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Foxcow
12-05-2009, 05:58 PM
I guess the time has finally come. After nearly 4 years (4 in February) of no progress negotiations, the union has asked to request a proffer of arbitration. I eagerly await the NMB's decision.

For all of the furloughed or not yet informed pilots, here is the company's response:


ALPA notified the company yesterday that they have made a request to the National
Mediation Board (NMB) to declare an impasse in negotiations and to “proffer arbitration”
which is the first step towards being released from federal mediation and begin a 30-day
“cooling off period.”
While such an action is not unusual in the process of negotiations, the company is
disappointed that the union leadership has decided to take this approach rather than
continuing to meet and work through our remaining issues. We firmly believe that ALPA’s
request is not the best way to bring our negotiations to a conclusion.
The request to the NMB of a proffer does not carry any special significance to the negotiating
process. Other airlines in the midst of negotiations have continued to make progress well
after such a proffer was demanded by the union. In the case of the Trans States
negotiations, we must wait to see how the NMB views such a request from ALPA before the
true significance of this latest move will truly be known. We have been asked to provide the
NMB with our view of ALPA’s request, which we will be doing in the coming weeks.
As we have said in the past, we continue to negotiate in good faith to achieve a contract that
provides the pilots with improvements to their current contract while protecting the
company’s ability to remain competitive in the marketplace. We hope that ALPA will continue
to work with the company to achieve these goals.
Should you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to contact Fred Oxxxx at
xxxxxxxxxxxx


Purpleanga
12-05-2009, 07:39 PM
Wow. It almost seems like management thinks we're idiots. That is a standard BS response, they're going to try to stall the negs till the very last possible moment. TSA is below industry average on almost every part of the contract. And the most crazy thing about it all is what exactly are they trying to be "competitive in the market" for? They can't even secure flying for which they were the most competitive. They are incompetent. No more lining the pockets of Hulas, industry standard contract or burn it down.

X Rated
12-05-2009, 08:16 PM
They can't even secure flying for which they were the most competitive. They are incompetent.

My understanding of it was the flying they were bidding for was going to be accomplished by leasing the aircraft needed from ExpressJet. If that's the case, do you really think that TSA was actually going to be able to operate the feed for less? A hundred bucks or so in aircraft operating costs per hour far outweighs the differences in pilot salaries from industry standard.

X


Purpleanga
12-05-2009, 08:36 PM
Actually they were, the problem was that the leases were for 7 years contract was for 5. I don't know anything about leases from Expressjet.

expectholding
12-05-2009, 08:53 PM
the point is a simple one. we have an industry trailing contract. a company with an industry leading pilot contract got the flying. therefore, mismanagement and/or inferior service is the reason we didn't get the flying. (in actuality, it sucks all the way around, because whoever got the flying was taking it from another pilot group, so jobs gained are jobs lost somewhere, but i digress)

this part ****es me off:
"the company is disappointed that the union leadership has decided to take this approach rather than continuing to meet and work through our remaining issues."

cmon, TSA. Its been a year and half since a SECTION was agreed to. The neg.committee has tried to meet with you without the mediator and you refuse. This is nothing more than an effort to make us look bad in the eyes of all the other employees.

Purpleanga
12-05-2009, 09:01 PM
"We firmly believe that ALPA’s request is not the best way to bring our negotiations to a conclusion."

Translation: It's the best way to bring negotiations to a conclusion.

"The request to the NMB of a proffer does not carry any special significance to the negotiating process"

Translation: It carriers special significance to the negotiating process.

JayHub
12-05-2009, 10:40 PM
So, now that the request is in, how long do we have to wait to hear something?

I know the company has to reply to the NMB in the next few weeks in regards to how they 'feel' about ALPA's request......ok, so how long after that? And does the way the company feels/replies have anything to do with the NMB growing a pair and giving us our request?

On a side note.... once hulas found out he could only lease the 145s for 7 years, does anyone think he tried to get a 5 year lease on some CR7s for Gojet instead?

Airsupport
12-06-2009, 05:26 AM
So, now that the request is in, how long do we have to wait to hear something?

We put in for a proffer a little over a year ago here at pinnacle. It will be 6 years in may.

Colnago
12-06-2009, 05:48 AM
Good luck to all of you TSA gentlemen (and ladies).

minimwage4
12-06-2009, 01:21 PM
We put in for a proffer a little over a year ago here at pinnacle. It will be 6 years in may.

Proffer is issued when there's no use in continuing. You guys were at least able to get something to vote on. TSA can't even agree on something as basic as industry average pay, which is still very low. In TSA's case management has absolutely no reason to negotiate and they want to keep the status que, so the only way they will ever agree on anything is by the threat of a strike.

