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Foxcow
11-06-2008, 12:02 PM
I hate to be the bringer of bad news but things are looking like they are coming to an end at TSA. I just got back from a meeting and it is now known that Gojet is adding CRJ-200s to their fleet. Apparently, most of the them are coming from the desert. According to a highly placed source, they are going to be staffed by current Gojet pilots and through jets for jobs possibly furloughed United and Continental pilots.

The contract that the TSA pilots have been working under became effective August 1, 2000. The contract was extended another two years to 2006 (much controversy surrounds the extension). In 2006, negotiations started again and in over 24 months of negotiations, a little more than half of the sections of the contract have been TA-ed with no end in sight. According to my source, TSA management will be able to get the CRJ-200 program spooled up long before the Obama takes the White House and can make his appointments (early summer was their most optimistic estimate) and we get released for self help. There are a number of Flight Safety instructors that have been put on notice to start training and Trans States Holdings is down in Florida recruiting at Embry Riddle (I kid you not) but hopefully the people that they are trying to recruit have some self respect and did their research.

In other words, TSA pilots and other employees are screwed...:mad:


Discuss


flyvne1971
11-06-2008, 12:08 PM
THat is really out there!! TSA has 50 seaters and they (GJ) are going to get there own 50 seaters!! Is GJ going to be flying for another airline other than United?:eek:

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 12:09 PM
I don't understand why those airplanes aren't under the TSA certificate, last I checked CRJ2s were 50 seaters. Doesn't make sense legally.


Sniper
11-06-2008, 12:10 PM
According to a highly placed source, they are going to be staffed by current Gojet pilots and through jets for jobs possibly furloughed United and Continental pilots.

Hopefully:
1) source is wrong
2) CO ALPA (Prater's kids) and UA ALPA have enough stones to not allow their ALPA furloughed pilots to go to a shop that exists only to undermine another ALPA carrier. No much hope, though, since US Airways was sending furloughed guys to Freedom Airlines in late 2002, and US ALPA didn't speak up about it.

Waiting for the press release.

Foxcow
11-06-2008, 12:10 PM
We think that we are going to be replaced.



Tomorrow, the MEC is going to have an emergency meeting. They are trying to get Praeter and National involved so they can throw some support our way. I will be getting details tomorrow.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 12:13 PM
The sole purpose of GJ was to fly 50+ seaters. Unless they are planning on merging TSA with GJ, TSA should be getting 50 seaters. Either way I somehow doubt ALPA is going to let GJ fly what should be our airplanes.

TristarJS30
11-06-2008, 12:14 PM
Either way I somehow doubt ALPA is going to let GJ fly what should be our airplanes.

I wouldn't count on it.

Foxcow
11-06-2008, 12:17 PM
What is contractually legal and what is actually going to happen are usually two different things.

RuttR
11-06-2008, 12:22 PM
I don't see how TSA can just hand over our flying to GJ. That flying was awarded to TSA. In UAL eyes, we are two seperate companies.

nwa757
11-06-2008, 01:14 PM
This disgusts me, as it should all pilots in the pay to play bologna regional world.

As TSA furloughs up to 200 pilots, GOJETS hires. Unreal folks.


Another reason why Teamsters is not a good pilot union... they approve of and take from ALPA as well as take in alter-ego pilots like gojets.

ALPA national if you aren't all over this yesterday then there is going to be some turbulence ahead.

Waterskiers, we've got your back. Let everyone know what we can do to help.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 01:38 PM
This disgusts me, as it should all pilots in the pay to play bologna regional world.

As TSA furloughs up to 200 pilots, GOJETS hires. Unreal folks.


Another reason why Teamsters is not a good pilot union... they approve of and take from ALPA as well as take in alter-ego pilots like gojets.

ALPA national if you aren't all over this yesterday then there is going to be some turbulence ahead.

Waterskiers, we've got your back. Let everyone know what we can do to help.

For what it's worth, GJ is not part of the Airline Teamsters, that division wouldn't allow them in. They're part of some local number in STL. But yes, this is disgusting and I have a feeling it won't go the TSH/GJ way if in fact they are planning on doing this.

johnso29
11-06-2008, 01:44 PM
I wouldn't put it past HK. That guy would jump over his dying mother to save a dime.

Salukipilot4590
11-06-2008, 01:46 PM
For what it's worth, GJ is not part of the Airline Teamsters, that division wouldn't allow them in. They're part of some local number in STL. But yes, this is disgusting and I have a feeling it won't go the TSH/GJ way if in fact they are planning on doing this.

Local 618 to be exact.

How I feel in a nutshell:

YouTube - The Boondocks - Tom Freaks Out (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzhhU68KskY)

ehe2
11-06-2008, 02:01 PM
I don't see how TSA can just hand over our flying to GJ. That flying was awarded to TSA. In UAL eyes, we are two seperate companies.

No,UAL looks at TSH as one company. Just like RAH (Shuttle and CHQ) as one company.

JayHub
11-06-2008, 02:09 PM
I hope to GOD this does not happen.....Gojet gets 200s while i sit on the bench.. We need to be released to self help NOW. As a true Waterskier we salute all our fellow pilots that have got our backs!!!

http://www.onlineembroiderydesigner.com/embroideryclipart/Bulls.Angry%20Bull.%28MA144%29.%283.64x2.33%29.172 05.jpg

freezingflyboy
11-06-2008, 02:18 PM
Wow Waterskiiers! I really hope this is not true. I'll wait to break out the war axe until I see something from an official source...but schmuck a hairy duck! Seems like you guys can't catch a break!

boilerpilot
11-06-2008, 02:21 PM
Wow, this makes me want to throw up. I didn't know it was possible to stoop any lower.

jaded
11-06-2008, 02:22 PM
That's real bad news...

UCLAbruins
11-06-2008, 02:28 PM
I hope to GOD this does not happen.....Gojet gets 200s while i sit on the bench.. We need to be released to self help NOW. As a true Waterskier we salute all our fellow pilots that have got our backs!!!



other pilots "having your back" doesn't really mean much these days. Its a race to the bottom, the cheaper survive, that's all.

Go Jet pilots can tell you they have your back, but if their company can get'em more flying, they'll jump all over that. Go Jet needs the business, Go Jet pilots need the flight time to move on.

JayHub
11-06-2008, 02:32 PM
I know most won't, but I'd like to see how many Riddle guys being targeted, bite at this cherry...........

JayHub
11-06-2008, 02:34 PM
other pilots "having your back" doesn't really mean much these days. Its a race to the bottom, the cheaper survive, that's all.

Go Jet pilots can tell you they have your back, but if their company can get'em more flying, they'll jump all over that. Go Jet needs the business, Go Jet pilots need the flight time to move on.

is this a joke

RuttR
11-06-2008, 03:08 PM
No,UAL looks at TSH as one company. Just like RAH (Shuttle and CHQ) as one company.

I know the people there understand it's a holding company. I'm going to stick with my original statement where UAL, with respect to awarding flying, see Gojets and TSA as two seperate companies; two seperate contracts.

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 03:23 PM
As a TSA pilot, it's a very simple concept if you look at it in managements eyes:

Cheaper labor is found at GoJets....they were started as an airline to be cheaper labor.

United wants you to fly more 50 seaters...give it to the cheaper labor group in any form possible.

Cheaper labor = more profits = capitalism.

Welcome to America folks. For God's sake there is a profession of people known as "Union busters", and that's all we're going to eat. Saddest part of it is we're all going to wake up tommorrow and do our job as diligent drones because it's illegal to slow down, illegal to call out sick, illegal to waste fuel, illegal to back your union, but it's not illegal to capitalize your company and turn out profits while ruining 100's of families lives.....

Pilotpip
11-06-2008, 03:37 PM
I'll be happy to bring torches. I'll also fight like hell to make sure they don't get a jumpseat.

Once a waterskier, always a waterskier...

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 03:41 PM
I'll be happy to bring torches. I'll also fight like hell to make sure they don't get a jumpseat.

Once a waterskier, always a waterskier...

I pay my union dues, i'm part of one of our committie's, and I'll do whatever is necessary to protect not only my job, but the dignity of this job.

I'm so tired of walking on a jet bridge, seeing a fellow pilot telling me "yea man, I'm getting furloughed, but before i get furloughed i'm getting displaced to dulles so i have to commute", and then hearing that the other side is running down to florida to recruit people......

I remember thinking a pilot used to be white collar job, not so much anymore

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 03:43 PM
where's the edit button? I meant "commities"

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 03:45 PM
I'll be happy to bring torches. I'll also fight like hell to make sure they don't get a jumpseat.

Once a waterskier, always a waterskier...

I'll first establish that I have no dog in this fight. That said, this is unfortunate. However, it is not the fault of GoJet pilots. If there was a picket line and GoJet pilots were crossing, then yes. Deny the jumpseats. Until then, I recommend you keep a cool head. I'm sure Hulas wants the infighting. Denying jumpseats is for scabs and pilots that go to work for GoJet aren't scabs by any stretch of the imagination.

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 03:45 PM
Also, it seems kinda coincidence this all comes down right after elections are over, because we all know a democratic party NMB would release a pilot group to strike....

Makes you really think

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 03:47 PM
I'll first establish that I have no dog in this fight. That said, this is unfortunate. However, it is not the fault of GoJet pilots. If there was a picket line and GoJet pilots were crossing, then yes. Deny the jumpseats. Until then, I recommend you keep a cool head. I'm sure Hulas wants the infighting. Denying jumpseats is for scabs and pilots that go to work for GoJet aren't scabs by any stretch of the imagination.

15 new jets on property = ~150 pilots

No matter where those pilots come from, they're scabs. I don't know where you can find a better definition of a damn scab.

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 03:51 PM
15 new jets on property = ~150 pilots

No matter where those pilots come from, they're scabs. I don't know where you can find a better definition of a damn scab.

Since you obviously don't know the definition of the word "scab" in the context of this discussion, here it is;

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scab)

4. a worker who refuses to join a labor union or to participate in a union strike, who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like.

reevesofskyking
11-06-2008, 03:56 PM
These days it takes quite a bit for me to post anymore.

I find it a shame to all of those that remember me crying foul over thier 50 seat payscale, to see it start coming true.

I would hate to see this for any pilot group, but it hurts more to my former waterskiers that I was proud to be a part of.

While it will be said that I might or should feel the same empathy for all pilot groups, but the fact remains that was my only pilot group that I had known, and it strikes closer to me.

I also wished the pilot group could have burned it down first to make the point, would have never wanted managment to light the match for you. Just cuts your knees out from under you, and takes any kind of control over your fate from you and back firmly back to where it does not need to be.

To my acquaintances, colleagues, and above all my friends, best of luck. Just because the company may fizzle away to nothing, the legacy of all waterskiers will live on in our minds.

Ryan Reeves

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 03:57 PM
Since you obviously don't know the definition of the word "scab" in the context of this discussion, here it is;

Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scab)

4. a worker who refuses to join a labor union or to participate in a union strike, who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like.

are we playing a game here of who bolds the best definition?

who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like.

Trans States would strike if we're not paid industry average for flying a 50 seat jet, so instead of that happening the company brings the same type of aircraft with another labor group?

RuttR
11-06-2008, 03:59 PM
....Denying jumpseats is for scabs and pilots that go to work for GoJet aren't scabs by any stretch of the imagination.

TSA served the 50 seat market. Now, we have colleagues losing their jobs while our sister company is hiring to fill 50 seat airplanes they yet have.

There is a principle picket line and those who are willing to cross it do not serve the common good; they’re setting us back in an era where a step forward is nearly unachievable.

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 04:04 PM
Where are the Eagle guys btw? I was hoping for at least a "you got what you had coming to you because you took our flying, but gave us back our 10 planes to save 100+ jobs!"

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 04:04 PM
are we playing a game here of who bolds the best definition?

who takes a striking worker's place on the job, or the like.

Trans States would strike if we're not paid industry average for flying a 50 seat jet, so instead of that happening the company brings the same type of aircraft with another labor group?

No, no game at all. I'm just giving you the definition.

"would strike"?? If TSA strikes, more power to them. However, they're not striking so GJ pilots aren't scabs.

ehe2
11-06-2008, 04:06 PM
I know the people there understand it's a holding company. I'm going to stick with my original statement where UAL, with respect to awarding flying, see Gojets and TSA as two seperate companies; two seperate contracts.

Not really, UAL only sees TSH performance (both TSA and GJ combined) I know this for a fact. It is the same with awarding flying...based on TSH performance.

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 04:06 PM
TSA served the 50 seat market. Now, we have colleagues losing their jobs while our sister company is hiring to fill 50 seat airplanes they yet have.

There is a principle picket line and those who are willing to cross it do not serve the common good; they’re setting us back in an era where a step forward is nearly unachievable.

It sounds like more of a management/union problem. As for your principle picket line, please show me a press release. Until there's a strike and GJ pilots cross the line, they're not scabs, period.

TSA and GJ are both IBT, right? It sounds like your energies are misdirected.

Pilotpip
11-06-2008, 04:08 PM
LeftWing,

How is taking a job for significantly less pay, knowing it's in total violation of CBA in place between a company and Pilot Group that much different than crossing the picket line? This is nothing more than subverting an established contract to bust the union. Pilots going to work at GoJet have the exact same effect as those crossing a picket line.

TSA is ALPA. GJ is Teamster but they weren't allowed into 747 (airline) they had to join a local in St. Louis that represents gas station attendants.

erjguy
11-06-2008, 04:12 PM
No, no game at all. I'm just giving you the definition.

"would strike"?? If TSA strikes, more power to them. However, they're not striking so GJ pilots aren't scabs.

Had TSA pilots had the opportunity to strike over the Go Jet issue we would have. When the government has to give a union the right to strike then we have to a bit more liberal with the use of the word scab. Go Jet pilots are scabs.

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 04:17 PM
LeftWing,

How is taking a job for significantly less pay, knowing it's in total violation of CBA in place between a company and Pilot Group that much different than crossing the picket line? This is nothing more than subverting an established contract to bust the union. Pilots going to work at GoJet have the exact same effect as those crossing a picket line.

In the recent past, it seems that people are too loose with using the term "scab". It is being watered down. Should prospective GJ new-hire think about these things? Absolutely. Personally, I would discourage anyone from applying simply for a principled statement. However, they're still not scabs nor should they be treated as such......especially the pilots already on the property.

It seems that Hulas wants the strife and to treat GJ pilots as scabs is playing into his game.


TSA is ALPA. GJ is Teamster but they weren't allowed into 747 (airline) they had to join a local in St. Louis that represents gas station attendants.

I stand corrected.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 04:19 PM
It sounds like more of a management/union problem. As for your principle picket line, please show me a press release. Until there's a strike and GJ pilots cross the line, they're not scabs, period.

TSA and GJ are both IBT, right? It sounds like your energies are misdirected.

