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KingAirPIC
05-09-2009, 11:51 AM
See they have lots of contract positions available. Even heard they have some planes not being flown because of a lack of pilots. I'm looking for feedback on the company's position and any pilot related information such as domiciles, schedules, pay.
Currently they are advertising 5 year contracts. Anybody know if this is negotiable?


myoface
05-09-2009, 12:06 PM
I have a couple buddies heading over right now to start training, you have to be rated in one of the AC they fly, most contracts are not negotiable as to the length, but it seems there is usually an opt out clause (for both sides). My understanding is you can be "based" wherever they fly, and they deadhead you to ICN to work every month.

KingAirPIC
05-09-2009, 12:24 PM
That's a good start. Thanks for the info Face. Anyone else?


KoruPilot
05-09-2009, 01:53 PM
Just received another email from Rishworth saying that they are hiring non type rated. However, you have to get your own rating once your accepted and you have to have flown a Boeing as big or bigger than a B757.

B757200ER
05-09-2009, 06:20 PM
KAL is no picnic; if they hire you, after 5-day interview, then you finish paying for your own rating (if necessary), you may still get sacked if they don't like you, at any time---ground school, sim, IOE, line check or even if you have an unstable approach (FOQA data tells all). Be very wary of this company, as it is not all rosy. Good interview, great treatment, tough medical, but they do discriminate.

And, they think flying was invented in Korea, and they're all aces. Must be something in the kimchee.

captjns
05-10-2009, 01:43 AM
Per Rishworth web site regarding non-type rated 777 applicants:

Current B757/B767/B744 Captains sought for direct entry command B777 positions. *Must be willing to fund own type rating if successful at a screening*

Experience: Currently Flying B757/B767/B744 with PIC hours on type. Total Airline Transport PIC 2000+ hours. Under 58 yrs of age

Qualifications: B757/B767 Captains willing to pay for their own B777 type rating if successful.


I hope that those considering this offer think twice… as this will further open the door for pay to play, not only at KAL for their 777 and possibly other equipment in their fleet… but other foreign carriers looking for expats.

captjns
05-10-2009, 02:07 AM
Good interview, great treatment, tough medical, but they do discriminate.

After I interviewed with KAL the last week of November in 2006 I was offered a position in. In fact… out of the 10 of us who interviewed, 9 were offered direct entry captain positions with the company. My current employer made me an offer I could not refuse. While it was a tough choice, I turned down the offer from KAL.

For me, day one was the simulator evaluation utilizing my company’s current QRH. Day two was the medical. I felt I was being examined for the Korean Space program. The debrief with the doctor was very friendly and straight forward. The funny thing is that the chap in our group who we thought was a fine physical specimen was turned down for medical reasons. Day 3… day at leisure to walk around Seoul. Day 4... interview with pilot board. The interview as I recalled lasted all of about 5 to 10 minutes, then back to the airport and on the jet back home later that afternoon.

I realize that times have changed, but never felt slighted or demeaned during the interview process from the time I checked in for my flight to Korea.

Without causing angst, I am curious as to your statement about discrimination.

Skyone
05-10-2009, 05:28 AM
Get through their training, especially the 777, and you still may get busted by their "FAA". As one friend of mine was asked by the examiner, "Are you stupid?" Oh he didn't make it through despite his 20,000 hours and being a line check airman and being current. I don't believe the other fleets are too bad, but the 777 is bad news. Lots of info on Prune.org. Their training basically as if you are a new 2nd LT./Ens. in the military. Lots of brow beating and in some cases yelling. So just think before you leap. If you have a stable job, think twice about jumping ship and heading over there with no guarantee of finishing training. There is a reason that these jobs have been advertised for the past three years.

Now on the other hand, those that have made it through seem to really like it. Good pay, good schedule, based anywhere they fly twice a week, confirmed biz seats to Seoul with upgrade. The physical is a bear. Friend of mine played football in high school some 30+ years ago and had broken his wrist. They picked up on it and required an ortho exam in the US to say it was ok. He made it through, 747, and is very happy. So it seems all of the above is fleet specific.

B757200ER
05-10-2009, 06:46 AM
I realize that times have changed, but never felt slighted or demeaned during the interview process from the time I checked in for my flight to Korea.

Without causing angst, I am curious as to your statement about discrimination.

I wasn't slighted or demeaned during the interview, it is the actual training I'm talking abnout. The Koreans think they invented flying, and they think Americans, Canadians and Europeans should learn from them. They don't like younger Captains (I'm 42), but prefer older retirees. And, as I said, if they don't like you for any reason in training, they'll bust you---and you're out. Not a good set-up, and while I was there 3 out of 4 777 CAs were let go, all of which were current, qual'ed and typed in a/c. It just isn't a good job, but pay and equipment are nice.

