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Dune
01-03-2008, 06:31 AM
For of those who might be interested, here is a post I recently put on Pprune ref "Emirates" in response to an individual who is employed by a "legacy" carrier and is considering making the move to EK.

I hope it provides a somewhat balanced view........any additions and/or discreditation/contrary views from any/all is welcomed.

Best regards and Happy New Years to you all.

Dune



Friendly Pelican (and all others considering a career change to Emirates):


Quote:
Hi guys,
I realise there is a lot of animus being vented at the moment, but I need a couple of honest answers please....
10K total, legacy carrier F/O, perhaps 2.5K PIC heavy turbine from a former life. Likely to pick up a narrowbody command this year.
Always held a torch to EK for 'citizen of the world' reasons.
Are EK still offering the accelerated-command program? If that's so, how would I stand?
What about DEC in a couple of years?
Yes, I realise the politics. At this stage it's about scoping an answer elsewhere..
Many thanks in advance for the considered replies......
Best wishes to all for the New Year
FP

Your question is one I've been asked many times by colleagues from "previous lives" who are contemplating a move to Emirates. Hence my response might be somewhat lengthy as I intend upon using this as a "template reply" to those who ask me in the future what I feel they should do.

While I'm sure there will be those who disagree (and I would encourage all expat pilots to provide input, not just Emirates types), here is my honest opinion/advice (Capt EK; been here going on 10 years; no management aspirations; consider myself rather "grounded" when compared to other posters on this website (my wife might disagree LOL!):

-Emirates is "generally" a good company from a pilots perspective (well capitalized, lots of new a/c orders, reasonably well organized in terms of rostering/staff travel/medical/education/housing/out-station support/etc).

-The lifestyle is "generally" of a good-to-high quality if you enjoy the beach/gym/sailing/etc (thanks in no part to Emirates; this is only a function of the Emirates Pilots Club which I tip my hat to!). My wife and I do enjoy this sort of lifestyle so for us this is a bonus and truly makes this place bearable. If you are not into this, in my opinion there is very little else beyond shopping

OK........that is the good stuff that I'm sure the recruiting team will have highlighted over and over in the promo-videos and the pumped-up recruitment road shows across the globe.

Now on to what you REALLY need to consider.

The problem with the whole thing is Dubai itself is a very difficult place to live in the long term. In 20 years it will be great with all the stuff they are building but currently it is nothing other than a huge construction site. This is not a short term problem; this is reality for the next 15-20 years. Even the government admits (albeit through "hints" in the local paper) that they are aware of the problem and are working towards a solution. The problem is the "solution" will not become reality for a very long time (they proudly mentioned 2015 as the time where they will have enough roads to handle all the cars). In the interim you are stuck inside a 24/7 construction site which for 4 months of the year resembles living inside a kiln (15 June-15 Oct inclusive ....trust me, those dates are unbelievably accurate based upon personal experience......and I like hot weather!).

Secondly; with due respect to other nationalities on this site, many of the "character issues" associated with those from the Middle East, India, Pakistan, etc will over time **** you off (insane driving without any talent/ability to actually control their vehicle.....leading to the deaths on the roads that have been talked about in detail; rude "butting in" in both traffic, banks, shopping centers; blatant staring at your wife/daughter by hordes of construction types, spitting out the window of the car, guys holding hands in public (and no, I am not homophobic LOL!) etc). In short, the term "uncivilized *******s" will become very clear to you when dealing with the majority of the population here.

Third, the other aspect to consider is the other "quality of life" issues. This would be the family/friends you leave and have little to no association with due to the disconnected nature of being an "international airline pilot". Do not discredit this aspect; while initially it all looks rosy there comes a time where you look back on all the friends getting together for house parties, lost family get togethers at the lake over the years, birthday parties, weddings, etc and really question whether the shiny airplanes and somewhat higher salary (rapidly dwindling at EK due to inflation and USD depreciation) is really worth it. The more you are here the more the answer becomes.....NO.

The point of this diatribe is I think this company/place is attractive (or not) depending on what part of the globe you are from, how old you are, how stable your current employment is with your current employer, and how long you plan to be here.

The single biggest question you need to ask yourself is:

"WHEN I/MY FAMILY HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THIS PLACE, WHAT IS NEXT?"

"WHERE WILL I GO?"

"WHAT WILL I DO?"