LeftWing I would recommend you join the times. The definition of Scab has changed to the secondayr. No one is going to cross a picket line these days even if we could strike, which we can't. However as we have seen in 2001 with Freedom and 05 with Gojet and although different but somewhat similar case with the RAH/Midwest deal, the definition of scab is someone who is willingly undermining a union contract. And in fact that's what a scab is if you go down the list on webster.

The same company that furloughed me, the same one that was signing my paycheck, is hiring new pilots for the same holdings company. If those new pilots aren't scabs or at least represent the same thing then I don't know what to tell you.

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 04:19 PM
No, no game at all. I'm just giving you the definition.

"would strike"?? If TSA strikes, more power to them. However, they're not striking so GJ pilots aren't scabs.

yea you're 100% right!

where do you work so I can do your job for $1/hr less than you do?

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 04:22 PM
Had TSA pilots had the opportunity to strike over the Go Jet issue we would have. When the government has to give a union the right to strike then we have to a bit more liberal with the use of the word scab. Go Jet pilots are scabs.

Then educate me. Was there a TSA contract impasse that didn't get binding arbitration? Did this result in an NMB imposed cooling off period to delay an actual petition to strike?

If not, they're not scabs.

trackpilot
11-06-2008, 04:22 PM
I know most won't, but I'd like to see how many Riddle guys being targeted, bite at this cherry...........

Oh you'd be surprised how many people were talking to the recruiters at their booth. I'm guessing it's because Go jets is the only airline hiring. Because last year NO ONE was talking to Go jets...

flynavyj
11-06-2008, 04:23 PM
This makes me sick!

RuttR
11-06-2008, 04:24 PM
It sounds like more of a management/union problem. As for your principle picket line, please show me a press release. Until there's a strike and GJ pilots cross the line, they're not scabs, period.

TSA and GJ are both IBT, right? It sounds like your energies are misdirected.

Can somebody just please come up with some other word instead of "scab" because apparently, it's not good enough.. Is there a word we can use to describe those willing to undercut those seeking to make their jobs better??


No, TSA is not part of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 04:26 PM
Can somebody just please come up with some other word instead of "scab".. Is there a word we can use to describe those willing to undercut those seeking to make their jobs better??

No, TSA is not part of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters.

ok new term, we'll call them "hamburgers"

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 04:26 PM
hamburgers totally make a cheeseburger seem worthless

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 04:28 PM
LeftWing I would recommend you join the times. The definition of Scab has changed to the secondayr. No one is going to cross a picket line these days even if we could strike, which we can't. However as we have seen in 2001 with Freedom and 05 with Gojet and although different but somewhat similar case with the RAH/Midwest deal, the definition of scab is someone who is willingly undermining a union contract. And in fact that's what a scab is if you go down the list on webster.

The same company that furloughed me, the same one that was signing my paycheck, is hiring new pilots for the same holdings company. If those new pilots aren't scabs or at least represent the same thing then I don't know what to tell you.

Well, I just checked Webster's and there is no reference to a worker being a scab unless there's a strike.

I understand the alter ego carrier issue and it sucks. However, one who is employed at said carrier isn't a scab.

Anyway, I'm finished so it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. I really am sympathetic to TSA pilots. However, I will not deny a GJ pilot a jumpseat until they are actually scabs.

jaded
11-06-2008, 04:28 PM
I'm trying to remember, as I don't have a copy of the contract anymore, something about forming an alter ego airline with certain criterias like personnel, similar aircraft type, etc... can anyone confirm? And why isn't there a strike going on right now?

Stew75
11-06-2008, 04:29 PM
This although not suprising makes me sick. You can never put it past ole uncle hulie. They are already enjoying my job. To all the waterskiers out there good luck and it was a pleasure flying with you guys.

Atreyu
11-06-2008, 04:30 PM
Well, I just checked Webster's and there is no reference to a worker being a scab unless there's a strike.

I understand the alter ego carrier issue and it sucks. However, one who is employed at said carrier isn't a scab.

Anyway, I'm finished so it looks like we'll have to agree to disagree. I really am sympathetic to TSA pilots. However, I will not deny a GJ pilot a jumpseat until they are actually scabs.

please PM me your info so I can deny you a jumpseat, and make sure any TSA pilot does the same

stoki
11-06-2008, 04:32 PM
lower and lower

flynavyj
11-06-2008, 04:33 PM
according to the law, you've gotta be released to strike....i'd much rather just see us not show up anymore....but i don't see that happening...If the union called and told me that it was going down on monday, i can tell you where i WOULDN'T be on monday, that's for sure.

rickkane
11-06-2008, 04:38 PM
i will step in and say this: no more bickering on what the definition of what a "scab" is. obviously that will get no where. why not try piece of sh##, or maybe a scumbag? how about dou###? there are a hundred terms in the language to decribe them (gojets). i usually change it up once a week when i see them to keep it fresh and new:) i call it therapy!!

erjguy
11-06-2008, 04:39 PM
Then educate me. Was there a TSA contract impasse that didn't get binding arbitration? Did this result in an NMB imposed cooling off period to delay an actual petition to strike?

If not, they're not scabs.

Well, only a Go Jet pilot would spend this much time defending them. I am going to go argue with a brick wall. It will be more constructive.

soon2bfo
11-06-2008, 04:40 PM
Wow. I was hired at Tranny States just after the GoJet thing went down, and Rick Leach told us at that time that GoJet was created because of the American scope clause that disallowed involvement with a company that operated anything with more than 50 seats. That was directly from the rat's mouth. Now American is totally out of the picture. If we aren't careful this is going to turn into the new version of the whipsaw. The regional carriers will operate new certificates and force the senior pilots to start over at the bottom and make their own employees reapply and re-interview for their jobs. This is crap, but not wholly without precedent TSA debacles.

I hope that there is a good lawyer out there who can take this case on and bring Leach and his pandering clowns to their knees. The FAA and companies require so much of their pilot groups. We give up lifestyle, pay, and job security while they give us less and less in return. This needs to stop here and now.

Stew75
11-06-2008, 04:44 PM
I quit believing anything Leach said when he said, "We hate to furlough. I don't see us furloughing again." I was furloughed Aug. 31st.

JayHub
11-06-2008, 04:48 PM
Oh you'd be surprised how many people were talking to the recruiters at their booth. I'm guessing it's because Go jets is the only airline hiring. Because last year NO ONE was talking to Go jets...

Are they offering to help pay for licenses or what.....:confused:

It is unjustifiable to work for this company......look, any of you newbie guys/gals out there who are reading these forums anonymously, i know there's a bucket load of you, please for heavens sake DO YOUR RESEARCH......... You will not be respected by any of your peers,........think about it Gojet is the only airline that has to literally hunt for applications in our current industry environment.....I wonder why?

nwa757
11-06-2008, 04:51 PM
the definition of scab is someone who is willingly undermining a union contract. And in fact that's what a scab is if you go down the list on webster.

The same company that furloughed me, the same one that was signing my paycheck, is hiring new pilots for the same holdings company. If those new pilots aren't scabs or at least represent the same thing then I don't know what to tell you.

Exactly. If all you gojet defenders wanna call it SCUM instead of SCAB, go ahead. It's all the same to me. Doing another pilot's job for less falls under my definition of SCUM.

It's what is bringing down the profession but some irrational people on here would rather defend it than fight it.

I'll fight it.

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 04:52 PM
Well, only a Go Jet pilot would spend this much time defending them. I am going to go argue with a brick wall. It will be more constructive.

Now you're making a straw man argument. No, I don't fly for GJ. I just happen to care about the integrity of important definitions....especially on labor issues.

Copperhed51
11-06-2008, 04:53 PM
I am so beyond angry right now. Honestly I think it's time to organize a strike. Screw the whole government permission thing, just do it. Everybody could potentially get fired, I know. Seriously though, this is just so infuriating. If the TSA pilot group were to man up and do this, it could show the rest of the airline community just how a pilot group can and should act together when everything is standing in their way.

I'm very tempted to begin setting up a behind-the-scenes strike committee. I'm so ****ed right now.

Full Disclosure: Yes I interviewed at GJ after my TSA furlough but they didn't seem to think I was qualified...thank god.

LeftWing
11-06-2008, 04:54 PM
please PM me your info so I can deny you a jumpseat, and make sure any TSA pilot does the same

That's pretty immature of you. Besides, I doubt that you could garner such support.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 05:47 PM
I am so beyond angry right now. Honestly I think it's time to organize a strike. Screw the whole government permission thing, just do it. Everybody could potentially get fired, I know. Seriously though, this is just so infuriating. If the TSA pilot group were to man up and do this, it could show the rest of the airline community just how a pilot group can and should act together when everything is standing in their way.

I'm very tempted to begin setting up a behind-the-scenes strike committee. I'm so ****ed right now.

Full Disclosure: Yes I interviewed at GJ after my TSA furlough but they didn't seem to think I was qualified...thank god.

We'll see what happens tomorrow but this is going to be crazy. I'm too lazy to look at the contract but I'm pretty sure a management can't just screw TSA like this and transfer all the flying to GJ. If they actually can, then this will probably be an all time low in the regional industry. So much for 25 years of excellence.:rolleyes:

Lysol
11-06-2008, 05:50 PM
I am so beyond angry right now. Honestly I think it's time to organize a strike. Screw the whole government permission thing, just do it. Everybody could potentially get fired, I know. Seriously though, this is just so infuriating. If the TSA pilot group were to man up and do this, it could show the rest of the airline community just how a pilot group can and should act together when everything is standing in their way.

I'm very tempted to begin setting up a behind-the-scenes strike committee. I'm so ****ed right now.

Full Disclosure: Yes I interviewed at GJ after my TSA furlough but they didn't seem to think I was qualified...thank god.

1-Why did you even apply?
2-Would you have taken the job if offered one?

Positive_Rate
11-06-2008, 05:50 PM
Once a waterskier, always a waterskier...


Except those that went to GoJet both to start it and furloughed TSA...to hell with them.

15789
11-06-2008, 05:52 PM
Purpleanga, TSA management really does not give two RatsA$$es about our contract or what is legal or illegal, immoral, unethical, the only thing they care about is making as much money as possible, and if they destroy the lives of nearly all their employees in the process they just consider it a bonus.

Copperhed51
11-06-2008, 05:56 PM
1-Why did you even apply?
2-Would you have taken the job if offered one?


1-Because I didn't realize until now just how messed up this whole situation is and I made a bad decision.

2-Yes, I'm sure I would have because of what I said in #1. I still will too...as long as I'm stapled with the rest of the Waterskiers above the HoJetters.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 05:59 PM
WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! Hold up! Wait a minute!

GoJet getting CRJ-200s is pure SPECULATION. Just because some guy says he got it from a "highly knowledgeable source" doesn't mean jack. Until I see it in writing or the company announces their plan to really screw those of us at Trans States, I won't believe what some anonymous guy on APC says.

On a side note, I've called up some friends of mine down at Embry Riddle and asked them to do some research on the "GoJet is recruiting" for the fabled -200s they are going to recieve. When someone gets some real information, post it. Otherwise, shut your dang mouths. You are rocking a boat that doesn't need to be rocked. We have got enough things to worry about without you yahoos arguing about who qualifies as a scab and the like.

FACTS people, FACTS. That's all I want to hear out of anyone's mouth.

RuttR
11-06-2008, 06:01 PM
Not really, UAL only sees TSH performance (both TSA and GJ combined) I know this for a fact. It is the same with awarding flying...based on TSH performance.


I trust my source at UALHQ. The UAX division sees GoJet and TSA as two seperate companies. They are two completly seperate contracts.

Copperhed51
11-06-2008, 06:04 PM
This is a quote from somebody on another forum:

"Just spoke to two members of our MEC who confirmed everything. Emergency meeting tomorrow, GJ mechanics are in the desert NOW doing pre-buys on -200s."

I'm about to call an MEC member as well to confirm things. I'll report back shortly.

EDIT: Talked to somebody high up in the MEC and he couldn't confirm it 100% but said that everything seemed to be pointing in that direction. He hadn't heard anything official yet though.

elcid79
11-06-2008, 06:08 PM
I know the people there understand it's a holding company. I'm going to stick with my original statement where UAL, with respect to awarding flying, see Gojets and TSA as two seperate companies; two seperate contracts.

The problem is that several of TSA's contracts with united are comming up soon, I do believe. Plus for whats its worth, I verified this story with our Union officials today. Its absolutely 100% true.

RuttR
11-06-2008, 06:11 PM
WHOA! WHOA! WHOA! Hold up! Wait a minute!....GoJet getting CRJ-200s is pure SPECULATION..... FACTS people, FACTS. That's all I want to hear out of anyone's mouth.

I'm agreeing with you. This could still be an attempt for the company to increase the attrition rather than having to furlough. Hopefully, that is the case.

freezingflyboy
11-06-2008, 06:15 PM
I am so beyond angry right now. Honestly I think it's time to organize a strike. Screw the whole government permission thing, just do it. Everybody could potentially get fired, I know. Seriously though, this is just so infuriating. If the TSA pilot group were to man up and do this, it could show the rest of the airline community just how a pilot group can and should act together when everything is standing in their way.

I'm very tempted to begin setting up a behind-the-scenes strike committee. I'm so ****ed right now.

Full Disclosure: Yes I interviewed at GJ after my TSA furlough but they didn't seem to think I was qualified...thank god.

Well if all the Waterskiiers are getting indefinitely furloughed and the flying transferred to the Limburgers then why not? What have you got to lose? I'd be the first guy out the door if I were in that situation (after hiding dead fish in a couple airplanes).

That being said, I'm with Carl on this. Until there is something official from the Union or the company then I would hold off blowing a gasket.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 06:23 PM
I trust my source at UALHQ. The UAX division sees GoJet and TSA as two seperate companies. They are two completly seperate contracts.

Name your source. Name him and quote him. How can we trust what you are saying?

Copperhed51
11-06-2008, 06:26 PM
Well if all the Waterskiiers are getting indefinitely furloughed and the flying transferred to the Limburgers then why not? What have you got to lose? I'd be the first guy out the door if I were in that situation (after hiding dead fish in a couple airplanes).

That being said, I'm with Carl on this. Until there is something official from the Union or the company then I would hold off blowing a gasket.

True, we should wait until something is official. When it is official, the gloves are off. Unfortunately I don't have much power to do anything since I'm furloughed. I guess all I can do is not go back and fly if they call me back to fly when everybody else strikes. This is so ridiculous.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 06:31 PM
If anyone even thinks of adding anything tonight without verifying it or being able to prove it, I will be the first to question you. You guys hear someone cry "WOLF!" and suddenly everyone is in a panic. Just hold your tongues for now, wait for the meeting tomorrow, and then we will know some more, solid information, maybe.

