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FlyJSH
10-09-2007, 03:28 AM
Howdy all,

Okay, I am going to swallow my pride and ask you folks for some help.

Last November, I failed my initial checkride with one of the larger regionals in an EMB-145. Since then, even getting an interview is impossible.

A bit about my backround: 5000 tt, 2100 AMEL PIC, 900 single turboprop PIC, part 135 Check Airman.

The first problem I had in training was the crew concept. All of my time (other than as a CFI) is single pilot.

My other problem was transitioning to glass and the heavy use of autopilot. All my time is on steam gauges, and most of it is hand flown (our autopilots flew to private pilot standards). The only time in the -145 I impressed my instructor was when all the electrics had failed, and I was hand flying off the gumball.

I have found a job flying a privately owned Caravan; so I am flying. But I only fly about 20 hours a month, and it is, frankly, a dead end job. The one good thing is it is one tricked out Caravan. It still has a six pack with a glass HSI, but otherwise is has all the bells and whistles the jet did.

So what am I doing now to prevent another failure?
1. I am pushing all the buttons on the Caravan, getting comfortable using all the automation it has.
2. Bought Microsoft Flight Sim so I can get better at reading speed and altitude tapes.
3. As for the CRM, all I know is next time, I need to put more time and effort into callouts and using the guy/gal in the other seat.

Back to the original problem. When I talk to any 121 carrier, when they hear about my failure, the conversation is over. 135 and 91 has been only slightly better. What can I do? Am I going to have to start from scratch again? (Oh, and I am in my early 40s: my clock is ticking)

Thanks for the help,
j


ghilis101
10-09-2007, 04:02 AM
theres always mesa. seriously mesa sucks but if thats what you need on your resume to show you can make it through 121 training then why not. send your resume to them and hound them you could be in class in the next few weeks, but get out of there as fast as you can

pilotss
10-09-2007, 04:31 AM
Push hard on some of the regionals. Big Sky, Mesa, Cape Air, Great Lakes.

Do your penance there. Pass the training and in 6 months apply all over again to the larger regionals. It will take some time to get this under your belt. Every where you go you will have to explain this event so get comfortable explaining it.

The only thing that will help you out will be a proven record of passing check rides and that takes time. You have a smear on your record but it is a short detour not the end of your career. Most people will eventually have one check ride bust, DUI, arrest, or something on their record. Saints only apply to the Vatican.

Good Luck.


Short Bus Drive
10-09-2007, 05:30 AM
Push hard on some of the regionals. Big Sky, Mesa, Cape Air, Great Lakes.

Do your penance there. Pass the training and in 6 months apply all over again to the larger regionals. It will take some time to get this under your belt. Every where you go you will have to explain this event so get comfortable explaining it.

The only thing that will help you out will be a proven record of passing check rides and that takes time. You have a smear on your record but it is a short detour not the end of your career. Most people will eventually have one check ride bust, DUI, arrest, or something on their record. Saints only apply to the Vatican.

Good Luck.


I agree. Try EVERY company out there. Colgan (land of this misfit pilots-I know, I was one of them), Mesa?, Just get your resume out there. Especially at the ones that fly the "smaller" planes. (BE-1900). These don't have autopilot, have steam gauges. Stuff you are used to. Work on the CRM there. SOMEONE is bound to call. Suck it up there. Get past the bust, and if you want, move on.
For future reference, it sounds like you are one of those that has to sit down with their sim partner, and WORK TOGETHER!!! Eat, drink, etc... together. It helps.

RJ Pilot
10-09-2007, 06:26 AM
Eagle is hiring.

rickair7777
10-09-2007, 07:47 AM
In today's environment, failing your first 121 training event should not be the end of the road. You might have to do penance at a small prop operation or mesa, but you might not.

Your problem may be how you are presenting yourself at the interviews:

1) Identify and address any OTHER interview or background problems you may have...read up on interviewing, make sure you look VERY presentable.

2) Make sure that you address the training problem correctly. Do NOT be defensive or blame your instructor, sim buddy, or the company, you will need to take responsibility for what happened. Sounds like you have already identified CRM and glass automation as issues...when asked, explain BRIEFLY what happened, tell them your plan for overcoming these problems, then SHUT UP. Hopefully they will move on to other topics.

