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View Full Version : Trans States/GoJet Endgame


CaptainCarl
04-19-2009, 12:22 AM
Like it or not ladies and gentlemen, I believe that Trans States and GoJet are headed for a merger. So, no matter how much some guys hate some other guys, we are all going to end up working together eventually. I am starting this thread to see if we can get everyone on the same page. It seems like the plot for Mission Impossible but it needs to happen. We can not continue arguing about the past. So, eyes front and let's figure out a way to keep Hulas' from screwing everyone.

Five bucks says this turns into a flame-fest.


250 or point 65
04-19-2009, 12:34 AM
Carl, get your tall butt off the bottle and go to bed :)

I agree somewhat, but although merged seniority list may happen sooner or later, the seat-lock that will most likely come with it will give us plenty of time to hash this out after our contract is ratified. I think you're definitely putting the cart before the horse.

jedinein
04-19-2009, 03:13 AM
Ummm, most of the pilots of both airlines are not on this forum. Best go through the unions for the love-fest.

Lynch mobs are always more fun in person.


Mach93
04-19-2009, 04:56 AM
What makes you think that this is going to happen?

Xelectro
04-19-2009, 05:54 AM
GoJet union said that there is no way this will happen. The union rep said that they will never agree.
GoJet doesn't want these TSA guys that will ***** about their contract and eventually start demanding more from them. Thats why they don't want to merge with TSA. It wont happen.

bryris
04-19-2009, 06:53 AM
There is little benefit to a merger. The reason most companies merge is for the surviving company to gain full control over the other. Hulas has full control over both companies now. Furthermore, there would be little economic benefit to the deal as it behooves him to have two companies opposed against each other. Look at all the folks who jumped over there from TSA - look at all the cheap labor they are getting, while being able to furlough on the TSA side. It resets the payscale clocks.

To them pilots are just background noise to their main objective - cheap operations and profit maximization.

From my viewpoint, it would be silly to merge. It anything, they'll finish furloughing everyone at TSA and rehire fresh pilots to staff a growing GoJet. It is my belief that this has been in the cards for a while.

I hope I am wrong.

lawpilot
04-19-2009, 06:58 AM
I can see the headline now-

"Flight attendant lands newly merged GoStates jet after brawl breaks out in cockpit"

Schwartz
04-19-2009, 06:59 AM
GoJet union said that there is no way this will happen. The union rep said that they will never agree.
GoJet doesn't want these TSA guys that will ***** about their contract and eventually start demanding more from them. Thats why they don't want to merge with TSA. It wont happen.

Their union does not have to agree to a merger. If Hulas decides it's cheaper, It'll be done; more expensive and it won't.

Positive_Rate
04-19-2009, 07:11 AM
Five bucks says this turns into a flame-fest.


I'm in for 5, too.

JRT123
04-19-2009, 08:30 AM
. It resets the payscale clocks.

Only if it's negotiated that way..

Purpleanga
04-19-2009, 09:12 AM
GoJet union said that there is no way this will happen. The union rep said that they will never agree.
GoJet doesn't want these TSA guys that will ***** about their contract and eventually start demanding more from them. Thats why they don't want to merge with TSA. It wont happen.

Don't listen to this guy. He's a furloughed Xjet who's probably still waiting for his class date at Gojet, doubt he's had any contact with a union rep. He also believes that UA is going to dump TSA and give the ERJ flying to Xjet any day now. Being former TSA, I know someone that went to Gojet and they were saying their attitude towards TSA is neutral and their union, seem to be working together with the TSA reps also about not mixing TSA/GJ routes/ops because of the nature of the two pilot groups. He wasn't really sure if GJ union reps are cronies to Hulas. The fact is that GJ pilots need a single list as well maybe not directly but there's a lot of bad blood out there and it will certainly quiet things down like it has for Mesa/Freedom. I sincerely doubt they care much about the "contract" like xelectro is implying. If they cared about the contract, they wouldn't be at Gojet in the first place.

TBucket
04-19-2009, 09:28 AM
I'm fairly certain that the parking-lot-attendant union over at GJ will do whatever Hulas tells it to.. The bottom line is that if hulas can have more money through a merged airline, he'll do it.. If not, there will continue to be two.. Remember, management cares nothing about our squabbles, or what's "right" or "wrong"... They like money, and will do whatever is necessary to get the most of it..

tr disagree
04-19-2009, 09:37 AM
Don't listen to this guy. He's a furloughed Xjet who's probably still waiting for his class date at Gojet, doubt he's had any contact with a union rep. He also believes that UA is going to dump TSA and give the ERJ flying to Xjet any day now. Being former TSA, I know someone that went to Gojet and they were saying their attitude towards TSA is neutral and their union, seem to be working together with the TSA reps also about not mixing TSA/GJ routes/ops because of the nature of the two pilot groups. He wasn't really sure if GJ union reps are cronies to Hulas. The fact is that GJ pilots need a single list as well maybe not directly but there's a lot of bad blood out there and it will certainly quiet things down like it has for Mesa/Freedom. I sincerely doubt they care much about the "contract" like xelectro is implying. If they cared about the contract, they wouldn't be at Gojet in the first place.


This guy is just scard that if their is a merger he will be furloughed again.

bidnez
04-19-2009, 10:26 AM
Will not happen- the idea is not supported by the G7 pilot group, or union.

Purpleanga
04-19-2009, 10:52 AM
Will not happen- the idea is not supported by the G7 pilot group, or union.

By the pilot group or those that are waiting right now for a class date? If you're already a GJ pilot there is no reason not to support this because it won't affect you, it will help the struggling TSA pilots and will legitimize Gojet. You guys aren't taking TSA jobs remember?:rolleyes: As much as they all would like to, a TSA pilot isn't going to take your spot so why would you care if they merge the lists? Yes they will take the spot of the current street pilots looking to get in to Gojet.

flyvne1971
04-19-2009, 12:35 PM
With one list,what would become of all the furloughed TSA plots that have more seniority than almost half of the Gojet pilots?

TSA has furloughed DOH 2 years and counting. Gojet has been around for 4.5 years. Would they call back all the furloughed TSA folks and furlough the Gojet folks. That would be alot of money wasted on training the furloughed TSA pilots to fly a plane that they already spent money on training someone else. Double the cost to fill one seat.

While one list is a great idea, I don't think Hulas wants to waste that kind of money. Maybe down the road when there are no pilots with recall rights at TSA...:rolleyes:

250 or point 65
04-19-2009, 12:36 PM
Will not happen- the idea is not supported by the G7 pilot group, or union.


There is so much mis-information in this thread already.

1) The GoJet pilot group doesn't have to agree to anything. Their mgmt controlled "union" has no say in anything. If the TSA negotiates it into the contract...that's how it is.

2) A "merger" is not what we're talking about. Duh, Hulas does not want merge the seniority list, but it's not about what he wants, its about what he'll agree to in the contract. It's not gonna be easy to get him to agree with anything having to do with job protection, but a strike threat will hit his pocketbook.

Purpleanga
04-19-2009, 01:32 PM
With one list,what would become of all the furloughed TSA plots that have more seniority than almost half of the Gojet pilots?

TSA has furloughed DOH 2 years and counting. Gojet has been around for 4.5 years. Would they call back all the furloughed TSA folks and furlough the Gojet folks. That would be alot of money wasted on training the furloughed TSA pilots to fly a plane that they already spent money on training someone else. Double the cost to fill one seat.

While one list is a great idea, I don't think Hulas wants to waste that kind of money. Maybe down the road when there are no pilots with recall rights at TSA...:rolleyes:

I agree with you, it just won't make any sense. And GJ pilots will keep their seat, I highly doubt gojet pilots will get furloughed because of a single list. Unfortunately for TSA, I think the only sensible option will be some kind of seat lock and a staple to the bottom, that will not cost Hulas money as he's already staffing the planes with street pilots. Why not F'ed TSA? I think the union cares about job security not seniority. So basically it would all be like it is now however GJ will use the hundered something F'ed TSA pilots to staff GJ. It's going to take time to even things out as far as seniority. Not to mention some of the TSA pilots will quit before flying for Gojet. Who knows.

bryris
04-19-2009, 01:41 PM
There is so much mis-information in this thread already.