.......because no matter what there comes a time when all of us have had enough of this place. That is the reality of Emirates and Dubai.


Here is what I think about those pilots who are considering Emirates:


THOSE WHO I FEEL SHOULD COME

-those who have significant flight experience, are unemployed and don't have a reasonable chance of getting hired by a major airline in the foreseeable future.

-those who have significant flight experience, are currently employed and have jobs with questionable airlines (charter airlines in countries with a history of bankruptcy's, low cost carriers other than those that have a proven history of consistent performance, etc) and where you have a genuine concern your airline will not be around in the future.

-those who are with "junior" airlines with little flying experience (small jet; maybe turbo prop in the future) and do not feel they will ever be able to get hired by a "legacy" carrier in their home country.

-those from (I hate to use the term) 3rd world countries where the salary you would earn in your home country (no matter how long you stayed there) would not equate to that you would earn at Emirates.

-those that are with "legacy" carriers but, due to recession/restructuring/takeovers/etc. are within 8-10 years of retirement (ie. age 55 +) and feel they can do better in their remaining "productive" flying years coming to EK as opposed to staying at their current carrier.


THOSE WHO I FEEL SHOULD NOT COME


-in addition to that above, those with any sort of family issues that preclude a long term (ie.....plan on a lifetime) devotion to living outside your home country (because for the majority this will become the reality) commitment to living/working outside your home country.

IMHO

If you are in a "legacy" company with a potential long term career that you can enjoy in your home country.......do not leave. I envy those who are in large "legacy" companies that have the potential to be around for the next 20 years.......no guarantees but if things turn for the worst and you are not "bought out" at least you have the option of going overseas at that time. If I was able to get a narrow body command with a reasonable chance of my employer being around in 10 years........I would take it. PERIOD.

-if you decide to come to Emirates, do not count on staying here more than 10-12 years. When you go through this process, think about where you will go when you/your wife have had enough.......obviously "home" will not be an option due to union/seniority issues therefore you have committed you/your family to a life of living in foreign countries for the rest of your career. Are you prepared to do this?

Friendly Pelican:

In your position, I would stay home and take the command. A couple years and you'll be eligible for an Emirates DEC position (note: I do not agree in any aspect with this policy but it is what it is). If your legacy carrier works out you'll have the best of all worlds: a PIC position that pays reasonable wages in a community you'll enjoy living in.

Alternate: take the command but watch the economy. If the U.S. goes into recession in 2008 (this is very possible) and there are furloes; try to take a voluntary furlough and come to EK........but in all cases protect your seniority number. When times get better........take your 2-3 years at EK and then go back to civilization.


Typhoonpilot
01-03-2008, 11:20 AM
An excellent, well balanced, post Dune.


TP

HSLD
01-03-2008, 12:30 PM
Thanks Dune!


7576FO
01-03-2008, 06:38 PM
thanks Dune!

smails
01-03-2008, 06:45 PM
Was out having my favorite beverage with someone who said that they are considering opening a US base. It has caught the attention of a few of them, but it is probably just wishful thinking.

Blueridger
01-04-2008, 07:24 AM
Great post Dune.......

I think those coming from a US 121 airline will be surprised at how different the working conditions are at EK. I went to the initial interview keeping an open mind, but what absolutely stunned me is that EK is pretty much all long-haul flying but the days off are ridiculously low!!! They can assign you as few as 8 days off a month, with the average seeming to be 13-14. Heck, I had more days off flying for a regional years ago. Long-haul flying is usually a great gig because of the time off you get AT HOME, but EK makes you work well over half the month. Also, seniority will not buy you any additional vacation periods. 42 days a year (which is great for a new guy), but that is it! Rosters are drawn up for you, there is no hard line bidding. Transitioning between equipment can be impossible and is not seniority based. The list goes on......
I agree that EK is a great gig for someone who is young, preferably single, and has a few years to play with, getting some heavy time and seeing the world, but for anyone else, I think they need to take a long hard look at what life will be like for them should they make the jump.
I think I have already reached my conclusion.

Skyone
01-04-2008, 02:54 PM
Couldn't disagree with you more. Over the last 12 months I have averaged only 60 hours a month. Even my last month on reserve, I only worked FIVE days. I average over 15 days off a month, even when not on vacation. It's all in how you do your preferential bidding, which most US airlines are going to anyway. They even make you take rest days before some trips and after. The rest requirements are much stricter than the FAAs. Sure some guys have been abused, tell me an airline where that doesn't happen. You just gotta know how to bid. Stay away from the turnarounds.....