Also do NOT let failed interviews get you down...it happens to almost everyone, and you may experience more than most. Just move on to the next one, I'm sure you'll get hired before too long. You are a better training risk than someone who has had never attended 121 training...you already know what you need to focus on, and will not be as lost as a newbie.

Someone mentioned eagle...they have a history of never hiring folks who failed out at another airline. Be aware of that, but if you get an interview you may as well give them a shot.

Also maybe try to get a multi-engine job. The One God, One Country, One Pilot, One Engine thing only works for viper people.

Tinpusher007
10-09-2007, 07:51 AM
FlyJSH....did they terminate you after your first initial F/O PC? Were you only given one, or was it multiple times?

FlyJSH
10-09-2007, 08:47 AM
It was my initial. One attempt and "thanks for playing"

Tinpusher007
10-09-2007, 08:53 AM
It was my initial. One attempt and "thanks for playing"

Wow, Im sorry to hear that man. At XJ, they told us point blank we would not be terminated for busting a PC, especially not the first one and only once. I mean, if it becomes a routine problem, thats another story. But by the time you're ready for a PC they have already invested significant time and money in us, so they want to see us get through. Good luck to you, though. I would say given your experience level, you certainly have a lot offer this industry. Just be a little more lazy the next time around and use your other crewmember. I had problems with callouts in the beginning of my training too. Everything was happening so fast and I got tunnel vision trying to make sense of it all. But soon, it just began to click. Once again...good luck!

FlyJSH
10-09-2007, 08:59 AM
Thanks to you all, lots of great info.

Rickair -- yeah, I know I need to get back into the multi.... it was just the Caravan folks were the only folks who were willing to overlook a bust only a month prior.

Short Bus - Love the Colgan comment (land of misfit pilots).... sounds like my kinda place... and I have an interview (face to face, not just phone) later this month...

Thanks again :)

chignutsak
10-09-2007, 01:00 PM
Eagle is hiring.

Eagle would not even interview a buddy of mine who had washed out of a 'major' regional's training program.

seaav8tor
10-09-2007, 02:21 PM
There are always several data points in the hiring decision. You have a good chance of continuing your flying career.

In econ class they define "willing" and "able"

There is no shortage of "able"

There is a shortage of "willing"

As long as you are willing to work long hours for low pay; be gone from home over 50% of your life, you will find a job.

If you're happy with that you have achieved some measure of success.

Good luck to you.:rolleyes:

machaf
10-09-2007, 02:50 PM
Try Pinnacle.

They have hired guys who have failed at other companies. One washed out twice and still got the job there and made it through SIM and OE with no problems.

JoeyMeatballs
10-10-2007, 05:56 AM
Thanks to you all, lots of great info.

Rickair -- yeah, I know I need to get back into the multi.... it was just the Caravan folks were the only folks who were willing to overlook a bust only a month prior.

Short Bus - Love the Colgan comment (land of misfit pilots).... sounds like my kinda place... and I have an interview (face to face, not just phone) later this month...

Thanks again :)

Hey I was a Colgan misfit myself, I had two busted rides before getting into a 121 carrier, just keep at it, youll get a job but like others have said, at this point take what you can get, just to prove you can get through 121 program, if you dont mind, what deplorable airline got rid of you after an Initial PC bust?

Illini
10-10-2007, 08:12 AM
Eagle would not even interview a buddy of mine who had washed out of a 'major' regional's training program.

Yeah, they suck like that. They have always stood by the idea that if you fail out of a 121 program they want nothing to do with you

av8r4aa
10-10-2007, 09:47 AM
Every checkride I have ever taken I always
say this.

" If I learn something in the checkride than it was a success"

I have busted 1 checkride with the FAA on the other side of the desk.

What did I learn from that? Don't take your checkrides from the FAA.

Don't feel bad for very long, study up, talk to your friends about

how their ride went, dust yourself off and keep going.

Life is just a series of learning curves.

Roper92
10-10-2007, 03:04 PM
Yeah what kind of airline dumps you off after busting one checkride??
How inappropriate! It's lewd, lascivious, salacious, outrageous!
I can tell you that XJET will do everything they can to keep you on. A guy in my class was having problems. They sent him home to be with his family for a week to clear his mind! He came back, passed, and joined our class on the line. Our class had a 100% pass rate.