1) The GoJet pilot group doesn't have to agree to anything. Their mgmt controlled "union" has no say in anything. If the TSA negotiates it into the contract...that's how it is.

2) A "merger" is not what we're talking about. Duh, Hulas does not want merge the seniority list, but it's not about what he wants, its about what he'll agree to in the contract. It's not gonna be easy to get him to agree with anything having to do with job protection, but a strike threat will hit his pocketbook.

A TSA strike, even if followed by an imminent shutdown of TSA would likely still not threaten Hulas into merging the two lists. The cost savings of two lists is just too inviting.

TSA is just a name. Hulas has built it that way. All the airplanes are leased, the offices are leased, the pilots are rented. I'd love to see the company's balance sheet. The only value to the company is the remaining time on the code share leases and whatever "brand value" there might be to the Trans States Airlines name (not much at all). The 145s are going to become more and more antiquated. Before long, they won't have much place at all - if for no other reason than age and efficiency, never mind the 50 seat capacity. A pilot who isn't trainined to fly anything else than the 145 is of no more value than a new pilot off the street. Vice versa is true, however, for obvious reasons (lack of seniority).

Furthermore, a group of junior pilots is much more controllable than a bunch of senior gruffs who'd rather just be home with their kids than flying.

A staple job might be the only way of doing it - but even that would leave Hulas licking his wounds. But it is possible. He's still got to pay higher up on the scale regardless of who upgrades first.

Purpleanga
04-19-2009, 01:50 PM
How did Mesa and Freedom do it? Any Mesa pilots around? Did they staple or DOH the lists? I know there's a seat lock as well.

250 or point 65
04-19-2009, 02:41 PM
A TSA strike, even if followed by an imminent shutdown of TSA would likely still not threaten Hulas into merging the two lists. The cost savings of two lists is just too inviting.


As you know, Hulas is a businessman...a smart businessman. TSA still makes money. If it didn't he'd just shut it down immediately. It doesn't seem he has the ego of say JO. He wouldn't just keep TSA in business so he wouldn't bruise his ego. The ONLY thing he cares about bruising is he pocketbook.

This is simple. Hulas likes TSA making money. No pilots, no money. For the first time in a long time we have a unified pilot group AND more importantly, leverage.

What does Hulas have to lose? Millions of $$$$$$
What do we have to lose? Nothing. "Well, you stand to lose your jobs!" Not really, because if we sign a contract that doesn't provide job protection, its just gonna burn down more slowly.

The point is, there are only 3 options
1) We strike, Hulas and ALPA come to an agreement that includes job protection.
B) We roll over and watch our jobs get eliminated as each lease ends.
3) We strike, Hulas shuts it down.

The third option won't happen because the union is not asking for anything so outrageous that it would be more cost effective for Hulas to shut down. You guys can go on and on about training costs all you want, but there is no way that the training costs spread over a time will cost him more than shutting the airline down. Anyone here heard of that small regional holding company....Republic? How many pilots did they retrain to save themselves labor costs?



Also, there are plenty of other ways to ensure job protection that do not involve merging lists.

Xelectro
04-19-2009, 02:53 PM
The bottom line is. Hulas likes GOJet, he likes their pilot group, they go to work get it done and don't complain. On the other hand TSA pilot group has been a pain in his ass for last couple of years. (Oh we want more pay, we want and want want stuff). if you merge the lists, there is a chance that the newly created pilot group will demand more pay better contract and stuff. Why take that chance. He much rather take guys from the street that agree to work for slightly less money.

Purpleanga
04-19-2009, 03:04 PM
The bottom line is. Hulas likes GOJet, he likes their pilot group, they go to work get it done and don't complain. On the other hand TSA pilot group has been a pain in his ass for last couple of years. (Oh we want more pay, we want and want want stuff). if you merge the lists, there is a chance that the newly created pilot group will demand more pay better contract and stuff. Why take that chance. He much rather take guys from the street that agree to work for slightly less money.

Hahaha, slightly less money?? How much less are we talking about here? a few pennies? It costs Hulas the same amount to taxi that Gojet plane form the ramp to the runway for one flight as it does to pay a gojet FO his monthly salary. Thanks for a good laugh xelectrro, it's obvious you know noting about labor. That's the whole point of the single list, to gain that TSA pilots will probably have to give up a few things. Unfortunately, there will probably have to be concessions like mesa pilots had with freedom.

embpilot
04-19-2009, 03:05 PM
when you say they work together and go to work etc....you really mean the roll when TSA tells'em to

Positive_Rate
04-19-2009, 03:05 PM
The bottom line is. Hulas likes GOJet, he likes their pilot group, they go to work get it done and don't complain. On the other hand TSA pilot group has been a pain in his ass for last couple of years. (Oh we want more pay, we want and want want stuff). if you merge the lists, there is a chance that the newly created pilot group will demand more pay better contract and stuff. Why take that chance. He much rather take guys from the street that agree to work for slightly less money.

I would respond to this drivel, but I fear I'd regret what I would type, so I'll just hold my fingers.

Incidently, Xel, why don't you change your position to GoJet FO instead of Furloughed FO? Just wondering...

Purpleanga
04-19-2009, 03:12 PM
Incidently, Xel, why don't you change your position to GoJet FO instead of Furloughed FO? Just wondering...

Probably because he's still a Gojet wannabe.

bryris
04-19-2009, 03:13 PM
As you know, Hulas is a businessman...a smart businessman. TSA still makes money. If it didn't he'd just shut it down immediately. It doesn't seem he has the ego of say JO. He wouldn't just keep TSA in business so he wouldn't bruise his ego. The ONLY thing he cares about bruising is he pocketbook.

This is simple. Hulas likes TSA making money. No pilots, no money. For the first time in a long time we have a unified pilot group AND more importantly, leverage.

What does Hulas have to lose? Millions of $$$$$$
What do we have to lose? Nothing. "Well, you stand to lose your jobs!" Not really, because if we sign a contract that doesn't provide job protection, its just gonna burn down more slowly.



I definitely see your point on this.

My point is that the type of flying that TSA does and the fact that it is only as valuable as the remaining contracts it signs, means that if played right, he could utilize GoJet to potentially outbid TSA, effectively moving all flying to GoJet.

There is no question that TSA makes money. And you are absolutely right that if there is a dime to be made, he'll stick it out. That is good business. But, perhaps the "endgame" here is that GoJet substitutes for TSA - the contracts are still being flown and the money is still in house. It'd be like me running a flight school, opening one across the field, hiring new instructors and telling the existing students to come on over - and closing the old school. In the end, the costs are lower.

I believe the only wildcard in this play is how the partners will react. But even they are chasing $$$, so this stuff can be overlooked given the right ingredients and pitching.

Management always has the upper hand in the end. Its just the way it is, as cold as it sounds. Battles may be won, but management wins the war, especially with the surplus of labor right now.

250 or point 65
04-19-2009, 03:19 PM
The bottom line is. Hulas likes GOJet, he likes their pilot group, they go to work get it done and don't complain. On the other hand TSA pilot group has been a pain in his ass for last couple of years. (Oh we want more pay, we want and want want stuff). if you merge the lists, there is a chance that the newly created pilot group will demand more pay better contract and stuff. Why take that chance. He much rather take guys from the street that agree to work for slightly less money.

Alright,

Can we stop it with the "Hulas doesn't want to merge lists" over and over again. We get it. Hulas doesn't want to merge lists. It would be a pain for Hulas to merge lists. It would cost Hulas some money to merge lists. List merging is not something Hulas wants to do. If it were Hulas' preference, the lists would not be merged. If there were a list of things Hulas wouldn't want to do, merging lists would be on that list.