HIREME
12-06-2009, 03:35 PM
We put in for a proffer a little over a year ago here at pinnacle. It will be 6 years in may.
5 years in may. Official negot's started May '05. we will be entering our 6th year in May

hnldave
12-10-2009, 09:39 AM
the playbook...

1. the company will try and divide the pilot group. possibly between ca and fo, stl/iad/ric domicile pilots, senior/junior. so stay united.

2. the company will send you propaganda on why they cannot afford your raises.

3. athough your mec represents you, the company will try and separate you from your mec. they will say how much they appreciate you and your hard work, but the actions of your mec may ruin your career.

4. the company will try to coax and persuade individual pilots. the flight managers will start to tell you why the company cannot afford what the pilot group is asking for. "life will be better for you if you *blank*"

5. the company will make others at the company hate you. they will portray you as greedy pilots to the flight attendants, gate agents and mechanics.

in summary, they will divide the group and have you question the vision of your mec. do not drink the kool aid and trust your mec. the company needs to have a deadline (the threat of a strike) to sign a contract or they will continue to drag their feet. stay strong brothers, from an ex-waterskier.

flyinaway411
12-10-2009, 10:59 AM
the playbook...

1. the company will try and divide the pilot group. possibly between ca and fo, stl/iad/ric domicile pilots, senior/junior. so stay united. ATTEMPTED IN BRIDGE AGREEMENT PROPOSAL, SOMEWHAT SUCCESSFUL

2. the company will send you propaganda on why they cannot afford your raises. ATTEMPTED IN LETTER

3. athough your mec represents you, the company will try and separate you from your mec. they will say how much they appreciate you and your hard work, but the actions of your mec may ruin your career. ATTEMPTED IN LETTER

4. the company will try to coax and persuade individual pilots. the flight managers will start to tell you why the company cannot afford what the pilot group is asking for. "life will be better for you if you *blank*" YES THEY WILL

5. the company will make others at the company hate you. they will portray you as greedy pilots to the flight attendants, gate agents and mechanics.
ATTEMPTED THIS WITH LATEST MEMO

in summary, they will divide the group and have you question the vision of your mec. do not drink the kool aid and trust your mec. the company needs to have a deadline (the threat of a strike) to sign a contract or they will continue to drag their feet. stay strong brothers, from an ex-waterskier.

i feel we have a much better MEC from previous negotiations....from what I heard anyway.

hslightnin
12-10-2009, 11:08 AM
nevermind my B

DryMotorBoatin
12-10-2009, 12:05 PM
Here is what I read/hear in regards to all TSA news...BLAH BLAH BLAH.

eaglefly
12-10-2009, 12:42 PM
The NMB is corrupt and owned by airline managements and their political cronies.

4-6 years in negotiations ?

If ALPA had any cajones and wasn't part of the problem instead of part of the solution, they'd do something about it. Unfortunately, they're more concerned with not spending money and therefore are passively allowing this to happen. I'll bet another 4-6 years goes by without change. It makes no difference if you are a major carrier or regional. Corporate and political corruption rules and the RLA is dead as a doornail.

Is everyone starting to get it now ?

Foxcow
12-10-2009, 01:10 PM
The NMB is corrupt and owned by airline managements and their political cronies.

4-6 years in negotiations ?

If ALPA had any cajones and wasn't part of the problem instead of part of the solution, they'd do something about it. Unfortunately, they're more concerned with not spending money and therefore are passively allowing this to happen. I'll bet another 4-6 years goes by without change. It makes no difference if you are a major carrier or regional. Corporate and political corruption rules and the RLA is dead as a doornail.

Is everyone starting to get it now ?

I think everyone gets it but why not fight the good fight. Labour in this country gets screwed 6 days to Sunday but we don't give up. Management would love nothing more for everyone to acquiesce.

CaptainCarl
12-10-2009, 01:11 PM
"life will be better for you if you *blank*"

What is "poop"? I'll take Life Lessons for 500, Mr. Trebek. :D

Copperhed51
12-10-2009, 02:45 PM
I still think it's time ALPA promoted an illegal job action/strike. If they want to throw the entire pilot group in jail, so be it. I'd love to see the media coverage of that one.

brottman
12-20-2009, 11:29 AM
What's the latest on the proffer of arbitration? Did the NMB accept it?

Foxcow
12-20-2009, 02:48 PM
There hasn't been any new info but the MEC and company met on the 9th of December to discuss the status of negotiations. However, the company requested that the contents of the meeting remain confidential.

s10an
12-20-2009, 06:30 PM
There hasn't been any new info but the MEC and company met on the 9th of December to discuss the status of negotiations. However, the company requested that the contents of the meeting remain confidential.

