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View Full Version : Latest Trans States VARS


Foxcow
02-14-2009, 05:22 PM
Have you guys read it? The MEC and negotiating committee have my full support.

I thought that the bridge proposal was complete crap.


DublinFlyer
02-14-2009, 05:25 PM
VARS? I'm not familiar - can someone explain?

ExperimentalAB
02-14-2009, 05:32 PM
What the Negotiating committee offered for a bridge was fair and reasonable enough, IMHO...I wouldn't go for anything short of that! Hulas is playing y'all for fools :mad:


undflyboy06
02-14-2009, 05:47 PM
Here's the meat and potatoes of the offer that they discussed:

They characterized two possible catastrophic outcomes should negotiations continue to progress. First, in a worsening economic climate, there is no way they can give us what we want. Second, by reaching an impasse we would eventually be released to self help. They also pointed out the inherent liability an open contract has on them as a Company. Thus, the Company proposed an 18-month hiatus in negotiations and a two-year extension to our contract, which they called a “Bridge Agreement.” The Company proposed to resume FLiCA and to increase pay and per diem rates, but in amounts which would still be below industry average. The Company also proposed to put all sections which have been tentatively agreed to so far on hold (none of them would be implemented). The Company’s offer made no improvements to any other section of the agreement, including retirement, insurance, job protection, hours of service, scheduling, reserve, vacation, sick leave, etc.

I say BS to that. The MEC continued by saying that even if the pilot group acccepted the Bridge Program that second year FO's TSA would still be $6.00 below the industry average

Foxcow
02-14-2009, 05:52 PM
They also want a 2 year extension because they claim any improvements are not feasible. This will give them plenty of time to continue to shrink TSA down and expand g0jets.

undflyboy06
02-14-2009, 05:55 PM
I totally agree with that. The company is also cry like little babies on how the market is not economically reasonable, however with the loss of aircraft, less fuel to buy, less leases to pay they are still probably making money.

ExperimentalAB
02-14-2009, 06:00 PM
Typical management bull...SkyWest's latest pay raise conveniently left out the largest group of Pilots in both seats.

Seattlecfi
02-14-2009, 06:34 PM
Typical management bull...SkyWest's latest pay raise conveniently left out the largest group of Pilots in both seats.

Sort of like when the Brasilia pilots got a 0% raise a couple of years ago.

Purpleanga
02-14-2009, 07:06 PM
That vars was not very promising. I'm all for what the MEC said but the fact that there is such a deep division in negotiations is also very troubling considering what management has done in the past and what this company is capable of doing... It leads me to believe that management has absolutely no problem with transferring all of TSA flying to GJ if these negotiations continue to go the way they have and the MEC is willing to go all the way if it means the closing of TSA. I was also kind of surprised that the mergin of the gj and tsa pilot list was rejected as an idea. I guess they'll do that when TSA no longer exists and we're all be transfered to GJ.

flyinaway411
02-14-2009, 07:08 PM
Why dont we post the whole VARS message so we can see that in fact we (TSA pilots) are trying to raise the bar. By the way, I would have voted against what the MEC offered too. I'm sick of this place. Here it is. And notice the comments regarding GJ. (but its ok to take a job there :rolleyes:)

Despite three years of negotiations, prior to last week, the company had yet to present an economic package (hourly rates, guarantees, per diem,
insurance rates, 401K Company match). Therefore, the mediator instructed the company to come to this session with a complete economic proposal.
Rather than complying with the mediator’s instruction, the Company came to the table citing financial concerns over the progress of negotiations.
They characterized two possible catastrophic outcomes should negotiations continue to progress. First, in a worsening economic climate, there is no
way they can give us what we want. Second, by reaching an impasse we would eventually be released to self help. They also pointed out the inherent
liability an open contract has on them as a Company. Thus, the Company proposed an 18-month hiatus in negotiations and a two-year extension to
our contract, which they called a “Bridge Agreement.” The Company proposed to resume FLiCA and to increase pay and per diem rates, but in amounts
which would still be below industry average. The Company also proposed to put all sections which have been tentatively agreed to so far on hold (none
of them would be implemented). The Company’s offer made no improvements to any other section of the agreement, including retirement, insurance,
job protection, hours of service, scheduling, reserve, vacation, sick leave, etc.

The Association negotiating committee consulted with the MEC, which established some new objectives to engage in such a dialog. Job Security
would be at the forefront of those negotiations with some minor contractual improvements, and an end game to resumed negotiations. ALPA’s
proposal agreed to a two-year extension, and provided industry average pay rates, FLiCA, electronic bidding of monthly schedules (not PBS), a
commuter policy, an increase to company matching 401k contributions to 3%, a 100% line guarantee in months with a 98% completion factor (and
retention of the current 95% guarantee). Most importantly, ALPA proposed a single carrier letter which would have resulted in the combining of the
GoJet and TSA seniority lists, the only true way to provide protection against the alter ego company established four years ago. We saw the Bridge
Agreement concept as an opportunity to get close to industry average pay and obtain the job protections all of you desire (that comes from crew room
discussions and polling results). Finally, ALPA requested that TSA provide financial data to ALPA’s Economic and Financial Analysis Department to
confirm the company’s claim of economic need for the extension.

The Company provided a response to ALPA’s proposal, which they stated was their last and final proposal (meaning they would not entertain any further
negotiations on the Bridge Agreement). The only changes in this proposal to their previous one was to increase the pay rates slightly, add a 1.5% hourly
pay bump and a five cent per diem bump at the one year anniversary date, and a commuter clause. The pay increases for Captains in years 1 to 15
ranged between 3.8% to 5.8%. The smallest pay increase (3.8%) was applied to the largest captain longevity group (5th year captains). The Captain pay
scales were extended out from 15 to 19 years. On the First Officer side, the pay hikes for years 1 to 5 ranged from 5.4% to 5.9% and were extended out
to 7 years. There are more first officers in the second year of longevity than all other longevity years combined. The current second year first officer
rates are significantly below industry average. Despite the Company’s proposed 5.5% increase for second year FOs, they would still be $6.00 below
industry average rates.

The Company rejected all other proposals in ALPA’s Bridge proposal. Despite claiming an economic need for an extension, they refused to provide any
financial data to prove economic need nor did they accept any zero cost items. They also refused to consider our single carrier proposal and any other
form of job protection. They also asked for their “Bridge proposal” to be taken to the MEC for consideration of a full pilot vote.

Following the Company’s final Bridge offer, the mediator again insisted that the Company provide a complete economic proposal and a summary of
where they stand on all open sections. This was done so that in the event the Bridge proposal failed, the parties would have a place to resume normal
negotiations. Late Thursday night, the Company provided a complete economic proposal. This economic proposal included an across-the-board 5%
wage increase.

Yesterday was the first time the entire MEC and Negotiating Committee had common availability to meet and discuss the merits of the company’s Bridge
Agreement proposal. As many of you are aware, even before the MEC had a chance to meet with the negotiating committee, management has been
spreading misinformation about what actions have been taken by the MEC. We believe this was a political propaganda attempt to build mistrust in the
union, divide pilot unity and promote fear by stating how bad economic times are for the pilots and company. None-the-less the MEC took their proposal
into due consideration.

Late last night the MEC was extensively briefed by the Negotiating Committee. It was clear that neither the Negotiating Committee nor MEC would
endorse such a proposal. As a result, the MEC unanimously voted not to put this proposal out to a ratification vote. This was a carefully considered
decision and was reached primarily because the Company’s offer did not come close to meeting the negotiating goals established by the MEC which
were in turn derived from scientific pilot polling. The Company flatly rejected the job security concerns articulated by the Negotiating Committee.
Giving Trans States management an extension of time would simply give them time to continue to grow Gojet at the expense of Trans States pilots.
Increased revenue streams on our sister carrier would only serve to make any self help measure by TSA pilots ineffective.

At the table last week, the company claimed their Bridge Agreement proposal constituted a wage increase in excess of 6%. In fact, ALPA’s economic and
financial analysis department concluded that the overall increase was only 5.6%. In contrast, the Company’s comprehensive economic proposal contained
a wage increase of 5% for each longevity year. The Bridge proposal had wage increases in most of the longevity years which were below 5%. Thus, many
pilots would have received a smaller wage increase under the short term bridge agreement than if we resumed negotiations with the company’s
comprehensive proposal. It seems fruitless to grant a 2-year extension for a mere .6% overall increase with no other benefits or job protection. Not
surprisingly, while the company did extend the longevity wage rate tables, the smallest increases in rates applied to the largest group of pilots and the
largest increases applied to the smallest group of pilots. This was consistent for both captain and first officers.