Shall we make a list of reasons why Hulas doesn't want to merge lists?

Here's a bunch of other things Hulas does not want.

1) To pay his pilots over minimum wage.
2) To give us a commuter clause.
3) To give us better health insurance.
4) To pay us more per diem.

So I guess by your line of thinking, we shouldn't fight for anything Hulas doesn't want? I'll do you one better, I think we should promote what Hulas wants! Lets all send back whatever money he paid us over minimum wage. Lets all call up scheduling and ask if there might be anything we can do for them. Volunteer pay? No, Tracy, don't worry about it!

Rolling over sounds like a fantastic idea! Who's in!

Purpleanga
04-19-2009, 03:21 PM
I definitely see your point on this.

My point is that the type of flying that TSA does and the fact that it is only as valuable as the remaining contracts it signs, means that if played right, he could utilize GoJet to potentially outbid TSA, effectively moving all flying to GoJet.

There is no question that TSA makes money. And you are absolutely right that if there is a dime to be made, he'll stick it out. That is good business. But, perhaps the "endgame" here is that GoJet substitutes for TSA - the contracts are still being flown and the money is still in house. It'd be like me running a flight school, opening one across the field, hiring new instructors and telling the existing students to come on over - and closing the old school. In the end, the costs are lower.

I believe the only wildcard in this play is how the partners will react. But even they are chasing $$$, so this stuff can be overlooked given the right ingredients and pitching.

Management always has the upper hand in the end. Its just the way it is, as cold as it sounds.

That doesn't make any sense. Why would they go through all that trouble, which by the way the Pillsbury Doughboy has already ruled out saying it costs too much money to replace the ERJs during the time of those rumors about Gojet getting CRJ2. Why not just staple the lists which doesn't cost any more money and quiet things down? Forming a separate seniority lists based on a weak TSA scope clause is another thing but killing an airline and transferring it to another is completely different. I just don't see Hulas doing that, it goes against their conservative style management. Not to mention the mess that it will create with UA, ALPA and pilots. Unofficially, gojet and tsa are one company, everyone knows it. The merging of the lists and even the company would be as easy as it was to seperate them.

bryris
04-19-2009, 03:22 PM
Alright,

Can we stop it with the "Hulas doesn't want to merge lists" over and over again. We get it. Hulas doesn't want to merge lists. It would be a pain for Hulas to merge lists. It would cost Hulas some money to merge lists. List merging is not something Hulas wants to do. If it were Hulas' preference, the lists would not be merged. If there were a list of things Hulas wouldn't want to do, merging lists would be on that list.

Shall we make a list of reasons why Hulas doesn't want to merge lists?

Here's a bunch of other things Hulas does not want.

1) To pay his pilots over minimum wage.
2) To give us a commuter clause.
3) To give us better health insurance.
4) To pay us more per diem.

So I guess by your line of thinking, we shouldn't fight for anything Hulas doesn't want? I'll do you one better, I think we should promote what Hulas wants! Lets all send back whatever money he paid us over minimum wage. Lets all call up scheduling and ask if there might be anything we can do for them. Volunteer pay? No, Tracy, don't worry about it!

Rolling over sounds like a fantastic idea! Who's in!

:eek::eek::eek:

250 or point 65
04-19-2009, 03:22 PM
bryris,

Of course Hulas want to move flying to the GoJet side! However, he's only got so many airplanes over there. There's also evidence that he needs TSA as collateral for additional GJ purchases, so obviously TSA has value.

Your points just enforce that fact that the time is NOW to attempt a contract that includes job protection. TSA will die if we don't and we actually have some leverage here.

bryris
04-19-2009, 03:24 PM
That doesn't make any sense. Why would they go through all that trouble, which by the way the Pillsbury Doughboy has already ruled out saying it costs too much money to replace the ERJs during the time of those rumors about Gojet getting CRJ2. Why not just staple the lists which doesn't cost any more money and quiet things down? I just don't see Hulas doing that, it goes against their conservative style management. Not to mention the mess that it will create with ALPA and pilots.

I hope you're right man. I hope I am wrong. I don't have any stake in the game at TSA anymore, but I made a bunch of friends over there during my stay and I hope it plays out JUSTLY.

laserman2431
04-19-2009, 08:43 PM
bryris,

Of course Hulas want to move flying to the GoJet side! However, he's only got so many airplanes over there. There's also evidence that he needs TSA as collateral for additional GJ purchases, so obviously TSA has value.

Your points just enforce that fact that the time is NOW to attempt a contract that includes job protection. TSA will die if we don't and we actually have some leverage here.
What is the leverage you have on Hulas? A strike?

That makes about as much sense as the comments that GoJet pilots will support a merge so that you will quit being mad at them.

250 or point 65, I think you have an overinflated opinion about how intimidating you are. I can see how a strike would be a delicious fantasy for someone in your position but I really don't think anybody is basing any decisions on trying to avoid something that is very unlikely.

I have an image of 250 or point 65 as a bully on the playground that nobody is afraid of. He can't understand why everyone laughs when he demands they give him their milk money.

ToiletDuck
04-19-2009, 08:58 PM
GoJet doesn't want these TSA guys that will ***** about their contract and eventually start demanding more from them.

So wait GJ pilots don't want people who will fight for a better contract? Figures.

laserman2431
04-19-2009, 09:11 PM
Alright,

Can we stop it with the "Hulas doesn't want to merge lists" over and over again. We get it. Hulas doesn't want to merge lists. It would be a pain for Hulas to merge lists. It would cost Hulas some money to merge lists. List merging is not something Hulas wants to do. If it were Hulas' preference, the lists would not be merged. If there were a list of things Hulas wouldn't want to do, merging lists would be on that list.

Shall we make a list of reasons why Hulas doesn't want to merge lists?

Here's a bunch of other things Hulas does not want.

1) To pay his pilots over minimum wage.
2) To give us a commuter clause.
3) To give us better health insurance.
4) To pay us more per diem.
5) To have to keep 250 or point 65.
6) To live in fear of 250 or point 65.

So I guess by your line of thinking, we shouldn't fight for anything Hulas doesn't want? I'll do you one better, I think we should promote what Hulas wants! Lets all send back whatever money he paid us over minimum wage. Lets all call up scheduling and ask if there might be anything we can do for them. Volunteer pay? No, Tracy, don't worry about it!

Rolling over sounds like a fantastic idea! Who's in!250 or point 65. I think most people agree that TSH management has the final say on whether or not the lists get merged. The discussions about their motivation in this area comes as a result of your constant on-line fantasizing about merging the lists. If you don't want to read speculation about motivations related to list merging, you might want to quit your on-line fantasizing about that very topic.

250 or point 65
04-19-2009, 09:28 PM
What is the leverage you have on Hulas? A strike?

That makes about as much sense as the comments that GoJet pilots will support a merge so that you will quit being mad at them.

250 or point 65, I think you have an overinflated opinion about how intimidating you are. I can see how a strike would be a delicious fantasy for someone in your position but I really don't think anybody is basing any decisions on trying to avoid something that is very unlikely.

I have an image of 250 or point 65 as a bully on the playground that nobody is afraid of. He can't understand why everyone laughs when he demands they give him their milk money.

OK, lemme slow it down. This will be step by step for you.

1) Hulas is in business to make money.
2) TSA makes him money by flying regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) TSA uses planes that require 2 pilots.

Now lets reverse that:

1) TSA pilots are on strike, so there are no pilots.
2) TSA is unable to fly regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) Hulas does not make money.

Now this is where it gets a little bit tricky so hold on. TSA pilots provide labor to make Hulas money. If we remove that labor, Hulas makes less money. Our ability to cause Hulas to make less money = leverage.

