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View Full Version : Airline Rankings--Your Thoughts


Rodger
12-02-2007, 04:01 PM
With airlines starting to hire again, some people may be in the position of actually having a choice of who their employer will be (I've already started seeing the enviable "Should I go with Delta or Continental" posts). With that in mind, my very unscientific (with most information coming directly from this forum) ranking of who the best airlines to work for are:

1. Southwest
2. Continental
3. Delta
4. Jet Blue
5. Northwest
6. United
7. US Airways

I would like to hear what people who have actually worked for these companies think. How would you persuade your best friend to come work for the same airline you fly for and enjoy flying for? How would you dissuade your best friend to stay as far away from the airline you hate working for?

I would enjoy a civilized discussion with the pros/cons of your airline. Pile on my ranking if you disagree with the positions.


seaav8tor
12-02-2007, 04:10 PM
Based on long term paycheck stability:

1. FedEX
2. UPS
3. vacant
4. vacant
5. vacant
6. vacant
7. vacant
8. vacant
9. vacant
10. ...............................................

RockBottom
12-02-2007, 04:12 PM
He's comparing major passenger carriers, seaav8tor.


Albief15
12-02-2007, 04:27 PM
When you factor in 4-5 years overseas in CDG or HKG getting only another 2700 a month, plus the associated headaches being an expat, plus being junior for a while when you finally return to the states, I would say FDX is not in the mix unless you are wanting that kind of life. So--stabilty chasers--I'd put UPS first. However, for those who love less circadian disruption, enjoy the legacy airline life, or want to live in a domicle city.....it may no longer be that UPS and FDX are at the top of EVERYONE'S list. Tops for some--but CAL will probably be tops for a guy wanted to upgrade quickly, and DAL for guy who wants travel passes for momma and wants to live in ATL or SLC. It will always be a very realtive discussion....

Tomct
12-02-2007, 05:47 PM
I am a new hire at JBLU and LOVING IT! The leaders of this company are VERY IMPRESSIVE! I know that a lot of people want to work for the Legacy Carriers, but with merger's on the horizon....could be very scary. If that were the case, I have a lot of friends that would be furloughed...NOT GOOD for them. I truly believe in our mgmnt group and like the direction that we are going. Time will tell, but all I can say is Good Luck everyone! We are going to need it! ;P

Murano
12-02-2007, 06:09 PM
I am a new hire at JBLU and LOVING IT! The leaders of this company are VERY IMPRESSIVE! I know that a lot of people want to work for the Legacy Carriers, but with merger's on the horizon....could be very scary. If that were the case, I have a lot of friends that would be furloughed...NOT GOOD for them. I truly believe in our mgmnt group and like the direction that we are going. Time will tell, but all I can say is Good Luck everyone! We are going to need it! ;P

I can't tell whether this guy is sarcastic or not... anyone?

JoeyMeatballs
12-02-2007, 06:25 PM
I can't tell whether this guy is sarcastic or not... anyone?

thats funny, I thought the guy who started this thread was being sarcastic.

HPilot
12-02-2007, 06:43 PM
With airlines starting to hire again, some people may be in the position of actually having a choice of who their employer will be (I've already started seeing the enviable "Should I go with Delta or Continental" posts). With that in mind, my very unscientific (with most information coming directly from this forum) ranking of who the best airlines to work for are:

1. Southwest
2. Continental
3. Delta
4. Jet Blue
5. Northwest
6. United
7. US Airways

I would like to hear what people who have actually worked for these companies think. How would you persuade your best friend to come work for the same airline you fly for and enjoy flying for? How would you dissuade your best friend to stay as far away from the airline you hate working for?

I would enjoy a civilized discussion with the pros/cons of your airline. Pile on my ranking if you disagree with the positions.

I'm not saying that we don't have our problems, but Jetblue? There are guys leaving there to take the recall back to US Airways. If I were to arrange those carriers it would be.

1. Southwest
2. Continental
3. Delta
4. Northwest
5. United
6. US Airways
7. JetBlue

JoeyMeatballs
12-02-2007, 06:51 PM
I'm not saying that we don't have our problems, but Jetblue? There are guys leaving there to take the recall back to US Airways. If I were to arrange those carriers it would be.

1. Southwest
2. Continental
3. Delta
4. Northwest
5. United
6. US Airways
7. JetBlue

who in a million years pre-9/11 would ever put SWA/CAL top 2, boy have times changed......................

thomas39
12-02-2007, 06:59 PM
"who in a million years pre-9/11 would ever put SWA/CAL top 2, boy have times changed..................."

Very good point to think about. Look how much has changed since 2001. Makes ya thing about what changes are still in store for our feeble industry.

iahflyr
12-02-2007, 07:15 PM
1. Southwest
2. Continental
3. Delta
4. American
5. United
6. Northwest
7. US Air
8. Alaska
9. Air Tran
10. Frontier

Jetblue would probably wind up #13 or so on this list.

threegreen
12-02-2007, 07:32 PM
American should not be on the list since they wont hire for couple years (if they were hiring they should be #1)
Also B6 should be in the top 10 (maybe ahead of f9).

Justin Case
12-02-2007, 09:10 PM
I am a new hire at JBLU and LOVING IT! The leaders of this company are VERY IMPRESSIVE! I know that a lot of people want to work for the Legacy Carriers, but with merger's on the horizon....could be very scary. If that were the case, I have a lot of friends that would be furloughed...NOT GOOD for them. I truly believe in our mgmnt group and like the direction that we are going. Time will tell, but all I can say is Good Luck everyone! We are going to need it! ;P
I thought the same things when I was hired at Alaska. Times sure have changed.

FliFast
12-02-2007, 09:13 PM
Why would American be #1 ???

I worked for them for two 1/2 years and am currently furloughed from there. There is, in my humblest of opinions, an undertow of mistrust between the employees and the top level executives with specificity to their bonuses and the lack of sharing these rewards with the rank and file.

American Airlines and the APA are currently in contract talks. I have never worked at an airline that had contract talks that did not involve labor chaos and management brinksmanship. And yes, I hope the APA is successful at nego.-ed an industry-leading contract.

Finally, as a former TWA pilot, there are issues between the returning TWA furloughees and the current union on the property, the APA. Without turning this into a mudslinging event, I think it is a fair statement that there is some bitterness among the TWA furloughees (as many as 1890 of them) as they return to service at American. Point being, I can't see how this could be the #1 place to work, versus SWA, CAL, DAL, etc.

I'm not trying to pick AA fight, just trying to provide opinions/fAActs as to why AA might not be in the #1 spot.