89Pistons
05-10-2009, 08:05 AM
I wasn't slighted or demeaned during the interview, it is the actual training I'm talking abnout. The Koreans think they invented flying, and they think Americans, Canadians and Europeans should learn from them. They don't like younger Captains (I'm 42), but prefer older retirees. And, as I said, if they don't like you for any reason in training, they'll bust you---and you're out. Not a good set-up, and while I was there 3 out of 4 777 CAs were let go, all of which were current, qual'ed and typed in a/c. It just isn't a good job, but pay and equipment are nice.

Are these problems contained in only one fleet? How about seat? Anyone have any similar info on the A330 fleet?

Lighteningspeed
05-10-2009, 08:11 AM
I wasn't slighted or demeaned during the interview, it is the actual training I'm talking abnout. The Koreans think they invented flying, and they think Americans, Canadians and Europeans should learn from them. They don't like younger Captains (I'm 42), but prefer older retirees. And, as I said, if they don't like you for any reason in training, they'll bust you---and you're out. Not a good set-up, and while I was there 3 out of 4 777 CAs were let go, all of which were current, qual'ed and typed in a/c. It just isn't a good job, but pay and equipment are nice.

Sounds to me like you are bitter because you got turned down by the KAL. I have several friends who work there and they all seem very happy and none of them said their instructors make them feel like Koreans "invented flying" as you call it. In fact many of their instructors are Americans. Their medicals are strict but that's the way it is over there and if you want the job just grin and bear it. If you are not fit, you shouldn't be flying anyway. As far as KAL preferring older CAs, I call that BS because majority of their pilot rank comes after a stint in the Korean Air Force and according to my friends over there, a vast majority of KAL CAs are in fact in their 40s and 50s.

I am seriously tempted to apply for KAL jobs because all my previous dealings with Korean people including the time I spent over there when I was in the military had been very pleasant and I do not see anyway I can fly wide body international flights here in the US with the shape US carriers are in today.

ysslah
05-10-2009, 09:05 AM
They (The koreans) are probably bitter.... or jealous... may be that's why they are acting that way. The KAL pilot union (which the ex-pats are neither can join nor are part of) and the company agreed to reduce the number of expats a number of years back. That never happened. Actually, the company increased the number of expat pilots claiming they cannot get enough supply of pilots within Korea. I get the impression from Korean KAL pilots that the company is treating the expats better than their Korean counterpart and increasing number of expat direct entry captains, thus limiting the opportunity for the Korea FOs to upgrade-all to weaken the union. In return, those people over there may think of you as....well...... you know what... and get mad at you so possibly a bad treatment.... take it for what it's worth

Lighteningspeed
05-10-2009, 09:48 AM
They (The koreans) are probably bitter.... or jealous... may be that's why they are acting that way. The KAL pilot union (which the ex-pats are neither can join nor are part of) and the company agreed to reduce the number of expats a number of years back. That never happened. Actually, the company increased the number of expat pilots claiming they cannot get enough supply of pilots within Korea. I get the impression from Korean KAL pilots that the company is treating the expats better than their Korean counterpart and increasing number of expat direct entry captains, thus limiting the opportunity for the Korea FOs to upgrade-all to weaken the union. In return, those people over there may think of you as....well...... you know what... and get mad at you so possibly a bad treatment.... take it for what it's worth


You are getting all this from what? From personal experience? I doubt that since you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Instead of spewing nonsense from your own personal prejudice, why not do some real research and talk to people who really fly there like I have. US pilots ARE treated well, probably little better than Korean pilots as you have said, and that is what I am hearing from all my friends who fly over there. Feedbacks I am getting differs night and day from yours and having been over there during my military days, I call your statement unsubstantiated BS. My friends and I have always been treated with respect when we were over there for joint military exercises.

ysslah
05-10-2009, 10:24 AM
I was talking about these individual 'horror' cases where expat interviewees are being yelled at for something they shouldn't get yelled at. Where did I come up with that? It was an 'educated guess'. Yes, I know a number of expats at KAL and also many the local pilots. If you can, go read up on KAL flight crew union free board. I did recognize the expats get treated well by the company. Will most Korean pilots? yes. Even if they are bitter and what not, most likely they will not show it, etc. Will some? may be. Lightning speed, just for your record, i've worked for a very brief period of time at KAL (not as pilot, but at a department related to flight ops, where I interacted with the flight crews as a part of the job.) FOR THE RECORD, I wasn't saying everyone at KAL is bitter at expat nor they will treat anyone like crap. I was just making an educated guess on why they were yelling at people etc. Instead of just saying 'korean people are jacka$$s and they think they invented flying'. oh... and most of ex pats wouldn't know about the company using them as a union busting tool. It's not that it matters to them... at least at KAL anyway