On your other "points":

I'm confused about what the GoJet pilot group has to do with any of this. They have absolutely no say in what happens at the negotiating table between TSA and ALPA. ALPA, TSH, Hulas, or I do not care what G7 pilots have to say about what we negotiate for in our contract.

I am not trying to be intimidating. I'm just stating fact that we have something Hulas wants, and he has something that we want. Mgmt does whatever they can to worsen labor contracts, so why should we not do what we can to better labor contracts? The strike is not the goal. A fair contract with proper job protection is the goal. The strike is a tool used to provide leverage for a better contract.

And lets finally get the record straight. I am not a bully. I do not try to be a bully. I don't call anyone scabs. I believe that flying for GoJet is a bad choice. I don't get on here to flame. I state facts. I state my opinions that are based on reason. Look at my posts in this thread. I back up every opinion with a reason based on facts. Maybe things will play out like I think they will, and maybe they won't. Please don't log on here just to personally attack me. You can laugh at me all you want.

250 or point 65
04-19-2009, 09:32 PM
250 or point 65. I think most people agree that TSH management has the final say on whether or not the lists get merged. The discussions about their motivation in this area comes as a result of your constant on-line fantasizing about merging the lists. If you don't want to read speculation about motivations related to list merging, you might want to quit your on-line fantasizing about that very topic.

I've stated many times that there are plenty of ways to secure job protection. Merging the lists is just one of them.

If the lists were to be merged, it would be from the pressure put on mgmt in negotiations through a strike or threatened strike. Its already been discussed that there is a way to force a list merge without any imput from G7 pilots.

I don't care if the lists are merged or not. Its not my fantasy to fly with a GoJet capt in my right seat. That would be a terribly awful 4 day. Please do not call my argument fantasy. I think I have put forth a rather reasonable opinion.

CaptainCarl
04-19-2009, 09:54 PM
OK, lemme slow it down. This will be step by step for you.

1) Hulas is in business to make money.
2) TSA makes him money by flying regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) TSA uses planes that require 2 pilots.

Now lets reverse that:

1) TSA pilots are on strike, so there are no pilots.
2) TSA is unable to fly regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) Hulas does not make money.

Now this is where it gets a little bit tricky so hold on. TSA pilots provide labor to make Hulas money. If we remove that labor, Hulas makes less money. Our ability to cause Hulas to make less money = leverage.

On your other "points":

I'm confused about what the GoJet pilot group has to do with any of this. They have absolutely no say in what happens at the negotiating table between TSA and ALPA. ALPA, TSH, Hulas, or I do not care what G7 pilots have to say about what we negotiate for in our contract.

I am not trying to be intimidating. I'm just stating fact that we have something Hulas wants, and he has something that we want. Mgmt does whatever they can to worsen labor contracts, so why should we not do what we can to better labor contracts? The strike is not the goal. A fair contract with proper job protection is the goal. The strike is a tool used to provide leverage for a better contract.

And lets finally get the record straight. I am not a bully. I do not try to be a bully. I don't call anyone scabs. I believe that flying for GoJet is a bad choice. I don't get on here to flame. I state facts. I state my opinions that are based on reason. Look at my posts in this thread. I back up every opinion with a reason based on facts. Maybe things will play out like I think they will, and maybe they won't. Please don't log on here just to personally attack me. You can laugh at me all you want.

Well said sir, well said.

This thread is not meant for personal attacks, laserman, so try your very hardest to keep it civil. Takk.

CaptainCarl
04-19-2009, 09:57 PM
Carl, get your tall butt off the bottle and go to bed :)

:D Wilco...

laserman2431
04-19-2009, 10:16 PM
OK, lemme slow it down. This will be step by step for you.

1) Hulas is in business to make money.
2) TSA makes him money by flying regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) TSA uses planes that require 2 pilots.

Now lets reverse that:

1) TSA pilots are on strike, so there are no pilots.
2) TSA is unable to fly regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) Hulas does not make money.

Now this is where it gets a little bit tricky so hold on. TSA pilots provide labor to make Hulas money. If we remove that labor, Hulas makes less money. Our ability to cause Hulas to make less money = leverage.

On your other "points":

I'm confused about what the GoJet pilot group has to do with any of this. They have absolutely no say in what happens at the negotiating table between TSA and ALPA. ALPA, TSH, Hulas, or I do not care what G7 pilots have to say about what we negotiate for in our contract.

I am not trying to be intimidating. I'm just stating fact that we have something Hulas wants, and he has something that we want. Mgmt does whatever they can to worsen labor contracts, so why should we not do what we can to better labor contracts? The strike is not the goal. A fair contract with proper job protection is the goal. The strike is a tool used to provide leverage for a better contract.

And lets finally get the record straight. I am not a bully. I do not try to be a bully. I don't call anyone scabs. I believe that flying for GoJet is a bad choice. I don't get on here to flame. I state facts. I state my opinions that are based on reason. Look at my posts in this thread. I back up every opinion with a reason based on facts. Maybe things will play out like I think they will, and maybe they won't. Please don't log on here just to personally attack me. You can laugh at me all you want.
Of course you could go on strike. Many things might happen. I'm just saying do you see any evidence that anyone is taking that as a serious threat? I've said before that if you walk the square circle, I'll walk with you.

I'm not laughing at you or attacking you. Just trying to provide a reality check.

But go ahead and keep trying to work it out for yourself on an internet forum. Don't let me rain on your parade.

One day, the economy will turn around. When it does, TSA will be in a position to grow again if it is still around. I have a theory there are a significant number of pilots at TSA who are realistic enough to want to be around when that happens.

Consider this situation from two different perspectives:
1) A 24 year captain who is at the top of the seniority list
2) A 1 year FO who is furloughed anyway.

Which candidate is more likely to want to "burn it down?" Which candidate is more likely to have an influence on the final decision? Which one are you closer to?

TBucket
04-19-2009, 11:20 PM
Consider this situation from two different perspectives:
1) A 24 year captain who is at the top of the seniority list
2) A 1 year FO who is furloughed anyway.

Which candidate is more likely to want to "burn it down?" Which candidate is more likely to have an influence on the final decision? Which one are you closer to?

Just a small point. #1 may be a 24 year captain, but without some job protection in the contract, he's out on the street just like that 1 year FO... So yeah, if threatening to burn it down might stave off that outcome, I'll bet he'd be willing to do it...

laserman2431
04-20-2009, 02:34 AM
Just a small point. #1 may be a 24 year captain, but without some job protection in the contract, he's out on the street just like that 1 year FO... So yeah, if threatening to burn it down might stave off that outcome, I'll bet he'd be willing to do it...Maybe but not necessarily. Unless you have a crystal ball.

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 06:22 AM
Sorry bud, but this pilot group is looking at a 90% plus strike vote when it happens. From alpa research and talking with many senior captains, the burn it down attitude is very uniform across the pilot group. I would not be surprised by a 100% strike vote...its happened before at TSA!

This is not vengeful, but rather REALISTIC due to how contract negotiations work. Thank you so much for the "reality check" but I'm a rational person without your help.

laserman2431
04-20-2009, 06:42 AM
Sorry bud, but this pilot group is looking at a 90% plus strike vote when it happens. From alpa research and talking with many senior captains, the burn it down attitude is very uniform across the pilot group. I would not be surprised by a 100% strike vote...its happened before at TSA!

This is not vengeful, but rather REALISTIC due to how contract negotiations work. Thank you so much for the "reality check" but I'm a rational person without your help.
No problem. Glad to help.

Now where
04-20-2009, 08:15 AM
The bottom line is. Hulas likes GOJet, he likes their pilot group, they go to work get it done and don't complain. On the other hand TSA pilot group has been a pain in his ass for last couple of years. (Oh we want more pay, we want and want want stuff). if you merge the lists, there is a chance that the newly created pilot group will demand more pay better contract and stuff. Why take that chance. He much rather take guys from the street that agree to work for slightly less money.


