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View Full Version : 777 payrates


FedElta
01-28-2010, 05:09 AM
Just a point for your negotiaing committee : The " D " 777 payrates for contract C2K (2000) were 319.61/12-yr Cap, and 218.29/ 12-yr fo.

We all know that these payrates did NOT cause the slide into BK, but they were in place apprx 10 years ago.

4a2b might not suck quite as badly with a proper payrate. Good luck on your next contract.

Regards,
BG


Gunter
01-28-2010, 05:12 AM
FedElta,

Those going to the 777 this year won't even feel 4a2b. I'm sure some don't even know what it is.

Our 757 crewmembers, no 4a2b there, get paid more than a lower half of the list widebody crewmember.

FedElta
01-28-2010, 05:28 AM
Hey Gunter,
I'm only an outsider , looking in. My hope is that your union will close the contractual loopholes that have allowed the uneven application of 4a2b....new contract coming, right?

My personal experience in this industry is that We are never as clever as They. The payrate is the only thing that They can't outsmart us on.

If you are able to negotiate the proper payrate on the 777, it should drag the other equipment payrates upward as well. B757 paid at narrow body rates?.....not so good. +1 for PC and the boys.

Best of luck,
BG


Gunter
01-28-2010, 05:53 AM
I appreciate the good natured discussion and honest point of view.

The fact is there is no "sting" to be taken out of 4a2b for those on or going to the 777 or 757. That's what I was addressing. Higher pay rates for them may be "industry standard" bargaining technique but it is seldom executed in such junior pilot unfriendly way. Thank you management and DW.

Many have tried to sell me on the trickle down theory over the years. Kinda funny how that is both a Republican and an ALPA slogan. Guess that's why senior ALPA members have trouble giving support to the Democratic party. Union member but conservative. I've got mine but don't want to share. But that is a different, non-APC, discussion.

Somehow Bernie Madoff's picture pops into view and the small hairs stand up on my neck when I hear, "all boats will rise with the tide."

parks31
01-28-2010, 05:53 AM
FedElta,

Those going to the 777 this year won't even feel 4a2b. I'm sure some don't even know what it is.

Our 757 crewmembers, no 4a2b there, get paid more than a lower half of the list widebody crewmember.

Not all people going to the 777 are going by choice. I have been at 55ch or so since 4a2b and now am going backwards in seat and payrate...

FDXLAG
01-28-2010, 05:57 AM
Hey Gunter,
I'm only an outsider , looking in. My hope is that your union will close the contractual loopholes that have allowed the uneven application of 4a2b....new contract coming, right?

My personal experience in this industry is that We are never as clever as They. The payrate is the only thing that They can't outsmart us on.

If you are able to negotiate the proper payrate on the 777, it should drag the other equipment payrates upward as well. B757 paid at narrow body rates?.....not so good. +1 for PC and the boys.

Best of luck,
BG

Not to be hyper critical but I don't think so. If we pay our CEOs more that will just drag everyone else pay up higher right? We already traded enough to get A 380 rates I aint willing to trade anything to get 777 rates.

FedElta
01-28-2010, 06:10 AM
Hey Lag,

I take your point. Regardless of the outcome of current payrate arbitration, wouldn't contract time be the correct time to fix payrate disparities ?

I only posted the D 777 rates as a bar......if it is of any interest/ value I can post rates for other similar equipment......or you can peruse it over on the Major forum, under "latest & greatest ."

Regards,:)
BG

Gunter
01-28-2010, 06:12 AM
Not all people going to the 777 are going by choice. I have been at 55ch or so since 4a2b and now am going backwards in seat and payrate...

Not trying to minimize your loss. It is significant and an important consideration. As is all pay loss during this fiasco that was caused by retro and improper 4a2b implementation. Your 55 CH has been partly caused by 75+ CH lines on the 757 and 777 due to too much flying being shifted to soon.

I'm assuming you chose 777 instead of MD11 or A300 and the 777 was the least disruptive for pay purposes.

Importantly, if we didn't have 4a2b you would have been excessed a long time ago.

FDXLAG
01-28-2010, 06:38 AM
Hey Lag,

I take your point. Regardless of the outcome of current payrate arbitration, wouldn't contract time be the correct time to fix payrate disparities ?

I only posted the D 777 rates as a bar......if it is of any interest/ value I can post rates for other similar equipment......or you can peruse it over on the Major forum, under "latest & greatest ."