I know this would be speculation, but what could be the reason behind keeping it confidential?

Copperhed51
12-20-2009, 07:19 PM
I know this would be speculation, but what could be the reason behind keeping it confidential?


Mabye during the meeting, things got....sexual?

Herbie
12-20-2009, 07:35 PM
Who knows. I stand by all of my fellow pilots still on line at TSA. I have given up all hope of ever being called back, but I will always be here to support those that remain. Maybe if my luck changes, along with a lot of other peoples, I will be back in the cockpit before I hit 40. Here's to hoping.

As far as the request for proffer, hopefully something gets decided soon. It seems that mgmt only understand one thing, and that is an imminent strike. So, hopefully things will be figured out soon.

JRT123
12-20-2009, 07:43 PM
FRANK WAS RIGHT!:eek:

Foxcow
12-20-2009, 10:42 PM
I know this would be speculation, but what could be the reason behind keeping it confidential?

I don't know.

Clocks
12-21-2009, 04:12 AM
I know this would be speculation, but what could be the reason behind keeping it confidential?
Possibly some sexual encounters as previous mentioned.

But if the company requested the meeting stay confidential, I would suspect whatever the company was talking about could potentially reflect negatively on the company's bargaining position or somehow inflame the pilot group.

Maybe they came to the union with a "we have to avoid a strike, what's it going to take" and didn't want the pilot group to know. Or maybe they came to the union with "we're going to let you mo-fo's strike because we already have a sweet exit strategy, so here's our terms" and didn't want the pilot group to know.

/speculation

bryris
12-21-2009, 07:39 AM
I know this would be speculation, but what could be the reason behind keeping it confidential?

Holding cards close in, that is the company way.

Purpleanga
12-21-2009, 08:18 AM
They finally gave out the financial info? I was also surprised at the one sentence negotiation update by the MEC too.

PCL_128
12-21-2009, 09:00 PM
What's the latest on the proffer of arbitration? Did the NMB accept it?

You can probably expect a response in January. Hawaiian was first in line, but now that they have a TA, either you guys or Spirit will probably get a response in January. The NMB doesn't like to answer these requests before the holidays. If you go past September, you're pretty much waiting until January. There are only very limited windows when the NMB deals with proffers, because they don't like to negatively affect commerce.

Salukipilot4590
12-21-2009, 09:03 PM
Eagerly waiting to see what happens. Keep your heads up and fists tight guys!

Great Cornholio
12-22-2009, 05:58 PM
No idea if its true or not, but figured I'd come on here and ask since I heard about it today. Are people being suspended for not wearing a hat? Heard that in response to the profer the company has been suspending guys not wearing hats the past few days...however I don't have any confirmation so it might just be urban legend.

Foxcow
12-22-2009, 06:01 PM
A three day suspension is the standard punishment for everything these days. There was a captain that got a 30 day suspension for not wearing the company headset.

minimwage4
12-23-2009, 10:08 AM
More importantly why should the union care enough to keep the negotiations a secret from it's members? What could possibly matter enough to keep things secret. Unless the discussion was not favorable for the pilot group...

Foxcow
12-23-2009, 11:33 AM
It was the company that requested the info remain confidential.

minimwage4
12-23-2009, 11:49 AM
It was the company that requested the info remain confidential.

I read that. I'm sure the MEC know what they're doing and that there was nothing important to report on the meeting anyways, even though they could have just said that. But the key word from the company was requested. Where is the obligation to keep things secret, all that does is fan the flames.

DryMotorBoatin
12-23-2009, 01:00 PM
Anybody know the punishment for not wearing a "simple wristwatch"?

bernouli
12-24-2009, 06:56 AM
i dont get what's so difficult about following rules. if the book says wear a hat....wear a hat. how hard is that? don't diliberately break written rules and then curse the punishment afterwards and complain its too harsh.

....and to think some wonder why they are treated like children.

pinkpanther
12-24-2009, 07:57 AM
i dont get what's so difficult about following rules. if the book says wear a hat....wear a hat. how hard is that? don't diliberately break written rules and then curse the punishment afterwards and complain its too harsh.

....and to think some wonder why they are treated like children.

This is true and it is pretty basic common sense. Follow the written rules and you will be ok, however the major problem is the company's culture of selectively enforcing the rules they themselves write. A few years ago when I was at TSA I "misplaced" my hat and I went to the flight managers and told them I would be without hat until a new one arrived. I was simply told "don't waste your money, you don't need it", so I went the next two years and never heard a word about it. Now management is choosing to suspending pilots instead of maintaining their past policy of indifference that they relayed to myself and others.

