (although that would be sticky) and just how much more efficiency do you gain? Plus the cash would be nice if used for debt reduction or expansion and not to enrich the shareholders (management). I'm just saying...:)

Whaledriver101
09-26-2007, 03:08 PM
I guess United needs money.

jsled
09-26-2007, 03:50 PM
Yep, like 5B is not enough.

bigfatdaddy
09-26-2007, 05:21 PM
Does United currently have a fleet renewal plan? A revision to thier bussiness model? If so does the sale of routes foreshadow what type of equipment/bussiness model that is under consideration? All questions from one on the outside lloking in.

jdt30
09-26-2007, 07:07 PM
http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.aspx?symbol=US:CAL&feed=AP&date=20070924&id=7520639

I've figured it out. Why pay to keep your name on an arena when you know you'll be going with UAL's livery in a few months.:rolleyes:

Lambourne
09-27-2007, 04:52 AM
Watch This,

Does this indicate the "gutting" of American Airlines??????

Nice one, Nostradamus.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUKL2781704820070927?rpc=44

And now for your next trick?

Adlerdriver
09-27-2007, 05:34 AM
Actually they were griping about many things. One in particular was the hotel in some city. Seems the MEM pilots were in one and these guys, I am guessing ANC, were in another. The one guy was awakened at 2pm (the horror 2PM) by a noise in the hallway. He said he called the front desk and told THEM to call FedEx and tell them he would not be able to "fly their multimillion dollar jet that night because the hotel was too noisy". We had fun with that line for the next several days. Pretentious? MOI?

All I can say is that I have not heard that much griping since the last time I had dinner with the Flight Attendants.

L

Every airline has it's tools. I can't blame you for questioning the guy's method for venting his frustration and his plan for informing Fedex he was fatigued. I know I would. I'd also be laughing at the idiot for a while too.

I'm sure you remember the UAL 777 captain at IAD 4 or 5 years ago who ACARSed his displeasure to the station when his dessert failed to show up with the whipped topping on it. That ACARS message showed up on the wailing wall at ORD and we all had a good laugh.

Lambourne
09-27-2007, 05:59 AM
Every airline has it's tools. I can't blame you for questioning the guy's method for venting his frustration and his plan for informing Fedex he was fatigued. I know I would. I'd also be laughing at the idiot for a while too.

I'm sure you remember the UAL 777 captain at IAD 4 or 5 years ago who ACARSed his displeasure to the station when his dessert failed to show up with the whipped topping on it. That ACARS message showed up on the wailing wall at ORD and we all had a good laugh.


Can you produce a copy of the note? That is pure urban legend, it has been attributed to a IAD Capt, a SFO Capt and an ORD Capt. Also it has been every airplane from the rope start to the 737. You might want to fact check that one. Now we did have a Captain land short years ago because the crew meals were not boarded. I too have refused to depart because of meal issues. If it is part of the contract and was to be boarded and we (the crew, including F/A meals) are where we are supposed to be at the assigned time and flight and the company has not held up their end of the contract by not boarding the meals then we should ensure compliance with the agreement. The meals are not boarded for our entertainment but due to stage length and or departure time. The safety implications of being hungry can disable a link in the safety chain. Also the lack of blood sugar has other health implications that could impact the flight. Safety at all times and in all things.

Of course our best move was the Capt of the 777 that kept finding things wrong with the airplane on the IAD to CDG flight in the summer of 2000. (this was the summer of the US acquisition) The reason he was so intent on not getting off the gate was because Stephen Wolf was on board. The flight was delayed until the next morning due to legalities with the crew duty day and the Wolf was sent to CDG on US out of PHL (his own carrier at the time).

The Captain got 30 days of unpaid time off but he always said it was the best money he ever spent.

WatchThis!
09-27-2007, 08:37 AM
Watch This,

Does this indicate the "gutting" of American Airlines??????

Nice one, Nostradamus.


I think the term is "denial" my friend:) I don't wish you any ill will, but your management team is dismantling your airline.

