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View Full Version : Cal Info Please!


gooneybird_71
11-24-2007, 08:03 PM
Here is my dilemma have about 7000 hours total I have flown the DC3 ,CV580, CV340, DC9,and currently a Captain on the CL/65.
I have only an Associates Degree in Aviation , No Four Year Degree.
I have plenty experiences and a couple of Recs at CAl. Can anyone tell me if I am just wasting my time applying if I dont have the four year degree.
Thanks


jet320
11-24-2007, 09:15 PM
I am also in the same position, 9500 plus hours 8500 jet time on A320 and 737and if I was in your shoes, with internal recs in CAL, shoot....if you don't shoot, that will a waste of time! Best jet320

We are weaving character every day, and the way to weave the best character is to be kind and to be useful. Think right, act right; it is what we think and do that makes us who we are. --Elbert Hubbard

mundo1
11-25-2007, 07:20 AM
Here is my dilemma have about 7000 hours total I have flown the DC3 ,CV580, CV340, DC9,and currently a Captain on the CL/65.
I have only an Associates Degree in Aviation , No Four Year Degree.
I have plenty experiences and a couple of Recs at CAl. Can anyone tell me if I am just wasting my time applying if I dont have the four year degree.
Thanks

No, you are not wasting your time. With your experience level you should not have any problems. So carry on...

Good luck.

P


flybynuts
11-25-2007, 06:47 PM
I spoke with our hiring manager last week and she told me that CAL is looking for guys with more TT. I am not sure about the Associates degree though? If I find out in the next few days, I will post it!

CALPilotToo
11-25-2007, 07:01 PM
I spoke with our hiring manager last week and she told me that CAL is looking for guys with more TT. I am not sure about the Associates degree though? If I find out in the next few days, I will post it!


That is because the upgrades are coming so quick. But I don't see how they are going to get more experience until they pay a descent wage and add health insurance in the mix for new hires.

CAL is a good place to be but I'd go elsewhere to about 4 or 5 other carriers before I came to CAL.

Albief15
11-25-2007, 08:29 PM
Where else?

SWA? DAL? UPS? FDX?

757Driver
11-26-2007, 06:07 AM
CAL is a good place to be but I'd go elsewhere to about 4 or 5 other carriers before I came to CAL.

I'd change the "good" wording to "mediocre at best". We are being shat on by our management on a daily basis. Our contract is bad enough but when the company violates it at will, (see PBS amongst others), and we all sit around singing kumbaya you know it ain't a great place.

Why do we have a worse contract than those carriers that recently went through Chapter 11 bankruptcy?

gooneybird_71
11-26-2007, 08:05 AM
Thanks flybynuts any infio will help.

David Watts
11-26-2007, 09:18 AM
Here is my dilemma have about 7000 hours total I have flown the DC3 ,CV580, CV340, DC9,and currently a Captain on the CL/65.
I have only an Associates Degree in Aviation , No Four Year Degree.
I have plenty experiences and a couple of Recs at CAl. Can anyone tell me if I am just wasting my time applying if I dont have the four year degree.
Thanks

The biggest thing you need to do is have one of the people that wrote you a letter go in and talk to the chief pilot. That is about the only way to get an interview. You can have 80 letters, but if no one goes in for a face to face to talk you up it won't matter. Unfortunetly that is the way it works at CAL. I know some people will come on here and say that no one walked their stuff in, but those are few and far between.

Good luck.

gooneybird_71
11-26-2007, 10:28 AM
Has anyone ever heard of a guy off the street walking into the chiefs office to personally hand a resume in?? just curious if that was suicide cause i am the type of person who could do that, heck thats how i got two previous jobs. It has been a while for me since i have even applied to another airline.
so would anyone dissagree with that.

jdt30
11-26-2007, 10:43 AM
Has anyone ever heard of a guy off the street walking into the chiefs office to personally hand a resume in?? just curious if that was suicide cause i am the type of person who could do that, heck thats how i got two previous jobs. It has been a while for me since i have even applied to another airline.
so would anyone dissagree with that.

I've worked at CAL for 2 years, called in sick once, and haven't had any luck getting anyone an interview. All my probation reports were positive also. So I have no idea what it takes to get someone an interview here.

rusty737
11-26-2007, 11:46 AM
I'd change the "good" wording to "mediocre at best". We are being shat on by our management on a daily basis. Our contract is bad enough but when the company violates it at will, (see PBS amongst others), and we all sit around singing kumbaya.

Why do we have a worse contract than those carriers that recently went through Chapter 11 bankruptcy?
If it's so bad why do you stay??

Eric Stratton
11-26-2007, 12:10 PM
I spoke with our hiring manager last week and she told me that CAL is looking for guys with more TT. I am not sure about the Associates degree though? If I find out in the next few days, I will post it!

and what is more TT? I find it interesting that they would say that. If they wanted higher time pilots they shouldn't have hired lower time FO's

757Driver
11-26-2007, 12:17 PM
If it's so bad why do you stay??

Ok Karl,

Just because you changed your pen-name doesn't mean I don't know its you.

Been there 20 years now and have been trying to change things since day 1.

We have the weakest Pilot group out there and are paid and treated as such because of it.

Starting over is not an option and if you were an airline Pilot you'd understand why.

reCALcitrant
11-26-2007, 12:29 PM
Ok Karl,

Just because you changed your pen-name doesn't mean I don't know its you.

Been there 20 years now and have been trying to change things since day 1.

We have the weakest Pilot group out there and are paid and treated as such because of it.

Starting over is not an option and if you were an airline Pilot you'd understand why.

You two crack me up. I'm with you 75. Time for a big raise and a lot of work rules fixing. Nothing less will do.

rusty737
11-26-2007, 05:45 PM
I'm not sure who Karl is but I have been with CAL for 2+ years, prior to that, USMC for 21 years.

From what I know about CAL's history, the late 1980's and all of the 1990's really sucked. You have probably been complaining and badmouthing CAL since you were hired. Personally, I like it here, intend to do my part to make it better, and will not vote yes next year unless the contract meets my expectations. If I ever get to where I hate the company that I work for, I will look elsewhere no matter how many years I have invested.

CALPilotToo
11-26-2007, 06:04 PM
Personally, I like it here, intend to do my part to make it better, and will not vote yes next year .

I've got news for you. You won't get to vote next year or the year after that for a new contract. Obviously, the USMC didn't teach you boys about "status quo" and who benefits from it.

CALPilotToo
11-26-2007, 06:05 PM
Where else?

SWA? DAL? UPS? FDX?
Yea, and probably Alaska for the uniqness of the airline and flying.

CALPilotToo
11-26-2007, 06:08 PM
If I ever get to where I hate the company that I work for, I will look elsewhere no matter how many years I have invested.

Sure you would. B756 CA with 20 years and you'd give it up to go make 125K less and throw hydraulic switches for a CA and an FO. Yea right.

757Driver
11-26-2007, 07:52 PM
I'm not sure who Karl is but I have been with CAL for 2+ years, prior to that, USMC for 21 years.

From what I know about CAL's history, the late 1980's and all of the 1990's really sucked. You have probably been complaining and badmouthing CAL since you were hired. Personally, I like it here, intend to do my part to make it better, and will not vote yes next year unless the contract meets my expectations. If I ever get to where I hate the company that I work for, I will look elsewhere no matter how many years I have invested.

Naivety at its finest but I hope your personal expectations don't mirror what our management wants.

Why is it when we hire career Military guys most of them kiss the ground that management walks on and set the rest of us back light years?

Perhaps you should have stayed in the military.

A320fumes
11-26-2007, 08:12 PM
I've got news for you. You won't get to vote next year or the year after that for a new contract. Obviously, the USMC didn't teach you boys about "status quo" and who benefits from it.

No need to bash the grunts. And you are right, "status quo" is not required, or relevant, reading in the Corps. Our best chance to get a good contract is if we stay on this pos for a few more years and the other carriers raise the bar. Our weak and divided pilot group doesn't stand a snowball's chance in hell at a decent contract; the vast majority of our guys have never seen one.

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 04:01 AM
Naivety at its finest but I hope your personal expectations don't mirror what our management wants.

Why is it when we hire career Military guys most of them kiss the ground that management walks on and set the rest of us back light years?

Perhaps you should have stayed in the military.

Wow.....you really need to get off that high-horse of yours and start acting like a pilot, not a punk. Incredible. Most of the military guys, (I'm guessing you're a "Dick Cheney armchair military soldier" the way you post), have respect for authority, unlike guys like you who "know it all" and blame us for your ills. Too bad you don't have any military experience, maybe you'd have learned something. :eek:

reCALcitrant
11-27-2007, 04:55 AM
Naivety at its finest but I hope your personal expectations don't mirror what our management wants.

Why is it when we hire career Military guys most of them kiss the ground that management walks on and set the rest of us back light years?

Perhaps you should have stayed in the military.

Don't lump us all together. We don't all think the same. No different than lumping you all in with the 83-85 hires. "You all are the ones who let those peckerheads stay on property". I don't mean that quote, just an example of how thinking a certain way doesn't make it true. I know that in 86 there was not much choice in what was going on. Let's fix this ****ty contract now!! No excuses. As a group we have to get everybody speaking the same language. So...USMC. You don't have to develop a bad attitude over the next 20 years. But you do have to learn that management works for the shareholder not us. If you want to make a lot of money and have a great job, vote as a group and be ready to negotiate with your feet if needed. It's all about money for them. Hence, don't take it personally. It's only business. Let's get some back!!

jdt30
11-27-2007, 04:58 AM
Naivety at its finest but I hope your personal expectations don't mirror what our management wants.

Why is it when we hire career Military guys most of them kiss the ground that management walks on and set the rest of us back light years?

Perhaps you should have stayed in the military.

Being a reservist I can tell you that most reservist that fly for the airlines know how bad they have it at Cal in comparison to other airlines. We sit around all the time talking to fellow reservist who fly for delta, american, fedex, and other airlines. Trust me reservist know how far we have to go to even equal a just out of bankruptcy carriers contract, ie Delta. Most reservist got out of active duty because they were tired of active duty management, but still wanted to serve. So I don't see many of us (reservist) kissing the ground management walks on. Plus the pleasant way management treated us while on probation when we needed to take military leave didn't leave most of us with a warm feeling.

757Driver
11-27-2007, 05:58 AM
Trust me CAL, I know there are no absolutes in life but this former USMC retiree is not alone in his thinking. I truly do admire those of you who have served our country and the word respect only just touches on that description.

What's wrong is that SOME of these older guys come out of the military with a very good retirement plan in place and don't want to challenge what they see as an authority figure, (see management).

That might have worked well in the military but unless your headed for the Chief Pilots office, it doesn't work well as a Unionized employee. Don't mistake my dumping on Karl and Rusty as a military haters campaign. Some of the finest Pilots and Unionists I fly with are straight from the military.

What must be stopped is this ridiculous "management is incapable of anything wrong" attitude that I see from both the civilian and military ranks.

Don't lump us all together. We don't all think the same. No different than lumping you all in with the 83-85 hires. "You all are the ones who let those peckerheads stay on property". I don't mean that quote, just an example of how thinking a certain way doesn't make it true. I know that in 86 there was not much choice in what was going on. Let's fix this ****ty contract now!! No excuses. As a group we have to get everybody speaking the same language. So...USMC. You don't have to develop a bad attitude over the next 20 years. But you do have to learn that management works for the shareholder not us. If you want to make a lot of money and have a great job, vote as a group and be ready to negotiate with your feet if needed. It's all about money for them. Hence, don't take it personally. It's only business. Let's get some back!!