LR45DRIVER
10-10-2007, 04:01 PM
I agree with everyone else, don't let it set you back. If you are passionate about what you do and want to do, then do it! Like others have said, "what have you learned from it?" That is what is most important. It is usually best to own some responsibility in it and figure out how to do it better next time, which you have. Carry on.

FlyJSH
10-10-2007, 05:21 PM
What company was it? Hey guys I kiss, but I cant tell.

What I can say is thier minimums were higher than the average. In my class, about half were coming from another regional.

Oh, and they contracted out the training... you know the kind of places old captains go to die. My sim instructor had a vile temper. My partner failed on his first attemp on a tiny thing. The company planned on retesting him, but the night before the retest he was so sick of the "instructor", he just disappeared. The company tried calling him to come back and retest, but he never answered the phone calls.

ghilis101
10-11-2007, 02:58 AM
hmm ill take a crack at it. does the airline name start with a "T" and end in "rans States"? hehe :) jk yea some things are better left private

Shrek
10-11-2007, 07:48 AM
hmm ill take a crack at it. does the airline name start with a "T" and end in "rans States"? hehe :) jk yea some things are better left private

Wouldn't doubt it ;)

sigtauenus
10-11-2007, 07:55 AM
hmm ill take a crack at it. does the airline name start with a "T" and end in "rans States"? hehe :) jk yea some things are better left private

hehe is right, that cracked me up.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
10-12-2007, 01:09 AM
FLYJSH – I used to do little recruiting at a small regional airline; I also did some sim training and ioe as well – so here’s my take on your situation.
First of all, let me tell you that your story is more common than you think. I was about to give you some advice but quickly realized that you’re doing a pretty good job at that yourself. Let me show you why:

“I am going to swallow my pride and ask you folks for some help. Okay, Last November, I failed my initial checkride with one of the larger regionals in an EMB-145.”

- Bingo! You know there was a problem, you realized it and are asking for advice. That’s usually the biggest problem; many pilots tend to blame their failures on others: the training department, their instructor, their sim partner, etc, etc. You simply want to do better next time – and because of your attitude you WILL!

“The first problem I had in training was the crew concept. All of my time (other than as a CFI) is single pilot.”

- You already recognized one of your biggest obstacles - CRM is very tough for pilots who aren’t used to a multi-crew environment. It really works against you if you haven’t done tons of “chair flying” with your sim partner (see below).

“My other problem was transitioning to glass and the heavy use of autopilot. All my time is on steam gauges, and most of it is hand flown (our autopilots flew to private pilot standards). The only time in the -145 I impressed my instructor was when all the electrics had failed, and I was hand flying off the gumball.”

- There you go again; you recognized another problem in your training. When switching from dial gauges to glass (or vice versa) there will always be an extra strain on your already overloaded brain cells. However, your hand-flying skills are an asset that will help you many, many times in the future. The hardest part of flying sophisticated jets is when you have to go back to basics because things start breaking down – you will never have a problem hand-flying an airplane – right now all you need is to build up your automation skills. Once that’s done, you’ll be able to ace it!

Here’s what I would have done if I were you.

1) Stop listening to people who heard that: “Eagle would not even interview a buddy of mine who had washed out of a 'major' regional's training program.”

I’m sure he/she meant well and wanted to “tell you the truth” but the only truth is what happens to you and no one else. Apply to every regional airline you can think of. Once you get hired at one of the regionals - go through the training (see below) and fly the line for a while before you do anything else - it’ll be much easier for you to choose a different airline now because you’d proven that “you can do it.” Having said that, many recruiters will look for some kind of loyalty to a company that “gave you a chance,” so I would give them at least a year or so before you decide to switch airlines if that's what you'd like to do.

2) When you get hired, and you will, approach an instructor or the director of training, or anyone you feel comfortable with, and tell them the truth:
“Look I’m a new guy here and I’d love to do my best - if possible I’d like to be paired with someone who’s very comfortable with the CRM concept as it’s little new to me. I’m willing to give it 110% if you work with me.”
There’s not one instructor in the world who wouldn’t take it upon himself or herself to help out a fellow pilot who’s being pro-active. In fact, most of us would challenge ourselves to help you turn into one of the most competent pilots out there.