If you really want to do something positive: Get on an airplane, get your butt down to Daytona Beach, and go inform those rich kids on what kind of company is trying to recruit them (if that really is happening). Or get down to the desert and find out if CRJ-200s are being pulled out of the sand for GoJet.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 06:33 PM
No one can confirm WHO is flying the airplanes. That is what all of this is about. I guess we'll find out but I'm guessing this preliminary actions by the company to merge the certificates and it looks like it's going to be called Gojets....

elcid79
11-06-2008, 06:33 PM
Again for whats its worth, I verified this story with several of our Union officials today. Its absolutely 100% true... The "Emergency Meeting" is happening. GoJet IS getting 50 seaters.. Period...

As per the riddle job fair, where is the alpa of old. They should position the most senior Alpa official at the booth next to them. And every pilot that walks up to the gojet table, should then be greated by alpa with a handshake, and told this story.

Back in the 60's Alpa bought an Airline during the Sothern Strike. And staffed it with striking pilots. They flew the exact same routes, at exactly the same time as the Scabs that took the strikers place. They did national add campaigns, for a REGIONAL or Commuter or whatever you wanted to call it. I hope and pray that ALPA fights this again. Alpa used to fight long and hard for the little guys. I pray that they will return to those roots. They even towed banners that said Don't fly X Airline along side of that airlines planes. Even though they can't do that, there are plenty of beaches, plenty of sporting events, and they surely have plenty of pilots who would volunteer. haha. Its time to raise some noise, even if the NMB denies a strike. Alpa can still kick up some dust!

elcid79
11-06-2008, 06:43 PM
"Due to financial considerations, the light at the end of the tunnel shall be extinguished until further notice."

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 06:47 PM
Again for whats its worth, I verified this story with several of our Union officials today. Its absolutely 100% true... The "Emergency Meeting" is happening. GoJet IS getting 50 seaters.. Period...

Name your source. I want initials and when you talked to him. What are your initials? Where is the emergency meeting happening? When is it?

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 06:52 PM
. The "Emergency Meeting" is happening. GoJet IS getting 50 seaters.. Period...


Did you ask them why GJ is getting 50 seaters vs TSA, since that was the whole reason GJ was created to not fly 50 seaters?!!

homelessguy1
11-06-2008, 06:55 PM
Heard from a maint. guy on blow jet side about it. So I would guess its true.

elcid79
11-06-2008, 06:56 PM
Name your source. I want initials and when you talked to him. What are your initials? Where is the emergency meeting happening? When is it?

Would if I could man. But I don't know ya from pete. And I don't want to find myself on Randy's carpet, nor do I want to get any of them sent there. I am sure ya understand.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 06:57 PM
Remember guys, Airline Pilot Central is completely anonymous. Any whack-job (or management) can create a bogus profile and start spreading bogus rumors just to get one pilot group fired up against another. Management would love nothing more than for us to do something stupid in these very trying times. Everyone keep a cool head and, please, for all that is holy, DO NOT DO ANYTHING STUPID TOMORROW.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 06:59 PM
Would if I could man. But I don't know ya from pete. And I don't want to find myself on Randy's carpet, nor do I want to get any of them sent there. I am sure ya understand.

You absolutely know who I am. I'm Captain Carl, pilot extrodinare. :D

But still, let's wait until we get something official. Hmm...kay? ;)

elcid79
11-06-2008, 07:00 PM
Remember guys, Airline Pilot Central is completely anonymous. Any whack-job (or management) can create a bogus profile and start spreading bogus rumors just to get one pilot group fired up against another. Management would love nothing more than for us to do something stupid in these very trying times. Everyone keep a cool head and, please, for all that is holy, DO NOT DO ANYTHING STUPID TOMORROW.

Very true, and my point exactly with initials :)... Even though we are all ****ed, and madder than hell. We are still profesionals. Lets not degrade ourselves to managements levels of imorality. I will not sacrafice my integrity.

elcid79
11-06-2008, 07:02 PM
You absolutely know who I am. I'm Captain Carl, pilot extrodinare. :D


Now thats just funny. thanks for the laugh.

freezingflyboy
11-06-2008, 07:05 PM
Remember guys, Airline Pilot Central is completely anonymous. Any whack-job (or management) can create a bogus profile and start spreading bogus rumors just to get one pilot group fired up against another. Management would love nothing more than for us to do something stupid in these very trying times. Everyone keep a cool head and, please, for all that is holy, DO NOT DO ANYTHING STUPID TOMORROW.

Management-stooges could also create a fake profile to help ferret out a mole by demanding someone divulge details (names, initials, locations, times, etc) about a conversation that took place in confidence;) Not accusing any one of anything, just playing Devil's advocate.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 07:07 PM
Now thats just funny. thanks for the laugh.

Funny man is my part time job. ;)

elcid79
11-06-2008, 07:07 PM
Management-stooges could also create a fake profile to help ferret out a mole by demanding someone divulge details (names, initials, locations, times, etc) about a conversation that took place in confidence;) Not accusing any one of anything, just playing Devil's advocate.

Yup... when you are as small of an airline as we are, initials says who ya are! haha.

RuttR
11-06-2008, 07:09 PM
Name your source. Name him and quote him. How can we trust what you are saying?

How can we trust you and what youuuu are saying???? Are you really captaincarl? I dont think you're even a captain. Your position says FO.
I hope you dont come this forum and expect to get cold hard facts, facts you can wrap your fingers around and taste….because you are not going to get it here. We can lie and b!tch at each other all night long and tomorrow I’ll come knocking on your cockpit door asking for a ride. We’ll shake hands, exchange smiles, and we won't think anything of it.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 07:10 PM
Management-stooges could also create a fake profile to help ferret out a mole by demanding someone divulge details (names, initials, locations, times, etc) about a conversation that took place in confidence;) Not accusing any one of anything, just playing Devil's advocate.

Point taken. But you know full well I'm not management. I'm too much "on edge" to be one of those fools. I just want to know facts. I'll loosen up a little bit tonight and wait for our trusty Union to give us some input tomorrow. I feel a VARS message making its way to our email inboxes very soon.

TrevorW
11-06-2008, 07:11 PM
Heard from a maint. guy on blow jet side about it. So I would guess its true.

I have seen this posted several times, GoJet mechanics in the desert, heard it from a maintenance guy on the GoJet side...

So I will call B.S. on that, anyone informed or anyone who would be talking to a GoJet mechanic would know that GoJet doesn't 'have' mechanics. GoJet recieves contract maintenance from TSA. I think you all are getting worked up over nothing but a rumor. I will eat a big crow sandwhich if anyone can prove me wrong. So how about no more "I heard this, or that" from an anonymous source. When you are ready to quote a press release or Rick Leach for that matter and substantiate this rumor then feel free to bring it to everyones attention.

RuttR
11-06-2008, 07:13 PM
As per the riddle job fair, where is the alpa of old. They should position the most senior Alpa official at the booth next to them. And every pilot that walks up to the gojet table, should then be greated by alpa with a handshake, and told this story.

Best idea I heard all night!

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 07:15 PM
How can we trust you and what youuuu are saying???? Are you really captaincarl? I hope you dont come this forum and expect to get cold hard facts, facts you can wrap your fingers around and taste….because you are not going to get it here. We can lie and b!tch at each other all night long and tomorrow I’ll come knocking on your cockpit door asking for a ride. We’ll shake hands, exchange smiles, and we won't think anything of it.

I am easing up. I just wanted to put a cap on these "unfounded" rumors until we have some more facts from "reliable" sources. It was getting a little out of control. There were a bunch of guys who were ready to "burn this mother down" and "set-up strike offices of their own" and I don't want things getting out of control without some cold, hard facts.

If you're going to burn a ship, there are two prerequisites:
1. Tell me, so I can get out.
2. Don't burn the ship illegally or we might all end up without jobs.

RuttR
11-06-2008, 07:16 PM
Remember guys, Airline Pilot Central is completely anonymous. Any whack-job (or management) can create a bogus profile and start spreading bogus rumors just to get one pilot group fired up against another. Management would love nothing more than for us to do something stupid in these very trying times. Everyone keep a cool head and, please, for all that is holy, DO NOT DO ANYTHING STUPID TOMORROW.


This sounds like something management would say....is this DG?

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 07:20 PM
This sounds like something management would say....is this DG?

Trust me, I'm not DG. DG notified me of my furlough three days ago. I'm easy to spot, you just have to know what you're looking for ;)

homelessguy1
11-06-2008, 07:23 PM
I have seen this posted several times, GoJet mechanics in the desert, heard it from a maintenance guy on the GoJet side...

So I will call B.S. on that, anyone informed or anyone who would be talking to a GoJet mechanic would know that GoJet doesn't 'have' mechanics. GoJet recieves contract maintenance from TSA. I think you all are getting worked up over nothing but a rumor. I will eat a big crow sandwhich if anyone can prove me wrong. So how about no more "I heard this, or that" from an anonymous source. When you are ready to quote a press release or Rick Leach for that matter and substantiate this rumor then feel free to bring it to everyones attention.

Well thanks Mr Obvious the mechanics are under TSH but this guy use to do stuff on the TSA side now he is doing stuff on the Go Jet side

TrevorW
11-06-2008, 07:29 PM
Well thanks Mr Obvious the mechanics are under TSH but this guy use to do stuff on the TSA side now he is doing stuff on the Go Jet side

There aren't seperate mechanics for the two different airframes Mr. Oblivious. Seriously, I doubt this would happen. GoJet's 50 seat rate pays better than TSA's, why would that be in HK's interest?

ExperimentalAB
11-06-2008, 07:44 PM
Holy crap guys. What a nightmare! ALPA had better get their ducks in a row on this one (if proved to be true, of course). That's beyond wrong :mad:

RiddleEagle18
11-06-2008, 07:48 PM
Holy crap guys. What a nightmare! ALPA had better get their ducks in a row on this one (if proved to be true, of course). That's beyond wrong :mad:


Beyond wrong true. But if there anything in TSA's scope to prevent it? What recourse will TSA ALPA have?

elcid79
11-06-2008, 08:00 PM
Holy crap guys. What a nightmare! ALPA had better get their ducks in a row on this one (if proved to be true, of course). That's beyond wrong :mad:

I was wondering when you were going to pop up. Hope things are better @ over at SkyWest! I shoulda come with you!!! Haha..

elcid79
11-06-2008, 08:02 PM
Beyond wrong true. But if there anything in TSA's scope to prevent it? What recourse will TSA ALPA have?

Contracts don't seam to matter anymore. Reference, bankruptcy rulings, reference GoJet....

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 08:12 PM
Beyond wrong true. But if there anything in TSA's scope to prevent it? What recourse will TSA ALPA have?

I just read and re-read our scope clause and here's what my interpretation of it is: Because GoJet exists already, we are screwed. It would appear that they can give GoJet whatever they want and not have to give a dang about us at Trans States. We would have to convince a judge that GoJet is an illegal entity to begin with and the company blatantly violated our legal binding contract simply by creating GoJet, even if they did do it through an umbrella company (TSH). I don't understand how any judge would not rule in our favor, unless of course he was being "persuaded" not to.

Here's our scope, you can interpret it for yourself:

"Section 1.B. Scope
1. All flying in and for the scheduled revenue passenger service of the Company and any wet lease or charter flying presently performed or to be performed in the future by the Company, shall be performed by active Pilots on the Trans States Airlines Pilots' Seniority List and shall be flown in accordance with all of the provisions of the Employment agreement and applicable amendments thereto between the Company and the Pilots as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (AFL-CIO).

2.Notwithstanding paragraph B.1. above, the Company may assign or contract out flying for periods not in excess of ninety (90) days if such conduct is necessary to accomplish the needs of the service of the Company, and the Company does not have sufficient aircraft or pilots available to perform the flying assigned or contracted out and no company pilot is furloughed as a result of such contracting out of such flying."

flaps 9
11-06-2008, 08:15 PM
There aren't seperate mechanics for the two different airframes Mr. Oblivious. Seriously, I doubt this would happen. GoJet's 50 seat rate pays better than TSA's, why would that be in HK's interest?


CRJ's in the desert are a dime a dozen. ERJ lease rates were set years ago. Even if the Blow Jet guys make more per hour, the lease rates on the used CRJ's would more than make up the difference:eek:

We can only hope this is a very bad rumor, but I wouldn't put it past HK and his band of thieves:mad:

RiddleEagle18
11-06-2008, 08:16 PM
I just read and re-read our scope clause and here's what my interpretation of it is: Because GoJet exists already, we are screwed. It would appear that they can give GoJet whatever they want and not have to give a dang about us at Trans States.

Here's our scope, you can interpret it for yourself:

"Section 1.B. Scope
1. All flying in and for the scheduled revenue passenger service of the Company and any wet lease or charter flying presently performed or to be performed in the future by the Company, shall be performed by active Pilots on the Trans States Airlines Pilots' Seniority List and shall be flown in accordance with all of the provisions of the Employment agreement and applicable amendments thereto between the Company and the Pilots as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (AFL-CIO).

2.Notwithstanding paragraph B.1. above, the Company may assign or contract out flying for periods not in excess of ninety (90) days if such conduct is necessary to accomplish the needs of the service of the Company, and the Company does not have sufficient aircraft or pilots available to perform the flying assigned or contracted out and no company pilot is furloughed as a result of such contracting out of such flying."

Your probably right on this one. Since the court already said that you are "two separate companies" Management would just argue that GoJets was awarded "new flying", while at the same time saying that TSA's contract has been cnx.

elcid79
11-06-2008, 08:17 PM
I just read and re-read our scope clause and here's what my interpretation of it is: Because GoJet exists already, we are screwed. It would appear that they can give GoJet whatever they want and not have to give a dang about us at Trans States.

Here's our scope, you can interpret it for yourself:

"Section 1.B. Scope
1. All flying in and for the scheduled revenue passenger service of the Company and any wet lease or charter flying presently performed or to be performed in the future by the Company, shall be performed by active Pilots on the Trans States Airlines Pilots' Seniority List and shall be flown in accordance with all of the provisions of the Employment agreement and applicable amendments thereto between the Company and the Pilots as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (AFL-CIO).

2.Notwithstanding paragraph B.1. above, the Company may assign or contract out flying for periods not in excess of ninety (90) days if such conduct is necessary to accomplish the needs of the service of the Company, and the Company does not have sufficient aircraft or pilots available to perform the flying assigned or contracted out and no company pilot is furloughed as a result of such contracting out of such flying."

Yeah, our scope doesnt even adress this scenario. It was obvious that this was comming once GJ got a 50 seater scale.. No wonder the company has been dragging there tails soo much on our contract.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 08:23 PM
Yeah, our scope doesnt even adress this scenario. It was obvious that this was comming once GJ got a 50 seater scale.. No wonder the company has been dragging there tails soo much on our contract.
http://dogandponyshowwebsite.com/files/images/Sinking_Ship.jpg
Look ou' me heartys, th' ship be sinkin' an' th' rats be fleein'! :mad:

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 08:32 PM
There aren't seperate mechanics for the two different airframes Mr. Oblivious. Seriously, I doubt this would happen. GoJet's 50 seat rate pays better than TSA's, why would that be in HK's interest?

