Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Compass


caboarder2001
12-07-2009, 08:57 AM
So I was looking at Pilot Jobs and I was looking at the Compass page and it said that everyone gets typed in the ERJ-175, is that a true type rating or the "sic type" that most regionals give which mean nothing at all?

Also it said that once you have been with compass for 30 months, and are a captain you have the right to flow through to mainline. Has anyone done that yet? It seems like a good idea on paper, but for some reason I think its only on paper.

http://www.pilotjobs.com/airline/compass.html


johnso29
12-07-2009, 09:04 AM
Yes, it's an actual PIC type. That's why ATP mins are required.

No one has flowed up to Mainline yet, because when NWA was hiring no one met the requirements to do so.

LoydeChrismas
12-07-2009, 09:11 AM
Currently right now we have about 20 that are eligable to flow with more each month hitting the 30 month mark. by spring we should have around 100 or more guys ready to flow.

currently Delta took, I think around 9 guys in that flow agreement with mesaba so we have seen that the flow agreements are working wich is encouraging.:)


blastoff
12-07-2009, 10:50 AM
Yes, it's an actual PIC type. That's why ATP mins are required.

No one has flowed up to Mainline yet, because when NWA was hiring no one met the requirements to do so.

You don't need an ATP for a PIC type. Many pilots at the Commercial level have PIC types...just need to be an ATP to use it in 121.

UnlimitedAkro
12-07-2009, 11:00 AM
You don't need an ATP for a PIC type. Many pilots at the Commercial level have PIC types...just need to be an ATP to use it in 121.

All that matters is you need to meet ATP mins to get hired at Compass per the contract. New hires get a PIC 170/190 type rating AND an ATP if they do not already have their ATP rating.

wmuflyboy
12-07-2009, 01:52 PM
is Compass going to be one of those companies that we will see continually hiring because their minimums are so high?? is it a good company go to if you do have ATP mins??

dojetdriver
12-07-2009, 02:04 PM
You don't need an ATP for a PIC type. Many pilots at the Commercial level have PIC types...just need to be an ATP to use it in 121.

I don't know why so many pilots have a hard time understanding this concept. What do you got, 3 or 4 PIC type ratings before you evan had ATP mins?

Edited to add;

I could see CPZ doing it a while back for the purposes of when the upgrade was relatively quick, and YES, it's good to require a newhire to have an ATP, or ATP mins. Doesn't change the fact that a PIC type rating issuance ISN'T dependent on possessing an ATP, nor doing doing the ATP while on the type ride.

cruiseclimb
12-07-2009, 02:08 PM
My buddy with 6,000 hours, multiple types, and an internal rec has been waiting for about 4 months to get a call from Compass... Good luck (not sarcasm).. I think things will start to improve soon, but our other friend at Delta told us that they are about 1,000 pilots fat right now, but don't want to furlough. Haven't confirmed this or not with other friends there. Another thing to consider, I'm not sure how the rules work, but the Delta guys have heard they can flow down to Compass if they do furlough. I'm not sure if they have to come from Compass or not.. Maybe someone in the know can shed some light on that.

blastoff
12-07-2009, 02:19 PM
I don't know why so many pilots have a hard time understanding this concept. What do you got, 3 or 4 PIC type ratings before you evan had ATP mins?


Yup, 3 types...but I guess I'm just an Aero nerd for arguing it. But the type is 100% not why CPZ requires ATP mins.

johnso29
12-07-2009, 02:27 PM
My buddy with 6,000 hours, multiple types, and an internal rec has been waiting for about 4 months to get a call from Compass... Good luck (not sarcasm).. I think things will start to improve soon, but our other friend at Delta told us that they are about 1,000 pilots fat right now, but don't want to furlough. Haven't confirmed this or not with other friends there. Another thing to consider, I'm not sure how the rules work, but the Delta guys have heard they can flow down to Compass if they do furlough. I'm not sure if they have to come from Compass or not.. Maybe someone in the know can shed some light on that.