757Driver
11-27-2007, 06:01 AM
Being a reservist I can tell you that most reservist that fly for the airlines know how bad they have it at Cal in comparison to other airlines. We sit around all the time talking to fellow reservist who fly for delta, american, fedex, and other airlines. Trust me reservist know how far we have to go to even equal a just out of bankruptcy carriers contract, ie Delta. Most reservist got out of active duty because they were tired of active duty management, but still wanted to serve. So I don't see many of us (reservist) kissing the ground management walks on. Plus the pleasant way management treated us while on probation when we needed to take military leave didn't leave most of us with a warm feeling.

See my post above jdt. I'm with you 100%. but I cannot and will not tolerate the Karls and the Rustys that infect our airline when our contract is so woefully inadequate.

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 06:52 AM
See my post above jdt. I'm with you 100%. but I cannot and will not tolerate the Karls and the Rustys that infect our airline when our contract is so woefully inadequate.

Interesting how "Karl's and Rusty's" infect the airline, but badmouthing everyone and everything about CAL is cosidered "classy" by people like you. You seem to hide behind your 757driver moniker because you can take potshots without anyone knowing who you are. I consider you "ball less" since you refuse to tell us who you really are, other than "I was hired 20 years ago", crap. You are an infection, and I'm sure CAL would love to see you and your ilk take a hike to another airline. Some of us enjoy being at CAL and see the only infections being the malcontents like you. You must enjoy CAL somewhat or you'd leave and go to greener pastures. I'm sure you could make up the difference in a matter of years since you'd be bailing to a "better airline" with much better rules and pay. Why hang around and be with such a "loser airline"? I just don't get guys like you..........you'll NEVER be happy. Too bad your negativity infects good pilots. What a shame. I think the reason you "hide" is because we migh just find out you're a SCAB...... as a matter of fact, I'd almost bet on it. :eek:

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 06:59 AM
Being a reservist I can tell you that most reservist that fly for the airlines know how bad they have it at Cal in comparison to other airlines. We sit around all the time talking to fellow reservist who fly for delta, american, fedex, and other airlines. Trust me reservist know how far we have to go to even equal a just out of bankruptcy carriers contract, ie Delta. Most reservist got out of active duty because they were tired of active duty management, but still wanted to serve. So I don't see many of us (reservist) kissing the ground management walks on. Plus the pleasant way management treated us while on probation when we needed to take military leave didn't leave most of us with a warm feeling.


I have a few friends who are STILL on furlough from AMR and getting crapped on all the time........so I guess they are better off than us????? Yeah, right.... DAL furloughed far and deep and many of their pilots just got back. Yeah, CAL was hiring furloughed DAL and AMR guys and many of them decided to stay, along with many UAL guys. I guess you must be right, CAL is a crappy place to work, but if that's the case why did you accept the job? So you could ***** and moan about everything? Wow, that's pretty classy. Must be really embarrassing to tell your friends at DAL, AMR, etc., that you held a line after 1 month, can probably upgrade to CA in 3 years, and that your company is actually expanding and getting new planes while they continue shrinking. I just had breakfast yesterday morning with one of our active reservists from McGuire and he said all his buddies would LOVE to come to CAL if they could get hired. I guess some guys don't know how good they've got it............:rolleyes:

757Driver
11-27-2007, 07:16 AM
Interesting how "Karl's and Rusty's" infect the airline, but badmouthing everyone and everything about CAL is cosidered "classy" by people like you. You seem to hide behind your 757driver moniker because you can take potshots without anyone knowing who you are. I consider you "ball less" since you refuse to tell us who you really are, other than "I was hired 20 years ago", crap. You are an infection, and I'm sure CAL would love to see you and your ilk take a hike to another airline. Some of us enjoy being at CAL and see the only infections being the malcontents like you. You must enjoy CAL somewhat or you'd leave and go to greener pastures. I'm sure you could make up the difference in a matter of years since you'd be bailing to a "better airline" with much better rules and pay. Why hang around and be with such a "loser airline"? I just don't get guys like you..........you'll NEVER be happy. Too bad your negativity infects good pilots. What a shame. I think the reason you "hide" is because we migh just find out you're a SCAB...... as a matter of fact, I'd almost bet on it. :eek:

Karl,

Your much closer to resembling a scab than I ever will. Rolling over ever time management says boo is straight out of a scabs playbook. Why not join the rest of us and tell management that permanent concessions are not part of our playbook and that you'd like to join us in saying no?

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 07:19 AM
.......... So...USMC. ..........

That explains a LOT............:p I agree with you 100%. I do my best to make CAL a better place to work. If you stay positive, then better things will come. Complaining has never done much other than making a person feel miserable. I'm just as mad about out last contract too when I see a BOD chair being held by a pastor who gets PS0 business first for himself and his family, along with stock options and a nice stipend. What a ripoff. But, I can't change that and would much rather be happy with my crew and what I do. Management does work for the shareholder, and not wanting to be left out, I AM a shareholder, so I WANT my company to succeed, and see happy employees. 9-11 was not nice to our country or industry. Unfortunately, oil has not been nice either, but one way or another we'll get back what we gave up plus more. I have no doubt about that at all, but we have to stay professional, positive, and upbeat, or we'll lose out again. Once was enough. Larry has a job to do, and I have a job to do, but using a slingshot (us), against a Sherman tank (management), isn't going to hurt anyone but ourselves. Pitting the pilots against each other never solved anything either. That's why I can't understand why some on this forum want to do nothing but degrade everyone and think that's productive. We are all entitled to our opinions, but attacking someone for their views isn't such a brilliant idea. We either work together or fall apart. JMHO

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 07:21 AM
Karl,

Your much closer to resembling a scab than I ever will. Rolling over ever time management says boo is straight out of a scabs playbook. Why not join the rest of us and tell management that permanent concessions are not part of our playbook and that you'd like to join us in saying no?

See my last post, this is JUST what I was talking about. Rather than sit on this forum and blast me, how about volunteering to do some UNION work? I'll be doing that on my next two blocks of days off. And you? I know, you're probably too busy.............. You can attack me all you want, but at least I'm TRYING to make things better for our pilot group, rather than sitting around and complaining all the time about how bad things are........

757Driver
11-27-2007, 07:25 AM
See my last post, this is JUST what I was talking about. Rather than sit on this forum and blast me, how about volunteering to do some UNION work? I'll be doing that on my next two blocks of days off. And you? I know, you're probably too busy.............. You can attack me all you want, but at least I'm TRYING to make things better for our pilot group, rather than sitting around and complaining all the time about how bad things are........

Wrong again Karl, I'm currently involved with the Union and have been since the IACP days. Nice try though.

ToiletDuck
11-27-2007, 07:29 AM
I'd still like to work at CAL. Just might be some time. I don't really see them moving out of Houston so yay for me. I am hoping that this current contract has taught the other pilots a lesson and unified the group a little more. With the company making money hand over fist I'd love for them to get a piece of the deal.

Does the CAL pilot group have a union/community forum? My regional airline does and it works great at bringing the pilot group together. Makes it easy to get help with grievances, swapping trips, contacting people for info etc. We have study guides and many other help files on there. I'm not sure how far you can get without being an actual pilot for us but take a look. www.republicpilots.org It's a great layout.

On another note guys does going to a job fair really help much? I don't meet all the requirements as of yet. No atp and couple hundred short on the multi-turbine but I've got the rest down. Just wondering if I should actually bother or not.

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 07:51 AM
Wrong again Karl, I'm currently involved with the Union and have been since the IACP days. Nice try though.

Great, nice to see how you beat up on fellow UNION brothers. You sure had me fooled. BTW, what do you do for the union?

Ottopilot
11-27-2007, 08:20 AM
You CAL pilots fighting each other online doesn't help anyone. If I were looking for work, I wouldn't choose CAL after reading these posts. Relax. :)

jdt30
11-27-2007, 08:30 AM
ToiletDuck,
If you don't know anyone at Cal then I would definately try the job fair. A guy I know was offered an interview days after going to the fair, and offered a job shortly after the interview.

Eric Stratton
11-27-2007, 08:37 AM
ewrbasedpilot, you keep telling people that CAL is so great and if they don't like it they should leave even after 20 years :rolleyes: but what is it that makes CAL one of the top company's to work for in the country?

mundo1
11-27-2007, 10:08 AM
Reading this thread brings me thoughts of how much management must be loving the fragmentation of our pilot group. It appears to me that this is not just a symptom, but a chronic illness.

With contract time at our doorstep we should be channeling our energy in educating, yes, educating our membership instead of attacking anyone who has a different view or opinion. As captains, we have an excellent platform to pass-on information to our new hires, and for that matter, to our fellow aviators.

757Driver, I understand your feelings toward management. In many respects I feel the same way. But attacking others who donít feel as strongly as you do on some issues will not help your cause. Most pilots at CAL understand that improvements in pay and quality of life are imperative in the next contract, but beating them on the head will not align them with you. Why not take a more rational approach in order to use all the resources available to us and negociate the absolute best contract possible.

Here is the unavoidable reality about CALís pilot group, there are military and civilian pilots, older and younger pilots, scabs, union neutral and union militant pilots. Each group brings a somewhat different culture to the mix, and management loves it. Instead of having each group push in the direction of their own agenda, lets all push for a common goal - a great contract.

This time around we have an added responsibility, for we are the first legacy in contract negotiations after the last economic downturn. So lets set the bar. I enjoy being a CAL pilot but know that there is a lot of room for improvement.

Remember, managementís job (in every industry) is to produce the most at the lowest cost. So instead of attacking each other lets for once glue the fragments and move forward as one.

P

jdt30
11-27-2007, 11:47 AM
Mundo,
That was an excellent post.
JDT

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 12:06 PM
You CAL pilots fighting each other online doesn't help anyone. If I were looking for work, I wouldn't choose CAL after reading these posts. Relax. :)

Exactly my point Otto. You hit the nail on the head. The sad thing is, is that telling other people you work for a crappy company only makes things worse since the quality pilots will go elsewhere, thereby leaving the 'leftovers' for us to hire. Guess who gets to fly with the leftovers????? US!!!! Then we'll complain about the "quality" of pilots we hire. So management will slow down the hiring leaving us in a staffing shortage. All the bickering amongst pilots does nothing to help our cause at all. CAL IS a great company to work for. It certainly is nice to be hiring like gangbusters, getting new planes AND making money. The last part is what will help us get what's due to us. Thanks for the good post...

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 12:07 PM
......... I enjoy being a CAL pilot but know that there is a lot of room for improvement.

....


That's my feeling in a nutshell, and why I try to make things better for our pilots/crewmembers. Nice post!

ewrbasedpilot
11-27-2007, 12:18 PM
ewrbasedpilot, you keep telling people that CAL is so great and if they don't like it they should leave even after 20 years :rolleyes: but what is it that makes CAL one of the top company's to work for in the country?