Are you serious?!!? CA pay is the same. FO pay is the same except at GJ you make 30 instead of 25 2nd year then it's the same. Look it up on this site, the GJ contract is up.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 08:34 PM
Yeah, our scope doesnt even adress this scenario. It was obvious that this was comming once GJ got a 50 seater scale.. No wonder the company has been dragging there tails soo much on our contract.

Looking at the GJ contract on this site, theirs does. The scope is basically the same just the sentences are re-arranged. And the last paragraph says that in case the GJ senioirty list is merged with another list it should be done in a "fair" manner according to the rules. We'll see....

flynavyj
11-06-2008, 08:37 PM
only thing i can think of is removing E-145's, having one certificate, one aircraft type, and it gets rid of the 25+ year captains we have here, and replaces them with 3 year captains there....Think of the cost savings in that alone, you can give everyone over there a couple buck an hour raise, but trim the fat from our operation and do the same job......:mad:

undflyboy06
11-06-2008, 08:45 PM
I hope those rumors really aren't true, but I wouldn't be surprised if it really did happen.

Truth be told, GoJet is such a shi**y company that it isn't even worth it to work myself up on something that might or might not happen. I mean, how long has it been that TSA management has been telling the pilot group that a Chicago base is going to open up very soon. I'll believe it when I see it. TSA management and HoJet are so far below on the feces list that I won't even waste a second of my life when it comes to arguing with those pukes.

I tell you one thing.......if it comes to it that I do get the boot on Feb 5th, and because of their ultimate stupidity they furlough to many and have to do a recall......I'll walk into Randy's office, pull down my pants and leave a hot steamy dooby on his desk.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 08:47 PM
only thing i can think of is removing E-145's, having one certificate, one aircraft type, and it gets rid of the 25+ year captains we have here, and replaces them with 3 year captains there....Think of the cost savings in that alone, you can give everyone over there a couple buck an hour raise, but trim the fat from our operation and do the same job......:mad:

I doubt the CAs will go along with that but maybe that's the idea...

flynavyj
11-06-2008, 08:48 PM
As shown in a previous post, because Gojet is an established "second company" the contract is essentially worthless. I'm sure however that TSA pilots will be offered preferential hiring at Gojet, and we might even see a carrot dangled in front of our noses for part of our longevity (i say part, because there's no way the company would offer full longevity).They'd probably do this, with the hopes that it would help them staff their airline, by say giving you half longevity, 5 year = 2.5 years, etc. Straight to the left seat if you've got the time, etc. I'd doubt that you'd see all that many go, The ramp up would have to be somewhat slow to allow for the expansion, and would probably coincide with our shrinking of airframes (past the american ones) And is possible that a Jet for Jobs situation could be used to assist in the further staffing. Heck, if staffed with CQFO's, it'd be possible to staff the airline with furloughees and totally avoid the need for 75 or so riddle grads....And it'd probably still save $$ over having TSA around. :confused:

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 08:51 PM
I tell you one thing.......if it comes to it that I do get the boot on Feb 5th, and because of their ultimate stupidity they furlough to many and have to do a recall......I'll walk into Randy's office, pull down my pants and leave a hot steamy dooby on his desk.

:D Hahaha! That made me laugh, quite literally, out loud. I will hold you to that if they do try to recall us.

I hear something in the future... It sounds like... SSSSS... Starts with an "S."

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 08:54 PM
So you're saying they'll just get rid of the whole TSA seniority list rather than merging it with GJ??

Foxcow
11-06-2008, 08:55 PM
They have no incentive to merge the lists.

CaptainCarl
11-06-2008, 08:58 PM
So you're saying they'll just get rid of the whole TSA seniority list rather than merging it with GJ??

Why not? It would save them buku amounts of money. They would simply liquidate Trans States Airlines and transfer all our assets to GoJet. Something very similar happened at Swiss and Cross Air some years ago. I don't remember all the details but the short version goes like this: Swiss went "bankrupt," the umbrella company transferred everything from Swiss to Cross Air and renamed them SwissAir. I'll have to call my pops to get all the details, but I wouldn't be surprised if something very similar happens to us.

undflyboy06
11-06-2008, 09:04 PM
They have no incentive to merge the lists.

I know, that's what really baffles me. Anyone that doesn't have any brains in buisness will even agree that by having one seniority list, and 1 airframe instead of 2 will be cheaper in the long run. Hell, someone even posted that question on the website. Here it is:

If we no longer operate as AmericanConnection in St. Louis, would the company have an interest in merging flight attendant and pilot seniority lists for GoJet and Trans States and operating both companies under one certificate?

And the Answer:

In the event that we no longer have any AmericanConnection flying, we don’t view the above scenario as very likely. While the American scope limitations impacting Trans States Airlines was the driver that forced Trans States Holdings to make the decision to start GoJet, merging these two airlines now would only bring greater operating costs without offsetting efficiencies. This would be an undesirable outcome in any economic environment, especially the one currently impacting our industry. Both airlines operate completely different aircraft. The integration expense, along with the increase in operating costs driven by multiple fleet types, would drastically go up, thereby putting the organization in a noncompetitive position in the marketplace.


I mean can anyone tell me how that logic will make any sense?

Foxcow
11-06-2008, 09:05 PM
They lose the whipsaw.

JayHub
11-06-2008, 09:11 PM
you know what...I can see them holding us over a barrel on this one....'Merge or find yourself a new job'

I don't know how they'll deal with the two seniority lists....they may need to incorporate some kinda seat lock

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 09:11 PM
I know, that's what really baffles me. Anyone that doesn't have any brains in buisness will even agree that by having one seniority list, and 1 airframe instead of 2 will be cheaper in the long run. Hell, someone even posted that question on the website. Here it is:

If we no longer operate as AmericanConnection in St. Louis, would the company have an interest in merging flight attendant and pilot seniority lists for GoJet and Trans States and operating both companies under one certificate?

And the Answer:

In the event that we no longer have any AmericanConnection flying, we don’t view the above scenario as very likely. While the American scope limitations impacting Trans States Airlines was the driver that forced Trans States Holdings to make the decision to start GoJet, merging these two airlines now would only bring greater operating costs without offsetting efficiencies. This would be an undesirable outcome in any economic environment, especially the one currently impacting our industry. Both airlines operate completely different aircraft. The integration expense, along with the increase in operating costs driven by multiple fleet types, would drastically go up, thereby putting the organization in a noncompetitive position in the marketplace.


I mean can anyone tell me how that logic will make any sense?


I think this was written before the 50 seat deal. I don't think they intend to have Gojet flying 50 seaters, while TSA is flying 50 seaters. I just don't get it. Why would they even get CRJ2s, that doesn't make any sense especially since we're still very committed to the ERJs for UA. Maybe Mesa is going under and they want to be ready for the CRJ2s...

flynavyj
11-06-2008, 09:33 PM
I know, that's what really baffles me. Anyone that doesn't have any brains in buisness will even agree that by having one seniority list, and 1 airframe instead of 2 will be cheaper in the long run. Hell, someone even posted that question on the website. Here it is:

If we no longer operate as AmericanConnection in St. Louis, would the company have an interest in merging flight attendant and pilot seniority lists for GoJet and Trans States and operating both companies under one certificate?

And the Answer:

In the event that we no longer have any AmericanConnection flying, we don’t view the above scenario as very likely. While the American scope limitations impacting Trans States Airlines was the driver that forced Trans States Holdings to make the decision to start GoJet, merging these two airlines now would only bring greater operating costs without offsetting efficiencies. This would be an undesirable outcome in any economic environment, especially the one currently impacting our industry. Both airlines operate completely different aircraft. The integration expense, along with the increase in operating costs driven by multiple fleet types, would drastically go up, thereby putting the organization in a noncompetitive position in the marketplace.


I mean can anyone tell me how that logic will make any sense?

I see the logic. The company has no interest in merging the seniority list because they'd just as soon get rid of the TSA list all together. That'll achieve what you just talked about. Sell or return the ERJ's we currently have, use the extra $$ to buy/lease CRJ's for Gojet. One pilot group, One aircraft type.

Rick Leach has often said the same B.S. about wanting one fleet type. I can remember him saying that at a town hall meeting a couple years back, and i thought it was kind of strange because TSH currently has two fleet types. The MX costs are higher because of TSA/GoJet ,different aircraft, same mechanics. Financially, if you were trying to serve a 50 seat market and a 70 seat market, it'd make much more sense to do it in a CRJ vs. the ERJ. Common type ratings alone would save tons of $$. Sure there's some commonality in MX parts, and MX training too. That's the best sense of it i can make.

Also, merging the lists doesn't cut out another large cost factor, the TSA pilot group. The company has been around longer, has more senior pilots, more lifers with more years in the company. I'm sure they're thinking that paying these guys who would have retired in say 2-5 years, for an additional 5 years of service (age 65) while they're at the top of the pay scale would be another financial burden that wouldn't allow hullie to buy his daughter a new pony. So now, you're getting 1 pilot list, 1 certificate, 1 aircraft type, and NO senior pilots....has to be some cost savings in there somewhere.

Purpleanga
11-06-2008, 09:45 PM
I highly doubt though many of the senior pilots would even continue flying if they have to fly for Gojet, I'm sure they know that so they'll probably dangle some kind of carrot. Well... this is why we have unions. Let's hope for the best.

FlyByCable
11-07-2008, 07:17 AM
Will GoJet give preferential interviews for TSA pilots?

JayHub
11-07-2008, 07:31 AM
Any news from today's meeting.....???

expectholding
11-07-2008, 08:43 AM
...............

JayHub
11-07-2008, 08:45 AM
are any of the flight mangers talking?.....

Copperhed51
11-07-2008, 09:16 AM
Us furloughed guys who have nothing better to do than to watch this unfold second by second are starved for news...

CaptainCarl
11-07-2008, 09:58 AM
You think you're starved for news. I'm sitting in the crew room and nobody knows jack. Some say its 100% rumor and BS, others say it's 100% true verified by "sources."

Mach93
11-07-2008, 10:29 AM
My sources says that this is grade A BS. Gojet has no intention to take any flying away from TSA. I think that its just someone trying to whip up an anti-gojet frenzy again. From what I read here its seems to have worked. You would think that if this was really going down that a VARS message would have been issued.

Positive_Rate
11-07-2008, 10:49 AM
My sources says that this is grade A BS. Gojet has no intention to take any flying away from TSA. I think that its just someone trying to whip up an anti-gojet frenzy again. From what I read here its seems to have worked. You would think that if this was really going down that a VARS message would have been issued.

Even though it was confirmed by a MEC member...He might have been wrong, too, but why would they be having the "emergency meeting" today if at least some of it wasn't true.

Copperhed51
11-07-2008, 12:04 PM
Even though it was confirmed by a MEC member...He might have been wrong, too, but why would they be having the "emergency meeting" today if at least some of it wasn't true.

Well, if it makes any difference, the MEC member I called last night was AF and he couldn't confirm or deny anything. He seems like he's somewhat important and would know things so...

BigGuns
11-07-2008, 01:39 PM
4 pages of hysteria all on a pure rumor….?? You guys are worse than a bunch of 6th grade girls…

crustacean
11-07-2008, 01:40 PM
4 pages of hysteria all on a pure rumor….?? You guys are worse than a bunch of 6th grade girls…

QFT. Quoted For Truth.

JiffyLube
11-07-2008, 02:24 PM
Holy rumor thread Batman... Calm down! Why would anybody be adding 50 seat jets in this environment? News Flash!!! Every airline out there is parking 50 seaters b/c of high RASM.

Copperhed51
11-07-2008, 02:38 PM
Well, if nothing else this has provided some entertainment for a day or so. In my experience, almost every rumor at TSA has proven to be true, as long as it is bad news. All the good news rumors turned out to be false. Except for the one where they told us we'd only be on reserve for a couple of months...that turned out to be very true for me.

250 or point 65
11-07-2008, 03:27 PM
Holy rumor thread Batman... Calm down! Why would anybody be adding 50 seat jets in this environment? News Flash!!! Every airline out there is parking 50 seaters b/c of high RASM.

Hmm, well if everyone's parking 50 seaters and United has 50 seat flying available, I wonder what a discount Hulas could get on these?

Cheap 200's from the desert or the current fleet of 145's....this isn't rocket science.

Where would he get 70 seaters anyway?

Purpleanga
11-07-2008, 03:36 PM
H\

Cheap 200's from the desert or the current fleet of 145's....?

The current fleet of 145s, he already has them, not to mention excess of trained pilots, wich he won't have unless he hires street pilots spending time and money on CRJ training.

JiffyLube
11-07-2008, 04:18 PM
It would be insanely expensive for Huly to add desert a/c and park wholly owned a/c. It is still a different type to add to the fleet/ops spec. Just b/c it is the same pilot type rating doesn’t make it 100% the same a/c. Just ask operators of the dc-9/md-80/md-90. I think this it getting blown way out of proportion.

BTW…It’s Friday…. Where’s that BIG ANOUNCEMNET!? I been waiting ever Friday for 20 years.

boilerpilot
11-07-2008, 04:30 PM
It would be insanely expensive for Huly to add desert a/c and park wholly owned a/c. It is still a different type to add to the fleet/ops spec. Just b/c it is the same pilot type rating doesn’t make it 100% the same a/c. Just ask operators of the dc-9/md-80/md-90. I think this it getting blown way out of proportion.

BTW…It’s Friday…. Where’s that BIG ANOUNCEMNET!? I been waiting ever Friday for 20 years.

wrong. First about the aircraft, which hulas leases, he does not own them. It makes perfect sense to simply allow the TSA contracts (which have always been tied to leases) to expire and add 50 seaters to gojet, which can be aquired for fire sale rates due to the economy right now.

You're also wrong about the pilot ratings, which can be taken care of in two days of differences training. Viola, now you have a new less senior airline with a weaker union (if that's even possible) that has a much better relationship with management, rather than the bitter group at TSA. I think it's despicable, but if you look at it from a perspective of not giving a rats *** about employees, it all falls into place.

250 or point 65
11-07-2008, 04:33 PM
wholly owned a/c.

by who? leases are coming up.

and think what he'll save in our contract negotiations? we may have the opportunity to strike as a more friendly NMB comes in, but we now have no leg to stand on since the guys at GoJet are willing to fly for less. How could we ask for a raise?

This is a win/win for Hulas. If he keeps TSA around in a smaller capacity, he has two pilot groups...one of which is willing to undersell the other. If he dissolves TSA, he gets rid of ALPA

250 or point 65
11-07-2008, 04:37 PM
BTW, this would help during this discussion. I've heard that GJ has a 50 seat payscale on their new contract. If this is true, does anyone know the pay rates?