As of now, if Delta furloughed the entire Compass pilot group could be flushed(except for maybe some managment pilots, I'm not sure) The reason this is possible is because when NWA was hiring not a single Compass pilot was eligible to flow up. In order for a Compass pilot to be protected from & senior to all flowbacks is for said pilot to bypass his/her one & only opportunity to flow to Mainline. Since no one has done so, no one is protected from flow backs.

That being said, Delta is overstaffed, but not nearly 1000 pilots overstaffed. As a matter of fact, Delta is closer to HIRING then we are furloughing.

johnso29
12-07-2009, 02:29 PM
You don't need an ATP for a PIC type. Many pilots at the Commercial level have PIC types...just need to be an ATP to use it in 121.

I don't know why so many pilots have a hard time understanding this concept. What do you got, 3 or 4 PIC type ratings before you evan had ATP mins?

Edited to add;

I could see CPZ doing it a while back for the purposes of when the upgrade was relatively quick, and YES, it's good to require a newhire to have an ATP, or ATP mins. Doesn't change the fact that a PIC type rating issuance ISN'T dependent on possessing an ATP, nor doing doing the ATP while on the type ride.

Thanks for correcting my mistake.

Window_Seat
12-07-2009, 02:31 PM
I don't get why everyone thinks Compass is so great. I make more flying my 50 seater around than the mini Airbus that they operate. I guess people don't really care what they make now as long as they are promised they can flow up and fly a 747 someday. I love to fly and I would do it for free.

JungleBus
12-07-2009, 02:47 PM
Eh 2 out of 10. I'm sure your flamebaiting skills will improve with time.

P-3Bubba
12-07-2009, 02:54 PM
Eh 2 out of 10. I'm sure your flamebaiting skills will improve with time.

2 of 10 is a weak effort. Creating a flamebait grading scale is priceless.

UnlimitedAkro
12-07-2009, 03:05 PM
I don't get why everyone thinks Compass is so great. I make more flying my 50 seater around than the mini Airbus that they operate. I guess people don't really care what they make now as long as they are promised they can flow up and fly a 747 someday. I love to fly and I would do it for free.

Actually at the interview now, the only 2 questions they ask are:

"do you really want to fly a 747 someday?"

and

"do you think our neat mini airbus is better than the really cool 50 seater at your last airline that furloughed you"

...oh wait... think about the last one really hard there....

By the way, I give him a 1 out of 10 for zero creativity.

Window_Seat
12-07-2009, 03:22 PM
big regional jets over there for not a lot of money, that's all i'm saying. it costs the company nothing to dangle for the flow through so you'll give them a few years of very cheap labor. Compass is directly replacing the DC-9, arguably more than other regionals out there. I sat next to a Compass pilot commuting about 10 months ago and he's was going on and on about how delta was going to make them park with the rest of the RJ's in msp, kinda like he was above the rest of us. I know a few great guys over there but this guy was a piece of work. There are better $24,000 a year jobs out there. Trying for more than 2/10 this time, i though that was a bit low:)

saxman66
12-07-2009, 04:39 PM
Also keep in mind that if Delta furloughs they have to get rid of 76 seaters. I don't think Delta wants to get rid 76 seaters because they make money. I don't know of the ratio but I think for each X amount DL furloughs, another 76 seater has to get parked. Maybe someone that actually works for DL and knows their scope will chime in.

andy171773
12-07-2009, 07:10 PM
Also keep in mind that if Delta furloughs they have to get rid of 76 seaters. I don't think Delta wants to get rid 76 seaters because they make money. I don't know of the ratio but I think for each X amount DL furloughs, another 76 seater has to get parked. Maybe someone that actually works for DL and knows their scope will chime in.

not parked..but i'm pretty sure they have to take out 6 seats to make em 70 seaters

caboarder2001
12-07-2009, 08:02 PM
Also keep in mind that if Delta furloughs they have to get rid of 76 seaters. I don't think Delta wants to get rid 76 seaters because they make money. I don't know of the ratio but I think for each X amount DL furloughs, another 76 seater has to get parked.