Skyone
05-10-2009, 10:55 AM
L'speed,
No one is making anything up. Take a look at some of the other web boards. It got so bad about a year ago, the State Department actually got involuntarily involved. That my friend was bad juju. I know of four highly qualified, 777 type rated with hours, early retirees from a big airline, former Line Check Airman, all with 15-20000 hours, former military pilots, no blemishes on their records that during their training they were treated like friggin' cadets. You ever been screamed at in a simulator? Ever been told you were "stupid" during training? Again, this seems to be fleet specific. And if and when you make it through, you are treated well, until your PPC, then it starts all over again. Can you say fraternity rush?

A number of my former colleagues are there now. And they do enjoy it, they like the contract and the money is good. But getting through their 777 program is purely insulting. One friend actually shut the sim down and walked out. He did make it through.

Oh and BTW, you say you shouldn't be flying if you are not fit. Nice one. A guy breaks is wrist 35 years ago and he is disqualified until he has an ortho exam in the states. I don't have a problem with them wanting all this stuff, it's their game ball, but for you say you shouldn't be flying if you are not fit....I have to laugh at that. Any cred you had just is diminished by such an inmature statement.

It's a great job once you are in the club. But do not give up a fair job for this with possibility for not making it through. Don't go out and buy yourself a rating thinking that will get you through.

And again, why have they been advertising through every agency in the world for the last, at least five years, for 777 pilots. Using any logic you might have, that, that alone will tell you something is amiss. My airline now has close to 80 777s (I think) and taking 15 more this year. WE ARE NOT looking for pilots. Wonder why KAL continues to search worldwide for pilots with their much smaller fleet?

Lighteningspeed
05-10-2009, 01:20 PM
L'speed,
No one is making anything up. Take a look at some of the other web boards. It got so bad about a year ago, the State Department actually got involuntarily involved. That my friend was bad juju. I know of four highly qualified, 777 type rated with hours, early retirees from a big airline, former Line Check Airman, all with 15-20000 hours, former military pilots, no blemishes on their records that during their training they were treated like friggin' cadets. You ever been screamed at in a simulator? Ever been told you were "stupid" during training? Again, this seems to be fleet specific. And if and when you make it through, you are treated well, until your PPC, then it starts all over again. Can you say fraternity rush?

A number of my former colleagues are there now. And they do enjoy it, they like the contract and the money is good. But getting through their 777 program is purely insulting. One friend actually shut the sim down and walked out. He did make it through.

Oh and BTW, you say you shouldn't be flying if you are not fit. Nice one. A guy breaks is wrist 35 years ago and he is disqualified until he has an ortho exam in the states. I don't have a problem with them wanting all this stuff, it's their game ball, but for you say you shouldn't be flying if you are not fit....I have to laugh at that. Any cred you had just is diminished by such an inmature statement.

It's a great job once you are in the club. But do not give up a fair job for this with possibility for not making it through. Don't go out and buy yourself a rating thinking that will get you through.

And again, why have they been advertising through every agency in the world for the last, at least five years, for 777 pilots. Using any logic you might have, that, that alone will tell you something is amiss. My airline now has close to 80 777s (I think) and taking 15 more this year. WE ARE NOT looking for pilots. Wonder why KAL continues to search worldwide for pilots with their much smaller fleet?


My comment on fitness did not refer to your comment on "broken wrist 35 years ago. Hell I wasn't even born. Ancient history but they have the right to make sure that prior injury will not impede that individual's performance. It would be the same if you or I were going through any military pilot screening or major airline company physical. I was referring to people who were complaining about how tough the physical is. Military physical is no picnic either and when in Rome do as the Romans do. I am not saying the company physical should be overly tough but all I am saying is if you want to fly for KAL you have to go through their screening process like everyone else. Korean pilots go through the same physical screening as US pilots. I stand by my statement that if you are not fit you shouldn't be flying. You should have the sense to ground yourself before you kill someone. This is the credo we lived by when we were in the military. Why should it be different in civilian flying? What is immature about that statement. No response necessary.

Must be your friends' isolated experience because I also have friends flying over there and they wouldn't be recommending me to KAL if they were all treated like cadets as you claim. I responded to reponses that were on the borderline of racial prejudice by stating that Koreans act like they invented flying etc. Sounded like bitter and prejudiced individuals who did not make the cut. Just because they had 20,000 hours and were LCA does not mean that they meet KAL stds. I've met some very experienced pilots with impeccable credentials who acted like jerks and arrogant. This was confirmed by my friends there who said those who got washed out were mostly ones who can't work as team members and anti-social types.

