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View Full Version : Trans States Furloughing


Time2Fly
06-10-2008, 11:25 AM
...Just got the call.

Trans States will be Furloughing 45 Pilots effective July 1st


CRJDriver
06-10-2008, 11:30 AM
Damn! That sucks! I wish you and everyone else the best of luck. If you want to get in again, we are hiring at Comair, so if there is anything I can do, let me know!

Airsupport
06-10-2008, 11:35 AM
ffs..
and one more for min post count

ffs..


Time2Fly
06-10-2008, 11:36 AM
ffs..
and one more for min post count

ffs..

sorry, what is ffs?

Airsupport
06-10-2008, 11:39 AM
http://www.urbandictionary.com/

look it up there.

disclaimer it may lead to foul language.

AV8ER
06-10-2008, 11:44 AM
Man guys...that sucks. I just got the downgrade here...don't come back to this craphole. Nothing good will come of coming back...go get an interview at one of the regionals that are hiring, even though there aren't a lot. Or better yet, get out of this horrendous industry.

TBucket
06-10-2008, 11:47 AM
This freaking blows... And they just spent all week junioring captains like crazy to staff their flights... I can imagine the furlough will work about as well as the downgrade has... Idiots...

Mossy
06-10-2008, 11:50 AM
bad news for all of us at tsa. start putting in those grad school apps.

Short Bus Drive
06-10-2008, 11:56 AM
...Just got the call.

Trans States will be Furloughing 45 Pilots effective July 1st

No "30 day notice" ? :confused:

AV8ER
06-10-2008, 11:58 AM
Last I heard, not only are they not furloughing, they're hiring...sounds familiar, eh?

flynavyj
06-10-2008, 12:23 PM
hiring...and street captains at that....bad times over here, hopefully, it won't last long...but you never know.

reevesofskyking
06-10-2008, 12:41 PM
I thought it was a company bluff to get a cheap contract out of us.

Sorry to those 45 that got it, hang in there

Salukipilot4590
06-10-2008, 01:05 PM
Sitting AR right now and I havent got the call yet...I think I might be 47 from the bottom...I'll wait and see for now.

I feel like crap for everyone...

ScaryKite
06-10-2008, 01:29 PM
hiring...and street captains at that....bad times over here, hopefully, it won't last long...but you never know.


i just threw up in my mouth! I'd like to extend a good luck to everyone at TSA! I hope things work out for you.

bryris
06-10-2008, 01:31 PM
It certainly is a thankless career isn't it?

If the number is only 45, the good news it could be worse really. 70-80 was the number floating around a month ago. We all knew this was going to happen so it isn't really a huge surprise.

grossole
06-10-2008, 01:37 PM
this is bad news for all at tsa. if any of the 45 need anything, let me know... message me or call me if i've flown with you.

Golden Child
06-10-2008, 01:38 PM
Here we go again. I was one of those furloughed, and they called to tell me right after one of the flight managers finished swearing to me that they were not going to. Oh well, who's hiring? I heard a lot going around about how ALPA thought management had learned it's lesson after the last furlough...

Golden Child
06-10-2008, 01:41 PM
It certainly is a thankless career isn't it?

If the number is only 45, the good news it could be worse really. 70-80 was the number floating around a month ago. We all knew this was going to happen so it isn't really a huge surprise.

The 70 went down to 45 after ALPA was able to get 20 voluntary furloughs to those willing. I heard this from our Onion MEC. Could there be a few more coming down the wire? How's our US Air flying?

bryris
06-10-2008, 01:45 PM
Did any RIC Fos get the boot?

usmc-sgt
06-10-2008, 01:51 PM
If any of you are CFIs in the MA area shoot me a PM I may be able to help you out or i know my airline is looking as well for a few bodies which is better than not working. Shoot me a PM if I can help some of you guys out.

Koolaidman
06-10-2008, 02:40 PM
TSA furloughing was the best thing that happened to me. I got out before getting furloughed back in 2006 and couldn't be happier. I believe out of the 48 furloughed back in 2006, 13 or so came back? Not sure of the actual number, but there weren't many who returned.

I am definitely sorry to hear about those who were furloughed, but try to make the best of it by finding a better place to work. I was happy at Trans States, but that was because I didn't have anything to compare it to. Ask anyone who has left and gone elsewhere how they feel now and it should hopefully make you feel better.

We had one guy who got furloughed and went to gojet. I saw him the other day as a CA and I still feel dirty for being cordial and saying hi.

TBucket
06-10-2008, 04:08 PM
I haven't heard anything about how it went as far as how many from RIC-STL, but I know RIC had a TON of reserves this last month, so I doubt it will go well for them...

bryris
06-10-2008, 04:21 PM
I haven't heard anything about how it went as far as how many from RIC-STL, but I know RIC had a TON of reserves this last month, so I doubt it will go well for them...

Well 45 between both bases might fall somewhere like 15/30 or so, that'll drop the STL FO list back to about 150 or so, that is still pretty good and more in line with where its been the last year or so.

172capt
06-10-2008, 04:23 PM
I hear GO Jets is hiring.....

Salukipilot4590
06-10-2008, 04:25 PM
I hear GO Jets is hiring.....

Tell me about it...

A10crewdawg
06-10-2008, 04:26 PM
I hear Kwik Trip pays more. 40k starting managers with benies

nathanexplosion
06-10-2008, 04:40 PM
Here we go again. I was one of those furloughed, and they called to tell me right after one of the flight managers finished swearing to me that they were not going to. Oh well, who's hiring? I heard a lot going around about how ALPA thought management had learned it's lesson after the last furlough...

There might be more hiring going on out there than you think. There are still some job opening left in the US (although a lot of them may be places you've never heard of), and internationally there are quite a few opportunities if you're willing to go "outside the box".

There's a good job search tool here:
http://www.******************/Airline_Pilot_Jobs.php

Input your flight times and it will give you a list of companies you meet the minimums for inside and outside the US.