So if Delta furloughs, then Compass has to park some of their 175's? What is the purpose of that? So that Delta can take that route back from CPZ and bring back their furloughs quicker or what?

johnso29
12-07-2009, 08:08 PM
So if Delta furloughs, then Compass has to park some of their 175's? What is the purpose of that? So that Delta can take that route back from CPZ and bring back their furloughs quicker or what?

Converting 76 seaters to 70 seaters forces the RJ to be a single class. In the 76 seat configuration, both 1st class and coach class are available allowing DAL to offer a premium product on an RJ. It's something that is very valuable to DAL, and is why DALPA worked this into the No Furlough clause.

80ktsClamp
12-07-2009, 09:42 PM
If anyone off the current list is furloughed, then something like 20 76-seaters will get converted to 70 seats the day the first guy hits the streets.

If anyone hired pre 9/11 (around 350 pilots from the bottom) gets furloughed, then all 76 seaters are permanently converted to 70 and a number get parked.

G2TT
12-08-2009, 06:47 AM
big regional jets over there for not a lot of money, that's all i'm saying. it costs the company nothing to dangle for the flow through so you'll give them a few years of very cheap labor. Compass is directly replacing the DC-9, arguably more than other regionals out there. I sat next to a Compass pilot commuting about 10 months ago and he's was going on and on about how delta was going to make them park with the rest of the RJ's in msp, kinda like he was above the rest of us. I know a few great guys over there but this guy was a piece of work. There are better $24,000 a year jobs out there. Trying for more than 2/10 this time, i though that was a bit low:)

Big regional jets for not a lot of money. This isn't a compass problem, its a Mesaba, Pinnacle, Republic, Shuttle, Mesa, Skywest (isn't this where you are at?), ASA, Comair, and anyone else flying a big RJ problem.

As far as replacing DC9 flying, maybe. It can also be argued that Compass is directly responsible for Delta NOT furloughing so far.

caboarder2001
12-08-2009, 10:15 AM
Converting 76 seaters to 70 seaters forces the RJ to be a single class. In the 76 seat configuration, both 1st class and coach class are available allowing DAL to offer a premium product on an RJ. It's something that is very valuable to DAL, and is why DALPA worked this into the No Furlough clause.
Not to be retarded, but I don't get it. How does DAL help their furloughs by making CPZ aircraft 70 seaters?

RiddleEagle18
12-08-2009, 10:50 AM
It removes revenue potential from the company so that it is a huge deterent. Better to just keep the delta guys overstaffed and suck up that cost than remove revenue seats.

andy171773
12-08-2009, 10:55 AM
It removes revenue potential from the company so that it is a huge deterent. Better to just keep the delta guys overstaffed and suck up that cost than remove revenue seats.

Good point, it's a huge revenue deterrent. We all know the money is in the business traveler...no more first class if they go to 70 seats.

Also, the cost associated with removing seats and reconfiguring the airplanes should give Delta pause before furloughing a few pilots.

saab2000
12-08-2009, 11:13 AM
For those who are skeptical about Compass there could be many reasons why someone may wish to go there. I was twice offered a spot there and should maybe have gone but was scared off by the prospect of the big paycut and seniority hit I would have taken.

But I would have been based where I like to be (in the Midwest, probably able to get MSP) and would have overnighted a lot where I currently live (GRR) and that combo made the place very, very attractive.

But for me I decided I couldn't justify the pay hit and the seniority hit at a time when the industry is in pretty rough shape.

But many folks who go to various companies have there own reasons and I can tell you that I have had a very positive experience interviewing with them and riding on Compass airplanes. They seem like a pretty good group of folks there.