If you read the article you linked, an analyst quoted as saying:

"I don't know why they're trying to get them to spin it off, because they already have so much cash its ridiculous," said CreditSights analyst Roger King. "It makes no sense to me."

UAL with 5B cash is looking to spin off revenue producing assets that could yield as much as 16B additional cash. What BOD would allow management to sit on 20B (or more) of cash?

Selling assets can provide a short term gain for shareholders when the cash is used for stock by back, or to float the stock value through reducing debt. The short term gain however is stripping long term revenue tools away from the enterprise. What does that do for UAL during the next down cycle?

UAL has abandoned it's UAL services brand (training, maintenance, etc), has no jets on order, outsources as much flying as it can (domestically, and internationally), and now wants to sell more revenue producing assets.

I just don't see any of these moves as beneficial to the long term viability of the airline in it's current form.

I hope for the benefit of the fine men and women working there that I'm wrong.

captjns
09-27-2007, 08:59 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2007-09-25-china-flights_N.htm

The San Francisco-Guangzhou route would be a very good asset to sell. America West sold the Honolulu - Negoya route to NWA soon after they began operating the route... eventhough HP was operating that route at a loss.

newKnow
09-27-2007, 09:46 AM
WatchThis,

Maybe UAL is gearing up for a merger?

EDC757
09-27-2007, 09:55 AM
WatchThis,

Maybe UAL is gearing up for a merger?

It's just not going to happen. Ual would need two other smaller carriers to start a merger movement in the industry.

Lambourne
09-27-2007, 09:57 AM
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/travel/2007-09-25-china-flights_N.htm

The San Francisco-Guangzhou route would be a very good asset to sell. America West sold the Honolulu - Negoya route to NWA soon after they began operating the route... eventhough HP was operating that route at a loss.


Oh the oracle chimes in. Did you know one of the restrictions in the route awards was no transfer of awards for 5 years. So BUZZZZZZ, try again.

Lambourne
09-27-2007, 10:07 AM
.

If you read the article you linked, an analyst quoted as saying:


Selling assets can provide a short term gain for shareholders when the cash is used for stock by back, or to float the stock value through reducing debt. The short term gain however is stripping long term revenue tools away from the enterprise. What does that do for UAL during the next down cycle?

UAL has abandoned it's UAL services brand (training, maintenance, etc), has no jets on order, outsources as much flying as it can (domestically, and internationally), and now wants to sell more revenue producing assets.

I just don't see any of these moves as beneficial to the long term viability of the airline in it's current form.

I hope for the benefit of the fine men and women working there that I'm wrong.

I agree the airline will change from it current form. It will change via an acquisition with the 20Billion this would put in the coffers.

As for the orders. The only airplanes we are short on are the widebodies. The Airbus fleet is new enough to be usable for a longer period of time and the 737 fleet is the one that needs the quickest replacement. However, there is nothing out there that really beats the current aircraft in weight,cost. Whether or not you choose to listen to the rhetoric of the VP's, they have said numerous times that the first order will be for widebodies and it will come in the future. The argument has been not to have aircraft debt at the next downturn, which might be as soon as the FY08 if you believe the fuel prices and outlook.

I don't for a minute believe any company is bullet proof, but I do think your cheap shot is just that, a cheap shot. Many of the furloughed pilots that have returned are having trouble adapting to life on the inside, I sure wish many had chosen as you did and stayed away.

captjns
09-27-2007, 10:48 AM
Oh the oracle chimes in. Did you know one of the restrictions in the route awards was no transfer of awards for 5 years. So BUZZZZZZ, try again.

Hey Einstein... thats why UAL does not use Jacoby and Meyers. Did it ever occur to you in your two dimensional mind that restrictions can be amended and or abated by those who set such restrictions?

WatchThis!
09-27-2007, 12:40 PM
I agree the airline will change from it current form. It will change via an acquisition with the 20Billion this would put in the coffers.


I sincerely hope your right, really I am. I'm afraid that the cash will be used for a stock buy back and debt reduction.