Regards,:)
BG

Nope I understand. I think we ought to have 8 payrates or 1 payrate. I wouldn't mind hearing the NC thoughts on the subject or a MEC members. Seems like something we should have a majority opinion on before they hit the table. Especially since a lot of Wide Body Airbi pilots may be looking at Narrow body rates in the not to distant future.

Chilitime
01-28-2010, 07:55 AM
Especially since a lot of Wide Body Airbi pilots may be looking at Narrow body rates in the not to distant future.


What do you mean by that one? Just guys getting bumped, or is the new plan to get rid of the bus?

FDXLAG
01-28-2010, 10:01 AM
What do you mean by that one? Just guys getting bumped, or is the new plan to get rid of the bus?

A lot of both maybe.

parks31
01-28-2010, 10:38 AM
Not trying to minimize your loss. It is significant and an important consideration. As is all pay loss during this fiasco that was caused by retro and improper 4a2b implementation. Your 55 CH has been partly caused by 75+ CH lines on the 757 and 777 due to too much flying being shifted to soon.

I'm assuming you chose 777 instead of MD11 or A300 and the 777 was the least disruptive for pay purposes.

Importantly, if we didn't have 4a2b you would have been excessed a long time ago.

I chose the 777 simply becaused it allowed me 6 more months at Captain pay than any other aircraft. If a bid comes out soon I will bid another. It is simply a financial decision.

Lloyd Christmas
01-28-2010, 11:27 AM
Who ever believes that a higher pay rate will ever be negotiated for the 777 is smoking crack. What incentive does the company or the arbitrator have in providing this.

It is the most senior airplane on the property and for the most part have plenty more lined up to fly it. If crew members were serious about flying it for a higher pay rate, it wouldn't be bid or it would sit idle on the ramp until a pay rate is negotiated.

FR8Hauler
01-28-2010, 01:08 PM
Who ever believes that a higher pay rate will ever be negotiated for the 777 is smoking crack. What incentive does the company or the arbitrator have in providing this.

It is the most senior airplane on the property and for the most part have plenty more lined up to fly it. If crew members were serious about flying it for a higher pay rate, it wouldn't be bid or it would sit idle on the ramp until a pay rate is negotiated.

Well said. I don't think I see too many people jumping on that bandwagon. Guys are happily bidding it for the current pay. We better not give anything away during negotiations to raise the payrate at this point.

Gunter
01-28-2010, 01:15 PM
Of course it is suitable to ask for a 777 pay rate.

But it should be a package deal that should include a stop to the madness going on now.

trashhauler
01-28-2010, 01:37 PM
Who ever believes that a higher pay rate will ever be negotiated for the 777 is smoking crack. What incentive does the company or the arbitrator have in providing this.

It is the most senior airplane on the property and for the most part have plenty more lined up to fly it. If crew members were serious about flying it for a higher pay rate, it wouldn't be bid or it would sit idle on the ramp until a pay rate is negotiated.

This is a very shortsighted view. There will be more 777 on our ramp in the future, more then you think. We will all benefit by having a higher pay rate for the 777. The arbitrator doesn't need an incentive, his job is to arbitrate. Although I agree that nobody should have bid it until we got a pay rate, it is what it is and shooting ourselves in the foot to punish the guys who did bid it, is not in our best interest. You will be flying a 777 sooner then you think, especially when the passenger conversions start. Just my opinion of course.

Commando
01-28-2010, 03:05 PM
Can anyone see the Forest through thr Trees?

You better bet your " " that having a higher rate for the 777 not only helps you guys on property, but ALL your peers all over the world. It is critical the likes of UPS, and FDX keep the bar High for the good of the profession. Because the ATA at any chance try to knock it down, permanently.

FDXLAG
01-28-2010, 03:12 PM
Ok I will agree I am shortsighted on this if one of you long sighted guys will tell me who should give up money to get a 777 payrate. Should it be the Bus guys? How about those 727 guys?

We have already negotiated our payrates, if the arbitrator and the system board rule against us I am not willing to give up anything to go from 2 payrates to 3 payrates. But I can appreciate you long sighted guys wanting to hose me.

FR8Hauler
01-28-2010, 03:23 PM
Ok I will agree I am shortsighted on this if one of you long sighted guys will tell me who should give up money to get a 777 payrate. Should it be the Bus guys? How about those 727 guys?

We have already negotiated our payrates, if the arbitrator and the system board rule against us I am not willing to give up anything to go from 2 payrates to 3 payrates. But I can appreciate you long sighted guys wanting to hose me.