Finally, I would like to point out that Trans States has not been acting like a company in financial crisis. While total operative revenue may decrease because
of the loss of aircraft, their operating costs have also diminished. They will no longer have those aircraft leases, maintenance, fuel (several were pro-rate
agreements) and crew costs associated with those aircraft. Similarly, in 2007 TSA showed a reduction in operating revenues after parking the J41 fleet BUT
their total operating expenses decreased by a greater amount. This resulted in TSA operating income increasing by $3 million and their profitability increasing
by $6 million. This was a 58% increase in profitability before taxes year over year.

Oddly enough, the only group of employees that seems to be shouldering the burden of the company’s alleged financial concerns are the pilots. The new
flight attendant agreement had signing bonuses ranging from $200 to $2500. The company even gave $1000 hiring bonuses to IAD new hire flight attendants.
TSA Management also received a $1 million payment for the cancellation of the American contract. Maybe if Trans States spent less money paying for
FAA enforcement actions on deficient maintenance, they wouldn’t feel compelled to make it up from the pilot group.

Their financial concerns might be better characterized as a financial impediment. Without the ability to buy more jets for GoJet, they may not be able to
leverage us into submission. Self help may very well scare them more than it scares us. Without a doubt, TSA Management will begin a fear campaign by
making claims that should we be released to self help, TSA will cease to exist. I can’t guarantee that won’t happen, but what future do we have if we ratify
an agreement without any job protections? After all, scope language costs them nothing.

Purpleanga
02-14-2009, 07:10 PM
Good post. Notice how Gojet fits into the whole TSA picture.

CaptainCarl
02-14-2009, 09:21 PM
Good post. Notice how Gojet fits into the whole TSA picture.

:rolleyes: Oh boy, here we go again. This is going to turn into a GoJet inferno as soon as Purpleanga reads this sentence. :D

Seriously though, let's try to stay on topic. The VARS message, not very promising because the company is unwilling to cooperate and the MEC is willing to do what we all know has to happen. I'm ready. If we (the pilots) are going down in flames, Hulas, Rick, Jaba (attorney guy), and the rest of them are coming with us.

Hopefully that's not how it happens. I sincerely hope that management removes their heads from their respective anuses and comes to the table to negotiate like professionals.

And if not... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7MNBHu2wzM

flynavyj
02-15-2009, 03:51 AM
I view the message in a couple of ways, the company offering the bridge contract makes me think that they're either trying to procure more flying and need a contract, or they're doing it for a cost analysis as to what bench to use for gaining more flying. As anyone here knows, this company wouldn't offer anything that didn't benefit them. I have good faith that the pilot group here knows what needs to be done! And will give nothing back as a result. If the MEC is willing to watch this place burn, he has my full support. Let's take whats' ours, and give nothing back.

PS-

If they wont' merge the list, a $20.00 / hr pay raise across the board will mean nothing if we don't have a job tomorrow....we need job security.

Furloughee
02-15-2009, 06:24 AM
I must admit my ignorance, but is this standard practice when it's time to negotiate a new contract? I am not a TSA pilot but the regional where I was flying before I got furloughed is getting ready to start contract negotiations soon. It's good to see that your MEC is not backing down. Being new to the airlines business it seems like the companies use a lot of scare tactics when it comes to for a new contract. IMO it seems that is very childish.

btwissel
02-15-2009, 06:46 AM
I must admit my ignorance, but is this standard practice when it's time to negotiate a new contract? I am not a TSA pilot but the regional where I was flying before I got furloughed is getting ready to start contract negotiations soon. It's good to see that your MEC is not backing down. Being new to the airlines business it seems like the companies use a lot of scare tactics when it comes to for a new contract. IMO it seems that is very childish.

childish, but standard industry practice. the more doom & gloom they spout, the more the new guys that are suckers will believe it, and vote to protect their jobs.

also, unless there's back pay, no company will sign a contract until they're forced to.

Positive_Rate
02-15-2009, 07:33 AM
If we (the pilots) are going down in flames, Hulas, Rick, Jaba (attorney guy), and the rest of them are coming with us.



They're like the roaches in the RIC crew-room. They'll never die!




If they wont' merge the list, a $20.00 / hr pay raise across the board will mean nothing if we don't have a job tomorrow....we need job security.

Yep, right on. Raises and per-diem increases don't mean **** if theres no job security. The bridge that the company offered is complete crap and I'm very happy with our MECs decision. This is definitely the time to make our stand as a pilot group. The morale around here is pretty damn low, some job security would do wonders.

Copperhed51
02-15-2009, 11:31 AM
The company's offer was crap. The MEC was right to reject it. It is really starting to look like things are heating up and some big things will start happening soon. My prediction all along has been that Trans States Airlines will cease to exist and I still think that's a strong possibility. No matter what happens, the pilot group at TSA will once again prove that they are strong and won't settle for a subpar contract.

Foxcow
02-15-2009, 12:27 PM
Do any TSA pilots want to volunteer maybe 1 day per 2 months in the strike center? At first, we are going to have the center open to take questions 2 days per week and as things heat up, more days.

I am in charge of making the schedule and I can't find any volunteers to make this happen. If you are interested, please send me a PM.

eaglefly
02-15-2009, 01:08 PM
It's good to see most TSA pilots aren't being suckered in by managements scam. I hope you stand firm and require this management to finally show respect and value for your services.

At least one noteworthy pilot group failed to do that recently and it's about time we had some pilots produce a positive wind shift.

Keep us informed.

BURflyer
02-15-2009, 01:19 PM
A strike center will do you no good if it takes you over the cliff.... good luck. Other airlines will really appreciate your hard stand for a day and move right in the next to take over you ERJ flying... Just remember it's all about compromises and unfortunately management has all the leverage despite what that vars says. This is not flamebait, seriously trying to make a point. Let's not forget the past. It's very obvious that Hulas wants TSA to become Gojet.

Copperhed51
02-15-2009, 01:34 PM
A strike center will do you no good if it takes you over the cliff.... good luck. Other airlines will really appreciate your hard stand for a day and move right in the next to take over you ERJ flying... Just remember it's all about compromises and unfortunately management has all the leverage despite what that vars says. This is not flamebait, seriously trying to make a point. Let's not forget the past. It's very obvious that Hulas wants TSA to become Gojet.

I think the majority of the pilot group is willing to go over the cliff if it gets to that point. I agree that there has to be compromise but that doesn't mean that you do whatever management wants you to. It means they get some of the things they want and the pilots get some of the things the want. Neither side gets everything. There is, however, a limit to what the pilots will accept and management's offers do not come anywhere close to our limits.

BURflyer
02-15-2009, 03:09 PM
I think the majority of the pilot group is willing to go over the cliff if it gets to that point. I agree that there has to be compromise but that doesn't mean that you do whatever management wants you to. It means they get some of the things they want and the pilots get some of the things the want. Neither side gets everything. There is, however, a limit to what the pilots will accept and management's offers do not come anywhere close to our limits.

Well I don't think so. It's not just a pilot group. It's people with lives and families they're not going to go down to prove a point to management. I have no doubt that this is not going to happen and eventually there's going to be an agreement. But with what's happening with negotiations and what Hulas is capable of doing, anything seems possible.

flyinaway411
02-15-2009, 03:40 PM
and thank you BURFlyer, for making the shift to GJ that much easier for management!

250 or point 65
02-15-2009, 07:07 PM
BURFLYER

And why wouldn't you want us to go over the cliff? That means more flying for you and your boys at the GJ!

Also, although the general consensus is that we don't deny GoJetters jumpseats, do not try to get on my plane when you jump to the other side (making it harder for us to get a good contract) just to take the recall to TSA and reap the benefits when and if everything turns around! It sickens me that you feign to support our cause. Just like I told a GJ captain who asked when I was getting furloughed...Don't pretend like you care!

CaptainCarl
02-15-2009, 08:27 PM
That's the dumbest thing ever. You have obviously never been furloughed or forced to seek unemployment help. There's a former Comair pilot right now flipping burgers at McDonalds that would really agree with you.... if he could afford an internet connection.

BURflyer: If no one stands up to the school bully, he keeps beating the crap out of kids and taking their lunch money. But if just one kid defies that bully, he may still get the crap kicked out of him or all the other kids might stand right beside that kid and tell the bully to take a very long walk off a very short pier. Mmm, kay? ;)

250 or point 65
02-15-2009, 08:51 PM
You have obviously never been furloughed or forced to seek unemployment help.