My two cents worth...your conversation table may have something different.

Second, pre-9/11, SWA was a good gig and under the leadership of Bethune, CAL was an improving airline (mid 90's era).

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
12-02-2007, 09:16 PM
Based on long term paycheck stability:

1. FedEX
2. UPS
3. vacant
4. vacant
5. vacant
6. vacant
7. vacant
8. vacant
9. vacant
10. ...............................................

Looks like Albie beat me to it...

I'd like to revise it a tad...
1. UPS
2. FedEx
3. Vacant
4. Delta/Continental/SWA
5. United/NWA
6. AirTran
7. Jetblue
...

Of course I'm biased here ;)


C'mon folks do you really mean that FedEx and UPS wouldn't even rank among the top 10 airlines? Unless you just wanted to compare pax airlines only...

Then...
1. Vacant
2. Vacant
3. Vacant
4. Delta/Continental/SWA
5. United/NWA
6. AirTran
7. Jetblue
...

767pilot
12-02-2007, 09:31 PM
but with merger's on the horizon....could be very scary. If that were the case, I have a lot of friends that would be furloughed...

Why would there automatically be furloughs? You drinking blue kool aid?

HPilot
12-02-2007, 09:35 PM
airline:
Pronunciation: \-ˌlīn\
Function: noun
Date: 1901
: an air transportation system including its equipment, routes, operating personnel, and management

Seems to me FedEx and UPS are a form of air transportation. FedEx and UPS would be at the top then. Don't understand why you have JetBlue in there though.

SaltyDog
12-02-2007, 10:01 PM
who in a million years pre-9/11 would ever put SWA/CAL top 2, boy have times changed......................

I did Saab, (1990's). Why? Longevity potential.
Southwest. Always made money with great people all around in all jobs.
Continental. After the bankruptcies, Bethune did a great job with Boeing get the aircraft fleets streamlined and new. Strong international presence (profits)
Many looked at airlines like a business (who is running a sustainable business model) Southwest and Continental actually did have prior to 9-11.
My top two were either Fedex or UPS. 3 and 4 were Southwest and Continental. I ended up with a seniority flow through # at CO and a freight dog job. Today, I still stick with the same rankings. The rest of the legacies are more difficult to discern management business long term strategy in a merger atmosphere. But from a pilot point of view, the cockpit folks are great at all of them based on having buds in every cockpit across the industry.

JoeyMeatballs
12-03-2007, 04:26 AM
I did Saab, (1990's). Why? Longevity potential.
Southwest. Always made money with great people all around in all jobs.
Continental. After the bankruptcies, Bethune did a great job with Boeing get the aircraft fleets streamlined and new. Strong international presence (profits)
Many looked at airlines like a business (who is running a sustainable business model) Southwest and Continental actually did have prior to 9-11.
My top two were either Fedex or UPS. 3 and 4 were Southwest and Continental. I ended up with a seniority flow through # at CO and a freight dog job. Today, I still stick with the same rankings. The rest of the legacies are more difficult to discern management business long term strategy in a merger atmosphere. But from a pilot point of view, the cockpit folks are great at all of them based on having buds in every cockpit across the industry.

I agree, but when I was growing up, it was always Delta/United..............never CAL or SWA, not saying they weren't good places to be, but they weren't on most peoples top airlines to be at. I read Bethune s "worst to first", great book, Larry is no Bethune, not by any stretch.........

crewdawg52
12-03-2007, 04:57 AM
It really depends on what someone wants to do. If you want to stay domestic, then SW, AT, Fronier, JB, or Alaska may be the place for someone. Me, I wanted to go international (Europe and Asia), so those airlines were not a player.

A320fumes
12-03-2007, 06:02 AM
who in a million years pre-9/11 would ever put SWA/CAL top 2, boy have times changed......................

If you're under 55yrs old, they'll change again. Don't bet on the flavor of the month.

smiley
12-03-2007, 08:53 AM
If you're under 55yrs old, they'll change again. Don't bet on the flavor of the month.


So what's your (or anyones) prediction? Will the majors flop around and who ends up on top? Will SW/Cont/Delta fall? What airlines will rise to the top for those of us under 55 with the possibility of having multiple airlines to choose from?

I think that's what this post is really all about - trying to pull out the crystal ball and work some magic. Which airlines will still be around in 20/30/40 years w/out furloughs and bad mergers?

I haven't been in the industry long enough to make even close to an educated guess, but appreciate all the input from those with more experience!

Clue32
12-03-2007, 09:48 AM
So what's your (or anyones) prediction? Will the majors flop around and who ends up on top? Will SW/Cont/Delta fall? What airlines will rise to the top for those of us under 55 with the possibility of having multiple airlines to choose from?

I think that's what this post is really all about - trying to pull out the crystal ball and work some magic. Which airlines will still be around in 20/30/40 years w/out furloughs and bad mergers?

I haven't been in the industry long enough to make even close to an educated guess, but appreciate all the input from those with more experience!

In 2020 the top airlines will be.

1. UPS
2. FedEx
3. Contindelta
4. United
5. Air TrAlaska
6. VirgBlutier
7. Mesa
8. Southwest
9. Northwest
10. US Airways

UnlimitedAkro
12-03-2007, 10:27 AM
1. Vacant
2. Vacant
3. Air Florida
4. Vacant
5. Mesa?
6. Vacant
7. Eastern
8. Value Jet
9. Vacant
10. New York Cab Assn'

stinsonjr
12-03-2007, 10:38 AM
Wish Gman still posted here...he would set all of you straight because JetBlue OWNS the future. The next closest is a distant second.

7576FO
12-03-2007, 10:52 AM
Why would American be #1 ???

I worked for them for two 1/2 years and am currently furloughed from there. There is, in my humblest of opinions, an undertow of mistrust between the employees and the top level executives with specificity to their bonuses and the lack of sharing these rewards with the rank and file.

75767-Totally agree with Flifast here. But only 2 1/2 years isn't long enough to even sample how disfunctional things are here.

American Airlines and the APA are currently in contract talks. I have never worked at an airline that had contract talks that did not involve labor chaos and management brinksmanship. And yes, I hope the APA is successful at nego.-ed an industry-leading contract.

7576-Totally agree with Flifast here.

Finally, as a former TWA pilot, there are issues between the returning TWA furloughees and the current union on the property, the APA. Without turning this into a mudslinging event, I think it is a fair statement that there is some bitterness among the TWA furloughees (as many as 1890 of them) as they return to service at American. Point being, I can't see how this could be the #1 place to work, versus SWA, CAL, DAL, etc.