80ktsClamp
12-08-2009, 02:02 PM
Good point, it's a huge revenue deterrent. We all know the money is in the business traveler...no more first class if they go to 70 seats.

Also, the cost associated with removing seats and reconfiguring the airplanes should give Delta pause before furloughing a few pilots.


With the cost of typing pilots in the E170 and such with the flowdown, plus pulling seats....furloughees have to be anticipated to be on the street for 2-3 years for it to be cost effective.

That plus DAL wanting to be in a position to snap up growth in a short period of time with the recovering economy is why you havent seen any furloughs.

PCLCREW
12-08-2009, 06:37 PM
big regional jets over there for not a lot of money, that's all i'm saying. it costs the company nothing to dangle for the flow through so you'll give them a few years of very cheap labor. Compass is directly replacing the DC-9, arguably more than other regionals out there. I sat next to a Compass pilot commuting about 10 months ago and he's was going on and on about how delta was going to make them park with the rest of the RJ's in msp, kinda like he was above the rest of us. I know a few great guys over there but this guy was a piece of work. There are better $24,000 a year jobs out there. Trying for more than 2/10 this time, i though that was a bit low:)

This guy must be making the rounds... I was on a DHD from DTW to LGA and there was a Compass FO a row ahead of me.
The guy next to him points at a CRJ2 and says "man I hate riding in those planes the seats are so cramped, which plane do you fly?"
Compass FO: Oh I fly the big ones, not those regional jets.
I almost reached over the seat to smack the guy, but he was much bigger then me, and would have kicked my [email protected]@...
99% of the Compass guys I have run into are good folks, but this idiot was just too much... he kept going on and on but I wont keep going with this.

aviatorpr
12-08-2009, 06:46 PM
This guy must be making the rounds... I was on a DHD from DTW to LGA and there was a Compass FO a row ahead of me.
The guy next to him points at a CRJ2 and says "man I hate riding in those planes the seats are so cramped, which plane do you fly?"
Compass FO: Oh I fly the big ones, not those regional jets.
I almost reached over the seat to smack the guy, but he was much bigger then me, and would have kicked my [email protected]@...
99% of the Compass guys I have run into are good folks, but this idiot was just too much... he kept going on and on but I wont keep going with this.

I heard an ATC controller tell an aircraft to follow a Compass "Regional Jet" to the runway, the Compass guy comes on and says "We're not a regional jet" and then someone comes on and says, "Replacement Jet".....boom roasted

caboarder2001
12-08-2009, 07:45 PM
I heard an ATC controller tell an aircraft to follow a Compass "Regional Jet" to the runway, the Compass guy comes on and says "We're not a regional jet" and then someone comes on and says, "Replacement Jet".....boom roasted

Ground in ORD told someone to follow the "Embraer 170" and the pilot replied "Roger, we'll follow the wanna be big boy plane", then when ground immediately gave her next set of instructions she was laughing.

JungleBus
12-08-2009, 08:43 PM
While I get that the general drift of the last few post is that certain Compass pilots are apparently concerned about the size of their talliwhackers and compensate by boasting about the size of their plane, I gotta ask...

Do any of *you* consider the Embraer 175 to be a regional jet? I certainly don't. It belongs at mainline. I don't say that for my own edification, I derive no pleasure from the fact that I'm flying it at a crappy "regional" airline. Just saying that I don't think we should buy into the labels that management has concocted for their own purposes simply to take a few cocky a-holes down a peg or two.

Edit: Reread the posts I was replying to and nobody really said anything about it being an RJ other than in the context of a quote. So don't take my post as a reproof, but more of a general comment on where most Compass guys are coming from on the RJ label.

saab2000
12-09-2009, 03:00 AM
While I get that the general drift of the last few post is that certain Compass pilots are apparently concerned about the size of their talliwhackers and compensate by boasting about the size of their plane, I gotta ask...