DryMotorBoatin
12-24-2009, 10:25 AM
This is true and it is pretty basic common sense. Follow the written rules and you will be ok, however the major problem is the company's culture of selectively enforcing the rules they themselves write. A few years ago when I was at TSA I "misplaced" my hat and I went to the flight managers and told them I would be without hat until a new one arrived. I was simply told "don't waste your money, you don't need it", so I went the next two years and never heard a word about it. Now management is choosing to suspending pilots instead of maintaining their past policy of indifference that they relayed to myself and others.

So this is a metaphor to the British rule over the colonies?

bernouli
12-25-2009, 06:11 PM
This is true and it is pretty basic common sense. Follow the written rules and you will be ok, however the major problem is the company's culture of selectively enforcing the rules they themselves write. A few years ago when I was at TSA I "misplaced" my hat and I went to the flight managers and told them I would be without hat until a new one arrived. I was simply told "don't waste your money, you don't need it", so I went the next two years and never heard a word about it. Now management is choosing to suspending pilots instead of maintaining their past policy of indifference that they relayed to myself and others.

i'm betting there was a little less tension between labor and management before a strike authorization. that could be the reasoning behind management's change of heart when it comes to disciplining its employees.

TBucket
12-25-2009, 09:29 PM
i'm betting there was a little less tension between labor and management before a strike authorization. that could be the reasoning behind management's change of heart when it comes to disciplining its employees.


What amazes me is that the company somehow thinks this is a good idea. "Hey, let's treat them like crap EVEN MORE, and then maybe they'll give in and accept a sub-standard contract!" Like, if they show us just how malicious they can be, that we'll suddenly like them more and want to trust them? Riiiiiight....

Foxcow
12-26-2009, 05:18 AM
Has anyone gotten the most recent letter from the company? It is indeed the biggest load of horse poo spewed out of the director of flights and the presidents mouths in a long time.

Positive_Rate
12-26-2009, 08:06 AM
Is it being mailed out?

Positive_Rate
12-26-2009, 12:33 PM
Has anyone gotten the most recent letter from the company? It is indeed the biggest load of horse poo spewed out of the director of flights and the presidents mouths in a long time.

Actually, just got mine in the mail today. What a great Christmas present from TSA. I enjoyed reading it and I think that you hit the nail on the head with your description. Wow.

skippy
12-26-2009, 04:11 PM
Just post the damn thing!!

Foxcow
12-26-2009, 07:07 PM
Just post the damn thing!!



lol am I that transparent?


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/lol1.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/lol2.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/lol3.jpg

Foxcow
12-26-2009, 07:08 PM
Last two:


http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/lol4.jpg

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb252/Foxcow/lol5.jpg

expectholding
12-26-2009, 08:25 PM
disgusted!!!

TBucket
12-26-2009, 08:28 PM
Wow... That actually makes me physically ill...

elcid79
12-26-2009, 08:38 PM
M W said that we could call him to discuss this. I say we all do.

Great Cornholio
12-26-2009, 08:47 PM
i dont get what's so difficult about following rules. if the book says wear a hat....wear a hat. how hard is that? don't diliberately break written rules and then curse the punishment afterwards and complain its too harsh.

....and to think some wonder why they are treated like children.

I agree it is easy to follow written rules which is why I wear my hat. I had just heard that the company had starting suspending guys for not wearing hats, which is a bit harsh compared to their old "punishment" which was anything from ignoring it to just having a flight manager ask you about your hat. Like it was said earlier the big news here is the change from past practice. I still don't have any confirmation of this being real though...so for now I'm going to count it as urban legend until I find out otherwise.

Purpleanga
12-26-2009, 09:59 PM
Summary of the letter:

1. It has taken 4 years for negotiations because of ALPA.

2. The company has no obligation to negotiate anything on Gojet.

Half the letter was about Gojet so they clearly see that as the biggest issue. They see this whole deal as a quest for ALPA to get rid of Gojet once and for all by merging the lists. I also like how they conveniently leave out all the info about sperate senioirty lists and how it came to that in the first place. Also..... I never knew that ALPA was asking for us to become "the highest paid regional pilots ever" What a bunch of BS. I hope the NMB sees through the crap. It's going to get pretty bad because this letter was basically a big middle finger to us all, I don't see how there could be any progress if this is what the company is thinking.