Most Korean pilots I have encountered when I was in the military were humble and certainly paid us US pilots due respect for coming from a country which invented modern flying. Many of them also acknowledged that we saved their country from the Communists back during the Korean War. They still have such vivid memories of a long forgotten war in which so many Americans died. Ask some teenagers here in the US today and see if they even know what you are talking about. Ask a Korean teenager there he'll know more than you.

Making blunt racially motivated statements like some here made is what gives us the ugly American image overseas. I take special offense to bad mouthing Koreans who were so nice to my buddies and I when we were over there. They all made us feel pretty good about ourselves being Americans.

Only negative feedbacks I have received regarding foreign airline training were from guys who went to Emirates and Cathay Pacific. One friend who went to Cathay Pacific said expat Brits who are instructing over there did eveything they could to wash out American pilots. Similar story from Emirates. I have not received any negative feedbacks regarding KAL training from my friends over there. If you want to fly for them don't go with the attitude you are better than they are because that will be transparent to them and obviously they will try to put you in your place. Who can blame them.

ysslah
05-10-2009, 02:27 PM
so, how much time did you spend with local KAL guys, not the ROKAF pilots?

if anyone at KAL is bitter about the ex pats taking away their upgrade opportunities, it would be the Jeju flight school graduates, not the ex-ROKAF pilots. KAL's labor relations is a mess to say the least (the local pilot side). And I wasn't implying that the local pilots have a grudge against Americans or any nationalities for that matter; I was trying to say that some, if not a lot, of the local pilots are upset with the fact that the management has not kept their word to reduce the number of expats but rather increasing the number.

BTW, A lot of things that would be waive-able in the US isn't in Korea. I personally know two 744 captains there who had some problem with cardio system, which would have been not a major problem in the US or UK. CAA? or whatever equivalent of FAA they have over there refused, until one of them went through a long process of getting a waiver from UK CAA. The other one is working with the FAA right now. A lot of aviation related things (as far as the government is concerned) in Korea are backwards, even though it has gotten a lot better.

Lighteningspeed, surprisingly enough, you are the first person I have seen that defends KAL.

Lighteningspeed
05-10-2009, 03:12 PM
It's not about defending KAL. It's about people like you making generalized and stereotyped statements against Korean nationals that I am referring to. My close buddy is married to a Korean lady and he would not take kindly to your kind making generalized statements that Korean pilots are jealous and bitter towards Americans, which by the way is just not true and I don't want your bitterness to color the judgment of my fellow American pilots against KAL. I think KAL would be a good opportunity for those who is looking for it, including myself.

I'll give you that I have not mingled with KAL pilots but I have met a lot of Koreans and I have yet to have a bad experience. Not to mention Korean girls are definitely hot.

ysslah
05-10-2009, 04:35 PM
It's not about defending KAL. It's about people like you making generalized and stereotyped statements against Korean nationals that I am referring to. My close buddy is married to a Korean lady and he would not take kindly to your kind making generalized statements that Korean pilots are jealous and bitter towards Americans, which by the way is just not true and I don't want your bitterness to color the judgment of my fellow American pilots against KAL. I think KAL would be a good opportunity for those who is looking for it, including myself.

Again, i was not saying bitter towards AMERICANS, or individual expat pilots for that matter. Most are just bitter about the management's decision to keep and even increase the number of ex pats. Vast majority of them understand the individual pilots are there just to make money, not to screw them over individually. Some people however, I would not be surprised if they express their bitterness to the individual pilots.

I'll give you that I have not mingled with KAL pilots but I have met a lot of Koreans and I have yet to have a bad experience. Not to mention Korean girls are definitely hot.

I am a second gen. Korean. Again, I was giving a reason why SOME local pilots MAY treat ex pats inappropriately. I am not suggesting everyone there is going to treat americans (or should I say the ones with big nose and round eyes) like crap, regardless they have a feeling towards the ex pat issue or not.

Typhoonpilot
05-12-2009, 02:37 AM
Only negative feedbacks I have received regarding foreign airline training were from guys who went to Emirates and Cathay Pacific. One friend who went to Cathay Pacific said expat Brits who are instructing over there did eveything they could to wash out American pilots. Similar story from Emirates. I have not received any negative feedbacks regarding KAL training from my friends over there. If you want to fly for them don't go with the attitude you are better than they are because that will be transparent to them and obviously they will try to put you in your place. Who can blame them.



Okeee dokeee :rolleyes:

Let's pick this one apart, shall we?