As for a cheap shot, maybe so, but know that it's directed at UA management and not at you or United pilots. UA employees were raped of the ESOP, pensions, pay, work rules, and benefits and now are watching company assets peeled away.

I wish you the best, ALPA abandoning Jr. pilots by throwing out a contractual no-furlough clause was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Flyer00
09-27-2007, 04:06 PM
Selling assets can provide a short term gain for shareholders when the cash is used for stock by back, or to float the stock value through reducing debt. The short term gain however is stripping long term revenue tools away from the enterprise. What does that do for UAL during the next down cycle?

Interesting...since Tilton couldn't get a merger to happen to cash out the rest of his stock, maybe he's just trying to get the price up a bit higher this way so he can unload some more.

Adlerdriver
09-27-2007, 06:06 PM
Can you produce a copy of the note? That is pure urban legend, it has been attributed to a IAD Capt, a SFO Capt and an ORD Capt. Also it has been every airplane from the rope start to the 737. You might want to fact check that one.


I saw the photo copy of the ACARS message with my own eyes on the ORD wailing wall. It looked like any other ACARS message I've seen at UAL. Even had the little "ghost" lines picked up by the copier at the edge of the original paper. Seems like an awful lot of trouble to go through for a joke.
And, it was definitely an IAD 777 Capt because I looked up the flight # off the ACARS message. It was probably 2003-2003 timeframe but that's all the details I can manage.

Lambourne
09-27-2007, 07:41 PM
Hey Einstein... thats why UAL does not use Jacoby and Meyers. Did it ever occur to you in your two dimensional mind that restrictions can be amended and or abated by those who set such restrictions?


The Chinese set the restrictions NOT United. Look it up if you can.

Lambourne
09-27-2007, 07:44 PM
I wish you the best, ALPA abandoning Jr. pilots by throwing out a contractual no-furlough clause was the best thing that ever happened to me.

Yes, the no furlough clause.....Of course we ALPA pilots did cough up the COBRA for you, so you are welcome on that one.

But just for the record did not only UAL, but AA, NWA, CAL, US, DAL and many others FURLOUGH after 9/11???? What should we all have done to save you and all the other furloughed pilots?

The new generation just is not what we had back in the day.

REAL Pilot
09-27-2007, 09:34 PM
What should we all have done to save you and all the other furloughed pilots?

The new generation just is not what we had back in the day.

Two thoughts for discussion sake....

1)nothing could have "saved" the furloughees but "increasing productivity" by 6000 pilots flying an extra 10-20 hrs a month just dug the knife deeper-ratified by the previous generation

2)The current generation Captains do not resemble the Captains of 30 years ago either

mike734
09-27-2007, 09:37 PM
I remember when PanAm started selling everything.

REAL Pilot
09-27-2007, 09:47 PM
I remember when the Continental pilots practically destroyed the profession by surrendering.

I remember when the Southwest pilots practically destroyed the profession by working for peanuts

I remember when the American pilots gave us the B scale

I remember when nobody wanted to work freight

I remember when most Air Tran(Value Jet) pilots were scabs

I remember when the US Air MEC agreed to take Easterns 757s with the stipulation that no pilots would come with the jets. Nevermind that the rEAL pilots held the line and paid the ultimate sacrifice out of principle.

And the point is what....

captjns
09-27-2007, 10:27 PM
The Chinese set the restrictions NOT United. Look it up if you can.


Yes and being in China for some time and understanding how their system works, they will not permit an interuption to their economy if stability in growth cannot be maintained... thus to prevent progress in their economic growth changes to their doctrines as in the past will be made.

The five-year no-transfer period "would more accurately demonstrate an initial commitment" by an airline to a new market, and "would better illustrate an ability to successfully continue such service." The new policy will not be applied retroactively, and will also not apply in the case of airline mergers or acquisitions.


Thats how the real world works.

Enjoy your onboard cappacinos.

captjns
09-27-2007, 10:31 PM
But just for the record did not only UAL, but AA, NWA, CAL, US, DAL and many others FURLOUGH after 9/11???? What should we all have done to save you and all the other furloughed pilots?