Shrek
12-27-2009, 05:16 AM
Summary of the letter:

1. It has taken 4 years for negotiations because of ALPA.

2. The company has no obligation to negotiate anything on Gojet.

Half the letter was about Gojet so they clearly see that as the biggest issue. They see this whole deal as a quest for ALPA to get rid of Gojet once and for all by merging the lists. I also like how they conveniently leave out all the info about sperate senioirty lists and how it came to that in the first place. Also..... I never knew that ALPA was asking for us to become "the highest paid regional pilots ever" What a bunch of BS. I hope the NMB sees through the crap. It's going to get pretty bad because this letter was basically a big middle finger to us all, I don't see how there could be any progress if this is what the company is thinking.

Hulas and Co. have always done it this way - the last contract came down to the 11th hour literally. So just be patient - don't become a hostage - and let the antiquated federal process work until the cooling period is over whenever that is.

Atreyu
12-27-2009, 03:22 PM
All I have to say is this:

Express Jet pilots get paid more than Trans States Pilots on the E145.

Express Jet secured the Mesa flying, which is what for 2 years many people (including one of the negotiators on the TSA management side) told me what we were looking for to expand again.

All I want, and many TSA pilots want is job security. We don't want to be the top paid pilots, nor do we want to be treated better than top airlines (see other regionals that get crew meals while we try to get 30 minutes to run to a fast food chain).

We want what is right. I know management reads these threads, and we want to be treated fairly. I'm tired of being told that we're a "seperate carrier" then fly a GoJet flight from IAD-ORF which has never been flown by Trans States just to cover a GoJet flight.

Great Cornholio
12-27-2009, 06:06 PM
All I have to say is this:

Express Jet pilots get paid more than Trans States Pilots on the E145.

Express Jet secured the Mesa flying, which is what for 2 years many people (including one of the negotiators on the TSA management side) told me what we were looking for to expand again.

All I want, and many TSA pilots want is job security. We don't want to be the top paid pilots, nor do we want to be treated better than top airlines (see other regionals that get crew meals while we try to get 30 minutes to run to a fast food chain).

We want what is right. I know management reads these threads, and we want to be treated fairly. I'm tired of being told that we're a "seperate carrier" then fly a GoJet flight from IAD-ORF which has never been flown by Trans States just to cover a GoJet flight.


While I agree flying IAD-ORF to cover a Gojet flight is crap we did use to do both IAD-ORF for UAL and PIT-ORF for USAir which is why ORF is still hiding in our C70 pages of the ops specs. Although I'd say the last offical ORF flight for TSA was around 4 years ago now....

Anyways hopefully us covering Gojet segments will help us out in the long run.

mustache ride
12-27-2009, 09:19 PM
I like page 2, 2nd paragraph where they refer to us as "APLA."

Must look real good to the NMB, real class act, professional. No time to proofread or negotiate. Every letter they send to us only does more damage to their credibility. Does the NMB have a definition for 'pencil whipped' when it comes to negotiations?

minimwage4
12-28-2009, 09:06 AM
What's with the single carrier issue? Is that for merging the list or actually stopping Gojet from existing? From the letter it looked like that's what management thinks ALPA is trying to do. That's not even legally possible. What there needs to be is a single list.

TBucket
12-28-2009, 09:47 AM
What's with the single carrier issue? Is that for merging the list or actually stopping Gojet from existing? From the letter it looked like that's what management thinks ALPA is trying to do. That's not even legally possible. What there needs to be is a single list.


The idea is that the pilot group wants a single seniority list. Otherwise, we could get a great industry-leading contract and watch them farm (more) of our jobs out to Gojets. We'd just end up out of a job. A great contract is worthless without job security.

A single list would benefit the Gojet pilots as well. It would protect them from the whipsaw as much as it would us.

Purpleanga
12-28-2009, 11:55 AM
They could put whatever restrictions they want on a single list as long as it keeps people from being furloughed while management hires street pilots for the other operation. What exactly is unfair about that management? And no we don't want preferential hiring now or when you decide to pull the plug on TSA. :mad: This issue is never once mentioned in the letter while making it seem like we want to destroy Gojet.

Golden Child
12-28-2009, 12:52 PM
If you take a second to digest this you will see a huge problem. The letter obviously makes the argument that ALPA is being entirely unreasonable by making everything about GoJet and asking for insane salaries. Just about every line accuses ALPA of not even making serious attempts to resolve open issues. Then the company even goes so far as to say that negotiation problems "may yet prove unsolvable". Wait?!?