Skyone one wrote a very good post. He is a very experienced individual and knows what he is talking about. I also like to think that I do, but I'm not as "experienced" as Skyone ;)

In regards to negative feedback from training at Cathay Pacific and Emirates, there is no denying that does occur. There are numerous reasons for it and it can vary significantly. Often times pilots new to expat flying or a new airline are not used to the culture of that airline. Even within the USA there are different cultures amongst the airlines. Some are very strict and some are very lax. This has a great affect on pilots when they move overseas. Both Cathay and Emirates operate training departments that expect a student to prepare him/herself to a much higher degree than most U.S. airlines. Many of the compaints I have seen come from guys who come over expecting to be taught everything without lifting the books themselves.

That's not to say that there aren't some douchbag instructors at either company, I'm certain there are. The great majority are good though and, in fact, are quite helpful to new joiners from the USA.

In regards to no negative feedback form your friends at KAL, that may be true, but I have received quite a lot from people who have joined in the last 2 years. One highly experienced expat pilot friend of mine who joined on the B777 told all his former co-workers not to try for KAL because the odds were they would fail training. Three out of four in his class failed. Another who left my present company stated that training is absolutely miserable.

KAL instructors and examiners don't play by normal rules. If they decide they don't like a guy the checkride result is already decided before it begins. That has been going on for over a decade that I know of. One person I know of who joined ten years ago was told to back his bags before he left on his checkride trip to Pusan and back. The result had already been decided.

KAL is certainly one of the best commuting contracts in the world, but it comes with it's problems. The biggest one on the B777 fleet is the rather large question of whether one will be successful in training and keep their job. Expat pilots are in the middle of a struggle between Korean pilots and management. That's not really an ideal situation to be in.



Typhoonpilot

Skyone
05-12-2009, 04:43 AM
Well, thank you TP, and of course I have the white hair to prove my "experience".

Ah, L'speed, er grasshopper, I hate to say it, but your posts seem a bit naive about the world of expat flying and the experience you may undergo if you make it to KAL. TP is so on the money when it comes to training and its expectations. It is a different world out there for all us "foreign legion" pilots.

What we are all trying to say, BUYER BEWARE. I will repeat, please do not go out and buy your rating to get in the door at KAL. It is very likely to end up as a 360degree revolving door. Much of their training is demeaning and insulting. I hope you know that this isn't the best training method to use with highly highly experienced pilots.

If you have done your homework, you should know that KAL has in the past, had one of the worst safety records of any international airline. And much of it had to do with the culture within flight operations. It took a retired pilot VP from Delta to straighten things out. And they were for a while. But the culture of intimidation continues. I can't imagine a copilot telling a national captain that he is doing something wrong. Read a chapter in the new best seller "Outliers" about culture and safety within the airline industry. It gives some wonderful examples of what was going on at KAL. It appears from all aspects that this culture is starting to creep its way back into things-starting with training. YOU WILL NOT BE EVALUATED ON PUBLISHED SOP, BUT RATHER WHAT THAT PARTICULAR L.I.P.'s TECHNIQUES ARE. And you better know them before hand. That, sir, is straight from a current 777 captain I just spoke with yesterday.

Wow, your assesment of fit......TP, make sure I ground myself for not being fit. Let's see, I need a knee replacement, arthritis starting to creep in, a bit too many deserts are starting to show, etc. etc. I think it's called aging. If one is sick or injured, absolutely sick out. But FIT? We better put the age limit down to about 35 then, 'cause that about when it all starts. And when was the last time I pulled more than 1.5 gs in an airliner. If I'm going up in the shuttle, pulling 9 gs in ACM, or making a case two recovery aboard the boat at night-oh hell yeah, I'm not fit.

Take all my banter above and throw it out of the window. I will ask the question again. KAL probably has one of the best, if not the best, expat contracts going. Commute anywhere they fly twice a week. Outstanding pay. Positive space biz class, upgradable to first for commuting, 13 days in a row off every month-man that's all very good. Then why after 5-8 years of advertising this contract with every hiring agency out there, are they still looking for pilots on all their fleets? Why is it they have not filled their quota of pilots? Certainly plenty of qualified pilots on the streets right now from forced early retirement to furloughs. The devil is the details.

I think we have beaten this bad boy to death. Have at it L'speed. And truely, good luck to you. I wish no ill will towards anyone looking for a job. But go in with both round eyes wide open, be prepared to be humiliated as a professional, and even with glowing training reports, you just might not make it. And if I were without a job right now, I would be begging at their door; bad knees and all.:rolleyes:

Zapata
05-12-2009, 08:04 AM
What we are all trying to say, BUYER BEWARE. I will repeat, please do not go out and buy your rating to get in the door at KAL. It is very likely to end up as a 360degree revolving door. Much of their training is demeaning and insulting. I hope you know that this isn't the best training method to use with highly highly experienced pilots.