7576- Agree with Flifast I don't see how this place is better than SWA, CAL (I don't know anyone at Delta-but heard good things about it)
I'm not a former TWA pilot and if I were one i'd be ****ed off. But this is where I differ with Flifast if this is a Union busting threat against APA.

I'm not trying to pick AA fight, just trying to provide opinions/fAActs as to why AA might not be in the #1 spot.

My two cents worth...your conversation table may have something different.

Second, pre-9/11, SWA was a good gig and under the leadership of Bethune, CAL was an improving airline (mid 90's era).

7576-Agree SWA pre and post 9/11 great gig. It must be nice to go to work and feel that Managemnet isn't out to get you and resents your Union.


And here are my choices for the best place to work

1.SWA
2.FedEx and UPS ties. Hey, i'd go to paris for a couple years.
3.CAL or DAL
4.Netjets or Airborne doesn't sound that bad
5.Starbucks

Slice
12-03-2007, 11:33 AM
Why would there automatically be furloughs? You drinking blue kool aid?

I hear 'blue juice' is tasty! :D

JollyF15
12-03-2007, 11:41 AM
In 2020 the top airlines will be.

1. UPS
2. FedEx
3. Contindelta
4. United
5. Air TrAlaska
6. VirgBlutier
7. Mesa
8. Southwest
9. Northwest
10. US Airways

All good except I'd revise #1 to be FedUp (post merger)

Jack Bauer
12-03-2007, 02:15 PM
Five years from now:

1. DAL/NWA
2. AAL/AK
3. CAL/UAL
4. SWA


UPS will be the top freight company closely followed by FED

Tarheel
12-03-2007, 05:16 PM
The near future:

1: Chuck Norris
2: vacant
3: vacant
4: US Air Force
5: alien invaders

ChinsFive
12-03-2007, 05:24 PM
My list (in 2 years):

1) Alaska
2) UPS
3) SWA
4) Hawaiian
5) United
6) NWA

767pilot
12-03-2007, 06:04 PM
I hear 'blue juice' is tasty! :D

It must be the way those guys drink it.

FliFast
12-03-2007, 08:03 PM
UPS is a trucking company....

Not an Airline and not the Air Force.

We are merely truck drivers with polyester pants...sheesh !!!!:D

But a good gig nonetheless, just calling it like I see it.

Deez340
12-04-2007, 03:06 AM
UPS is a trucking company....

Not an Airline and not the Air Force.

We are merely truck drivers with polyester pants...sheesh !!!!:D

But a good gig nonetheless, just calling it like I see it.

I hear this quite a bit from my UPS friends and jumpseaters. They say it's a great job but that you are quite aware that you work for a trucking company. Could you elaborate?

CaribPilot
12-04-2007, 04:44 AM
The near future:

1: Chuck Norris
2: vacant
3: vacant
4: US Air Force
5: alien invaders


Best list Ive seen on here so far.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
12-04-2007, 10:22 AM
I hear this quite a bit from my UPS friends and jumpseaters. They say it's a great job but that you are quite aware that you work for a trucking company. Could you elaborate?Well, they used to call FedEx an airline that happened to have trucks and UPS a trucking company that happened to have airplanes. I think that statement was very true in the past but from what I’ve heard from guys/gals I’ve been flying with, things have improved greatly from the way it used to be (way before my time). I think FedEx has been expanding their ground side and we’ve been growing our airline side and in a way the two companies are becoming more similar in their structure; also pilots at UPS are definitely treated more like ‘airline employees’ nowadays rather than truck drivers (not that there’s anything wrong with either profession). At least that’s what lots of senior folks have told me; they fought hard to improve things for the pilot group here and personally I think they did a heck of a job and it shows.

We have our quirks and some things might seem strange initially. For example why would a multi-billion dollar company that prides itself in technological innovation keep using an archaic (in my view) phone system (VRU) for trip trades, open time pick ups, etc? Granted, you can do that online now as well but I figured we’d be the innovators when it comes to computers and online procedures. Also, sometimes it’s hard to understand why a certain decision was made by the management (for example leather jacket issue which in my mind alienates future employees) however overall I think it’s a great gig.

I have three very close friends at purple and we keep comparing our benefits, schedules, retirement plans, medical insurance, etc, etc. Each time we seem to come to a tie or maybe find one company being just a tad better than the other in one area but then the roles reverse in another area. To ask someone if he would prefer to fly for purple or for big brown is akin to asking the same person if he would prefer his million dollars in twenties or in fifties? :)

Do your job and enjoy your time off knowing your paycheck will be on time! I really think both FedEx and UPS are the top airlines of today and that the lead will widen in the future.

As far as hiring – I wish we had some kind of “silver bullet” system here when it comes to recommending someone. Basically wish our recommendations were worth more “points.”

Just my worthless ĹĘ.

fr8rcaptain
12-05-2007, 07:40 PM
To ask someone if he would prefer to fly for purple or for big brown is akin to asking the same person if he would prefer his million dollars in twenties or in fifties?
I'll take mine in $20's...it's more fun to roll around in :D

MrSuupafly
12-05-2007, 08:23 PM
I hear 'blue juice' is tasty! :D

Isn't that what Hefty smurfed all over Smurfette? No thanks.

Slice
12-05-2007, 08:26 PM
Isn't that what Hefty smurfed all over Smurfette? No thanks.

I think that was blue spoo.;)

duvie
12-06-2007, 05:20 AM
I think the decision to go to Fedex or UPS is a tough one. First, my body likes sunlight, and although I understand you can eventually hold day time flying, I wouldn't especially want to wait the time it would take. Maybe I'm a wuss there.

Second, living in base is one of my top priorities when choosing an airline. I would like to live near the ocean due to its importance in most of my hobbies/passions so that eliminates quite a few airlines (unless you like surfing in 50 degree water)

Everybody's list will be different because the varying criteria we use to judge companies and our geographic proximity to their bases. Based on pure company health I would have to say.....

1. UPS/Fedex don't know enough about to either to put one above the other
2. SWA
3. DAL/CAL
4. AA
5. NWA
6. USair
7. United

I didn't include companies like AirTran or JetBlue because I think companies like those are in a different category.

My choices with my own specific criteria thrown in:

1. United
2. AA
3. DAL
4. CAL
5. Fedex
6. UPS
7. NWA/USair

7576FO
12-06-2007, 05:51 AM
There's plenty of all night flying at AA. Takes a long time to be able to avoid it.

FliFast
12-06-2007, 08:22 AM
Out of ANC, on the the MD11, I'd say 60-65% of my flying is daytime flying. It varies based on time of season.