TimSmith
06-10-2008, 04:40 PM
TSA furloughing was the best thing that happened to me. I got out before getting furloughed back in 2006 and couldn't be happier. I believe out of the 48 furloughed back in 2006, 13 or so came back? Not sure of the actual number, but there weren't many who returned.

I am definitely sorry to hear about those who were furloughed, but try to make the best of it by finding a better place to work. I was happy at Trans States, but that was because I didn't have anything to compare it to. Ask anyone who has left and gone elsewhere how they feel now and it should hopefully make you feel better.

We had one guy who got furloughed and went to gojet. I saw him the other day as a CA and I still feel dirty for being cordial and saying hi.

Now this is funny...a SKW guy talking trash about GoJet, a non-union airline undercutting the rest of the industry.:rolleyes:

cfii2007
06-10-2008, 04:57 PM
There might be more hiring going on out there than you think. There are still some job opening left in the US (although a lot of them may be places you've never heard of), and internationally there are quite a few opportunities if you're willing to go "outside the box".

There's a good job search tool here:
http://www.******************/Airline_Pilot_Jobs.php

Input your flight times and it will give you a list of companies you meet the minimums for inside and outside the US.

You said "tool".............

145mule
06-10-2008, 05:23 PM
I hear GO Jets is hiring.....

I got the furlough notice today... And knowing that GoJet is still hiring makes this harder to swallow.

For the others that got the notice today- Did you find the phone call to be cold?

My mentor told me that you are not a true airline pilot until you have been furloughed, gone on strike, and survived a bankruptcy. One down....two to go.

Flyboy8784
06-10-2008, 05:33 PM
All I can say to those new hires....As tempting as it may be to have a job....PLEASE for the love of all things Holy.....DO NOT GO TO GOJETS!!!!

Im sure most of you are educated enough about them....they arent doing you any favors. Things will get better.....eventually

cbram
06-10-2008, 05:43 PM
Now this is funny...a SKW guy talking trash about GoJet, a non-union airline undercutting the rest of the industry.:rolleyes:


What kind of b.s. remark is this?

coldpilot
06-10-2008, 05:45 PM
I got the furlough notice today... And knowing that GoJet is still hiring makes this harder to swallow.

For the others that got the notice today- Did you find the phone call to be cold?

My mentor told me that you are not a true airline pilot until you have been furloughed, gone on strike, and survived a bankruptcy. One down....two to go.

Don't forget divorced. You have to be divorced too ;)

Best of luck to all of you at TSA. I'm looking at hearing the F-word soon too.

WhiteH2O
06-10-2008, 05:57 PM
Best of luck to all of you at TSA. I'm looking at hearing the F-word soon too.

I heard through the grape vine yesterday that I should expect an f-word letter next month for a f-word to start in September. This will be my second f-word in a year. Yay for me. Yay for all of us.

According to www.****************** I am eligable for a few jobs based in India or China. Although I have been through quite a few indocs lately, and I might be up for a break from the industry for a while.

coldpilot
06-10-2008, 06:07 PM
I heard through the grape vine yesterday that I should expect an f-word letter next month for a f-word to start in September. This will be my second f-word in a year. Yay for me. Yay for all of us.

According to www.****************** I am eligable for a few jobs based in India or China. Although I have been through quite a few indocs lately, and I might be up for a break from the industry for a while.

Are you S.O.? On the SAAB at Eagle?

stillageek
06-10-2008, 06:33 PM
A little off topic but I heard TSA was TDY'ing guys from STL to MIA since AA has a new TSA "base" in MIA now. This true ? TDYing is $$$$ paying for hotels 24/7 plus per diem.

bryris
06-10-2008, 06:46 PM
There is another closed thread on this board saying "with more to come in the following weeks". Are they seriously considering more or is this just rumor?

reevesofskyking
06-10-2008, 06:54 PM
They will not know what to do next until the can observe the pilot group squirm around, then they will make another quick move that will be boneheaded in nature.
I would just wait and see how this pony rolls down the hill.

To be honest, I was hoping this was managments way to call our bluff in contract talks. I was way wrong on that.

kalymnos
06-10-2008, 07:06 PM
I find it funny that no one sees this as a blessing in disguise, when one door closes another opens...

bryris
06-10-2008, 07:26 PM
I find it funny that no one sees this as a blessing in disguise, when one door closes another opens...

People like to make their own choices, not be forced out. If I thought I could find a truly better place (considering many factors), I'd do it in a heartbeat on a voluntary basis. Getting a furlough is rarely a blessing. Sure you can make the most of it.

TBucket
06-10-2008, 07:41 PM
A little off topic but I heard TSA was TDY'ing guys from STL to MIA since AA has a new TSA "base" in MIA now. This true ? TDYing is $$$$ paying for hotels 24/7 plus per diem.


They were shipping STL captains out to RIC to sit hotel reserve 'cause of the downgrades, but all the MIA flying is done out of the st. louis base...

Short Bus Drive
06-10-2008, 09:56 PM
I got the furlough notice today... And knowing that GoJet is still hiring makes this harder to swallow.

For the others that got the notice today- Did you find the phone call to be cold?

My mentor told me that you are not a true airline pilot until you have been furloughed, gone on strike, and survived a bankruptcy. One down....two to go.

don't forget a divorce!!!!

TheOak
06-10-2008, 11:26 PM
I know the upcoming ALPA outing was probably planned way out in advance, and is appreciated, but pretty ironic it fell on this week.

ALPA: You just got furloughed, what are you going to do now?

Furloughed guy: "I'm Fuggin going to Six Flags, Btch! WOOoo"


God bless, you guys.

RuttR
06-11-2008, 12:01 AM
One moment they're short (capts, that is) and denying temporary leaves of absence because the "received enough", and now they furlough. I don't get it :confused: The company picnic is coming up and I doubt they'll run out of food.

Short Bus Drive
06-11-2008, 12:03 AM
I know the upcoming ALPA outing was probably planned way out in advance, and is appreciated, but pretty ironic it fell on this week.