Quit it with this whole "You don't understand how hard it is to be me cause I got furloughed with my lifetime of experience" crapp!

As if you're the only one.

CaptainCarl is, I am, MANY of us are. Don't try to pretend that we don't know what its like. We've been to the unemployment offices, we've sat with ex-cons trying to get additional training from the government, we've filled out countless job applications. I refuse to advance my career on the backs of other pilots...REFUSE!

Foxcow
02-15-2009, 08:53 PM
You have obviously never been furloughed or forced to seek unemployment help. There's a former Comair pilot right now flipping burgers at McDonalds that would really agree with you.... if he could afford an internet connection.


You can't use that "I have to feed my family" crap either. I can think of a dozen jobs one can get that would pay them the same crappy $20,000 per year, work less hours, and they would be home every night. If g0jets was the only option, I would turn my ATP in and be done with it.

skippy
02-16-2009, 04:45 AM
Quit it with this whole "You don't understand how hard it is to be me cause I got furloughed with my lifetime of experience" crapp!

As if you're the only one.

CaptainCarl is, I am, MANY of us are. Don't try to pretend that we don't know what its like. We've been to the unemployment offices, we've sat with ex-cons trying to get additional training from the government, we've filled out countless job applications. I refuse to advance my career on the backs of other pilots...REFUSE!


a guy tried to sell me some drugs there-- i rationalized with the guy-- im unemployed, do you really think i have any money? Iditot.

using the whole family as an excuse is pretty sad for a job-- if they were than important - maybe you shouldnt be gone 15-20 nights a month-- f'n hippocrites.

skippy-- hold the line or burn the place down and get what you want, dont settle for the "we're to poor routine", Thats a classic lawyer routine-- all he does is delay---its just more money for down payments on newer 700's at geauxjet---- now thats really hippocritical.

CaptainCarl
02-16-2009, 07:14 AM
If our MEC or Negotiating Committee is reading this, you guys have my full support.

Hold the line or burn it down.

Salukipilot4590
02-16-2009, 10:37 AM
I really wish I could have stayed in STL so I could help out with the strike thing.

FC...if you need anything from me out here just PM or Facebook it up!

You all have my complete support and you're doing good work!

TheOak
02-16-2009, 09:26 PM
word. MEC, you are doing great.

I love the window shade too! It definitely helps moral. Any chance we could go for stickers or ID tags (we could even print out ourselves) or something cheap having to deal with the "single carrier" clause?

Sounds like everyone I've talked to agrees with you in that it will be our only form of job security.
What good is annnything in the contract if we are only going to be furloughed/out of business/replaced in the foreseeable future anyhow.


Foam Fingers:
#1 Foam Grabber Hands - Hot Deals (http://www.printglobe.com/Products/ProdDetail~productid~8294~_plist~_784.asp)


Once again, you are greatly appreciated!
Count Me In.

flyinaway411
02-17-2009, 09:00 AM
its nice to see that we're all on the same page, huh? :)

DryMotorBoatin
02-17-2009, 12:37 PM
I just wanted to congradulate all the waterskiers out there. This is the longest TSA thread in recent history that hasn't been closed for variety of reasons...WAY TO GO GUYS!

Positive_Rate
02-17-2009, 01:37 PM
Shhhh...don't jinx it! :)

TBucket
02-17-2009, 02:34 PM
Hold the line or burn it down.

I like that one as a slogan... We need some stickers or something with that on it... Something to one-up the rat stickers...

A10crewdawg
02-17-2009, 03:20 PM
I prefer one that starts with, "We don't need no water..." Hold the line William Wallace style.

undflyboy06
02-17-2009, 03:49 PM
I prefer one that starts with, "We don't need no water..." Hold the line William Wallace style.

And go to the airport with blue and white war paint on.

250 or point 65
02-18-2009, 01:24 AM
I was talking with a captain a while ago about the sticker issue. I think that it'd just be a sticker of a match or match book. It kinda encompasses the "ready to strike" and "burn it down" aspects of our position.

Anyone want one?

Shrek
02-18-2009, 02:21 AM
Proud to have been a former waterskiier.........hold the line - we are ALL (current and former) watching ;)

s10an
02-18-2009, 05:54 AM
A little side question to the thread...
I recently flew with a captain sitting reserve, and he had picked up that trip in open time. I know the union cant enforce or go against open time pick up, but can they do something when you work more than your minimum days off?

250 or point 65
02-18-2009, 06:21 AM
look at it this way. he' probably trying to get his 500 or 1000 to get a job somewhere else. when things get moving again, he'll create a vacancy quicker if he gets more pic now. what if he already has something lined up? i wouldnt get too huffy puffy about that, and im getting furloughed next month

s10an
02-18-2009, 06:29 AM
look at it this way. he' probably trying to get his 500 or 1000 to get a job somewhere else. when things get moving again, he'll create a vacancy quicker if he gets more pic now. what if he already has something lined up? i wouldnt get too huffy puffy about that, and im getting furloughed next month

I wish that was the case.. I think this guy is gonna be a lifer.. He has 2000 pic in the EMB...(He told me that trip) + whatever he had on the turboprop.

skippy
02-18-2009, 08:17 AM
tell him that you hope his shiny new iphone 3 G was worth it b/c he singlehandedly is preventing a fo from upgrading and a furloughee from coming back.

thanks a-hole

some people just dont get it and those are the ones that are the first to complain about petty things too


skippy-- open time pick up when you have furloughees isnt cool and shouldnt be tolerated

s10an
02-18-2009, 08:22 AM
tell him that you hope his shiny new iphone 3 G was worth it b/c he singlehandedly is preventing a fo from upgrading and a furloughee from coming back.

thanks a-hole

some people just dont get it and those are the ones that are the first to complain about petty things too


skippy-- open time pick up when you have furloughees isnt cool and shouldnt be tolerated

He actually had an iphone...

I might be wrong but when you pick up time the 1.5 only counts towards your guarantee, so you might end up working extra days, but only get paid the 74(?) hours....

Pilotpip
02-18-2009, 09:29 AM
If you guys need any help, let me know.

Once a waterskier, always a waterskier.

ehe2
02-18-2009, 11:58 AM
Take it for what it is worth...

Here's a small bit of information I picked up from mx in stl. The mechanic wanted to me to spread the word that UAL is really PO'ed about the 'small or unwarented' write ups at out stations or on quick turns. (We all know 'who and what' they are talking about). It is causing huge delays and cx. UAL told us if it does not stop in the time frame they set forth, they will terminate our UAL contract for TSA (and only TSA).

So being the conspiracy therorist that I am... I have come up with 2.

1) This is a true situation, the company is scared and that is why they came up with the bridge extension...Hoping that if we would bite on the bs, the mx problems would diminish. (Right...How about fixing something once in a while)

2) This is a propaganda situation, the company knows that the mechanics tell the pilots all their secrets. They scare the MX guys with these lies, full well knowing that they will tell the pilots. Thus causing fear in the pilot group and pressure on the MEC to sign a substandard contact extension.

The only problem with this whole situation is...when the pilot group knows this information, it will encourage the pilots to 'BURN IT DOWN'.

Pilotpip
02-18-2009, 12:20 PM
If they maintained the aircraft to an appreciable standard this wouldn't be a problem in the first place.

Further, if this is in fact the case, I'm sure the feds would love to know that UAL isn't happy that TSA pilots are concerned about safety.

Positive_Rate
02-18-2009, 12:23 PM
# 2 isn't so far fetched. I'm pretty sure management has "planted" rumors in the past with the hope of it spreading to the pilot group to incite fear. It's totally within the realm of possibility...as is situation # 1.

DryMotorBoatin
02-18-2009, 12:23 PM
Sorry to sound completely out of the loop as I am...turns out I don't get alot of info from TSA while a substitute teacher but are the furloughs through March the last planned furloughs? i know in december they announced furloughs for jan feb and march...is that tentatively it for now or have there been more announced?

also...i hate to sound really stupid but what does VARS mean?

250 or point 65
02-18-2009, 02:27 PM
Once a waterskier, always a waterskier.

Unless they're a "Lindbergher"

Pilotpip
02-18-2009, 03:06 PM
Then it's null and void. We all know that. But hey, they'll get that fast PIC and more on right? They gotta feed their family...

Have fun at Mardi Gras.

TheOak
02-18-2009, 08:47 PM
I like the matches idea. CDL class A truck driving license, HERE I come.