If you take the letter seriously, it is basically arguing that at no time has ALPA tried to help the negotiating process and is in the midst of a campaign of deception and instigation.... and the proposed solution.... give us more time to talk to ALPA. WHAT?!?!?!? So basically, ALPA is outrageous and can't be reasoned with, so give us more time to reason with them. Are you serious? So then what is the point of this letter? Does TSA adore this misery? The company is obviously just looking to milk some more time out of the process.

Purpleanga
12-28-2009, 01:00 PM
I agree. The whole letter is about lies and deception in an effort to milk more time, simply because they don't have to do anything even negotiate. At no point have I heard our union ask for us to become the highest paid regional pilots ever. It's all about industry norms and job security. They are basically saying the opposite of whatever our union has been telling us. So it's either the company or the union that is lying. Everyone can see through the BS, the question is will the NMB have the will to step in and end this because it's very obvious that it will go nowhere unless they put an ultimatum on management.

skippy
12-28-2009, 04:21 PM
1. Rick leach in no way wrote that letter
2. Thanks for posting it
3. Its not pau ratesthat cost the most money - $2 an hr
ore at gurantee is only about $1300 a year big freaking deal- its the sick time, more vacation, training days etc that cost 10 times much
4. Please domt listen to this bs- jusy keep playing the game and win in the end- that is the ultimate reward
5. Tbucket gets it- i mist know uou
6. Didnt all those tsa pilots get their jobs back that were harassing the gojet pilots- are they harboring a harsh work environment or what?... Exactly
7. D hayes wrote the letter- its his style- leqch hasnt a clue on the day to day operations to brong up the ord radio blocked transmissions- hilarious

8. Hang in there- if other regionals can secure a single cafrier letter so can hou the precedence has been set .... Many ti
es
9. The letter speaks volumes to the fact that tsah is scared- mark my word- the economy will be fi e- tsah missed there window for low hourly rates- aviation can only improve from its current point
10. Is leach still in the closet?

Copperhed51
12-28-2009, 04:57 PM
1. Rick leach in no way wrote that letter
2. Thanks for posting it
3. Its not pau ratesthat cost the most money - $2 an hr
ore at gurantee is only about $1300 a year big freaking deal- its the sick time, more vacation, training days etc that cost 10 times much
4. Please domt listen to this bs- jusy keep playing the game and win in the end- that is the ultimate reward
5. Tbucket gets it- i mist know uou
6. Didnt all those tsa pilots get their jobs back that were harassing the gojet pilots- are they harboring a harsh work environment or what?... Exactly
7. D hayes wrote the letter- its his style- leqch hasnt a clue on the day to day operations to brong up the ord radio blocked transmissions- hilarious

8. Hang in there- if other regionals can secure a single cafrier letter so can hou the precedence has been set .... Many ti
es
9. The letter speaks volumes to the fact that tsah is scared- mark my word- the economy will be fi e- tsah missed there window for low hourly rates- aviation can only improve from its current point
10. Is leach still in the closet?

You, sir, are either severely inebriated or typed that on a phone.

Time2Fly
12-28-2009, 06:32 PM
You, sir, are either severely inebriated or typed that on a phone.

I was thinking the same thing :D

skippy
12-28-2009, 08:15 PM
Damn i phone

DryMotorBoatin
12-28-2009, 10:23 PM
uh huh...iphone alright. ive flown with you and know better;)

Shrek
12-29-2009, 10:38 AM
uh huh...iphone alright. ive flown with you and know better;)

Good point........lol

Pinchanickled
12-29-2009, 11:47 AM
Hang in there TSA Pilots. Don't fall into the management trap that you have to "give up something in order to gain something."

Keep in mind these regional contracts that are expiring these days were all DESIGNED and CREATED back when regionals didn't fly regional jets. Securing a contract that accurately reflects what your company is today should be priority number 1.

10-15 years ago, regional airlines flew "puddle jumpers" mostly in a "region." Nowadays, regional airlines fly expensive jets carrying 50-90 passengers to international destinations adjacent to north america (canada, mexico, carribean, bahamas, central america).

Payrates in the 20-25/hour range derived from contracts that accurately reflected the regional industry 10-15 years ago. So if they offer a payraise to 25-35/hour range ask yourself this question: Is it really fair to fly a twin engine jet with 50-90 passengers onboard to foreign countries, going 550mph at 35,000 feet high? NO!!!

Just because "industry average" might be "better than your current contract" that doesn't mean it would necessarily be FAIR!!! It takes about 40,000 in most cities just to support a family with nothing extra to spare.