Hi Eric,
ANY company is as good as you make it. I try to have a great time on all my trips with all my crews, whether I'm flying to SXM or ORD. Sure, some crews aren't as pleasant as others, but when I arrive at the airplane, I set an upbeat tone, and it usually is contagious among everyone. The passengers love seeing a happy crew, and it makes the delays and other problems seem petty. I've only flown with 3 or 4 total jerks, a couple of semi-jerks, and the rest have been great to fly with. Most of the people at CAL are fantastic people to work with. Sure we get jealous that management makes so much money, but who doesn't? I'm flying some of the newest equipment out there, fly to great destinations, have a great time at my annual PC, and get treated well. Sure I'd like to get rid of PBS, and make more money, but who wouldn't? If I didn't like my job or company, I'd look elsewhere. Since I've been at CAL for almost 10 years, I've never even entertained the thought of leaving. My 401K is through Charles Schwab as is our B plan, so I am in charge of my retirement money, NOT CAL. I see what it does every day. These are just a few of the things I enjoy about CAL. If it wasn't such a good airline, there wouldn't be so many pilots trying to land a job here. ;)

OscartheGrouch
11-27-2007, 01:29 PM
Hi Eric,
ANY company is as good as you make it. I try to have a great time on all my trips with all my crews, whether I'm flying to SXM or ORD. Sure, some crews aren't as pleasant as others, but when I arrive at the airplane, I set an upbeat tone, and it usually is contagious among everyone. The passengers love seeing a happy crew, and it makes the delays and other problems seem petty. I've only flown with 3 or 4 total jerks, a couple of semi-jerks, and the rest have been great to fly with. Most of the people at CAL are fantastic people to work with. Sure we get jealous that management makes so much money, but who doesn't? I'm flying some of the newest equipment out there, fly to great destinations, have a great time at my annual PC, and get treated well. Sure I'd like to get rid of PBS, and make more money, but who wouldn't? If I didn't like my job or company, I'd look elsewhere. Since I've been at CAL for almost 10 years, I've never even entertained the thought of leaving. My 401K is through Charles Schwab as is our B plan, so I am in charge of my retirement money, NOT CAL. I see what it does every day. These are just a few of the things I enjoy about CAL. If it wasn't such a good airline, there wouldn't be so many pilots trying to land a job here. ;)

EWR,

Oooooh! You sound like you work at SWA and are enjoying the koolaid we partake in.

Actually, I have observed and seen that CAL has made huge improvements and I agree with you. Funny thing is your above just described the normal day at SWA. Keep making your work place somewhere you enjoy to be instead of allowing someone else to dictate how your day will go!

BTW. I can only hope that PBS will NEVER make it on property at SWA.:)

sydney5316
11-27-2007, 02:24 PM
ewrbasedpilot, you keep telling people that CAL is so great and if they don't like it they should leave even after 20 years :rolleyes: but what is it that makes CAL one of the top company's to work for in the country?


Occasional pizza parties!!!:D

Eric Stratton
11-27-2007, 02:34 PM
Hi Eric,
ANY company is as good as you make it. I try to have a great time on all my trips with all my crews, whether I'm flying to SXM or ORD. Sure, some crews aren't as pleasant as others, but when I arrive at the airplane, I set an upbeat tone, and it usually is contagious among everyone. The passengers love seeing a happy crew, and it makes the delays and other problems seem petty. I've only flown with 3 or 4 total jerks, a couple of semi-jerks, and the rest have been great to fly with. Most of the people at CAL are fantastic people to work with. Sure we get jealous that management makes so much money, but who doesn't? I'm flying some of the newest equipment out there, fly to great destinations, have a great time at my annual PC, and get treated well. Sure I'd like to get rid of PBS, and make more money, but who wouldn't? If I didn't like my job or company, I'd look elsewhere. Since I've been at CAL for almost 10 years, I've never even entertained the thought of leaving. My 401K is through Charles Schwab as is our B plan, so I am in charge of my retirement money, NOT CAL. I see what it does every day. These are just a few of the things I enjoy about CAL. If it wasn't such a good airline, there wouldn't be so many pilots trying to land a job here. ;)

None of that says why CAL should be ranked as one of the best places to work for in the country. That just says that no matter what happens you are going to try and make it enjoyable for yourself, crew and not take it out on the passengers. What I get from what you wrote is that no matter where you work or what you do you would do your best to make it a better place but that doesn't mean it is a great place to work for.

I don't think it should be a jealousy toward management but more anger and disdain. Didn't the top few split around $26 million the first year after the paycuts. I thought the moto was working together not paycuts and bonuses. Management has always made more money but in bad times that shouldn't mean they get more and the others get less. The only good thing that I can see with CAL it the hiring and movement. The bads are the contract, pay, PBS not honoring seniority, no health insurance for 6 months and once you get it from what I've heard it isn't that stellar. (the last one seems to be the norm now everywhere)

The thing I was looking for is why was CAL named one of the best places to work because I just don't see it. It may be better that some other airlines but I don't think it is top 100 quality.

The reason you have people applying is that there are other places that are worse, they're called the regionals. It also seems that 10% of the new hires believe that there are better places out there too. fedex, ups, swa, delta and even nwa.

Eric Stratton
11-27-2007, 02:41 PM
Occasional pizza parties!!!:D

do you still have thanksgiving meals or is that gone?

Ottopilot
11-27-2007, 02:42 PM
The thing I was looking for is why was CAL named one of the best places to work because I just don't see it.

That was for CEO's, not pilots. :D

Ottopilot
11-27-2007, 02:43 PM
do you still have thanksgiving meals or is that gone?


I've never had a free pizza or any kind of food from CAL (not including our wonderful catering on the planes:rolleyes:).

Ottopilot
11-27-2007, 02:44 PM
I do remember a time long ago (late 90's) when we got turkey certificates every year. I almost forgot.

Eric Stratton
11-27-2007, 02:54 PM
Exactly my point Otto. You hit the nail on the head. The sad thing is, is that telling other people you work for a crappy company only makes things worse since the quality pilots will go elsewhere, thereby leaving the 'leftovers' for us to hire. Guess who gets to fly with the leftovers????? US!!!! Then we'll complain about the "quality" of pilots we hire. So management will slow down the hiring leaving us in a staffing shortage. All the bickering amongst pilots does nothing to help our cause at all. CAL IS a great company to work for. It certainly is nice to be hiring like gangbusters, getting new planes AND making money. The last part is what will help us get what's due to us. Thanks for the good post...

So do you bend the truth to make it look better because that is fairly shady in my mind.

If management slows hiring because they aren't getting the quality that they want then all they would have to do is raise quality of life for it's employees making it more attractive for others to come work their. ie better pay, contract and fixing PBS and then they would get better applicants. That's like nwa saying there is a pilot shortage because they got around 2000 applicants vs. 13,000 the last time around. There isn't a shortage of pilots just a shortage of pilots willing to work under poor pay and contracts. If nwa put it's old contract in I'm sure they would get the 13,000. A company not getting qualified applicants is a management fault and not the fault of employees speaking their mind.

A320fumes
11-27-2007, 03:22 PM
Does the CAL pilot group have a union/community forum? My regional airline does and it works great at bringing the pilot group together. Makes it easy to get help with grievances, swapping trips, contacting people for info etc. We have study guides and many other help files on there. I'm not sure how far you can get without being an actual pilot for us but take a look. www.republicpilots.org (http://www.republicpilots.org) It's a great layout.

Nothing like that @ CAL.

You CAL pilots fighting each other online doesn't help anyone. If I were looking for work, I wouldn't choose CAL after reading these posts. Relax. :)

Ditto.

Cal's web-board, paid for by ALPA dues, has been "under construction" since I was hired in Summer '05. A couple of guys created their own "cal forum", but it's a pay-site with limited membership. Our Union leadership has historically been used to sell the membership on an idea, PBS, Contract '02, etc. Then they move onto management, a good thing @ CAL, once they've sold out the group. Probably the same guys holding up construction on the boards.

It's embarrassing to see CAL pilots ripping into each other on a public forum. A solid union would gut us terribly should we merge. Delta had a staple, with re-interview of all CAL pilot approved by the CAL BOD in 1998. Should have learned from that.

reCALcitrant
11-27-2007, 05:03 PM
That explains a LOT............:p I agree with you 100%. I do my best to make CAL a better place to work. If you stay positive, then better things will come. Complaining has never done much other than making a person feel miserable. I'm just as mad about out last contract too when I see a BOD chair being held by a pastor who gets PS0 business first for himself and his family, along with stock options and a nice stipend. What a ripoff. But, I can't change that and would much rather be happy with my crew and what I do. Management does work for the shareholder, and not wanting to be left out, I AM a shareholder, so I WANT my company to succeed, and see happy employees. 9-11 was not nice to our country or industry. Unfortunately, oil has not been nice either, but one way or another we'll get back what we gave up plus more. I have no doubt about that at all, but we have to stay professional, positive, and upbeat, or we'll lose out again. Once was enough. Larry has a job to do, and I have a job to do, but using a slingshot (us), against a Sherman tank (management), isn't going to hurt anyone but ourselves. Pitting the pilots against each other never solved anything either. That's why I can't understand why some on this forum want to do nothing but degrade everyone and think that's productive. We are all entitled to our opinions, but attacking someone for their views isn't such a brilliant idea. We either work together or fall apart. JMHO

Agreed on the work together part. A vote should be 90% or more in one direction. That's how good our communication needs to be. BTW. I am indeed not a shareholder. And unless you own preferred stock, neither are you. The shareholder who buys regular stock does not make a damn to these people. Only major players with preferred stock and higher. Let's get it done on the next contract!! Not everybody will always get along or agree. But our voice should be one.

JoeyMeatballs
11-27-2007, 05:05 PM
hey, any of your EWR based CAL Guys going to "Pilots for Kids", Ill be going on the 18th to the Lehigh Valley Hospital.............carpool maybe????

reCALcitrant
11-27-2007, 05:11 PM
None of that says why CAL should be ranked as one of the best places to work for in the country. That just says that no matter what happens you are going to try and make it enjoyable for yourself, crew and not take it out on the passengers. What I get from what you wrote is that no matter where you work or what you do you would do your best to make it a better place but that doesn't mean it is a great place to work for.

I don't think it should be a jealousy toward management but more anger and disdain. Didn't the top few split around $26 million the first year after the paycuts. I thought the moto was working together not paycuts and bonuses. Management has always made more money but in bad times that shouldn't mean they get more and the others get less. The only good thing that I can see with CAL it the hiring and movement. The bads are the contract, pay, PBS not honoring seniority, no health insurance for 6 months and once you get it from what I've heard it isn't that stellar. (the last one seems to be the norm now everywhere)

The thing I was looking for is why was CAL named one of the best places to work because I just don't see it. It may be better that some other airlines but I don't think it is top 100 quality.

The reason you have people applying is that there are other places that are worse, they're called the regionals. It also seems that 10% of the new hires believe that there are better places out there too. fedex, ups, swa, delta and even nwa.

One comment on this. The 6 months is wrong and WILL be fixed on this contract. After you get it you choose BCBS or Aetna etc. The BCBS is EXACTLY what I had with the federal government...only cheaper. My whole family with $1500 year deductible is $180 per month. The coverage is superior. Just had to correct that. Sorry if someone told you differently.

757Driver
11-27-2007, 05:36 PM
It's embarrassing to see CAL pilots ripping into each other on a public forum.

You won't see me apologizing for ripping into a fellow Pilot who completely capitulates every time management asks him to do so.

I've been around for 20 long years and am sick and tired of trying to educate the uneducated, (see scabs, idiots who buy into managements bs and give away the store, ect..).

I'm sick and tired of working for a third rate airline whose Pilots continually take it up the rear and thank management for the KY jelly.

When you've been here for 20 years and NOTHING changes, you tend to get extremely jaded.

Over it and out.

Eric Stratton
11-27-2007, 05:43 PM
One comment on this. The 6 months is wrong and WILL be fixed on this contract. After you get it you choose BCBS or Aetna etc. The BCBS is EXACTLY what I had with the federal government...only cheaper. My whole family with $1500 year deductible is $180 per month. The coverage is superior. Just had to correct that. Sorry if someone told you differently.