Remember, if you did a 360, you're going in the same direction which would mean that you're still on the same training path. Did you mean 180?:D

Skyone
05-12-2009, 11:08 AM
Remember, if you did a 360, you're going in the same direction which would mean that you're still on the same training path. Did you mean 180?:D

Maybe a good catch. If you start at point A and go in a circle and you end up at the same spot, "outside" the door, I would say that's a 360. I wondered the same when I wrote that. But as you said, if you are going in and end up going out then it's a 180. But if a tree falls in the woods......way too much time on my hands. Is it the direction you're pointing or is it the spot you end up at? Your position may be the same -outside, trying to get in (360), or as you say walking in, then walking out (180)? Off to India tomorrow, so I should be really confused when I get back.

rotorhead1026
05-12-2009, 01:20 PM
It is very likely to end up as a 360degree revolving door

Actually, if the argument is restricted to the proverbial "revolving door", as inferred, the 180 vs. 360 argument is somewhat trivial. A 360 degree revolving door might be equivalent to being trapped in a training cycle. From what I've heard about Korean training, that sounds undesirable. A`180 degree door would mean being "spat out" and sent back home - also undesirable (if you really need the job).

Now in other areas (exiting thunderstorms, for example), confusing 360 with 180 might be painful.

Off to India, huh? Just got back in March, myself. :eek:

Zapata
05-12-2009, 01:56 PM
Maybe a good catch. If you start at point A and go in a circle and you end up at the same spot, "outside" the door, I would say that's a 360. I wondered the same when I wrote that. But as you said, if you are going in and end up going out then it's a 180. But if a tree falls in the woods......way too much time on my hands. Is it the direction you're pointing or is it the spot you end up at? Your position may be the same -outside, trying to get in (360), or as you say walking in, then walking out (180)? Off to India tomorrow, so I should be really confused when I get back.

well yes but, taking into account magnetic variation in Korea.....ahhhhh!:eek: :confused:

dutch747
05-12-2009, 09:23 PM
I'm glad the arguing in this thread is making more sense on both sides!:)

B757200ER
05-12-2009, 10:39 PM
Sounds to me like you are bitter because you got turned down by the KAL. I have several friends who work there and they all seem very happy and none of them said their instructors make them feel like Koreans "invented flying" as you call it.

Not bitter at all; it was a great experience. I'm telling you like it is: They let 3 777 CAs from DL and CO go while I was there, and after getting debriefed by them on how disorganized, discriminating and arrogant they were towards each of these very experienced senior pilots, I'm glad I didn't get hired and take a huge risk towards losing what I have. You won't know this until you go yourself, but they may have fixed the 777 program by then.

I heard 744/A330 programs were okay. Only 777 program was a problem.

AirbusA320
05-28-2009, 11:51 AM
Shouldn't one get hazardous duty pay on top of normal salary for flying over there?

taylorjets
05-28-2009, 08:48 PM
If it is commutable, where do you live while in Korea waiting to begin or end a trip?

worldliner777
06-08-2009, 03:47 PM
When one is a "grasshopper" it is wise to listen with silence and quick to silence one's own voice.

I would listen with respect when "TP" or "Skyone" shares their experience, or anyone else that has gone through what they have gone through.

Damm... I do missed the international flying!

TP... how is your family? Your Son must be pretty big by now?

SongMan
07-27-2009, 07:47 PM
Hi,

What are my chances of even getting to an interview?

1800tt and almost all single engine C172.
CFII with Multi Commercial
Korean/American and am U.S. Citizen.
No type rating

If so, where do I apply?
thanks!

myoface
07-27-2009, 08:17 PM
Pretty sure you have to have a type in an AC they fly.

kalyx522
07-27-2009, 08:52 PM
Hi,

What are my chances of even getting to an interview?

1800tt and almost all single engine C172.
CFII with Multi Commercial
Korean/American and am U.S. Citizen.
No type rating

If so, where do I apply?
thanks!

they're actually hiring guys like you right now. i know several CFIs/regional airline guys who interviewed within the past year (a few got hired). pay/contract/treatment is not going to be as good as it is for expats. (even though you are technically an expat because of your u.s. citizenship, you are not getting hired as an expat, but rather as a korean.)
???? ::: ???? (http://recruit.koreanair.co.kr/) if you can read Korean, the link for the online app is right there. the application is accepted all year round, but they hold interviews only twice a year, i think june and december?