Blueridger
01-28-2008, 08:26 AM
Thanks for the reply Skyone,

I am planning on going to phase II in Dubai sometime in March for the EK interview. In my last post, I was alluding to the fact that the minimum time off in a month was 8 days; that part scares me! If they ever find themselves short-staffed (which seems to be probable this year), they can certainly abuse you! Preferential bidding works great depending on your seniority of course........
How long have you worked at EK? I'm still suffering from "heavyitis" and looking at the possibilities over there considering the US is looking like it's heading into a recession this year. But that's okay, we'll just borrow MORE money from the Chinese, give it to the American people who can then buy MORE of their products, right???
If you could clarify the seniority system / transition bids for me, I would appreciate it. I'm still pretty fuzzy on that whole deal. Happy flying!

bus canuck
01-28-2008, 06:15 PM
Thanks for the reply Skyone,

I am planning on going to phase II in Dubai sometime in March for the EK interview. In my last post, I was alluding to the fact that the minimum time off in a month was 8 days; that part scares me! If they ever find themselves short-staffed (which seems to be probable this year), they can certainly abuse you! Preferential bidding works great depending on your seniority of course........
How long have you worked at EK? I'm still suffering from "heavyitis" and looking at the possibilities over there considering the US is looking like it's heading into a recession this year. But that's okay, we'll just borrow MORE money from the Chinese, give it to the American people who can then buy MORE of their products, right???
If you could clarify the seniority system / transition bids for me, I would appreciate it. I'm still pretty fuzzy on that whole deal. Happy flying!

For the guys considering EK, this month has brought another stark reminder of how little control you have when you take an ex-pat job.

Last year was relatively quiet as staffing levels were pretty good. However, this year we know that there is record expansion planned and the panic has already started. Airbus Captains who were invited to bid onto the 777 last year, and who had course dates awarded, have suddenly found out that all such courses are cancelled. I assume that the 777 positions will be taken up by DECs.

The Feb. scheds came out with a nasty surprise; Pilots who were senior and had bid for stretches of days off had single day (or night) turn-around trips manually inserted after the original computer solution. This is a knee-jerk reaction from senior management who believe that 6-10 days off in a row are too much. The really galling part is that there is no productivity gain; they merely add these flights as a punitive measure to try and prevent commuting and keep guys in Dubai. (Full disclosure: my life is here and I don't bid or need stretches of days off. I just am discouraged by the childishness of our Flight Ops Management.)

I think some of the guys who have only seen calm times are in for an eye opener. "Knowing how to bid," is not going to help you when flights get inserted. Furthermore, just wait for "factoring" to be applied and then let's discuss FTLs. Finally, I wonder how guys will feel if, as was done in 2005, the new DECs are brought in at a higher salary than the existing Captains?

Anyway, my point in this forum is that you must weigh heavily the issue that you have absolutely no rights in this environment. This fact should be at the top of the the "Cons" on your Pros vs. Cons list, IMHO.

atpcliff
01-29-2008, 12:11 AM
Hi!

I have been looking at EK for 4 years. I finally decided it is not for us. If they do open N. American basing, which they will probably be forced to do, or if they set things up to be commutable, as Air India has, I would consider it.

I think companies like KAL and Cathay have it right-they hire pilots and allow them to base in their own countries.

cliff
YIP

Dune
02-02-2008, 04:44 AM
atpcliff:

The current President of Emirates Airlines, Tim Clark, has gone on record as saying there will never be basings at Emirates as long as he is with the company. And since he has been with the company since it's beginnings, I would not bet on any form of either basings nor commuting rosters any time soon (you can read that as ....never). And don't even think about the "market forces" arguement.........it is not going to happen here as there continues to be a flood of applicants from "less than 1st world" countries (India, Malaysia, South America, etc) that Emirates is more than happy to employ and keep the status quo.

Skyone:

I couldn't disagree with you more over your disagreement. I have never "averaged over 15 days off a month" and I have been here many, many more years than you have (and I am very competent with the bid system). It is obvious you and I work for a "different airline" due to the fact you are employed on the Boeing as opposed to the Airbus (the Boeing has many more opportunities to bid for long haul flights whereas the Airbus mixed fleet type of rostering has a combination of lessor long range flights combined with tons of short haul back of the clock flights). As such, you telling those outside the company that your roster is indicative of what to expect when employed by Emirates is misleading in my opinion.