Can you get 100% coverage or is it 90% along with a deductable. At my regional job I had full coverage with only co-pays and was less than what my buddy pays at CAL. From what I've been told is that it has steadily gotten worse over the years.

reCALcitrant
11-27-2007, 05:47 PM
None of that says why CAL should be ranked as one of the best places to work for in the country. That just says that no matter what happens you are going to try and make it enjoyable for yourself, crew and not take it out on the passengers. What I get from what you wrote is that no matter where you work or what you do you would do your best to make it a better place but that doesn't mean it is a great place to work for.

I don't think it should be a jealousy toward management but more anger and disdain. Didn't the top few split around $26 million the first year after the paycuts. I thought the moto was working together not paycuts and bonuses. Management has always made more money but in bad times that shouldn't mean they get more and the others get less. The only good thing that I can see with CAL it the hiring and movement. The bads are the contract, pay, PBS not honoring seniority, no health insurance for 6 months and once you get it from what I've heard it isn't that stellar. (the last one seems to be the norm now everywhere)

The thing I was looking for is why was CAL named one of the best places to work because I just don't see it. It may be better that some other airlines but I don't think it is top 100 quality.

The reason you have people applying is that there are other places that are worse, they're called the regionals. It also seems that 10% of the new hires believe that there are better places out there too. fedex, ups, swa, delta and even nwa.

I was just in giving my kids a bath. I was thinking about your question as to why CAL is a good job. I have 7 hours this month. 2 turns. Half of one of them was a dead head. I am on late call tommorrow and there is no trip even in PBS until the 30th. I am not eligible for that trip as I am done on the 1st. On most days you ask me, this is the story. Sometimes every job sucks. Usually this job rocks. But don't be fooled by my happiness. As with 757driver, I agree we have a lot to fix. You have to get all you can why it's good. You can be sure management is!!;)

shadow95
11-27-2007, 06:49 PM
I have a CAL interview early Dec. I have the sim at 0900 and interview at 1315. I have some questions:

Do you wear a suit for the sim?
When is the new CAL contract coming out?


Thanks.

ToiletDuck
11-27-2007, 07:20 PM
You won't see me apologizing for ripping into a fellow Pilot who completely capitulates every time management asks him to do so.

I've been around for 20 long years and am sick and tired of trying to educate the uneducated, (see scabs, idiots who buy into managements bs and give away the store, ect..).

I'm sick and tired of working for a third rate airline whose Pilots continually take it up the rear and thank management for the KY jelly.

When you've been here for 20 years and NOTHING changes, you tend to get extremely jaded.

Over it and out.
757 I understand where you are coming from, but there is no measure to how much of a difference you have made. You'll never know how many people have made decisions based on what lessons/business ethics/morals they have learned from you. The only thing that's easy to tell is when someone hasn't done the right thing. I find it hard to believe that someone who's been there for so long has had no affect on the place. The reason the place is as good as it currently is could be largely based on you and other pilots of like mind.

From what I hear a good number of SCABS are leaving this year. That should set an instant boost to moral on some level. Today I jumpseated with a captain who has been there over 20yrs. We had a good long chat about the place and I learned a thing or two. I must also say that I've been jumpseating almost twice a week for the past 8 months and have never flown with a better group of guys. Another reason I want to work there. I understand your hostilities but there is no reason to give up. That only means some scab actually won.

Eric Stratton
11-27-2007, 07:20 PM
I have a CAL interview early Dec. I have the sim at 0900 and interview at 1315. I have some questions:

Do you wear a suit for the sim?
When is the new CAL contract coming out?


Thanks.

god yes

in a few years, it takes that long unless it's a paycut and those only seem to take a few months.

ToiletDuck
11-27-2007, 07:25 PM
Nothing like that @ CAL.



A320 if you guys seriously want something like that I know Jeremy also runs one for Horizon. It's a side business of his. The service is great and reliable. He has never made it fee based for us. We just send in small donations here and there and it's always covered the bill. Send me a PM if you or someone else would like to take some initiative and get in touch with him. Our board is the most unifying thing within our pilot group.

fender1
11-27-2007, 07:36 PM
I have a CAL interview early Dec. I have the sim at 0900 and interview at 1315. I have some questions:

Do you wear a suit for the sim?
When is the new CAL contract coming out?



You're gonna fit in just fine.

A320fumes
11-27-2007, 07:40 PM
A320 if you guys seriously want something like that I know Jeremy also runs one for Horizon. It's a side business of his. The service is great and reliable. He has never made it fee based for us. We just send in small donations here and there and it's always covered the bill. Send me a PM if you or someone else would like to take some initiative and get in touch with him. Our board is the most unifying thing within our pilot group.

Duck:

I appreciate the offer and agree that it was a powerful tool at my previous airlines. My gripe is that when I log onto my MEC's website forums, nothing happens. Some guys have a pretty good forum, but it's been my experience that the guys who actively join a certain forum pretty much all think the same way and meaningful debate suffers. Scab captain showed me their forum. Believe it or not, the scabs have shown the greatest amount of unity @ CAL. It disgust me that my union doesn't want their own forum, so that we CAL guys could stop airing our dirty laundry and perhaps even become unified.

A320fumes
11-27-2007, 07:58 PM
You won't see me apologizing for ripping into a fellow Pilot who completely capitulates every time management asks him to do so.

I've been around for 20 long years and am sick and tired of trying to educate the uneducated, (see scabs, idiots who buy into managements bs and give away the store, etc..).

I'm sick and tired of working for a third rate airline whose Pilots continually take it up the rear and thank management for the KY jelly.

When you've been here for 20 years and NOTHING changes, you tend to get extremely jaded.

Over it and out.

Not looking for an apology 75. And let it be known that I agree with 90+% of all your post. I also agree with 90+% of ewrbased. Keep doing your thing to educate your fo's without ripping apart the guys we don't agree with and we can probably make something happen next go around. Most of the ex-jet guys showed up ****ed-off. They'll be a valuable asset when voting commences. BTW, do you know who is responsible for the CAL ALPA forum. It's something that I'd like to see so that we could all rip each other apart in the comfort of our own dues appropriated forum. I'd like to have all 5,000 of our guys there. A union's primary weapon, by definition, is unity. Pretty sure I've flown with you, this month, enjoyed it. Did you do a Manchester?

shadow95
11-28-2007, 03:50 AM
????

Also,

Anyone know the current upgarde time for the 737 out of Newark? I heard it was 2-3 years, but it may be higher in the next few years? Please give straight forward answers. Thanks for answering my questions.

shadow95
11-28-2007, 03:54 AM
You're gonna fit in just fine.


?????

Also,

I have heard the upgrade time for the 737 at Newark is about 2-3 years, but it is shifting higher. Can anyone shed light on this? I appreciate straight forward answers...need some help in a short period of time. Thanks in advance.

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 04:00 AM
You won't see me apologizing for ripping into a fellow Pilot who completely capitulates every time management asks him to do so.

I've been around for 20 long years and am sick and tired of trying to educate the uneducated, (see scabs, idiots who buy into managements bs and give away the store, ect..).

I'm sick and tired of working for a third rate airline whose Pilots continually take it up the rear and thank management for the KY jelly.

When you've been here for 20 years and NOTHING changes, you tend to get extremely jaded.

Over it and out.

Then LEAVE. What part of LEAVE don't you understand????? Go be happy somewhere else. (I KNOW you'd hate anywhere you ended up, it's your nature). You gripe and moan about EVERYTHING. You are your own worst enemy here. People hate being around negative people all the time. YOU are the master of your destiny, and it appears you ENJOY being miserable. :eek: You can do something about it but choose not to, so QUIT THE CONSTANT COMPLAINING. You can pack your bags and no one will care. But for now, you're your own worst enemy. Go work for a first rate airline and leave us alone. If after being here and supposedly getting hosed for twenty years you're still here, then you're not as bright as you say you are. Geez, get a life dude. BTW, you still haven't answered my question of what you do for the union. Is it the chairman of the complaining committee?

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 04:11 AM
None of that says why CAL should be ranked as one of the best places to work for in the country. That just says that no matter what happens you are going to try and make it enjoyable for yourself, crew and not take it out on the passengers. What I get from what you wrote is that no matter where you work or what you do you would do your best to make it a better place but that doesn't mean it is a great place to work for.

I don't think it should be a jealousy toward management but more anger and disdain. Didn't the top few split around $26 million the first year after the paycuts. I thought the moto was working together not paycuts and bonuses. Management has always made more money but in bad times that shouldn't mean they get more and the others get less. The only good thing that I can see with CAL it the hiring and movement. The bads are the contract, pay, PBS not honoring seniority, no health insurance for 6 months and once you get it from what I've heard it isn't that stellar. (the last one seems to be the norm now everywhere)

The thing I was looking for is why was CAL named one of the best places to work because I just don't see it. It may be better that some other airlines but I don't think it is top 100 quality.

The reason you have people applying is that there are other places that are worse, they're called the regionals. It also seems that 10% of the new hires believe that there are better places out there too. fedex, ups, swa, delta and even nwa.

So then what makes a company good to work for? I stated I have nice working conditions, great places to fly, new equipment, great people to work with, etc.. What am I missing here? As for people applying here, if it WASN'T a great place to work, then they wouldn't be applying or wanting to join us. ALL companies have bad things about them. What puts an airline in your top quality category? There's more to the equation than the pilots. 10% of newhires think there's a better place than CAL? That means 90% think CAL is one of the better ones.................guess that's not a high enough number for you.

Ottopilot
11-28-2007, 05:14 AM
?????

Also,

I have heard the upgrade time for the 737 at Newark is about 2-3 years, but it is shifting higher. Can anyone shed light on this? I appreciate straight forward answers...need some help in a short period of time. Thanks in advance.


I've been at CAL 2.5 years and I start upgrade training on Monday.

reCALcitrant
11-28-2007, 05:29 AM
????

Also,

Anyone know the current upgarde time for the 737 out of Newark? I heard it was 2-3 years, but it may be higher in the next few years? Please give straight forward answers. Thanks for answering my questions.

1 year and 11 months. He was in the class ahead of me.

reCALcitrant
11-28-2007, 05:32 AM
I've been at CAL 2.5 years and I start upgrade training on Monday.

Hey Otto, are you switching airframes? Just curious how the transition will be. Keep me updated.

Ottopilot
11-28-2007, 05:56 AM
Hey Otto, are you switching airframes? Just curious how the transition will be. Keep me updated.

Yea, from the 756. I started in the 737, so I get the "short course".

757Driver
11-28-2007, 06:13 AM
757 I understand where you are coming from, but there is no measure to how much of a difference you have made. You'll never know how many people have made decisions based on what lessons/business ethics/morals they have learned from you. The only thing that's easy to tell is when someone hasn't done the right thing. I find it hard to believe that someone who's been there for so long has had no affect on the place. The reason the place is as good as it currently is could be largely based on you and other pilots of like mind.

From what I hear a good number of SCABS are leaving this year. That should set an instant boost to moral on some level. Today I jumpseated with a captain who has been there over 20yrs. We had a good long chat about the place and I learned a thing or two. I must also say that I've been jumpseating almost twice a week for the past 8 months and have never flown with a better group of guys. Another reason I want to work there. I understand your hostilities but there is no reason to give up. That only means some scab actually won.