Do any of *you* consider the Embraer 175 to be a regional jet? I certainly don't. It belongs at mainline. I don't say that for my own edification, I derive no pleasure from the fact that I'm flying it at a crappy "regional" airline. Just saying that I don't think we should buy into the labels that management has concocted for their own purposes simply to take a few cocky a-holes down a peg or two.

Edit: Reread the posts I was replying to and nobody really said anything about it being an RJ other than in the context of a quote. So don't take my post as a reproof, but more of a general comment on where most Compass guys are coming from on the RJ label.

I don't know what a 'regional' jet is. Still trying to figure that one out. I would bet that half the routes I fly would have been flown on a DC-9 or 737 15 years ago.

The concept is brilliant marketing by airlines and aircraft manufacturers and is now simply accepted and used to keep costs down. Ironic because the 50-seat 'regional' jet probably has the highest CASM of any jet in the skies.

The EMB-170/175 and 190/195 are certainly not RJs. They're just marketed as such but are absolutely mainline size and capable aircraft. The 175s that Republic flies have 86 seats on them! And fly routes which are several hours long. Not bashing Republic. But they're not RJs.

RJSAviator76
12-09-2009, 04:19 AM
The EMB-170/175 and 190/195 are certainly not RJs. They're just marketed as such by are absolutely mainline size and capable aircraft. The 175s that Republic flies have 86 seats on them! And fly routes which are several hours long. Not bashing Republic. But they're not RJs.

Sadly, my type rating says ERJ-170, ERJ-190... ;)

Furthermore, I don't care what anyone says... if an FO qualifies for food stamps if he has any family, and the captain makes under 70k a year flying for a scheduled airline - in my book, they're flying a regional jet.

Justdoinmyjob
12-09-2009, 04:47 AM
Furthermore, I don't care what anyone says... if an FO qualifies for food stamps if he has any family, and the captain makes under 70k a year flying for a scheduled airline - in my book, they're flying a regional jet.


SO by that logic, if Low Cost Airline were to pay their pilots that amount
to fly 757s, would you then consider the 757 a regional jet?

Pay has nothing to do with whether it's a regional jet or not. That is another topic completely.

Maybe in the beginning, you could say the word applied to the 50 seater, but the airlines started flying the plane well outside of the original mission profile and changed it for better or worse. Now it is a term applied to airplanes by management in order to manage pilot expectations of pay and QOL. Make them think they are "second class employees," and you can get away with treating them like dirt.

evilboy
12-09-2009, 08:41 AM
Ok, I must add my 2 cents to this conversation...hell, my 25 cents!.

A REGIONAL AirLINE is a somewhat small to mid size operator (amount of planes, capacity in those planes, and some might say total yearly revenue), that concentrates mainly in a REGION. Their original intent as part of their operations is/was to serve a specific REGION. Comair's is/was the northeastern region, ASA's the southeast, Skywest's the central/west, etc., etc., etc.
Now some of them thru the years have grown to EXPAND their REGION due to better/bigger/modern aircrafts (Brasilias vs 700/900, Saabs vs ERJ, etc.), but the intent still remains the same. They still serve a REGION, although that my be a larger one at this point (i.e. Republic, Compass, actually pretty much all of them). But one thing still remains constant, the serve a REGION. You may have an occassional crossing to Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, but they don't cross the pond on any direction with 150+ passengers. They are limited and/or concentrated in the lower 48.

Now, a REGIONAL AirLINER/AIRCRAFT is anything these companies fly. Whether a CRJ (Cannadair REGIONAL Jet) or ERJ (Embraer REGIONAL jet), and pretty soon the MRJ (Mitsubishi REGIONAL Jet), they are REGIONAL Jets. And as far as MY understanding, and MY OWN concerns, until any of them are used directly by ANY MAINLINE company to carry passengers on regular basis to points outside this country of more than 3 or 4 hours with enough passengers to REQUIRE at least 3 Flight Attendants, they will remain REGIONAL AIRCRAFTS.
I'm sure some of you by now are thinking the 190s at JetBlue and USair. Good point. They are NOT the main equipment for the routes they SOMETIMES are used for. Those companies use them as relievers (over/under capacity), seasonal (high/low season), and for no longer than 3 hours legs to foreign/outside destination.
Now, please feel free to contradict me with a good argument, preferably with some opposing evidence, and as always in a nice manner.
Thank you and have a great day!.