3) Once you know who your sim. partner will be – tell him/her that it would mean a whole lot to you if y’all could spend lots of time doing "chair-flying." You should “chair-fly” every approach you can think of: precision and non-precision while you do the callouts and the procedures. V1 cuts, ILSs, VOR approaches, NDB approaches, etc etc, 1 or 2 engine. Talk yourselves through it; many times people think they know the call-outs when they recall them in their head. However, when there’s an engine fire or some other emergency they forget the basic callouts.
So talk to yourselves: “Ok you just lost an engine what are you doing?” “Tracking the centerline.” “Good, what else?”… etc, etc…
I’ve seen many pilots who struggled in the beginning ace their training because they “logged” all that “chair” flight time – it really helps.

4) For you, it will help even more because you’ll be forced to interact with your sim partner, which is nothing else than real life CRM. Ask your partner, when would you engage the autopilot? When would you disengage it? Why now and not sooner? “What about for single engine approaches?” etc, etc…

5) From now on, every interview you’ll ever do use your story as a positive learning experience. “Let me tell you how I once messed up, how I fixed the problem and more importantly - what I learned from that experience…”

Remember - recruiters are looking for pilots who have good flying skills, are trainable, work well with others and are fun to be around. Your future is bright if you give it 100% and have a good attitude - based on your previous comments, you do.

I’d hire you!

Good luck to you!

Ponch
10-12-2007, 05:57 AM
FWIW, I think AV8OR WANNABE's post right above mine is one of the best on here. Keep plugging away like he says, and with your good attitude, you'll bounce back. Sounds like a crappy airline you really don't want to be at anyway if that's how they are to a new-hire.

FlyJSH
10-12-2007, 09:38 AM
Av8tor,

WOW! Thanks... a bunch.

j

Pilatapus
10-12-2007, 10:45 PM
Have you given much thought to the fractionals? They all fly 2 pilot crews.
I come from flying single pilot 135 IFR and try to keep sharp by hand flying so I have a some fear of going to an operation that uses a 2 pilot crew with similar results. Thanks for sharing your experience because I know I learned something from it and hopefully others do to. Keep up your good attitude and good things will happen.

bata
10-13-2007, 05:45 PM
Be sure the company is using AQP advanced quallificaiton training. Basically allows training to proficiency vs a check ride. Also you should have had access to a PC vertual sim to practice on. I spent 40-50 hrs (chairflying) in the VSIM practicing the profiles getting used to the flight guidance panel. I am sure you will get another chance with your experience.

AAdog
10-14-2007, 07:58 AM
AE AMR Eagle is hiring anyone who will work for them..... almost.... I had an AE SIM instructor in my jumpseat about two months ago. ABQ-DFW He said as a class of newhires are offered a class date only about half show up. When some of them find out after the first day they are headed for a prop rather than an ERJ they don't come back after lunch. So I'd consider them. You of course will still have to pass the rides. Listen to the instructors and don't argue with them. They don't really care how you did things. Do it there way and you will pass. Good Luck!

FlyingViking
10-14-2007, 08:43 PM
You go FlyJSH!! If you need a letter from a CA that actually was there and can testify to what REALLY took place, you let me know. Please do not think for a second it was your fault, it was NOT!! I have some very good contacts in XJ as well as some other places and some time has passed and you have AGAIN proven yourself worthy of ANY flying job I can think of. The one job I mentioned for you earlier is still available, pays good $$$ and you can fly as much as you want. Let me know what I can do for you, I'll do it in a heartbeat if I'm able!

KS

Goodlivn
10-18-2007, 07:50 PM
I just want to comment on this post. I usually just surf this forum, (taking from it, and not contributing anything) and end up feeling turned-off from so many negative, tunnel-visioned, robotic views on the do's and dont's of following the "system" to get to where you want to be. I want to thank AV80RWANNABE for contributing such a truely helpful and pragmatic thread, this support is what makes this forum so valuable. I also respect FLYJSH for sharing his experience, as I am quite certain he is not the only pilot to face these challenges. We all have different experiences, and different goals, but it's nice to have this support.