ALPA: You just got furloughed, what are you going to do now?

Furloughed guy: "I'm Fuggin going to Six Flags, Btch! WOOoo"


God bless, you guys.

THAT"S FUNNY!!!!:D

mrmak2
06-11-2008, 04:15 AM
For the 45 gettig furloughed, what is the DOH range- is it people hired in the last couple months or a year? Just wondering

RiddleEagle18
06-11-2008, 04:44 AM
Im sure it has already been said but Comair is hiring 50 pilots a month right now. We would love to have any TSA furloughed guys(or any TSA guys for that matter) come over. Send me a PM and I will gladly forward your resume to our HR staff.

172capt
06-11-2008, 06:05 AM
Im sure it has already been said but Comair is hiring 50 pilots a month right now. We would love to have any TSA furloughed guys(or any TSA guys for that matter) come over. Send me a PM and I will gladly forward your resume to our HR staff.

Will they be required to show up with a backpack, IPOD, and spiked hair?

Paok
06-11-2008, 06:10 AM
Will they be required to show up with a backpack, IPOD, and spiked hair?

Funny thing is i I saw this the other day........ on an A320 captain :rolleyes: ps he had cool raybans too

Stew75
06-11-2008, 06:31 AM
I believe it was from January/February class of this year was the most senior guys so only a couple of months.

WhiteH2O
06-11-2008, 07:52 AM
Are you S.O.? On the SAAB at Eagle?

West Coast based Q400 guy.

The Juice
06-11-2008, 08:29 AM
My mentor told me that you are not a true airline pilot until you have been furloughed, gone on strike, and survived a bankruptcy. One down....two to go.

You forgot "been divorced" on your Airline Pilot Checklist

Time2Fly
06-11-2008, 08:54 AM
Don't forget divorced. You have to be divorced too ;)

Best of luck to all of you at TSA. I'm looking at hearing the F-word soon too.

don't forget a divorce!!!!

You forgot "been divorced" on your Airline Pilot Checklist


Once was enough.....

Stew75
06-11-2008, 09:27 AM
Guys are getting juniored and they furlough. that is how you celebrate your 25th aniversary. classic

Pilotpip
06-11-2008, 09:43 AM
25 years of Excellence.

I really hope you guys aren't on the streets too long, it could be a blessing in disguise. I left a decent seniority number in January and haven't looked back.

U-I pilot
06-11-2008, 12:38 PM
wow, furlough notice by phone?!? TSA is really turning into the likes of a bad gf..... at least in 2006 they had the decency to do it in person......Bah.....still sucks for you guys.....

As others have said though, most (me included) from the 2006 group went on to MUCH greener pastures. This could be a good thing in disguise. Keep your head up, find some options and good luck.

And as for the numbers, I heard in 2006 there were 60 of us overall affected, and I think it was 10 or less that went back. Half of my TSA class and the class before me ended up at XJT. TSA will likely be hiring again by September/October ...... Mark my words.

IQuitEagle
06-11-2008, 12:44 PM
What is leading to these furloughs? Are you guys parking planes or something? And not to open a can of worms here, but isn't the MIA flying additional flying for you guys? Where will they get the staffing?

AV8ER
06-11-2008, 12:51 PM
No, I don't think MIA is much additional. I believe its only a few round trips a day, and we've had some stl stuff reduced. And why are we furloughing??? Who knows...I guess they've been junioring quite a bit the last few weeks. Makes sense huh?

Golden Child
06-11-2008, 01:04 PM
The most senior guy furloughed was a January hire. I'm kinda stuck because I commute from ONT and am still low time. I gave thought to getting a normal job to pay off debt and riding it out until I get the call. Unless Colgan on the Q is a possibility.

BURflyer
06-11-2008, 01:06 PM
I was one of the 45 called yesterday. They're saying this furlough might take up to a year. Already been talking to my classmates and others in later classes, pretty much everybody is not planning on coming back if this lasts more than a few months. Oddly enough some are happy about the furloughs because they got the multi time needed for Skywest. I think Skywest will be pretty competitive the next few months if it isn't already.

Stew75
06-11-2008, 01:06 PM
the mia is a little more but I thought there was supposed to be more united flying over the summer also. many are saying it is because of contract negotioations also

POPA
06-12-2008, 06:58 PM
Well, it took longer than I expected...

P-51D
06-12-2008, 10:50 PM
That's really too bad. best of luck to you all.

TrevorW
06-13-2008, 08:06 AM
Best of luck, hope you all recover quickly.

Foxcow
06-13-2008, 08:40 AM
We are already canceling flights due to lack of crew (CAs). I wonder how bad it will be in July. $5 says this comes back to bite us.

flyinaway411
06-13-2008, 11:47 AM
their such morons! i'm a downgraded captain flying in the right seat. day two of my four day, my captain gets pulled off our pairing for a "re-route" to richmond because we are short on captain. they cancel the flight we were supposed to do. do you know how frustrating that is? i know the union can't say or advertise not to pick up open time, but we need to send these idiots a message. i really hope for the sake of the whole pilot group that nobody picks up open time. of course this will lead to lots of JAing, but atleast then they'll have to pay us premium. this is ridiculous.

BURflyer
06-13-2008, 12:05 PM
their such morons! i'm a downgraded captain flying in the right seat. day two of my four day, my captain gets pulled off our pairing for a "re-route" to richmond because we are short on captain. they cancel the flight we were supposed to do. do you know how frustrating that is? i know the union can't say or advertise not to pick up open time, but we need to send these idiots a message. i really hope for the sake of the whole pilot group that nobody picks up open time. of course this will lead to lots of JAing, but atleast then they'll have to pay us premium. this is ridiculous.

Yes, CAs, FOs don't pickup open time.

flynavyj
06-13-2008, 01:04 PM
Open time? We have open time? Thats odd... ever since i heard an announcement of downgrades, my memory has been slipping, and i can't seem to recall how to open FLICA and pick any of it up...oh shucks, i guess i'll just let scheduling do as they wish to me...let them build me an efficient schedule, as opposed to building one myself.