If you have any senior pilots on your negotiating team, keep a close eye on them. Especially if these senior pilots don't have a college degree, or have been rejected by every major airline. Those guys will ruthlessly swing the contract to benefit them and them alone. They realize that this is their only chance in life to taste a fraction of what it would be like to fly for a major. If they start giving up work rules and payrates that benefit the junior pilots to gain work rules and payrates for the senior pilots ------ LOOKOUT, time for a R-E-C-A-L-L !!!!

slamklikr2782
12-30-2009, 11:17 AM
after being out of TSA for five glorious years my blood pressure still goes through the roof everytime i "catch up" on events

Great Cornholio
12-31-2009, 03:12 PM
I don't really know the point of sending out this letter. All it did was make people mad at TSA and less mad at the union. This letter straight up told us that they think we are worth nothing!!! It says that we are asking for industry leading pay...even if in reality we are only asking for average..WHY DONT WE DESERVE industry leading pay??? I mean most of the time day in and day out we go above and beyond to keep this airline running. Deal with the cluster that is UAL ops in ORD and IAD, deal with a mx department that would rather buy stickers and pens instead of parts so we constantly have planes with multiple MELs, deal with schedulers that will try their best to ignore the CBA and push you to both the CBA and FAR limits (especially our reserve guys) multiple switches from nights to mornings are common..its legal..but is it really safe?? Anyways we are typically put in tight spots multiple times a day and usually dig the company out....I think we do deserve industry leading pay......end rant.

Now other reasons why we deserve industry leading pay and work rules.
1. The "industry" is completely different than it was when the TSA and most other CBAs were written.
2. Like it or not the Regionals are no longer stepping stones and may turn into "career" airlines for some...so the new CBA's need to reflect this.
3. Like it has been said time and time again....we are doing more and more mainline flying here at the regionals...now its time to man up and get paid/treated like mainline guys.

That is all. I need a beer to calm down now....happy new year to all.

PCL_128
12-31-2009, 09:04 PM
I wouldn't waste time getting upset about this letter. The letter is very common, and it's really nothing more than a formality. The NMB pays little attention to them. Their mediator (a pretty good one, BTW), has been sitting at the table for two years, and he reports back after every session, so the NMB knows exactly what is going on, and they don't need long letters to explain it to them. The important thing is that ALPA has made a formal request for a proffer. Both sides sent their form letters, and now the NMB will meet with both parties and make a decision. They might stall for a couple of months, because Spirit may come first, but I suspect they'll grant you your request.

1. Rick leach in no way wrote that letter

It reads as though it was written by Ford & Harrison.

Purpleanga
12-31-2009, 10:30 PM
It reads as though it was written by Ford & Harrison.


I doubt it. You'd expect a proffesional organization to know the difference between ALPA and APLA or were and we are. It's just embarassing.

PCL_128
01-01-2010, 05:44 AM
I doubt it. You'd expect a proffesional organization to know the difference between ALPA and APLA or were and we are. It's just embarassing.

I didn't say it was written by one of their good attorneys. :)

All of the talk of "permissive areas of bargaining" and such leads me to believe that it was either written by F & H or by the company's in-house labor relations counsel, if you they have one. It certainly wasn't written by the regular management swine.

Shrek
01-01-2010, 07:53 AM
I didn't say it was written by one of their good attorneys. :)

All of the talk of "permissive areas of bargaining" and such leads me to believe that it was either written by F & H or by the company's in-house labor relations counsel, if you they have one. It certainly wasn't written by the regular management swine.

I am sure it was written by the TSA attorney aka Fat Bastard .........;)

minimwage4
01-02-2010, 11:50 AM
I wouldn't waste time getting upset about this letter. The letter is very common, and it's really nothing more than a formality. The NMB pays little attention to them. Their mediator (a pretty good one, BTW), has been sitting at the table for two years, and he reports back after every session, so the NMB knows exactly what is going on, and they don't need long letters to explain it to them. The important thing is that ALPA has made a formal request for a proffer. Both sides sent their form letters, and now the NMB will meet with both parties and make a decision. They might stall for a couple of months, because Spirit may come first, but I suspect they'll grant you your request.



It reads as though it was written by Ford & Harrison.


I agree with you. Not only are they going to grant the request but the company as well will cooperate, at least before the strike deadline. There is nothing "outrageous" in the demands just industry norms and as far as the single list, they can merge them as fast as they separated them. The delays are nothing more than bottom feeder management tactics they like to have control, but they like the money more which they will lose if they actually allow a strike.

Time2Fly
01-10-2010, 08:47 PM
Anyone heard anything more on this...?

Purpleanga
01-13-2010, 08:16 PM
I heard there was a meeting last week. Should hear soon on the proffer, I think they're expecting the decision from the NMB this month.