My pairing is a three leg pairing wheras two of the three legs are daytime flying.

The domestic folks do just the opposite, probably 90%+ of their flying is at night.

FIT59
12-06-2007, 11:06 AM
Second, living in base is one of my top priorities when choosing an airline. I would like to live near the ocean due to its importance in most of my hobbies/passions so that eliminates quite a few airlines (unless you like surfing in 50 degree water)



And UPS has MIA and ONT bases, both pretty close to the beach.

Brown
12-06-2007, 11:19 AM
I think the decision to go to Fedex or UPS is a tough one. First, my body likes sunlight, and although I understand you can eventually hold day time flying, I wouldn't especially want to wait the time it would take. Maybe I'm a wuss there.

I left a Continental Airlines 737 gig to come to UPS, and I fly more daytime here at UPS than I did at Continental. I am based in Anchorage on the MD-11.

Almost all of my trips are daytime, except for the last leg back from Asia to Anchorage. We leave Asia in the evening, and arrive in Alaska in the early afternoon. So half of that leg is daylight also.

I've always liked flying at night so I wasn't worried about it when I decided to come over. Now that I am here, I don't fly nights as much as I used to. Go figure!

Was That For Us?
12-06-2007, 11:24 AM
Who would have ever, ever thunk that flying packages for a living could entail top pay, flying a widebody as a junior copilot, and DAYLIGHT trips?

What's the world coming to... ;)

bigfatdaddy
12-06-2007, 01:44 PM
Sounds like a super gig! Hope more are available for the rest of us:D

JiffyLube
12-06-2007, 03:30 PM
DAL and CAL are ranked together with everyone. I think based info here and friends there that DAL is a much better place to work than CAL.

1. Better ins from day 1,
2. Better international growth
3 Just getting ready to start a 700+ pilot hiring binge.
4. Better pay and work rules.

So in my opinion DAL over CAL

JoeyMeatballs
12-06-2007, 03:34 PM
Is it true that delta has some "Delta Pilot Wives Club", and becuase of them the F/A's don't stay in the same hotel as the pilots. That blows if you ask me, at least the CAL F/A's stay at the same hotel as the pilots, some of them look like they would be a lot of fun................

CVG767A
12-06-2007, 07:17 PM
Is it true that delta has some "Delta Pilot Wives Club", and becuase of them the F/A's don't stay in the same hotel as the pilots.

No. They sometimes stay in different hotels in the domestic system due to their lack of a union. Their hotel preferences also sometimes differ from the pilots; we want to be near food and drink, while they want to be near shopping.

bifff15
12-06-2007, 08:29 PM
DAL and CAL are ranked together with everyone. I think based info here and friends there that DAL is a much better place to work than CAL.

1. Better ins from day 1,
2. Better international growth
3 Just getting ready to start a 700+ pilot hiring binge.
4. Better pay and work rules.

So in my opinion DAL over CAL

I read elsewhere that CAL was losing half it's pilots in the next ten years to retirements. DAL has no where near that rate. So DAL hires a bunch in the short term, and CAL continues to hire steady and retire steady what would you do? Try looking at the next ten years and ask yourself where you would rather be.
Just my opine.

TheBaron
12-06-2007, 09:51 PM
DAL and CAL are ranked together with everyone. I think based info here and friends there that DAL is a much better place to work than CAL.

1. Better ins from day 1,
2. Better international growth
3 Just getting ready to start a 700+ pilot hiring binge.
4. Better pay and work rules.

So in my opinion DAL over CAL

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Waning consumer confidence and soaring fuel costs caused Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=DAL.N), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=DAL.N), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=DAL.N)) to warn of a possible operating loss on Tuesday, while Southwest Airlines Co (LUV.N: Quote (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/quote?symbol=LUV.N), Profile (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/companyProfile?symbol=LUV.N), Research (http://www.reuters.com/stocks/researchReports?symbol=LUV.N)) said it would restrict capacity growth to brace for tougher times ahead.
The cautious statements from the two airlines are the latest signs that the U.S. airline industry is struggling to hold on to its fledgling recovery, said Henri Courpron, president of the aerospace division of investment bank and advisory firm Seabury Group.
"What we see today is there's not much room for upside. Airplanes are full. Fares have been hiked several times over the last few months," Courpron said at the Reuters Aerospace and Defense Summit.
Southwest's capacity forecast marks yet another move by the leading U.S. low-cost carrier to rein in growth. The change is not necessary bad news for Southwest, said Courpron, who noted that Southwest is still growing unlike many other airlines.
"Delta is coming as probably more of a surprise because they've come out of bankruptcy, so you would have expected that they have taken the steps that would make them profitable for at least another few quarters after coming out of bankruptcy," he said. The warnings hit most airline shares. The Amex airline index .XAL was down 1 percent, led by a 4 percent fall in Delta shares. Southwest rose 0.8 percent on optimism that the company was taking the appropriate action to improve earnings.
DELTA SEES POTENTIAL LOSS
Citing higher-than-expected fuel costs, Delta lowered its operating profit margin target to a range of 0 percent to negative 2 percent. That compares with an October forecast of an operating profit margin of 3 percent to 5 percent, the No. 3 U.S. carrier said in a filing with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission.
The company also raised its forecast for fourth-quarter jet fuel to $2.60 from $2.36 per gallon. Delta said it was responding to higher fuel prices by reducing capacity.
The carrier, which exited bankruptcy last spring, said it took 13 domestic aircraft out of its fleet during the fourth quarter. Delta also plans to cancel the equivalent of 10 domestic mainline aircraft and 35 regional jets by grounding aircraft and reducing utilization, beginning in January.
Delta said it expected 2008 domestic capacity to decline 4 percent to 5 percent.
Some of those planes will be transferred to more lucrative international routes. Delta forecast international capacity to rise 15 percent next year.
The company also plans to cut costs by about $400 million in 2008, in part by installing lighter seats and winglets on certain aircraft and halting hiring for back-office jobs.
blah blah blah and so on...

I tend to agree with these guys. DAL just exited a protracted bankruptcy and raped their employees to make a meager profit. Now they can't even seem to do that. They belong well down the list. FedEx, UPS, and SWA should be the top 3 in no particular order.

Jack Bauer
12-07-2007, 12:44 AM
http://www.reuters.com/article/AerospaceandDefense07/idUSN0621439420071206

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Delta Air Lines Inc (DAL.N: Quote, Profile, Research), which has been a vocal proponent of airline mergers in recent months, is confident it can still be profitable if it remains independent, its chief financial officer said on Thursday.