As a result of my original post, I had a flurry of p.m.'s from guys who are considering making the move (mostly as D.E. Captains) to Emirates. Interestingly, most of those were looking at trying to commute from the U.S. to Dubai. I cannot stress firmly enough how this is a VERY BAD IDEA.

As mentioned by bus canuck, this company has no desire in any respect to cater to the needs (or desires) of it's pilots in order to allow them to commute. In fact, they go out of their way to try to make it as difficult as possible to commute. The February roster is evidence as to the lengths they will go to to keep things "local".

In short, I know of no one who received more than 6 days off in a row in his or her Feb roster. This includes a f/o who I flew with recently who is a UAE national, as well as the top first officer in his bid group, as well as being in the top bid group for Feb (therefore he should have received exactly the bid he submitted as there is not another more senior f/o in the company in that month........if he didn't get what he wanted there is something seriously wrong going on below the surface). So it is obvious what has happened is the company has decided to circumvent the computerized bid system for a reason that has not been divulged.

The bottom line is anyone considering coming here has to have rocks in his head if he thinks he is going to commute. If that is your plan, I cannot stress firmly enough how you should look elsewhere. Unless you plan to bring your kids up in Dubai :eek:..........don't even look to this place.

Gillegan
02-03-2008, 03:07 AM
atpcliff:

The current President of Emirates Airlines, Tim Clark, has gone on record as saying there will never be basings at Emirates as long as he is with the company. . ...

This is absolutely true. You would be foolish to make your plans based on anything else.


The bottom line is anyone considering coming here has to have rocks in his head if he thinks he is going to commute. If that is your plan, I cannot stress firmly enough how you should look elsewhere. Unless you plan to bring your kids up in Dubai :eek:..........don't even look to this place.

This is very good advice. If anyone in recruiting is telling you otherwise, you need to consider it in the context that they are under enormous pressure to meet the required numbers this year yet are denied the resources and or package to do it. Very simply, they have no authority to say anything other than what Mr. Clark has said above. You can say what you want about him (and I usually do) but he can't be accused of mixed messages regarding commuting or basings.

Skyone
02-08-2008, 03:43 PM
Dune,
I think you are right about this being "two" airlines, and I stand by my last year of work. But as noted, this is all changing now with Mr. Ed's email. So to all those reading these posts about time off and all........disregard my last post. Look to Dune's to be the correct answer to the way things are now. Past performance does not reflect future "earnings". And truely, don't even think that there will be out of country basings. If for no other reason, you think EK would ever give up a revenue seat to deadhead a half dozen pilots to work? Practically every flight out of JFK is always overbooked. And if they did, would you want to ride in the back for 14 hours sitting in a middle seat among 303 other of your closest compadres?

Gillegan
02-08-2008, 11:39 PM
To the lurkers giving some thought to Emirates, the email that Skyone refers to is an announcement by our management that they will now limit the number of days off for pilots in the top bid groups to 14 "for safety". This represents a huge unilateral change in our terms and conditions that has left the pilot group as ****ed off as I have ever seen them. What they seem to be trying to do is to limit the desirability of ULR trips (lots of work but lots of days off) in order to spread them around a bit more and to also limit pilots ability to go home on their days off. This is in addition to us recently being informed that we are only entitled to 30 days of leave a year despite the fact that our contract says 42 days.

What this means to you (and more importantly your family) is that you better really like Dubai because you won't be getting home more than twice a year (if you're lucky). But it is a BIG SHINY JET after all.

bus canuck
02-09-2008, 12:37 AM
that has left the pilot group as ****ed off as I have ever seen them.


You're too right, man. In my 5 years, I've never seen the pilots so riled up. And while I was personally more affected by the shifting upgrade policy, these latest changes have left me feeling like I've been hit in the head with a baseball bat. After a good 2007, and just when you thought things were going to OK for the long term, this happens.

I just can't believe that I got a congratulatory email saying that the company was able to give almost all the pilots 30 days leave (which is what I got albeit not the days I asked for.) My contract couldn't be more clear - 42 days. What the hell happened to the 12 days? Can you imagine having almost 2 weeks leave that is promised to you just wiped away?:mad:

The scheduling issue is huge for 2 reasons; They've arbitrarily changed how bids work in a punitive manner and they've blatantly lied about why they did it.