TD,


Like Karl, I enjoy the flying part of being employed at CAL solely because of the great Pilots I fly with. I'm not sure if its because we've been screwed by management time and time again but, you won't find a more laid back bunch if Pilots anywhere.

That being said, we also have an extreme we're not worthy attitude that follows us around like a black cloud. Would we be the easy going, laid-back types we are if we were the best paid Pilots out there, I don't know?

What I do know is that at any other carrier the nonsense that goes on here at CAL wouldn't be tolerated. Daily contract violations, managements free for all at the feeding trough, those are just the tip of the iceberg.

Our Union is currently being led by a man who uses a reptile to describe himself and doesn't say a word when the company violates our contract. We'd be better off if he never showed up and let our Vice Chairman run the show.

Again, all that being said I do enjoy my job but the constant battle with the Karl's and the Rusty's wear you down. Yes Karl, you are worthy of industry leading pay. Just because you don't feel you are doesn't mean the rest of us don't deserve it.

757Driver
11-28-2007, 06:19 AM
Then LEAVE. What part of LEAVE don't you understand????? Go be happy somewhere else. (I KNOW you'd hate anywhere you ended up, it's your nature). You gripe and moan about EVERYTHING. You are your own worst enemy here. People hate being around negative people all the time. YOU are the master of your destiny, and it appears you ENJOY being miserable. :eek: You can do something about it but choose not to, so QUIT THE CONSTANT COMPLAINING. You can pack your bags and no one will care. But for now, you're your own worst enemy. Go work for a first rate airline and leave us alone. If after being here and supposedly getting hosed for twenty years you're still here, then you're not as bright as you say you are. Geez, get a life dude. BTW, you still haven't answered my question of what you do for the union. Is it the chairman of the complaining committee?

Karl,

I can guaranty that my crews have more fun with me than they ever will with you. If you count uniform counseling and telling F/O's why they should have voted Yes as "fun", than perhaps you have me beat. I strive to improve things despite people like you but I don't tow it around during trips.

You're a company guy and that's fine, just stick to the Uniform committee and stay away from anything that affects my pocketbook and we'll get along just fine.

757Driver
11-28-2007, 06:22 AM
Pretty sure I've flown with you, this month, enjoyed it. Did you do a Manchester?


Perhaps ;)

mundo1
11-28-2007, 06:23 AM
There are plenty of opportunities worldwide for those who are unhappy with their current employers:

http://www.crewresourcesworldwide.com/positions_contractsummary_AirJapan_B767_Captains.h tm

http://www.crewresourcesworldwide.com/positions_contractsummary_ANA_JP_Express_B767_Capt ains.htm

http://www.rishworth.co.nz/opportunities/details.asp?oppid=861&cat=1

Although I suspect that personal attitudes donít normally improve by changing jobs for they are part of a personís make-up.

P

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 06:25 AM
Karl,

I can guaranty that my crews have more fun with me than they ever will with you. If you count uniform counseling and telling F/O's why they should have voted Yes as "fun", than perhaps you have me beat.

You're a company guy and that's fine, just stick to the Uniform committee and stay away from anything that affects my pocketbook and we'll get along just fine.

Yeah, I bet. I take my crews out for dinner on my dime, treat them to Starbucks each day, and when we're in my neck of the woods, take them to a day at the beach. The only people I've "counseled" on uniform wear are the ones who think looking like a pig is "in" (which, sad to say, is mainly disgruntled CA's like you). I've never berated anyone for their vote on the contract, unlike you who seems to think it's "productive"...it ISN'T. You still haven't answered my question as to what you're doing for our union which leads to believe me you're just full of hot air. Thanks.......we need more of that, right?:rolleyes: BTW, I'm sure you told your commanders off in the military and called them names when you didn't agree with them too, huh? Oh, and the "complaining committee" isn't a real union committee, contrary to what you seem to believe.

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 06:30 AM
TD,

.......Again, all that being said I do enjoy my job but the constant battle with the Karl's and the Rusty's wear you down. Yes Karl, you are worthy of industry leading pay. Just because you don't feel you are doesn't mean the rest of us don't deserve it.


See, that's where you are DEAD WRONG. I've NEVER said we weren't worthy of industry leading pay. I've NEVER said we shouldn't have it either, so knock off the "I'm fighting this battle against the Karl's and Rusty's" crap. Your "bully" attitude is so blah anymore. Can't you do better than that? Geez.

jdt30
11-28-2007, 06:34 AM
Guys,
Come on, I agree with alot of the things both of you write, but why don't you start pm'ing each other. Or just agree to disagree. We could set up a cage match in the EWR crew room since it looks like an unbooked convention hall. I'll even bring a few urinals from IAH.

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 07:21 AM
Guys,
Come on, I agree with alot of the things both of you write, but why don't you start pm'ing each other. Or just agree to disagree. We could set up a cage match in the EWR crew room since it looks like an unbooked convention hall. I'll even bring a few urinals from IAH.

You're right.....sorry.

jdt30
11-28-2007, 07:38 AM
Don't worry about it. Cal is a good place to work because of most of the guys and gals we work with, but we definately need to improve the working conditions and the pay. We also need to kick some of the pilot's in the rear when it comes to looking professional. If you don't look and act like a professional why do you think you deserve to get payed like a professional?

Eric Stratton
11-28-2007, 07:44 AM
So then what makes a company good to work for? I stated I have nice working conditions, great places to fly, new equipment, great people to work with, etc.. What am I missing here? As for people applying here, if it WASN'T a great place to work, then they wouldn't be applying or wanting to join us. ALL companies have bad things about them. What puts an airline in your top quality category? There's more to the equation than the pilots. 10% of newhires think there's a better place than CAL? That means 90% think CAL is one of the better ones.................guess that's not a high enough number for you.

What you are missing is paycuts, subpar contract due to paycuts, pbs not honoring seniority, blatant violations of the contract. The attemped firing of a pilot for following the contract and the VP being a bully over crew rest seats. Did the chief pilot go to bat for the pilot or company?

The reason people apply is the same reason that they did back in 1987, it's better than where they are currently at and it has greater potential than others. Under your explanation alligiant would be a great place to work because they get pilots as well and I'm sure most of those crews are fun to work with as with most crews at every airline. When I started at my regional it had all the things you said but it surely wasn't a top 100 company.

I'm not saying that CAL isn't better than alot of other airlines out there, I just don't believe that it is a top 100 company especially after what's happened in the last 6 years. I'm betting that 90% has a lot to do with the fact that the airlines are a seniority based job (pay and quality of life issues) or people would be jumping ship left and right at ALL airlines. It's the old saying apply to every airline and go with the one that hires you first.

mundo1
11-28-2007, 07:49 AM
Don't worry about it. Cal is a good place to work because of most of the guys and gals we work with, but we definately need to improve the working conditions and the pay. We also need to kick some of the pilot's in the rear when it comes to looking professional. If you don't look and act like a professional why do you think you deserve to get payed like a professional?


Looking and acting like a professional are key. Contract improvements should be negotiated rationally. Everything we say and write are extensions of ourselves, so when we get on this forum and act unprofessionally we destroy our credibility.

Stating our professionalism by acting as such is more effective than merely speaking about it.

P

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 08:02 AM
What you are missing is paycuts, subpar contract due to paycuts, pbs not honoring seniority, blatant violations of the contract. The attemped firing of a pilot for following the contract and the VP being a bully over crew rest seats. Did the chief pilot go to bat for the pilot or company?

The reason people apply is the same reason that they did back in 1987, it's better than where they are currently at and it has greater potential than others. Under your explanation alligiant would be a great place to work because they get pilots as well and I'm sure most of those crews are fun to work with as with most crews at every airline. When I started at my regional it had all the things you said but it surely wasn't a top 100 company.

I'm not saying that CAL isn't better than alot of other airlines out there, I just don't believe that it is a top 100 company especially after what's happened in the last 6 years. I'm betting that 90% has a lot to do with the fact that the airlines are a seniority based job (pay and quality of life issues) or people would be jumping ship left and right at ALL airlines. It's the old saying apply to every airline and go with the one that hires you first.

Are you talking about CAL being the top place to work for as a pilot? After what's happened in the past 6 years none of the airlines is a GREAT place to work for. CAL wasn't responsible for 9/11, oil prices, cutbacks, etc. It's trying to stay competitive, and in this cutthroat environment the pilots happened to get whacked exceptionally hard. Why? Because as a group we make more than the rest of the employee groups. It's hard to go after a ramper making $10 an hour and barely getting by, vs a pilot who's making $190 an hour an has to take a 10% paycut. I don't like it anymore than the next guy, but you have to be realistic too. I'm not quite sure what qualifies an airline to make the grade for you...........:confused:

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 08:03 AM
Don't worry about it. Cal is a good place to work because of most of the guys and gals we work with, but we definately need to improve the working conditions and the pay. We also need to kick some of the pilot's in the rear when it comes to looking professional. If you don't look and act like a professional why do you think you deserve to get payed like a professional?

Agreed, 100%!

Eric Stratton
11-28-2007, 08:06 AM
Looking and acting like a professional are key. Contract improvements should be negotiated rationally. Everything we say and write are extensions of ourselves, so when we get on this forum and act unprofessionally we destroy our credibility.

Stating our professionalism by acting as such is more effective than merely speaking about it.

P

should contracts also take years to negociate when there are improvements and only months for concessions. What's the rational behind that? When people also roll over to management everytime they say boo, I think that destroys our credibility as well.

I had a captain tell me that he didn't mind that the CEO got a huge pay raise while the employee's took a pay cut. he said it only amounted to $5000 for each employee and it didn't mean that much to him. I asked if I could have $5 grand then and he looked at me like I was on crack. I then asked who do you think needs that $5k more a millionaire or someone struggling to make their mortage payments?

mundo1
11-28-2007, 08:23 AM
What you are missing is paycuts, subpar contract due to paycuts, pbs not honoring seniority, blatant violations of the contract. The attemped firing of a pilot for following the contract and the VP being a bully over crew rest seats. Did the chief pilot go to bat for the pilot or company?

The reason people apply is the same reason that they did back in 1987, it's better than where they are currently at and it has greater potential than others. Under your explanation alligiant would be a great place to work because they get pilots as well and I'm sure most of those crews are fun to work with as with most crews at every airline. When I started at my regional it had all the things you said but it surely wasn't a top 100 company.

I'm not saying that CAL isn't better than alot of other airlines out there, I just don't believe that it is a top 100 company especially after what's happened in the last 6 years. I'm betting that 90% has a lot to do with the fact that the airlines are a seniority based job (pay and quality of life issues) or people would be jumping ship left and right at ALL airlines. It's the old saying apply to every airline and go with the one that hires you first.

Eric,

In the spirit of fairness and balance, CAL has not been named as one of Fortune’s 100 Best Places to work since 2003. In fact, no other legacy has.

With that said, the need for contract improvements at CAL go without saying. But qualifying this airline as a "crappy" employer is an exaggeration. We fly some of the newest equipment to more worldwide destinations than any other carrier; vertical mobility right now is the best in the industry; thirty to sixty days to line holder status for new-hires is unparallel anywhere.

Now, once we get the improvements in pay and quality of life in place, we’ll be at an enviable position.

P

PS: By the way, Eric, do you work for CAL or are your statements based on hearsay?