Atreyu
06-13-2008, 01:21 PM
it's funny how as a negotiating tactic, the company can furlough and downgrade, but the pilot group can't slow down and not pick up open time because that's illegal.

YAY RLA!!!!

SaltyDog
06-13-2008, 01:47 PM
it's funny how as a negotiating tactic, the company can furlough and downgrade, but the pilot group can't slow down and not pick up open time because that's illegal.

YAY RLA!!!!

Not illegal according to RLA, unless TSA in contract talks. If in talks, no one (including company) are allowed to change "status quo".

Atreyu
06-13-2008, 01:50 PM
Not illegal according to RLA, unless TSA in contract talks. If in talks, no one (including company) are allowed to change "status quo".
we've been in contract talks for about 2 years already.

let's just say we have negative reserve coverage in Richmond and we downgraded 11 captains in each domicile

Mason32
06-13-2008, 06:01 PM
You can not be forced to pick up VOLUNTARY overtime. It does not matter what the statistical staus quo was, or is. You are free to obtain a side job instead of working open time, or your financial situation may have changed and you no longer need to work as much open time.

Pilotpip
06-13-2008, 06:23 PM
Guys, fly the contract. Nothing more, nothing less.

You'd think they learned their lesson in 2006. Apparently two years is a little too long for these morons.

ExperimentalAB
06-13-2008, 06:33 PM
Hope it bites 'em where it hurts...

cbire880
06-13-2008, 06:47 PM
You can not be forced to pick up VOLUNTARY overtime. It does not matter what the statistical staus quo was, or is. You are free to obtain a side job instead of working open time, or your financial situation may have changed and you no longer need to work as much open time.

The RLA problem comes in when the union organizes an effort to not perform voluntary overtime. Individuals can do as they please, but the collective bargaining unit can't organize an effort against the status quo.

jedinein
06-13-2008, 08:15 PM
ALPA: You just got furloughed, what are you going to do now?

Furloughed guy: "I'm Fuggin going to Six Flags, Btch! WOOoo"

I'll have to remember that when I get the f-call. :D

TBucket
06-13-2008, 08:52 PM
Open time? You're kidding me. Hell, most of the time I don't even get to fly what's on my schedule..

Mason32
06-14-2008, 05:36 AM
The RLA problem comes in when the union organizes an effort to not perform voluntary overtime. Individuals can do as they please, but the collective bargaining unit can't organize an effort against the status quo.


Agreed to a point. The union can not "ORGANIZE" a JOB ACTION. That being said, there is nothing that says a union can not email, snail mail, or communicate with their members reminding them that open time is volutary. This in fact happens fairly often.

The company knows that when push comes to shove, if it ever ended up in front of a judge, the primary issues are such that the company can not win. But, they can make the union spend a ton of money defending against a claim.

rickair7777
06-15-2008, 01:08 PM
Agreed to a point. The union can not "ORGANIZE" a JOB ACTION. That being said, there is nothing that says a union can not email, snail mail, or communicate with their members reminding them that open time is volutary. This in fact happens fairly often.

The company knows that when push comes to shove, if it ever ended up in front of a judge, the primary issues are such that the company can not win. But, they can make the union spend a ton of money defending against a claim.

Not entirely correct...

In the past, unions have been held legally liable for ANY "job action"...whether it is a strike, slowdown, sick-out, work-to-rules, etc. APA ended up owing AA managemnet millions over something like this :eek:

Basically, any change in established labor behavior which negatively impacts manegement and can be shown to have been organized in any fashion, by anyone, will be blamed on the union.

Basically the union is held responsible for not only not instigating illegal actions, but also for PREVENTING them.

A union could get off the hook if it can show that it did not instigate the action, and tried to stop it (by warning members). But it is almost guilty until proven innocent in these cases because it is assumed that it DOES control it's members actions in any labor context.

This is why unions are generally down on unofficial actions.

Now if everbody just decides not to pick up open time, that's great as long as the company can't dig up an email campaign, or other organizing effort. Even a posting on APC or FI would count as organization.

This is your United States Railway Labor Act in action...

jedinein
06-15-2008, 02:12 PM
Umm, what airline were we talking 'bout again? I can think of three in the same situation.

bustinmins
06-15-2008, 11:26 PM
Best of luck to all who will be hurt in this furlough. To the downgrades, I feel your pain. Even the cargo haulers are realigning (mgt word for: downgrading) many pilots.

AirWillie
06-16-2008, 10:34 PM
Does TSA allow you to keep your seniority while working at a different airline? Or when you get hired you have to take yourself out of the "waiting list"?

jaded
06-17-2008, 08:03 AM
Does TSA allow you to keep your seniority while working at a different airline? Or when you get hired you have to take yourself out of the "waiting list"?

I believe you keep your seniority, but some airlines like skywest want you to give up your seniority from another airline once you get hired by them.

Confused
06-17-2008, 11:22 AM
I dont know if Skywest does that actually. I was on a United jumpseat one day and the FO was furloughed after 9/11 and spent a few years at Skywest waiting to come back. May be a different policy now though.

Mossy
06-17-2008, 11:58 AM
the best part is no one in scheduling thinks that we'll have enough fo's or ca's to cover everything next month.

Foxcow
06-17-2008, 11:59 AM
I really hope that nobody is picking up open time...

bender
06-17-2008, 12:09 PM
I believe you keep your seniority, but some airlines like skywest want you to give up your seniority from another airline once you get hired by them.

That's absolutely incorrect. SkyWest allows you to keep it. I know this because I actually work for them.

SeamusTheHound
06-17-2008, 12:42 PM
I dont know if Skywest does that actually. I was on a United jumpseat one day and the FO was furloughed after 9/11 and spent a few years at Skywest waiting to come back. May be a different policy now though.
An airline cannot "FORCE" you to give up anything at another company. They have NO business interfering with your relationship with your other company and cannot force the other company to DENY you your seniority rights.

