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Badgeman
08-31-2008, 10:13 PM
I started a thread on Cathay Pacific to find out what the starting pay for the SO job there was. I was disappointingly also informed that regardless of their posting 1000TT and a passed ATP written on their website as minimums, those people actually getting the job had, in all reality, between 2500 - 3000TT and jet experience.

In light of this, has anyone gotten hired at Quantas for the SO job lately and what kind of hours do/did you have? Could you comment on the experience level of the trainees?


KoruPilot
08-31-2008, 11:50 PM
Likely the people getting hired know how to spell it for starters . . . sorry, cheap shot but I just couldn't resist. It's Qantas mate, no 'u'.

I would assume, with ease really, that the published SO minimums at QF are very close to Air NZ, which is something like 500 hours and the ATPL writtens complete.

In reality, at Air NZ and again likely over at QF, the reality is something much different. My interview class three years ago at ANZ was a bunch of captains or Airforce commanders with at least 3500 total. Most of us had at least four figures of turbine command, a couple had jet command, and the times went as high as 7000 hours.

People in this neck of the woods take SO positions with the majors here, QF and ANZ, because they are generally from here and want to stay here; ie. do not want to go to CX, EK etc. For that reason the competition is pretty fierce. Also, for either airline, you would at least require permanent residency to be accepted for an interview. If you do not have that, or any chance of getting it, you will simply not get an interview.

MayFly135s
09-01-2008, 06:58 AM
Bagdeman

Timing is everything in aviation, and unfortunately you have hit the wave at a bad time. There are a lot of highly experienced pilots on the street looking for work right now.

When you start talking about the likes of QF, ANZ, and CX remember that these are major flag carriers so there is very serious competition for these jobs.

For Qantas take a good hard look at the Qantas Minimum Criteria for Direct Entry Pilots and see if you honestly meet the Residency and Qualification requirements. If you are not Australian, below is a previous post that details getting into Australian aviation.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/17834-australian-pilot-shortage-2.html#post247272

In the meantime relax, enjoy the flying, improve your jobs where you can, and wait for the ride to smooth out. You've got till age 65 and you don't want to burn bridges before you even start...esp with the guys that will help you out!

MayFly


B757200ER
09-01-2008, 07:26 AM
Likely the people getting hired know how to spell it for starters . . . sorry, cheap shot but I just couldn't resist. It's Qantas mate, no 'u'.


100% Right!

QANTAS---Queensland And Northern Territories Aerial Service!

Badgeman
09-01-2008, 11:22 AM
Unlike so many of my counterparts, at least I know that it's "Cathay" Pacific, not "Cathy". That drives me nuts! :D

With folks so willing to underlook a simple miskey "Quantas/Qantas", I'm really not very sure there are any bridges here to burn. A quote taken from MayFly135.
100% Right!

QANTAS---Queensland And Northern Territories Aerial Service!

KoruPilot
09-01-2008, 02:10 PM
I know, I was just kidding. Sorry about that.

If you have the right to work and some good time in the log book it is a great area of the world to live.

Good luck.

Badgeman
09-01-2008, 02:50 PM
......Okay. :)I know, I was just kidding. Sorry about that.

If you have the right to work and some good time in the log book it is a great area of the world to live.

Good luck.

Badgeman
09-01-2008, 03:13 PM
Bagdeman

For Qantas take a good hard look at the Qantas Minimum Criteria for Direct Entry Pilots and see if you honestly meet the Residency and Qualification requirements. If you are not Australian, below is a previous post that details getting into Australian aviation.

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/foreign/17834-australian-pilot-shortage-2.html#post247272

In the meantime relax, enjoy the flying, Good thread. Thanks for sharing and the advise. It really looks like by the time I had all this sorted out I'd have the 3000-4000hrs (up from 1000TT) needed to even be seriously considered.

When I first started my new direction in life, Fortune 500 Magazine had just published an article entitled "Top 10 Sure Thing Jobs of the New Millennia!" Airline pilot was on that list. I always knew flying was going to be something I'd enjoy anyway, but I'd sure like to find that columnist now and.....

I guess it just goes to show you, there really are no experts in anything.

Kenny
09-01-2008, 04:00 PM
When I renewed my Australian IR earlier this year I got talking to a couple of guys at the flight school, that had just interviewed at QF for SO jobs. They were both instructors that had about 2500 hours a piece and from what I could learn, most of the guys they thought QF was taking for the SO positions came from the cadet scheme.

QF is NOT what it used to be; with the introduction of Jet*, QF pilots have essentially allowed an alter-ego airline on their turf that has so far taken over the QF A330's and is due to receive the majority of the 787's that QF has on order.

Competition for QF is beyond anything you could imagine and really, without having grown up in the Australian Aviation petri dish you're probably SOL.

There was a time when I'd have given my left nut for a job there, but not any more.

Badgeman
09-01-2008, 04:38 PM
Competition for QF is beyond anything you could imagine and really, without having grown up in the Australian Aviation petri dish you're probably SOL.

I honestly don't get it. If there is such an extreme pilot shortage in Australia why is the competition so fierce at Qantas? Why would the Australian government be making it so hard for foreign pilot to get a job in an industry virtually starving to death for airmen? I thought ICAO solved all these problems of "your system, not my system.". I get it. I am walking into the world of applied aviation vs. the world of aviation theory I spent the last 6 years of my life in during college and flight school.

nicholasblonde
09-01-2008, 05:16 PM
I honestly don't get it. If there is such an extreme pilot shortage in Australia why is the competition so fierce at Qantas? Why would the Australian government be making it so hard for foreign pilot to get a job in an industry virtually starving to death for airmen? I thought ICAO solved all these problems of "your system, not my system.". I get it. I am walking into the world of applied aviation vs. the world of aviation theory I spent the last 6 years of my life in during college and flight school.