SongMan
07-27-2009, 09:38 PM
they're actually hiring guys like you right now. i know several CFIs/regional airline guys who interviewed within the past year (a few got hired). pay/contract/treatment is not going to be as good as it is for expats. (even though you are technically an expat because of your u.s. citizenship, you are not getting hired as an expat, but rather as a korean.)
???? ::: ???? (http://recruit.koreanair.co.kr/) if you can read Korean, the link for the online app is right there. the application is accepted all year round, but they hold interviews only twice a year, i think june and december?

Thanks for the info!

bit confused however.
So technically I'm an expat(u.s citizen) but since I'm Korean decendent who can speak, read, understand korean, I'm going to be treated as Korean pilot? So in a way I'm going to get treated worse than ex-pat or Korean citizen...since I'm neither???

Also the site you have provided is great for reference but it seems like only information available on that site is for Korean native citizen and their application process. I don't have korean Social security number. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, thank you for the tips!

kalyx522
07-27-2009, 10:50 PM
Thanks for the info!

bit confused however.
So technically I'm an expat(u.s citizen) but since I'm Korean decendent who can speak, read, understand korean, I'm going to be treated as Korean pilot? So in a way I'm going to get treated worse than ex-pat or Korean citizen...since I'm neither???

Also the site you have provided is great for reference but it seems like only information available on that site is for Korean native citizen and their application process. I don't have korean Social security number. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Again, thank you for the tips!

yes, you are going to be treated as a Korean pilot because you are being hired as a Korean, not an expat. To be hired as an expat you need to be typed and experienced in a 747/777/etc. If you want the better pay/contract that expats get, you can obviously apply as an expat too... IF you meet those requirements, which right now you dont.
I had a Korean friend who was a Canadian national, he didnt have the number either so I think he contacted Koreanair about it. He ended up getting an interview, so if you're really interested, you should give it a shot and call/email them.

fiveninerzero
07-28-2009, 06:17 PM
Be careful as well, unless you have already hit your military obligations they will draft you if they find out that you have Korean descent.

89Pistons
07-28-2009, 06:27 PM
Can someone in the know comment on the 330FO program at KAL? Is it much better than some of the things I've heard about the 777? Are there many expats on line in the 330 program or are most of them just starting training? Is there a different culture at KAL from fleet to fleet? Thanks in advance.

SongMan
07-28-2009, 07:05 PM
Be careful as well, unless you have already hit your military obligations they will draft you if they find out that you have Korean descent.

Well that's the thing. I have leagally forfieted my Korean Citizenship so that I can not be drafted. I worked there for 1 year several years back with no problem after the forfiet. This is why it's confusing for me. I'm not Korean citizen, so how can I get a job as Korean?

Wouldn't they be sour with the fact that I gave up my Korean citizenship and not served in the korean service?

Puckhead
07-30-2009, 07:59 PM
can I assume a US citizen cant apply to the job if hes not at all Korean?

ysslah
07-30-2009, 08:38 PM
Well that's the thing. I have leagally forfieted my Korean Citizenship so that I can not be drafted. I worked there for 1 year several years back with no problem after the forfiet. This is why it's confusing for me. I'm not Korean citizen, so how can I get a job as Korean?

Wouldn't they be sour with the fact that I gave up my Korean citizenship and not served in the korean service?

That's not the only problem. You also have to sign a 10 year hitch.

kalyx522
07-31-2009, 12:20 PM
Well that's the thing. I have leagally forfieted my Korean Citizenship so that I can not be drafted. I worked there for 1 year several years back with no problem after the forfiet. This is why it's confusing for me. I'm not Korean citizen, so how can I get a job as Korean?

Wouldn't they be sour with the fact that I gave up my Korean citizenship and not served in the korean service?

ok, you are not being hired as a Korean like as in you're a Korean citizen because you're obviously not... you are being hired as a Korean in the aspect that you get same contract/pay as regular Korean pilots over there (as opposed to the expats.) To get very technical you are an expat but for Koreanair you are not being hired as an expat. It's a different set of qualifications/pay for regular Koreans and expats. Because you are of Korean ethinicity you get to apply under the lower minimums than a complete foreigner, but in return you won't get the higher pay/better contract that expats get. See the difference?

they never used to hire guys with this kind of criteria.. their pilots only came from Korean military, ab initio, or typed/experienced expats. now that the country has increased the military commitment to 15 years i heard that their pool has dried up somewhat and hence the opportunity for CFIs/regional pilots/etc who wouldnt normally fit into any of their applicant criteria. guys like you are unique because you can apply to koreanair this way, or later in life when you get more experienced you can also choose to apply to them as an expat.