I try to keep a balance and long-term view, but right now this company looks like crap.:(

captjns
02-09-2008, 01:51 PM
You know that you can't sue royalty for breach on contract... don't ya?:mad:

Blueridger
02-14-2008, 07:28 AM
All I can say is WOW! That blows...... Well, if nothing else, I will let EK fly me to Dubai to say hi to a friend and check out the place and then tell them: "no thankyou, I have a perfectly good job right now with a strong union representing me and some hard and fast work rules."

Good luck to you all at EK, and thanks for the informative posts.

spitfire1500
02-17-2008, 03:40 PM
Recently I did a 4 day layover in Dubai and unexpectedly ran into some old friends now at Emirates (in the Crown Plaza bar)..they are single and seem to love it...but in the same few hours we were screamed at by an Iraqi prostitute! Who told me I was evil and would be struck dead, then wanted to come spend the night for a few$. I dont think I could live there...besides a beer was about 9 bucks!!

KoruPilot
02-18-2008, 07:25 AM
It's kind of sounding like Eva. . . this thread is getting very similar to the nankantraz forum and I am wondering if the T&C problem you guy's and gal's are having will start to affect pay. I know what they pay in Indonesia and S America, and that appears to be what's keeping Eva's aircraft flying. I'm just amazed that with all the orders they aren't worried about the downstream, not too distant future of parked hulls.

Sorry to hear it as it really should be a cherry contract all the way 'round.

Typhoonpilot
02-19-2008, 12:08 AM
It's kind of sounding like Eva. . . this thread is getting very similar to the nankantraz forum and I am wondering if the T&C problem you guy's and gal's are having will start to affect pay. I know what they pay in Indonesia and S America, and that appears to be what's keeping Eva's aircraft flying. I'm just amazed that with all the orders they aren't worried about the downstream, not too distant future of parked hulls.

Sorry to hear it as it really should be a cherry contract all the way 'round.

Hi Koru:

It's nothing like EVA, not even close. Emirates is far better and there are many ex-EVA drivers at Emirates that would agree to that statement.

In all airline jobs, whether they be overseas or at home, the T & Cs have eroded significantly over the last 20 years. It is a continuing trend with no end in sight. Each individual will have their breaking point when enough is enough. What they do then is up to them.

Ay my carrier in the USA they started with changing the rigs back in the mid-90s. That effectively created 3 to 4 more days of work to get the same credit time. Gillegan will remember that as he was in the Union at that time. I was languishing on an 8 year furlough thanks to, among other things, the 767 pilots flying 10 hours of overtime per month at the companies request and the Union's approval ( note, not a dig on Gillegan I'm sure he was against that as he was pretty junior and not on the 767 ).

Post 9-11 the pay for the position I held dropped progressively from $110/hour to $76/hour, where it remains today. Vacation time was cut, more messing with the trip and duty rigs meant even more work to get the credit time, and the most wonderful thing of all the Pension plan was terminated. That cost most pilots high 6 to low 7 figures in lost retirement savings.

While being limited to 6 days off in a row and a target maximum of 14 is not a step in the right direction, it isn't as bad as some of the things that have happened in my career.


Typhoonpilot

bus canuck
02-19-2008, 05:05 AM
TP, while I do agree that EK is not as bad as Eva (yet), I do feel the need to point out 1 very big difference between the career set-backs you have dealt with and the present situation at Emirates. The economics of flying in North America were at an all-time low in the early 2000's, BEFORE 9/11. We all know what happened after.

As pilots, we could look in the cabin and see empty airplanes and KNOW what was coming. And they did. Everyone faced lay-off, downgrades, mergers and worse. You could blame lots of people, but with no passengers, the pain was inevitable.

Now let’s look at Emirates Airlines. You study the economics and determine that the quick command, good routes and reasonable pay are worth moving your family half-way around the world and denying your parents the chance to see their grandkids grow up. You gamble that an act of terrorism or changing economics won't ruin your plans.

And you win. This year, Emirates will make over $1, 000, 000, 000.00 profits. That is not a misprint. Emirates will make over 1 billion USD in PROFIT this fiscal year.

In the face of these record profits, for the 5+ years I've been here, about every 18 months there has been a claw-back. But they don't even own up to it?! They call it "cost neutral" or a "safety issue" to balance the schedules.