Copperhed51
11-07-2008, 04:43 PM
I bet Foxcow is sitting back laughing his arse off at the hysteria right now.

Copperhed51
11-07-2008, 05:28 PM
So I got an email from the TSA MEC that says the rumors are unconfirmed at this point and asks that everybody remain professional and just does their job right now. They are forming a strategic plan to address the issue and will give us info when it's available. I'd copy/paste the email but i'm not sure if that's kosher or not. Off to drink beer.

expectholding
11-07-2008, 05:40 PM
i guess ill be the one...its not something that would be bad to post at all. as a matter of fact, you said everythign almost word for word...

Trans States Pilots,

It has come to our attention that rumors on the property indicate GoJet airlines is purchasing 50-seat aircraft. This information has not been confirmed. Your MEC requests that each and every one of you maintain your professionalism while this information is being investigated. At no time does the MEC condone any illegal job action, and your MEC asks all pilots to maintain all current practices.

Your MEC and ALPA staff are developing a strategic plan to address this situation and information will be released as it becomes available.

Trans States MEC

bryris
11-07-2008, 06:10 PM
i guess ill be the one...its not something that would be bad to post at all. as a matter of fact, you said everythign almost word for word...

Trans States Pilots,

It has come to our attention that rumors on the property indicate GoJet airlines is purchasing 50-seat aircraft. This information has not been confirmed. Your MEC requests that each and every one of you maintain your professionalism while this information is being investigated. At no time does the MEC condone any illegal job action, and your MEC asks all pilots to maintain all current practices.

Your MEC and ALPA staff are developing a strategic plan to address this situation and information will be released as it becomes available.

Trans States MEC

If I hold my breath on this one, its game over for me.

CaptainCarl
11-08-2008, 12:35 PM
wrong. First about the aircraft, which hulas leases, he does not own them. It makes perfect sense to simply allow the TSA contracts (which have always been tied to leases) to expire and add 50 seaters to gojet, which can be aquired for fire sale rates due to the economy right now.

You're also wrong about the pilot ratings, which can be taken care of in two days of differences training. Viola, now you have a new less senior airline with a weaker union (if that's even possible) that has a much better relationship with management, rather than the bitter group at TSA. I think it's despicable, but if you look at it from a perspective of not giving a rats *** about employees, it all falls into place.

I suspect pilots are Hulas' biggest expense right now. It would not surprise me at all if he liquidated Trans States in the near future. GoJet is going to ruin a lot of lives.

The end is neigh. :(

bryris
11-08-2008, 12:47 PM
I suspect pilots are Hulas' biggest expense right now. It would not surprise me at all if he liquidated Trans States in the near future. GoJet is going to ruin a lot of lives.

The end is neigh. :(

Its just a cut throat business. Its as the old adage says, "Its business not personal".

Since it is HIS company, it is within his rights to structure it however he sees fit. Based on these decisions, it will either succeed or fail...time will tell. Considering its on its 25th year of "aviation excellence" :confused:, I would tend to think that it will continue to survive. And, unfortunately, from the viewpoint of management only and with the current surplus of pilots out there on the street begging and hoping for a job, we're just a noisy flock, easily dealt with.

expectholding
11-08-2008, 01:30 PM
talked to a union rep last today about teleconference last night. he said the unions two sources of the rumor are
1)a mx guy that said 2 mx guys went to do pre-buys on crj-200's
2)flight safety saying they have been told to expect crj-200 training.

they have no confirmation of anything, and will be talking to the company about it in the upcoming week. fwiw, prater was in the teleconference too, so i don't know what kind of plan they are coming up with. probably nothing effective considering the nmb is still 2 rep vs. 1 dem til our pres elect is pres. even if we were to get released when that happens there is a 30 day cooling off period. by the time all that happens, ts could be gone and it could be all gj.

another thought is they don't screw us (unlikely) and combine the two and phase out the emb's and get crj's to have the common type fleet. just my opinion. or they may just be keeping their options open. who knows, its impossible to predict this place.

JayHub
11-08-2008, 03:49 PM
talked to a union rep last today about teleconference last night. he said the unions two sources of the rumor are
1)a mx guy that said 2 mx guys went to do pre-buys on crj-200's
2)flight safety saying they have been told to expect crj-200 training.

they have no confirmation of anything, and will be talking to the company about it in the upcoming week. fwiw, prater was in the teleconference too, so i don't know what kind of plan they are coming up with. probably nothing effective considering the nmb is still 2 rep vs. 1 dem til our pres elect is pres. even if we were to get released when that happens there is a 30 day cooling off period. by the time all that happens, ts could be gone and it could be all gj.

another thought is they don't screw us (unlikely) and combine the two and phase out the emb's and get crj's to have the common type fleet. just my opinion. or they may just be keeping their options open. who knows, its impossible to predict this place.

Everything i've heard outta mx has proven true...:mad:

dontsurf
11-08-2008, 03:54 PM
Either way I somehow doubt ALPA is going to let GJ fly what should be our airplanes.

hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

award for funniest post ever on apc forums! hahahahahaha. that made my whole month! that is absolutely hilarious!!!!! i didn't even read the other pages of this post, so maybe someone else already picked up on this. but that is just amazingly hilarious.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaha. unbelievable!!!

contrails
11-08-2008, 03:56 PM
hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

award for funniest post ever on apc forums! hahahahahaha. that made my whole month! that is absolutely hilarious!!!!! i didn't even read the other pages of this post, so maybe someone else already picked up on this. but that is just amazingly hilarious.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaha. unbelievable!!!

I don't know what your deal is, but there is not much ALPA can legally do about it. :(

JayHub
11-08-2008, 04:02 PM
hahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

award for funniest post ever on apc forums! hahahahahaha. that made my whole month! that is absolutely hilarious!!!!! i didn't even read the other pages of this post, so maybe someone else already picked up on this. but that is just amazingly hilarious.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaha. unbelievable!!!

Naive maybe..but hilarious no.....People are loosing jobs and if he/she wants to hang onto what little hope he/she has then so be it.

POPA
11-08-2008, 07:47 PM
The end is neigh. :(

You're saying the end is a horse?

I still laugh every time I hear about DG the flight manager. He was in initial class with a few of us on here.

Purpleanga
11-08-2008, 07:56 PM
Not much ALPA can do about it legally? Then what do we have ALPA for, what do we have contracts for, what do we have unions for??? You can't tell me that at the creation of Gojet our union didn't expect this to happen right? Are you guys suggesting that our union didn't think about what's to stop Hulas from transfering over everything to Gojet Airlines????

POPA
11-08-2008, 08:02 PM
Not much ALPA can do about it legally? Then what do we have ALPA for, what do we have contracts for, what do we have unions for??? You can't tell me that at the creation of Gojet our union didn't expect this to happen right? Are you guys suggesting that our union didn't think about what's to stop Hulas from transfering over everything to Gojet Airlines????

If you think ALPA is going to stand in the way of an expansion at GoJet, you CLEARLY don't know the history behind how they got started in the first place.

wmupilot69
11-08-2008, 08:16 PM
Everything i've heard outta mx has proven true...:mad:

Not even close. I heard before the fuel mess we were getting 10+ planes from Mesa, all this extra flying, even ATRs on the property. I'm not saying this isn't true, but just because mx said it don't necessarily I believe it.

ehe2
11-09-2008, 01:16 AM
Not even close. I heard before the fuel mess we were getting 10+ planes from Mesa, all this extra flying, even ATRs on the property. I'm not saying this isn't true, but just because mx said it don't necessarily I believe it.

...only the bad rumors are true.:(
We did have 10 OPTIONS to lease the freedom rj's, unitll mesa won the injunction against delta. ATR did take our management on a test flight. IF TSAH would get props, it is likely they would choose the ATR because there are already manuals, training and people typed it the a/c. (It would make the proving runs easier). Untill we are completely done with american we can not get ATR-72's again. (Our old ATR's were grandfathered in by serial number).

CaptainCarl
11-09-2008, 04:51 AM
You're saying the end is a horse?

Old English saying... (?)... I think...

Either way, we are F'd* ;)

(*furloughed)

dorc
11-09-2008, 05:53 AM
55-80 Passenger Seat Jet Aircraft
Captain
LONGEVITY DOS DOS + 1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4 DOS + 5
1st year $ 60.00 $ 60.90 $ 61.81 $ 62.74 $ 63.68 $ 64.64
2nd year $ 61.47 $ 62.39 $ 63.33 $ 64.28 $ 65.24 $ 66.22
3rd year $ 62.98 $ 63.92 $ 64.88 $ 65.86 $ 66.84 $ 67.85
4th year $ 64.52 $ 65.49 $ 66.47 $ 67.47 $ 68.48 $ 69.51
5th year $ 66.10 $ 67.09 $ 68.10 $ 69.12 $ 70.16 $ 71.21
6th year $ 68.07 $ 69.09 $ 70.13 $ 71.18 $ 72.25 $ 73.33
7th year $ 70.14 $ 71.19 $ 72.26 $ 73.34 $ 74.44 $ 75.56
8th year $ 72.27 $ 73.35 $ 74.45 $ 75.57 $ 76.70 $ 77.86
9th year $ 74.47 $ 75.59 $ 76.72 $ 77.87 $ 79.04 $ 80.23
10th year $ 76.76 $ 77.91 $ 79.08 $ 80.27 $ 81.47 $ 82.69
11th year $ 79.09 $ 80.28 $ 81.48 $ 82.70 $ 83.94 $ 85.20
12th year $ 81.69 $ 82.92 $ 84.16 $ 85.42 $ 86.70 $ 88.00
13th year $ 83.99 $ 85.25 $ 86.53 $ 87.83 $ 89.14 $ 90.48
14th year $ 86.55 $ 87.85 $ 89.17 $ 90.50 $ 91.86 $ 93.24
15th year $ 90.00 $ 91.35 $ 92.72 $ 94.11 $ 95.52 $ 96.96
First Officer
LONGEVITY DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4 DOS + 5
1st year $23.00 $23.35 $23.70 $24.05 $24.41 $24.78
2nd year $30.00 $30.45 $30.91 $31.37 $31.84 $32.32
3rd year $34.00 $34.51 $35.03 $35.55 $36.09 $36.63
4th year $35.00 $35.53 $36.06 $36.60 $37.15 $37.70

dorc
11-09-2008, 05:55 AM
In the event the Company places into revenue service jet aircraft with fewer than
55 passenger seats, the hourly rates applicable to such aircraft will be as follows:

Captain
LONGEVITY DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4 DOS + 5
1st year $ 55.05 $55.88 $56.71 $57.56 $58.43 $59.30
2nd year $ 56.82 $57.67 $58.54 $59.42 $60.31 $61.21
3rd year $ 58.57 $59.45 $60.34 $61.25 $62.16 $63.10
4th year $ 60.33 $61.23 $62.15 $63.09 $64.03 $64.99
5th year $ 62.08 $63.01 $63.96 $64.92 $65.89 $66.88
6th year $ 63.84 $64.80 $65.77 $66.76 $67.76 $68.77
7th year $ 65.81 $66.80 $67.80 $68.82 $69.85 $70.90
8th year $ 68.00 $69.02 $70.06 $71.11 $72.17 $73.26
9th year $ 70.02 $71.07 $72.14 $73.22 $74.32 $75.43
10th year $ 72.19 $73.27 $74.37 $75.49 $76.62 $77.77
11th year $ 74.17 $75.28 $76.41 $77.56 $78.72 $79.90
12th year $ 76.49 $77.64 $78.80 $79.98 $81.18 $82.40
13th year $ 78.72 $79.90 $81.10 $82.32 $83.55 $84.80
14th year $ 81.19 $82.41 $83.64 $84.90 $86.17 $87.46
15th year $ 81.54 $82.76 $84.00 $85.26 $86.54 $87.84

First Officer
LONGEVITY DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4 DOS + 5
1st year $23.00 $23.35 $23.70 $24.05 $24.41 $24.78
2nd year $30.00 $30.45 $30.91 $31.37 $31.84 $32.32
3rd year $34.00 $34.51 $35.03 $35.55 $36.09 $36.63
4th year $35.00 $35.53 $36.06 $36.60 $37.15 $37.70

gtippin
11-09-2008, 06:48 AM
Not trying to get off thread here but I an observation. I am a part 91/135 corporate pilot currently unemployed looking for work. I am doing some contract work but things being the way they are not getting much. Not in a position where I can move. Now dont get me wrong I chose this side of Aviation and I really prefer it. I do however want to keep flying as long as I can and a comutable position would be a good fit for me. Not many airlines are hiring and if I were to get hired by GoJet I would be scum and a scab and any number of other of unethical things a person can be called because " I would be taking someone else's lively hood". My question is why is it ok to do it to us in the 91/135. So many of these guys wanted to fly for the airlines and now that the big F has put so many out on the street they are flooding into our jobs. I understand the desire to keep flying but here lately every interview I have attended there were several regionial guys there and in at least 3 cases the job went to them because they took the job for less money. If that happened in the 121 world everyone would be all up in arms but I guess its ok when it happens in 91. I dont bear anyone ill will but I think you should look at the whole picture before you start calling names.

Herbie
11-09-2008, 08:39 AM
Not trying to get off thread here but I an observation. I am a part 91/135 corporate pilot currently unemployed looking for work. I am doing some contract work but things being the way they are not getting much. Not in a position where I can move. Now dont get me wrong I chose this side of Aviation and I really prefer it. I do however want to keep flying as long as I can and a comutable position would be a good fit for me. Not many airlines are hiring and if I were to get hired by GoJet I would be scum and a scab and any number of other of unethical things a person can be called because " I would be taking someone else's lively hood". My question is why is it ok to do it to us in the 91/135. So many of these guys wanted to fly for the airlines and now that the big F has put so many out on the street they are flooding into our jobs. I understand the desire to keep flying but here lately every interview I have attended there were several regionial guys there and in at least 3 cases the job went to them because they took the job for less money. If that happened in the 121 world everyone would be all up in arms but I guess its ok when it happens in 91. I dont bear anyone ill will but I think you should look at the whole picture before you start calling names.

I doubt that they are taking the jobs for less money. It is just a simple matter that they have more experience and they will be easier to insure in a 91 corporate environment or a Part 135 environment. Put yourself in the shoes of the guy doing the hiring. Do you take a guy for a freight dog job that has little instrument experience and barely makes the 135 mins, or the furloughed airline pilot with a fews years experience flying complex jet airplanes?

fjetter
11-09-2008, 09:30 AM
I doubt that they are taking the jobs for less money. It is just a simple matter that they have more experience and they will be easier to insure in a 91 corporate environment or a Part 135 environment. Put yourself in the shoes of the guy doing the hiring. Do you take a guy for a freight dog job that has little instrument experience and barely makes the 135 mins, or the furloughed airline pilot with a fews years experience flying complex jet airplanes?