"When you look at consolidation, you have to look seriously at your stand-alone option," Edward Bastian said at the Reuters Aerospace and Defense Summit in Washington. "We feel very comfortable that our stand-alone plan is viable."

"The plan is working on all facets except one -- the price of oil," he said.

Delta earlier this week said it plans to reduce domestic capacity by 4 percent to 5 percent in 2008 because of concerns about high fuel prices and a softening U.S. economy. The No. 3 U.S. carrier also said the surge in fuel prices may cause it to post an operating loss in the fourth quarter.

By cutting back on unprofitable routes and increasing capacity on lucrative international flights, Delta believes it can overcome higher fuel costs.
"I do think that the business model could be profitable and should be profitable at (an oil price of) $90 a barrel, but it will be a challenge," said Bastian, who is also Delta's president.

With the U.S. economy softening, airlines may struggle to pass along rising costs, he said.

"I'm more concerned about the underpinning of the domestic economy (than oil)," said Bastian. "We're all on the edge of our seats."

Delta has been at the center of recent merger speculation. Speaking at the Reuters Summit this week, Doug Parker, the chief executive of US Airways Group Inc (LCC.N: Quote, Profile, Research), tipped Delta as the trigger for a round of industry consolidation.

Mergers are seen as a way to stabilize the volatile industry by allowing airlines to cut costs and raise fares.

Delta, which has denied talks with United Airlines parent UAL Corp (UAUA.O: Quote, Profile, Research), has set up a board committee to evaluate its strategic options, including mergers. Bastian reiterated that Delta is open to a deal.

"We think that the right transaction for our constituents could make a lot of sense. That's why we're studying it hard with our board," he said.

But even as Delta considers linking up with another U.S. airline, it is pushing ahead to beef up its operations. The top priority is overhauling its aging terminal at New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.

"We're not going to be slowing down any of our Delta decisions due to consolidation," said Bastian. Overhauling the JFK terminal is "our No. 1 priority as a company ... it is key to our strategy as we grow."

Bastian said the company hopes to make a decision on the project, which could have a price tag in the billions of dollars, early next year.

"We've got financing firms in place to assist with the effort," he said.

(For summit blog: summitnotebook.reuters.com/)

(Additional reporting by John Crawley; editing by John Wallace)

captainkudzu
12-07-2007, 07:11 AM
I would put fractionals and cargo first. I am a fractional pilot and had thought of going back to a major one day, but with oil prices hovering at $100 per barrel on a good day and so much overcapacity in the system, I'm not planning on leaving my bizjet any time soon. And soon, I won't want to take the paycut to leave. Already, I would have to make captain at a major to catch up to what I would be making at my current company. Who knows how long that would take, if ever, and how many furloughs I'd have to endure?

At any rate, here is how I would rate the majors:
1. American
2. Delta
3. Continental
4. US Airways
5. United
6. Southwest
7. Airtran
8. Jetblue
9. Virgin America

I rate Delta higher than they currently deserve because of my geographic location. I rate SW and Airtran lower because I would not want to spend the rest of my career on a 737 flying regional routes. AA and CAL rate high because of their pensions and intact contracts.

I won't even apply to CAL because of their year one pay scale and lack of insurance.

captainkudzu
12-07-2007, 07:14 AM
The near future:

1: Chuck Norris
2: vacant
3: vacant
4: US Air Force
5: alien invaders

ROTFL

Chuck Norris was not born. He punched his way out.

JoeyMeatballs
12-07-2007, 12:27 PM
I would put fractionals and cargo first. I am a fractional pilot and had thought of going back to a major one day, but with oil prices hovering at $100 per barrel on a good day and so much overcapacity in the system, I'm not planning on leaving my bizjet any time soon. And soon, I won't want to take the paycut to leave. Already, I would have to make captain at a major to catch up to what I would be making at my current company. Who knows how long that would take, if ever, and how many furloughs I'd have to endure?

At any rate, here is how I would rate the majors:
1. American
2. Delta
3. Continental
4. US Airways
5. United
6. Southwest
7. Airtran
8. Jetblue
9. Virgin America

I rate Delta higher than they currently deserve because of my geographic location. I rate SW and Airtran lower because I would not want to spend the rest of my career on a 737 flying regional routes. AA and CAL rate high because of their pensions and intact contracts.

I won't even apply to CAL because of their year one pay scale and lack of insurance.


Us Airways in front of SWA, you have got to be kidding me

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
12-07-2007, 04:27 PM
... I think the decision to go to Fedex or UPS is a tough one. First, my body likes sunlight, and although I understand you can eventually hold day time flying, I wouldn't especially want to wait the time it would take. Maybe I'm a wuss there...
You are not a 'wuss' at all – you just have a very common misconception about cargo flying that many pax pilots have (I used to be one of them myself). However, I've done more night flying at my previous passenger airline than here at Big Brown. Sure, there's lots of night flying here and always will be however if you go to an 'international' domicile you'll be flying lots of day trips sooner than you think. Btw. I am very junior here (year and a half). My buddy at CAL (2 year seniority) is definitely doing way more night flying than I am. He thinks CAL invented the term "red-eye!" ;)

captainkudzu
12-07-2007, 04:39 PM
Us Airways in front of SWA, you have got to be kidding me

As I said, I can't stand the thought of tooling around in a 737 for the next 30 years.

MoonShot
12-07-2007, 05:05 PM
As I said, I can't stand the thought of tooling around in a 737 for the next 30 years.

Only 17% of the Airways fleet is larger than the 737...

SWAcapt
12-08-2007, 06:44 AM
I rate SW and Airtran lower because I would not want to spend the rest of my career on a 737 flying regional routes.

I'm happy that you are content flying your Cessna around. There is no job that is perfect for everyone. I do however disagree with you in that I would not consider PHL-LAX as regional flying. That's called trans-continental.;)

Nashmd11
12-08-2007, 07:08 AM
Depends if Salary and retirement are important in your decision making. My w-2 is over double of my brother's. A 757 CA at AA. All my FO's I fly with will make over 200K this year. That's over almost any legacy's Top wide body pay. And then add in the 12% a month B-plan. There are many here making over 350K. But the Legacies will get some $ back in the future. Just don't know how much.

JetFlyer06
12-08-2007, 09:20 AM
I would put fractionals and cargo first. I am a fractional pilot and had thought of going back to a major one day, but with oil prices hovering at $100 per barrel on a good day and so much overcapacity in the system, I'm not planning on leaving my bizjet any time soon. And soon, I won't want to take the paycut to leave. Already, I would have to make captain at a major to catch up to what I would be making at my current company. Who knows how long that would take, if ever, and how many furloughs I'd have to endure?