Ftrooppilot
12-09-2009, 02:13 PM
Characteristics of Regional Airlines

Regional air taxi airline (carriers) fly and operate a fleet of aircraft with up to 9 passenger seats[2] (http://rgl.faa.gov/REGULATORY_AND_GUIDANCE_LIBRARY/RGFAR.NSF/0/85fc1193b5abfcba852566ef006aa867!OpenDocument&Click=), and may or may not operate with its own airline brand or identity. Most usually aircraft are routed via the point-to-point (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Point-to-point_transit) on-demand or limited schedule transit models of aircraft routing.[3] (http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:Iw4vRGGtGVoJ:www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airline_certification/media/DOTEATHY.doc+dot+faa+definition+of+air+taxi&cd=7&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)
Regional commuter airline (carriers) fly and operate with their own ICAO or IATA codes, their own call sign, with a fleet of aircraft with 9-19 passenger seats, no flight attendant, non-stand up cabins, and function with or without an individual identity and brand, even though an individually operating certificated regional airline company. In many instances, the regional commuter airline may be owed by a conglomerate (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Conglomerate_(company)) airline holding company (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Holding_company), or may be a completely independent and individually owned regional commuter airline company. Most usually aircraft are routed via the point-to-point (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Point-to-point_transit) transit models of aircraft routing.[4] (http://www.atwonline.com/channels/airlineFocus/article.html?articleID=1160)
Regional feeder-airline (carriers) fly and operate with their own ICAO or IATA codes, their own call sign, and fly and operate aircraft with 9-99 passenger seats, without an individual identity or brand, even though an individually operating certificated regional feeder airline company. In many instances, the regional feeder airline may be owed by a conglomerate airline holding company, or may be a completely independent and individually owned regional feeder airline company. Most usually aircraft are routed via the hub-and-spoke model (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Spoke-hub_distribution_paradigm) of aircraft routing.[5] (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/regional-turboprop.htm)
Regional airline carriers are federally operating certificated airlines which operate their own fleet of aircraft with their own brand, ICAO or IATA code, and their own call sign, upon a fleet of aircraft with 9-99 seats and always include at least one fleet of aircraft which requires a flight attendant (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Flight_attendant). Typically aircraft are routed upon both the hub-and-spoke (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Spoke-hub_distribution_paradigm) and the point-to-point transit (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Point-to-point_transit) models of aircraft routing.[6] (http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/domav/regjets.pdf)
Airline carriers operate their own fleet of aircraft with their own brand and identity, ICAO or IATA code, and their own call sign. Federally operating certificated regional airlines[7] (http://www.airlines.org/products/AirlineHandbookCh3.htm) are considered airlines.
Major airline carriers (http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/wiki/Major_carrier) operate their own fleet of aircraft with their own brand and identity, ICAO or IATA code, their own call sign, and operate at least one fleet of aircraft with more than 99 passengers upon their federal operating certificate. Major airlines have revenues greater than $1 billion[8] (http://www.airlines.org/products/AirlineHandbookCh3.htm) U.S. dollars in revenue during a fiscal year. Regional airlines are never considered major airlines although in many instances, the regional airline may be owed by a conglomerate airline holding company, and have revenues greater than $1 billion U.S. dollars in revenue during a fiscal year.[9] (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/05/28/327092/us-pilot-scop)[[10] (http://www.raa.org/airlines/directory?page=3&size=10&sortby=company_name&sortdir=ASC)



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1