CaptainCarl
02-18-2009, 09:26 PM
UAL is going to drop a contract over write-ups? Gimme a break. If UAL was upset they would send out a memo. It hasn't stopped them before when they were concerned about something. TSA management is spreading propaganda to incite fear into everyone. Fear not.

The bottom line is: If it's broke, it's broke. Outstation or hub, it doesn't matter. Write it up. And if RZ calls you in for a carpet dance, make sure you bring the Union.

Hold the line or burn it down.

Shrek
02-19-2009, 12:52 AM
Unless they're a "Lindbergher"

If they were, are or about to be a Lindbergher........they do not have the right to have EVER been a waterskiier. :cool:
They were Lindberghers all along.......

skippy
02-19-2009, 03:45 AM
the writeup issue is simply not true- next time mx says that write a report or fsap--- it takes less than 5 minutes--- where are people's brains and balls these days

you know, back in the day when we heard stuff like that, we actually increased writeups when we heard such drivel--of course we only had to do it for a few days , than magically something good came out of it.


go to 3:14 into the video and watch- it's so pertinent-- FIX IT


Saturday Night Live - Update Thursday: Part 2 - Video - NBC.com (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-thursday-part-2/742141/)

CaptainCarl
02-19-2009, 06:39 AM
the writeup issue is simply not true- next time mx says that write a report or fsap--- it takes less than 5 minutes--- where are people's brains and balls these days

you know, back in the day when we heard stuff like that, we actually increased writeups when we heard such drivel--of course we only had to do it for a few days , than magically something good came out of it.


go to 3:14 into the video and watch- it's so pertinent-- FIX IT


Saturday Night Live - Update Thursday: Part 2 - Video - NBC.com (http://www.nbc.com/Saturday_Night_Live/video/clips/update-thursday-part-2/742141/)

SNL needs to do a REALLY?!? segment on airline management.

"You paid your CEO 10.7 million dollars for running an airline with the WORST performance IN THE WORLD?! REALLY?!?"

Shrek
02-19-2009, 06:53 AM
SNL needs to do a REALLY?!? segment on airline management.

"You paid your CEO 10.7 million dollars for running an airline with the WORST performance IN THE WORLD?! REALLY?!?"

THAT would be an ALL-TIME classic.........LOL :D

wmupilot69
02-19-2009, 08:07 AM
I did talk to a MX in Stl who told me some really stupid. In IAD a crew had a minor write up, mx was out and fixed in 5 minutes (30+ minutes from departure), with only the paperwork left (which was completed in the truck as people boarded). People boarded on time and the only delay was bags, which took them 15 minutes after departure time to finish. Ops then blames mx since they were there, instead of ramp. That could be what United is ****ed about.

But then again that's not really our problem, like most things with IAD.

flyinaway411
02-19-2009, 08:15 AM
that doesnt surprise me at all!! i hate uax ops.

undflyboy06
02-19-2009, 08:28 AM
that doesnt surprise me at all!! i hate uax ops.

Especially when you are flying one of our "premium aircraft"....without acars and have to give your out and off times 2 or 3 times......and they still manage to screw it up.

AHHHH, our nations captiol. When passengers fly into dulless from over seas, there should be a sign that says.

" Welcome to Washington D.C., the city with the greatest population of retard/idiot/incompetent people per squre mile"

ehe2
02-19-2009, 08:41 AM
AHHHH, our nations captiol. When passengers fly into dulless from over seas, there should be a sign that says.

" Welcome to Washington D.C., the city with the greatest population of retard/idiot/incompetent people per squre mile"

That is the most true statement have heard in a long time.

sidestep
02-19-2009, 09:09 AM
That is the most true statement have heard in a long time.

Come to Kennedy, we might have a dog in that fight..:cool:

DryMotorBoatin
02-19-2009, 11:59 AM
Come to Kennedy, we might have a dog in that fight..:cool:


SOUNDS LIKE A CHALLENGE!

flynavyj
02-19-2009, 12:32 PM
I just received mail that says TSA won't have any jobs if the union doesn't accept the bridge program....scare tactics .... oooooooh.

A10crewdawg
02-19-2009, 01:04 PM
so what's the total furlough number up to now? A little over 20 percent of the pilot group?

Pilotpip
02-19-2009, 01:26 PM
I just received mail that says TSA won't have any jobs if the union doesn't accept the bridge program....scare tactics .... oooooooh.

They can't staff the CRJs as is. Call their bluff. Most of the people left were there when the GoJet thing went down three years ago. I don't think they're too worried about what happens if they don't accept Hulas's ultimatums.

Foxcow
02-19-2009, 01:54 PM
There were ~545 people on the seniority list last year. Right now, there are ~388 active pilots. Of the 155 or so pilots are no longer on property, most were furloughed but a number of those have quit.

Purpleanga
02-19-2009, 05:15 PM
I just received mail that says TSA won't have any jobs if the union doesn't accept the bridge program....scare tactics .... oooooooh.

How is that possible? Who's going to fly the ERJs?

flyinaway411
02-19-2009, 08:01 PM
i dont know about you guys, but im interested to hear opinions as to what it will take to vote yes if and when the time comes. for me... my expectations are very high, but i dont see them all getting met under any circumstance. no vote for me if contract doesnt have:

job protection
trip/duty rigs
significant pay raise
100% retro pay
cancellation pay on leg by leg basis
increased 401k match
better medical

i feel like im leaving something(s) out. anything short of that plus what we have already, gets a no vote from me. so what are your opinions?

CaptainCarl
02-19-2009, 08:35 PM
i dont know about you guys, but im interested to hear opinions as to what it will take to vote yes if and when the time comes. for me... my expectations are very high, but i dont see them all getting met under any circumstance. no vote for me if contract doesnt have:

job protection
trip/duty rigs
significant pay raise
100% retro pay
cancellation pay on leg by leg basis
increased 401k match
better medical

i feel like im leaving something(s) out. anything short of that plus what we have already, gets a no vote from me. so what are your opinions?

I am going to have to agree with everything you have there. I know it's unlikely that all the pilot's will get behind this list but that's ok, we only need 51%. If things improve at TSA, I will give some serious thought to accepting a recall, if and when it happens. However, at this point, with the way things are and have been, I would tell them to take their recall notice and shove it.

:eek: Oh! Don't forget FLiCA. Or Pref Bid. And it has to be 100% autonomous. And we need to test drive it before it gets implemented.

BURflyer
02-19-2009, 10:13 PM
However, at this point, with the way things are and have been, I would tell them to take their recall notice and shove it..

How have things been? Have you been beaten mercilessly by Hulas?? Have your rights as a worker been violated? Bunch of whining. I guess you should have done your homework by reading the ALPA TSA contract before you joined TSA.... Hulas has no responsibility to make you happy, he's providing your paycheck and if you don't like it you can leave, anytime. TSA is also one of the few that do not require you to sign a contract, and they do JET training. Best are the cheerleaders on this forum who went to RAH,Xjet,Skw with the free type from Hulas University, cheering from the sidelines for the pilot group to stick it to managment. I'm all for getting something better but burning down the house for not getting something that Hulas is not required to give you is just plain stupid. That's the sort of mentality I guess that got TSA in this situation in the first place. Pardon my French...

Foxcow
02-19-2009, 10:23 PM
Oh! Don't forget FLiCA. Or Pref Bid. And it has to be 100% autonomous. And we need to test drive it before it gets implemented.


I'm going to add in transparency for FLICA or Prefbid(if it happens).


How have things been? Have you been beaten mercilessly by Hulas?? Have your rights as a worker been violated? Bunch of whining. I guess you should have done your homework by reading the ALPA TSA contract before you joined TSA.... Hulas has no responsibility to make you happy, he's providing your paycheck and if you don't like it you can leave, anytime. TSA is also one of the few that do not require you to sign a contract, and they do JET training. Best are the cheerleaders on this forum who went to RAH,Xjet,Skw with the free type from Hulas University, cheering from the sidelines for the pilot group to stick it to managment. I'm all for getting something better but burning down the house for not getting something that Hulas is not required to give you is just plain stupid. That's the sort of mentality I guess that got TSA in this situation in the first place. Pardon my French...

And thats why you work for gojet.

flyinaway411
02-19-2009, 11:12 PM
1. BURflyer isnt worth the time to type about, and his comments mean nothing...so just ignore him.

2. i agree with the FLiCA comments. i do not support any type of pref bid, however. thats just me. its not necessarily a make or break item for me, unless it lacks transparency.