Eric Stratton
11-28-2007, 08:31 AM
Are you talking about CAL being the top place to work for as a pilot? After what's happened in the past 6 years none of the airlines is a GREAT place to work for. CAL wasn't responsible for 9/11, oil prices, cutbacks, etc. It's trying to stay competitive, and in this cutthroat environment the pilots happened to get whacked exceptionally hard. Why? Because as a group we make more than the rest of the employee groups. It's hard to go after a ramper making $10 an hour and barely getting by, vs a pilot who's making $190 an hour an has to take a 10% paycut. I don't like it anymore than the next guy, but you have to be realistic too. I'm not quite sure what qualifies an airline to make the grade for you...........:confused:

That is exactly my point. How it can be ranked in the top 100 just blows my mind. It may be better than some out their but I don't see it as being the great rosey place to work as you and some others like to make it out to be. The things I stated before should eliminate it from that category. The main thing the CAL has going for it right now is the movement. Your coworkers shouldn't be part of it because in good times or bad they are usually the same fun or unfun people to be around. thats been my experience with people.

I think that if every airline out there took a 20% paycut you and I would still be having the same conversation. You would be saying that CAL is a great place to work for and I would be saying that it's getting worse.

The closest thing to a good airline right now its SWA (by default due to concessions at the others) their lack of variety brings it down, fedex and ups, but they have their draw backs too.

Eric Stratton
11-28-2007, 08:48 AM
Eric,

In the spirit of fairness and balance, CAL has not being named as one of Fortuneís 100 Best Places to work since 2003. In fact, no other legacy has.

With that said, the need for contract improvements at CAL go without saying. But qualifying this airline as a "crappy" employer is an exaggeration. We fly some of the newest equipment to more worldwide destinations than any other carrier; vertical mobility right now is the best in the industry; thirty to sixty days to line holder status for new-hires is unparallel anywhere.

Now, once we get the improvements in pay and quality of life in place, weíll be at an enviable position.

P

PS: By the way, Eric, do you work for CAL or are your statements based on hearsay?

How does a company get named to one of Fortune's top 100 after it just took concessions from every employee and were laying them off. That's my point. I don't think I ever said it was crappy but it definately isn't the rock star that some make it out to be. If movement came to a halt how would it be then?

30-60 days, is that for the 757 newhires as well as the 737 newhires. how long is it at delta? I heard nwa is short as well depending on where you want to be based so I dont think it's unparalleled.

I work somewhere but the important thing is are my statements accurate whether hearsay or from experience.

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 08:52 AM
That is exactly my point. How it can be ranked in the top 100 just blows my mind. It may be better than some out their but I don't see it as being the great rosey place to work as you and some others like to make it out to be. The things I stated before should eliminate it from that category. The main thing the CAL has going for it right now is the movement. Your coworkers shouldn't be part of it because in good times or bad they are usually the same fun or unfun people to be around. thats been my experience with people.

I think that if every airline out there took a 20% paycut you and I would still be having the same conversation. You would be saying that CAL is a great place to work for and I would be saying that it's getting worse.

The closest thing to a good airline right now its SWA (by default due to concessions at the others) their lack of variety brings it down, fedex and ups, but they have their draw backs too.

Eric,
Where do you work? It's hard to tell others if a place is a great place to work if they don't work there. It's all in the eye of the beholder. Personally, I'm happy with my choice of CAL, having turned DAL down back in 98. Do I have any regrets? Nope, not at all, and there are quite a few just like me. SWA is a great airline, but if you have aspirations of flying something other than a 737 your entire career, you're out of luck. UPS and FEDEX are great places too, but you'd better like back of the clock flying since that's the majority of their work. I like our destinations, the variety of aircraft, and our work environment. Sure their are drawbacks everywhere, but right now I see CAL as the best around. JMHO

ewrbasedpilot
11-28-2007, 08:57 AM
How does a company get named to one of Fortune's top 100 after it just took concessions from every employee and were laying them off. That's my point. I don't think I ever said it was crappy but it definately isn't the rock star that some make it out to be. If movement came to a halt how would it be then?

........

Do you think the pilots are the people voting for this award? If so, you're basing your perceptions on one very small piece of the pie and that is wrong. Customers don't care if you're laying off or not, but just because an airline has furloughed/cut pay/benefits, doesn't make them any less a desirable place to work. As I've said before, if you don't work here, it's hard to be judgmental about CAL based on a few posts from an airline forum.

mundo1
11-28-2007, 09:01 AM
Eric,

Lengthy contract negotiations are not unique to CAL nor are rapid contract resolutions during concessions. Perhaps you are confusing affable attitudes with blindness to the obvious. I donít think anyone here is suggesting that CAL is a rosy place to work. Improvements are needed, and thatís why we should set our emotions aside and work in harmony to get the results we want.

I donít know any details about NWA or Deltaís vertical movement. If movement came to a halt at CAL it would most likely be caused by an industrywide slowdown.

Again, I believe everybody recognizes the need for improvements. Nobody argues that point.

P

757Driver
11-28-2007, 10:01 AM
Guys,
Come on, I agree with alot of the things both of you write, but why don't you start pm'ing each other. Or just agree to disagree. We could set up a cage match in the EWR crew room since it looks like an unbooked convention hall. I'll even bring a few urinals from IAH.


Cage match huh?

I'll keep any more comments private between Karl and myself and I do apologize to any of you who were offended.

jdt30
11-28-2007, 10:33 AM
I don't think anyone was offended, I just don't think anyone was going to win this round.;)

gooneybird_71
11-28-2007, 11:01 AM
I started this thread just wanting some info and for some advice. instead it became a huge b---h fest! I have also worked for crappy company in the past once we were one of the top paying regionals heck 89 days of strike dont want to do that again. All i am sayin if u work for a company try to make the best of it. It takes more energy do be a jerk than it does to be nice cant we just all get along. When you guys talk about your company like this you really dont want anyone to work for you guys!
OK i'm off my soapbox carry on.

sydney5316
11-28-2007, 01:23 PM
Guys,
Come on, I agree with alot of the things both of you write, but why don't you start pm'ing each other. Or just agree to disagree. We could set up a cage match in the EWR crew room since it looks like an unbooked convention hall. I'll even bring a few urinals from IAH.


How about a pizza party. :D A group hug might work also.;)

OscartheGrouch
11-28-2007, 02:13 PM
I started this thread just wanting some info and for some advice. instead it became a huge b---h fest! I have also worked for crappy company in the past once we were one of the top paying regionals heck 89 days of strike dont want to do that again. All i am sayin if u work for a company try to make the best of it. It takes more energy do be a jerk than it does to be nice cant we just all get along. When you guys talk about your company like this you really dont want anyone to work for you guys!
OK i'm off my soapbox carry on.

GB,

I agree with you totally! I interject here only as a side to this discussion. EWR and others are seemingly trying to "change" things from the correct direction. Make the workplace better period! The rest will come due to the retirement of those who have not held up their part. I actually am amazed that I said something positive about CAL and then watched as this thread descended into ......... Just and outsider looking in!:)

Good Luck!

Eric Stratton
11-28-2007, 04:13 PM
Eric,

Lengthy contract negotiations are not unique to CAL nor are rapid contract resolutions during concessions. Perhaps you are confusing affable attitudes with blindness to the obvious. I donít think anyone here is suggesting that CAL is a rosy place to work. Improvements are needed, and thatís why we should set our emotions aside and work in harmony to get the results we want.

I donít know any details about NWA or Deltaís vertical movement. If movement came to a halt at CAL it would most likely be caused by an industrywide slowdown.

Again, I believe everybody recognizes the need for improvements. Nobody argues that point.

P

contract negotiations are the same everywhere and I wasn't trying to make reference just to CAL. for that person to ask that question about when the next contract was going to start I made the assumption that they didn't know much about the process. it was just the truth with some sarcasm rolled in.

When you said reserve times were unparallel in the industry I assumed you were comparing it to the other airlines that were hiring.

My take is that ewrbasedpilot paints it as a rosey place. I think he used the word great. I don't think the need for improvements was the basis of this discussion.

Eric Stratton
11-28-2007, 04:38 PM
Do you think the pilots are the people voting for this award? If so, you're basing your perceptions on one very small piece of the pie and that is wrong. Customers don't care if you're laying off or not, but just because an airline has furloughed/cut pay/benefits, doesn't make them any less a desirable place to work. As I've said before, if you don't work here, it's hard to be judgmental about CAL based on a few posts from an airline forum.

If Fortunes top 100 places to work is based on what the customers think then I don't know what to think anymore.

If you don't think that furloughs, pay/benefit cuts and quality of life issues make up how good a company is than to me that's just mind boggling. It's definately not the whole thing but it's should be a big part. oh well then tomato, potato......

I've never said that I don't work their or that I do, but I will say this, what I've written about is definately not from just a few posts from an airline forum.

Eric Stratton
11-28-2007, 04:39 PM
How about a pizza party. :D A group hug might work also.;)

I will definately need to see a photos before agreeing to that...:D

CALPilotToo
11-28-2007, 06:25 PM
I started this thread just wanting some info and for some advice. instead it became a huge b---h fest! I have also worked for crappy company in the past once we were one of the top paying regionals heck 89 days of strike dont want to do that again. All i am sayin if u work for a company try to make the best of it. It takes more energy do be a jerk than it does to be nice cant we just all get along. When you guys talk about your company like this you really dont want anyone to work for you guys!
OK i'm off my soapbox carry on.


Nice and friendly to all has only led to appathy and POS 02 type contracts. No one is held to a standard of protecting the profession or it's related turf. Next time I see a SCAB I'll go over and give him a big ol kiss and a warm "thanks for saving the profession" hug.

Is that better.

As for no one wanting to work here well that is their decision. CAL is a good place to be but don't come here hoping for it to be a career job. Too many have been really nice to management over the years. You know dignity and respect, partnership accord and things like that. Heck CAL is great if you are senior management. Even the real nice kool aide drinkers bought Gordon a new Harley in 1996. Like he couldn't afford it himself. He stole from them first then they gave him the keys next time around. Idiots.

757Driver
11-28-2007, 07:38 PM
Nice and friendly to all has only led to appathy and POS 02 type contracts. No one is held to a standard of protecting the profession or it's related turf. Next time I see a SCAB I'll go over and give him a big ol kiss and a warm "thanks for saving the profession" hug.

Is that better.

As for no one wanting to work here well that is their decision. CAL is a good place to be but don't come here hoping for it to be a career job. Too many have been really nice to management over the years. You know dignity and respect, partnership accord and things like that. Heck CAL is great if you are senior management. Even the real nice kool aide drinkers bought Gordon a new Harley in 1996. Like he couldn't afford it himself. He stole from them first then they gave him the keys next time around. Idiots.

Ah, someone after my own heart.

Nice post CPT

WarEagle28
11-29-2007, 05:19 AM
Does anyone have any information on the last new-hire aircraft/base assignments or the upcoming 11 Dec 07 class? Thanks in advance!

WarEagle28

Cpt. Bat
11-29-2007, 06:01 AM
Last i heard, it was all EWR 737.

Bat

WarEagle28
11-29-2007, 06:04 AM
Last i heard, it was all EWR 737.

Bat


Thanks for the quick response!

rusty737
12-03-2007, 12:56 PM
I started this thread just wanting some info and for some advice. instead it became a huge b---h fest! I have also worked for crappy company in the past once we were one of the top paying regionals heck 89 days of strike dont want to do that again. All i am sayin if u work for a company try to make the best of it. It takes more energy do be a jerk than it does to be nice cant we just all get along. When you guys talk about your company like this you really dont want anyone to work for you guys!
OK i'm off my soapbox carry on.