(As an aside, for the 2nd year in a row, I have no leave during school holidays. This year, I was given 30 days, not the 42 that's in my contract, and none of it is "prime time." Without the ability to string together at least 10 days, how will I visit my family on the West Coast of NA with my kids??)

So yes, like you I've had worse things happen in my career and like I say, I always try to look at the big picture. These latest changes are not life threatening. But given the amount of money the company is making and the fact that they're trying to attract pilots, what can we expect when things slow down? Pretty scary thought...

Philly Boy
02-19-2008, 07:59 AM
Originally Posted by Dune
atpcliff:

The current President of Emirates Airlines, Tim Clark, has gone on record as saying there will never be basings at Emirates as long as he is with the company. . ...

This is absolutely true. You would be foolish to make your plans based on anything else.

Question.....

Looking at your current plans for aircraft orders (based on ACP info)....
45-B777's
56-A380's
70-A350's
......your fleet is going to almost triple.
Is DXB large enough to handle all these aircrafts?
One might think you guys would have to look elsewhere for another base.

P.S. I absolutely did not make my decision to join Emirates based on this ignorant conclusion!!!!

the turtle
02-19-2008, 10:04 AM
Recently I did a 4 day layover in Dubai and unexpectedly ran into some old friends now at Emirates (in the Crown Plaza bar)..they are single and seem to love it...but in the same few hours we were screamed at by an Iraqi prostitute! Who told me I was evil and would be struck dead, then wanted to come spend the night for a few$. I dont think I could live there...besides a beer was about 9 bucks!!

Actually, Bodystuffer, your type of twisted AirMiddy persona would excell here!

Typhoonpilot
02-19-2008, 04:52 PM
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/typhoonpilot/DWC-MAP.jpg

Typhoonpilot
02-19-2008, 04:54 PM
Question.....

Looking at your current plans for aircraft orders (based on ACP info)....
45-B777's
56-A380's
70-A350's
......your fleet is going to almost triple.
Is DXB large enough to handle all these aircrafts?
One might think you guys would have to look elsewhere for another base.


This place will help:

Dubai World Central (http://www.dwc.ae)

Typhoonpilot

KoruPilot
02-19-2008, 07:11 PM
Those profit numbers are interesting. I read an article from a couple of years ago that said the Emirates Group, which includes DNATA, made half a billion. The airline itself made significantly less however, something in the range of low millions (I'll dig up the numbers).

I know that on the Tasman EK loses money hand over fist, as the economics don't support half empty airplanes and LCC prices. We barely make money on that route, in fact this past year was the first in many that we did, and we pretty much own it with QF. So where is all that money made? Even with the claw backs you guy's do pretty well money wise flying there. When I was in Bahrain I knew some FA's and they did OK as well, plus the housing was included. I get that, out of your main base at least, your fuel costs are well below ours, but at some point, to make any profit on long haul, the airline has to win as far as yield, and yield comes from filling business and first; not backpackers in the tail. I'll get in trouble here for comparing EK to Qatar and Gulf, but they bleed money and Qatar doesn't expect any change until 2011.

Are you guy's that full on most of the routes? Are the premium seats getting filled all the time? It just appears, at times and from afar, that the Middle East airline scene is full of Sheiks trying to see who has the biggest. . .

Why mess with the pilots at all when it is very clear that they will not be able to sustain the current and projected growth, even with cut rate S American and SE Asian pilots (just cut rate price wise chaps, I'm sure you're all kickass drivers).

Philly Boy
02-19-2008, 09:38 PM
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa106/typhoonpilot/DWC-MAP.jpg

Cool...........
yeah, that wasn't on the tour.

Told ya I was ignorant........:)

Typhoonpilot
02-19-2008, 11:50 PM
Those profit numbers are interesting. I read an article from a couple of years ago that said the Emirates Group, which includes DNATA, made half a billion. The airline itself made significantly less however, something in the range of low millions (I'll dig up the numbers).

I know that on the Tasman EK loses money hand over fist, as the economics don't support half empty airplanes and LCC prices. We barely make money on that route, in fact this past year was the first in many that we did, and we pretty much own it with QF. So where is all that money made? Even with the claw backs you guy's do pretty well money wise flying there. When I was in Bahrain I knew some FA's and they did OK as well, plus the housing was included. I get that, out of your main base at least, your fuel costs are well below ours, but at some point, to make any profit on long haul, the airline has to win as far as yield, and yield comes from filling business and first; not backpackers in the tail. I'll get in trouble here for comparing EK to Qatar and Gulf, but they bleed money and Qatar doesn't expect any change until 2011.