So of the items i listed, you all agree they are "no"-vote worthy if management doesnt come through? Again, just trying to get a general consensus besides that of the guys i fly with.

s10an
02-20-2009, 05:08 AM
How have things been? Have you been beaten mercilessly by Hulas?? Have your rights as a worker been violated? Bunch of whining. I guess you should have done your homework by reading the ALPA TSA contract before you joined TSA.... Hulas has no responsibility to make you happy, he's providing your paycheck and if you don't like it you can leave, anytime. TSA is also one of the few that do not require you to sign a contract, and they do JET training. Best are the cheerleaders on this forum who went to RAH,Xjet,Skw with the free type from Hulas University, cheering from the sidelines for the pilot group to stick it to managment. I'm all for getting something better but burning down the house for not getting something that Hulas is not required to give you is just plain stupid. That's the sort of mentality I guess that got TSA in this situation in the first place. Pardon my French...

I hope you are stuck at Scumjets when you try to get a new contract. But hey, guess it will be easy for you guys... You sign anything and lower the bar for the rest of us...

flynavyj
02-20-2009, 05:25 AM
How have things been? Have you been beaten mercilessly by Hulas?? Have your rights as a worker been violated? Bunch of whining. I guess you should have done your homework by reading the ALPA TSA contract before you joined TSA.... Hulas has no responsibility to make you happy, he's providing your paycheck and if you don't like it you can leave, anytime. TSA is also one of the few that do not require you to sign a contract, and they do JET training. Best are the cheerleaders on this forum who went to RAH,Xjet,Skw with the free type from Hulas University, cheering from the sidelines for the pilot group to stick it to managment. I'm all for getting something better but burning down the house for not getting something that Hulas is not required to give you is just plain stupid. That's the sort of mentality I guess that got TSA in this situation in the first place. Pardon my French...

Buddy, if you make it back, you can expect a helluva time from every individual you fly with. You talk about people bailing and telling us to "hold the line" when you couldn't do the same. All that any employer is "required" to do is provide a pay check, but your grand father, your father, they fought to improve working conditions and make a wage and a lifestyle that was worth living, not slaving away for a dime just so they could feed their family. I'm sure that since you've relinquished yourself to Gojet, that you feel as if you've found many brothers in arms, who "feel your pain" and "see your side" of things...Truth is, you're in the minority, it's just you, and your pseudo scabs who have your back...If your recall letter does come, i pray you stay over there.

As for items worth voting No over. I'd agree to everything on the list. The most important for me would be Job Security (One List). If they can't get that on there, i don't care about ANYTHING else, without it, it's a contract written on toilet paper. Duty / Trip rigs would be one of the next things on the list as it'll make the trips more efficient or at least get us paid for the inefficiencies. 100% DH, they believe to pay us less because we don't "work" however, i look at it as "I can't log the time, doesn't help me better my resume, it's work i'd rather not be doing, so they should compensate us justly for it". Should honestly be 150% DH pay the way it is at respectable companies out there, that way they will try to avoid DH people places, and it make it more than worthwhile for the employee. Better medical plans (they're a joke and cost to much) and revisions to minimum days off.

Salukipilot4590
02-20-2009, 10:14 AM
If your recall letter does come, i pray you stay over there.



I thought they had to resign their seniority numbers or some such thing. Who knew?

BURflyer
02-20-2009, 11:31 AM
they fought to improve working conditions and make a wage and a lifestyle that was worth living, not slaving away for a dime just so they could feed their family.

Oh please.. you're breaking my heart. TSA is just like any other crappy regional out there. You just work a day or two more and get paid a fraction more/less. This isn't 1912. You can supercharge the crappy regional pay but at the end of the day it's still crappy regional pay. You guys are so blinded by your hatred that you don't know which way is up. You are working for literally the lowest of the lowest bidder. Possibly lower than JO?? You're not working for Fedex, keep that in mind... This management is not out there to please their employees, they've apprantely made that clear since Hulas started. I am not saying it's right, but I understand that it's their court and I'm playing on it.

flyinaway411
02-20-2009, 12:17 PM
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww159/flyinaway411/tsapilot.jpg

250 or point 65
02-20-2009, 12:21 PM
hey, that's not bad

i was a little worried about the "burn it down" part cause i'm not sure how that could be construed by passengers.

however, i like the matchbox and the hold the line....

ehe2
02-20-2009, 12:27 PM
Oh please.. you're breaking my heart. TSA is just like any other crappy regional out there. You just work a day or two more and get paid a fraction more/less. This isn't 1912. You can supercharge the crappy regional pay but at the end of the day it's still crappy regional pay. You guys are so blinded by your hatred that you don't know which way is up. You are working for literally the lowest of the lowest bidder. Possibly lower than JO?? You're not working for Fedex, keep that in mind... This management is not out there to please their employees, they've apprantely made that clear since Hulas started. I am not saying it's right, but I understand that it's their court and I'm playing on it.

You no longer have a horse in this race...go on now, and let us fight for what is right...

"TSA is just like any other crappy regional out there." Why is that? It is because of people like you.

"This isn't 1912." No, it is 2009... We are going to be in this job for awhile. The job market is dry and we have few choices as places to go. We need this place to have some better pay and quality of life. (especially because of the comming inflation)

"You are working for literally the lowest of the lowest bidder. Possibly lower than JO??" We used to be the middle of the road traditionally. CHQ used to be smaller than us and had less QOL and pay. Look how things have changed over time. Their union fought for them, they have a respectable contract, relatively happy pilot group and continued growth. As for JO, F#$% JO!

"This management is not out there to please their employees, they've apprantely made that clear since Hulas started." Hulas likes money, yes. Happy employees make money for a company. (i.e. The GJ cool aide you all drink.)

ehe2
02-20-2009, 12:29 PM
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww159/flyinaway411/tsapilot.jpg


I WANT ONE!!!

TBucket
02-20-2009, 12:32 PM
You no longer have a horse in this race...

You know, I'm not entirely sure of that... From what I hear, Holdings can't get financing for more planes for Gojet because they're using money TSA makes to do so. Apparently, the financing companies won't give them the money with the current contract issues they have. So if we stand up and fight, it will cost Burflyer and his pseudo-scab buddies flying, upgrades, and all those pseudo-scabtastic new hires pushing him up the seniority list. Of course he wants us to settle for some bottom-feeder excuse for a contract. It helps the company farm our flying out to THEM...

Ignore him because, just like when they were started, he's hoping to make out personally on good pilots' losses.

TBucket
02-20-2009, 12:38 PM
Or, perhaps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/DrunkenAviator/tsa.jpg

undflyboy06
02-20-2009, 12:53 PM
I also like that one :)

CaptainCarl
02-20-2009, 12:53 PM
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww159/flyinaway411/tsapilot.jpg

Or, perhaps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/DrunkenAviator/tsa.jpg

Maybe we just need the "Hold the line or... *Matchbox/book*"

I'm flattered by the way :cool:

ehe2
02-20-2009, 01:00 PM
Or, perhaps:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/DrunkenAviator/tsa.jpg
YES!!!!! Just print hold the line...

flyinaway411
02-20-2009, 02:01 PM
i like it!! run it by the MEC and get these things out!

by the way, since RZ invites us to question his letter sent out, I will be doing just that.

If these clowns are so committed to the pilot group and the work we do, why didnt we get a contract when the economy was good? ughh...so frustrating.

HOLD THE LINE!!

DryMotorBoatin
02-20-2009, 02:03 PM
i like it!! run it by the MEC and get these things out!

by the way, since RZ invites us to question his letter sent out, I will be doing just that.



HOLD THE LINE!!

i guess they couldnt afford the postage to mail it to us furloughed guys...whatd the letter have to say?

BURflyer
02-20-2009, 02:05 PM
pseudo-scabtastic new hires .

Thanks I laughed for a good 30 seconds. That was funny.

flyinaway411
02-20-2009, 02:08 PM
i guess they couldnt afford the postage to mail it to us furloughed guys...whatd the letter have to say?

ill post it tonight. it gets mailed to my "official address" so i just had it read to me. its being scanned and emailed to me tonight, when i get back on ill post it.

Pilotpip
02-20-2009, 02:51 PM
This user is on your Ignore List.

Do you guys hear something?

Positive_Rate
02-20-2009, 03:45 PM
i like it!! run it by the MEC and get these things out!

by the way, since RZ invites us to question his letter sent out, I will be doing just that.

If these clowns are so committed to the pilot group and the work we do, why didnt we get a contract when the economy was good? ughh...so frustrating.

HOLD THE LINE!!

I can't wait to read this thing.

YES!!!!! Just print hold the line...