Besides, the company you are leaving can choose to ignore any "resignation" letter that a new outfit tells you to send. They are not bound by any obligation to your new employer.

Your best bet is to talk to your present employer and get confirmation (preferably in writing) about what your rights are if and when you want to come back. This agreement is NONE of your new employer's business and they are not entitled to interfere with such an agreement between you and your old boss. DON'T let them tell you otherwise.

rickair7777
06-17-2008, 01:44 PM
An airline cannot "FORCE" you to give up anything at another company. They have NO business interfering with your relationship with your other company and cannot force the other company to DENY you your seniority rights.

Besides, the company you are leaving can choose to ignore any "resignation" letter that a new outfit tells you to send. They are not bound by any obligation to your new employer.

Your best bet is to talk to your present employer and get confirmation (preferably in writing) about what your rights are if and when you want to come back. This agreement is NONE of your new employer's business and they are not entitled to interfere with such an agreement between you and your old boss. DON'T let them tell you otherwise.

This is generally correct, and I'm with you 100% philosophically, however...

There is no federal law that I am aware of (unless the recent integration bill had language to this effect), so you might end up are relying on the courts.

In the past it was common for a hiring airline to require that you sign a letter giving up your seniority from the furlough airline...the hiring airline would then mail the letter for you :eek:

Some mainline folks sued someone and won, which set a precedent so that fewer airlines will try to do that now. But a few might still require it, because it doesn't cost them anything. The lawsuit in question was against the furlough airline (which ended up taking the pilots back), not the hiring airline. The point of law was that the resignation had been under duress, and was not valid.

What is fair and right is one thing, but if you actually resign your seniority at a furlough airline you might need a lawyer to get it back. Something to keep in mind.

rickair7777
06-17-2008, 01:49 PM
The RLA problem comes in when the union organizes an effort to not perform voluntary overtime. Individuals can do as they please, but the collective bargaining unit can't organize an effort against the status quo.

This is correct. Also, in a union shop ANY organizing effort will be assumed to be the union's responsibility whether the union or a rogue group of pilots actually did it...they actually have an obligation to stop illegal actions. Otherwise the courts will nail them (AA vs APA).

TBucket
06-17-2008, 02:26 PM
the best part is no one in scheduling thinks that we'll have enough fo's or ca's to cover everything next month.

They already don't have enough captains... I can imagine they will furlough to the same staffing level on FO's... They were junioring captains like crazy this month, and I only see that getting worse.

I'll laugh when they start cancelling flights due to not being able to find any pilots...

(And hell no, no open time...)

SeamusTheHound
06-18-2008, 08:14 AM
From basic contract law principles:

You are right, the lawsuit was by the hiring airline against the furloughing airline. The hiring airline lost because they could not make a case that the furloughing airline was a party to any agreement with the hiring airline, thus the hiring airline could not claim damages against an un-involved third party.

This stems from the contractual principle of 'privity of contract', meaning those whose legal rights are affected at the time the agreement is made, and those who would therefore agree to be bound by the contract.

The hiring airlines requested that pilots withdraw their seniority at the former (furloughing) airline. That is an agreement between the pilot and the hiring airline.

The furloughing airline has the choice about whether or not it will choose to acknowledge the pilot's withdrawal of seniority. This choice is completely independent from the hiring airline; it involves only an agreement between the pilot and the furloughing airline.

The hiring airline could take action against the pilot for creating the impression that he has withdrawn his seniority, when, in actuality he has not. This would be a breach of the agreement between the pilot and the hiring airline.

It has nothing to do with any agreement between the hiring airline and furloughing airline. They have no contract between them, and the hiring airline has no privity of contract between the pilot and the furloughing airline. They are simply not a party to that agreement.


This is generally correct, and I'm with you 100% philosophically, however...

There is no federal law that I am aware of (unless the recent integration bill had language to this effect), so you might end up are relying on the courts.

In the past it was common for a hiring airline to require that you sign a letter giving up your seniority from the furlough airline...the hiring airline would then mail the letter for you

Some mainline folks sued someone and won, which set a precedent so that fewer airlines will try to do that now. But a few might still require it, because it doesn't cost them anything. The lawsuit in question was against the furlough airline (which ended up taking the pilots back), not the hiring airline. The point of law was that the resignation had been under duress, and was not valid.

What is fair and right is one thing, but if you actually resign your seniority at a furlough airline you might need a lawyer to get it back. Something to keep in mind.

meeko031
06-18-2008, 10:21 AM
I really hope that nobody is picking up open time...


What's the deal with OT? Not only in TSA but here where I work, people seem to B*tch at people(mainly FOs) that pick up ot....

Pilotpip
06-18-2008, 10:36 AM
Pretty simple. If they are so short staffed that they need open time to make up for their shortcommings they shouldn't be furloughing.

If there are pilots from your airline on the street, you should NEVER pick up extra time. The few extra bucks you're making comes at the expense of their job.

Stew75
06-18-2008, 12:14 PM
for July FOs there are over 120 lines and 20 reserves so that should be interesting

Salukipilot4590
06-18-2008, 01:09 PM
Yay for being the absolute last man on the bid packet! Ugh...

Pilotpip
06-18-2008, 01:36 PM
Yay for being the absolute last man on the bid packet! Ugh...

I see lots of time in the C concourse in your future. At least you guys have a nicer crew lounge now.

flynavyj
06-20-2008, 05:47 AM
I see lots of time in the C concourse in your future. At least you guys have a nicer crew lounge now.

Tru Dat,

On that open time note, if TSA is using open time to fill in for it's lack of people (as stated previously) and, im a captain say towards the bottom of the list, What would happen when i pick up the open time, is that some bean counter says "hmmmm, looks like we have enough pilots to cover the amount of flying we've got" and a phone call comes telling me i'm an FO for next month....and I've even put MYSELF out of a job...bad deal.