Now that is funny!:)

Gunter
01-28-2010, 03:55 PM
Now that is funny!:)


funny like a heart attack. Ha ha

FedElta
01-28-2010, 04:13 PM
Guys,

Who says you have to give up anything to get a decent 777 payrate. If you look at your executive compensation, the "pie" has room to grow to accomodate the increase.

It would have been better if the DW's of the world had not bid it, but it's still not a moot point.

Pull together boys,
BG

FR8Hauler
01-28-2010, 04:14 PM
funny like a heart attack. Ha ha

Come on now lighten up about it. Why in the world should we give anything away in negotiations for a pay rate that already had been negotiated on the A-380. Who knows what we gave away for that? It is being arbitrated and I for one am not willing to give anything else up to change it if the arbitrator tells us to pound sand. Don't get me wrong, I think it would be great if they say it should pay the same as the A-380.

Gunter
01-28-2010, 04:27 PM
Guys,

Who says you have to give up anything to get a decent 777 payrate. If you look at your executive compensation, the "pie" has room to grow to accomodate the increase.

It would have been better if the DW's of the world had not bid it, but it's still not a moot point.

Pull together boys,
BG

It would be good to pull together but we gave away improvements for all just to secure useless A-380 rates. That was great for the profession but not good for most of our pilots. Our history indicates a stand for big 777 rates will once again mean give backs from all.

I'm tired of folks reaching into a majority of our pockets now for things that will affect a minority group. Did you know the last contract negotiated a scheme to tax all pilots every month for old guy healthcare? That's some of the hidden money BC promised. I'm glad we fought for that one.


UPS has an even bigger pie. They hold it just out of reach and threaten to furlough as they take bites out of it.

FDXLAG
01-28-2010, 05:51 PM
Guys,

Who says you have to give up anything to get a decent 777 payrate. If you look at your executive compensation, the "pie" has room to grow to accomodate the increase.

It would have been better if the DW's of the world had not bid it, but it's still not a moot point.

Pull together boys,
BG

We will have to disagree on this. But assuming you are right and the pie is infinitely big I say we start by bringing the NB guys up to the WB rate.;) Once we do that we can negotiate a 777 rate from the ever expanding pie.

iarapilot
01-28-2010, 06:10 PM
Who ever believes that a higher pay rate will ever be negotiated for the 777 is smoking crack. What incentive does the company or the arbitrator have in providing this.

It is the most senior airplane on the property and for the most part have plenty more lined up to fly it. If crew members were serious about flying it for a higher pay rate, it wouldn't be bid or it would sit idle on the ramp until a pay rate is negotiated.

The only way to have received a higher pay rate for the 777 is if no one bid it in the first place. Period! Unfortunately, only a minority around here get that concept. And even some of them bid it. To get a higher rate now, we will have to give something up. Period period!! "We" are such a bunch of brainiacks.

MD11Fr8Dog
01-28-2010, 06:53 PM
What incentive does the company or the arbitrator have in providing this.

There should be no incentive, other than coming to a fair, impartial, equitable decision based on the facts and the persuasiveness of the opposing parties, for an arbitrator to decide for either side.

Lloyd Christmas
01-28-2010, 07:27 PM
There should be no incentive, other than coming to a fair, impartial, equitable decision based on the facts and the persuasiveness of the opposing parties, for an arbitrator to decide for either side.

Incentive might be a poor choice of words. But I believe that our argument with the arbitrator is very thin based on the excitement of those who have bid the plane under the current work rules.

Busboy
01-30-2010, 08:50 AM
How about a little strategery think here boys...Let's not misunderestimate the leverage we have.

If the arbitrator comes back with a higher rate for the 777, FDX can't fly it ULR because our contract reads A-380. So, what do we want in exchange for giving that to them?


p.s. Thx GW

FR8Hauler
01-30-2010, 09:12 AM
How about a little strategery think here boys...Let's not misunderestimate the leverage we have.

If the arbitrator comes back with a higher rate for the 777, FDX can't fly it ULR because our contract reads A-380. So, what do we want in exchange for giving that to them?


p.s. Thx GW

We give up something they give us something and so it goes on and on. Well I will tell you one thing for sure, I AM NOT GIVING BACK THE SCOOBY SNACKS!

FDXLAG
01-30-2010, 09:29 AM
How about a little strategery think here boys...Let's not misunderestimate the leverage we have.

If the arbitrator comes back with a higher rate for the 777, FDX can't fly it ULR because our contract reads A-380. So, what do we want in exchange for giving that to them?

What do you recommend, I think a higher pay rate for the 757. I mean eventually everyone pass through the gateway acft, not everyone will step up to the big boy.