Great idea:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/JetsGoWhee/holdtheline.jpg

That'll go great on my flight kit next to:

http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/JetsGoWhee/gj1.jpg


Do you guys hear something?


Nope. Just the endless dribble of backstabber.

Razorback flyer
02-20-2009, 06:24 PM
Lets presume for a second that TSA goes on strike. Hulas transfers the aircraft and flying to go jet.

Now the teamsters, on a national level, have to make a decision. To fly these airplanes would constitute flying struck work - you are litterally crossing another union's picket line, and thus are loosing all credibility as a union. This has the potential to cause a rift within the teamsters as many rank and file members (other than the go jetters) may take issue with their own union scabbing.

Hopefully ALPA national will be quick to point this out, and make some hard decisions of its own - like finally taking a stand against the alter ego. Their credibility rides on this as well, as many alter-ego situations are brewing in relation to open skies.

In short, I don't think this is a quick case of Hulas shutting TSA down if you hold the line, and may even have the potential to be thrust onto the national/international stage. I also think that management is keenly aware that the political winds have changed significantly, and that the road to self help may have just gotten substantially shorter. Their bridge agreement is likely a panicked response to this realization.

I don't envy you the road ahead, but know that those who have been there are watching, and you have our support.

250 or point 65
02-20-2009, 07:14 PM
I like all those pictures...any chance at it saying

"Trans States Pilots are ready to...."

cause i think this makes for a dual meaning ready to strike (a match) and ready to burn it down.

what do you guys think? lets post a couple examples and we'll take a poll. i got a sticker guy that could make these up. we can even leave ALPA out of it because that makes it a real grass roots thing that can't be miscontrued as ALPA propaganda.

CaptainCarl
02-20-2009, 07:29 PM
I like all those pictures...any chance at it saying

"Trans States Pilots are ready to...."

cause i think this makes for a dual meaning ready to strike (a match) and ready to burn it down.

what do you guys think? lets post a couple examples and we'll take a poll. i got a sticker guy that could make these up. we can even leave ALPA out of it because that makes it a real grass roots thing that can't be miscontrued as ALPA propaganda.

Sounds good to me. When we decide, I need a couple sent to me seeing as how I'm not local in STL, IAD, or RIC anymore. Whoever gets 'em made, PM me for an address. Thanks.

TBucket
02-20-2009, 07:37 PM
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee33/JetsGoWhee/holdtheline.jpg



I like that one even better.

RuttR
02-20-2009, 08:17 PM
hey, that's not bad

i was a little worried about the "burn it down" part cause i'm not sure how that could be construed by passengers.



Well, it was that or our first idea, "cash or splash".

RuttR
02-20-2009, 09:23 PM
I'm not sure if the scope thing is exactly correct. The rumors that Gojet was looking for CRJ2s in the desert was correct. Why would they be looking at them if they couldn't use them in the first place?

I heard that too. The CRJ200 was apparently at UAL's request. Which was later counter proposed with erj145. After the holidays, I asked the admin assist. when we getting this 15 planes? She said, "oh that was just a rumor..." Which I wouldnt doubt that it was nothing more. It could have been started to keep scheduled furloughed pilots from calling in sick over the holidays. I dont know. I have still yet to hear from the union that it was confirmed. Regardless, I'm still convinced UAL would have to award TSA flying to gojets.

boilerpilot
02-20-2009, 10:26 PM
How have things been? Have you been beaten mercilessly by Hulas?? Have your rights as a worker been violated? Bunch of whining. I guess you should have done your homework by reading the ALPA TSA contract before you joined TSA.... Hulas has no responsibility to make you happy, he's providing your paycheck and if you don't like it you can leave, anytime. TSA is also one of the few that do not require you to sign a contract, and they do JET training. Best are the cheerleaders on this forum who went to RAH,Xjet,Skw with the free type from Hulas University, cheering from the sidelines for the pilot group to stick it to managment. I'm all for getting something better but burning down the house for not getting something that Hulas is not required to give you is just plain stupid. That's the sort of mentality I guess that got TSA in this situation in the first place. Pardon my French...

If TSA went on strike because of this, and TSH management made the move to transfer all the flying over to GoJet, would you be willing to fly those new jets? Because if you were, that's crossing a picket line, and if you weren't, then wouldn't you be showing the same willingness to "burn it down"? You see, this is similar to the dilemma facing TSA pilots right now. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Might as well stand up for your morals.

We'll see what the majority of the GoJet pilots are willing to do.

skippy
02-21-2009, 04:51 AM
I heard that too. The CRJ200 was apparently at UAL's request. Which was later counter proposed with erj145. After the holidays, I asked the admin assist. when we getting this 15 planes? She said, "oh that was just a rumor..." Which I wouldnt doubt that it was nothing more. It could have been started to keep scheduled furloughed pilots from calling in sick over the holidays. I dont know. I have still yet to hear from the union that it was confirmed. Regardless, I'm still convinced UAL would have to award TSA flying to gojets.



this is copied from the UAL ALPA site- i dont belive they have any intention of getting more 50 seaters: it must've been a tactic as they said above- keep your hopes up and keep from calling in sick- it must've worked- b/c you guys didnt get sued like UAL did

What is the straight truth on management’s fleet plans for United Airlines and United Express?

Truth: From January 2008 through December 2009 there will be a net reduction of 100 mainline airplanes (94 - 737s and 6 - 747s). During this time frame, we will see a net increase of 14 United Express Airplanes. There will be an increase of 33 RJ70s, a reduction of 7 RJ50s, and a reduction of 12 UAX turboprop airplanes.

RuttR
02-21-2009, 06:10 AM
(reposted after i removed my profanity :cool:)

Lets presume for a second that TSA goes on strike. Hulas transfers the aircraft and flying to go jet.

I dont think thats possible. That flying was awarded to TSA from UAL. You cant just transfer flying like that. It would be like giving mesa our contract. UAL would have to award that flying to gojet.

Unions, not just in the airline industry, have been taking a beating over the last decade. Private sector wages, at one time, used to have to compete with union jobs; driving up wages for, not only union, but non- union workers. Higher wages cause more people to spend more. We need this. We need someone to reverse this concession trend and flight to raise the bar rather than argue about who has lowered it more.

Regional airlines dont have to be "crappy". We can not afford to have them "crappy". Mainline domestic flying is becoming a thing of the past. Are some of us becoming a victim of 'resignation', a hazardous attitude we learned from piloting 101? We are not helpless and we can make a difference. Now don’t be afraid to “burn it down.”

Foxcow
02-21-2009, 09:13 AM
Here is the letter from our chief pilot. By the way, negotiates against the pilots on behalf of the company.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/P2214602.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/P2214603.jpg

DryMotorBoatin
02-21-2009, 09:23 AM
I miss the good 'ol days of workin at TSA when RZ's letters were very threatening in nature. This has too nice of a tone to it.

Salukipilot4590
02-21-2009, 09:23 AM
Here is the letter from our chief pilot. By the way, negotiates against the pilots on behalf of the company.


I love it! :eek:

I'm just glad I didn't have the displeasure of reading that out here in LA...would have made my blood boil...and I don't need that right now.

I miss the good 'ol days of workin at TSA when RZ's letters were very threatening in nature. This has too nice of a tone to it.

I actually loved it when D.G. threatened to "terminate" me for calling in sick...fun times!

Foxcow
02-21-2009, 09:26 AM
I can honestly say that I got a good laugh... and a few extra sheets of toilet paper.

boilerpilot
02-21-2009, 09:27 AM
Shocking. Especially that first paragraph on the second page. That they even have the nerve to say that is revolting.

CaptainCarl
02-21-2009, 10:06 AM
Hahaha! Hey Foxcow, I think RZ is hitting on you man ("Very Truly Yours"). Lol.

If the company were in such a rut, why won't they give us a copy of their economic situation? If they don't have the ability to grant us our wish-list then they should make an effort to prove it to us, as a sign of "good faith."

My interpretation of the letter/propoganda: "Take what we are offering or lose your jobs." Yeah, right...

flyinaway411
02-21-2009, 10:48 AM
Thanks for posting the letter. I know i said I would...but got in late last night.

Interesting times are ahead.

johnso29
02-21-2009, 11:10 AM
I can honestly say that I got a good laugh... and a few extra sheets of toilet paper.