For the record... if you anylize the balance an income statements of all majors well before 9/11, you will notice that they were loosing money by trying to put their competitors out of business. 9/11 was the final impetus in the coldron. Like in the 70s, airlines were interviewing, and hiring right up to the day that they pushed their little red furlough buttons.

Adlerdriver
09-28-2007, 06:11 AM
Yes, the no furlough clause.....Of course we ALPA pilots did cough up the COBRA for you, so you are welcome on that one.

How do you know he used COBRA? I never touched a dime of the cobra $$ after I got furloughed. I spent a year and a half paying it just like everyone else on the property but was fortunate enough not need that help after my Aug 2003 furlough.
So, before you pat yourself on the back too hard, keep in mind that many of those who eventually did use those funds spent a while contributing $$ as well.

Lambourne
09-28-2007, 06:37 AM
How do you know he used COBRA?

I don't know that he used them. But there was never a furlough group in the past that received COBRA. I did not mind paying it one bit but the accusation that we did nothing for the furloughed pilots is another cheap shot by watch this.

I wonder how "watch this" would have reacted had he been on the dividing line and not had been furloughed? Would he fill the same if it came down to him staying and flying or getting furloughed?

Also, I had many months of pay reduced due to the inability to exceed the cap by more than +1 minute or pay reduced due to carry in because we agreed NOT to due to the furloughed pilots. I don't JRM or SRM, I try to take care of my crew, including F/A's and fly a safe airplane. Not sure what else the furloughed pilots wanted? From the post I read on our MEC forum it seems the furloughed pilots expectations are going continued to be unmet.

Can we send some of these guys that came back over to Fed Ex? They will mesh very well.

vladimr
09-28-2007, 06:55 AM
UAL selling assets - the gutting begins >>>>

Oh come now Watch This....we get it, ok? We know you are bitter. You were furloughed from UAL, you got yourself a good freight job and decided not to come back. Just be happy because UAL is here to stay. This article is nothing new. UAL still has routes/gates/authority that it has not used in years. It's not like they are selling the pacific routes. And just look how Air Canada benefited from selling its FF program. Good luck in your new career.


Dude take it easy. I think you are the bitter one. If you need to keep telling yourself that selling off assets AKA- pan am. twa and the like is somehow a good thing go ahead have a blast. When every airline is updating their fleets with newer more efficient airplanes and youy guys are selling assets and have vertually no fuel hedges in place I can't for the life figure out how this could be a good thing.

Adlerdriver
09-28-2007, 08:43 AM
Must....stop.....typing.......and........getting.. ....sucked.....into......this.......stupid.......t hread.
I don't think I can. Oh well.

I don't know that he used them. But there was never a furlough group in the past that received COBRA. I did not mind paying it one bit but the accusation that we did nothing for the furloughed pilots is another cheap shot by watch this.

You're right. ALPA did step up and a blanket statement like "abandoning jr. pilots" is not correct. Once again, however, it's not like every furloughed pilot who used the goodwill of the ALPA bros re: COBRA went out on day one on 9/12 and sucked that teat dry. Many stayed as active pilots awaiting furlough and threw $$ in the pot for many months or even over a year before they hit the streets.


I wonder how "watch this" would have reacted had he been on the dividing line and not had been furloughed? Would he fill the same if it came down to him staying and flying or getting furloughed?

Feel the same about what? Getting abandoned? Probably so. I don't agree completely with the abandoned view, as I've said. I think, as pilots, UAL MEC folks wanted to be in control as much as possible. So, there is a tendency to want to remain a part of the process at the expense of standing their ground (as is evident in the age 60 situation). The UAL MEC chose not to hold the line on the no-furlough clause because they felt it was a lost battle based on similar events at Delta. They caved and tried to stay involved in the outcome rather than hold firm and leave the final results up to a third party. Right? Wrong? I guess that depends on your point of view. They did the same thing with the pension. Dumped it voluntarily and stayed involved with the outcome rather than hold out for the results of a real battle. I don't know how that really turned out because I was already gone. If you're happy with the end result, than maybe that's a good strategy.