BURflyer
06-20-2008, 06:56 AM
Tru Dat,

On that open time note, if TSA is using open time to fill in for it's lack of people (as stated previously) and, im a captain say towards the bottom of the list, What would happen when i pick up the open time, is that some bean counter says "hmmmm, looks like we have enough pilots to cover the amount of flying we've got" and a phone call comes telling me i'm an FO for next month....and I've even put MYSELF out of a job...bad deal.

Yea but then they'd have to pay you 3 times as much vs. recalling someone. Don't pick up open time, especially when you've got fellow pilots on the street.

homelessguy1
06-20-2008, 10:54 AM
No one will be able to pick up open time anyways because a lot of the lines are close to 95hrs anyways for next month.

ExperimentalAB
06-20-2008, 11:27 AM
No one will be able to pick up open time anyways because a lot of the lines are close to 95hrs anyways for next month.

How many days off on average?

Pilotpip
06-20-2008, 11:50 AM
Min of course.

ExperimentalAB
06-20-2008, 11:55 AM
Ouch...sucks for those F'd and those still at work :eek:

Mossy
06-20-2008, 12:05 PM
i've been here a year now and i'll only get 13 off. woopie. i love flying 5-6 days in a row.....

grossole
06-20-2008, 12:20 PM
Min of course.

Yes. Absolutely. EVERYONE gets 11 days off.

Actually all but two FO lines have 12 or more.

Foxcow
06-20-2008, 12:31 PM
There is no point in using flica either. Automated my ass...

Pilotpip
06-20-2008, 01:14 PM
I can't wait to see what happens after a couple days of storms at ORD causing crews to time out.

Good luck friends.

Stew75
06-21-2008, 10:09 AM
don't forget reserves only get 10 days off and I am sure they will be asking us to work on those days as well.

Lighteningspeed
06-21-2008, 10:39 AM
...Just got the call.

Trans States will be Furloughing 45 Pilots effective July 1st

There are regionals that will hire you guys if you have the hours. ie. Mesaba Director of Ops said they will be hiring 40 into the pool and starting September through October they will hire another 50 to 60 pilots. If you have prior 121 hours, your chances are very good you will get the interview. After that it's all up to you.
All future hiring will most likely go into CRJ900s or CRJ200s. Most seats are in the CRJ900 FOs because the Saabs are staffed full at the moment.

Airtran717
06-21-2008, 10:51 AM
I was at Trans States for 7 years. 3 on the J-41 and the rest on the burrito burner. I never, NEVER, had more than 13 days off.

Get use to it. That is the way it has been there for years. The only thing good about working at TSA (not The TSA) is that it forces you to keep your resume current!

Good luck!:confused:

ExperimentalAB
06-21-2008, 11:02 AM
I'm a very junior lineholder in a Western base...awarded 17 off for July. Normally I can expect 16!

flynavyj
06-21-2008, 12:11 PM
I'm a very junior lineholder in a Western base...awarded 17 off for July. Normally I can expect 16!

Yeh, you're not going to see that type of schedule as a junior line holder at TSA...half a year ago, things were a little different, a junior line holder was a guy who was completing IOE, this while my friends at other regionals were still sitting reserve after 6-12 months. Think when i was senior as an FO, i saw 15-16 days off....could guarentee 14, but normally wouldn't even bid lines less than 15. But took almost a year to get to that point.

ExperimentalAB
06-21-2008, 12:31 PM
Yeh, you're not going to see that type of schedule as a junior line holder at TSA...half a year ago, things were a little different, a junior line holder was a guy who was completing IOE, this while my friends at other regionals were still sitting reserve after 6-12 months. Think when i was senior as an FO, i saw 15-16 days off....could guarentee 14, but normally wouldn't even bid lines less than 15. But took almost a year to get to that point.

Well it is soon getting to the point where I'd be more than happy to get the min 10 days off if it meant I would still have a job in six months...This business just isn't what I had imagined LoL

But in all seriousness...it's a war-zone. Who is going to get sniped next? Who's company is going to hit a land-mine? :mad:

Mason32
06-21-2008, 04:08 PM
it probably won't help matters either when AMR takes their ten 145's back.

boilerpilot
06-21-2008, 05:55 PM
it probably won't help matters either when AMR takes their ten 145's back.

So people are losing their jobs and you make snide remarks? Would you like it if Eagle started furloughing and somebody said "yeah, and it's REALLY gonna suck when AMR sells Eagle". TSA didn't gain any flying out of MIA, so if AMR takes them out of MIA, they have to re-bolster the flying out of STL in order not to breach their contract.

flynavyj
06-21-2008, 09:41 PM
contracts are written on toilet paper, it's the good charmin stuff, but still, in the end, all managements do is wipe their rears with it...

TheOak
06-21-2008, 10:05 PM
Lets all meet in some field or street alley and fight it out mano y mano. Losers boycott whatever city we're fighting about (I obviously really care).
then afterwards throw back some beers together and laugh at how Jimmy got worked.
I know we're outnumbered, but I bet our 300 or so in St. Louis are tough as ****.
two rules: we won't touch your hair as long as you don't grab our balls.

p.s. i have nothing against eagle or its pilots... just drama queens

flyinaway411
06-21-2008, 10:34 PM
it probably won't help matters either when AMR takes their ten 145's back.

there is another thread for this crap, keep it over there, will ya...

and fwiw as far as the days off, i did the big sin of forgetting to bid this month and still got a schedule with 16 days off. of course they'll probably try to ja me 5 of those.

Martinop
06-21-2008, 11:10 PM
Good for you man :) Be well

tpersuit
06-22-2008, 12:58 AM
So people are losing their jobs and you make snide remarks? Would you like it if Eagle started furloughing and somebody said "yeah, and it's REALLY gonna suck when AMR sells Eagle". TSA didn't gain any flying out of MIA, so if AMR takes them out of MIA, they have to re-bolster the flying out of STL in order not to breach their contract.