Are you guy's that full on most of the routes? Are the premium seats getting filled all the time? It just appears, at times and from afar, that the Middle East airline scene is full of Sheiks trying to see who has the biggest. . .


Hi Koru:

In the last fiscal year Emirates' profit was $844 million while Dnata's net profit was $98 million. Breakeven load factor was 59.9% with an overall load factor of 65.1%.

Those trans-Tasman routes have very low load factos but haul a lot of cargo. It's been ahwile since I've been down that way but over 30 tonnes cargo wasn't uncommon.

Business class is full on most flights. First Class a little less so, but reasonably high percentage.

The numbers aren't fake. They have a lot of revenue from Pax, Cargo, handling, Duty Free, catering, etc.

Qatar and Etihad start a route with hoping that it will become profitable in 3 years. Emirates starts a route knowing it will be profitable within 3-6 months. That is a big difference.


TP

KoruPilot
02-20-2008, 12:04 AM
Very nice indeed, but why the heck do they think it's a good idea to mess with the pilots? I stand absolutely corrected on my numbers as well. I was thinking of an article that ran their 2003/04 numbers and I went to double check; should have done before I said anything. Profit for the period was $3.8 billion with $429 million coming from the airline. Considering QF regularly makes half a billion and our little outfit does 1/4 billion it does seam reasonable. Too bad a company like AA can't figure it out as well.

I understand that Qatar goes to KL 24 times per week. That seams like a lot to me. I knew some guy's in management at Gulf and that one is a no brainer.

So EK is nothing like Eva, but do you guy's see it going that way; staying on the downward course that it is on? Or will they have to do something to keep people, and continue to get a reasonable calibre of pilot. . . or, is it really getting that bad?

bus canuck
02-20-2008, 01:24 AM
Very nice indeed, but why the heck do they think it's a good idea to mess with the pilots?...So EK is nothing like Eva, but do you guy's see it going that way; staying on the downward course that it is on? Or will they have to do something to keep people, and continue to get a reasonable calibre of pilot. . . or, is it really getting that bad?

Very good questions.

From a broad view I've always thought EK had very good top management, i.e. President and higher, but really poor management at the VP level. I still think that's true, especially in Flight Ops, but I don't know why it's run that way. The Exec VP, Sr VP and below are driven by a Performance Management program that rewards them handsomely if they can beat budget and performance targets. Subsequently we get beat up on as the fiscal year end approaches. (March 31). For sure it's short term thinking that hurts long term planning, but there you go...


The latest changes in and of themselves are not huge, but if you stay here long enough, it's like 'death by a thousand cuts.' Each year they chip away at the pay package. (Many of us actually get as bent out of shape by the dishonest way they present these cuts as the cuts themselves.)


Will they still attract guys? They've always been very lucky in that whenever they've needed a huge influx of pilots some airline somewhere in the world shuts down. For example, when Canada 3000 shutdown, EK had 300 fully qualified pilots at its doorstep. Right now, I think they're counting on a US recession and the reported mergers to send American pilots their way. They also have another ace up the sleeve in that they can easily lower the hiring minima with no real drama and open the door to many more applicants.

Despite my occasional rants here, my family and I continue to like our life(style) and so we're staying for the next while. However, I think it's important for guys considering the move to realize that there's a lot of pretty ugly crap that goes on here and you have to either put up with it or get out. There's no 3rd choice...

Anyway, I could write a book on the subject, but there are a few thoughts and as always, I'm interested in other viewpoints.

BC

Typhoonpilot
02-20-2008, 03:53 AM
So EK is nothing like Eva, but do you guy's see it going that way; staying on the downward course that it is on? Or will they have to do something to keep people, and continue to get a reasonable calibre of pilot. . . or, is it really getting that bad?

I don't see EK going the way of EVA anytime soon because they are apples and oranges to compare in the first place. EVA has been relatively stagnant since the late 90s. Stagnation leads to a big drop in morale, opportunity, etc. EK is growing at 20% per year so there are growing pains, but still lots of opportunity. That opportunity leads one to overlook the little cuts, or at least rationalize them. If and when EK stops growing is when you can start to compare the two.