Exactly! F em! More scare tactics from a management team that refuses to pay their employees a minimum of industry standard wages. What an insult. Burn it down! They don't care about any of you. Why should you care about them? :mad:

skippy
02-21-2009, 11:12 AM
HOLY FREAKING crap this is THE MOST UNREAL MEMO I HAVE SEEN: and thanks for posting it


there are so many things wrong with this memo--- ill dissect them so you can understand them--: page one and let's being with the introduction----

1. i love how they personalize it , IE dear Christopher , like they are your best friend, not mr or first officer or captain so and so MY BUDDY CHRISTOPHER -- can you say mass form letter to pilot group with no real thought into any of them or the families that they are ultimately going to affect

2. i love how they put the unemployment rate in there as if we dont know, not reminded daily int eh news, and as if their inability to manage and reward the very employees that help build the sister company hasnt freaking contributed to it! If they arent careful, they may be a part of it too.

3. A difficult economic climate and they are doing you a favor by this "bridge agreement--- it's a freaking BRIDGE TO NOWHERE!!!! and yes although i came up with THAT , please put that MF on a sticker in combination with a frank was right and burn the MF down!!!! arent you finished getting the company thru their tough times that they basically impose on themselves and financing TSA pilot's possible ultimate demise? stop and read the freaking letter people.

4. i cant believe they think what they are offering is acceptable-- well i guess i can-- i hope you dont think it is

5. higher year of service pay for captains and fo's typical split the pilot group tactic- dont fall for it-- as eric cartman would say "L A M E" and god damn if your a 7 year fo at TSA on the freaking 145 you should have your ATP revoked for lack of freaking judgement and character-- did frank doss say this on the first day of groundschool? i love how they put the monetary worth figure it out after 20-27% in taxes and it aint schit

6. a. when ( besides ASAP- and even then with some dilligence) has a company -Labor COMMITTEE gotten anything accomplished , ... WHEN how is the labor committee going i wonder--- did anyone proof read this letter are most of you not aware of past indiscretions.
b. they will impliment the commuter policy?-- they created the nightmare of people getting to work-- the company makes it sound like they are giving you something that many other airlines have as the STANDARD-- what is the trip drop rate? is it even in the double digits - percentage wise? FLICA--- excuse me while i FLICA buggar on this letter.

7. Another extension woo hoo as if you need another one of those--- they seem to keep using the current state of the economy at the time--- IN FACT TSA LOVES TO NEGOTIATE IN A DOWN ECONOMY-- they will never negotiate in a good one why should they-- they cant ask for concessions then. again UFB. your work rules will be over 12 years old at the time of renegotiations, provided tsa is still around-- they keep extending b/c they know the cost of the contract and its stable and they can project their profits quite easily-- add some twists and turns and it becomes more difficult to project and give those figures to the bank to get the loans for guess who,, geauxjet-- where is TSA's growth, where is your protection-- what good is a bridge to nowhere agreement if there isnt anything in a few years or you dont have a job---- they really just want to reset their negotiation clock-- as if they are going to just say OK it's 2011 -- we're ready to begin where we left off--- who in their right minds believes this crap? who

8. ( page 2) Disappointed? are you freaking serious Disappointed the MEC doesnt let the pilot group vote why? so that you can get a "NO" majority-- like your infamous crappy geauxjet proposal a few years back-- yeah how'd that turn out-- we voted on it and we knew what was gong to happen 75% said F.U. And i really appreciate thsoe who voted no-- you have clearly demonstrated that you arent afraid to say "NO" and trust me mgmnt doesnt like it when they cant predict what the pilot group will do-- they do things like Send this crappy letter out to scare its pilots-- i remember when they were hounding all the first officers who had just got off probation trying to scare them-- they even went after the ones that couldnt vote, thinking they would talk amongst themselves and get them to vote for it----- well again, you cant scare someone who isnt easily frightened- and has nothing to lose- after all TSA has probably screwed them at one time or another and payback - as they say - is a MOFO. think about the numbers of the percentages they documented 12.8 percent of $30 is only about 3.50 and of course 4.9% of let's say $80 is $4 so dont belive the hype they produce those percentage on preset years of service and expect you to say wow im getting a 13% raise-- doesnt work like that rainman! Plus you guys are below industry avg anyway-- i havent seen the rates are they even industry avg-- please tell me they are above mesa-- if not then you can bet what my vote would be.



9. did anyone catch the MEC Zinger they put in there about this not being a last and final offer -- they were of course referring to the geauxjet fiasco-- i guess they were right-- and again the pilot group shouldnt be scared so what--- I seriously doubt they will get rid of their cash cow-- they need TSA to make money to funnel it elsewhere-- play some poker, call their bluff they said these decisions caused directly or indirectly the loss of jobs at TSA-- you should ask an upper member of mgmnt that if we had signed the geauxjet letter would they have still furloughed? and watch their facial expression-- someone take a picture and we'll put it on SNL's "OH REALLY?"

10. i love how they make it sound as if the MEC is screwing over its own pilot group-- trust me-- the outcome would be no-- it might be close but it would still be a "NO" and then where would mgmnt be-- can someone set up a poll here?
MISJUDGING the company's intensions------ WOW those are some pretty serious words from the company who enters into agreements with vague language and only the selfish interest of the company---- tell me what were the company's intensions with captain's authority and the jumpseat, pref bid, flica, geauxjet, asap, wrongfully terminating and targeting elected union officials and heads of committess-- please tell me---- the mec doesnt misjudge, the calculate and strategize b/c the TSA mgmnt's track record is fukcing ABYSMAL and to this date I cant declare one act of good faith in the 9 years i was there.

11. ALPA posturing-- well isnt that the pot calling the kettle black thats all TSA does- b/c thats all they can do.

12. staple them and that way the active tsa pilots will at least have some sort of furlough/job protection---- there is no reason to sign an agreement if the viability of the company is even in question--- just like i couldnt vote republican b/c mccain hated pilots and the profession and of course labor-- i couldn't side with the company even though they pay my bills knowing that they are not expanding, not taking advantages of synergies b/w companies, and frivolously spending money on the very sister company that screwed the pilots in the first place.

13. Trust your MEC, the company just wants to throw away the probably millions of dollars in your dues that were spent in trying to gain an industry avg - not leading-- just avg contract with the protections and qualities of life that you deserve and require to make this profession even worth coming to work

This classic company maneuvering tactic is typical --
1. negotiate in a down economy, so its pilot group has to negotiate itself out of a hole as if you put them in that hole
2. delay which gives them precious time to stabilize their profits and get financing to use to fund the geauxjet expansion
3. fear and terror
4. divide and conquer

i think they just got back from a negotiating convention and are trying their get along with others routine to see if they got their 99.99 worth.

Hope this helps you see the light thru all the BS.



SKIPPY

Purpleanga
02-21-2009, 11:56 AM
The first paragraph on the second page basically says that GOjet was TSA pilot's fault. Aren't chief pilots supposed to be protecting the pilot's interests?? I agree with everyone, without scope(job security) it's not worth it. And scope within a regional airline is not that big of a deal, yet they don't want to agree to it just yet. Hmm..... leads to believe that the company has cynical intentions rather than the good will that the letter implies.

By the way? Why do they keep saying TSA pilot will be out of a job? That's probably not legal in the first place especially with the current gov change and also who's going to fly the ERJs???

flyinaway411
02-21-2009, 12:17 PM
a union guy called my captain last night and asked him what the mood was in STL after this letter wen out, cuz i guess IAD guys are a little worried. geez i hope their not buying this B.S.!! my captain told him, "well, my FO just said he'd rather see the place cease to exist than to work under an extension!" that couldn't be more true.

fantastic post skippy!! couldn't agree more with EVERYTHING you said. DO NOT LET THEM INTIMIDATE!! i re-read the letter today, and it just makes my blood boil.

250 or point 65
02-21-2009, 12:33 PM
Are you serious? what do we IAD guys have anything to be worried about. Most of us are losing our jobs already or at the very least have been displaced. We ARE the "burn it down" guys.

We don't even have a DVD player...

CaptainCarl
02-21-2009, 12:42 PM
Isn't RZ supposed to be looking out for the interests of his pilots? He does realize that he is the Chief Pilot of Trans States, right? GoJet already has a bi-polar dude running their show. Can't have two Chief Pilots. RZ better get his head screwed on straight because if he thinks the upper management will protect his job when everything goes up in flames, I think he is wrong.

ExperimentalAB
02-21-2009, 01:40 PM
Saw EP walking through T2 today at ORD. He saw me and immediately looked the other way...he couldn't have recognized me LoL. But regardless, he looked mortified and old. I think y'all are wearing 'em down :D

skippy
02-21-2009, 01:40 PM
mgmnt always takes care of their own- remember that

Copperhed51
02-21-2009, 03:40 PM
Anybody know if furloughed pilots are getting this letter too? I'm in Wyoming in ground school right now and can't get my mail back in Kansas til I finish up here. I love the "Bridge to Nowhere" sticker idea. Even though I'm at a different airline right now, I'd love to get some of these stickers for my bags. Once a Waterskier, always a Waterskier, right?