FlyJSH
03-28-2008, 08:12 AM
I have seen several posts from folks who have busted lately. I thought bringing this thread back up might be worth while.

Just to let you all know, I have been on line with one of the less glamourus regionals for four months now. It ain't sexy, but I am flying and it pays the bills.

Also, I want to thank Av8orwannabe for a FANTASTIC post. Just knowing I was on the right track was a huge boost. Thank you!

ArcticDog
03-28-2008, 08:45 AM
You might consider trying to get out and jumpseat on your new carrier if they allow you to do so. My airline will book pilots in training positive space in the JS for observation. It could help with your CRM skills by observing some real world ops as well as help "put the pieces together" that sometimes get lost in the training building. It has helped me at both airlines I have worked for. Good luck, hope this helps!

dojetdriver
03-28-2008, 09:04 AM
5) From now on, every interview you’ll ever do use your story as a positive learning experience. “Let me tell you how I once messed up, how I fixed the problem and more importantly - what I learned from that experience…”

Good luck to you!

Agreed. That type of answer alone will zap out about 5-6 HR type questions and shorten an interview, in the candidates favor.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
03-28-2008, 10:36 AM
I have seen several posts from folks who have busted lately. I thought bringing this thread back up might be worth while.

Just to let you all know, I have been on line with one of the less glamourus regionals for four months now. It ain't sexy, but I am flying and it pays the bills.

Also, I want to thank Av8orwannabe for a FANTASTIC post. Just knowing I was on the right track was a huge boost. Thank you!
Very glad you're back on top again! :D

Remember - there are no glamorous regionals! However, since you're at one that's even "less glamorous" than some others - things will only be getting better for you from now on.

Hang on to your current job for a while, especially since hiring has slowed down at many airlines. Aim for the left seat as soon as you can get it, and as soon as you are there start aiming for any instructor position - ioe instructor is best because you'll keep building your flight time while you instruct, but a sim. instructor or even a ground instructor position looks absolutely great on a resume to most recruiters out there.

Due to your personal experiences you'll be a great instructor because you'll probably be able to recognize your students’ problems way before they can. This way you can guide them in the right direction.

Hang in there and you’ll see that your future will be bright! Keep us posted on your progress please.

cubflyer
03-28-2008, 10:46 AM
I'm glad to see this thread has been brought back up. Unfortunately, I busted my 1st recurrent PC a few days ago, and am really beginning to get nervous about the recheck. For what it's worth, the Captain busted too.

I've never failed a checkride before, and I've been flying for nearly 13 years. Been flying 121 for a year. I take complete responsibility for my mistakes and for not doing a better job of preparing in advance.

My questions is......do the instructors discuss issues amongst themselves about the pilots who bust? I mean, when I go in for my recheck, will the instructor be knowledgable about the mistakes I made? If so, do you think it causes pre-conceived notions about how the recheck will go? I want to be given a clean slate on the recheck.

By the way, I thought the instructor was fair and did what he needed to do. I take total blame for this.

ghilis101
03-28-2008, 11:00 AM
My questions is......do the instructors discuss issues amongst themselves about the pilots who bust? I mean, when I go in for my recheck, will the instructor be knowledgable about the mistakes I made?

probably. it depends on the size and style of your training department. i work at a company where everyone knows everyone on a first name basis. when i get into the cockpit with someone, they have already heard something good/funny/embarrasing/bad about me. same is true with our sim instructors and check airmen. it usually works for you, but i guess in rare cases it can work against you. also im sure when they fill out training reports for your file after the sim they go into detail about what areas are strong and weak. so yes, your next instructor will know and should be fair about it.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
03-28-2008, 11:15 AM
I'm glad to see this thread has been brought back up. Unfortunately, I busted my 1st recurrent PC a few days ago, and am really beginning to get nervous about the recheck...
Sorry about the recurrent bust – was it sim or oral or both?

The instructors do discuss some issues but I wouldn’t sweat it. The way we handled busted check rides at my previous airline was to focus on the guys/gals weak spots but more as a way to teach proactively than to bust again.
Obviously there was a problem but they probably want to make sure it won’t happen again, that’s all.