I think you misunderstood what gtippin was saying. I think he was saying that every interview he goes to for a flight department or jet owner, he sees plenty of furloughed regional guys. Based on the post I'm inferring that he also has complex jet time and might be type rated in a couple of aircraft. The reason he may not be getting the job is that the regional guys are getting the job because they will fly for less (possibly below avg 91/135 rates) than gtippin.

Purpleanga
11-09-2008, 09:58 AM
In the event the Company places into revenue service jet aircraft with fewer than
55 passenger seats, the hourly rates applicable to such aircraft will be as follows:

Captain
LONGEVITY DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4 DOS + 5
1st year $ 55.05 $55.88 $56.71 $57.56 $58.43 $59.30
2nd year $ 56.82 $57.67 $58.54 $59.42 $60.31 $61.21
3rd year $ 58.57 $59.45 $60.34 $61.25 $62.16 $63.10
4th year $ 60.33 $61.23 $62.15 $63.09 $64.03 $64.99
5th year $ 62.08 $63.01 $63.96 $64.92 $65.89 $66.88
6th year $ 63.84 $64.80 $65.77 $66.76 $67.76 $68.77
7th year $ 65.81 $66.80 $67.80 $68.82 $69.85 $70.90
8th year $ 68.00 $69.02 $70.06 $71.11 $72.17 $73.26
9th year $ 70.02 $71.07 $72.14 $73.22 $74.32 $75.43
10th year $ 72.19 $73.27 $74.37 $75.49 $76.62 $77.77
11th year $ 74.17 $75.28 $76.41 $77.56 $78.72 $79.90
12th year $ 76.49 $77.64 $78.80 $79.98 $81.18 $82.40
13th year $ 78.72 $79.90 $81.10 $82.32 $83.55 $84.80
14th year $ 81.19 $82.41 $83.64 $84.90 $86.17 $87.46
15th year $ 81.54 $82.76 $84.00 $85.26 $86.54 $87.84

First Officer
LONGEVITY DOS DOS+1 DOS+2 DOS+3 DOS+4 DOS + 5
1st year $23.00 $23.35 $23.70 $24.05 $24.41 $24.78
2nd year $30.00 $30.45 $30.91 $31.37 $31.84 $32.32
3rd year $34.00 $34.51 $35.03 $35.55 $36.09 $36.63
4th year $35.00 $35.53 $36.06 $36.60 $37.15 $37.70

You could have just said GJ 50 seats pay the same as TSA, except for 2nd year FO.

gtippin
11-09-2008, 10:19 AM
Hey guys thanks for not blasting me. I am currently sitting at about 4100tt with 5 type ratings and 1500 turbine pic.all jet, also current 135. Please understand I dont begrudge anyone the ability to make a living.

expectholding
11-09-2008, 11:10 AM
not one person has responded with the reason not to go to gj. the difference between that and a 121 guy taking another job in 91/135 is that gj was created as an alter-ego by the same holding company, to circumvent the tsa pilot group. and now, every new hire there directly results in a trans states (the "sister" company) furlough, especially if this "rumor" of 50 seaters at gj comes to be true. that is the difference. not blasting you, but there is no comparison between the two. they were created and are still used to hold the tsa pilot group down.

RuttR
11-09-2008, 01:12 PM
What would stop TSA Holdings or any other company for that matter, from just creating another company? You would never get senior; you may never see 5 year pay.

Companies would just start a new company and tell everyone to move over and start them back at first year pay...over and over and over....

flynavyj
11-09-2008, 01:48 PM
What would stop TSA Holdings or any other company for that matter, from just creating another company? You would never get senior; you may never see 5 year pay.

Companies would just start a new company and tell everyone to move over and start them back at first year pay...over and over and over....

Scope.

TSA does have a no alter-ego clause in our contract, however, it wasn't airtight enough to float in the judges court. Now that Gojet is already in operation, there is nothing in the TSA contract, to help ensure our jobs over theirs, or our airplanes and flying over TSH airplanes and flying...least nothing i've found.

TBucket
11-09-2008, 02:02 PM
I think it's funny how the Gojet guys would come out of the woodwork on every other thread saying they were "Only created because TSA couldn't fly 70 seaters!"... I'm guessing now everyone understands what BS that argument was... They're there solely to take our jobs, and now they're doing it literally as well.

TheOak
11-09-2008, 03:12 PM
I agree. enough gojet talk though... please

if anymore gojet talk on here, just ignore for the sake of this thread

maxjet
11-09-2008, 04:09 PM
I think it's funny how the Gojet guys would come out of the woodwork on every other thread saying they were "Only created because TSA couldn't fly 70 seaters!"... I'm guessing now everyone understands what BS that argument was... They're there solely to take our jobs, and now they're doing it literally as well.

Quit your whining! I get so tired of hearing how hard you guys and gals at TSA have it! Hulas has not broken any rules nor have the pilots broken any rules. Get used to it, YOU ARE A COMMUTER PILOT. Even under the worst of conditions you still have it better than the commuter pilots of just 10 years ago had it. Funny how you didn't think much about taking a job which stole mainline routes. You and your ilk have done more damage to the public perception of the plight of airline flight crews with your whining, ipods, no hats, disrespect for a clean and pressed uniform, and general I don't care attitude than any alter ego company could possibly do. I will say one thing positive about Go Jets and that is that when I was in ORD I never saw ONE of their pilots who was not neatly and profesionally dressed. If you don't like the situation you are in then either change it, shut up about it, or quit.

Herbie
11-09-2008, 05:33 PM
Quit your whining! I get so tired of hearing how hard you guys and gals at TSA have it! Hulas has not broken any rules nor have the pilots broken any rules. Get used to it, YOU ARE A COMMUTER PILOT. Even under the worst of conditions you still have it better than the commuter pilots of just 10 years ago had it. Funny how you didn't think much about taking a job which stole mainline routes. You and your ilk have done more damage to the public perception of the plight of airline flight crews with your whining, ipods, no hats, disrespect for a clean and pressed uniform, and general I don't care attitude than any alter ego company could possibly do. I will say one thing positive about Go Jets and that is that when I was in ORD I never saw ONE of their pilots who was not neatly and profesionally dressed. If you don't like the situation you are in then either change it, shut up about it, or quit.

Yeah, and I'll bet that you never saw their badges either as they were neatly tucked away in their shirt pocket. And please get off of the "We stole mainline routes" routine. The mainline pilots didn't do much to stop it and it was the mainline airline that gave it away, I personally didn't take it from them (you). Bottom line is that in 4 months time, I will be sitting on the street with 2700 hours and about 1500 in the jet while some newbie out of ERAU with 200 hours and a 717 type will be taking a job flying for our alter ego airline. Don't tell me to quit whining, I work for Uncle Hulie, I've earned that right.

johnso29
11-09-2008, 05:41 PM
I'll remind many people that A LOT of scope was lost through bankruptcy contracts which were REJECTED by pilot groups, but so kindfully SHOVED down their throats by Bankruptcy Judges. Not ALL regional flying was GIVEN away by mainline pilots.

That being said, I sympathize with TSA pilots. HK is a SCUMBAG.

flynavyj
11-09-2008, 08:01 PM
Well, talked to my buddy in the hanger, who gave me some news on Gojet getting more CRJ-700's quite a while back. He hadn't heard any rumors of them getting CR2's until a couple minutes before i talked to him. And said it apparently is just floating around the pilot ranks, and as he knows, there's no one from the hanger running around the desert do pre-buy's on old Canadair jets either....

On the contrary, one of the other pilots i know, did inform me of his sources, and they sound somewhat legitimate, especially being that there was the "emergency" meeting, and the e-mail TSA received from the union of "we can't confirm , or, deny anything"....I'd Rather they just deny it and put our qualms to rest, or, confirm it so the pilot group can burn the place down....either way, it's better than the wait and see approach....that ranks right up there with FLY NOW....GRIEVE LATER!

mking84
11-09-2008, 10:27 PM
Quit your whining! I get so tired of hearing how hard you guys and gals at TSA have it! Hulas has not broken any rules nor have the pilots broken any rules. Get used to it, YOU ARE A COMMUTER PILOT. Even under the worst of conditions you still have it better than the commuter pilots of just 10 years ago had it. Funny how you didn't think much about taking a job which stole mainline routes. You and your ilk have done more damage to the public perception of the plight of airline flight crews with your whining, ipods, no hats, disrespect for a clean and pressed uniform, and general I don't care attitude than any alter ego company could possibly do. I will say one thing positive about Go Jets and that is that when I was in ORD I never saw ONE of their pilots who was not neatly and profesionally dressed. If you don't like the situation you are in then either change it, shut up about it, or quit.

Well said!

Purpleanga
11-09-2008, 10:35 PM
Well said!

Dude, he's dissing you.

Purpleanga
11-09-2008, 10:43 PM
Quit your whining! I get so tired of hearing how hard you guys and gals at TSA have it! Hulas has not broken any rules nor have the pilots broken any rules.

He's only trying to get rid of an ALPA carrier and transfer everything to a union busting airline.

Get used to it, YOU ARE A COMMUTER PILOT. Even under the worst of conditions you still have it better than the commuter pilots of just 10 years ago had it.

And with the same pay and work rules. We just fly jets.

Funny how you didn't think much about taking a job which stole mainline routes.

The day you can fly a mainline jet without bankrupting your airline from ORD to MLI, you can have MY job.

You and your ilk have done more damage to the public perception of the plight of airline flight crews with your whining, ipods, no hats, disrespect for a clean and pressed uniform, and general I don't care attitude \

Yea Ok. The majority of us are professionals. I've seen Fedex pilots with dirty uniforms, what is your point.

I will say one thing positive about Go Jets and that is that when I was in ORD I never saw ONE of their pilots who was not neatly and profesionally dressed. If you don't like the situation you are in then either change it, shut up about it, or quit.

It's hard to do any of that when we have to deal with "well dressed" union busting alter ego pilots isn't it?



--------------------

Herbie
11-10-2008, 04:45 AM
--------------------

Well said my friend, well said.

As for my previous post, trump it up to a very long day and the fact that I am tired of hearing more bad news every time that I show up for work.

Maxjet,

I won't say that I don't understand where you may be coming from, but the fact is that times have changed since the good ole days of flying and the regionals were a huge part of that change. Pilots bichering at pilots about who stole what routes is a pointless fight that no one will ever win. What myself and my compadres at TSA are talking about are not losing routes, but losing our jobs to an airline that was created to circumvent our CBA. All of us pilots, not just TSA, have sacrificed a lot to do what we do for a living. It is really a kick in the pants to have to think about losing your job so your alter-ego airline can replace you with a pilot who has benn flying for probably not even a year, and then to have somebody tell you not to whine about just adds insult to serious injury. Nine years of flying and this is what I have to show for it. And I know that I am not alone. Bottom line is that pilots need to be helping each other in these times, not blaming them for things that happened in the past.

eaglefly
11-10-2008, 05:57 AM
Quit your whining! I get so tired of hearing how hard you guys and gals at TSA have it! Hulas has not broken any rules nor have the pilots broken any rules. Get used to it, YOU ARE A COMMUTER PILOT. Even under the worst of conditions you still have it better than the commuter pilots of just 10 years ago had it. Funny how you didn't think much about taking a job which stole mainline routes. You and your ilk have done more damage to the public perception of the plight of airline flight crews with your whining, ipods, no hats, disrespect for a clean and pressed uniform, and general I don't care attitude than any alter ego company could possibly do. I will say one thing positive about Go Jets and that is that when I was in ORD I never saw ONE of their pilots who was not neatly and profesionally dressed. If you don't like the situation you are in then either change it, shut up about it, or quit.

Maybe that's because many of them are 23 years old, have 500 hours, are willing to work for peanuts if they can fly a shiny jet because they have no clue (and are not interested in getting one) why shiny 70-seat airliners pay peanuts and require exhausting duty days.

Maybe it's because people like you are so willing to agree with those making good money off of them (management and owners) that these jobs are esentially worthless stepping stone positions not worthy of decent treatment and compensation.

The truth does get very tiring sometimes and if the only worthwhile benefit is a shiny jet and a spiffy uniform, you've learned absolutely nothing.

eaglefly
11-10-2008, 05:59 AM
Well said!

Kids.

What 'ya gonna do ?

maxjet
11-10-2008, 09:06 AM
Maybe it's because people like you are so willing to agree with those making good money off of them (management and owners) that these jobs are esentially worthless stepping stone positions not worthy of decent treatment and compensation.[/quote]

I don't think that you understand my point. DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT!!!!!!!
If you think for one second that Hulas, Ornstein or any other CEO is going to not do something that benefits him and stays within the rules just because it may hurt your lively hood then you are not just naive but stupid! I felt sorry for the TSA folks when GoJets started. I was working out of the same crew room as them in IAD at the time. The solution at the time was simple. If what I was told by the TSA pilots is correct all that they had to do was have a large number of TSA pilots move over to GoJets and when they had sufficient numbers take control of the union. They could not get their MEC to condone such a plan because of ego's. The TSA MEC was "going to show that scumbag Hulas that he can't F with us" Well guess what, you lost! Now you want to come on here and get everybody to feel sorry for you because you are losing you job? You want people to persecute pilots who fly for GoJets? Why? Because of your inept union management? Another thing, quit blaming ALPA National for your problems. TSA problems are in house and due to poor Union behavior from both a fragmented membership and ego maniac union reps. you have given your jobs away just like you say mainline has given their routes away. One last thing. If you are in this business for the money then you are truly a fool. I personally love to fly which is why I persevere after 2 furloughs in the past year.

A10crewdawg
11-10-2008, 09:54 AM
Mine is 30mm, fires 4,000 rounds a minute, and is several inches long. Let's play the "who's is bigger" game. Crikey, I'm one of the furloughed guys from Hulas' camp........guess what, he's going to to whatever the hell he wants. Sorry to say it, but it's capitalism and it absolutely blows......but what am I going to be able to do unless a large group of my co-workers and others from all the other airlines put up or shut up at this point? If we want to make something happen, it has to be on a broad scale and people need to stop going back and forth with eachother. This very thing we keep arguing over will be the demise of any job security with an airline in the future, if not now.

Mason32
11-10-2008, 12:09 PM
With the lower and lower profit margins, it is just a matter of time before most regional flying will become wholly owned. The fact of allowing another administration to earn a profit that does not benefit the existing shareholders of the mainline company will eventually become an extremely hard sell...

The long long term results will be the eventual consolidation of the mainline companies with their regional wholly owned airlines....
1st the BOD's and shareholders will demand the money stay in house
2nd they will demand to reduce costs by consolidating services.....