************************************************** *******
************************************************** *******
Gooneybird,

I assure you that not everyone here at CAL is bitter and/or a jerk. The majority of people I fly with are pleasant and fun to be around. Most of the miserable and disgruntled pilots I have flown with here at CAL were scabs or people whose entire lives are screwed up. The problem with bitter and disgruntled people like 757driver is that he discourages top rate people from applying and getting hired here; we then get stuck with less quality applicants.

I, along with 1400+ new hires were not here for the 02 contract, but we will be for the "08". I do not think that this new hire group will let management steamroll us this time like the 20+ year disgruntled pilots let them do last contract. My main concern for the next contract are the pilots that have been here, let's say 20+ years.

flybynuts
12-03-2007, 01:35 PM
WAR EAGLE 28,

The Dec 18 class is suppose to go all EWR as well. However, some are offered IAH before they finish training. It won't mean that you start IAH immediately but it will take a few months. Most do about 1-2 months EWR and then they are at IAH. The system bid in Jan will get you to IAH by about April if that is what you are wanting.


Also, Rusty 737 is completely right. CAL has been and is still changing for the better and it is a good place to work. Based on current conditions and future proposals, things only look brighter here.

War Eagle!

757Driver
12-03-2007, 01:49 PM
************************************************** *******
************************************************** *******
Gooneybird,

I assure you that not everyone here at CAL is bitter and/or a jerk. The majority of people I fly with are pleasant and fun to be around. Most of the miserable and disgruntled pilots I have flown with here at CAL were scabs or people whose entire lives are screwed up. The problem with bitter and disgruntled people like 757driver is that he discourages top rate people from applying and getting hired here; we then get stuck with less quality applicants.

I, along with 1400+ new hires were not here for the 02 contract, but we will be for the "08". I do not think that this new hire group will let management steamroll us this time like the 20+ year disgruntled pilots let them do last contract. My main concern for the next contract are the pilots that have been here, let's say 20+ years.

Yes Rusty,

The contract passed because of us 20 plusers. A great many of the yes votes came from the bottom feeders who were terrified of a non-existent furlough.

The only "less quality" applicants I'm worried about are the type who welcome every pay-cut that management proposes and then asks for more.

Perhaps a close look in the mirror is due and you'll see one of those "less qualified" types staring right back at you.

PilotFrog
12-03-2007, 04:20 PM
I've been waiting for a call from Continental for ages. Friend said I got on the short stack after talking to his Chief pilot finally, but it has been a month an a half, are they still interviewing?

ewrbasedpilot
12-03-2007, 09:17 PM
Yes Rusty,

The contract passed because of us 20 plusers. A great many of the yes votes came from the bottom feeders who were terrified of a non-existent furlough.

..................

But you see, this is where you might have been wrong. I was in the last 50 who were told we'd never leave CAL property only to be given a "see you later" letter a few days later. Don't know how many CAL pilots who "positively knew 1000% we'd never get furloughed", and turned out to be wrong as we were shown the door. THAT is why I don't trust many of the pilots who seem to say we were wrong for voting yes. It's easy to say when you have 1000 pilots below you, but until you've been there, it's totally different. JMHO...........no flame war....;) Four furloughs in 17 years is enough for me.

757Driver
12-04-2007, 06:13 AM
But you see, this is where you might have been wrong. I was in the last 50 who were told we'd never leave CAL property only to be given a "see you later" letter a few days later. Don't know how many CAL pilots who "positively knew 1000% we'd never get furloughed", and turned out to be wrong as we were shown the door. THAT is why I don't trust many of the pilots who seem to say we were wrong for voting yes. It's easy to say when you have 1000 pilots below you, but until you've been there, it's totally different. JMHO...........no flame war....;) Four furloughs in 17 years is enough for me.

Karl,

That bait was dangled in front of me many times before you came on the property. In one case it was true and they did indeed furlough. I was just reminding rusty that it wasn't only us "20 plus" guys who voted yes. I think I've made it abundantly clear that I didn't and most of the guys at my seniority lost the more on our retirement than anybody else did.

rusty737
12-04-2007, 05:21 PM
Yes Rusty,

The contract passed because of us 20 plusers. A great many of the yes votes came from the bottom feeders who were terrified of a non-existent furlough.

The only "less quality" applicants I'm worried about are the type who welcome every pay-cut that management proposes and then asks for more.

Perhaps a close look in the mirror is due and you'll see one of those "less qualified" types staring right back at you.


757driver,

Why do you always end your discussion with a personal attack? It's like I am dealing with a teenager.

757Driver
12-04-2007, 05:30 PM
757driver,

Why do you always end your discussion with a personal attack? It's like I am dealing with a teenager.

Check your PM's Grandpa.

rusty737
12-04-2007, 05:55 PM
Check your PM's Grandpa.

Just did, check yours!:eek:

paladin
12-05-2007, 05:38 AM
I know there are no absolutes in life
Are you absolutely sure about that 75?

JoeyMeatballs
12-05-2007, 07:06 AM
I swear reading any post about CAL and you guys are always fighting, must be a fun place to work :p

paladin
12-05-2007, 08:33 AM
I swear reading any post about CAL and you guys are always fighting, must be a fun place to work :p


It really is SAAB you should come here.

757Driver
12-05-2007, 08:45 AM
I swear reading any post about CAL and you guys are always fighting, must be a fun place to work :p


Its really not a bad place to work if you exclude the way management treats us. I enjoy showing up for work and I do keep my personal feelings on the contract to myself. I have a great time on the layovers and keep the cockpit atmosphere pleasant.

Paladin is a super scab and proud of it, (just ask him). I disagree with what he did and he's proud of crossing the picket line, so be it.

HaveTacitBlue
12-05-2007, 10:38 AM
Having waded through this slugfest of a thread, I was thinking I'd like to ask a question, naive though it may be.

I am someone who didn't know what they wanted to be when they grew up and so spent the last 25+ years in the computer industry. I finally figured it out and expect to join the brotherhood (pilothood?) in the not-to-distant future. I am willingly walking away from what (I think) a 15-year UPS CA earns with minimum time (not really sure about the whole 75 hours per month guarantee thing). I promise everyone here - I want to fly for food.

I see the things about which you guys are concerned, the things you laugh about, the things you go to war over. I know there are folks here who feel the same way I do about flying. Conversely, I see and hear about people who fly solely because it's the only thing they know how to do - but hate it and presumably can't/won't give it up due to the golden handcuffs which chain them to the yoke. Clearly life is full of choices and theirs have led them down a path off of which they can't depart (perhaps) because of familial responsibilities. There are obviously many factors in life, the sum of which each of us are.

I realize I can't know what life on the line is like until I've flown a mile in your shoes. I believe I am clear on the concept that the glory days of the professional pilot have long since past, in part because of deregulation, in part because nothing stays shiny forever. However, I truly believe that I will be happy in a seat up front - ideally if, in several years hence, I have the opportunity to fly for hours upon hours on end to distant lands so I can be abused by the customs folk there (remember the AA CA a few years back at GRU?).

Now, here's the rub - if I am myself intrinsically happy to be a pilot for the remaining years of my 121.383 life, am I going to offend my fellow pilots if I am merely happy to be in the game?

I am not blind to the goings on about me as to become inured to managerial shenanigans as is shamefully the case at the majority of airlines (at what corporation is that not a problem?). I can only guess at what you guys have to go through on a daily basis, what contractual hoops are in place through which you must jump on top of the myriad of laws, rules and thou-shalt-nots that are there to keep us safe. I salute your diligence and your innate professionalism that carries the day. Meanwhile, my biggest on-the-job concern is whether there is bathroom tissue in my favorite stall...

As I said, I've read this (and many other threads) in which one party explains their position, another takes exception, the stakes are raised by repeated rounds of he-said, he-said (or she - most avatars are gender indifferent), followed by additional parties weighing in with their opinions or even *factual* corrections. Many people, many viewpoints, no harmonious balance to be found. While one might ask, "does anyone ever actually agree to disagree?", I didn't intend at the start of this to wonder out loud if 70,000 people can't all just get along - even if I weren't *way* past thinking that's possible.

I like to think I'm pretty easy to get along with and hope that will shine through at various future interviews. Does everyone start out like this only to have it beaten out of them by disillusionment and management betrayal (is it really betrayal if you signed the contract?)?

It was not my intention to hijack the thread and I hope my questions are enough on topic to be valid within the established framework.

JoeyMeatballs
12-05-2007, 10:41 AM
It really is SAAB you should come here.

Im trying, just have to upgrade, get my 1,000Turbine pic and make a lot of connections on the way ;)

Im getting tired of updating my AirlineApps after every trip I do, and not get a call:p

A320fumes
12-05-2007, 06:24 PM
Having waded through this slugfest of a thread, I was thinking I'd like to ask a question, naive though it may be.

I am someone ......................(remember the AA CA a few years back at GRU?).



I think the AA CA got what he deserved. Typical American, country not airline, arrogance.

When I read your well-written and delivered post, I reminisce over how I felt 2 airlines and 3 activations ago. Knowing what I know and experiencing what I've experienced, I'd gladly trade places with you and buy my own airplane. On the other hand, not pursuing your dreams based upon an other's experiences is totally unacceptable. I wish you the best in whatever your future endeavors might hold. To answer your question; as a CAL pilot, the last thing I'd like to see is another selfish, just happy to be a pilot guy on the property. On the other hand, another accomplished aviator with outside skill that enable him to say k"NO"! to a t/a would be a great addition. Because of where I work, I'm looking forward to some solidarity and making CAL pay for the product they receive from us. This is a blue-collar profession that has been raped, as most skilled labor has, for the past 6 years. I suggest you read "Flying the line", "Hard landings" and if CAL is in your cross hairs, "Collision with Collusion". The job is not "just about sitting in a chair and pressing buttons"--Lou Gossett, "Officer & Gentleman". Also, "My Grandmamma wants to fly jets". Good luck in whatever you choose.

rusty737
12-05-2007, 09:47 PM
Its really not a bad place to work if you exclude the way management treats us. I enjoy showing up for work and I do keep my personal feelings on the contract to myself. I have a great time on the layovers and keep the cockpit atmosphere pleasant.

Paladin is a super scab and proud of it, (just ask him). I disagree with what he did and he's proud of crossing the picket line, so be it.

WOW,

Now it is not a bad place to work, I guess it has gotten better in the past few days. Wishy Washy at best! :rolleyes:

Eric Stratton
12-06-2007, 06:34 AM
I think the AA CA got what he deserved. Typical American, country not airline, arrogance.

When I read your well-written and delivered post, I reminisce over how I felt 2 airlines and 3 activations ago. Knowing what I know and experiencing what I've experienced, I'd gladly trade places with you and buy my own airplane. On the other hand, not pursuing your dreams based upon an other's experiences is totally unacceptable. I wish you the best in whatever your future endeavors might hold. To answer your question; as a CAL pilot, the last thing I'd like to see is another selfish, just happy to be a pilot guy on the property. On the other hand, another accomplished aviator with outside skill that enable him to say k"NO"! to a t/a would be a great addition. Because of where I work, I'm looking forward to some solidarity and making CAL pay for the product they receive from us. This is a blue-collar profession that has been raped, as most skilled labor has, for the past 6 years. I suggest you read "Flying the line", "Hard landings" and if CAL is in your cross hairs, "Collision with Collusion". The job is not "just about sitting in a chair and pressing buttons"--Lou Gossett, "Officer & Gentleman". Also, "My Grandmamma wants to fly jets". Good luck in whatever you choose.