At any rate, here is how I would rate the majors:
1. American
2. Delta
3. Continental
4. US Airways
5. United
6. Southwest
7. Airtran
8. Jetblue
9. Virgin America

I rate Delta higher than they currently deserve because of my geographic location. I rate SW and Airtran lower because I would not want to spend the rest of my career on a 737 flying regional routes. AA and CAL rate high because of their pensions and intact contracts.

I won't even apply to CAL because of their year one pay scale and lack of insurance.

NWA doesn't even make the list? Virgin America? Are you serious? You might as well have put Skybus as #1 then.

Jack Bauer
12-08-2007, 09:20 AM
But the Legacies will get some $ back in the future. Just don't know how much.

And SWA pilots might lose some ground with Herb taking less of an active role and the bean counters getting more involved with stagnent stock prices. Never go with flavor of the month or whos making the most money at this point in time. Guarenteed it will change.

⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
12-08-2007, 10:12 AM
And SWA pilots might lose some ground with Herb taking less of an active role and the bean counters getting more involved with stagnent stock prices. Never go with flavor of the month or whos making the most money at this point in time. Guarenteed it will change.Nashmd11 is UPS not SWA (I assume you were replying to his post?)

newKnow
12-08-2007, 10:55 AM
NWA doesn't even make the list? Virgin America? Are you serious? You might as well have put Skybus as #1 then.

Jet,

I think he was ranking the airlines by their bases and surfing and skiing and gambling. I think. :rolleyes:

bigfatdaddy
12-08-2007, 01:44 PM
Jet,

I think he was ranking the airlines by their bases and surfing and skiing and gambling. I think. :rolleyes:

It goes to show that QOL issues are somewhat intangible. Some one's dream job may be a nightmare for others;)

buffmike80
12-08-2007, 07:35 PM
Lets look at the numbers & some facts about them:

We are going to do some assuming here because there are many variables in play, first we are going to look at narrow body pay because all the airlines have them. We are only going to look at the next five years because as we all know everything changes very fast and there is no way to look past that in the airline industry or have any control over it. Next on pay we are going to do simple math and use the pay rates off of this website for years of service and we are just going to multiply by 1000hours every year assuming you will come close to that every year through normal line flying ,open time and cancel pay, and we are going to use upgrade times based on what they are today, yes we all know some will be more or less depending on the future of the airline.

South West: $52+88+98+108+119+122 = $587k
This could be a little low because you can get second year pay first year if you pick up open time, and that brings the 5 year total as high as $623K but it will cost you a type rating to get the job. Also up grades are 7 years right now and with them only hiring about 250 pilots next year and the growth slowing a bit I heard it may go as high as 12 years. Good relationship with management.

Continental: $31+63+75+137+138+139 = $583k
$31 dollars an hour for first year and no medical benefits for the first six months could be a big pay cut that many people just canít afford to make. They do not have any west coast bases. Up grade is only 3 years right now, I donít know if it will stay there. And donít forget to give your 2% to alpa (thatís $11k over the 5 years).

JetBlue: $47+58+67+118+121+127 = $538k
These numbers may also be on the low side since I did not factor in 1.5 for everything over 70 hours, which actually brings the total to $581K over 5 years. And 5% profit sharing guaranteed adds another $27K to your bottom line to bring you as high as $608K. Plus they pay for everything including your Uniforms & that includes the leather jacket (No hats, a big plus in my book!!!). They opened 16 new markets last year and had a few unprofitable quarters because of the cost with opening the new markets, however they seem to be making money now, and they have posted profits the last half of 2007 even though they had an operational shut down in Feb (but those people got to sit on an airplane and watch TV, what would they have done in the terminal). Upgrades on the airbus may go up to 5 years in the future. Lots of room to expand on the west coast with the E190 & upgrade is only 1.5 years, also there is not a Union and have a great working relationship with management. Pilots sign an individual work agreement that has a golden parachute in it that say in case of a merger, takeover, bankrupts that causes you to be furloughed you will be paid a severance package of 1 years salary. A common complaint is medical benefits are not very good, itís a PPO 90/10.

Frontier: $37+64+73+77+133+136 = $520k
They have had a hard time making any money in the past few quarters, southwest is on there turf. Upgrade is only 3 years right now, lots of doubt it will stay there. Denver is the only base.

Airtran: $43+56+61+112+120+124 = $516k
Good work rules so my friends say, but you have to pay for your hotel in training and they do not have any west coast bases.

Delta: $49+75+88+90+92+94 = $488k
Heard a new hire talk about paying $700 for his Uniform. Also could be as long as 7 years to get based on the west coast. 2% to alpa.

Alaska: $35+62+73+80+86+88 = $424k
I have heard management relations are not that great right now, and first year pay is pretty low. No bases on the East Coast. 2% to alpa.

Northwest: $30+63+77+79+80+82 = $411k
Low fist year pay, could be a merger target with another Legacy. 2% to alpa

UsAir: $39+61+68+75+83+85 = $411k
I used AWA pay rates since they were higher and I would guess that is the bar that they will shoot for with negotiations. Who knows what going to happen with the seniority list, it could be a long trip if you have to fly with a USair East guy that thinks he got the shaft and you have to listen to him ***** about it for 4 days. I heard lots of talk when I was at Mesa that E190 was going to come to PHX to start flying on the west coast. Give 2% to alpa (maybe)

United: $32+50+73+78+80+82 = $395k
Lowest of all pay, and its relationship with management is right up there with Mesaís. plus 2% to alpa.

I am by no means trying to bag on alpa it is just one of those factors that people should consider when ranking airlines because those union dues really start to add up, over the course of a career you could pay over $200K in dues.

Deez340
12-08-2007, 08:42 PM
Lets look at the numbers & some facts about them:

We are going to do some assuming here because there are many variables in play, first we are going to look at narrow body pay because all the airlines have them. We are only going to look at the next five years because as we all know everything changes very fast and there is no way to look past that in the airline industry or have any control over it. Next on pay we are going to do simple math and use the pay rates off of this website for years of service and we are just going to multiply by 1000hours every year assuming you will come close to that every year through normal line flying ,open time and cancel pay, and we are going to use upgrade times based on what they are today, yes we all know some will be more or less depending on the future of the airline.

South West: $52+88+98+108+119+122 = $587k
This could be a little low because you can get second year pay first year if you pick up open time, and that brings the 5 year total as high as $623K but it will cost you a type rating to get the job. Also up grades are 7 years right now and with them only hiring about 250 pilots next year and the growth slowing a bit I heard it may go as high as 12 years. Good relationship with management.