Running two, or three, part 121 carriers side by side may help when you negotiate contracts, but if you compare the cost savings from only needing on mx dept, one dispatch, one SOC, one training center, and only one administration... the long term savings are incredible....

The smaller planes will become the entry level aircraft, and the current payscles will just stay about the same.... but the days of outside contractors being able to make a profit will eventually come to a close, as more mainline companies seek to keep every scrap of potential profit to themselves.

maxjet
11-10-2008, 02:53 PM
Mine is 30mm, fires 4,000 rounds a minute, and is several inches long. Let's play the "who's is bigger" game. Crikey, I'm one of the furloughed guys from Hulas' camp........guess what, he's going to to whatever the hell he wants. Sorry to say it, but it's capitalism and it absolutely blows......but what am I going to be able to do unless a large group of my co-workers and others from all the other airlines put up or shut up at this point? If we want to make something happen, it has to be on a broad scale and people need to stop going back and forth with eachother. This very thing we keep arguing over will be the demise of any job security with an airline in the future, if not now.

I couldn't agree with you more. By the way thanks for serving.

CaptainCarl
11-10-2008, 06:14 PM
Mine is 30mm, fires 4,000 rounds a minute, and is several inches long. Let's play the "who's is bigger" game. Crikey, I'm one of the furloughed guys from Hulas' camp........guess what, he's going to to whatever the hell he wants. Sorry to say it, but it's capitalism and it absolutely blows......but what am I going to be able to do unless a large group of my co-workers and others from all the other airlines put up or shut up at this point? If we want to make something happen, it has to be on a broad scale and people need to stop going back and forth with eachother. This very thing we keep arguing over will be the demise of any job security with an airline in the future, if not now.

I'm ready to put up. Lead the way.

freezingflyboy
11-10-2008, 06:22 PM
With the lower and lower profit margins, it is just a matter of time before most regional flying will become wholly owned. The fact of allowing another administration to earn a profit that does not benefit the existing shareholders of the mainline company will eventually become an extremely hard sell...

The long long term results will be the eventual consolidation of the mainline companies with their regional wholly owned airlines....
1st the BOD's and shareholders will demand the money stay in house
2nd they will demand to reduce costs by consolidating services.....

Running two, or three, part 121 carriers side by side may help when you negotiate contracts, but if you compare the cost savings from only needing on mx dept, one dispatch, one SOC, one training center, and only one administration... the long term savings are incredible....

The smaller planes will become the entry level aircraft, and the current payscles will just stay about the same.... but the days of outside contractors being able to make a profit will eventually come to a close, as more mainline companies seek to keep every scrap of potential profit to themselves.

Hahahaha...what delusional fantasy world are you living in?!?!:confused:

Do you HONESTLY think that the current system of sub-contracting small aircraft flying is a recent or accidental development? Do you HONESTLY think that if it was cheaper or more efficient for a mainline carrier to fly every route on their own metal that they would still rather outsource that flying? Lets pretend you're even half-right and mainline carriers go back to the system of wholly-owned regional partners, THEY ARE STILL OUTSOURCING FLYING. And you, as a pilot at that wholly-owned regional, are still nothing more than an entry-level B-scale employee.

Why would any mainline carrier want to take on the additional risk and cost of operating their own regional unit when they can contract out that flying for cheaper. Even if they go one step further and bring that regional flying completely in-house and operate the regional aircraft on the same certificate and seniority lists, all you've done is increase your total labor costs (longer longevity), your fleet costs now that you've added a new type to your operation AND your own management overhead now that your operation is that much larger.

When a mainline carrier contracts out with 2 or 3 or 4 different regional carriers they don't care that there are 2 or 3 or 4 duplicated managements or operations people or maintenance or whatever. All they are looking at is a simple cost-comparison. They look at what it would cost them to do the flying themselves (cost A) and what it would cost to pay a small-lift operator to do the flying (cost B). If cost A > cost B then that flying goes to the small-lift operator. It really is as simple as that. They don't call them bean-counters for nothing.

TBucket
11-10-2008, 06:43 PM
Back to the original topic, I talked to a maintenance guy today. He said the only thing he's heard about was Hojet getting some more 700s... He said it'd suck if they got 200's 'cause they were "pieces of crap".

Foxcow
11-10-2008, 08:04 PM
Hahahaha...what delusional fantasy world are you living in?!?!:confused:

Do you HONESTLY think that the current system of sub-contracting small aircraft flying is a recent or accidental development? Do you HONESTLY think that if it was cheaper or more efficient for a mainline carrier to fly every route on their own metal that they would still rather outsource that flying? Lets pretend you're even half-right and mainline carriers go back to the system of wholly-owned regional partners, THEY ARE STILL OUTSOURCING FLYING. And you, as a pilot at that wholly-owned regional, are still nothing more than an entry-level B-scale employee.

Why would any mainline carrier want to take on the additional risk and cost of operating their own regional unit when they can contract out that flying for cheaper. Even if they go one step further and bring that regional flying completely in-house and operate the regional aircraft on the same certificate and seniority lists, all you've done is increase your total labor costs (longer longevity), your fleet costs now that you've added a new type to your operation AND your own management overhead now that your operation is that much larger.

When a mainline carrier contracts out with 2 or 3 or 4 different regional carriers they don't care that there are 2 or 3 or 4 duplicated managements or operations people or maintenance or whatever. All they are looking at is a simple cost-comparison. They look at what it would cost them to do the flying themselves (cost A) and what it would cost to pay a small-lift operator to do the flying (cost B). If cost A > cost B then that flying goes to the small-lift operator. It really is as simple as that. They don't call them bean-counters for nothing.

I'm going to hang it all out there and say that Mason brings up some very good points. I agree that there will probably be some consolidation but hopefully not in the direction that Midwest went by getting mainline airplane to be flown by a regional carrier for regional rates thus maximizing profits even more (Mainline in name only).

I wish mainline would take back all of the flying that is not regional flying. STL-IAD, SLC-PIT, SLC-MSY, etc are all regional flights. Some of the regional jets flying these long segments with their high available cost per available seat mile with a high frequency is ludicrous. Instead of sending a CRJ-200 5 times per day (very high CASM) send a 757 twice or three times per day. Yeah the mainline pilots cost more but they can carry more, have more flexibility (alternates and capacity/etc), and provide passengers with more service and comfort than "sit down, shut up, and here is your coke."

Why doesn't this happen? Why aren't mainline pilots flying mainline airplanes on mainline routes? Why aren't regional pilots flying very efficient turboprops to feed the hub? Why doesn't United Airlines have a better feel for what oil is going to do even though their CEO is an ex oil exec who is sure to have some good connections still in the business? I guess because their competitor offers this level of frequency into crappy, small town XYZ and jet service. As far as Glen T, I guess his ineptitude is directly proportional to the size of his paycheck.

A10crewdawg
11-11-2008, 07:47 AM
I'm ready to put up. Lead the way.


I'd do it, but I don't know the legality involved in something that huge of scale.

I think the following should happen, even though I know it never will:

The remaining pilots at said airline need to just not show up one day. All of them. From there on, don't show up until management negotiates.........again, doubt this will happen either. The costs associated with cancellations and not fulfilling an obligation to say a bigger airline that both airlines operate for would be huge. There wouldn't be a lot of money to purchase new aircraft for other said airline, and possibly lose a contract with said larger airline.


But.......what do I know, I'm a lowly right seater with no qualifications or knowledge. AP on, FLC, window heat, pitot heat, let's eat!

CaptainCarl
11-11-2008, 01:24 PM
I'd do it, but I don't know the legality involved in something that huge of scale.

I think the following should happen, even though I know it never will:

The remaining pilots at said airline need to just not show up one day. All of them. From there on, don't show up until management negotiates.........again, doubt this will happen either. The costs associated with cancellations and not fulfilling an obligation to say a bigger airline that both airlines operate for would be huge. There wouldn't be a lot of money to purchase new aircraft for other said airline, and possibly lose a contract with said larger airline.


But.......what do I know, I'm a lowly right seater with no qualifications or knowledge. AP on, FLC, window heat, pitot heat, let's eat!

We would probably all end up in prison or fined. Or both.

I know for a fact that "wildcat" strikes (one-day strikes) are a weapon used often in Europe and they are quite effective. Air traffic controllers in certain countries do it. The union tells them that at XXXX o'clock, on XX day, everyone is to completely stop doing what they are doing and not to resume working until they get what they want (there are exceptions for aircraft in distress). The management knows its coming and so as to avoid any catastrophes they give the union what it wants before the strike.

Anyways, from what I've been told, wildcat strikes are illegal in the States, regardless of who is in Office. I think they would be great...

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a kid who has no life experience. Gear up, george on, george off, gear down, repeat as necessary.

Copperhed51
11-11-2008, 02:20 PM
We would probably all end up in prison or fined. Or both.

I know for a fact that "wildcat" strikes (one-day strikes) are a weapon used often in Europe and they are quite effective. Air traffic controllers in certain countries do it. The union tells them that at XXXX o'clock, on XX day, everyone is to completely stop doing what they are doing and not to resume working until they get what they want (there are exceptions for aircraft in distress). The management knows its coming and so as to avoid any catastrophes they give the union what it wants before the strike.

Anyways, from what I've been told, wildcat strikes are illegal in the States, regardless of who is in Office. I think they would be great...

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a kid who has no life experience. Gear up, george on, george off, gear down, repeat as necessary.

Yeah, it's illegal to strike until the government gives the ok. Penalties could include jail time and fines for all those involved. Not sure that is something that would be likely to stop a bunch of Waterskiers though. I highly doubt that 500 pilots would be prosecuted either. No matter the legal ramifications, Hulie would be hurtin'.

Foxcow
11-11-2008, 03:29 PM
Update:


I have been in recurrent for the past few days and got this info strait from the horses mouth; the president of the company, Rick Leach.

Here is what we were told:

-The company did research into getting -200s for gojet but they found that it is not feasible. The E-145s cost about 60% of what a -200 would cost to operate.
-The mechanics were in the desert doing pre-buys on a number of aircraft that would be suitable but again, the costs would outweigh benefit.
-gojet is getting a few more -700s
-Trans States Holdings has no desire to phase out TSA as it is a valuable asset [whipsaw].
-Management is working on a new United program for TSA to get some more airplanes back on property.
-If all goes according to plan, the US Airways flying will be back up to 6-8 airplanes by next spring/summer
-The reason that management is letting the leases lapse on the -145s is because they are costing ~$140,000 per month and they know that they can re-negotiate the leases for cheaper as in ~$80-90,000 per month because of the current state of 50 seater demand/desire.



Is it too much to hope that some of this stuff comes true along with a contract?

ExperimentalAB
11-11-2008, 03:49 PM
Wow...well that's some good news for a change -- of course anything sounded better than how this thread started!

Purpleanga
11-11-2008, 03:52 PM
-The company did research into getting -200s for gojet but they found that it is not feasible. The E-145s cost about 60% of what a -200 would cost to operate.



Did you ask that former baggage handler if that is even legal for them to do since TSA already flys 50 seaters? Also did you ask if TSH holdings has any intention of phasing out Gojet after we're done with AA?

Copperhed51
11-11-2008, 04:11 PM
That is some of the best news I've heard in a while. I really really hope some of that comes true because I really miss my job right now. Not sure why, but I enjoy the hell out of staying in a different hotel in a different city every night.

ExperimentalAB
11-11-2008, 04:15 PM
That is some of the best news I've heard in a while. I really really hope some of that comes true because I really miss my job right now. Not sure why, but I enjoy the hell out of staying in a different hotel in a different city every night.

I hear ya...I haven't been working much myself as I'm back in school (taking advantage of all the time-off w/o pay they're giving), and hadn't actually flown a multi-day trip in over two months until this week...I couldn't believe how much I enjoyed it - scary really.

expectholding
11-11-2008, 04:23 PM
i never believe one word out of leach's mouth. if they were looking at -200's for gj, that is enough to see the deceitfulness. not saying what he said wasn't spewing the truth, just saying i don't trust it as far as i can spit.

Mason32
11-11-2008, 06:03 PM
Hahahaha...what delusional fantasy world are you living in?!?!:confused:

Lets pretend you're even half-right and mainline carriers go back to the system of wholly-owned regional partners, THEY ARE STILL OUTSOURCING FLYING.

To you, a pilot at the mainline, it is outsourcing... to the shareholders it is keeping the profit in the company.

And you, as a pilot at that wholly-owned regional, are still nothing more than an entry-level B-scale employee.

and eventually, that entry-level B-scale will be the entry level position at the mainline carrier.

Why would any mainline carrier want to take on the additional risk and cost of operating their own regional unit when they can contract out that flying for cheaper.

That's just it, it isn't cheaper...

Even if they go one step further and bring that regional flying completely in-house and operate the regional aircraft on the same certificate and seniority lists, all you've done is increase your total labor costs (longer longevity), your fleet costs now that you've added a new type to your operation AND your own management overhead now that your operation is that much larger....

and you have eliminated one ENTIRE part 121 airline adminsitration, from CEO down to rampers in the process. You can afford to accept the higher longevity and/or labor costs and still come out ahead. Come on, your not seriously trying to argue that running two administrations, and supporting staffs, for two seperate airlines is cheaper than running one slightly larger adminstration for the same total number of aircraft.

When a mainline carrier contracts out with 2 or 3 or 4 different regional carriers they don't care that there are 2 or 3 or 4 duplicated managements or operations people or maintenance or whatever. All they are looking at is a simple cost-comparison. They look at what it would cost them to do the flying themselves (cost A) and what it would cost to pay a small-lift operator to do the flying (cost B). If cost A > cost B then that flying goes to the small-lift operator. It really is as simple as that. They don't call them bean-counters for nothing.

Do you really think the operational cost of flying a 50 seat aircraft is any different at one regional than at another? With the exception of pay scales the jet burns the same pounds per hour regardless of who's name is one the side, or in small letters by the door. So, whatever mainline pays a subcontractor has to cover ALL the operational costs, plus leave a profit for the subcontractor... with an in house owned regional you have the exact same scenario, but the profit stays in house going back into the mainlines bottom line, not into some other corporation.

Eventually the shareholders will demand that the BOD of their mainline companies stop sending money outside the company. After that happens, the principle of consolidating all of the management into one is a huge cost savings...

flynavyj
11-11-2008, 06:40 PM
[QUOTE=Mason32;496704]
and you have eliminated one ENTIRE part 121 airline adminsitration, from CEO down to rampers in the process. You can afford to accept the higher longevity and/or labor costs and still come out ahead. Come on, your not seriously trying to argue that running two administrations, and supporting staffs, for two seperate airlines is cheaper than running one slightly larger adminstration for the same total number of aircraft.