Also, I had many months of pay reduced due to the inability to exceed the cap by more than +1 minute or pay reduced due to carry in because we agreed NOT to due to the furloughed pilots. I don't JRM or SRM, I try to take care of my crew, including F/A's and fly a safe airplane. Not sure what else the furloughed pilots wanted? From the post I read on our MEC forum it seems the furloughed pilots expectations are going continued to be unmet.

You can't blame the returning pilots for their bitterness. They may not be directing it in the right direction. I'm sure it will eventually diminish.

It kind of sounds like you’re harboring a little bitterness toward ALPA as well. The reduction in pay due to the cap or carry-in was a result of ALPA actions/policies either voted on by the members or their elected reps. If you’re going to hold that up as a battle scar worthy of sympathy, maybe you need to cut the returning furloughees a little slack in their displeasure with ALPA’s policies too.

For the many Captains (like you) who did/do what they can to minimize the pain of the junior, there are more than a few who deserve the wrath of those they helped out the door.
I flew with a Bus captain who decided to drop the following on me at 18K on descent into DEN one night in early 2003 (6 months before my furlough): "Some guys have a problem with me picking up open time and flying extra. I don't see what their problem is. It's in the contract"

Since I didn't have time to comment before we got busy, I let it go. Last leg of the trip that same night, DEN-ORD and I can't leave it alone. If I don't say something, I've given the guy tacit approval with my silence. So, I let him know that I am one of the guys with a problem with what he's doing. He get's defensive, of course. "What should we do - drop our flying down to 60 hours so you don't get furloughed?" No, how about just flying your line and not adding to it. "What, should we not trip trade?" No, trade all you want. If that ends up getting you a commutable trip or better trip and you gain a few hours, no one is going to have a problem with that. When you get a 75 hour line with 14 days off and you turn it into an 85 hour line with 12 days off - that's where we'll have a problem. "But it's in the contract". The bottom line is: Just because it was in the contract, doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. 7-8 guys adding 10 hours a month to their line, is a whole line of flying.
The guy continued to disagree and we had a silent remainder of the leg to ORD. He was an idiot. He knew he was doing wrong and he was hoping a guy 6 months from furlough would give him the green light for some strange reason.


Can we send some of these guys that came back over to Fed Ex? They will mesh very well.

I'm not sure I get the veiled reference in this last shot. Do you really have to start down this road? I've been fairly pleasant so far. So, what? They will mesh at Fedex because of the "tool" you had to listen to on the Narita bus? Like I said, there are those at every airline.

Not that you really have the option to "send some of these guys" or we have the option to "take them" - but if we did, you can bet your a$$ they'd be some happy dudes. Trust me on that.

Cheers.
Maybe I'll DH on your aircraft some time. I do still try to buy tickets on the home team out of ORD when I can. I tried on my CDG deadhead a couple of weeks ago but it was only a 767(?wtf) and the ticket was $7500. CO got me there on a 777 for $2800. Just another customer's perspective, but you guys need to work on the price thing a little.

Lambourne
09-28-2007, 11:45 AM
Cheers.
Maybe I'll DH on your aircraft some time. I do still try to buy tickets on the home team out of ORD when I can. I tried on my CDG deadhead a couple of weeks ago but it was only a 767(?wtf) and the ticket was $7500. CO got me there on a 777 for $2800. Just another customer's perspective, but you guys need to work on the price thing a little.

I will apologize for the cheap shot at FedEx and taking the bitter guys that I read on our forum. I won't paint you all with the same brush and you have been very good about the banter on this thread. My jab was more at Watch This but I should have not painted you all in the same light.

As to the bus Captain that gave you that line about picking up time. Sure he is a tool and I bet he still is a tool today. He probably is also the guy that says he does everything SOP, followed by a list of exceptions.