Continental: $31+63+75+137+138+139 = $583k
$31 dollars an hour for first year and no medical benefits for the first six months could be a big pay cut that many people just canít afford to make. They do not have any west coast bases. Up grade is only 3 years right now, I donít know if it will stay there. And donít forget to give your 2% to alpa (thatís $11k over the 5 years).

JetBlue: $47+58+67+118+121+127 = $538k
These numbers may also be on the low side since I did not factor in 1.5 for everything over 70 hours, which actually brings the total to $581K over 5 years. And 5% profit sharing guaranteed adds another $27K to your bottom line to bring you as high as $608K. Plus they pay for everything including your Uniforms & that includes the leather jacket (No hats, a big plus in my book!!!). They opened 16 new markets last year and had a few unprofitable quarters because of the cost with opening the new markets, however they seem to be making money now, and they have posted profits the last half of 2007 even though they had an operational shut down in Feb (but those people got to sit on an airplane and watch TV, what would they have done in the terminal). Upgrades on the airbus may go up to 5 years in the future. Lots of room to expand on the west coast with the E190 & upgrade is only 1.5 years, also there is not a Union and have a great working relationship with management. Pilots sign an individual work agreement that has a golden parachute in it that say in case of a merger, takeover, bankrupts that causes you to be furloughed you will be paid a severance package of 1 years salary. A common complaint is medical benefits are not very good, itís a PPO 90/10.

Frontier: $37+64+73+77+133+136 = $520k
They have had a hard time making any money in the past few quarters, southwest is on there turf. Upgrade is only 3 years right now, lots of doubt it will stay there. Denver is the only base.

Airtran: $43+56+61+112+120+124 = $516k
Good work rules so my friends say, but you have to pay for your hotel in training and they do not have any west coast bases.

Delta: $49+75+88+90+92+94 = $488k
Heard a new hire talk about paying $700 for his Uniform. Also could be as long as 7 years to get based on the west coast. 2% to alpa.

Alaska: $35+62+73+80+86+88 = $424k
I have heard management relations are not that great right now, and first year pay is pretty low. No bases on the East Coast. 2% to alpa.

Northwest: $30+63+77+79+80+82 = $411k
Low fist year pay, could be a merger target with another Legacy. 2% to alpa

UsAir: $39+61+68+75+83+85 = $411k
I used AWA pay rates since they were higher and I would guess that is the bar that they will shoot for with negotiations. Who knows what going to happen with the seniority list, it could be a long trip if you have to fly with a USair East guy that thinks he got the shaft and you have to listen to him ***** about it for 4 days. I heard lots of talk when I was at Mesa that E190 was going to come to PHX to start flying on the west coast. Give 2% to alpa (maybe)

United: $32+50+73+78+80+82 = $395k
Lowest of all pay, and its relationship with management is right up there with Mesaís. plus 2% to alpa.

I am by no means trying to bag on alpa it is just one of those factors that people should consider when ranking airlines because those union dues really start to add up, over the course of a career you could pay over $200K in dues.

Just one of many corrections, Delta new hires have recently made it out west in as little as a few weeks for LA to the first day of class if your talking about SLC. Also it's a little telling that your two biggest paragraphs were about JetBlue, and USAir in which you mentioned you flew for Mesa. Makes me wonder why if JetBlue is so fantastic that there where three JB guys in one of our newhire classes I stuck my head into a while back. Things that make you go hmmmmmm. In fairness I bet JetBlue seems like nirvana coming from Mesa.

Deez340
12-08-2007, 09:04 PM
JetBlue: $47+58+67+118+121+127 = $538k
These numbers may also be on the low side since I did not factor in 1.5 for everything over 70 hours, which actually brings the total to $581K over 5 years. And 5% profit sharing guaranteed adds another $27K to your bottom line to bring you as high as $608K. Plus they pay for everything including your Uniforms & that includes the leather jacket (No hats, a big plus in my book!!!). They opened 16 new markets last year and had a few unprofitable quarters because of the cost with opening the new markets, however they seem to be making money now, and they have posted profits the last half of 2007 even though they had an operational shut down in Feb (but those people got to sit on an airplane and watch TV, what would they have done in the terminal). Upgrades on the airbus may go up to 5 years in the future. Lots of room to expand on the west coast with the E190 & upgrade is only 1.5 years, also there is not a Union and have a great working relationship with management. Pilots sign an individual work agreement that has a golden parachute in it that say in case of a merger, takeover, bankrupts that causes you to be furloughed you will be paid a severance package of 1 years salary. A common complaint is medical benefits are not very good, itís a PPO 90/10.


Delta: $49+75+88+90+92+94 = $488k
Heard a new hire talk about paying $700 for his Uniform. Also could be as long as 7 years to get based on the west coast. 2% to alpa.[/quote]


I can't help myself. I'm going to be a real toolbox here, but I'd rather pay a few hundred bucks for a real airline uniform than be caught in that flight attendant getup they give you for free. All right, I'm done.... for now.

TheBaron
12-08-2007, 09:15 PM
Lets look at the numbers & some facts about them:

We are going to do some assuming here because there are many variables in play, first we are going to look at narrow body pay because all the airlines have them. We are only going to look at the next five years because as we all know everything changes very fast and there is no way to look past that in the airline industry or have any control over it. Next on pay we are going to do simple math and use the pay rates off of this website for years of service and we are just going to multiply by 1000hours every year assuming you will come close to that every year through normal line flying ,open time and cancel pay, and we are going to use upgrade times based on what they are today, yes we all know some will be more or less depending on the future of the airline.

South West: $52+88+98+108+119+122 = $587k

Continental: $31+63+75+137+138+139 = $583k

JetBlue: $47+58+67+118+121+127 = $538k
These numbers may also be on the low side since I did not factor in 1.5 for everything over 70 hours, which actually brings the total to $581K over 5 years. And 5% profit sharing guaranteed adds another $27K to your bottom line to bring you as high as $608K. Plus they pay for everything including your Uniforms & that includes the leather jacket (No hats, a big plus in my book!!!). They opened 16 new markets last year and had a few unprofitable quarters because of the cost with opening the new markets, however they seem to be making money now, and they have posted profits the last half of 2007 even though they had an operational shut down in Feb (but those people got to sit on an airplane and watch TV, what would they have done in the terminal). Upgrades on the airbus may go up to 5 years in the future. Lots of room to expand on the west coast with the E190 & upgrade is only 1.5 years, also there is not a Union and have a great working relationship with management. Pilots sign an individual work agreement that has a golden parachute in it that say in case of a merger, takeover, bankrupts that causes you to be furloughed you will be paid a severance package of 1 years salary. A common complaint is medical benefits are not very good, itís a PPO 90/10.