You sir, are incredibly misinformed. (better mods!?)I am glad you are now in the pool at compass and won't be coming to Gojet. Your post do nothing but cause trouble. You just don't get it. The TSA pilots are fighting for THEIR JOBS. Right now, there are NO OTHER ONES out there. (which is why I'm a gojet) They will do whatever they can to secure their future. If there is a sen list merger, it would be a good thing for all involved. I, for one, am for it as a Gojet pilot.

Hulas doen't like Gojet or thier pilots. He couldn't care less. He's a businessman who will do whatever it takes to assure his pockets stay lined at the expense of his employees. PERIOD. If you think that GJ pilots (now mostly furloughed ATA, UA, MIDEX, ABX, TSA ect guys) are not going to fight for a good contract when the time comes, you have your head buried in the sand and are completely out of touch with reality. The TSA guys are not so much a pain in the ass as a group just tired of getting kicked in the face....like most of US PROFESSIONAL PILOTS.

I can't believe I'm actually defending those that throw stones at me while they don't even know me but what's right is right. The sentiment of the first poster on this thread is RIGHT ON. Unity will get us further then division.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, I will NOT FLY STRUCK WORK. Nor will MOST of the pilots here.

bryris
04-20-2009, 08:48 AM
You sir, are incredibly misinformed. (better mods!?)I am glad you are now in the pool at compass and won't be coming to Gojet. Your post do nothing but cause trouble. You just don't get it. The TSA pilots are fighting for THEIR JOBS. Right now, there are NO OTHER ONES out there. (which is why I'm a gojet) They will do whatever they can to secure their future. If there is a sen list merger, it would be a good thing for all involved. I, for one, am for it as a Gojet pilot.

Hulas doen't like Gojet or thier pilots. He couldn't care less. He's a businessman who will do whatever it takes to assure his pockets stay lined at the expense of his employees. PERIOD. If you think that GJ pilots (now mostly furloughed ATA, UA, MIDEX, ABX, TSA ect guys) are not going to fight for a good contract when the time comes, you have your head buried in the sand and are completely out of touch with reality. The TSA guys are not so much a pain in the ass as a group just tired of getting kicked in the face....like most of US PROFESSIONAL PILOTS.

I can't believe I'm actually defending those that throw stones at me while they don't even know me but what's right is right. The sentiment of the first poster on this thread is RIGHT ON. Unity will get us further then division.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, I will NOT FLY STRUCK WORK. Nor will MOST of the pilots here.

You are so righteous!!

The fact that you are even in that job is at the EXPENSE of the multitude of furloughed pilots from TSA - to whom those jobs should rightly belong absent Hulas' shenanigans. If inequities and injustices didn't exist, you'd be the one fighting for your job. Consider yourself lucky.

I try to not get wrapped up in the game, but the fact stands that I wouldn't be unemployed right now if Gojet hadn't happened. In that case, I could argue YOU are flying in MY seat.

This industry sucks...PERIOD.

Edit: I am not attacking you personally. I'm just sayin.

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 09:04 AM
You are so righteous!!

The fact that you are even in that job is at the EXPENSE of the multitude of furloughed pilots from TSA - to whom those jobs should rightly belong absent Hulas' shenanigans. If inequities and injustices didn't exist, you'd be the one fighting for your job. Consider yourself lucky.

I try to not get wrapped up in the game, but the fact stands that I wouldn't be unemployed right now if Gojet hadn't happened. In that case, I could argue YOU are flying in MY seat.

This industry sucks...PERIOD.

Nonetheless, bryis, GoJet did happen. And there is nothing we can do to change the past. The only way we can help ourselves is to work together.

bryris
04-20-2009, 09:18 AM
Nonetheless, bryis, GoJet did happen. And there is nothing we can do to change the past. The only way we can help ourselves is to work together.

Agreed. ;)

Hey, C, are you going to be in town for Sun n Fun this week? I'll be there Friday.

Now where
04-20-2009, 09:24 AM
I could argue YOU are flying in MY seat.

This industry sucks...PERIOD.

Edit: I am not attacking you personally. I'm just sayin.

And, since I'm furloughed from UA, I could argue that it's really MY seat...but arguing amongst the ranks of pilots will only let management divide and conquer and even lower the bar on this once great profession. I get what you are saying and feel no personal attack. I wish you guys the best. I know what it's like. This is my last try. I'm getting too old to keep starting over.

Now where
04-20-2009, 09:25 AM
Nonetheless, bryis, GoJet did happen. And there is nothing we can do to change the past. The only way we can help ourselves is to work together.

Agreed. Now, how do we get the rest of the folks to play nice and work together?

bryris
04-20-2009, 09:34 AM
And, since I'm furloughed from UA, I could argue that it's really MY seat...but arguing amongst the ranks of pilots will only let management divide and conquer and even lower the bar on this once great profession. I get what you are saying and feel no personal attack. I wish you guys the best. I know what it's like. This is my last try. I'm getting too old to keep starting over.

If you are furloughed UA, I respectfully bite my tongue.

Now where
04-20-2009, 09:41 AM
No problem....UA gave it all away anyway! I hope you find a GOOD flying job soon!

tank6102
04-20-2009, 10:20 AM
so out of curiosity, just how could there be a merged list without input from the Gojet pilot group?

looking at the situation, the only way i see a merged happening is if the Gojet pilot group votes to change to ALPA or votes to merge the lists with two separate unions, or they are all fired and then rehired under the transstates name....

not sure if these are the only ways, so please speak up if you know any others.

if i'm right and these are the only ways, i can honestly say i don't see the possibility of a merger.

X Rated
04-20-2009, 10:20 AM
OK, lemme slow it down. This will be step by step for you.

1) Hulas is in business to make money.
2) TSA makes him money by flying regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) TSA uses planes that require 2 pilots.

Now lets reverse that:

1) TSA pilots are on strike, so there are no pilots.
2) TSA is unable to fly regional jets for legacy carriers.
3) Hulas does not make money.



4) Many regional aircraft are accessible right now--with fairly attractive lease terms.
5) Many pilots are available right now--with the need to put food on the table.

Hulas has you strike for 90 days. In the meantime, he's training replacements for the additional aircraft or aircraft type to be added to GoJet. Or Eagle steps up and fills the gap in STL that they've thought they had claim to anyway.

In an good economy this situation would be much different. Unfortunately, circumstances aren't ideal.

X

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 10:32 AM
Agreed. ;)

Hey, C, are you going to be in town for Sun n Fun this week? I'll be there Friday.

Negative Ghostrider. No money + in Texas + Sugar-Mama in Norway = No Sun'n'Fun. I would if I could.

Agreed. Now, how do we get the rest of the folks to play nice and work together?

I figured this thread would be a good way to get the ball rolling. After that we just need the support of GoJet pilots to see us through our contract negotiations and, if push comes to shove, the strike. And Trans Staters need to put their grudges aside and focus all their might on securing a fair contract which includes job protection for us all.

Trans States and GoJet pilots share a common enemy: Management. A victory for one is a victory for all.

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 10:37 AM
4) Many regional aircraft are accessible right now--with fairly attractive lease terms.
5) Many pilots are available right now--with the need to put food on the table.

Hulas has you strike for 90 days. In the meantime, he's training replacements for the additional aircraft or aircraft type to be added to GoJet. Or Eagle steps up and fills the gap in STL that they've thought they had claim to anyway.

In an good economy this situation would be much different. Unfortunately, circumstances aren't ideal.

X

1) Wow, if you really think there'd be that many scabs willing to walk through our line for our flying, then they are welcome to it. If there are that many guys who need to "feed their family" at the rate they will pay scabs, I'll probably go back to school and leave aviation forever.

2) It has been mentioned before that Hulas may need TSA to stick around to secure funding for those additional assets.

3) The Trans World Express flying that we "stole" from Eagle is gone next month anyway. That doesn't effect us.

so out of curiosity, just how could there be a merged list without input from the Gojet pilot group?