also i dont think that they would care that you didnt serve since you are a US citizen. obviously it would be different if you were merely a green card holder in the U.S. but still was legally Korean citizen. I just heard today from the most recent round of interviews held this summer a few people got hired, including a Korean American (naturalized US citizen who had never served). I think most of the guys getting hired are Korean citizens who come over to the US to attend college/get their ratings and have been working as CFIs in the U.S. These guys HAVE served... but like I said there are US citizens getting hired as well.
the application website does require the Korean citizen number, but you can get around to it somehow I think you should contact the recruiting dept directly for that. at least one person i know (Korean born in Canada) was able to apply and later get an interview.

ysslah
07-31-2009, 07:32 PM
kalyx, are you a riddle guy? One of my colleague, who is also my personal friend just got the offer to start the class in Sept. It's crazy how it takes them almost 2 years to be cleared to be a line FO. At any rate, I also know a Korean Canadian dude who got an interview; he wasn't so lucky.

kalyx522
07-31-2009, 08:28 PM
kalyx, are you a riddle guy? One of my colleague, who is also my personal friend just got the offer to start the class in Sept. It's crazy how it takes them almost 2 years to be cleared to be a line FO. At any rate, I also know a Korean Canadian dude who got an interview; he wasn't so lucky.

yep, we are talking about the same guy then. i heard the same thing about their training, cant imagine going back to the schoolhouse for TWO years. :eek:

jimchi
08-01-2009, 04:48 AM
hey guys. i'm in the same position as songman. I'm a korean-american and i'm currently flying the 744 from the right seat, yet pic typed. i remember being told i had to apply, if i was interested, via one of the contractors, but that was awhile ago. if that's not the case anymore, does anyone know the Korean Air pay scale for the natives/non-expats???
thanks

ysslah
08-01-2009, 12:40 PM
jimchi, pm me with your email address, i'll send you the expat 744 info sheet. it might not be the lastest, but it's sure a good place to start. FWIW, if you are already flying right seat on the 400, you don't wanna go the 'local way'. You sign a 10 year hitch, and will be paying back the loan you had to take out for the 'jet transition' course you will be taking during indoc. That brings down the amount of money you take home each month significantly from what i've been hearing. You also will be starting from the narrow body, and it's not like they have a history of fast upgrade for non military pilots anyway.

kimchekid
10-26-2009, 10:43 PM
Some basic rules about any contract flying..... "make sure you join as a Captain."

KAL has no procedure in place to upgrade foreign F/Os off any fleet to the LHS. It has never happened in the past either. Even if a policy were to be introduced, you could expect the process to take something like 9-11 years. This is how long it generally takes a Korean to rise up from the 737, to the 777/747, and then come back to the 737 for his command.

The selection procedure is tough with a very high failure rate on the simulator (usually). KAL are very particular about procedures, and if you are offered a sim. evaluation listen very carefully to the check pilot who will tell you how he wants the profiles flown. Recently a large number of failures in the sim. were down to guys just not being able to fly a visual approach as they had been briefed.

The 777 is the fleet with the highest failure rate for foreign DEC's.

There is a long running dispute in place at the moment between the union, the company, and any past agreements on the number of foreign pilots that were to be "allowed" in the company. However the reality is, the company is choosing to continue it's expansion during this current global economic downturn, and it needs more pilots and not enough are coming from the Korean Air Force, or from the former Jeju Flying College (I forget what it's now called).

For those who are American citizens of Korean extraction. AFAIK they will not take you as a foreign pilot. I only know of one 737 F/O who is an American citizen of Korean descent and he is employed on local terms. If you are already typed on the 737 I don't know what your bond would be but can't imagine that they try to bond you for the $100,000 that they bond the ab initio guys. If you weren't already aware policy now is that all training is done on the 737, so all new local F/O's start on the 737, before moving on to their next type. And all command upgrades are now done on the 737. (In the past they also used the Airbus but not anymore).

Hope that there is some useful info' in there.

BELLCAPT
10-31-2009, 02:49 AM
Good news for overseas Korean pilots.
From The Korean Times today. 30 Oct 2009
The government plans to permit dual citizenship to Koreans who have acquired another nationality. But, don't know if you're able to *****foot from the military service.
If you're female; then you have the upper hand.

savagegrace86
11-26-2009, 11:33 AM
I know this thread has been inactive for a month, but I desperately need some guidance here. I am a 3rd generation Korean American, who can speak Korean but not well, as in I can barely converse in Korean. Would that automatically disqualify me for the KAL program? Also I am graduating this spring, with a PPL, CPL, MEL, IR in all, and a CFI, but no CFII or MEI, would getting these two increase my chances of getting accepted? Lastly, which contractor is the most reliable in getting myself connected to KAL? Rishworth?