How much time off before your next checkride did you get? Would it be possible to try to get an instructor or another crew member to give you some “mock up” checkride training? Even sim. rides can be “simulated” in the chair flying. You probably know exactly why you busted so maybe going over those procedures during some chair flying would make you sharper AND it would put your mind at ease.

Btw, don’t think that just because one instructor busted you another will feel “obligated” to do the same. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most instructors love to “instruct” so even though this will be a checkride, I wouldn’t be surprised if they’ll throw in some “dual given” for you either before or maybe even during parts of your evaluation.

Good luck and keep us posted.

cubflyer
03-28-2008, 11:38 AM
Sorry about the recurrent bust – was it sim or oral or both?

Just the Sim portion. Stupid errors..........This has been a real wake-up call!

flyinglow
03-31-2008, 04:53 PM
Sorry to hear both of your and FlyJsh stories, I too have a failure on my record and am also 40 (UG) and am glad to hear that you can recover. I spent the last year trying to rebuild my confidence. Reading every manual that I can find on ebay. My exixting limitation is going from a C172 instructor to CRM, and the Tech stuff. I have been doing a lot of self study and also did a CRJ tranisiton course ( A less expensive one) I used that to help build my confidence and to see what areas I could improve on. I am still teaching and am finding it very difficult to get on with an airline. I also get very nervous for interviews. Which I am sure shows through. I would love to be in FyJSh
class it sounds like you would make not only a great instructor but an empathic one as well. And that goes a long way. Fortuntatly we do have glass panel C172s now. and that also helps with the glass transition. I also discovered Fly the Wing (Webb) I wish I could have discovered that for my
first class it would have made things a lot easier. One more additinal limitation besides finances it that I need to stay on the West Coast. I am married and am in an area that is very limited to jobs.

C152driver
03-31-2008, 06:14 PM
flyinglow, were you at Mesaba last year?

flyinglow
03-31-2008, 07:07 PM
No I was not. I here mostly good things about them though.

tennesseeflyboy
04-01-2008, 03:12 AM
If you are a SAFE and CONSCIENTIOUS Pilot, you should not be "tar feathered" over this. Doctors and Lawyers screw up, and they have almost no problems staying in their professions making a good living, so why can't Pilots have the same afforded to them. This flying industry is full of "holier than thou" and "better than you" idiots that are making the decisions against all of us ............................................ screw them and take command of your destiny. Take care and keep your head up, you are not the screw up problem that the industry leaders and decision makers are.

727C47
04-01-2008, 04:03 AM
what he said

flyinglow
04-01-2008, 07:29 AM
This is to everyone on this thread, I hope I get a chance to fly or meet
you. Your personalities are part of why I chose this industry in the first
place. If I had an instructor like Aviator I might have been able to struggle
through. I found out after the fact from second hand info that the guys in
my glass all had said that if they were in charge they would have pulled me through just on my effort and attitude alone.
thank you

C152driver
04-01-2008, 07:01 PM
No I was not. I here mostly good things about them though.

OK, thanks. From what you said, I thought you might be one of my former classmates from there. Good luck, hang in there!

cactusmike
04-02-2008, 10:14 AM
I am on the ALPA training committee here and one of my jobs is to come in when a pilot has training or checkride issues and work with Flight Standards and the pilot to come up with a plan to get the pilot the help he needs. Fortunately I am not too busy with this part but I can tell you that attitude is everything. I just helped a transition captain who was going to bust IOE. After talking with his check airmen and instructors we were able to look at how he was presenting himself and we identified the areas he needed to reemphasize. He made the changes, got some extra training and passed successfully.

Another guy we had didn't really want to be in the seat he had bid for. He had difficulties, didn't do the work needed and wound up going back to his previous slot. An expensive way to have a few months off the line.

If you have problems it should show before you get to the checkride stage. The time to fix things is before you get in the sim for your PC. That is also a function of your instructors. They should know if you are ready to go or not and they should let you know what you need to do to fix things. But in the end it is up to you to be ready. Know your flows, know your systems, know the callouts and profiles. Then you will not have an issue.

flyinglow
04-13-2008, 06:48 AM
Wish I would have had your help.