But in all seriousness how about a cap on blg if 4A2b is in effect.

p.s. Thx GW

Why did you find another policy here that the big O criticized but then continued.;)

meatloaf
01-30-2010, 09:17 PM
Let's make this easy:

We negotiated a higher payrate in exchange for other concessions.

Nobody--exactly zero of us--got a dime of it.

The company reduced our pay instead via 4a2b.

Got it? :mad:

iarapilot
01-30-2010, 10:46 PM
Let's make this easy:

We negotiated a higher payrate in exchange for other concessions.

Nobody--exactly zero of us--got a dime of it.

The company reduced our pay instead via 4a2b.

Got it? :mad:

That sums it up nicely!

DLax85
01-31-2010, 02:44 PM
What do you recommend, I think a higher pay rate for the 757. I mean eventually everyone pass through the gateway acft, not everyone will step up to the big boy.

But in all seriousness how about a cap on blg if 4A2b is in effect...

...Double shack!!

Adlerdriver
01-31-2010, 06:29 PM
From what I understand, the companyís vision for the future is lots of 777s and 757s. Some of those 777s are going to be converted pax birds or BCFs (Boeing Converted Freighters). The max GW of those BCFs (basic -200, non-ER version) is going to be around 550,000 lb.

Thereís no way, the negotiated A-380 (1.3 million lb. max GW) rate is going to be used for a 777F (~766K max GW), never mind its little brother the BCF. It might be possible to re-negotiate a 777F specific pay rate but the BCF is just another wide body and it would be hard to justify anything other than the WB pay we all get now.

But the bottom line for me is that Iíll probably never fly either of them or if I do end up in one, it wonít be while the contract weíre negotiating this year is in force. Iím tired of wasting negotiating capital on stuff that a large majority of us will never benefit from. I really donít give a hoot if we ever get a 777 pay rate. The guys on it bid for it knowing that all they were going to get was WB pay. They squandered a huge opportunity Ė no one bids it (alah, Delta Airlines and their 777 intro) until an acceptable rate is established. So now, they can live w/ it as far as Iím concerned. I donít care if they bid it for the type rating, to prolong a training delay or just because they love helping out.
Theyíve got it now and I think most of us want QOL improvements in this next contract that have NOTHING to do w/ wasting another piece of our ďpieĒ on the second pay rate in our contract few of us will ever see. Rant Over. :mad:

Dracma
01-31-2010, 07:42 PM
"The guys on it bid for it knowing that all they were going to get was WB pay. They squandered a huge opportunity Ė no one bids it (alah, Delta Airlines and their 777 intro) until an acceptable rate is established. So now, they can live w/ it as far as Iím concerned. I donít care if they bid it for the type rating, to prolong a training delay or just because they love helping out."


Increase payrates across the board. Then we offer to delay only the 777 raise for about 2 years in exchange for widebody rates for the 757 immediately.

Laughing_Jakal
02-01-2010, 07:23 AM
For the record.....I'm not giving up scooby snacks either:D:D

They are going to have to throw a lot any contract before I vote for one that has a little black line drawn thru every mention of A-380 and replaced with 777. They may think they negotiated for ULR rules......like we thought we negotiated ULR payrates..... I think we're back to square one and they'll have to give more if they want to adjust the wording that's in the contract pertaining to the A-380, in order to fly the 777 the way they want to..

Quite frankly, I am happy the way the contract reads now. Let them spend all the money they want to buy 777f's to replace whatever airplane they want. They just have to fly them under non-ULR's until the contract is amended. I for one would be happy to see the contract we have last forever.

For those that think I'm shortsighted.....(and yes I did vocally support the contract we have now). I am flying for $0.87 an hour less now, then before the last TA was ratified. In addition, I am flying less hours. I did make a little money in the meantime.......

I am not willing to give up a damn thing in order to be cost-neutralized by the company. So....I say, we keep the same contract ad-infinitum. We keep exploiting our vacation, we keep allowing guys to retire at 60 with no penalty, they provide the healthcare (which is pretty good) we keep everything we have to date. We fly the 777 just like the MD-11, the 757 just like the 727 and everyone is happy. No ULR, no nothing.....status quo.

If they want to 4a2b us forever, (assuming we lose completely under arbitration), great!..... at least we know now and can get a second job, or pursue some other lifelong dream while working a part-time job at FedEx while maintaining the most expensive benefits in the world for part-timers.

Keep the exact same contract......If they want something......like they say in contracting.....”Kill 'em on the change order.” Trade something they want for exorbitant pay rates.



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