I'm with the American Eagle guys on this one. "American Airlines" ... "American Eagle", I would think they are the only ones that should be doing that flying. Outsourcing to a regional to to mainline job is one thing. Then outsourcing from the regional you own to another is taking it a lot farther.

Sucks to get furloughed nonetheless

boilerpilot
06-22-2008, 03:12 AM
I'm with the American Eagle guys on this one. "American Airlines" ... "American Eagle", I would think they are the only ones that should be doing that flying. Outsourcing to a regional to to mainline job is one thing. Then outsourcing from the regional you own to another is taking it a lot farther.

Sucks to get furloughed nonetheless

The point isn't who should be doing that flying, it's that there's not only another thread going on about that topic, but it's a rather snide and childish remark in a thread that is ultimately dealing with major upheaval in the lives of 45 pilots. It has as much place as my comment about AMR and Eagle would have in an Eagle furloughing thread (which I hope doesn't come up).

ColoErjPilot
06-22-2008, 06:53 AM
Its also ironic, while our pilots are getting furloughed, Eagle pilots are taking over our STL routes with an addition of 14 daily flights in June alone... Im not going to rant or blame the pilots, but they really should get their facts right....

Mason32
06-22-2008, 10:57 AM
So people are losing their jobs and you make snide remarks? Would you like it if Eagle started furloughing and somebody said "yeah, and it's REALLY gonna suck when AMR sells Eagle". TSA didn't gain any flying out of MIA, so if AMR takes them out of MIA, they have to re-bolster the flying out of STL in order not to breach their contract.


Might want to get a copy of the CPA, and read it, before making blanket statements.

Actually, selling Eagle is probably not going to happen due the limiting factors of their equipment and relatively higher seniority status among their pilot group. Divesting Eagle is an option they will likely proceed with.
It would allow Eagle to grow. Something they can not do while a wholly owned subsidiary since the APA scope restricts them to a percentage of APA flying. As a spun off company they could retain ALL current flying, and even expand.

That all being said, the word to stockholders was that all AMR owned aircraft will be flown by AMR employees, before the company furloughs a single employee. I read that to mean that they intend to take their planes back from subcontractors. Feel free to interpret it your own way.

Mason32
06-22-2008, 11:08 AM
I'm with the American Eagle guys on this one. "American Airlines" ... "American Eagle", I would think they are the only ones that should be doing that flying. Outsourcing to a regional to to mainline job is one thing. Then outsourcing from the regional you own to another is taking it a lot farther.

Sucks to get furloughed nonetheless


Thank you, somebody see's the bigger picture. My read on the industry is that this is the tip of the iceberg. Delta owns Comair, NW owns their regional, USair own two small regionals... AMR owns Eagle... then there are the Republics, TSA, Mesa's and such who will fly in anybody's colors so long as the execs can make a buck and exploit low time pilots by giving jet jobs in exchange for low pay and slave conditions.

The Legacy carriers will expand their use of MULTIPLE regional feeders. Places like Comair, Eagle, Compass will find themselves being beaten up at the contract table by increased threats to transfer more flying to independant subcontractors for less money.

The sad thing is this. All this flying will get done anyway. IF the TSA, Mesa, Republics did not exist, the wholly owned regionals would simply expand to cover the flying. Higher paying jobs, better QOL, better benefits, and a slowing of the race to the bottom.

Mason32
06-22-2008, 11:19 AM
Its also ironic, while our pilots are getting furloughed, Eagle pilots are taking over our STL routes with an addition of 14 daily flights in June alone... Im not going to rant or blame the pilots, but they really should get their facts right....


Have you bothered to read the CPA agreement or the arbitration in 2002 over the 10 airplanes?

When AMR bought TWA, the only reason TSA was retained in the first place, and didn't lose ALL AMR flying then, was because Eagle was already in maximum growth mode and unable to expand fast enough to meet the demand. The arbitrator ruled that because Eagle could not cover the flying, the lease of aircraft alone did not violate the scope section of Eagle's contract. The arbitrator ruled that had it been a transfer of equipment and routes it would have violated Eagle's contract.

By transfering the MIA flying from Eagle to TSA, AMR completed the exact scenario spelled out in the arbitration... the transfer of routes and equipment. The end result is immaterial at this point anyway, since AMR has taken the position that before they furlough any pilots, all AMR owned planes will by flown by pilots on an AMR pilot seniority list. Hence, the speculation of the ten planes being returned to Eagle.

Since the original reason given for keeping TSA as an AMR subcontractor was that Eagle could not expand fast enough to cover the flying.... and that AMR has decided to reduce capacity, I would expect EGL ALPA to include the return of all TSA flying to AMR Eagle in their negotiations. The AMR case of not being able to staff those routes no longer exists.

The handwriting was on the wall when AMR retained TSA after the TWA purchase. If that wasn't clear enough, then the 2002 decision should have made it obvious to anybody with even average intelligence. I am sorry TSA is furloughing... heck, I'm sorry that many airlines are furloughing. My read on this, since this is the TSA thread is that this furlough is the tip of the iceberg. Expect all AMR flying to be transfered, with associated cuts in personnel.

Foxcow
06-22-2008, 04:59 PM
The sad thing is this. All this flying will get done anyway. If the regionals did not exist, the mainline fleets would simply expand to cover the flying. Higher paying jobs, better QOL, better benefits, and a slowing of the race to the bottom.




I fixed your post for you. :rolleyes: Lets not pretend that a wholly owned regional is better than one that is not.

tpersuit
06-22-2008, 05:40 PM
I fixed your post for you. :rolleyes: Lets not pretend that a wholly owned regional is better than one that is not.

but it is. don't act like those that aren't the same as wholly owned are the same as those that are. They undercut and make regional flying ten times worse

flyinaway411
06-22-2008, 05:49 PM
guys, seriously, there is another thread about tsa doing eagle flying for amr, can you keep it over there? mason specifically. people are having a hard enough time dealing with a furlough and probably don't want to read that stuff on this one. you guys really know how to turn a thread.