Remember, merging the lists is not the main goal. Job protection is. Merging the lists is just one way provide us the job protection we want. There is another way to force the lists to be merged the lists. Our contract. G7 pilots have no say what goes into our contract. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that the way the Easties got a DOH seniority list? They negotiated it into the next contract to circumvent the arbitrator's ruling?

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 10:40 AM
Hulas has you strike for 90 days. In the meantime, he's training replacements for the additional aircraft or aircraft type to be added to GoJet. Or Eagle steps up and fills the gap in STL that they've thought they had claim to anyway.

From what I understand, Hulas needs Trans States as collateral to lease the CRJ7s for GoJet. The banks know there is a possibility of a strike at Trans States and therefore will not grant Hulas the loans until a TA is signed on our side of the fence.

And I also was under the impression that Eagle is already stepping up to take the American flying out of STL. That's why we are giving them their airplanes back. And they may think they have a claim to it but the mediator at the time declared otherwise. No matter, that's another story in itself and is not relevant to this thread.

bryris
04-20-2009, 10:42 AM
Also, I think there is some misinformation on the using TSA for collateral idea. As we know, there is no value to TSA besides the remaining duration on its existing codeshare contracts. In the event of a foreclosure on a GoJet CRJ, what value would a finance company find in TSA?

Furthermore, Hulas is LEASING these airplanes right? I don't think it is his style to buy them. I don't know. With that assumption, though, the airplane itself is collateral. If the lease payments aren't made, they get their airplane back. There might be some damages awarded for breach of the lease terms, but it will be significantly less than the value of a new CRJ.

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 10:43 AM
Dirka der derr derrr!

you have no sentiment from me, when are you going to stop blamming GoJet and just admited that your MEC put you guys in this position. GoJet was going to be created regardless, and all you voted down was a single senority list. You already voted it down, now you want it back??? Dirka der derr derrrs!!!!

Seriously? There are about 10 different posts that explain the reason why we may want to merge lists. You could also find thousands of posts in the entire forum that explain that TSA pilots did not say no to a single list. This is not the place to re-hash your flamebait.

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 10:47 AM
Also, I think there is some misinformation on the using TSA for collateral idea. As we know, there is no value to TSA besides the remaining duration on its existing codeshare contracts. In the event of a foreclosure on a GoJet CRJ, what value would a finance company find in TSA?

A company's value is the sum of its future profit. It does not matter that it has no assets. Every plane that TSA flies, whether owned by Hulas, a leasing company, or Orville and Wilbur creates profit for the company. If it is the case that he'd be borrowing against TSA, he's borrowing against the future profits (secured by the contracts), not assets.

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 10:51 AM
Also, I think there is some misinformation on the using TSA for collateral idea. As we know, there is no value to TSA besides the remaining duration on its existing codeshare contracts. In the event of a foreclosure on a GoJet CRJ, what value would a finance company find in TSA?

Furthermore, Hulas is LEASING these airplanes right? I don't think it is his style to buy them. I don't know. With that assumption, though, the airplane itself is collateral. If the lease payments aren't made, they get their airplane back. There might be some damages awarded for breach of the lease terms, but it will be significantly less than the value of a new CRJ.

You are probably right. It was probably someone's personal opinion about "TSA as collateral" that I mistakingly took as a fact. But Trans States does still provide a stable income for Hulas which he might be using to lease GoJet's CRJ7s.

Purpleanga
04-20-2009, 10:52 AM
4) Many regional aircraft are accessible right now--with fairly attractive lease terms.
5) Many pilots are available right now--with the need to put food on the table.

Hulas has you strike for 90 days. In the meantime, he's training replacements for the additional aircraft or aircraft type to be added to GoJet. Or Eagle steps up and fills the gap in STL that they've thought they had claim to anyway.

In an good economy this situation would be much different. Unfortunately, circumstances aren't ideal.

X

Wow, just wow. You may have no problem with being a scab but most will not cross any line. Your career is more important than one stinking year of unemployment. A strike authorization did wonders for Mesaba didn't it? It's not all internet BS and wishful thinking. Why can't we all just be united, management does not care about you and they do not have favorites.

bryris
04-20-2009, 10:54 AM
A company's value is the sum of its future profit. It does not matter that it has no assets. Every plane that TSA flies, whether owned by Hulas, a leasing company, or Orville and Wilbur creates profit for the company. If it is the case that he'd be borrowing against TSA, he's borrowing against the future profits (secured by the contracts), not assets.

There might some validity to this, who knows? There are so many ways to structure a secured transaction.

But, I would be surprised if a finance company is willing to secure the potential inability for a company to make payments with the "future" income of another company owned by the same owner. Why not secure it with the "future" income of GoJet's contracts? If the airplane is purchased, it'd just be repossessed. If it is leased, it'd just be repossessed. If it crashes, insurance pays. Either way, the damages faced by the company wouldn't be too far reaching. Hulas could likely personally guarantee the loans/leases to the satisfaction of the financing company.

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 10:57 AM
Wow, just wow. You may have no problem with being a scab but most will not cross any line. Your career is more important than one stinking year of unemployment. A strike authorization did wonders for Mesaba didn't it? It's not all internet BS and wishful thinking. Why can't we all just be united, management does not care about you and they do not have favorites.

Easy Purpleanga, easy. I don't think X was trying to incite a riot. He was just saying that there are regional jets available for purchase/lease and, like it or not, there are and always will be pilots out there willing to fly a shiny jet for no other reason than they are completely oblivious to the current events taking place in the regional world.

I know you are passionate but please don't try to instigate a fight here. Just let him say what he's got to say and then make a well-thought out, rational comeback that doesn't involve calling him a scab. Remember, a scab is defined by someone who crosses a picket line. Nobody has done that yet...

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 11:01 AM
It will be hard for them to be completely oblivious to current events when they are walking through our picket line to get to work.

Purpleanga
04-20-2009, 11:06 AM
I wasn't calling him a scab directly. I said he may have no problem with being a scab but most will not cross a line. We're just talking here there hasn't been a strike. We all realize that going to GJ does not make you a scab that is why there are so many that are trying to go there. However if there is a strike on any airline, I would venture that 90% would think twice even in this economy.

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 11:08 AM
It will be hard for them to be completely oblivious to current events when they are walking through our picket line to get to work.

Well, I was talking about new-hires and greenhorns being completely oblivious. The guys who are already at G7 know exactly what the situation is and therefore have no excuse. However, hopefully with the number of UA, ATA, Midex, etc guys working there, they will know better and will spread the word.

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 11:10 AM
I wasn't calling him a scab directly. I said he may have no problem with being a scab but most will not cross a line. We're just talking here there hasn't been a strike. We all realize that going to GJ does not make you a scab that is why there are so many that are trying to go there. However if there is a strike on any airline, I would venture that 90% would think twice even in this economy.

My bad. And agreed.

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 11:20 AM
Well, I was talking about new-hires and greenhorns being completely oblivious. The guys who are already at G7 know exactly what the situation is and therefore have no excuse. However, hopefully with the number of UA, ATA, Midex, etc guys working there, they will know better and will spread the word.

Nobody will have ANY excuse. Unless they are going to bus them around the backside of the terminal, they'll have to know about us. However, I believe that this is a mute point. There is no way they can train up classes of pilots in less than 45 days. That's 45 days of no funds incoming. Plenty of time to hurt Hulas where it counts. There's no way he'd let a strike go on that long.

Now where
04-20-2009, 11:23 AM
However, hopefully with the number of UA, ATA, Midex, etc guys working there, they will know better and will spread the word.