You don't really eliminate the management, you finally actually control the management. I believe what you're saying is that the total costs of operating say United's Management and the Management at Trans Stateswould outweigh simply operating the management at United alone, just expanded to cover the additional flying that would now be done by United Mainline. I'd wonder just how true that actually could be. You have to remember that United isn't paying for the management at Trans States. Also, pay scales go much deeper than pilot/flight attendant contracts, while we're a portion of the payscales, you have to take into account rampers, schedulers, dispatchers, fuelers, caterers, mechanics, executives, training departments, etc. All of which at the contract regional will be less than a comparable cost on the mainline side. So, in order to get the cost savings from labor alone, you'll be negotiating compensation decreases across the full company spectrum. Imagine trying to convince not one or two groups, but many different independent yet related facets to take pay cuts and compensation cuts in order to bring more flying in to house...



Do you really think the operational cost of flying a 50 seat aircraft is any different at one regional than at another? With the exception of pay scales the jet burns the same pounds per hour regardless of who's name is one the side, or in small letters by the door. So, whatever mainline pays a subcontractor has to cover ALL the operational costs, plus leave a profit for the subcontractor... with an in house owned regional you have the exact same scenario, but the profit stays in house going back into the mainlines bottom line, not into some other corporation.


I have a difficult time believing that any mainline management group is "losing" money on regional operations. Some of those profits will still find their way back into the mainline pockets.

250 or point 65
11-11-2008, 07:30 PM
We would probably all end up in prison or fined. Or both.

I know for a fact that "wildcat" strikes (one-day strikes) are a weapon used often in Europe and they are quite effective. Air traffic controllers in certain countries do it. The union tells them that at XXXX o'clock, on XX day, everyone is to completely stop doing what they are doing and not to resume working until they get what they want (there are exceptions for aircraft in distress). The management knows its coming and so as to avoid any catastrophes they give the union what it wants before the strike.

Anyways, from what I've been told, wildcat strikes are illegal in the States, regardless of who is in Office. I think they would be great...

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a kid who has no life experience. Gear up, george on, george off, gear down, repeat as necessary.

I love ya carlm but this the exact reason why an aviations science degree is not worthless. guys who have degrees have an idea about the RLA. don't ya think we'd be on strike if we could?

CaptainCarl
11-12-2008, 05:22 AM
I love ya carlm but this the exact reason why an aviations science degree is not worthless. guys who have degrees have an idea about the RLA. don't ya think we'd be on strike if we could?

Yes sir, I think... rather, I know we would be on strike if we were allowed. As for the RLA, you're right, I don't have a degree of any kind and I am slightly behind the curve in that aspect. However, I learn quickly and do a lot of reading, so I will catch up.

At this point, though, I am just going to stand by and watch things unfold. I am unsure as to how I can help. I have offered my time to the Union, no response from them. The only thing I can say for sure is: I will never apply for a job at GoJet. The only exception to that would be is if Uncle Hulas, the Leech and Jaba-da-Hut decide to merge the two companies.

dorc
11-12-2008, 06:23 PM
please stay focus?

Mason32
11-12-2008, 07:06 PM
You don't really eliminate the management, you finally actually control the management. I believe what you're saying is that the total costs of operating say United's Management and the Management at Trans Stateswould outweigh simply operating the management at United alone, just expanded to cover the additional flying that would now be done by United Mainline. I'd wonder just how true that actually could be. You have to remember that United isn't paying for the management at Trans States.





Of course they are paying for it, and they are also paying enough for Trans States to make a profit for their shareholders...



Also, pay scales go much deeper than pilot/flight attendant contracts, while we're a portion of the payscales, you have to take into account rampers, schedulers, dispatchers, fuelers, caterers, mechanics, executives, training departments, etc. All of which at the contract regional will be less than a comparable cost on the mainline side.





There absolutely is truth to that... but what you're missing is that nowhere near as many would be needed. Additionally, instead of mainline and regional rampers, gate agents, FA's, schedulers, and dispatchers all worrying about job losses, they would welcome the extra work to ensure job stability. Most mainlines, and regionals, have been shrinking capacity, which just means less jobs everywhere, not just in the flightdeck.



So, in order to get the cost savings from labor alone, you'll be negotiating compensation decreases across the full company spectrum. Imagine trying to convince not one or two groups, but many different independent yet related facets to take pay cuts and compensation cuts in order to bring more flying in to house...



You wouldn't have to take concessions anywhere. The entire administration of the absorbed regional would become redundant at that point. The theoretical elimination of 2/3's of the management staff, training staff, dispatch staff, scheduling staff, Chief Pilots, In-Flight, MX staff, duplicated reservations and ticketing..... not too mention duplicated ground service equipment... The cost saving alone from that would obviate any need for concessions from any workgroup. Would Mngt try for them... of course, but the need would not exist.





I have a difficult time believing that any mainline management group is "losing" money on regional operations. Some of those profits will still find their way back into the mainline pockets.



Of course they aren't, my point was that they are able to retain a higher profit by owning the regional themselves. That being the most profitable formula, it is just a matter of time, before they get the idea to consolidate their operations under one roof and realize the additional cost savings from elimination of duplicated services. The number one priority is convicing their shareholders that THEY are doing the best at maximizing their returns.... that way they get to keep their jobs, and their high paychecks. When the shareholders lean on the BOD things happen quickly.



It's common sense, you have two of the same products for sale.... seats on a part 121 airline... but you are paying for two completely seperate corporations from the CEO's to the Lav cleaners...

They already do this with ticketing/code sharing... trying to make the seperate companies appear transparent as if they were one for the customer... the eventual migration will be to realize the additional profit to be had by making the transparency a reality through consolidation of assets.



I'm not saying it's a good thing, or a bad thing, I'm just saying it is the direction that things will go.

flynavyj
11-12-2008, 08:27 PM
Can't say that i agree with you mason.

For the record though, TSA/Gojet has no shareholders, or if they do, they only have one...Uncle Hulas is the ONLY share holder who has to be pleased with the performance of the company. We're one of the good ole' airlines, that is privately owned.

Here's the problem I see...Yes, in ORD the rampers are mainline united already, so nothing really changes there, in IAD the entire UAX operation is done by Air Whiskey, which was just taken over from a different sub contractor (the name i dodn't remember). The difference here though, is that United would then be purchasing the equipment, the employees, etc as they go about their take over. Ontop of this, you'd have to replace countless numbers of outstations from being say skywest, or comair employees to being mainline employees also. That would have to cover gate agents, ticket counter reps, and rampers (most of which do all of the above). And this would be nationwide. These individuals would be going from lower paying jobs to higher paying jobs (probably good for the employee) but not so good for management.

Another note though, from memory i believe that BNA uses United employees. After sitting on the ramp waiting to get marshaled in, i talked with some of the rampers about the situation. They explained that United had scaled back the operation, so there's only enough crew for one airplane at a time. They went from roughly 30-40 employees to 12....Now, it makes more economical sense to have an aircraft sitting on the ramp, burning up Jet A (which united just hedged at the highest prices ever) for an extra 30 minutes, than it is to pay a several more rampers to be at work....If that's the stance of United Mainline, i have a hard time they're going to be willing to obsorb more infrastructure, as opposed to eliminate it.

Mason32
11-13-2008, 07:21 AM
I love ya carlm but this the exact reason why an aviations science degree is not worthless. guys who have degrees have an idea about the RLA. don't ya think we'd be on strike if we could?


You are not really defending these schools that rack up 150k in debt as being worth it since you learn about the RLA? Heck, you can read it online anytime you want. If you are going to be an airline pilot, the RLA should be on your short reading list either before taking the job or within the first year after studying your contract.

You are mistaken sir. There is no greater waste of college education money than attaining a degree in Aviation Science. It is NOT required by ANY airline, it will not help your career advancement in any way, and it will do nothing for you in the event you are furloughed.

Mason32
11-13-2008, 07:38 AM
Can't say that i agree with you mason.

For the record though, TSA/Gojet has no shareholders, or if they do, they only have one...Uncle Hulas is the ONLY share holder who has to be pleased with the performance of the company. We're one of the good ole' airlines, that is privately owned.

Here's the problem I see...Yes, in ORD the rampers are mainline united already, so nothing really changes there, in IAD the entire UAX operation is done by Air Whiskey, which was just taken over from a different sub contractor (the name i dodn't remember). The difference here though, is that United would then be purchasing the equipment, the employees, etc as they go about their take over.

You are missing the point that they are ALREADY paying for this through their capacity purchase agreement, or whatever they call it now. That CPA has to cover everything that a wholly owned company has to pay for, plus it has to leave some moeny left over for Hullas....

Ontop of this, you'd have to replace countless numbers of outstations from being say skywest, or comair employees to being mainline employees also.

Again, the mainline company is already paying for them... instead of paying them directly, they pay the subcontractor who pays them... cutting out the middle man saves money.

That would have to cover gate agents, ticket counter reps, and rampers (most of which do all of the above). And this would be nationwide. These individuals would be going from lower paying jobs to higher paying jobs (probably good for the employee) but not so good for management.

No, completely false. First, lets address the fact that once merged less overall employees would be needed.... you wouldn't need a full skywest staff sitting at the next gate from a full comair staff, sitting at the next gate from a full pinnacle staff... there would be staff reductions, or more likely, a hiring freeze to allow attrition to draw down the staffing level. Very much like what has been happening at United for some time now. They have drawn down their station staffing to the lowest levels I've ever seen.

Second, it is very simple to do what many mainlines did years ago and add B scales, or add extra pay steps (at the bottom end of the scales) so that commuter jet equipment becomes the entry level position, on a new lower first step pay and benefit scale. So, all the rampers, gate agents, ticket agents.... etc would all start on the new lower pay scale, which would be no different than what they get now. Keeping people on the small equipment and pay scales is just a mtter of writing the correct contractual agreements to match company structuring. For us, it gives mainline guys some furlough protection, it gives regional guys a light at the end of the tunnel that isn't a train comming at them, and it saves the company money... it's a win, win, win, that would be an easy sell to anybody that can see past their personal ego's.

No big pay increases or any other earth shattering happenings.... just a change in uniform, books, manuals, checklists, and for some where the paycheck comes from.... The advantage; scope is eliminated as a problem, more efficient and streamlined corporate structure resulting in higher profit retention; for employees, a more stable and predictable career path; for shareholders, a higher return on investment.

Copperhed51
11-13-2008, 11:01 AM
I just thought I'd run this idea by some people to see if anybody would be interested. Our mediator during negotiations is Jack Kane of the NMB. It's pretty obvious that this guy is mostly worthless and isn't helping us to get Jack sh!t (pun intended) done. If we began calling him frequently and expressing our dissatisfaction with the negotiating process and him, then maybe he would start to get the idea of what is really going on. I would imagine that this one guy has quite a bit of power when it comes to releasing us to self-help. Of course he is up against people in the administration that are probably against self-help completely, but if Mr. Kane gets daily calls about how upset we are, it should make him want to get things done.

This guy is probably very detached from the pilot group. All he hears is the bickering between the union reps and management. I imagine he's forgotten about all the pilots that are being screwed by the company.

Anyway, here's Jack Kane's contact info if you're interested:

Jack Kane, Mediator
Phone: 202-692-5067
Fax: 202-692-5084

Additionally, Jack Kane's boss is Larry Gibbons. It might help to express our dissatisfaction with him as well.

Larry Gibbons, Director, Office of Mediation Services
Phone: 202-692-5060
Fax: 202-692-5084

expectholding
11-13-2008, 11:42 AM
got any email addresses too? we should flood their email with disatisfaction. 2.5 yrs is a long time to negotiate. then again, it may be pointless, considering new leadership is coming in.

Copperhed51
11-13-2008, 11:54 AM
Phone and fax were all that was available from the NMB website so I plan on utilizing both. If I find an email address, I'll post it here.

You can fax for free from your computer at faxzero.com. It's pretty much just as easy as emailing.

TBucket
11-13-2008, 12:16 PM
Phone and fax were all that was available from the NMB website so I plan on utilizing both. If I find an email address, I'll post it here.

You can fax for free from your computer at faxzero.com. It's pretty much just as easy as emailing.


Not a bad idea. Just remember to be civil. The message we want to send is "We're the ones being taken advantage of" Not "We're a bunch of a**holes giving you a hard time"

Copperhed51
11-13-2008, 12:22 PM
Not a bad idea. Just remember to be civil. The message we want to send is "We're the ones being taken advantage of" Not "We're a bunch of a**holes giving you a hard time"

Yeah, the fax I just sent was mostly an inquiry into what is happening since we get a lot of info from the union and not much info from anywhere else. I just asked a bunch of questions and also mentioned that I think the process is taking too long and that it doesn't seem to be getting anywhere. I tried to keep it as polite as possible. I asked him to email me a response, so if he does, that should provide me with an email address to post on here.

expectholding
11-13-2008, 03:13 PM
i have uncle hulie's florida home address if anyone feels so inclined as to write him about it. i'd probably get violated for putting it on here, so pm me if ya care.

Purpleanga
11-13-2008, 03:16 PM
i have uncle hulie's florida home address if anyone feels so inclined as to write him about it. i'd probably get violated for putting it on here, so pm me if ya care.

How did you get that? He's almost non existent but there are confirmation form line pilots that they've seen him.....

wmupilot69
11-13-2008, 03:26 PM
I think I saw him one time in the elevator in the training center. He was wearing a suit, going down the elevator.

On a completely unrelated tangent, had the best MX write up today in ORD. Passenger stuck in bathroom. 20 minute delay

Copperhed51
11-13-2008, 04:07 PM
I think I saw him one time in the elevator in the training center. He was wearing a suit, going down the elevator.

On a completely unrelated tangent, had the best MX write up today in ORD. Passenger stuck in bathroom. 20 minute delay

Thank god the passenger was ok. I imagine they survived by eating the coffee grounds scattered all over the place.

BYUFlyr
11-13-2008, 05:19 PM
How did you get that? He's almost non existent but there are confirmation form line pilots that they've seen him.....

Saw him on a SWA flight to STL

Foxcow
11-13-2008, 06:15 PM
I've seen him a few times. Its about what I expected.

Salukipilot4590
11-13-2008, 10:38 PM
On a completely unrelated tangent, had the best MX write up today in ORD. Passenger stuck in bathroom. 20 minute delay

:D That totally just made my night man! I don't think I could last more than the 2 maybe 3 minutes I had to take in there.

expectholding
11-14-2008, 10:56 AM
informational picketing in STL on 11/19...be there if your not working!!

CaptainCarl
11-14-2008, 08:18 PM
informational picketing in STL on 11/19...be there if your not working!!

Man! It sucks! The two days I am off they want to have the Strike Office Open House. The one day they are going to do informational picketing, I have a day trip followed by 5 days of reserve. :mad:

How awesome would it be to be on airport reserve AND doing informational picketing? :D

ExperimentalAB
11-14-2008, 11:15 PM
How awesome would it be to be on airport reserve AND doing informational picketing? :D

Now that is fantastic!! LoL