Blueskies21
06-22-2008, 05:56 PM
Thank you, somebody see's the bigger picture. My read on the industry is that this is the tip of the iceberg. Delta owns Comair, NW owns their regional, USair own two small regionals... AMR owns Eagle... then there are the Republics, TSA, Mesa's and such who will fly in anybody's colors so long as the execs can make a buck and exploit low time pilots by giving jet jobs in exchange for low pay and slave conditions.

The Legacy carriers will expand their use of MULTIPLE regional feeders. Places like Comair, Eagle, Compass will find themselves being beaten up at the contract table by increased threats to transfer more flying to independant subcontractors for less money.

The sad thing is this. All this flying will get done anyway. IF the TSA, Mesa, Republics did not exist, the wholly owned regionals would simply expand to cover the flying. Higher paying jobs, better QOL, better benefits, and a slowing of the race to the bottom.
I just got furloughed from one of those two small regionals... but I wouldn't like to see TSA lose Airways flying to have me keep my job... I can do just about anything and come out even vs. first year pay.. and I don't know who's koolaid you been drinkin but republic's pay scale and work rules really don't compare badly to mine...

Mason32
06-22-2008, 06:04 PM
guys, seriously, there is another thread about tsa doing eagle flying for amr, can you keep it over there? mason specifically. people are having a hard enough time dealing with a furlough and probably don't want to read that stuff on this one. you guys really know how to turn a thread.


you're correct. Sorry.

A10crewdawg
06-23-2008, 02:45 AM
Seriously,

Flame on about the eagle TSA stuff on the other thread.

DeadHead
06-25-2008, 10:43 AM
.....................

JiffyLube
06-27-2008, 02:24 PM
Its also ironic, while our pilots are getting furloughed, Eagle pilots are taking over our STL routes with an addition of 14 daily flights in June alone... Im not going to rant or blame the pilots, but they really should get their facts right....

And AE is get back their 10 RJ's that TSA should have never had in the 1st place...

American Eagle, pilots agree to reduce job cuts: Financial News - Yahoo! Finance (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080627/american_eagle_pilots.html?.v=2)

ERJdude
06-27-2008, 02:32 PM
And AE is get back their 10 RJ's that TSA should have never had in the 1st place...

American Eagle, pilots agree to reduce job cuts: Financial News - Yahoo! Finance (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080627/american_eagle_pilots.html?.v=2)


ya its a good thing them there AE pilots be gone get thur flying planes back...

A10crewdawg
06-27-2008, 02:44 PM
"[quote=JiffyLube;413688]And AE is get back their 10 RJ's that TSA should have never had in the 1st place..."

You're right. We should have never had them in the first place......just your management couldn't apparently cover the flying and American had planes and wanted to make money. I know, let's be happy that those ten planes are now gone and more pilots will be out on the streets. Men and Women with families and mouths to feed. As long as it doesn't include you in the cutbacks it's fine then right? ALPA has outlived it's purpose and apparently so has camraderie and that "fraternal" pilot thing. Whatever happened to being united as pilots? That apparently died out and it became darwanism for pilots. We are just as guilty as management if we keep acting like this throughout the industry.

coldpilot
06-27-2008, 02:55 PM
I know, let's be happy that those ten planes are now gone and more pilots will be out on the streets. Men and Women with families and mouths to feed. As long as it doesn't include you in the cutbacks it's fine then right?

The same could be said about you with the way you are acting right now. Not trying to flame but really? They problem has been long discussed on other threads and you are welcome to look at the active ones about this situation. There is a lot of information out there. Please educate yourself a bit. It always has been an will be a management issue, don't shoot the messenger for relaying information on here.

For all the TSA guys that got the nasty F bomb thrown at them I feel for you and wish you all the best of luck. I may be putting too much faith in TSA management by saying this but hopefully they knew that this announcement was going to be made and that was the reason for the furloughs and there is not a need for more of them. Again, good luck guys.

mwa1
06-27-2008, 03:31 PM
ok that eagle fuloughed 200 people and then gave away 10 aircraft though i guess

PIPErdrvr
06-27-2008, 04:06 PM
"[quote=JiffyLube;413688]And AE is get back their 10 RJ's that TSA should have never had in the 1st place..."

You're right. We should have never had them in the first place......just your management couldn't apparently cover the flying and American had planes and wanted to make money. I know, let's be happy that those ten planes are now gone and more pilots will be out on the streets. Men and Women with families and mouths to feed. As long as it doesn't include you in the cutbacks it's fine then right? ALPA has outlived it's purpose and apparently so has camraderie and that "fraternal" pilot thing. Whatever happened to being united as pilots? That apparently died out and it became darwanism for pilots. We are just as guilty as management if we keep acting like this throughout the industry.

Preach on!! I CANNOT believe how petty ppl can be! This all needs to end right now; no good can come from arguing over this issue. Everyone has mouths to feed. But I guess some forgot Eagle is talking furlough too. What about our mouths? Thought we were all on the same team. Pulling together. Guess not!

ChinsFive
06-27-2008, 04:10 PM
Whatever happened to being united as pilots?

United? As in flying the same airplanes as another pilot group but for less?

flyinaway411
06-27-2008, 04:34 PM
And AE is get back their 10 RJ's that TSA should have never had in the 1st place...


this comment didn't need to be made to reopen this thread. it was rude and was made simply to incite the responses it has. very immature. if we (tsa) kept the planes, eagle furloughs. they get the planes back, we furlough. its a lose-lose situation. they are their planes, so they get them. botttom line, thats business. instead of supporting pilots getting furloughed, all of you have once again turned another thread into a ****ing match with the "my airline is better than yours and i'm better than you because i get paid more." give it a rest. nobody wins.

ExperimentalAB
06-27-2008, 04:41 PM
flyinaway, the voice of reason :D

This sucks for everybody and it's terrible that there will be more guys on the street regardless...Best of luck to those affected.



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