And, they are. The Midex and ATA guys see how quickly a good thing can evaporate.

tank6102
04-20-2009, 12:16 PM
1)Remember, merging the lists is not the main goal. Job protection is. Merging the lists is just one way provide us the job protection we want. There is another way to force the lists to be merged the lists. Our contract. G7 pilots have no say what goes into our contract. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, isn't that the way the Easties got a DOH seniority list? They negotiated it into the next contract to circumvent the arbitrator's ruling?


still can't see how that would work. just like you say the Gojet pilots have no say into the transstates contract, it goes the other way around as well. its still is two separate pilot groups with two separate contracts. and after the ruling of Gojet and transstates being two seperate companies it makes it even harder to do what your saying.
basically at this point it would have to be a merger of companies into one. and at that point the groups could no longer have seperate unions.

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 01:03 PM
still can't see how that would work. just like you say the Gojet pilots have no say into the transstates contract, it goes the other way around as well. its still is two separate pilot groups with two separate contracts. and after the ruling of Gojet and transstates being two seperate companies it makes it even harder to do what your saying.
basically at this point it would have to be a merger of companies into one. and at that point the groups could no longer have seperate unions.

Ok... Here's what I'm thinking:

A merger between Trans States and GoJet with a straight DOH integration. All the senior pilots get to keep their jobs and make it to retirement. The most junior guys get to experience their first and, hopefully, last furlough until some more flying is secured. And those of us in the middle get to continue on with our careers.

(My mind works sporadically, so someone needs to take this information and put it in logical order.)

GoJet pilots vote ALPA in and kick Teamsters to the curb. ALPA then works its butt off to secure TransGoStatesJet an even better contract that is, at the very least, industry average. Trans States continues flying ERJs, looking into more flying and more airframes. GoJet continues flying the CRJs and expanding their UAX flying. I don't really know how the seat lock thing would work. I suspect it would be a seat lock for a year and then the option to move into the CRJs would open up to the most senior guys.

Help me out here guys. Ideas? Thoughts? Flamers: Put a lid on it.

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 01:25 PM
First, you guy are getting very caught up in a merging of the lists. It's not the only or maybe even the best option.

Second, the companies do not have to be merged to have 1 list. Look at Republic and MAG. Funny you should bring up the ruling that they are two companies. We negotiate our contract to say TSH must admit fault in the appeal to that ruling and SHAZAM! - 1 list.

Carl, I think you're putting the cart before the horse on the "how do we merge lists?" First, theres not nearly enough of our pilots on this website to come to an agreement. Second, there are people in our MEC and at ALPA national that have way more insight on how to do this best than either of us.

CaptainCarl
04-20-2009, 03:32 PM
First, you guy are getting very caught up in a merging of the lists. It's not the only or maybe even the best option.

Second, the companies do not have to be merged to have 1 list. Look at Republic and MAG. Funny you should bring up the ruling that they are two companies. We negotiate our contract to say TSH must admit fault in the appeal to that ruling and SHAZAM! - 1 list.

Carl, I think you're putting the cart before the horse on the "how do we merge lists?" First, theres not nearly enough of our pilots on this website to come to an agreement. Second, there are people in our MEC and at ALPA national that have way more insight on how to do this best than either of us.

Gotcha. I'm just thinking out loud. You are absolutely correct in saying that merging the lists is "not the only or maybe even the best option." It is one option which I see as a possibility and I was just trying to explore how it would work.

On a side note, the VARS message today was pretty good. I'm off to the bookstore later tonight.

tank6102
04-20-2009, 06:31 PM
really doubt the Gojet pilots would change unions....they have no reason to

Purpleanga
04-20-2009, 07:30 PM
really doubt the Gojet pilots would change unions....they have no reason to

LOL most of the pilots could probably care less about their union, that's why they're at gojet. Not to mention they've got the same contract as the current TSA except for a few dollars more for flying CRJ7s. I know for sure the former "airline" pilots that are only there to weather the storm, could care less about that local tire sales, trash haulers union they've got going there. It must be a joke to them. I'm sure the actual local teamsters would mind though since they're taking money from the rich airline pilots.:rolleyes: What the pilots will care about is seniority.

undflyboy06
04-20-2009, 08:21 PM
There is one very important attribute that I learned while at Trans States........ I'll believe it when I see it.

elcid79
04-20-2009, 08:49 PM
GoJet union said that there is no way this will happen. The union rep said that they will never agree.
GoJet doesn't want these TSA guys that will ***** about their contract and eventually start demanding more from them. Thats why they don't want to merge with TSA. It wont happen.

hate to bust on your union Xelectro, but take a look throughout history, and read some union bylaws, the "Unions" have absolutely no say in a merger. If the company wants it, it happens, if not it wont. What bob, tom, dick or harry, has to say about it is irrelivant.

elcid79
04-20-2009, 09:12 PM
4) Many regional aircraft are accessible right now--with fairly attractive lease terms.
5) Many pilots are available right now--with the need to put food on the table.

Hulas has you strike for 90 days. In the meantime, he's training replacements for the additional aircraft or aircraft type to be added to GoJet. Or Eagle steps up and fills the gap in STL that they've thought they had claim to anyway.

In an good economy this situation would be much different. Unfortunately, circumstances aren't ideal.

X

Not to insult you, but that eagle flying is LONG LONG LONG GONE.. Haha, That actually made me laugh, to have someone put input into someone elses business, when they are talking about something they know nothing of. ALPA won a grievance agains AMR about a year ago, getting all of there eagle jets back, the last TSA American Flight happens at the end of april. haha. Plus, Eagles ALPA deserved to win that, I hate it, I darn near lost my job because of it, but its in eagles contract, its black and white.

elcid79
04-20-2009, 09:21 PM
still can't see how that would work. just like you say the Gojet pilots have no say into the transstates contract, it goes the other way around as well. its still is two separate pilot groups with two separate contracts. and after the ruling of Gojet and transstates being two seperate companies it makes it even harder to do what your saying.
basically at this point it would have to be a merger of companies into one. and at that point the groups could no longer have seperate unions.

This has all happened before, look. TSH decides that they do not want to operate G7 and TSA any longer, they merge the airlines. A merger takes place, the pilots unions argue for a while over seniority what not, finally lists merge. Then the pilots vote for their union representation. Alpa would be a very very wise maneuver. There is a lot more to ALPA than its political pull, do some research. Its how its happened in the past...

Foxcow
04-20-2009, 09:30 PM
4) Many regional aircraft are accessible right now--with fairly attractive lease terms.
5) Many pilots are available right now--with the need to put food on the table.

Hulas has you strike for 90 days. In the meantime, he's training replacements for the additional aircraft or aircraft type to be added to GoJet. Or Eagle steps up and fills the gap in STL that they've thought they had claim to anyway.

In an good economy this situation would be much different. Unfortunately, circumstances aren't ideal.

X

What you have described is not even remotely realistic.



How many airlines can afford to cease operations for 90 days? Zero. Look what happened to the airlines after 9/11 when US Airspace was shut down for a week.

It is for this very reason that the system (RLA and other legislation and understandings or agreements) is set up the way that it is. Imagine an environment were labor and management were negotiating on a level playing field (no political favors, lobbiest, laws, etc, etc). Any task that requires and extremely specialized workforce would give labor overwhelming leverage by far. If you considered the airlines in this manner, pilots would be able to get whatever we wanted because of our amount of leverage.

An airline cannot afford to cease operations long enough to train in scabs in the event of a strike. At the very minimum, we are talking about 2.5 - 3 months before you have the first class of line qualified pilots through the system. Can a class of 30 scabs in 90 days replace 350 line pilots on strike?

250 or point 65
04-20-2009, 09:32 PM
i have got a great idea. how about we use the words "combine the list" so everyone can stop being confused between "merge the lists" and "merge the companies".

the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. hulas will not merge the companies because that closes the door to at-risk flying for AX when times get better. however, the lists can be combined.

Purpleanga
04-20-2009, 09:46 PM
i have got a great idea. how about we use the words "combine the list" so everyone can stop being confused between "merge the lists" and "merge the companies".

the two do not necessarily go hand in hand. hulas will not merge the companies because that closes the door to at-risk flying for AX when times get better. however, the lists can be combined.