Positive_Rate
01-14-2010, 07:49 AM
The company met with the NMB last week. So now the NMB has heard "both sides of the story" as it was...most likely they'll debate on it for a few weeks, and hopefully we'll hear something from them this month or at the latest by the end of February. Also look for a negotiations update VARS message hopefully this weekend.

Purpleanga
04-23-2010, 05:17 PM
I was just thinking, what can our management legally do if we're released for self help? Does management even have a reason to negotiate? They can't even find flying when it's placed on their lap. The most important items are still open. Can they cancel the whole negotiations and transfer the flying to Gojet or another entity indefinitely?

The way I see things going, realistically, this is going to be another Mesa/Freedom style outcome. The problem is, unlike Mesa's management, ours is probably too dumb to know what's good for them. It's probably going to be ugly, no pilot would be dumb enough to sign a contract with no single carrier status or some kind of scope agreement. And unless the company was just BSing last Dec with their letter to the NMB that single carrier status negs are out of the question, they won't give into our job security demands. Meanwhile, we're on the NMBs "Hot List" Thanks NMB!!! :o

Foxcow
04-23-2010, 05:23 PM
If I understand the procedure correctly, when we are released for self help, "we" means labor and management. They could lock us out or find replacements for us if we decided to go on strike.

vaporlock1215
04-23-2010, 06:35 PM
Maybe that is why we aren't recalling- they plan on giving our flying away when they get the chance. I'm told we are way understaffed, average lines are 87 hours, and guys are leaving left and right.

Positive_Rate
04-23-2010, 06:51 PM
A couple just got hired with Virgin and Citrus, too.

Great Cornholio
04-23-2010, 07:40 PM
If I understand the procedure correctly, when we are released for self help, "we" means labor and management. They could lock us out or find replacements for us if we decided to go on strike.

That is true. After the 30 day cooling off period each side is allowed to do what ever they want. Pilots don't have to go on a full on strike. Could just fly the line like nothing happened, or even just fly mon-fri 9 to 5. But in all honesty the full on strike is the most used option. At the same time the company can do what ever they want. Put locks and chains on the crew room doors, hire replacement pilots, decide to close up shop for good, etc.

After the 30 day cooling off period is basically the only time that the pilot group has the upper hand. A strike will take effect immedatley and start causing damage to the company. The company would have to find the pilots and then train them if they wanted to replace a pilot group. That takes weeks at a bare minimum.

Copperhed51
04-23-2010, 11:51 PM
If you ask me, the company's plan is to stall long enough that GoJet becomes self sustaining and all the leased aircraft at TSA can be gotten rid of. Once the pilot group is released, it won't matter to the company because TSA will hardly be a liability for Hulas anymore. He will just close up shop and GoJet will be his new cash cow. In my opinion, it is a race between getting released and Hulas dumping enough stuff that he doesn't care if we strike. I echo the "thanks NMB" sentiment. They have completely screwed us.

Purpleanga
04-24-2010, 12:33 AM
If you ask me, the company's plan is to stall long enough that GoJet becomes self sustaining and all the leased aircraft at TSA can be gotten rid of.

Everyone is saying that a strike or a TA will happen this year. I believe Gojet is still a few years away from being self sustaining and the current ERJ contract is still very valuable.

BUT, I wonder if they still have enough time to shrink TSA before we're released so that they can claim we're no longer the majority operation, then get rid of our union and force us to transfer to GJ or worse. Look at what happened in 2005, anything is possible with this management.

I guess my original question was does anybody think management has anything up their sleeve or are they just simply stalling until they have to sign the new TA? I'm hoping it's the latter.

minimwage4
04-25-2010, 09:18 AM
They will fold like a cheap suit, at the last hour. Management wants to make things look like we are not worth it. As others have said, the ball is in the NMBs court barring some miracle the company does want to end this.

Salukipilot4590
04-27-2010, 04:36 PM
Man I've been out of the loop for a while.

Purpleanga
04-28-2010, 09:10 AM
Salukipilot, I don't really know what's more sad, that I still care about TSA even into my second year of furlough or that I still care about TSA even into my second year of furlough. Help me out!

DryMotorBoatin
04-28-2010, 02:14 PM
im right there with you. i suppose i still like watching the carnage although i feel sorry for the guys still there. theyre the real heros.

Salukipilot4590
04-28-2010, 11:58 PM
Salukipilot, I don't really know what's more sad, that I still care about TSA even into my second year of furlough or that I still care about TSA even into my second year of furlough. Help me out!

im right there with you. i suppose i still like watching the carnage although i feel sorry for the guys still there. theyre the real heros.

It's like we were forcefully ejected and are now watching the jet crash while under canopy.



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