The CDG market is all but abandoned by UAL. One flight to ORD and IAD at that is it. I know they get a premium for the Atlantic flights and perhaps if they can get $7500 for a trip then they must have it right sized. I don't see many empty seats to or from CDG so the price is good if it helps the bottom line right?

Don't fret the 767's in the next few months. I think the first airplane with the new interiors and lie flat seats in first and business comes online on the 29th of this month. The 767's are first and then I believe the 400's and then the 777's are last to be reconfigured.

jsled
10-01-2007, 04:14 PM
Dude take it easy. I think you are the bitter one. If you need to keep telling yourself that selling off assets AKA- pan am. twa and the like is somehow a good thing go ahead have a blast. When every airline is updating their fleets with newer more efficient airplanes and youy guys are selling assets and have vertually no fuel hedges in place I can't for the life figure out how this could be a good thing.

Don't worry "dude", I am calm. The only assets possibly in play are not core to the airline operation. Besides, you should be worried about your 10+ year upgrade, not UAL's problems. I hope that luv seat is comfy. :cool:

OscartheGrouch
10-01-2007, 06:07 PM
Don't worry "dude", I am calm. The only assets possibly in play are not core to the airline operation. Besides, you should be worried about your 10+ year upgrade, not UAL's problems. I hope that luv seat is comfy. :cool:

JSLED,

I only lurk around here and comment when needed. Instead of coming up with a cheap shot when someone points out the shortcomings of your airline, maybe you should fix some stuff (as best you can as a pilot). That LUV seat is looking pretty good right now (for the time being) and those who have stolen from shareholders and employees (through BK) should not throw stones. Look in the mirror in the morining and quit being so jealous of what others have. Expecially those who have a "life" sentence on the 737.:p

Lambourne
10-02-2007, 05:26 AM
JSLED,

Look in the mirror in the morining and quit being so jealous of what others have. Expecially those who have a "life" sentence on the 737.:p

I don't think there are too many people jealous of flying a corndog for many many years. As a point of clarification why not ask some of those senior SWA pilot how they look at themselves in the mirror? They took that job well below the wages of the airlines at the time. Basically undercut the rest of us. It was because you guys were willing to do this that the airline CEO's hammered the rest of us.

It was only because the rest of the industry took a step backwards that allowed SWA to move to the front in pay. The legacy carriers have done most of the heavy lifting on the pay, benefits and safety for years. Carriers like SWA have coat-tailed themselves along.

If you want jsled to fix something at his carrier how about you fixing something at yours. That Pay For Training thing is a bear. It is high time you guys fixed that.

When it comes to a life sentence in the 737, it does not appear that SWA got that much better looking. Just SWA was hiring pilots while the other carriers were furloughing and stagnate. As the industry rebounds, SWA cost escalate and pilots realize they are not going to have to work at SWA and fly AMA turns for the next 40 years the shine will be taken off the apple, or corndog if you prefer. Most guys enter this industry hoping the 737 is a transition aircraft to better lifestyle of widebodies and international flying.

I will stop now as I fear you think I might be "jealous". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

L

Invisible Man
10-02-2007, 06:31 AM
I don't think there are too many people jealous of flying a corndog for many many years. As a point of clarification why not ask some of those senior SWA pilot how they look at themselves in the mirror? They took that job well below the wages of the airlines at the time. Basically undercut the rest of us. It was because you guys were willing to do this that the airline CEO's hammered the rest of us.

It was only because the rest of the industry took a step backwards that allowed SWA to move to the front in pay. The legacy carriers have done most of the heavy lifting on the pay, benefits and safety for years. Carriers like SWA have coat-tailed themselves along.

If you want jsled to fix something at his carrier how about you fixing something at yours. That Pay For Training thing is a bear. It is high time you guys fixed that.

When it comes to a life sentence in the 737, it does not appear that SWA got that much better looking. Just SWA was hiring pilots while the other carriers were furloughing and stagnate. As the industry rebounds, SWA cost escalate and pilots realize they are not going to have to work at SWA and fly AMA turns for the next 40 years the shine will be taken off the apple, or corndog if you prefer. Most guys enter this industry hoping the 737 is a transition aircraft to better lifestyle of widebodies and international flying.