Xelectro
02-21-2009, 03:50 PM
Unless you go to GoJet, then you are a JetSkier

Positive_Rate
02-21-2009, 04:38 PM
Once a Waterskier, always a Waterskier, right?


Yep. Only exception is if they use the Lindbergh call sign...then they're just scum.

Copperhed51
02-21-2009, 05:01 PM
So my buddy who's also furloughed just texted me saying he couldn't get on the employee website anymore and I just tried and I'm locked out too. I was just on there a few days ago. Anybody know what's up?

TBucket
02-21-2009, 05:47 PM
I had nothing to do with this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/DrunkenAviator/tsastickerfinal.jpg


Or this:

Trans States Pilots/Hold the Line Bumper sticker from Zazzle.com (http://www.zazzle.com/trans_states_pilots_hold_the_line_bumper_sticker-128726833304177751)

s10an
02-21-2009, 06:15 PM
I had nothing to do with this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/DrunkenAviator/tsastickerfinal.jpg


Or this:

Trans States Pilots/Hold the Line Bumper sticker from Zazzle.com (http://www.zazzle.com/trans_states_pilots_hold_the_line_bumper_sticker-128726833304177751)

I LIKE IT ALOT!!!

Pilotpip
02-21-2009, 06:25 PM
If you guys get stickers made I want one. Please PM me on how to get one (and any alterego stickers, mine's trashed)

CaptainCarl
02-21-2009, 08:13 PM
I had nothing to do with this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v95/DrunkenAviator/tsastickerfinal.jpg


Or this:

Trans States Pilots/Hold the Line Bumper sticker from Zazzle.com (http://www.zazzle.com/trans_states_pilots_hold_the_line_bumper_sticker-128726833304177751)

Awesome! The best one yet!

Does someone want to ask the Union if they want to buy these in bulk? I don't mind buying my own, but 10.95 for one sticker? That's a little steep for someone collecting unemployment. If the Union buys them in bulk and charges us a dollar or two for them, then they can get some money back for the total cost of the stickers plus the shipping and handling costs, instead of all of us spending ten bucks on one sticker.

TBucket
02-21-2009, 08:23 PM
Yeah, it quoted me like, $7 for the cheapest shipping... That's a little ridiculous... I think if they made those rat stickers, they should be able to come up with something for this!

250 or point 65
02-21-2009, 09:34 PM
I'm not against ALPA or anything, but I really don't want anyone to think that this is union propaganda. This was an idea that we collectively, as a group came up with.

Let's do this on our own!

proav8r
02-21-2009, 09:54 PM
So my buddy who's also furloughed just texted me saying he couldn't get on the employee website anymore and I just tried and I'm locked out too. I was just on there a few days ago. Anybody know what's up?

same thing here, makes you wonder..

Foxcow
02-21-2009, 10:12 PM
Hahaha! Hey Foxcow, I think RZ is hitting on you man ("Very Truly Yours"). Lol.

If the company were in such a rut, why won't they give us a copy of their economic situation? If they don't have the ability to grant us our wish-list then they should make an effort to prove it to us, as a sign of "good faith."

My interpretation of the letter/propoganda: "Take what we are offering or lose your jobs." Yeah, right...



Hehe.


Also, for those that were wondering about the alleged billboard that the union put up... Sorry about the poor picture quality as it was cold and I did not have my tripod.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/P2214600.jpg

skippy
02-22-2009, 04:17 AM
i thought if a hilarious modifications- put up pictures of a certain lawyer and members of higher ( dare i say it) mgmnt in each corner-- how funny would that be

CaptainCarl
02-22-2009, 05:03 AM
I'm not against ALPA or anything, but I really don't want anyone to think that this is union propaganda. This was an idea that we collectively, as a group came up with.

Let's do this on our own!

The only reason I suggested the Union is because they already have our addresses and stuff, whereas if I were to order the stickers in bulk and then offer them to other pilots on APC, you guys would have to give me your address... Which, now that I think about it, isn't too bad. I don't need a name. Just an address. Could be any address, if you let them know you've got mail coming. Would that work?

250 or point 65
02-22-2009, 07:33 AM
Well, we don't need addresses if we just pass them out at the airport. Get a couple guys in each domicile...hey, i'm sitting airport reserve til March 16th...I see PLENTY of pilots each day who would buy one from me. I'm sure we can find someone in STL, and RIC to do the same.

What do you think?

Salukipilot4590
02-22-2009, 12:19 PM
So my buddy who's also furloughed just texted me saying he couldn't get on the employee website anymore and I just tried and I'm locked out too. I was just on there a few days ago. Anybody know what's up?

Well I'm sure locked out too!

Bummer! I liked checking out the new bid packs and stuff...:(

DryMotorBoatin
02-22-2009, 01:37 PM
Well I'm sure locked out too!

Bummer! I liked checking out the new bid packs and stuff...:(

I'm the aforementioned "buddy." I'm glad he didnt mention the other parts of that text...if ya know what I mean.

/hangs head and shows self door for awful joke

Purpleanga
02-22-2009, 02:30 PM
Well I'm sure locked out too!

Bummer! I liked checking out the new bid packs and stuff...:(

Not that it matters but yea, I can't log in either. All I know is that last time I checked my name was still on that recall list....

Salukipilot4590
02-22-2009, 02:56 PM
Not that it matters but yea, I can't log in either. All I know is that last time I checked my name was still on that recall list....

There was a recall list?!?!?!?!?!!

Then again I haven't had the chance to log in in over a month...

undflyboy06
02-22-2009, 04:57 PM
I find it pretty silly that we no longer have access to the company website, but we can still get on Crew Trac and FTWeb.

TBucket
02-22-2009, 10:38 PM
Maybe scheduling is waiting for you to self-notify that you've been furloughed? : (

bryris
02-23-2009, 05:43 AM
I quit nearly 3 months ago and I have been able to log into the site with no problems up until 2 days ago. I was able to check the bid packet on Feb 17th, so prob.

DryMotorBoatin
02-23-2009, 11:55 AM
The new stickers are here! The new stickers are here!

Positive_Rate
02-23-2009, 12:11 PM
Yep. Just got mine in the mail today.

Positive_Rate
02-23-2009, 12:13 PM
Maybe scheduling is waiting for you to self-notify that you've been furloughed? : (


That self-notification BS is the biggest waste of time for them. I refuse to notify myself. Nowhere does it say we are required to log into CrewTrac to be notified of a schedule change. Everyone should NOT use it. You're just taking Faye's job away from her...which is a challenge for her. (Is she still there? I haven't talked to her in months)

250 or point 65
02-23-2009, 12:43 PM
I just skipped to my mailbox like an excited little school girl when you guys said stickers were at my house!

i guess we'll have to change our stickers to:

Trans States Pilots:
HOLD THE LINE...

...and we'll be just fine.
...cause we're worth more than a dime.
...and a sign.
...out to eat we'll dine
...and drink some wine.
...and swing on a vine.
...cause everything from ALPA has to rhyme.

skippy
02-23-2009, 02:05 PM
,,, instead be being supine
... lets cause a bind
//mgmnt is blind
...now is our time
everything is not fine
.... we will not be kind
....what you have is MINE.
.. i though tthis was supposed to be our time... to take it back
.. im just going to ddrink some wine and make it all go away

Pilotpip
02-23-2009, 02:08 PM
Classic Skippy right there...

CaptainCarl
02-23-2009, 03:15 PM
The stickers we received today are a nice touch.

I think as pilots we should leave the rhyming to the rappers (and Joaquin Phoenix :D). I still think it should be:

Hold the line or burn it down.

DryMotorBoatin
02-23-2009, 03:21 PM
Has anybody given any consideration to T-shirts? Seeing how my flight bag is burried in my closet, I don't have much use for stickers nowadays but I do wear shirts frequently.

Copperhed51
02-23-2009, 03:27 PM
I don't have much use for stickers nowadays but I do wear shirts frequently.

I bet those inner city kids you're substitute teaching will think your shirt is in reference to some kind of drug situation. You'll get instant cool points for wearing it.

TBucket
02-23-2009, 09:08 PM
Dammit, I didn't get any stickers! If anyone has any extras, PM me so I can get one or two!



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