TP

Joepa84
02-26-2008, 06:04 AM
Just curious. As an Emirates pilot do you have to live in Dubai, or could you live in another country and commute? Have you ever flown with anyone who does this? Thanks.

Typhoonpilot
02-26-2008, 11:00 AM
Just curious. As an Emirates pilot do you have to live in Dubai, or could you live in another country and commute? Have you ever flown with anyone who does this? Thanks.


Emirates is not a commuting job.



TP

sophia1997
02-26-2008, 11:36 AM
Hi Typhoonpilot, I just got an offer from EK in the A310. My background in in pax service, but for the past year I have been flying 727-200F's in ACMI service in the US. I wanted to get back into passenger service, and I was hoping you could shed some light on whether I would be stuck on the cargo side of EK if I accept the job. Best Regards, Sophia1997

Typhoonpilot
02-27-2008, 07:57 AM
Hi Typhoonpilot, I just got an offer from EK in the A310. My background in in pax service, but for the past year I have been flying 727-200F's in ACMI service in the US. I wanted to get back into passenger service, and I was hoping you could shed some light on whether I would be stuck on the cargo side of EK if I accept the job. Best Regards, Sophia1997


Congratulations on the job offer. The present policy for the A310 fleet is that you get to bid off after 3 years. Alternatively you can stay on type and upgrade. In which case the three year clock gets reset. Lately they have been letting guys off before the 3 year mark, but it's better to make the decision to come based on a 3 year commitment to the A310. Hope that helps.


TP

sophia1997
02-27-2008, 12:33 PM
Thanks a lot for your reply. I assume it would be a bad idea to email the HR specialist and inquire about an A330 or 777 class instead, even if I had to come sooner? It is my impression that the class assignments are not negotiable, without regard to personal preferences and solely driven by the company's needs at the time of hire. I don't want to jeopardize my job opportunity by making a mistake at this late date, so any further insight you may provide would be most welcome. Best Regards, Sophia1997

Sioux115
02-27-2008, 02:00 PM
This brings up a good question. Maybe it has already been covered, but what is life like on the A310? That hadn't even crossed my mind as being an option.

Typhoonpilot
02-28-2008, 02:39 PM
Thanks a lot for your reply. I assume it would be a bad idea to email the HR specialist and inquire about an A330 or 777 class instead, even if I had to come sooner? It is my impression that the class assignments are not negotiable, without regard to personal preferences and solely driven by the company's needs at the time of hire. I don't want to jeopardize my job opportunity by making a mistake at this late date, so any further insight you may provide would be most welcome. Best Regards, Sophia1997


Actually, what you might do is send the e-mail saying you are available for a sooner class date without making any mention of the type aircraft. If they need a body in an earlier class it could get you out of the A310 and into one of the other two types. Just make sure you are actually available for an earlier class.


TP

Typhoonpilot
02-28-2008, 02:41 PM
This brings up a good question. Maybe it has already been covered, but what is life like on the A310? That hadn't even crossed my mind as being an option.



Life on the A310 isn't that bad. They are a small group and tend to take care of each other. Trips vary from local turns to longer specialized cargo flights to the USA, Pacific, as well as some other interesting places that the pax fleet doesn't go to. Barcelona being a good example.


TP

shogun
02-28-2008, 05:00 PM
How many 310 do they have?

sunnfun
02-28-2008, 06:01 PM
How many 310 do they have?

AFAIK they have three A310F they operate themselves. All the other flying (747F) is being wetleased from Atlas and TNT.

HTH,
Sun'n Fun

767200
02-28-2008, 07:30 PM
Someone on another thread brought the subject of background checks on US pilots. Does anybody know what's involved (besides from checking your referees)? Is it PRIA type (can my company here even release that information to a foreign carrier?).Just curious. Thanks!

the turtle
02-28-2008, 10:57 PM
All EK did with me is check my refs. They ask you to provide them with original letters from the FAA stating your validity of license/ratings/medical class and one from your employer verifying your times, once you join.

Since one of your references is someone in management from your current employer, they pretty much ask the questions contained in PRIA, anyway.

Flyn2low
03-29-2008, 01:21 PM
Heard they lowered their mins to 3500 to apply...still gotta have the 4000 to be hired though. What are they hiring into?

sunnfun
03-29-2008, 04:55 PM
Heard they lowered their mins to 3500 to apply...still gotta have the 4000 to be hired though. What are they hiring into?

Boeing 777 and Airbus 330.