I will stop now as I fear you think I might be "jealous". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

L
Well said.

bigfatdaddy
10-02-2007, 11:01 AM
I don't think there are too many people jealous of flying a corndog for many many years. As a point of clarification why not ask some of those senior SWA pilot how they look at themselves in the mirror? They took that job well below the wages of the airlines at the time. Basically undercut the rest of us. It was because you guys were willing to do this that the airline CEO's hammered the rest of us.

It was only because the rest of the industry took a step backwards that allowed SWA to move to the front in pay. The legacy carriers have done most of the heavy lifting on the pay, benefits and safety for years. Carriers like SWA have coat-tailed themselves along.

If you want jsled to fix something at his carrier how about you fixing something at yours. That Pay For Training thing is a bear. It is high time you guys fixed that.

When it comes to a life sentence in the 737, it does not appear that SWA got that much better looking. Just SWA was hiring pilots while the other carriers were furloughing and stagnate. As the industry rebounds, SWA cost escalate and pilots realize they are not going to have to work at SWA and fly AMA turns for the next 40 years the shine will be taken off the apple, or corndog if you prefer. Most guys enter this industry hoping the 737 is a transition aircraft to better lifestyle of widebodies and international flying.

I will stop now as I fear you think I might be "jealous". :rolleyes::rolleyes:

L

I'll second the above sentiments! It's not about envy!

captjns
10-03-2007, 04:54 AM
Long haul flying isn't what it used to be either. Shorter layovers and more crew utilization to boot.

CVG767A
10-03-2007, 06:52 AM
Long haul flying isn't what it used to be either. Shorter layovers and more crew utilization to boot.

Domestic long haul flying may have gotten worse, but they haven't figured out a way to mess up trans-oceanic flying.

I don't see the international layovers going to anything less than 24 hours. Also, 48 hour layovers will be more common as we introduce service to more obscure destinations (with 3x or 4x weekly service).

Lambourne
10-03-2007, 07:13 AM
Domestic long haul flying may have gotten worse, but they haven't figured out a way to mess up trans-oceanic flying.

I don't see the international layovers going to anything less than 24 hours. Also, 48 hour layovers will be more common as we introduce service to more obscure destinations (with 3x or 4x weekly service).

CVG,

I would not try to use logic to refute "c"aptjns. He is trying to justify his career at SWA. Flying international versus domestic is night and day different. The layovers are much better, longer and our average EURO trip pays 16-19 hours for being gone 48 hours. I will take that any day of the week over 6 legs in a guppy.

L

CVG767A
10-03-2007, 07:30 AM
It is a sweet deal. Of course, flying to Europe with a 777 would be an improvement...

newKnow
10-03-2007, 07:53 AM
Long haul flying isn't what it used to be either. Shorter layovers and more crew utilization to boot.

Yes,

31 hours in Singapore is not enough time. It is way too short. :D

captjns
10-03-2007, 08:36 AM
CVG,

I would not try to use logic to refute "c"aptjns. He is trying to justify his career at SWA. Flying international versus domestic is night and day different. The layovers are much better, longer and our average EURO trip pays 16-19 hours for being gone 48 hours. I will take that any day of the week over 6 legs in a guppy.

L

I'll take my fluff pay over your "gee will we suvive pay" any time ace. I know... I know you will come up with a decent retort to my rebuff. But before you do, please... enter into a koolaide rehabilitation center. I can't believe that you still hold SWA responsible for your reduction in pay for a carrier that started up over 30 years ago... not that takes the cake. Do you hold SWA responsible for ESOP situation too??? why not go ahead... if it makes you happy take another shot.

RobLAX
10-03-2007, 09:41 AM
Ok ok calm down everyone!

captjns
10-03-2007, 10:50 AM
Ok ok calm down everyone!


Sorry... I have a major problem with brain damaged kool aide drinkers.