I know alot of those guys who vote yes because they have outside jobs that support low wages. I hate hearing pilots ask what we do to subsidize low pay. Why should there even be a need for a second job?

HaveTacitBlue
12-11-2007, 10:24 AM
I think the AA CA got what he deserved. Typical American, country not airline, arrogance.


Thank you, sir, for taking the time to respond.

I respectfully disagree with your assessment of what happened to the AA CA, mainly due to the circumstances surrounding the situation. I was in country at the time this occurred and had walked the same, albeit not the crew, path. You might recall that Brasil had just imposed the fingerprinting and photographing of *Americans Only* as a response to the American implementation of same for *all* nationalities. I do not know if any other countries had done anything similar in response, but it seemed that while the US indeed had 2600+ reasons for becoming more suspicious of people showing up at her borders, it felt completely arbitrary and capricious for Brasilia to turn around and look upon us in the same light. Now, I can't speak for what actually transpired in the line that day, perhaps he was more aggressive in vocalizing his opinion of the new procedure, but the picture seemed fairly innocuous and didn't warrant his detention and expulsion. (Probably more naivetť on my part!)

...I'd gladly trade places with you and buy my own airplane.

Yeah, I've been told this since about '96 or so, but the allure of the sky doesn't diminish merely by going up in standard issue Cessnas, Pipers, and Beechcraft. I guess until I have been soundly abused for doing what I love will I start to listen to my elders...


To answer your question; as a CAL pilot, the last thing I'd like to see is another selfish, just happy to be a pilot guy on the property. On the other hand, another accomplished aviator with outside skill that enable him to say k"NO"! to a t/a would be a great addition. Because of where I work, I'm looking forward to some solidarity and making CAL pay for the product they receive from us. This is a blue-collar profession that has been raped, as most skilled labor has, for the past 6 years. I suggest you read "Flying the line", "Hard landings" and if CAL is in your cross hairs, "Collision with Collusion". The job is not "just about sitting in a chair and pressing buttons"--Lou Gossett, "Officer & Gentleman". Also, "My Grandmamma wants to fly jets". Good luck in whatever you choose.

I was trying to strike a balance here to indicate that flying is a passion and would not be merely a job, a way to put scraps on the plate and cardboard over my head ;). While it is true I do have skills outside the, uh, flightdeck, I have no intention of holding down outside employment or otherwise giving anything less than 110% to my future employers. On the other hand, if, through some freakish turn of events, I am asked to provide computer assistance to one of my future employers because they do not employ such people (that's how I got to play Checklist Monkey on a BE90 for a few months), I'll certainly lend a hand.

I do have to thank you for bringing a concept to mind that I had not previously internalized - that idea that even a highly skilled aviator is technically a blue collar worker. I've certainly exited many an aircraft soaked with sweat either due to the Florida weather or the self-imposed stress during my commercial checkride, but it never occurred to me to think to associate professional aviation with someone paid for the expenditure of their physical labor. Regardless, the point is not lost and I see the truth of it.

To that end, I am reminded of a 135 flight in which I was the aforementioned Checklist Monkey and as such was afforded the job of schlepping the customers' luggage into the King Air. Having previously seen how my captain would comport himself and interact with other customers, I did my best impression of him and went up to the guy who was standing next to his Land Rover and introduced myself and proffered a handshake rather than simply rounding up the gear and make like a ramper. He looked at me as if I was something he'd just stepped in and gave me a reluctant greeting. Later, his kids proceeded to crumb up the cabin and spill at least one can of soda during the hour long flight down to TMB - neither parent provided any guidance or otherwise found anything wrong with their behavior. I learned a thing or two on that flight about humanity or at least the ones with whom I could possibly interact if I went the PAX route. To be fair, I've also had the opportunity to fly others who could probably buy and sell that guy without a moment's hesitation who were just as humble and down to earth as one could ever expect to meet. In any case, it was a world expanding moment for me (that probably sounds bad, so please don't get the wrong idea about my background - I'm just another guy with his own set of experiences, nothing special, just different) and I was left to decide whether I was willing to pay the price of admission.

A roundabout way to say that I been exposed to the concept of the blue collar aviator, but I hadn't yet framed it properly in my mind. Too, there are people out in this industry who clearly don't hold the same values as I/we do. I ran across the posting about a PHL station manager whose vehicle was set ablaze because he ran afoul of ramp workers when he accosted them regarding their work habits. *:eek:* Perhaps there were mitigating circumstances in that situation as well...

I believe I pointed out that I am pursuing this avocation with open eyes and awareness that, as a younger man, I might not have stopped to consider. I'd like to add that traveling for its own sake sits well with me ("The point of a journey is not to arrive." - Neil Peart, "Prime Mover") and that being in one locale for too long is, while not clinically distressing, just not a goal of mine. Furthermore, I am no longer in the game of collecting things - toys, cars, wives, et cetera, and while having a bank account full of discretionary disposable income is nice to have and buys beaucoup flight time, about the only thing I really need to concern myself with is being able to buy something to eat other than Alpo (the cats always growl if I pass too near their food bowl) when retirement really digs its teeth in. Do they have 70-year-old line guys?

Also, thanks for the reading suggestions. I think I have one of those sitting around here someplace - I'll add the others to the list. I have mostly put off reading anything that doesn't get me where I want to go until after I've collected all the certificates and ratings I need to have to get there.

One last point I'll make is that each one of us gives of ourselves as we see fit and invest our energies in that which we deem important. It follows that we are all invested heavily in being the best aviators we can be. It turns out that there impediments to our wholesale enjoyment of this profession which require us to watch each other's back not unlike brothers in arms. While we are not in a literal foxhole, I believe the analogy is fitting.

LifeNtheFstLne
12-16-2007, 06:33 PM
I could post in the Age 65 forum like everyone else - but this if for my peers at CAL, and what's done is now done. Fellow CAL guys: I saw last week continued interviewing taking place at the training center. This of course is coupled with nearly a weekly display of the fire trucks hosing someone down over at the field. Anyone have the slightest idea how concerned myself and my fellow pilots with '07 hire dates should be? I've asked every respectable older gentleman I've bumped into the last couple months and every single one has said they'd keep on trucking past 60 if the law changed. Did local CAL ALPA ever do any survey on this one? I can handle stagnant movement, but furlough...:eek:

flybynuts
12-16-2007, 07:31 PM
I have only asked about 10 CA's this week at CAL and they all do not want to work past 60 and are trying to figure out how they can still make 60 happen. Remember, most of these guys didn't lose pensions like United and DAL. They don't feel like they have to "catch up." Just food for thought. Only time will really tell how this whole thing will pan out, espcially when the details get worked out.

Riddler
12-17-2007, 04:44 AM
According to this site's airline profiles page, CAL has reduced its hiring rate from 16 per week to 8 per week. Some hiring is a lot better than no hiring!

flybynuts
12-17-2007, 05:30 AM
Actually, according to Christy N., last week they went to 12 a week. Should still be firm for quite some time and then may go back to 16. However, if PBS gets shot in the head, they will have to go up to more per week. Before the oil price upshot, they were going to go to 18 a week in April. Of course, this can all and will change every month it seems.

beeker
12-18-2007, 12:44 PM
I was just told, haven't interviewed yet, that if successful I would be placed in a pool and that class dates will not be given out. I wasn't the only one to get that call.

flybynuts
12-18-2007, 01:58 PM
The pool is suppose to cover the planned 16 to the lower class of 12 or 8 and then they will resume the class dates based on the new "correction." As of a few weeks ago, there were no bodies in any pool here at CAL. So, I think that any pool type will be small and short to cover for this hiring adjustment. Just told last night that they are going to classes of 12.

Ottopilot
12-18-2007, 02:18 PM
The company is trying to sort everything out. They don't know if a guy is going to retire at 60 or 65, so they are asking them. Once they figure out staffing, then they will act. I hear guys that want to stay and some say they are going at 60? Who really knows? There is (was) about 1200 pilots to retire in the next 5 years. Now how many? Will next month's bid be a shocker? I hear we may have 4 more 777's coming?

Free Flyer
12-18-2007, 06:57 PM
I just flew with a very senior 737 captain in EWR and he pulled his retirement flight for next week. He asked the chief pilots office how many other retirees were going to leave. The CPO said that everyone who was supposed to retire from now until February 2008 all said that they were going to stay. So, plan on not moving as fast as we thought.

I went from a 737 captain slot on the next bid to staying as a 737 FO. If you do the math that's a $50,000 pay cut per year for the next 5 years until I can upgrade. Yeah, thanks old guys for not planning financially better, now you've put me in the same boat. I guess with all of my days off each month (averaging 20) I can get a second degree or job.

ewrbasedpilot
12-19-2007, 06:24 AM
CAL is still one of the few airlines left to have the "lump sum option" available to its pilots . You wanna see some guys bail quickly? If they get rid of that, they'll head for the door quicker than you can say "whaddya mean age discrimination? It's all about MONEY!!" Sad thing is, is that if the company does pull that option (and it'll happen quickly if they do it to protect themselves), these guys will REALLY have something to complain and stick around for. I for one won't be having a pity party for them. I'm still trying to figure how the government decided it's only age discrimnation for ONE pilot in the pit, and not both. I'm guessing we'll get incredible medical insurance and a great retirment just like our European friends do..............oh wait, that's not part of the age discrimination area we're interested in being a part of! What a joke. :rolleyes:

bigoober
12-19-2007, 08:19 AM
Classes down for next year, again. Probably stop classes in April now.

JoeyMeatballs
12-19-2007, 09:02 AM
The company is trying to sort everything out. They don't know if a guy is going to retire at 60 or 65, so they are asking them. Once they figure out staffing, then they will act. I hear guys that want to stay and some say they are going at 60? Who really knows? There is (was) about 1200 pilots to retire in the next 5 years. Now how many? Will next month's bid be a shocker? I hear we may have 4 more 777's coming?

Otto has it right, I think the airlines really know what to expect. I think most everybody will stay past 60, but that doesn't mean they will stay till 65. I think 6 months to a year from now whatever the rate of guys leaving is, is probably what we can expect until 2013, then I would presume we will see more retirements. I think this is just the beginning, my sis is an employment lawyer, dealing with discrimination, and she says they are going to have a "field day" with this and the lawsuits will keep on coming. I dunno I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Ottopilot
12-19-2007, 10:57 AM
I went from a 737 captain slot on the next bid to staying as a 737 FO.

On the next bid. So you almost held it? That sucks. I just made the left seat, so hopefully I can keep it. I will unless they do a flush bid or reduction bid. 60+ 737's coming in the next two years, so I think I'll just stay junior on it.?

LifeNtheFstLne
12-26-2007, 05:54 PM
Crashpad update??

What's the current 'nice' place to kick back in EWR? Please only provide an opinion if you yourself have stayed there. Thanks.

LifeNtheFstLne
12-28-2007, 09:10 PM
Don't all answer at once now...

flybynuts
12-29-2007, 08:25 AM
Most guys go to the Blocked Inn around EWR in Elizabeth. Kinda like a big frat house for about 245/mos. I actually stay at a Hotel crashpad with 9 others and it is more my style plus a little cheaper. Got lucky and met the right person at the right time. Some go in together and get the cheap rates at a hotel there and try and have the same days on to split the hotel costs. There is another place called Elizabeth crew pad that has females on one floor and males on the other for 300/mo. Real nice on the inside but in the same location as the blocked inn. You can walk around during the day but the night is very questionable. There are more places posted in EWR at the crew lounge but these are the ones I know.

I can try and look for you when I go up there tomorrow.