Frontier: $37+64+73+77+133+136 = $520k

Airtran: $43+56+61+112+120+124 = $516k

Delta: $49+75+88+90+92+94 = $488k

Alaska: $35+62+73+80+86+88 = $424k

Northwest: $30+63+77+79+80+82 = $411k

UsAir: $39+61+68+75+83+85 = $411k

United: $32+50+73+78+80+82 = $395k


I'm a little slow...that's why I fly freight, but didn't you say five years? How come you show six pay rates and 6000 hours for everybody? How does a company guarantee 5% profit sharing regardless of whether or not they make a profit? Why don't they just bump your pay rates up 5%? Maybe you can get that in your next CBA....oh, never mind.

Jay5150
12-08-2007, 10:24 PM
Buff,

I'm really not one to flame but you must have just stayed right by the blue juice fountain the whole time you were at indoc. Look, I'm always treated great by you guys ridin' to work and appreciate it. But with regards to your post....

First off, I don't think that anyone is planning on a 5 year career. So for your comparison to have any validity, you are going to have to run it out to a normal 20 - 30 year career. That means you're going to have to put in widebody pay (plus international override pay) and that means your numbers will change dramatically.

I know that you were comparing mid-bodies, but the fact of the matter is that here at DAL almost all new hires are going into the 767ER and if they aren't they could hold it on their first bid. (don't forget to add in the international override)

You put in some references under Blue for things like 1.5 pay and profit sharing. I know you don't know everyone's contract, but since you threw in some of your perks.... I averaged 110 hours pay a month this past spring and summer never flying more than 80. My best was 146 hours of pay and 76 hours of work. I did this without losing a single day off. How? Because it's in the contract. That one month's extra pay covered my ALPA dues 3 times over for the entire year. I've got my problems with ALPA but I'll take my union contract over your work rules any day.

You've got profit sharing? So do we. So does CAL, NWA, SWA and UAL. How are Blue's profits comparatively this past year? All the legacies have an A, B or C fund, or some combination there of. Some have admittedly been gutted but they are there where Blue has none. It's great that you get a uniform and a laptop but is a couple grand of stuff worth the earnings of these funds over a career? Hell, even a year.

I can't believe you're defending the Valentine's day masacre with the damn TV's.

You don't even want to think about what will happen to you if you merge with or get bought by a union carrier, severence package or not.

Finally, I agree you can't precicely predict the future. But this you can take to the bank. All the contract negotiations coming up are going to reshape the pay scales significantly. By the way, our contract pay rates go up across the board every year. I don't mean you just go from 4 year to 5 year pay, I mean the whole pay scale increases every year. So you need to re-figure yet again.

I could go on, but I'm really not trying to insult.

A post that was so off the mark was begging for a refutal.

Take it easy

newKnow
12-08-2007, 11:14 PM
Pilots sign an individual work agreement that has a golden parachute in it that say in case of a merger, takeover, bankrupts that causes you to be furloughed you will be paid a severance package of 1 years salary.

Dude,

I'm not going to burn you because you seem to have put a lot of thought and work into your analysis, but the fact that you sign an individual work agreement is not a good thing. Is there anything in there that states that they have to resign you after it terminates?

Also, your pay calculations which include upgrade increases are not a projection for the pilots that are getting hired now. They represent those who got hired 5 years ago. Upgrade times are fluid and depend on a lot of factors. In fact, the best indicator for upgrade times is when you got hired in the cycle for that airline. If you got hired early; quick upgrade. Hired late; slow upgrade.

On top of that, you are comparing your airline and its two aircraft types with other airlines with many aircraft types and pay rates. For instance, NWA is putting new hires into the back seat of the 747-200. At year 5 it looks like they would make more than one of your 5 year E-190 Captains. That's without international override, per diem, or pay at 150% for flying over 80 hrs (which you missed), ect.

I'm sure with the pace DAL is hiring they have new hires going to the 767 with the same perks and the same for United.

Anyway, I'm not on here trying to get you to move NWA or anyone else up or down. But, I just thought you should know your "numbers" were a little skewed. Ok, they a skewed a lot. Fly safe. :)

REAL Pilot
12-09-2007, 06:08 AM
Another often overlooked benefit at UAL is a Company funded 16% annual B-Fund contribution plus profit sharing.

7576FO
12-09-2007, 06:51 AM
So are you saying that SWA's in house union has no dues?

I'm sure they do.

I'm not a detractor of JetBlue. I wish them well. But aren't things changing? Isn't there a Union movement there now?

7576FO
12-09-2007, 06:57 AM
I'm hearing so much anti union stuff on this board.
So many non-union pilots spouting how the unions have done nothing to keep managment from gutting their contracts. So was that 2% dues worth it?

Let me say this. When it comes to getting back and then some, without a Union do you think any management would just offer you a raise and benefits.
Yes, my union dues are well spent.
Just my opinion and nothing humbel about it.
7576

SkyHigh
12-09-2007, 07:08 AM
25 Years ago TWA, Pan Am and Eastern were among the biggest names in the sky. No one here can accurately predict what the future will hold except that it will be vastly diffrent from today. The stars and strongholds of our time could easily become Ebay fodder in 10 years.

The crazy guy who pumped gas at the local FBO for minimum wage was a former Eastern Airlines Captain. He was always mumbling about how he use to make a fortune and was treated with respect.

Maybe we should bet on the dark horse?

Jim

RickJames
12-09-2007, 12:04 PM
I think a few people already alluded to this but the best airline really depends on what your definition of successful is. If its making lots of money, then for sure a Fedex, UPS. As far as job security, I dont think that really any airline is bulletproof - maybe something along Federal/state job and perhaps Netjets would be the best IMO. Maybe successful is spending time with your family/kids and balancing flying. Personally I'd love to win the lotto, retire, and fly my own plane when I want, not when someone tells me to.

johnso29
12-09-2007, 12:51 PM
On top of that, you are comparing your airline and its two aircraft types with other airlines with many aircraft types and pay rates. For instance, NWA is putting new hires into the back seat of the 747-200. At year 5 it looks like they would make more than one of your 5 year E-190 Captains. That's without international override, per diem, or pay at 150% for flying over 80 hrs (which you missed), ect.




Any idea how many a class have been going, or how many more they need? I have class on Feb 11th, just trying to figure out if I might be in it. I think I'll be the 2nd youngest in my class. Thanks