You're basically ignoring the fundamental tenets of international contract flying common to all countries with so-called "pilot shortages:"

1) Most of these countries have a need for EXPERIENCED pilots (those with time on type) in the short-term, and they will go overseas to fill the short-term gap until their local guys have enough experience...which leads to the next point...

2) If a country is short enough on pilots in the long-term forecast, they ARE willing to train and take on lower-timers, but due to the increased cost (and increased risk of losing them to other foreign carriers), they typically don't go out recruiting foreigners for these lower-time cadet/type rating/bonding programmes.

So, in general, when you see some news headline "So and so is desperate for pilots," remember, said country will typically go about filling the shortage by importing foreigners with time on type for the short-run until they can train/recruit/season enough locals to fill the gap when the foreigners cycle back out. This is why you don't see many (there are some, i.e. Cathay/Emirates/etc.) airlines worldwide recruiting foreigners for permanent positions. This is not to say there aren't opps out there (Africa, for example) for low-timers to get some great experience.

Kenny
09-01-2008, 05:35 PM
I honestly don't get it. If there is such an extreme pilot shortage in Australia why is the competition so fierce at Qantas? Why would the Australian government be making it so hard for foreign pilot to get a job in an industry virtually starving to death for airmen? I thought ICAO solved all these problems of "your system, not my system.". I get it. I am walking into the world of applied aviation vs. the world of aviation theory I spent the last 6 years of my life in during college and flight school.


Australia does not have serious shortage of pilots. What they do have is a shortage of pilots willing to work for the [email protected] pay that is being offered by the lower tier airlines. Namely QF Link, Rex and NJS. No matter where you go on this planet you'll find experienced Australian pilots that would go back in a heart beat but can't because the money isn't reasonable

NJS have recently introduced a B-Scale contract, that starts a B717 FO off at around AU$58k, as well as a 3 year bond. Sounds good compared to the pittance you'd get here as a 1st year FO at a regional. BUT and here's the big but, QF does not hire from QF Link carriers. Unofficially, of course. So your only option to move on in Oz is Virgin Blue. Also, I'd love to move back home but I'm not particularly fond of the amount of tax I'd be paying. Australia is now one of the most highly taxed countries in the world and the cost of living has sky-rocketed over the last 5 years. So you're not going to see much of that AU$58k starting pay. THe last time I talked to a couple of my mates in Oz, the CA at NJS was earning AU$110k and paying around AU$35k in taxes. The CA at Virgin Blue was earning AU$190k and paying AU$70k in taxes.

The other 2 carriers I mentioned require you to pay around AU12k for a type rating (FO's are required to be typed in Australia) and pay less than NJS.

Virgin Blue and QF are not having problems finding suitable applicants and filling any available positions, whatever you may read in the press.

Badgeman
09-02-2008, 06:59 PM
Australia does not have serious shortage of pilots. What they do have is a shortage of pilots willing to work for the [email protected] pay that is being offered by the lower tier airlines.


That makes two countries.

But, doesn't Australia have socialized health-care? If you add health-care costs into the taxes we pay here in the US, we'd be better of just socializing medicine since combined we spend more on taxes and health care than the Aussis spend on taxes alone. Germany has nearly 40% taxes, but at least you get what you pay for. Pension funds are guaranteed to a much higher rate along with months of "you've been fired" pay, if it should happen. Don't the Australian citizens get anything in return? In the US we look forward to finding our way into the most heavily taxed bracket as we work out way towards $250k.

Badgeman
09-02-2008, 07:06 PM
You're basically ignoring the fundamental tenets of international contract flying common to all countries with so-called "pilot shortages:"

1) Most of these countries have a need for EXPERIENCED pilots (those with time on type) in the short-term, and they will go overseas to fill the short-term gap until their local guys have enough experience...which leads to the next point...

2) If a country is short enough on pilots in the long-term forecast, they ARE willing to train and take on lower-timers, but due to the increased cost (and increased risk of losing them to other foreign carriers), they typically don't go out recruiting foreigners for these lower-time cadet/type rating/bonding programmes.

So, in general, when you see some news headline "So and so is desperate for pilots," remember, said country will typically go about filling the shortage by importing foreigners with time on type for the short-run until they can train/recruit/season enough locals to fill the gap when the foreigners cycle back out. This is why you don't see many (there are some, i.e. Cathay/Emirates/etc.) airlines worldwide recruiting foreigners for permanent positions. This is not to say there aren't opps out there (Africa, for example) for low-timers to get some great experience.

Noted. Thanks for all the news.

stillcallozhome
09-02-2008, 08:33 PM
Kenny - I thought you were heading to VB?? Never got a confirmation on that QF requirement for all ATPL subjects if you convert ATP to CASA ATPL from QF.

When I renewed my Australian IR earlier this year I got talking to a couple of guys at the flight school, that had just interviewed at QF for SO jobs. They were both instructors that had about 2500 hours a piece and from what I could learn, most of the guys they thought QF was taking for the SO positions came from the cadet scheme.

QF is NOT what it used to be; with the introduction of Jet*, QF pilots have essentially allowed an alter-ego airline on their turf that has so far taken over the QF A330's and is due to receive the majority of the 787's that QF has on order.

Competition for QF is beyond anything you could imagine and really, without having grown up in the Australian Aviation petri dish you're probably SOL.


There was a time when I'd have given my left nut for a job there, but not any more.