Well the companies can be easily merged, the offices are all the same, they have the same managment and TSH employees that work both TSa/GJ. Just copy and paste TSH to every GJ and TSA logo. That's how they created Gojet didn't they???? So why would it be hard to combine the companies? Oh wait!!! I forgot about the WEBSITE Shut it down, and make one TSA/GJ website because apparently that makes it official in the eyes of the courts.:D

elcid79
04-20-2009, 09:56 PM
Well the companies can be easily merged, the offices are all the same, they have the same managment and TSH employees that work both TSa/GJ. Just copy and paste TSH to every GJ and TSA logo. That's how they created Gojet didn't they???? So why would it be hard to combine the companies? Oh wait!!! I forgot about the WEBSITE Shut it down, and make one TSA/GJ website because apparently that makes it official in the eyes of the courts.:D

Don't forget hat devices / wings!!!

P56C
04-22-2009, 04:03 PM
Anyone else noticed that Trans States has posted job opening for mechanics, ramp agents, crew schedulers and customer service agents on climbto350?

CaptKrunch
04-22-2009, 05:35 PM
Anyone else noticed that Trans States has posted job opening for mechanics, ramp agents, crew schedulers and customer service agents on climbto350?
Aren't those the same people hulas uses for GoJet?

P56C
04-22-2009, 05:56 PM
Aren't those the same people hulas uses for GoJet?

Well the ads say Trans States Airlines and not TS Holdings.

250 or point 65
04-22-2009, 07:04 PM
Well, they still have the AX contract for ground ops at STL

TSH doesn't do anything that would require those positions for United or USair. Maybe AA decided to up the Eagle flights out of there?

Jake Wheeler
04-23-2009, 05:28 AM
There is little benefit to a merger. The reason most companies merge is for the surviving company to gain full control over the other. Hulas has full control over both companies now.

There is a greater flexibility of operations for airlines to merger. Look at NWA and DAL. They eliminate over lap. Are able to shift assets around the system as needed or seasonally. It allows a more efficient operation. Greater efficiency means more profit.

Hulas could gain more by merging the airlines, but he would lose the ability to whipsaw them against each other.

bryris
04-23-2009, 06:37 AM
There is a greater flexibility of operations for airlines to merger. Look at NWA and DAL. They eliminate over lap. Are able to shift assets around the system as needed or seasonally. It allows a more efficient operation. Greater efficiency means more profit.

Hulas could gain more by merging the airlines, but he would lose the ability to whipsaw them against each other.

These carriers are in different markets, 50 seat and 70 seat. Therefore, there is no overlap as of now. I would imagine United schedules the flights/loads accordingly.

TBucket
04-23-2009, 09:14 AM
Hulas could gain more by merging the airlines, but he would lose the ability to whipsaw them against each other.

I think the value of the whipsaw, at least on the TSA side, is at pretty much nil at the moment... We're pretty much set on a strike if they don't give us what we want... I think the time of "Well, GJ will do it for $xx.xx" is past...

Purpleanga
04-23-2009, 11:11 AM
All this stuff is so depressing knowing that you work for a management that doesn't value you, the latest Vars didn't help. It's so obvious that management just doesn't care over at TSA and Gojet. They take one step forward and two steps back. I'm sure they realize that there is a strong unity though and that they are just delaying the inevitable by refusing to negotiate fairly since 2006. I think they know the whipsaw factor isn't going to last much longer.

Positive_Rate
04-23-2009, 11:57 AM
5 of the May 15 furloughs canceled...not sure about downgrades.

wmupilot69
04-23-2009, 12:34 PM
That is good news. Finally, maybe the end is in sight.

250 or point 65
04-23-2009, 02:22 PM
There are still two main reasons to have 2 airlines.

1) The whipsaw
2) AA Scope

Even if the lists are merged, I still see the need for two airlines. Hulas still has the ground contract out of STL for AX/AE. Although TSA may never get back the TWE flying, there's a good reason to keep open that relationship with AA. When things pick back up again, Hulas will be unable to pick up at-risk flying for AA if he only has one airline.

And YES, 5 fewer furloughs is a great thing!

Jinrai Butai
04-23-2009, 06:07 PM
These carriers are in different markets, 50 seat and 70 seat. Therefore, there is no overlap as of now. I would imagine United schedules the flights/loads accordingly.

Do they share any contracts? If so, I could see them overlapping on a seasonal or weekday/weekend basis.

flynavyj
04-23-2009, 06:13 PM
I can think of three people who've left since the beginning of April. As i said in my letter to RZ, i hope my spot will keep someone else not as fortunate in the pilot seat....and it sounds like it might have.

Positive_Rate
04-23-2009, 06:19 PM
FOs or CAs?

A MEC member today told me they're still gonna be 15 FOs short for summer flying...hopefully they'll be more calls.

Purpleanga
04-23-2009, 06:31 PM
Do they share any contracts? If so, I could see them overlapping on a seasonal or weekday/weekend basis.

GJ and TSA fly the same routes daily. Not all of them are the same but many especially out of STL and ORD.

elcid79
04-23-2009, 07:59 PM
There are still two main reasons to have 2 airlines.

1) The whipsaw
2) AA Scope

Even if the lists are merged, I still see the need for two airlines. Hulas still has the ground contract out of STL for AX/AE. Although TSA may never get back the TWE flying, there's a good reason to keep open that relationship with AA. When things pick back up again, Hulas will be unable to pick up at-risk flying for AA if he only has one airline.

And YES, 5 fewer furloughs is a great thing!

the 70 seaters would be grandfathered in just like the atr72's when we started flying the AA stuff back in the day... the fact that we got rid of them, and started flying 70 seat crjs' caused the problem with american scope.

250 or point 65
04-23-2009, 09:06 PM
the 70 seaters would be grandfathered in just like the atr72's when we started flying the AA stuff back in the day... the fact that we got rid of them, and started flying 70 seat crjs' caused the problem with american scope.

So whats the difference? They are the same 70 seat CRJ's. Why would they all of the sudden be grandfathered in if they were what caused the creation of GoJet in the first place?

TBucket
04-23-2009, 09:46 PM
5 of the May 15 furloughs canceled...not sure about downgrades.


Hey, every guy we can keep from ending up on the street is a good thing... Hopefully they cancel a few more...

Salukipilot4590
04-24-2009, 09:47 AM
Hey, every guy we can keep from ending up on the street is a good thing... Hopefully they cancel a few more...

Amen!

Hopefully they start :gasp: recalling soon...

Atreyu
04-24-2009, 09:50 AM
There were people who quit and got fired. I'm assuming these 5 are to cover the quitting and the fired FO's

P56C
04-24-2009, 10:46 AM
There were people who quit and got fired. I'm assuming these 5 are to cover the quitting and the fired FO's

Why would anyone quit Trans States? What you are saying sir, doesn't make any sense.:rolleyes:

pinkpanther
04-24-2009, 10:48 AM
Fired FOs, I'm not sure about that. Maybe a couple were kindly asked to come to the STC with their manuals and then they decided to resign.

RuttR
04-24-2009, 02:16 PM
Any truth from a Gojet pilot saying the company is asking for voluntary furloughs? Are they not getting the planes they ordered?

CaptainCarl
04-24-2009, 03:35 PM
There were people who quit and got fired. I'm assuming these 5 are to cover the quitting and the fired FO's

How did you, a GoJetter, stumble upon this information?

Atreyu
04-24-2009, 10:56 PM
How did you, a GoJetter, stumble upon this information?

Not a GoJetter. I'm actually an active committee member of your Union.

Thanks bro http://smiliesftw.com/x/dance_bandwagon.gif

CaptainCarl
04-25-2009, 04:46 PM
Not a GoJetter. I'm actually an active committee member of your Union.

Thanks bro http://smiliesftw.com/x/dance_bandwagon.gif

:o My bad man, my bad.